1. What's gone wrong with fatherhood?

(soft music) - Hi everybody, welcome to the Intentional Family Podcast. Here, we talk about what has gone wrong with family, fatherhood, and parenting in general. And, how as followers of Jesus, we actually have a better blueprint available to us. My name is Jeff Bethke, an author living in Maui, Hawaii, and I'm joined by John Tyson, a pastor and teacher at Church of the City in Manhattan, New York. Welcome to season one. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Hey guys, Jeff here. Quick note about this week's episode as we were editing around the 14-ish minute mark, we started to hear some interference or some static. We think it was from a cell phone, that's probably just too close to the mic. Not a huge deal. We just wanted to let you know you will hear that. We tried to edit it out as best as we can. It only lasts about a minute or two, and we just wanted to give you a warning so that it can be an enjoyable listening experience for you. So, okay, without further ado, here's this week's episode. - Okay guys, welcome to the Intentional Family Podcast. I'm here with John, John, you wanna say what's up? - What's up, let's go, come on. - Yes, I'm excited. Okay guys, we're just gonna set the stage here, and we're gonna jump into it. So, we wanna keep these episodes 20 minutes or so. And so, because of that, I'm gonna toss this first one over to John here in a second, but to set the roadmap, we basically have eight to 10 episodes we're gonna record, that you guys are gonna listen to over the next couple months, okay? 17 to 20 minutes each episode. And we basically wanna dive in. I'm gonna say the first two or three episodes are going to be what's the problem, what happened, what's going on, diagnose the problem. And then the last five, six, seven, if we do that many, is going to be the surgery. Going to be what's the tool, what's the solution, where do we go from there? So, we're just gonna jump into it. So, if you know, John and me, both wrote books on family, John's called. - The intentional father? - Yes, intentional father and mind, take back your family. So, if you saw, we got a little cute and fancy, the podcast is called intentional family. We put them together. So, we're excited and we care about this. We care about this deeply. We want to hopefully create space for you to rethink your family, rethink your fatherhood. And that gets us to episode one. So, episode one is going to be what happened to fatherhood, or another way you said it this morning is just what's the point of fatherhood? - Yeah, what's gone wrong? And so, started a high level. We're obviously gonna spend a lot of time on this. But when you hear that word fatherhood, when you think of the immediate problem, when you think of the immediate pain point someone's coming into right now, you know, in this, you listening to this, or even at a national level, what would you start talking about? - Well, I want to just, I actually just make the case first. I've never met a person in my pastoral ministry about the past of a 20, 16 years in New York City. I've never met a person who is not in some way wounded by their father. - Oof, yeah. Everybody is carrying around. - Even if they say he was a good dad, et cetera, et cetera. There was still something that I remember, or. - It's like the formative power of a father. I will also say that when people have been blessed by their fathers, there's almost like nothing as potent and as powerful. And I think a big part of it is because Jesus prayed, father, his revelation was abba. - Yes. - So the Old Testament, the revelation was Yahweh. And there was nothing as personal, but the New Testament was like a father. And so there's that sense that we are wanted, that we are created for a purpose for intimacy. And our earthly fathers were designed by God to model and reflect that. So it's not just a father wound, it is a divine wound. It actually projects back onto God what things are like. So I honestly believe that one of the enemies, great strategies is to destroy fathers. And I'm not talking about the patriarchy, which we're gonna get into. I'm just talking about humble, godly, Christ-like, confident, sacrificial man, living for others, building a thing, inviting others into it so they can prosper and flourish. And so yeah, we're definitely dealing with very, very high stakes around the issue of fatherhood. - I like that. Okay, so when I hear you say that, I immediately think to kind of this, at some level, fatherhood and parenting, I think we all feel like this. It feels almost like a razor edge we have to walk where it's very, very thin in regards to either you fall on the left of passivity, you fall on the right of too over controlling whatever it is. So let's talk about some of those. What would you say is somewhat maybe like two, three, four, especially in your writing, your research, pastoring a church, you see as like kind of predominant themes that fathers will absorb into their heart and stories that absorb into their heart and then live out that are overarchingly wrong, whether it's passivity, you know, overmasculinity, et cetera. - Okay, go to yeah, well, I stopped by talking about five kinds of fathers. And to me, I think it's a report, I think it's important to find them because, 'cause these, I think when you look around our society, these are presents. So five kinds of fathers, number one, you've got the irresponsible father. This is basically sperm donor. This is basically conceived life and walks away. Does not acknowledge I've brought a human being into the world and that this person will look to me for significance and provision. Then you get, so yeah, you've got irresponsible fathers, then you get ignorant fathers. They just like don't know what they're doing. Don't understand childhood development. Don't understand the needs of a child. Don't understand how to raise them, love them, nurture them. These do incredible damage as well. Then you get inconsistent dads. And I recently watched the season. - Yeah, well, in and out. And I would say basically to address your original question, torn by personal ambition and brokenness. So Anthony Burdon is like the perfect example of this. I just watched his documentary. And in the documentary, he has kids later in life, as a daughter later in life. But he's so torn between his career and wanting to be a good dad. So he's on the road, he's traveling all the time, he's doing everything. But then he comes back and he tries to overcompensate. So he was amazing whenever he was around, but he wasn't around enough. And he was just, and he said, and there was this line that haunted me in the documentary. One of his friends shares it in tears. He says, he had this romanticized version of what a dad was. And when he couldn't live up to what he felt paralyzed. Then he started dealing with guilt and shame. He would withdraw and it was never enough. That's any consistent dad. Personal brokenness, personal ambition. Stops them accepting primary responsibility. Then you get involved, dads. This is your typical good dad. Shows up at the game, does the sex talk, helps you learn to drive a car. He's there. But if you've had an involved dad, you've been blessed in ways you don't even know it. But the thing I would say about this is, there's a step above an involved dad. And that's what I'm advocating for, which is an intentional father. Because an involved dad gets the generic wisdom and manhood right. But they don't ask the question, who is my particular kid? What is God's plan for their life? What's their personality? What are their gifts? And the intentional father, I would say, is the one that considers the child they have. Consciously designs a plan for their development and formation and then sacrifices everything they have to help make that happen. So when the kid leaves the home, they will know that it didn't just get generic wisdom. They got a customized plan of formation and development. And so to me, that's why I wrote the book to give people a plan on how to be intentional in their parenting. What would you say? So I love that. And again, guys, go check out the book because he dives deeper into it. One thing I'll say about this podcast, guys, well, again, over two months, you're going to maybe hear 15 pages of stuff from our books and both our books are 200 and some pages. So if this is resonating, definitely pick those up to dive deeper and go deeper. While you're talking, what I thought of is, I love that. I love that nuance you did at the end of, yeah, intentional versus involved. So to me, the words I think of that involved father is still an eight out of 10 in the sense of like, it's sadly we're in a culture where like that's almost a 10 out of 10 and it is a blessing and it is goodness. So counted as blessing and so. But two things that are missing, I would say, tell me if you agree with this with an involved dad because we exactly, I immediately got the picture. I think most people do is vision and like a long term building, right, I feel like an involved dad is asking questions, not asking those questions, an involved dad is asking, how do I react to any of these moments that are happening in my kids life to show them the right things? So it's almost reactionary versus proactive. When an intentional dad, that's proactive, that's I wanna first, I need to have a vision. So like I'm actually taking my kids somewhere, I'm a guide, I'm a Sherpa to them at some level, right? When an involved dad, I don't think is asking those questions, it's just how can I react to this moment of their pain or their sadness or whatever with love, with comfort, et cetera. So vision, and then like a plan to build something, I don't have a weird way to put it, but I'll talk about that in my book all the time. If you, God wants you to build a team, this vision, this kind of outlast yourself, right? It's kind of pat, that's what discipleship is at some level, right? Is your building, would you say that? - No, I totally agree. I also think that what the, one of the worst things that can happen, it's a good intent bad outcome, is you project from your past into the future of the child. - What do you mean by that? - And so I'm gonna give you all the best stuff, I've learned that that may not be what they need for their future personality in the world they're gonna live in. So I grew up, I'm 44, I'm 100% Gen X, the forgotten generation, I'm not better, but. (laughing) - So, I was like millennials, I was a little forgotten now too. - Gen Z. - But so I grew up, no cell phones, I remember getting an email, I'm thinking, this will never catch on. Seriously. - No you didn't. - I moved to America and I was like, I need an email here, I'm going to college. - It's crazy that that one still has like, you know what I feel like, we've gotten so much technology and email, still the main thing is communication. - Still a bit of a fault, yeah. - So anyway, my point being, I didn't grow up with available pornography, I didn't grow up with social media in comparison, it was like I had an actual yearbook, that was it. So I think the intentional parent is going to fit figure out the world the kid is going to live in. So that's gonna require sacrifice, research, understanding that may not be a default, may not be default instincts, and that can be intimidating. So to me, it's not just a plan that ends at 18. I'm actually working on something for my son right now called Minimum Manhood, and it's just like here's the baseline of adulting you need to get right in college, which is like the next level. - And what's that gonna be like, a kind of a creaky, and you go through with them? - Yeah, right now it looks like, you know, like, it's like, basically the primal path for two skills at an adult level. So instead of like, here's what you need to get into adult. He's had a live as an adult. - Young adulthood marriage coming soon. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I like that. What would you say? So then, you know, father's hearing this, you know, I almost want to even circle back, you know, in the last five minutes on that first point of like, we all come with a wound. We all have been wounded, and the wound, we have, I think one thing I would encourage to your father's with, you know, listening, or you know, mothers too, I'm sure we'll, you know, have families listening together, is that the wound is usually in direct connection with one of those five missteps of parent-hunter fatherhood you step into, right? - Yes. - Like, almost your wound almost creates one of those, I'm either irresponsible, I'm either, you know, or, 'cause involved, even though a lot of dads are usually great at that, or the ones that are, even that sometimes is coming from a place of like, my dad didn't show me X, so I'm gonna do this, rather than, you know, something bigger or more intentional. You've hit the exact nail on the head. The involved dad says, my dad didn't, so let me do what I wish I had. - Yes. - And that's good, but not enough. - That's right, rather than, who is my kid? And so I can tell you a classic story for my life. This is like, my dad was a, he did his absolute best. My grandfather was a missionary in India, so my dad grew up in a boarding school, had a terrible, terrible childhood, deep emotional wounds, would sleepwalk, trying to find his family in the middle of the night, and looking for his family in the sleep room. - The trauma, yeah. - Real stuff. And so, my dad did way better, but one of the things about me is that, so I'm a leader, I pass the church, I preach up the front, a lot of people would assume, that John's number one struggle is like, dominance and arrogance and pride. - Oh, pride, yeah. - It's actually insecurity. I'm the most reluctant leader that I know. I'm the guy you drag to the stage, not the guy you pull from the stage. And so I was pretty gifted. - Because of how you were raised or something, - I don't know. - No, I don't know. I don't know what it is, just did a week of counseling. - Still working through it. - But no, but I'm serious, it's like, so because I did very well academically in sports, my dad would always say, "Don't be arrogant, don't be arrogant, don't be arrogant." So I have a governing voice whenever I start to accomplish. It's like, don't make this about you. So if he had known what was happening, and that's good advice. - Yes, but not particular advice. - That's right, if he had known, what he would have said was like, "John, do not think this is the limit of what you can do. Go hard, he would have encouraged me, not warned me." And again, that's just like knowing the nuances of the heart. So what he said was true in general, it was even biblical, but knowing my heart, I needed to hear a different specific message. And I think that fifth level of intentionality says, "What are the keys to my kids heart? "What do they need in life?" And then basically works to help that, and quit them in that. - Yeah, I feel like that's been some of the helpful, even with young kids. And so that's why I love about this podcast too, that we'll get into is you got kids that are sent into adulthood now. I'm still kind of like guinea pigging some of the stuff, in the young house, seven, five, two year old. But yeah, one of the best advice we've gotten so far is a mentor basically just said, like, "Make sure if you have three kids, then you are three different parents." And he was obviously saying it facetiously, a little strong, but at some level, he just meant like, you have to meet each kid. Like your job is to shepherd that kid, with their needs, with their wiring, with their distinctions. So obviously not in a way that's like, "Oh, it's always unfair," or anything like that. But he's like, "You are three different parents "to three different kids. "Do not just do one size fits all." Obviously the value system, yes, at the overarching, yes, at the story level, yes. But that's been really helpful, 'cause then it makes you pay attention more. You're like, "Oh, okay." Before I can be a particular parent to kid one, kid two, kid three, I need to kind of study them. - Totally. - I need to kind of pay attention. Let's end this episode though. Let's just end with like going back. What are the first steps to then get out of this, right? So like, you know, 'cause we'll get into primal path more, we'll get into when they're later in life more. But let's say, you know, you're in your 20s or 30s. Even you specifically, let's say what you, you know, we can end with your story. How did you start like morphing yourself into a proper healthy father? - Yes, the first 25% of the book is like, you gotta do with your stuff. So roll high, whatever pain is not transformed is transmitted. - Yep. - And so I had to basically sit down and go, okay, let me make sense of my story. Let me understand what wounds I have. Let me understand what was good. How do I dam the brokenness and release the blessings that I got? So it was like a period of deep, deep introspection, and tension. - With pastor, and counselor, and all that type of stuff. - Yeah, a lot of it was myself, just on my own, like, dealing with processing with the Lord. - Totally sitting down. I did like a map, which is one of the exercises. I just, I went through year by year my entire life. - Wow. - I did an emotional map, which is not like, 'cause some of the big things that happened to me didn't affect me, and some of the small things crippled me and released me. - And you didn't realize that till you kind of processed? - Yeah, and so it's just like, okay, let me go back and see like, what really is still in my heart that's formative? And then I began to extract from those things. We were just taking a ton of process. - Yeah, couple of weeks, couple of years. - I mean, obviously, like, you know, obviously at some level, years, but are you, is there like, almost an intensive season of like, I wanna take a couple of weeks to get away, retreat away? - You know, the commitment I made was that, I try for quite a bit, whenever I, whenever I flew, this would be my time. - Take that space. - And I wouldn't just watch a movie or zone out, I would think through my life. And so I've got a pretty comprehensive understanding of what it is that formed me deeply. And then I can either get healing for those things, or I can basically codify them as like, hey, this is gold for my life to pass on. And so that's good. - Yeah, that's good, do that. And if it's bad, heal. - That's right. Yeah, heal and repent or break it off. - You know, so yeah, just, I think self awareness, gotta be honest, you gotta know what's happened to you. And then if you get that right, I think you have that, become into your parenting conscious. - What would you say? So then someone listening to this, a father, you know, I mean, how do you then, and it sounds like you had a pretty healthy, loving father, good relationship, but still some stuff that you had to process. How do you process stuff with parents above you? Is it like, just you do it by yourself, you engage with them, you write them a letter, what's kind of, what are kind of steps there? - Well, I mean, the Bible says, you know, on your father and mother, that it may go well with you. - Yeah, you may not. - The only one that kind of promises the blessing. So this is gonna happen. - There's something about that. And so, yeah, on my wife's side, you know, it's like a little bit of a different dynamic, but with my dad, so yeah, I basically wrote him a letter. And my dad came and stayed with me. He's an Australia, I'm in New York. And I could see my dad watching me with my kids. - And kind of like something. - So like, it's just a silent observer, like my dad is paying attention to my parenting. And I thought, I wonder if he's thinking, what does John think of how I did? So I just wrote him a letter that basically started with like, dad at this point in your life, you're probably wondering how I thought you did as a dad. And I just listed out specific things, 'cause I've done that emotional math. Here's all the things you just got right. Thank you. - Wow. - Wrote him a letter. And my mom said to me, you know, like, I don't know what you did to your dad, but he was just in tears like that. - Wow. - That was very, very sad. - 'Cause yeah, 'cause even for, again, it's just the story of manhood goes on forever. So he's probably still even at his age wrestling with these kind of, these voices, these questions, right? And you use that letter to kind of be that signpost to that moment. - When my son went off to college, you know, we came in and he'd handwritten a letter on each of our pillows. - Your dad? - No, my son. - Oh, when he left to go to college. - And I'm telling you, I sat there. - Wow. - So you say, yeah, when you receive that from him. - Yeah, on the receiving end, it's like there's something so potent and healing about it. So then someone who maybe has a little bit more wounded side with a parent, not totally toxic, but just like, hey, maybe they realize something. Is there any, do you think there's ever any hard conversations with a letter like that? I'm like, hey, thank you, thank you, thank you. But also, I need to process this. - I think it depends. I mean, as Paul says, as far as it depends on you. - Yeah, yeah. - And so you've got to figure out like, you know, what it means to honor in a healthy way, not in a way that enables or passes on toxicity. So there is a way to bless even in the worst situations. But that doesn't mean that you get rid of boundaries and you have to determine like what cost you need to bring these things up for resolution and for family dynamics. It's different for everybody. - Yeah, oh, I love that. Oh, this was, this was the first episode I was hoping for. That's for sure, and listeners, if you're listening too, I hope you as well. What would be an admonition? So father hearing this, maybe, you know, somewhat, you know, I know we're gonna get some listeners that you know, have followed us, read some of our stuff, kind of engage with this ideas, but I'm sure we'll get a lot of new listeners. If this is your first time hearing anything like this, I've just tried to say, man, you gotta go deep, you gotta map out some left, you know, all this, it's still basic and easy and they need to do it. But what would you also say as a heart level encouragement to these dads? If like, hey, this is, kind of, this is, you're needed. Or you know what I mean? Or like God has something for you. - I would say it as never too late. It's never too late. I believe there was so much power in a father's blessing and attention. - Even if you got teenagers. - That's right, yeah, I mean, you know, like you've got to acknowledge you may have some slow work to do, so don't do like one thing and be like, I made an effort, why can't you see? You may like, if you've neglected it for a long time, it's gonna take a while to change the dynamic. But the, when you shift, when you make a move, heaven aligns with you. And I don't say that lightly. You are shifting into the heart of God, the power of God, the kingdom of God. And when you step into the way of Jesus, you get the power of God. power of Jesus. And so I would say, it's never too late. Be kind, be encouraging, speak a word of encouragement, ask for forgiveness. I've got a friend whose entire family was transformed. His ministry today, because his dad, who was like a very, very angry and aggressive man, became a follower of Jesus, brought everybody into the room, asked for their forgiveness, sat them down, washed their feet and said, this is the start of my repentance. I'm a new man. Like you want to talk about breaking a cycle. And these kids under those kids, kids under those kids. That's it. He looks back at it today. He's like, that broke something new in my family. Oh, that's the dude around me thing. You know, I mean, of your children's, children's, children, it happens with moments like that, with breaking, with leaving. Oh, that's incredible. So, okay guys, we hope you enjoyed episode one. We will see you next week. Make sure to check out John and my book. If you want to go deeper, we'll put links down in the description. But besides that, we're excited to go on this journey with you. We'll see you next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)