What’s left for Man United this season?

The Athletic FC This is Talk Good Levels, the Athletic Show dedicated to Manchester United coming up today with Champions League football now secured. We asked the question, what next for Manchester United, what should we be looking out for in the remaining matches starting with Sunderland on Saturday. There's also an exclusive on a new training kit deal to tell you about, plus there's arguments and issues over the staging of the FA Youth Cup final. We're getting to all of that over the course of the show with Andy, Laurie and Carl. How are we all doing? Alright? Doing very well, thanks. Very good chaps. Nice to see you guys. Obviously I missed the post Liverpool glow. Can I latch onto that a little bit? Can we still run in that wave? Why not? We're going to talk about the Champions League because it is sorted, like we say. I've been doing a little bit of research since the last show and Andy, I'm sure you've done the same. So 27th August is the date for the diaries at the moment. That is what the draw for the league phase of the Champions League is set for. So we've got a full day at fun to look out for on that particular occasion. 8th of September is when that league phase begins and the early predictions have Manchester United in Pop 2, which means they would face two of the Pop 1 teams, one home and one away. That includes the likes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Paris Saint-Germain. Sounds alright, Andy, don't it? Sounds absolutely wonderful. It's what we wanted. I'd be happy to be honest if it was like, you know, some team in Moldova or whatever. I was going to say, surely you're looking up for the Pop 4 teams. I've got some part. Yeah, two of them too. Yeah, but it's good. I think every Manchester United fan will enjoy that. I think it was a moment which was missed last year. I think United have been missed in European football. I remember speaking to one executive who just said to me very diplomatically, the industry misses Manchester United and I think the feeling is mutual getting back. Give us that nice mixture of massive games, big games all-traffered as well because, you know, we might talk about going away for the vast majority of people that is more relevant for who's come into all-traffered. European nights are special. For many reasons, we've got a great team. You get a team with a really interesting support. You might get an inform team and you can get some top games. You know, Bodo Glimpton never, Man United never even played an all-Egent team and then they come to all-traffered, bring more fans than anyone else and it's a cracking game of football. So the unpredictability is a reason which makes European football exciting as well. I might be getting a little bit ahead of myself, Karl, but 5th of June, 2027, Metropolitan, El Stadev and Madrid. I don't know if you're interested. Oh, it's a beautiful stadium. So this is where I've had to come and play. They hosted a 2019 Champions League final, which was one of the worst in terms of entertainment quality between Spurs and Liverpool, but it's a tremendous stadium and he's been there several times. I'm going to guess. Was it the final in 1998? I went to watch Liverpool when the European court. I saw Scouse Jones next to me crying with emotion and that my highlight of that day, I was mixing with fans of both teams and this sunglasses seller just came out wearing a Manchester United shirt, a snide one, completely oblivious to the situation he was in and even the Liverpool fans to be fair to them. Well, like we're not going to bully you today. We're having a good moment. We've got all that to look forward to. I'm sure we'll talk more about the Champions League a little bit near at a time, but there's a couple of dates to look out for. Obviously for the moment, Laurie, so much for Manchester United to sort out. I said at the top, what next? I mean, sort out the head coach, work out what the summer transfer window looks like. Finish this season on a high as well, which is important, not just for the team, I guess, but for the momentum for Michael Carrick, the whole picture really. So there's three to go. It starts with Sunlund away on Saturday, like we've said. We'll talk a bit more in depth about that game later on, but there's nothing in forest at home too. There's Brighton away. So there's still quite a bit of motivation amongst this group, but I want to ask the question, what are we looking out for in these remaining games? What do we still need to learn about Manchester United in the final three? OK, still need to learn. Well, we still need to learn where the Michael Carricks have been. Well, that's a big one. The job. I think that's the big question, isn't it right now? But in not if. That would be my interpretation of it. There's different reasons that I would think that. Let alone the fact that he's obviously done the task that was set for him. United have up to this point still, insisting that they want to make that call in the season and do a proper process. I wonder, is there an argument? This is just me absolutely, speculatively, hypothetically talking here. Would there be an argument if you sort of feel that carrot is your guy as executives? Do you sort it out before the forest game so that then you can announce it and you can have that big emotional reaction in the stadium? You know, like we've seen before when, and it's not the same kind of thing, but rough over and coming out when he's signed before that leads game, the swirl of enthusiasm around that, even Ruben Ammarin at the end of last season, with his speech to the fans, saying the good times are coming. He wasn't here for them. It's taken the next guy to bring back that sort of feeling of good times. I know we're not fully back to where United would like to be. Are you saying that Michael Carricks going to have his wall for Wall Street moment in the middle of the ultra-fabric with the microphone? If he's not got the job by that point, he's entitled to get on the mic, isn't he? I'm not leaving. Possession is nine times the law. I'm here and put me feet up. So that would just be interesting. It would have that momentum, wouldn't it, rather than maybe at the end of the season, two weeks after the final game. Like with Eric Tenharg, where there was all this uncertainty, obviously talking to other managers, and then eventually it became the case that he was going to stay, but it felt a little bit underwhelming. I think United do need to guard against that happening again if they are going to make Carrick their manager permanently. It would be interesting. The only issue with that might mean they need to sort it out in the next week because obviously the game against Nottingham Forest is subject to change depending on what happens in the semi-final, second leg between Forest and Aston Villa on Thursday, which is what later on tonight. United could be playing them a week tomorrow. Yeah, definitely something to keep an eye out for though. That would be quite a moment that wouldn't it to do it that way. So let's see what the club have got planned on that. Andy, what about you? I said before about motivation, bright in this motivation for you clearly, but they could still be going for a European spot too. Obviously you've got forest fighting, relegation, Sunderland, haven't had a Premier League game against Manchester United at home since 2017, so they'll be up for that too. You don't need to match that and keep up the motivation, don't they? You can't be winning. There's a good spirit in Manchester United's dressing room and I don't think you've always been able to say that in recent years. Keep winning. I think there's an obligation to fans. You're going to hear them clichés. They're on the beach already if the games fade. I've seen some stinking ends to the season and look at the opponents, Sunderland. If you're not motivated walking out there in front of 47,000 people, then why you are football player. Brighton is a massive, massive game for me as important as any Champions League final. You cannot be defeated yet again by Brighton and Albion. Forest of Trips was up too many times as well, but I'm saying it all half ingest. Fans are paying good money to watch this team and travelling a lot of miles. I've been speaking to my mates yesterday, arranging the trip to Brighton. I think you owe it, but it does give fans and the coaches a chance to maybe bring in some players who wouldn't have opportunities. I would like to see that. A couple of players who've maybe not the chances this year because there's been no European football, but if you can just keep on winning, it is a fantastic habit. If you can get to the end of the season, I know it's got echoes of 87,88 when Liverpool had won it and United finished really, really strongly, but it is a good confidence builder going into the next season. Chances for players, Carl? Yeah, I think there's chances for players not just perhaps the French player, so figures like Joshua Zerke, New Zealanders Rowey, they might be able to get some more game time and see what they're going to offer for next season, but also the Academy players. Is this a time for Jim Thoetz to get some more minutes? It's going to Shay Lacey feature a little bit more. That'd be really, really interesting there too. Andy and I spoke to Kuhnje in the mix zone after the victory over Liverpool and he was asked about Bruno Fernandez and, well, when Fernandez got assist number 20, that wasn't quite an assist. Kuhnje spun around and turned and did a two and zero sign for him and he was asked about it and Kuhnje said, "Yeah, now Champions League is secure. This is something we want him to get." So that's going to be interesting too. This collection of very good attacking players, all trying to help Bruno Fernandez get to 20 goals. So I think this could be a collection of high scoring games between now and in the season. Hopefully still good defensive performances as well, but I think this might be a point where you might go for the third and go for the fourth. Yeah, what do you think about Shay Lacey Lowry because I feel sorry for him that he had the opportunity. opportunity fleetingly when Darren Fletcher was in temporary charge, mainly because of circumstance, I guess, because there was so many players missing in his position at that point. And it just just seemed so unfair the way it finished for him. And then he missed the Manchester Derby and it's been difficult for him to get an opportunity since. It would be nice if this season for him at least finished with something positive, I think. Yeah. And I think there's an appetite for that. I certainly think that, you know, he was this player that had such a reputation around and coming through the academy had injury issues that kept him up for a long time. But then this season, it's been really pleasing to see him get around that first team picture and he's taking opportunities when he's had, you know, Burnley was brilliant when he came off the bench there. And as you say, you're lucky to get the red card, you know, it's one of those things as a young player, I guess you kind of learn how to act in those circumstances. Oh, that's horrible. Yeah, good point. I would hope that he gets, you know, some game time between now and the end of the season. And I think he will. And I think that would then be the kind of platform for preseason. Preseason is going to be a huge thing for a lot of these young players because of the World Cup, even Jimmy Thweight. So, I mean, I accept you guys want to call him Jim. You know, we had a little interview with Darren Fletcher this week. It's embargoed until next week, head of the FA Youth Conference. Okay. But I can exclusively reveal he called him Jimmy Thweight. So just there are different versions of his name out there. And this kind of just feed into the carrot question as well. Does he is he planning with that in mind? So he's sort of trying to give these Academy players time with a view to him being in charge next season or even just so that you can get them further along in their own development. But also, I do think he personally would like a strong finish because then it, you know, you think that would give a better chance to rubber stamping the expectation from a lot of the players. You know, the view of him this week has been, it's been pretty strong. I mean, Casamero, Cunya, Armada, I think, Maynu, you know, they're all coming out. And I mean, Casamero's quotes were really strong. I know he's leaving, but still you can't sort of dismiss a guy of that pedigree and intellect. So, yeah, but that's your Academy question. I think it would be brilliant, wouldn't it? If we could get a few of these guys, give them some minutes in the final three games of the season. Who do you think is most likely under? Is it Shalei? So do you think you have other players whose names get mentioned who I'm told are miles off first team level? I think fans get excited and pulled into it, give them a chance for all the kids in and all that. I think it is close to being quite, it's a risky thing to do. But Laurie picking out Lacey at Burnley, I was actually talking to Oligona Solshar that night. I was at Afcon. I didn't go to Burnley and Olig was in the running to be Manchester United's caretaker manager that week, if you remember. And he was raving about Shalei, and he's a qualified football coach who knows his stuff. And he came on dinner, he had to shot near the end in front of the shots. Yeah. Two shots, yeah. On the bottom. So if you're asking for one name, it would be him. I think the Fletcher twins are at a decent level. I think, and I did a big piece on Darren Fletcher for the athletic this week. And I think there's lots of insight in that. I think, um, debut two. But if a mask being asked to pick one, it will be Shalei. So yeah, okay. I mean, there's a few other things to look out for too. We had a question from Corey who said that now that Champions League is clinched. How important is it to finish third versus 4/4/5? Does the prize money differ that much? I think it's something like five and a half million quid last season, at least, the difference in prize money between finishing third and fifth. Not to mention the fact that, you know, I think you know, I think you know, they've only finished higher than third a couple of times in the post-Ralox Ferguson era. So, you know, it's not to be sniffed out, being able to finish as high as possible, still considering the club's history in recent times. And Laurie as well, a new home shirt to look out for too, which is a new thing for Manchester United. Quite a few clubs have done this in recent years, but I can't remember United doing it before. No, you put them on the spot then, so I mean, they've done it before. I don't think they have. Yeah, I mean, it's actually the picture of it kind of got leaked in it. It's in Fort Laca, I think, at the moment. And so then, credits and a consult, a daily mail, who did the story to say that they were going to wear it ahead of, well, for the Nottingham Forest game and then the Brighton game. So I guess we've seen the last of the Red Shirt for this season already, given Sunderland playing red and white. Signed off with that Kobe winner against Liverpool's quite a way for the shirt to be put to bed, isn't it? That gives, I mean, obviously, we've talked about shirts, haven't we, and the power of them and the different memories that they invoke. And I think that's a nice sign off maybe for that one. If you've got the kind of Kobe winner to secure Champions League football in it. Yeah, so I mean, it's obviously a financial incentive for United doing this because so I'm told that basically the benefit of launching early is that you pull forward the revenue into this season and you get a double hit, based at the first year that you do it, but you do have to do it every year until you unwind it. So but it apparently will sort of hit the revenue line quite a bit. So so whether that is, you know, an idea with a, you know, to get the cash in sort of earlier and then, you know, helps transfers. I guess that would be, you know, one outcome of it. But yeah, so it's it's an interesting talking point, isn't it? The idea is that you want the players where it then people will be rushing to the shops to buy the replicas. Well, exactly. I don't remember being a Liverpool certainly have done it in recent times, been at the final day. I'm feel the couple of times and there was a mixture of fans outside. Many of them had already bought the new shirt for next season effectively that the team were finishing the campaign. And so that is that is something different. Again, it's a, it's a note basically. Remember when it used to be every two years, like that was that felt like quite was nice, isn't it? Now it's like the seasons are even over and you're doing a new one. It was a big story in the 90s. I would get like the news channels ringing me up and going. This is a disgrace. It's only two years since the last year. You must be absolutely a pull. This was like BBC six o'clock news. It was a huge story. And I would say, well, no one's been forced to buy this. Yeah, but what about parents and I'm, and this will go out around every two years. And now it's it now it's every year. There's another factor. The merchandise because of the lack of games this year, the chance for the mega store to be open and booming has been extremely limited compared to recent seasons. So Laurie's point about getting the money in the bank now is absolutely right. It has been a difficult year. If you go from 28 home games to 19 or 20, that's a massive drop off. So it would help and do it well as a buzz about and there is a buzz about because there's lots of times when there's not a buzz about and it directly impacts on shirt sales. It is so emotional, the purchase of shirt sales. And you would have a player doing well for a month and he'd been a number one. And then it's like that. So make hay well the sun shines. I think is the term. We had an article on the athletics. It's another thing to keep an eye out for in the remainder of this season. An article this week by Chris McKenna, which was given an update once again on the status of the loan players for Manchester United. Now there's two that we want to talk about in particular. One's Toby Collier and who will ask you about in a moment whose loans bell is not quite finished just yet. The other one, Carlis Rasmus Hoelan, who stands on the brink of not being a Manchester United player anymore. Napoli a minute very, very clear. They want Hoelan to stay. Every indication I've heard talking to people is that Hoelan is very happy and settled in Naples as well. So the moment Champions League football gets confirmed for Napoli, which should be this weekend. Their second place in Tamalan was confirmed as Serie R winners last weekend. But Napoli are, I think it's 12 points off. They're going to finish in the top four and could get their Champions League football. So it should be a done deal and it should be around about 40 million euros, which haven't talked to Chris Othespoon about this quickly. That should mean United Arc in the clear doesn't go down as a loss on the books and everything there. So a straightforward loan. No hidden clauses, no. It's something there or the other. This is most, I'm going to say 98% likely to happen at Rasmus Hoelan. It's going to be a Napoli player next season. So they face Belonio on Monday evening. They've got a six point cushion in attempts qualified for the Champions League. There's only three games left. So potentially Monday could be the day that seals it. So we'll keep an eye on that. But obviously that would be a deal complete with that clause for Rasmus Hoelan. Toby Collier then Andy, on loan at Hull, you've been to Speed2M. The article's out now and they've got quite a playoff title up forward soon. I think you're going to go to one of these games as well. Yeah, I'm going to go tomorrow on the way to Middlesbrough on Saturday and then Sunderland on Saturday. So I went to Hull a month ago to see Toby. He's a very nice lad. I was already told that about him. I didn't know him. Arerity, a middle class football player. You don't get many of them. So he's very highly rated. He's had a tough season because he's been injured. He was at West Brom and he was at Hull City. And after I'd spoke to him, he started against Coventry City. He was top of the table. He was one of Hull City's best players and then he got injured again. Someone fell on him in training and his ankle blew up. So I spoke to him again this week. He's back at Carrington and clearly it's been disappointing for him. But he's talked about how mentally it's made him much tougher. How living away from home has been good for him. Playing in a new group of players mentally, physically, having to adapt to a new group of players who are from all different backgrounds. Totally different contrasting styles of football. West Bromwich Albion and Hull City. So he's got a very good head on young shoulders. I just. just thinking he needs a run of games, wherever that is. The start of last year, he was keeping Casimiro out of the team. Yet he talks in the interview about how helpful Casimiro was to him while he was keeping Casimiro out of the team. There's another line in there where he basically says, "You look up to some players and then you meet him and you go, 'Ugh, I got that wrong.' He absolutely didn't do that with Casimiro." Is he definitely out of the rest of the season? No, I was going to say, "Yeah." So I thought he was right. So I spoke to the whole side who's like out for the season, he's gone back to Manchester. And then I spoke to an even better source, Toby Colgier, who said, "I want to be back for the play of final." Right, okay. So you're telling me there's a chance? Yeah, yeah. Why not? I'm vicious, I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah, I mean, it is an interesting story for him because like he says in the interview, he was ahead of Casimiro, Laurie, under. Well, I wonder if he'd been the start of last season maybe, wasn't he? Yeah, the end of. He was a Ambrins first season, wasn't as well because he had that clearance off the line against him. Yeah, that too, yeah. Where he got absolutely mobbed by the players afterwards. I remember he played left-back one game under where it's in Harg, as well, didn't he? He's been around it for a while. Bands later, really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's wanted to keep an eye on. Yeah, he's a good interview band, I think he's strong on. It's nice, it's obviously clear that they've had a good conversation where Toby Collier feels comfortable sort of talking openly in kind of speak that he would speak with his mates, basically. So yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting pre-season. He's had a terrible year with injuries, doesn't he? And I know what you're saying there, Andy, about him wanting to be back fit. I think the kind of sense from Hall anyway was that is it worth the risk to kind of push it? I wanted to try and experience this show piece event. I kind of imagine, this is a reference for Carl anyway, when you have those wrestling moments where the guy is pretending to be injured and the glass mashes and then they're actually the fine and fit and he kind of comes bursting onto the pitch to score the winner, maybe. But I think again, he will be one that you might like to have a look at in pre-season, just see Kenny be around the first in picture. Because as you say, he was showing elements of his game that could fit in what they wanted back a couple of years ago. So 22 years old, it's definitely a moment to take stock for him, certainly. So let's see what the summer and the future has installed for Toby, and we're going to have a look at that interview that Andy's done as well. We can recommend that. Right, let's talk about the training kit deal, Larry, that you've been writing about. So it's not yet finalised. United haven't had a training kit sponsor for a little while. So just give us the details on this. What does it say about the sort of status of the club now? It's a really interesting story, I think, this, just because of who they're signing up with. So it's been a question, are they going to get a training kit sponsor soon? Does Tezos, the deal with them, ended last summer? So 2025, it's been a year where they haven't had income from that potential revenue stream. It's a sort of new era, isn't it, where everything can be seen as an advertising board. You know, they even got a shirt sleeve sponsor now. Clubs were allowed to do that a few years ago, and that's something that's going to be really go shaded in the summer with the XC, expected to depart. So there's a little bit of momentum behind them getting a shirt sleeve sponsor and Champions League football has helped as well. So United feel like they have done the right thing by waiting until this moment to strike a deal where there is, you know, clear incentive for a brand to be associated with United and the stage that they're going to be at. Because training kits, you know, we see the pictures released, you know, by United don't we? And the sponsorship can be there. And then that's the exposure that you get. And often, you know, then there's 50 minutes of cameras allowed into training before Champions League games, for example. So again, there's another platform there for these brands. So it's been a long time coming this though. And so then I think the reaction to my piece in terms of it being bet way has been quite striking because it's a gambling company. So you know, this is the first time I think that United have had a gambling company in that kind of prominent position. I believe that they had an opportunity to have mansion as their front of shirt sponsor before they signed up with Aon. And that was something that the glaze at that point turned down. And so there's been, yeah, there's been a huge reaction online, you know, my post that replies to it have had all kinds of people sort of saying that this is the wrong thing for United to do because gambling, you know, there's a reason why these companies are moving into training kits, sponsorships because they're actually being banned voluntarily from Premier League clubs. They voted in 2023 to remove them from the front of match day shirts. And at the moment, there's 11 out of 20 clubs in the Premier League have gambling betting sites on the front of their match day shirts, which I think is problematic given the way that, you know, gambling, you know, there are people out there that have been, their lives have been ruined by being addicted to gambling. Now, I think Andy might have a little bit of information on it, sort of the statistics around that. But it's certainly something that I think people feel strongly about and feel that United shouldn't be needing to do this with a sponsor in this kind of way. Could there be other brands out there that would more align with what United would be about, I suppose. For United's point, they think that this is actually a good fit for them. Betweighs, obviously, a very reputable gambling agency and, you know, big sort of owned by a super group. So, yeah, but it's going to be one that I think will be debated for sure and I think we'll have more coverage on their flettics to come, but it will bring in revenue. So, you know, it's, I think, you know, United people at United believe that it's the biggest sponsorship deal for a training kit, you know, partnership, a single asset. So, I think by a Munich, I've got a big one with Alliance, but obviously the stadium is sponsored by them as well. So, not quite comparing apples with apples. So I think City have got quite a big one as well. Yeah, there's a sense that United have got a good deal with this one and, yeah, it'll mean that they bring in revenue where they didn't have any revenue coming in. And just the final point maybe is that it does perhaps lead to some questions. They have got gambling partners and must say that, you know, so Betfred, they've been in partnership with Hank Hong Kong, Jockey Club and Parry Match have also been in deals with United, but not in this kind of prominent public facing way. Will they, I don't think it's yet been decided what happens with them, whether they can stay on whether they, whether they're deals, laps anyway in the summer. That's something just to be watchful of, I suppose, as the weeks go on. I think we should also say the athletic has gambling, company partners as well, let's be honest. I took Wednesday off and was climbing a hill when my phone started pinging because Laurie Broke his story and I'd know for it for where I would be. Sorry mate. First pitch is not very nice though. Oh, it's lovely, the late district. Someone said I'll disappoint it. I think it was, you know, a United fan who's a medical professional, I respect, he said, Manchester United should be better than this. So I'm going to research it properly. I'm speaking to people from all different sectors as part of this. I'll do a big piece for it on the athletic. I did a little snap pole, couple of hundred people on United. We stand 49% said Manchester United shouldn't be taking gambling in adverts. 36% said it's not ideal, but it's not a big deal. And 15% said I'm not bothered about this. So that, but I'm going to speak to specialists as well because of the points that Laurie has touched on. It's an interesting area. And I've got some personal experiences as well of where I've been just this year meeting people on my travels as a football journalist. And it permeates into so many areas of our work as well. There are literally people stealing our work who are sponsored by gambling companies on social media platforms. But before I say any more, I'd rather research it properly. I think Laurie's broke the story. He's made some really good points there. And then I'll do a piece for the athletic. Should United be held to a higher standard? That's kind of the question isn't given the global reach and obviously the appeal, the kind of emotional connection that people have to the club. And I think gambling companies have always been there for United to do deals with. So sort of why now is maybe a question also to ask. But yeah, it's going to be one I think that's going to have a lot of debate around it certainly. We'll talk about it again, I'm sure. The other issue to talk about this week is the FA UF Cup Final. Now originally it was supposed to be staged before the 9th of May. It's between Manchester United and Manchester City. Of course, that isn't happening. It's now been scheduled for Thursday the 14th of May. But it's not going to be at the Etihad Stadium. Now it's commonplace for the UF Cup finals to be held at the senior stadiums. Of course, you remember Old Trafford and that record attendance for the 2022 FA UF Cup Final with Sheffield United. It's actually going to be held at the Joey Stadium, which is part of the City Football Academy complex across the road from the Etihad. It's caused a lot of disagreement, a lot of issue online, certainly between supporters. Laurie, you've written a story about it on the Athletic. What do you think? To be honest, I think it's pathetic from Manchester City. It's an FA UF Cup Final. The history says that you have that at the first team stadium. It's an opportunity for these young players to experience that kind of atmosphere, that kind of stage. Yes, I know that United have played at Old Trafford this season in the building. up to this and I've been there and actually the crowd numbers have been disappointing. I think that's a little bit to do with the price of the tickets to be honest. But certainly the last game that the United had there was a good section of fanting over 3,000 and there was a decent atmosphere of songs throughout. And so for City to say that they can't find space in the schedule to do it, I think there's a construction on the stand that's happening and there has to pause for match days so can they really pause it for an academy game. But I wonder if it's to do with the pitch surface and City going for a title and whether they just didn't really want to have that affected. Also, the question of whether United fans would buy tickets in greater number than city fans and whether ultimately the Etihad would actually be a sea of red rather than a sea of blue. I think that's something that was perhaps causing some consternation. Anyway, so we're down to this point where it's going to be held at the Joey stage and certainly some strong feeling out there. I think JJ Gabriel's dad did a post on X about that where he said it was so disappointing that the JJ Gabriel actually been to the 2022 FA Youth Cup Final as a young boy and said I'd love to have this kind of stage for myself in an FA Youth Cup Final and I think this might be depending on how his career progression goes. This could be his last one really. So there's some disappointment for him personally but I think that's a feeling shared amongst United players stuff. Even city players and stuff I would imagine because this is something for them to try and be really excited about and it feels like it's now kind of been sideline a little bit. And even the broadcasts, it's on TNT1. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to have it a big stadium. Except that people are maybe saying why are you getting so upset about a kid's football match, 18s or whatever. I just think it's quite an iconic event to usually have the final there. City have had a final at the Etihad a couple of years ago against the Leeds. They have had previous ones at the Joey stage and when it's been a two-legged affair. So as well as then at least on the flip side there was a first team stadium used for the away leg in that one. But yeah, I think it'd be interesting to see the kind of crowd dynamic and I think it's 968 tickets were made available yesterday for United fans which feel like a very small number. I hope that family and friends are separate to that because that could get feel pretty quickly otherwise. So yeah, it's just a sad disappointing finale when I think it should have been something that should have been revved up and put on a platform. I agree with Laurie. It's just really poor taste. I know City will say they have their reasons but it does feel like my journey is harder for a little bit. They will like they've bottled it just a little bit. Just a little bit. Because yeah, I absolutely know many, many United supporting mates have messaged me. We'll ask a couple of weeks. Card you know in the finals going to be. I want to get tickets. I want to go. So this downsizing and difficult to get tickets is in really poor taste. As Laurie said, the fact that it's only 968 tickets were made available means a lot of people I know who have been going to the old Trafford games. I now have a little bit of a fine there and to go to the finals as well. So it's disappointing. It feels unnecessary. The fact it's meant to be doing it and I know I should be smarter than this but I keep going. Surely you've got the bow to have a proper party. What's all this? Why are you pleading for a year? So yeah, disappointing. I think it's sad. I think it's especially sad for Manchester United but also for the young Manchester City players, not all those players in what are the two best youth teams in the country will play in a crowd as big as this again in their future careers if it was played in the main stadium and that's not going to play in the mini boot camp now. So that just restricts it for absolutely everybody and City, I've got that point of view and I think what you're finding now is the battle lines are becoming entrenched between red against blue and City will brief their perspective. I think it's a little bit mean spirited and they will say why should we give up home advantage. I just think it's been a cop cop. I think if you couldn't stage the final because there was ongoing construction work and Ian, you and I have walked past that construction work in the last two years. This isn't something that's happened this month. This isn't like the day they cannot miss the day. Exactly. So when you see that, Laurie, you think, "Whoa, I don't really, I'm very circumspect," shall I say, about the journalistic sceptical. Yes, yes. And you ask the question. Loads of Manchester City fans will miss out on that game as well because if they play the final, they might get 20 odd thousand. Absolutely, if you know you've got a given 50 thousand which sell loads of tickets, Karl makes a really good point. People who've been to the less around and the crowds have not been great, if I'm honest, will still miss out on the final. So you will have people who've watched the younger teams who've even travelled away will not get tickets. So it is a real, real shame for the players, for the players family and for the fans who will miss out on it, Manchester United and Manchester City fans. Is there any sort of point scheme them for fans who will have been to every round of this because some of them would have travelled down to Oxford and stuff like that? That's not true. You could have gone to all those rounds in a miss out on a ticket for the final. You could. I'd be a shame. Yes. Is it cheeses of Nazareth who's very good on tickets and he posted on Twitter yesterday that the theory, I don't think it's been confirmed yet, is that it would be exact members and season ticket holders for the men's team. Maybe those people overlap, maybe the Vendai ground, that works. And just to finish off that point, obviously, United did offer to host it all, Trafford. City said no, I guess, fair enough. I mean, apart you can understand not giving a home advantage, can't you, I suppose. Well, if they really thought, I can't you know, we want our kids because the argument is, it's a developmental piece, isn't it? It's about, can you handle it under the pressure, under the cat calls from the stands and particularly in a darb, you think it'd be quite, you know, feisty or whatever, it's kind of a home all the way. Maybe it's going to be a bear put in, you know, the 7,000, 6,000, whatever the class is, generally so they do. The atmosphere will be fantastic in there, I'm sure, for the game, you know, it's going to be absolutely packed, isn't it? There's not quite any left. So actually, City have done a good thing. Aff. That's not got too far. Come on. Yeah. And it means he used to be too, like he did it. Like I remember going to the 2011 FA Youth Cup Final when it was Chef Virginight and Harry McGuire spoke about this recently, he was playing for Chef United at the time. Bram or Lane was a sell out. It was the biggest attendance that season, you know, for any game, you know, beyond the first team. And you also at Old Trafford, it was a good attendance there as well. A couple of great games that I think, I think it happened over COVID, you know, when COVID happened, they did want to say George's Park, a final and then it seemed to go to one. With anything. Yeah, so, and City would run at home. So the reason why they're the host is that they were drawn at home. Yeah. It just depends. So United would run at home for the forest game in 2022. So it's not like anything kind of, the fairies is going on there. It's just the look of the draw, but it's just unfortunate how it's then, you know, evolved. Did I say, Chef, would you night before 2022? Got mixed up with 2011, I think. Apologies, yeah, not even forest. I mean, 67,000, 67,500 for that game. The greatest ever podcast recorded after that. You were going there, are we? Somebody brought up to me, you know, a listener. Yeah, actually, after part run, that was it. Yeah, after part run, on Saturday. So they ran round the park and that was the best thing they could come up with. This is just the. I believe. I'll describe it to him. I'm going to say, yeah, it was great because the fans were all there still mingling their gun at show. If we hadn't exclusively been there about a minute or so. Three Academy players and the families, didn't we at one point? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it just gets better every time you talk about it, that podcast. It's the Donnie van der Beek, a podcast isn't it? I'm glad it was never recorded. Right, let's talk about Sunderland. They've had a brilliant season for a promoted side to be fair. It has dropped off a little bit in the second half of the season. There's only been five wins in the league since Christmas. The home form as well, which has been a real strength for them. Now, they've drawn me Villa, they've drawn me Vastinal, drawn me Manchester City at the stadium and flight. They beat Newcastle as well. But if only one of the last five home games, if lost four of those matches, the last one was a five-nil defeat to not to conforge it. So it's an opportunity for you now to do this, isn't it again? They have done well and they would have all accepted just to stay up. But then there are, they've been coming down because it started so well. The home form, they've won eight home games. They've been pretty poor away from home. They are out of form. There'll be 47,000 people there. I love Sunderland being in the Premier League. It is a proper football city that's now a city, I think. Yes, definitely, definitely a city. They've had some top results beaten Newcastle United away in no circumstances was a huge deal for them. Was it away? Or was it, oh, that new castle all the way? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Opened away. Yeah, the beat is all 1-0. Nickville, some other squad on goal. I was in the fan park next to St James's Park for that game. You know, when it came to Old Trafford, it was a real sense of these are good days. It'll be a big deal to beat these. first clean sheet of the season. Yes. It was Son of Lamas's start and debut. Yeah. Look, I respect them as a club as a city. I've got a little bit of irritation about 2012, when they did the posnan, when Manchester City won the league. Everyone makes mistakes in their lives. I will maybe excuse them for it out of respect at them. Just looking back at old games, I remember one time, Adnan Janazai was the man and we're all thinking this is going to work. That was at Sunlund away, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. I think it will be a bigger challenge for them to stay up next year, but their recruitment this year was really impressive. I've watched them a couple of times and I'm like, you know, had I been a competent journalist, I would have heard of him and him and him and him and him and him as well. I tell you who you should have heard of, Brian Brobby, because Eric Ternarge and Argyne were looking at bringing him to United One at one point and he's actually decent. Yeah. He's pretty strong. The handful. He's a new sense. Yeah. I thought you'd be mentioning Dambalad at this point, Laurie, I thought that'd be right up your street. Dambalad. Because he was sent off for a hair pull. Hair pull, right? Yeah. He's going to miss the game with suspension. Yeah. No, absolutely. Just to absolutely heinous. We've got to stamp this out. Yeah. It's the scourge of football. I'm right on board with it. Yeah. So he'll be missing the game. It's quite a big miss for Sunderland that to have to have him out because he's been a huge step piece to be fair, isn't he? Yeah. He's been a huge feature there. Season at centre back. Decent at progressing the ball from the matches I've seen. Watching him, I'm fielded early running the campaign. I was really surprised. So, you know, that will be a big help for them. Listen, Andy. I was there. I was at field. Did you not seen progress the ball then? I was I said to Ian halfway through Sunderland played well. He scored a brilliant goal. Talby didn't it? I was scored there. That was at Amphule. And I said to him just after that, that ball progression is the fourth best I've seen this week. There you go. And I'm not going along, say, Ashley. And then I contacted Sunderland. This bit is actually true. I said I'd like to interview Talby. And he said, yeah, not this week. Can we do it towards the end of the season? And I've still not got back to them. But I will do. But you blanked him. I am blanked him. No, sounds like you've ghosted him, Andy. The thing for me with Sunderland, it's all about ball progression and shipbuilding. This is slanderous. I need to bring this back on track here. Let's talk about team news for you now, Tical and leave these two silly boggles to it. It was going to play centre-off. Big question. Never mind their centre backs. What about ours? The side of what aren't there's this back from his red car suspension. He's justified red car suspension. Correct. But I don't think Aiden haven't done anything to play himself out of full. And I'm really enjoying the partnership with him with Haramaguaya. Aiden, it was a very good box offender. I like his aggression and I like his ability to block. I want to see him in the team longer because I want to see his ability on ball progression. He's left footed. He's a lot younger than Sunderland. And there's Cany, starting it around confidently, especially in theory. There's a bit of the pressure off. We saw one bad example of Manchester United building out from the back against Liverpool. Can heaven, you know, go on the ball more, be it a little bit more dominant, him and Manu, in particular, help with some ball progression in central midfield because that is going to be important and it's going to be very important regardless of who the customer is successful for the next season. With Aiden heaven, obviously he's impressed in the absence of Martinez. Is this just a decision for this game, L'Oreod? Is this given as a clue as to what Michael Carrick might be thinking a bit longer term? Well, if you want to get kind of big picture with it, obviously Aiden heaven is he 20 now? Was he still 19? Might still be 19. He would the rest of the future of United if he can maintain this kind of form and build and improve. Les Andes Martin has two years left on his contract in the summer. He's obviously had injury issues. It's going to be a pretty crucial summer really. I think they have to make a decision whether to give him a new contract, which I think he's probably wanted for a little bit actually, or selling. Because do you really want to let him get into his final year and then that affects the value? And certainly this regime of very attuned to trying to get good value for their players, selling at the right time, buying prices that they feel are palatable. I think it could be really interesting, Dan, I met that between Martinez and heaven in the Spanish few weeks and then obviously into the summer. Yeah, some of the decisions for Michael Carrick to make, Andy, I mean, Benjamin Sessco's fitness, we don't know quite his status after being taken off with a shooting jury against Liverpool, but how big a mischiefing he would be for this game considering his recent form and certainly the way he played in that first start against Liverpool. I think Sessco has become an increasingly important player for Manchester United. I think Michael Carrick has introduced him more and more and more, I think his statistics are very impressive for his first season. I've been researching around him and just getting loads and loads of positives about how professional he is, how good a lad he is, how totally focused that he is. I think he is a player who could improve significantly to become a top top class number nine for Manchester United. I'm just totally infused by Benjamin Sessco. I think he's had a really good first season. I think Laurie is really right to feel around the area of Los Angeles Martinez. Going forward next season, you're not going to have a lot of players who have not played enough matches who earn top money, do you cash in on them? If a big club comes in for Martinez this summer, just sell it because as he said, he might be looking towards a new contract. These are the bold decisions that need to be made at Manchester United. I think in the summer, you've got three or four defenders who are not going to be able to play all of the matches. So going back to what we want to see for the rest of this season, best case scenario for a Martinez, do you play improve that you can play free matches and not get injured and play well? Or do you let someone like heaven who was also out of good season, loads of positives around him, establish himself, it's all about getting minutes, it's a chance to get minutes. We have the luxury of giving players minutes because Manchester United have over-achieved and are already qualified for the Champions League. Did you see the story about Bates? Couldn't you have speaking of minutes, Karl, as well? There's a report in Brazil that somehow the national team had agreed with United that he wouldn't play in the final three matches. I don't know what the truth of where it came from. This is some crafty bank holiday business. Obviously, bank holiday Monday, ESPN, Brazil, send out a message on social media that says if an agreement can be agreed between the CBF and Manchester United, canoe would be shuttle down for the final three games, the aggregators then took that, removed the if and certain agreement had been reached because it's a bank holiday Monday and various journalists are at home with their families, not looking at their phones and not are their keyboards. I think the aggregator version without the if circulated a couple times before eventually some more sensible figures came through and went, "What on earth are you talking about?" So yes, couldn't you, is available? There has been no agreement. There is no conjecture about him not playing the final three games in the season, so it's fresh for the World Cup. How was this even a conversation, no, like it should be a conversation? I don't think even the if allows it to be. I do remember there was a conversation ahead of the 2022 World Cup, which obviously was mid-season. Anthony Dostantos, remember, was having some form of injury problem for Manchester United. I do remember towards the full-arm game which was the last one before the World Cup break. The Brazilian journalists didn't get to ultra effort and just asked 10-hark directly, is Anthony fit and available to play for the World Cup? I don't know. Yeah, he's fine, don't worry. So I think there has been previously some sort of hesitation or questioning as to whether these Brazil national team players in particular are going to be fit enough to play for the nation, because it's a big deal. I get, I don't speak to this way more, but the Brazil national team is a huge accolade and it's very, very rare that a national team player retires, formally retires from Brazil. Call up, you just stop being selected rather than say, "I'm out of it." So I think there's been some tension on the Brazilian side, which probably shows how good a season Kunius had in that Brazil won him to play, because right now if you're looking at that Brazil front three, well, you've got Rafinha, Hendrick, Jalpedo, Vanishes Jr. Kunia. His name are out of it. Maybe. But the fact that Kunia is of such importance that someone on a bank holiday weekend might go, let's go get some clicks. Well, I mean, Kunius are of an importance for Manchester United. You know, I'd need him in the team for these these final three games, case in point as well, because the other factor in this is the other forward players like we've spoken about a couple of times of late, you know, have not been at their top level. It's going to be a special day for Amad going back to Sunderland and he got very emotional in an interview yesterday. Beautiful, that's what I was in the room for. I just done my interview. I didn't have a message from Tony Mobri to show him. Don Kunius, don't you from Skye's? It was a lovely, lovely moment. Yeah, a message from Tony Mobri, didn't they? Yeah, and basically saying about how amazing it was to work with him at Sunderland. He was his manager during the 22-23 season and just how much of an impact he'd left there and, you know, how much Tony had enjoyed watching his development since. So it'd be a special day for him. It might be a fitting day to end his run without a goal or an assist, which has been going on a while now. But Brown and Bumo's the other one, Laurie. I mean, 10 games now without a goal for him. And he started so wealthy and I did and we had a couple of messages about the reaction he's shown going off in a couple of games. I personally just think that's frustration with just how he's going for him at the moment. Then any anything more. But what would you do? I guess just rotate him and I'm adding and sort of let them fight it out a bit and then see him and then Chuck Shay Lacey on and say actually there's a third guy you need to be a little bit right wingers on the team. Yeah, why not? I mean, you might need to you know, one or two more left wingers, I don't know just to give a bit of competition there or perhaps more orthodox left wingers shall we say. But yeah, it's as you know, his first touch in a Manchester United shirt in a competitive game was fantastic in. We all saw it. None of us thought that he took a little bit of time to get up to speed in that first game. Stixing my mind, that podcast that we did after that first game where you were you were alarmed that I hadn't noticed. No, have you seen the first such come on? Yeah, yeah. But it's just I mean, I don't know. He started so well that I think you know, it's perhaps not going to hit that level all the way through. Afcon obviously came in the middle of the season. So how much did that sort of perhaps recalibrate the rhythm that he was in? I still think he's a wonderful player and even even helping out with you know, the counter attacks against Liverpool, he was playing a part in those moves and he still is a very threatening player on the last shoulder on the shoulder of the last defender. And so I still got faith. It's fine. It's you know, it's one of these things that happens with players when it's a creative player in particular, you know, every single winger that you never had has had a dipping form at some point, even the legend of the club. So I think it's it's fine. And I don't mind his reaction. I think it's just a frustration himself and you know, he doesn't want to come off. You know, he wants to try and keep going. And so I think that's a positive to have and just really actually touching on sesco when Andy was mentioning there. I'm told that even on the Monday, he was feeling better from this sort of shin injury that he picked up. So I would hope that he's okay for Sunderland. Okay. Well, I mean, by the end of today, we'll know Michael Carrick a hold his press conference. I'm sure we're giving up date on sesco. Maybe by the time you're listening or watching this, you'll know what the situation is. But let's leave it there then on Talk with Devils. There's been lots to get in there. We've progressed a lot of topics. So it's been good to do it with you guys. So Laurie and Nicole, thank you so much for your company. I think and thank you for listening and watching along as well. We'll see you on the next one after Sunderland. Take care. Bye-bye. [Music] The Athletic FC.