What’s The Problem At Manchester United?

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I'm Pro Football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins and I live for a long time with something I did not know the name of. Major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story. Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson, Brian Dawkins is not prescribed caplata luma teperon. I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added caplata, luma teperon, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplata is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplata is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplata. Learn more at caplata.com or call 888-2524-824. I see hot. You're so back. Learn more at I see hot.com. Welcome to the rest of football with me, Garylinica. Today, we're taking a deep dive into Manchester United. Another lackluster start to the season. Fans booing the team off. Continued on rest with Sir Jim Ratcliffe, the glazes still in the background, and the optimism that Michael Carrick brought to old Trafford last season feels like it's disappeared already. Joining me to discuss all this armor is the Manchester United writer for the athletic and co-host of the talk of the Devil's podcast, Laurie Whitwell. That saying that the hope that kills you was generated yet again. It's been a fairly dismal start to the campaign. Why the sudden difference do you feel to last season? I think it could be a reverting to the mean, really, because when Carrick came in, you know, I don't think anybody expected the kind of impact that he had. It was very much a emergency option in light of Ruben Hammer and Bean Sacked. So obviously Carrick massively over achieved. Got United to third was the best performing team in that period. So I think that was always a bit of a false situation for United to be in. We have preseason, the transfers are made, and actually only really he's been able to use Yuri Telemann's in terms of new signings. Okay, Andrew Santos has been there, but he's been on the bench on use last three games. So anyway, in terms of freshening up the squad from last season, it hasn't had a huge turn around, and also you've lost Benjamin Cessco to injury again. So it's been a difficult way for Carrick to start this season in terms of the selections that he's had available. Amad being injured another one, perhaps. But certainly there's some concerns around United's energy and perhaps conditioning, which feels like it's a theme so far at the start of this season. And yeah, I mean, it's certainly not acceptable as it's the United to have six points from six games so far. Bottom half of the table, I think it's the worst starting in 40 years in the Premier League. And obviously, you know, Carrick's under, perhaps more scrutiny than a normal manager in this situation would be because of his previous CV, not necessarily being the standard that you would perhaps expect of a Manchester United manager. I've watched Manchester United for a very long time. And I always thought to myself that the fans by and large have been remarkably patient over the last decade or so. Yes, they've had the complaints against the ownership we've seen that. But in terms of on the field, they've not really been hard on their own team. They're not generally booed. Have you noticed a bit of a change and a bit more lack of patience? Yeah, I mean, I'll try for the top of the game. And that did strike me as something unusual. I mean, the way you're not in play to start with was really bad. So I can understand the fans being frustrated. And there was a particular moment I wrote about this in my piece, actually, if they've let it, but I said, "Ellumman's sort of a long kick." And it just drifted out of play. And that provoked booze from the crowd 23 minutes in. It was pretty soon. It was from the fact that he'd also kicked long, I think, previously. And he'd kind of gone short very early on, and that given it a lengthy that chance that he probably should have scored. So you could see some nervousness amongst the defence. And that then permeated into the stands. But yeah, for the United Swats fans to act so acutely sharply. So soon was unusual booze at halftime, booze at full time. Why is that? Is that because social media kind of reactions and kind of that agitation, perhaps being a natural part of people's DNA, so to speak, when they go into games, is it more specific to United and the fact that they've had real issues with ticketing, synced to gym rack lifts, come in in terms of raising the prices in terms of season ticket holders, being kind of scrutinised for their practices and feeling like they're at odds with the club. Or is it just generally a kind of feeling around the club that here we are again, since the glazes have taken over. It's been obviously there's been a period of success whilst Alex Ferguson was in charge. But since he's retired, it's been a kind of cycle of sub-hope. You should touch on at the start of this show and then ultimately disappointment. And so that's the agitation that you get. Yeah, I think maybe there's a change in demographic in the crowd as well, you know, in terms of season ticket holders. Certainly they've changed where people sit, you know. So for example, behind the dugout now, it used to be people that have been there for decades really. And they've changed that because they realise that there's value to be had in those tickets. And that's more people that would comfort the day trips really. So I don't know exactly where it starts. Certainly there's a section of United funds in the strep for them that have tried to generate an atmosphere of the Red Army. And they still do that. They bring flags to the ground that they try and get the chance to go in. But I think when the football on the pitch doesn't necessarily meet those expectations, then there's people that will naturally voice that is pleasure. I think it's worth pointing out as well that we're recording this on Monday before United visit Madrid and play Atlético. So if United one for no. And there's been crowd over here, three and a half thousand, I think, funds are travelling over. So yeah, it's good away actually. One thing you do know is that Manchester United will continue to have that huge support that they have. I mean, it is still a monster of a football club. But how long can it go on for do you think, Laurie, before people start to go, well, is Manchester United still a giant of a football club? I suppose what marks out a club as being that kind of scale. I mean, you look at the crowd every week. It's a sell out at Old Trafford. That's 75,000 fans each way. That feels big to me. And I think that'll sustain. Now clearly as we go along, that kind of global success, people want to tap into because of trophies and silverware. And United haven't had the biggest prizes since to Alex Ferguson left. So, will we see a new generation of funds going for different clubs? I think certainly we've seen that me locally see sort of all the team supported. But I think because they've got that history that sustained success in the 90s and the 2000s when football blew up, that will incubate them from a lot of this issue around. I mean, I'll look at Amazon have paid a load of money to follow them for a documentary. I think it's the biggest of the paid. That'll be interesting. That sort of seems like a mark of a club that is, even if they don't succeed, there's some interest there, right? It's kind of this weird world that we live in now where football still generates eyeballs if there's, you know, not glittering success. But clearly everybody associated with the club would want United to be back challenging for the title and the Champions League. And I don't think it's something that can save for granted. You think, I mean, what they've done, obviously, over the past few years now is that they've brought in a new manager. It's not works. They've got rid of him. He's kind of always to blame. Is that now looking like the case with Michael Carrick already? I think we're too early for that personally. I haven't sent anything of that ill, I did a piece before the international break that said that wasn't on the agenda at all. Now, you know, maybe there are conversations that go on. Well, they said the same, but Amarim, didn't they? Yeah. We remember Rackliffe saying, you know, he used to do some man and three months later he was gone. I mean, that was such a weird one though, because it basically should have really been sat because of the results. And ultimately, we're sat because he had a big fallen out with the hierarchy, you know, particularly a big bust up with Jason Wilcox, the director of football. They were trying really to get him to change the formation when they'd hired him knowing that that was the formation. I mean, they would probably say that he kind of given indication in the interview process that he would be adaptable, but clearly he felt that was aligning the sand and, you know, he voiced those sort of feelings very clearly. It was coded, but not too coded. So, and I don't care if that kind of personality, well, he isn't, you know, we can see that from the press conferences that he gives. Although he is, I think showing himself a little bit more in these press conferences, certainly after the Spurs game, certainly before the match as well, I think he's sort of giving his opinion more freely and kind of showing that pedigree that he had as a player, 'cause he can't be a player at Manionade for the time that he was and not have something about your not of substance. - Do you get a flow of a lorry of what the players feel about Michael Carrick, you know, behind the scenes, the whispers, et cetera, has he got the confidence that the players still do feel? - Yeah, I think so. I think that they respect him for the intelligence that he has and the kind of way that he's trying to go about it. Now, have there been some mistakes? Clearly, then there must have been right for the United to get to this point. You know, they should be doing better than this, right? Well, I think the squad was overachieving last season. He shouldn't be as bad as this season and yeah, I think that's something that they need to work through. But I sense that there's no turning against him. You know, I don't think, you know, I think certainly previous managers you've had elements of that. Now, whether that then changes results go on and they wonder whether he's the right guy. Obviously, I guess time will tell, but for the time being right now, I certainly think that players respect him and I actually see a side of him that we don't see. I certainly think he can give players a roller king when required, so he just doesn't want to do that publicly because he feels like he should protect that kind of inner sanctum. Well, I would agree with him on that. I think there's one thing that turn players off coaches and I think that happened to him in a way. Yeah, yeah. We talked about it actually on the main podcast that went out on Monday. I mean, it's fairly obvious what's wrong with the United at the moment in midfield. They've got Yuri Taylor and I watched him for years at Leicester, wonderfully gifted technical football with a great brain and a really good pro, but he's not going to bomb around the pitch. And Cobbimano is beautiful on the ball and gifted, but he's not hugely energetic. You've got Bruno that kind of plays where he wants to play all over the place, magnificent football, although he is, he's not going to add too much in midfield defensively. So it seems to me that they're always outnumbered and they've not got players that obviously get around the pitch. So for me, I look at you nice and I think, "Well, they've got some decent players up for it." I know they've got one or two injury problems, but in large, they've got a bit of experience at the back, they've made a few two mistakes. I think the goalkeeper last season, even though he's been getting a little bit of stake, did really well. So I don't think there's a lot wrong, but that fix in the midfield was the same problem really that Ruben Amaram had in a slightly different way. He was a little bit more stubborn in it. So I think it's fixable. Yeah, I certainly think so. I mean, Belieber, I think made a real impact against Tottenham. I mean, maybe I'm getting carried away. So that's 15 minutes he did. Had they were desperate for something in the crowd as well, haven't they? Yeah, well, he looks bigger than I thought, as well as like sort of six foot looks to me. So I think that's an element that you know, they've lost Casamero who was a huge set piece threat. So replacing him, they obviously haven't really done that. Maybe Belieber can add that to his game, but yeah, I mean, Telemann's, United's approach in the window was so, you know, based on the financial picture as well that you can't ignore, you can't separate it. So Telemann's was a 35 million pound release clause. United did look at him under Eric Tedharg, even when he went to Leicester in the first place. You know, he'd even unload and then he went in the summer, then when he left on a free, even the summer before, when he was had a year left on his contracts and before he went to Villa. So, and United never actually went for it. So there was different reasons why they didn't and now they've gone for him because really, he's a quality player for sure and certainly improves the squad, but they're not the player that's going to generate them going on to then push for the title as, you know, you kind of felt like maybe they could have done if they had, you know, that kind of financial latitude having finished third. So, you know, they miss out on Sandra Tinali, who plays against United on Saturday, he gets about the pitch brilliantly. And I'm not saying there's a perfect football, but obviously, to be honest, pay 100 million pounds for him. So it's different ways that United and now approach in the Johnson market and okay, the push the bow out a little bit for Belieber, they waited a year really to get him for a knockdown fee from what they would have done. There's some of the previous. So hopefully that one really does fit the bill for, yeah, getting out of the pitch. And he's passing actually against Tottenham. I thought was really good. So that, I wonder how that's going to, you know, shake things up. Obviously, there was an order that they did it in as well. You know, they kind of, they went for Tealum and Santos first, then brought Belieber in later in the window when he picks up this ankle injury. You know, if they've done it the other way around, maybe that would have been a different complexion as well to the squad. But I agree with you, they've obviously got some quality there. I do think they've been exposed by not getting a striker to back up against Tesco. They obviously knew that was an issue over the preseason 'cause they were resting him. It's, you know, there's been a, a recurrence of sorts now. We don't know how long he's going to be out for. And boom, it was good up top. But I just think you need a proper sort of striker as an alternative Tesco. Because I think even Bruno Fernandez on Saturday was kind of going up top really. And it was actually the number 10. So clearly that's not an ideal situation to have. And so, yeah, I wonder if they'll address that in January. - As what's going on down the road with the other Manchester Club kind of deflected it a little bit, taking the heat off the fraction? - Yeah, I think it has. I mean, when you think about what the International Break felt like when United were 1-0 down to full them, the final game before ultimately they got an equalizer, couldn't you? And I think they probably deserved it in that game. But, you know, still there was sort of questions around Carrick and what's happening at United and then for City. The case to kind of have its verdict come out during the International Break and all eyes beyond that. And then United can kind of say, I mean, even Carrick was asked about it. And Carrick thought was quite interesting on that saying, you can't take those moments back, you know, the titles that we could have won, you know, basically are done now. So that allowed him to kind of speak on those terms, whereas perhaps if it, if that hadn't have happened, it would have all been what you feel about your job, have you had conversation with the hierarchy? I mean, he was a little bit asked about that, but it certainly has shifted the narrative. And I mean, it was a long, the longest international break we've ever had. And you know, for us as journalists, it was great to kind of get into all the weeds of the issues, really fascinating stuff. But I think for United, it did sort of shift the perspective and probably grateful for that. - Do you think it kind of epitomizes what's going on Manchester United that they're struggling to keep even their young talent? Obviously the story of JJ Gabriel was pretty remarkable. You could never have thought of that happening kind of a decade or so ago. - Yeah, it's a funny one, the JJ Gabriel one, because he's such a special talent. So there's definitely two sides. United will say that they did all they could to, you know, keep him at the club and making feel wanted and kind of giving him a special treatment. And certainly it's a 15 year old. So well, it's now 16 actually, but at the time, you know, going on preseason tour and kind of being around the first team picture. But if from, you know, his perspective, people around him's perspective, if he is this kind of special talent that he's going to be a global star, could more have been done. There's certainly, I think, an opportunity in preseason to, through him to feature more or in certain ways that were perhaps more of a platform for him. And then, yeah, he come to the kind of champions league and the opportunity to play in that and that wasn't available to them ultimately because of the way the regulations work. And they could have made it so. So anyway, yeah, we've got to this point now where we feel that he could leave the club in the immediate turn because he's now turned 16. If he's got the CU passports, because we believe he has, then he could go somewhere abroad because he's been home. We could all do one of those. Yeah, what do you reckon? I was going through passports, curious to stay on the way to Madrid and I was thinking, look, look at those. Yeah, no, he's so annoying, isn't it? On the quick key through. I'll give you a few of that to be fair. But yeah, so I think it does show that United, they've certainly made aggressive moves in the market in the academies side to be fair to them. You know, they've sat a couple of ads from City at Aladdin from Liverpool as well. But yeah, JJ Gabriel's, I think, a real delicate one for them. And it'd be fascinating to see how he does in his career from now on because, you know, you're looking at Real Madrid being, you know, interested in him. I think that's a serious prospect. So, yeah, what's he going to do in his career from now, I think he's going to be really interested in. Totally great. Let's take a little break there. And when we come back, I want to discuss the finances of Manchester United. Before this. [SCREAMING] There's this. As you celebrate the game, take a deeper look at its roots. The people grow in the grass. They've in the lots, weld in the goalposts, inspecting every football, the hardworking people to make every Sunday possible. 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Welcome back to the rest of his football with me, Gary Lennykin and Laurie Wittwell. I'm super expert on Manchester United podcast, athletic correspondent. Before we get into the finances, just as a journalist that covers a football club and I think sometimes you can be so close to it that you can get. You probably get some criticism because fans will always see one way or the other. But you want the team to do well, don't you? Yes, I do. Yeah. It's not everyone's best interest when the team does the last thing you want to be super critical. Yeah. But sometimes you have to be. Yeah, I mean, I grew up a fan, you know, I was in the New Camp in 1999. So I've got that kind of history of affection for the club and then I became a journalist and you have that objectivity and you try to have that distance and scrutiny. So. Sometimes it's not been difficult having been a fan of the club and a journalist that has to do a difficult job at times. You're right. We definitely get criticised by people for, you know, perhaps you get precise both ways really for not being hard enough or then not supporting the club in the way that some people think. But listen, that's fair enough. That's part of the job. I come to it as a, you know, a try and be a critical friend, shall we say. So if you want the club to do well, because, you know, from a business perspective, it's funny to me that, you know, our podcast, we do way better, we get way better views when you're not out of one and people are happy about it when it's critical, really. But at the same time, I think football and now it's such a big business and it's fair to scrutinise, it's fair to ask questions that are difficult of the club. And so we try and do that and then, you know, report it fairly in my view and it has it's grown arms and legs when you say super expert, they're very, very kind of you. So, you know, there's now court cases, there's financial situations to delve into, there's New York Stock Exchange, there's, you know, all sorts, there's employment law, you know, there's so many angles now, it's not just about analysing a football match and, you know, finding out stories. There's a broad breadth of issues to get into and trying to understand. So yeah, it's a difficult job, but yeah, I come down to it, I'd much rather see you not win the title than not. So you talked about finances there, the gross financial debt is what, 728 million, I've got down here, 52 million up year on year, what's, what's driving that increase, I mean, they've tried to make so many cuts and which hasn't gone down particularly well either. Yeah, I mean, the cuts, I think probably were necessary when Rackliff came in. All of them? Some of them seemed a bit ridiculous. Yes. And there was two rounds of it and they said there could be one round. So that was an issue for them straight away where you kind of getting a bit of distrust, I suppose, amongst some of the staff, they've, they've come in with a, well, Rackliff has certainly felt that what has happened before is not good. And so we're going to change everything. And now I think, you know, that neglects that actually some of the stuff that was going on was fine, was good, you know, in terms of some of the ways that you know, were generating money and it's interesting now to see, are they going to be able to sustain that level of, you know, say commercial revenue that they had previously, they'll obviously signed a new training kit sponsor bet way, but they had a year out where they didn't have a training kit sponsor. So I could understand where they were calling from with that, but there was certainly way, the way they went about it caused a lot of hurt for people. The training kit sponsor. Yeah. I mean, where's the game going? You can train your kids. Certainly sponsors Gary. What else have we got? Have the glazes performed a master plan of bringing in someone that is even more unlikable than perhaps they were is running the football club. So basically they've, they've got a load of money, extra money in. And they've got someone now that they, that takes all the stick. Well, yeah, there's a contradiction at the heart of the glazes for me because on one level you're always told, you know, they weren't affected by the fan sentiment. They weren't affected by the process. Certainly on the ground, I think the sponsor protest did have a real impact when, when people were kind of targets in them. But then also, I think you're absolutely right to say that, you know, there's this idea that now Ratcliffe is the kind of lightning rod for fun on rest. And that's sort of been a productive thing for them. I think you've got, you've got Joel and Avram, who are the two that are most involved that kind of, you know, are engaged, shall we say. Then you've got the other four siblings and their family. And I think they're probably the ones that are like, we don't want to be associated with this negativity. So you kind of got two different perspectives, I suppose. And so that's why, yeah, I mean, the deal that they did, you know, they managed to keep control of the club, they still got the majority shares. They've allowed Ratcliffe to take these sporting decisions, but also these wider club decisions actually. And they've still got an exit plan if they want really so. So in February 20, 27, they can sell the club for whatever they like. If they find a buyer to buy all the shares and they can drag Ratcliffe along if he doesn't agree to it. Before that point, there's a $33 per share limit that they had to achieve because that's what Ratcliffe paid. And, you know, the guitarry bid, let by shake, I see him was about $30 per share. And anyway, so they've managed to pull off this deal that's quite remarkable, really. But it does lead to this kind of slightly strange relationship, I suppose, because you've got Ratcliffe who has to kind of say, well, what went before was bad and it was badly managed. And that's why we're cleaning it up now. But that's obviously what the glazes oversaw. But ultimately, I think they are responsible for the bleak financial picture because they loaded the club that was previously debt free with all this debt that they're having to finance. And at one stage, beyond that point, it was sort of manageable because it was 20 million a year and you're like, we're winning things and they were getting loads of money from Matchday revenue and sponsorships, et cetera. But obviously the pandemic hit that hit the cash. They were less successful. They were spending money to try and keep up with Man City, shall we say? Certainly on recruitment. It was bad recruitment. And so it's kind of brought this spiral where they had to go to market to try and find either a full buyer or ultimately what they found in Ratcliffe who has put $300 million of his own money into the club, but that was part of the deal. And now here we are with this relationship that feels really interesting to observe where it's going to go next. Yeah. The club's lost money for seven consecutive years, nearly 450 million since 2019. How long can this sustain this loss making? They've turned it around this latest financial result to an operating profit, but then once you factor everything in, yeah, it's another loss. And that's partly to do with the interest on the debt that the Glacers put on the club. So it's 35, 36 million pounds a year. It's going to go up by 10 million because they've had to renegotiate the long term debt. One of the long term debts, which was due for repayment in 2027. That's going to be a couple of percentage points to sort of 5.5% something like that. So where they're going to get that money from, they basically have to keep performing well, so back in the Champions League. So that's where you give Michael Carrick massive credit. Not only in this season for the revenue, for the broadcast from the Premier League by jumping the club from 15th to 3rd, 33 million, something like that you got, but also then you're back in the Champions League. So it's 100 million pounds of the season, something like that, plus the commercial deals that you can then do off the back of it. So I would always put that in with Carrick when you're kind of weighing up his position. Yeah, it needs you guys to keep going. It's six games as well. Calm down everyone. Six times. Look at the bottom line, please, which is sad, really isn't it, because it should be about results, but yeah, I think that it's a strained financial picture and it absolutely relies on you guys to keep being in the Champions League, and that's why they took that modest approach in the summer. You can certainly criticise that and sort of wonder, well, could they have spent money elsewhere as well as the long term debt that you mentioned there, Gary, they've got the Ravall and Credit Facility, which is basically the company credit card, which is they've got 400 million pound limit on the currently at 200 million pounds. That's basically what they use each year each summer to make transfers. And then beyond that, you've even got money that they owe for transfers they've made in future years. So it all adds up to over a billion. They owe 360 million transfer fees and 209 million of that is due within a year pressure. So it's basically you've got to qualify for the Champions League again, go quite far in it, maybe I'm not quite, you know, maybe quarter final, something like that. You kind of need to keep getting that revenue in from the wins that you get in the competition. And that's why they chose not to push the boat out, I suppose, for a left back or for a striker, but they did spend £63 and a half million on land acquired to build this new old traffic. Now, okay, that always will hold its value, right? Like you imagine that's going to go up in, but if they wanted to sell it at some point in the future, I suppose you'd have to find the buyer, but I suppose the player might not work out and their value goes down, but equally, it was a choice that the club made, you know? The stadiums never going to score your goal. I said, never going to score. I'm going to go in and win the stadium. The straight foot, then, to be fair, on Saturday was back on the crowd point, they were really up for it in the second half and it felt like there was something building there. When Believer came on, they gave him such a raucous reception, which I think was a sign of, please work, you know, we need change here, we need these legs, we've been crying out for it, but to your point, there's then even with the fans that go to the games, there's a kind of distrust around the United Building this new stadium because they, some of don't feel they've been consulted properly on it and they don't want a new stadium, they want old traffic to be regenerated because of all those memories because of that atmosphere that it can't give you. Why'd they go against what the fans want? I mean, I know that's a bit of history in football about that, but what do you think? I think that Ratcliffe, this is Ratcliffe's desire for a new stadium really. The Glades obviously have looked at it and they've never really done anything. They've never renovated the stadium since they came in. So, you know, for all that they might say what we've looked at different plans, at least Ratcliffe is trying to do something, but I think he sees it as his legacy for United to have this huge new stadium. Clearly there's some involvement with the government. They want the local council and government to pay for the regeneration of the local area, which might be fantastic. You know, certainly the plans that they've been showing. That's something they do in America a lot as you get people to pay for. These billionaires manage to get people to actually put all the money in for a new stadium, the local council or however whatever it is in America. Well, the Glades did that with Tampa Bay book and weirdly there kind of celebrated in Tampa, although they basically forced the local government to pay for the stadium that they've gone. So, yeah, it's a similar kind of vibe I guess, but ultimately the United still need to finance this stadium themselves or at least create a company to take on debt. I don't think they can, with the debt they've already got, I don't think they can then add more debt onto that. I think that would need to be paid off for some kind of arrangement sorted before they can then create more debts to build a stadium, but it just, it makes everyone feel like, you know, it feels like too much of a reach really, you know, when you're trying to get a team on the pitch to do well, to then also add loads more money in that you need to pay off in future years. And who's going to pay for it? It's going to be the funds, raise ticket prices, broadcast revenue for your subscriptions, etc. So that's why there's any an unease about it from certain supporters. I mean, there are a few things going on. What is the thing that really frustrates Manchester United fans more than anything else do you feel? Is it the team? Is it the ownership? I mean, the glazes they've been hopping on about them for years, but they've never managed to shift them. The glazes is number one right because you know, you've delighted. Yeah, yeah. When you, when he comes down to, clearly Ratcliffe is the the current focus of that and the in-house regime, you know, the different people involved, you know, but ultimately, it's the glazes. So, you know, you're not going to get free club, you're not going to be winning, you know, everything at the time. There was. We know the back story. It's a very convoluted one, you know, so Alex Ferguson's involved. The interesting thing is that I mean, if Strike's Ferguson came in and started like he did when he first took the job, there's no way we would have some hope. So at some point, I think there's slightly different issue, but at some point, much as you know, I did need to stick with someone. Yeah. One of the coaches and think to themselves, maybe it's not the coach that's the problem. Well, this is it. And like, you know, even if you brought somebody else in now, would they, would they, how much more would they go out of this squad? Is it just to get them in Champions League? That feels like that was sort of partly the Rubin Amarine thing. Do you think Carrick can get this team in the Champions League, being in the Champions League at the same time because it's difficult because to obviously don't get the rest that they had last season in the time to prepare for each particular game? Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? I mean, I think he can, personally, because he's shown, they've been close in games, you know, he's been bad, but they could have got more points. You know, he's a last minute equaliser for Everton, a worldie, but good or something. Sorry, sorry, the hill Dickinson Stadium. New stadiums on my brain, you know, City, Skoda Gold, it just was offside, you know, and again, it was bad performance against ten men, but they shouldn't have won that game, it was an offside goal. So, yeah, you sort of hold it on to things, and it will be interesting now that the Champions League starts to kick off in earnest, you know, they've got Madrid, obviously, we're recording this before the game, but but Tuesday night, there's Komo away next week, you know, it's starting to sort of rotate really on the fixtures, but I think he can, and I think that, you know, to your point on what you want from a manager head coach, Carrick does have the club at heart, you can see that, and so in this world of kind of brutal football economics and, you know, ownership that are coming in for the financial gain or for different, you know, for soft power or whatever, having someone that loves the game clearly came through, you know, West Hamza Academy, you know, play for Tottenham, came to United, won everything that United said was a fabulous player. He obviously cares about the club, so having that person as your figurehead, I think, still has merit beyond, okay, what should, you know, what should you see V-Shelwell's basically? It's early in the season. How long does it sound terrible? How long do you think? Go on, Gary. I mean, it's like that million dollar question, I mean, because football club owners will always want to take the heat off themselves and when the club's struggling, they'll use the coach as the way out, which for me, it's ultimately about players, therefore it's about recruitment and whatever budget you've got, it's who you bring in. Great coaches will make a slight difference, but I think at this level, pretty much all the coaches know what they're doing, they're pretty good. So I think it's a difficult one, but fundamentally, United, they need to get on the straight and narrow, the club needs to be run properly. Now, I'm sure Jim Ratcliffe thinks he's running it properly as far as he's concerned, but do you think they should consult the fans a little bit more? I mean, everyone says that, and all fans will have different viewpoints as well. It is very difficult, isn't it? To particularly, I suppose, to sustain the success that Manchester United had had over such a long period of time. Yeah, I mean, they've got the fun advisory board, you know, so that's part of the regulations that they have to have that as a fun forum. You know, they do me. I think certainly, props under the previous regime, it got to a point where they felt there was real agency there. And some of the change that they made at Ultrafford, for example, safe standing, taken out the executive seats from the Strefford end and put them into, you know, the kind of general admission fans were really great moves to kind of, you know, get that atmosphere back because it's all about the atmosphere, right? Like it's all about making that stadium as much of an intimidating place as you can do. Now, it's obviously difficult in the modern area with ticket prices being as they are and the kind of football being on TV. But that felt a good place. Now, you know, Ratcliffe has got different views on that, I think. So, yeah, I mean, how much to consult on fans generally. I mean, I know that fun ownership at a certain clubs can really work, but it is also difficult in others because you have loads of different, you know, thoughts and opinions on what team should be played. And you could ask 10 fans outside of Ultrafford on Saturday that all give you a different opinion about any other football. Yeah, but I agree that, you know, football is about the fans. That's what makes it special. That connection, that atmosphere, that's why it's the global game. So you cannot, you should not discount them. And I think United could do better at having that kind of dialogue and having, giving them real agency. Let me ask you one final question, Lauren. And thank you very much for your time. What's the one change that you personally would like to see made? It feels just awesome. Well, yeah, personally, I would like to see the glazes gone from, you know, Manchester United, because that change, you know, just really affected and still impacted. Now, you know, would that be a sale to the difficulty is who by United now, you know, there's no ideal owner. It's still Manchester United. Exactly. So I would like, I mean, could you ever have a world where there is some fan ownership of Manchester United with, you know, kind of wealthy United fans? Barcelona. My Barcelona. And again, Barcelona is not an ideal model, is it? Because you have sort of issues. It's been a lot of issues there over the last two decades. Yeah. So maybe it's a utopian ideal that I think, but yeah, that would, that would probably be it, because then you'd hope you'd feel that there would be more energy. I suppose I'll look at Tony Blue, but Brighton, and I know it's a much smaller scale, but someone that clearly cares for the club is smart about it. It's smart about the investment that he's making, and also has that energy is present to one that's present, you know, without being overstepping the mark. So, yeah, I appreciate it's a difficult thing, but it feels like that underpins absolutely everything that happens at United. Okay, we'll ask one more. Where were United finishes soon? I'm so bad at predictions, Gary, I don't, I don't bet. Go pessimistic, and then anything above that is a bonus. Well, I mean, listen, if you finish top off at the moment, you know, it's that's the proof, and it's pessimistic. I think Europa League, I think they could get, you know, back into sort of seventh, seventh, should we say? Well, which may be not good enough, I don't know. Well, it might be sixth given events at the other team. Good boy. Yes, that is very fascinating, how that's all going to want to unravel. Yeah. What's the feeling? Sorry, I'm going on it, but this is like how I do interviews. Yeah, always think of more questions. Well, it's okay. I just think with what's the United view? Are they quite enjoying what's happening? It's really fascinating because their whole approach is shifted since Rackliffe came in, because they were one of the strongest lobbyers to the Premier League to take action against City, because of what they saw as inflated commercial deals, which has obviously now been, you know, found guilty of by the independent commission, because they were getting, you know, investors that I know of were asking questions about United, saying, why are our commercial levels not rising like cities? And City over took United, you know, 23 to the bottom of the treble, and this is in part of the, you know, charges as such, but, you know, 340 million in commercial revenue for City, 300 million for United. And that's just unfathomable for the scale of what United are compared to it's So yeah, so bought so they were lobbying hard for the Premier League to take action. You know, the glaze are certainly we're kind of thinking we did that's what they would say they added to the club their commercial savviness, you know, kind of getting money from other companies. Yeah. And so you know, really increasing that now Ratcliffe's view is on record as more sympathetic to that. He was asked about it when he first took over United and basically said, well, I'm a smash on the pitch. We don't want to that he wouldn't see that as fair, you know, kind of city getting done in that way. And obviously he's made highest from city. I'm a brother being Chuck chief amongst that executive, you know, he was a city for a long time before that Jason Wilcox, director football, Sam Erith, performance director Steve Torpey, kind of a director. So there's a big city sort of contingent and that that's kind of separate to what's going on with city and the independent commission. Well, I think Ratcliffe seed saw city as a prototype for success and he's trying to tap into that. So, you know, I think he generally thinks of regulation being, you know, not a great thing. So he's kind of deregulating across both the oil industry and and and also in sport. But so it's an interesting thing that United now we're in. They did register their right to seek damages in 2024 via the Premier League mechanism. So it's not, you know, the not our time on that. I think it's like six years is usually the the idea behind when the course of action was was needed to be taken now. Some lawyers, I've spoken to say that it could actually be when the guilty vote, it was passed that's when the six year starting pistol starts. But, you know, it took the safe route with Spurs Liverpool Arsenal. So they can seek damages. Now, how hard will they push that? It's going to be fascinating to see given the kind of way that Ratcliffe has been more, I suppose, sympathetic to city's plight. So yeah, it's, yeah, it's an interesting topic for sure going. Well, it is and it's going to run and run for a while. That's the short. Laurie, thank you so much for for giving you a time. Very generous with it and remain, remain optimistic. Thank you. No, it's been a good shot. Thanks for having me on. I always try and, you know, glass half full kind of thing. I'm in Madrid, you know, watching the United in the Champions League. It's good times. It's not just what a what a time to be alive. Thank you very much, Laurie. And that's it for this episode. The rest is football. Goodbye. 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