Speaker 1Ultra running shoes are all about space. The space to go further, to feel better, to do something you never thought possible. And this space starts with UltraFit. Unlike traditional running shoes, UltraFit gives toes more room to move naturally, so every step is strong, balanced, and comfortable. Whatever you're lacing up for, stay out there with Ultra. Shop now at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running dot com.
Speaker 2Hello, everybody. Welcome back, or welcome to Recovering Out Loud. Today, we're honoured to have, for the second time, Jay P. Jay is the director at The Recovery Place Toronto, Sober Houses for Men, and a dedicated therapist with Jaxx Toronto. Jay brings unparalleled compassion and 40 years of expertise to the world of addiction recovery. In this episode, we dive deep into the realities of addiction, exploring its impact, the cycle of dependency, and the transformative effects of addiction. Jay shares more personal stories, insights on maintaining composure in the face of challenges, and the importance of community and purpose in sobriety. We also discuss the state of addiction treatment in Canada, including advancements like rapid access addiction medicine clinics and harm reduction strategies. Get ready for an honest, inspiring conversation with a true role model and friend. If you or someone you love is suffering with mental health or addiction, please reach out. Go to JaxxToronto.org, J-A-C-S-T-O-R-O-N-O-D-O-R-G, or TheRecoveryPlace.ca for more help. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 3I was giving Jane a hundred bucks in the grocery store. I said, and there was an older woman behind us. And I looked at Jane, looked at the woman and said, that was great last night. She didn't get it for about five seconds. And she was like, you're so bad. That's funny.
Speaker 2That's hilarious.
Speaker 3The proper etiquette when you answer a phone and you're on speaker is immediately to say, hey, I'm on speaker. My wife's sitting here. Or nowadays when you're in the car, that's the worst one. I always tell people, and I said, he was doing that to me. And I said, don't do that. He's pissed. Yeah, I'm pissed. You never know what somebody will say, right?
Speaker 2Yeah, I used to have guys that would.
Speaker 3I just shot a guy last night. What's up with you?
Speaker 2You're like, yeah, I'm in the courtroom right now.
Speaker 3I'm on a charge.
Speaker 2The judge is listening. It's all good. Jay, thanks so much for coming back down, man. We really appreciate you. We wanted to get this back up with Caleb. And we got kicked out early last time. I had a million more questions for you. And I got a lot of feedback, too, saying that that was one of the better episodes. So we appreciate you coming down.
Speaker 4I don't know if they were saying that because I wasn't in it or because you're so handsome, but they really liked that episode. It's probably a little of both, right?
Speaker 3Oh, man. I was overshadowing Anthony. Yeah.
Speaker 2No, it was good. We had a good time. I really enjoyed it. And I'm enjoying this podcast, like we said last time. You know, I had a million stories before. Oh, I remember I was going to say in the bathroom at this place that we do the thing. I don't know if you've ever seen it. There's a sign on the wall and it's so sarcastic and condescending. I love it. It's like, thank you for not peeing all over the toilet seat and keeping it clean. And every time I read that, I always think about him because we were in rehab one time and he was telling this story about how he sat on the toilet seat, remember? And someone pissed all over the toilet seat and you jumped right into the shower after and it like ruined your week. And dude, that was like the funniest. I'll never forget that. It seems to happen to you a lot. If you do that, you're a piece of shit.
Speaker 4Yeah, literally. Like it takes five seconds to just grab a bit of toilet paper, wipe it off. And I'm lazy with those things. But like, you know, thank you to my mom for raising me right, I guess. But like, do not piss on the toilet seat, even if you're in Walmart. Like, clean it up.
Speaker 3Someone's got to ruin it after. Yeah, nothing worse than sitting on a wet toilet seat. You know why it's wet. You know why it's wet. You know why. No one's crying on it. No. No, nobody splashed water on it to wash it.
Speaker 2Especially when the sink's like all the way on the other side. Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 3That's why you never leave your shampoo at the Y in the shower. You never know what's going to be in there.
Speaker 4Oh, I didn't think about that. Thank you.
Speaker 3Or don't use someone else's shampoo. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4Yeah, that's sick. Actually, quick story before we get into it. At a place I worked where you have cross shifts, right? So you'll come in for 10 hours. Yeah. And then at nighttime, the same guy, you know, you're doing this for 14 days straight, right? And there was a fight between the two guys. And it was something simple over taking someone's shampoo, right? Because we all shared. We're both walkers. And we'd be coming. This was the opposite crew. One of the guys on my crew put piss in his shampoo bottle, right? And he told me he did it, but I didn't believe him. I'm like, there's no way you took the thing and pissed in it. Sure as shit. The next day, the guy was waiting. He was waiting in the parking lot for us. And he said, who the fuck pissed in that shampoo bottle? Because it went all over my hair. Oh, my God. Yeah, you would know right away. Yeah. The consistency is very different.
Speaker 2Unless you have like an illness or something. Yeah.
Speaker 3We get that once in a while in the recovery house. Somebody's got their, they go in to do a urine screen. And, you know, we look in and they've got a bottle of shampoo. And they're pouring it into the urine bottle.
Speaker 2I'm clean. What's going on there? What about the first time you had to do a piss test at Jay's house? Oh, yeah. Tell that story.
Speaker 4So I went three months of rehab. And you do a urine screen like once a week or whatever. But they witness you do the urine screen. They watch you, right? Take your pants off. For that reason, exactly. Yeah. Right? Because as addicts, we're pretty sneaky people. You think? Yeah. So it's like my second. I had a rehab. I'm at Jay's place. And I go to do my urine screen. And the counselor gives me the cup. We're in the room. And I just pull my pants off. Right in front of him.
Speaker 3I think I remember somebody telling me. You were somebody else telling me that. In the office. In the counselor's office, right? He was like, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 4He's like, did it in the office? He's like, pull your pants off. And I'm like, well, you trust me? I said, nobody trusts me. Like, OK.
Speaker 2It's true. Nobody trusts me to this day. It's awesome.
Speaker 3Very glad you didn't have to. Dude, do a number two in the.
Speaker 2Yeah, we're taking fecal samples now. It's a new drug screening. Yeah, rectal exams. Oh, man. All right, Jay. Tell us. I was curious to get your thought on this. What, in your opinion, what is addiction?
Speaker 3Well, different definitions of it. The DSM defines it one way. The medical model defines it another way. But I think basically a physical dependency on a substance, emotional dependency on a substance or a behavior that when you stop doing it, there's symptomatic withdrawal effects. Something around that.
Speaker 4That's a really good short description of it.
Speaker 2I agree. I was looking at the cycle of addiction today in that circle. Yeah. And I think what I've come to realize, what separates me from my friend, the guy that's not an addict, is that that stage, I think it's three to four or four to five, where it's, I think it's dependence or, like you said, tolerance to addiction. There's that, when it starts to affect someone's life, they can't show up for work. Their health starts to decline. They go, whoa, whoa, I better stop this. And we don't, I don't know what that's about. I have no idea. When I get into that stage, it's like, how do I keep going? How do I-- you know, how do I do this so that I can not affect my health so badly or somewhat show up? Or it'll be different this time, which is what we talked about.
Speaker 3I think there's a, you know, when you look at that cycle of dependency or, you know, cycle of use, really. You know, the social, experimental social use, misuse or overuse, abuse and dependency. And the difference that I always see between people who are abusing drugs and alcohol and people who are dependent on drugs and alcohol, you say to somebody who's abusing drugs and alcohol, something like, you know, if you keep using, you're going to have these consequences, you know? And the person who's abusing can say things like, oh, wow, I don't want that to happen. I'm going to cut back or I'm going to stop. A dependent person says, oh, wow, I better get really stoned tomorrow. That's going to hurt.
Speaker 4Yeah, no, that's a good way to look at it.
Speaker 3There's a failed solution, they call it in India.
Speaker 4Yeah. Failed solution. When you were saying the-- the first description, what it makes me think, I'll use an easy example, is my brother. My brother, he drinks, like, not alcoholically drinks, but like, you know, on his weekends or whatever, he'll go out and party and he'll get drunk. And he'll wake up the next morning and then he'll be normal, right? For me, if I do that, I lose my house, I lose my truck, my family doesn't want to talk to me, right? And it's like, to a certain degree, it like, pisses me off. It's like, I wish I could do that and be so-called normal, which I-- Responsible. I hate that word, normal, but like, you know what I mean. Yeah. But for me, and even with recreational drug use, which sounds very absurd, but there is people that go out there on weekends occasionally and they do a bit of cocaine. And you know, they're not supposed to do it, but they do it, they don't mess their relationships up, they don't lose their homes. For me, I could not do that, right? And that's what separates me from the normal person.
Speaker 2They always say it's like, you know, fun, fun with problems, and then just straight problems after that, right? And I experience that.
Speaker 4It's like, they say it. It was fun at the beginning. right but like i was in addiction for about five years and it was about manageable for about three months and then the other four four years and whatever months that's lots of math for me to do but the other rest of the time i was like already starting to fall behind on bills and then i'd sell one thing and then i would sell another thing and then at the end of it i had two t-shirts a pair of socks and yeah a headache that's about all i had right so it's it sucks but one of the agencies
Speaker 3i work at uh hamish the guy who uh started the yeah started the agency would say uh pleasure passion and purpose you know in the beginning it's pleasurable we develop this love relationship with it and then it becomes our purpose you know we're just you know finding ways and means to get more it's always you know yeah that's it yeah i just shared this at the at
Speaker 4the house meeting like they asked me to tell my story i remember the one part of my story i told was and i've said this all my podcasts as well is when i told my parents about like how bad my addiction was and they're like they asked me caleb why do you do drugs this is like a week or so before i went into rehab not even a few days and i said like listen like i will before they asked me that question for years now it's like i just do drugs to party sometimes like i don't do drugs every day like you know i'd lie to them but what i told them that day was listen i wake up every single day and i feel so fucked up if i don't do drugs this conversation that me and you were having right now we're having it because i just got high 20 minutes ago and i'm able to feel normal right now to talk to you yeah that's it like i said i feel not normal with drugs like medically emotionally every way i feel horrible without them and i remember my parents usually always had something to say after i had said something because it was usually stupid but that was like the first time i just like was honest and just described how i felt and they were like they were brokenhearted right but they were just like blown away by like holy crap like we can't help you yeah you know we're gonna try something else yeah you need you need to
Speaker 2need professional help yeah yeah yeah yeah okay what in what in your opinion is recovery then
Speaker 3like what what is recovery um you know i think well first of all i think it's stopping you know stopping the use so you're stopping the level of harm that's being caused you know you're and you're putting yourself at lower risk for ongoing health concerns um there's kind of stages uh to you know there's a usually there's a mounting crisis of some kind you know someone's overdosed as caleb is saying losing you know friendships you know uh suspensions at work families you know distancing themselves or friends are distancing themselves you're starting to borrow money whatever's going on there's some kind of event or crisis that kind of catapults the person into that next stage of okay what do i do you know um there's a model called stages of change which is pre-contemplation other people see the problem you don't um contemplation i know i have a problem i don't want to do anything about it um planning i know i have a problem i want to do something about it and i'm looking at what the options are outpatient intensive programs inpatient psychotherapists therapists 12-step programs uh then action and that's usually where we see people actually making some fundamental changes in their life they've been using they put themselves at low risk they're starting to eat better sleep better um maybe they're on a medication that will help them like an opiate reduction medication or an antagonist they might have gone to a treatment center um could be a number of different interventions and then there's maintenance which is i'm maintaining uh where i'm at which puts me at low risk for ongoing health concerns right yeah and then during that stage is there's also uh relapses and things like that lapses you know slips yeah what would you say is
Speaker 2when guys come into your house and when you're when you're counseling um what's kind of a common theme that you say see in successful people like people that that put together a lot of time or a
Speaker 3long amount of time so that's a great question yeah what's like the common thread uh i think a common thread is that they develop meaning and purpose in their life they wake up you know they're not sitting around the house all day in their pajamas you know they've got somewhere to go something to do that kind of gives their life a certain quality right that they didn't have before uh the other thing is is joining being a member of a community and i think that's why 12-step programs are so successful because it gives people or smart recovery or you know any of those groups that that we have uh uh you know we all have these problems how do we get through it together so meaning and purpose and and belonging a sense of belonging and it doesn't really have to be you know necessarily addiction focused you know it could be a church group it could be i don't know you're going to the gym yoga yoga yeah it could be anything as long as you know i i am a big advocate of joining groups that do look at the healing process around it addiction so aftercare programs outpatient programs because you have like-minded individuals right whereas you're going to church the focus is on something else it's great it's spiritual and i think that spirituality plays a big part you know we get out of that self-centeredness we start thinking about other people more you know and how we can kind of help each other yeah it
Speaker 2reminds me of the analogy of um it's like we're all survivors of the titanic yeah you know we've all kind of right been through this like that's a massive event together and you know you know when you go into like recovery meetings or places where other people are recovering and have had addiction or alcohol issues you kind of just everyone's like hey yeah you get that nod it's like i know i know what it's like you see the new guy come in or the new girl come in and you're just like they're shaking and they're scared and they're hopeless and you're just like like i know you know i know what it's like but like to the whole successful
Speaker 4thing it's something i've seen too now living in sober homes and seeing people go out and seeing people you've seen both sides i know have success i think if you're someone that wakes up and like you said stays in your room doesn't do a whole lot doesn't have much purpose throughout your day and purpose doesn't mean you're going out there to change the world purpose just means like maybe you're looking for a job yeah you know you have some obligations some passion now basically if you're sitting in your room all day or sitting at home all day watching tv the only difference between that and what you were like an addiction is you're not high because i remember for my worst parts of my addiction like i just sat in my my house in isolation i used to sit in my room and isolated myself and and got high yeah so like i think one of the most dangerous things for addicts is boredom yeah you know when you get too much time in your head you you're in yourself that is when bad things start to happen right and i'm sorry go ahead no i think i i i mentioned a lot of the same things when i'm on this podcast but it's because i work they work yeah but that's what i do like the second i'm in my room just like right now for the last week i've had a little bit of free time i'm between jobs and like if i'm thinking if something's going on in my life and i'm in my head thinking about what i should do about it i call someone yeah because if i don't do that like i'm still such an idiot in so many ways and i'm very open and honest to say that because and if i if i don't think i'm an idiot and that's from people telling me like don't you got some work to do if i think and i do what i think i should do like 30 minutes ago what just happened i explained you won't get it on here but if i would have done what i thought i should do right i would probably be hospitalized hospitalized in the in the police station or in a police station right like and that's just what my instinct tells me to do right but i had a friend with me and i just i was never someone who did what someone like i never took advice yeah you know i never if you told me to go left i was not going left i was going right and i was never coming back right but now you know just not doing all doing my own will all the time
Speaker 2i like to think of it as like it's like it's like i'm you know presenting to an audience of me's it's like a bunch of me yeah i'm like and then everyone's just like yeah great idea do it do it right that's what happens when i'm in my room by myself i noticed that to be especially true when i was in treatment this last time with you every single time i was in my room watching tv i was miserable the place sucked time was never gonna come like the time was never passing miserable with a capital m by the way yeah he would detest to it and then every time without fail every time i would just go into the room the big room we called it at the treatment center with with all the other addicts and people the counselors it's like i i was just like in a another world i was connected i was happy i was you know it wasn't so bad the treatment center i
Speaker 3was recovering right i think there's a there's a couple of sayings that come to mind uh an addict alone is an addict in bad company you know because as you know as addicts we're walking up a down escalator you know if we just stop you know our our old thinking kicks in oh i should go get high i should go do this i should go do that that'll because we're pleasure seekers you know our is going i want to be happier you know i need something out here that's going to it's going to be food it's going to be a relationship not even a relationship it's going to be sex you know something will make me happy and the other one is get out of your head there's no adult supervision in there right which is true we have such immature attitudes and thoughts about our life you know that uh we need we need intervention yeah you know and that's why aftercare and 12 step programs and friends in recovery are beautiful because they can tell us hey what's up with you caleb you know you're not quite right you know like you look like you're off in space somewhere and we need that i have a question for you jade so like for
Speaker 4someone you've been in this program for a long time you've been around addicts for a long time and like i've been around a lot of people now like in the recovery industry we'll call it and like you're by far one of the most compassionate people and i mean that because like i and i truly mean that because you've been doing it for such a long time now you know what i mean like i could say for myself for the first two months i was a lot nicer i'm getting less nicer like every single day are you getting jaded right so it's it's like compelling to see someone like yourself is doing it for so long and you still continue to do that right like it may i see it all the time with you and i'm not just trying to like blow your spot up you're a great guy when it comes to recovery but my question is like do you ever get in like you run a soap you run sober homes so you're dealing constantly with drama just you know and like not normal drama like you know drug addict drama like you know we do some pretty messed up things at times do you ever get to like do you ever like lose your patience with these people
Speaker 3oh yeah and how with that guy you can't see him he's off camera jake shout out jake shout out to
Speaker 4jake he may have saved your life today yeah but like just what what do you do like because i think that's a coping mechanism that like i could like things happen in my life in my i freak out i get mad but for you like how do you just stay so calm because you are such a calm cool collected guy like i i've seen some situations that i've dealt with first and i've seen some situations that i've now with guys relapsing things happening and i call you i call jay and i'm expecting jay to go like holy shit call the ambulance call the cops get on an airplane news over here fly to a different country that's what i'm expecting you to say but you're just so like this you're so good about everything and you're not judgmental serenity you know i'll be thinking this guy's an idiot you're like it's okay he just needs to do this this and this and it'll all be okay like how do
Speaker 3you just keep that kind of composure all the time i don't know you know what i don't really know i think some parts i think sometimes desensitize to it like it's just all normal yeah um i guess it's like somebody who works in a morgue and sees dead bodies all the time and like if i saw one i'd be like oh my god yeah you know but that person it's like every day uh you have to to think you know the recovery houses are very different than treatment centers way different treatment centers you're getting people that are you know like their moods are up and down like yo-yos yeah you know they're they're in withdrawal they're self-loathing they're shame guilt fears anxiety worries with us everybody's come in you know they've got 30 days maybe maybe they don't have their maybe you know they've just come in off the street but it's somebody that we've know that we've worked with uh like our good friend over here uh but you basically know what the person's about you know that they've got a good heart yeah you know that they're you know they're kind you've seen that i've seen that you know i've talked to them on the phone before they come in they've told me what their their aspirations are where they'd like to go what their goals are and i guess you know when when things don't go well when somebody you know i don't know somebody hears of a friend's death or uh you know their world gets rocked in some way um you know i try to think you know what they're just doing the best they can right now and i'm going to treat them with as much love kindness and respect as i would want to be treated myself if i was offside you know and i think that's basically the best way you know the best thing we could do with people because you know i think ultimately we all feel like we we all want to be cared about yeah you know and when somebody's really offside they're not feeling like they can care for themselves so we have to show them that they're worth being cared for yeah yeah love them until they can love themselves right exactly that's the whole message i heard when i was going to uh recover you know the recovery programs people did that for me and they continue to do that give me a
Speaker 4hug i remember when i had a couple months of sobriety and i was in treatment still and like someone someone come into the like they were doing their detox right and they were like just annoying me i was you know i was just like this person's an idiot or this or that so that night i had a counseling session and i told my counselor i'm like i'm about to lose my mind on this individual and he laughed and he said listen man he's like do you not remember the big gigantic bag of shit you walked into this treatment center with he's like like take a break and i thought just that simple message hit me i was like that's very true and that's one of my biggest problems is like i forget right and when you think like okay like that could easily be me and i remember you said those words to me i think it was when i called you about one of our friends had a slip and you know you just said like hey man you said that could be me that could be you right and when you really look at it like that it's like okay right because my first reaction is to just judge the situation judge the person it's this this and this but who really knows right yeah we're all the same at the end of the day when it comes to our disease you know it's sad to see that's the biggest thing for me i get sad when i see someone that's one of the toughest parts about a sober home for me is you build such good connections with these guys you know what i mean such good bonds and connections you're living with them and then you know you're on this great path everything is going great and then within you know six hours
Speaker 3you know that's what powerless when they talk about being powerless in recovery literally when you've invested so much time and effort in somebody and they've invested in you and just in i they're gone and the relationship is gone and you don't know if you'll ever see them again yeah but it's not like a friendship where 20 years goes by and it's like you pick up right where you left off yeah you don't know what that person's going to be like two days from now they're calling you for money yeah they're saying everything's great except you know uh can you give me 50 bucks that's
Speaker 4so true one of my friends that's all right now we live together for a month we come really close every night right yeah and then he left i hadn't talked to him for about a week and then we talked and it was so different yeah like like we had such like a good bond and mesh when we talked and hung out in person but that conversation on the phone was like awkward it was weird i'm like
Speaker 3i don't know no idea this guy who is this jackal and that's what i was gonna say dr jackal yeah
Speaker 2yeah definitely yeah yeah um something i really wanted to get into last time and i'm happy you came back for this purpose alone um so i've been to three treatment centers now three rehabs just interviewing staff about their families yeah good just checking out the yeah to give you feedback my brain just got that joke yeah i know it took me a while too i was like this guy's too smart for me um just to just to give you info on how good the treatment center is of course yeah i'm uh i'm like one of those undercover food guys you know nobody knows i'm not actually an addict yeah just checking the facilities yeah just checking the facilities
Speaker 4quick joke before you get into this question i heard this actually a couple weeks ago and uh at a different sober house i was at a meeting right and someone i guess got caught doing drugs so uh the owner of the house he says listen he's like if anyone's going to do a science project in the bathroom he said that's a no-no he said research gets done outside he said that should be a sign on the wall he said no science projects in the bathroom all the research is outside for
Speaker 2those who don't know we call it doing more research when we go back out right yeah it'll
Speaker 3be different this time this insanity there's a treatment center in uh israel they've got a sign outside it says diamond diamond polishers right yeah and what they what the guy's saying is you know you come in here as a rough stone and we polish you up and you become you know yeah yeah so i've been to three rehabs two in
Speaker 2the united states and uh one here in canada um i wanted to get your opinion on kind of the state of our society canadian society specifically you know the structure the infrastructure that we have as a as a country maybe as a province of ontario or city or what like what what do you think about the way things are going in canada and the way things are going in canada and the way things are run now um and you know i found out later that the reason i was sent to the u.s uh the real reason i was sent to the u.s is because it was harder for me to escape and go back yeah and i was like oh that makes sense maybe where am i yeah and it's just it was where's my passport yeah and uh yeah why don't these people are why aren't these people saying a i don't understand yeah but then and then i've you know it's funny because that actually happened when i went to canada the canadian one i actually left and i went back so it makes sense to me now make you feel better
Speaker 4my parents when they brought me to rehab they picked me up and i was like oh my god i'm gonna i slept in a vehicle i i fell asleep and i woke up 13 hours away from my house and my parents like you're not going home buddy you're staying right here took a couple bus rides and ubers to get
Speaker 2back home you don't have uber where you're from so you're screwed yeah i had somebody they woke
Speaker 3up in georgia in the mountains and they turned to their their uh father i think it was and said where am i and father said i'm not telling you that's the worst hangover ever right yeah oh my
Speaker 2god so what do you think about the way the way things are right now as a that's actually a good
Speaker 3yeah i i think we've come a long way in the last i don't know 10 15 years especially around um well the whole model of of of addiction treatment and mental health really the greater you know kind of model of mental health has moved from kind of an institutional model to i think that would be like a multidisciplinary model which means um you know we're not institutionalizing as many people we're we're doing more keeping people in their communities you know having smaller uh inpatient and outpatient programs at one time let's say in the 50s uh mental health was treated you were shipped off you know to you know some you know uh asylum yeah right you were taken off the street and you know uh you were dealt with in whatever way they were dealing with it um i think they called back that dipsomania was alcoholism back in the day - Back in those days. - Ipsomania. - Ipsomania. - That sounds way worse. Yeah. But today, you know, we've moved away from that model. They've closed up a lot of the asylums that were around. Lakeshore Psychiatric Institute would be Midland, Orillia had a big, you know, mental health facility up there. So they've closed most of those and the local hospitals have opened up with smaller psychiatric units. And I think what's gone on in around the 60s, we started coming out with more psychotropic medications like Valium for Anxiety and anti-psychotic medication, Stelazine and Chlorpromazine, things like that. Although not great, listen, we've come a long way. It's been, you know, 60, 70 years since then. Or 50, 60 years. Medications have gotten better. So people go into these units in the hospitals, they get stabilized after two weeks, they're on medication, they're functioning better, their quality of life has improved. And they're going back out into the community and they're becoming, you know, their quality of life is better. Right. So I think that's the model we've moved to with addiction as well, where there's a lot of harm reduction strategies that have come out. The needle exchange. The needle exchange programs, things like that. Naltrexone, Naloxone, you know, everybody can get access to Naloxone now.
Speaker 2That was a big one. Yeah, that was huge.
Speaker 3You know, before it was, you know, present your ID and it was, you know, they removed a lot of the barriers for, you know, you getting help for your friend. You know, everybody's got, you know, that's out with opiates now has Naloxone kits, you know, and their antagonists, they bring them out immediately out of an overdose. Right. Like within seconds. Our treatment center gave everyone a free one on the way out.
Speaker 2Yeah. I still have it in my car.
Speaker 3Yeah. Naltrexone, a longer acting Naloxone for people that are drinking alcohol or it reduces the cravings around it. Or if somebody's on Naltrexone, they might be on, I think it's called, I can't remember, Riviera or something. But it's a shot, a depot shot, a one month shot.
Speaker 4Oh, that's called Sublocate.
Speaker 3Sublocate. Yeah. Yeah. So if they're taking that, then they're good for, you know, almost a month. Yeah. Right. If they use something, they'll be in precipitated withdrawal or some, you know, it's not fun. No, it's not. Yeah.
Speaker 4I'll tell you a funny quick story. I was, I was trying to pick up drugs one day. Right. And I had used the day before. So the way these drugs work, Suboxone anyways. Right. If you've like, you can't be on any other drugs, but Suboxone or else you'll get like aggressively sick. So. Other opiates. Yeah. Other opiates. Right. Yeah. So I had used it within the last 24 hours and I'd went to someone who I knew who had Suboxone. And I always heard about it. I'm like, that kind of sounds like a fun drug. Never tried it before. Should be a great time. So I went to him, bagged this guy for his medication, you know, like a sick person I was. And he gave me some. Yeah. He gave me some. I went home, I took it. And then within 30 minutes, I'm sitting on my couch waiting to get high. Right. And then I just felt like the biggest urge to puke ever. And I spent the next like eight hours. Like it was like not quick. It was long, like eight hours puking and puking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I thought this guy would like, I thought he like lied to me or something, but then he told me, bro, you didn't tell me you were doing other drugs. And I'm like, what? And it's an anti-antagonist. Yes. So it's meant to keep you off everything else. Yeah. Right. I believe in, I believe those actually may help someone if, you know.
Speaker 3Yeah. So they came out with Subutex 15 years ago or something. In the States, we did some testing here with it. And I think what they found was it could be abused. So they married Naltrexone with it. So we got Suboxone. Right. So it's, it's. The Subutex is an opiate replacement that binds to the neurotransmitter walls. Right. And then it lets go. So it's not like methadone where it fills it up and then just stays there. Right. Until it's metabolized. It bounces around. Right. So you don't get as.
Speaker 4An intense high.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. And they married it with Naltrexone so that you can't use other, you know, or you supposedly you can't use other things. I think probably some people found a way, you know, there's always pretty resourceful. Yeah.
Speaker 4Not to get like too political about it, but I can share my experience when I use methadone, I was still able to use other drugs and like methadone still got me very high. Right. So.
Speaker 3Yeah. You know, all, everything's got a place. Yeah. You're right. Methadone has a place, uh, Naltrexone, Naloxone, uh, Sublocade.
Speaker 4I know a few people back home that are, you know, they've been on this stuff for 30 years. 40 years and not to make anyone's situation harder or easier, but like for me, I had four or five years using opiates. It'd be easier for someone who's been using it for 40 years and their body is like deathly sick if they don't have it right now, that person who is say, let's say they're 65 years old, they got five years left to work until they're done retiring. Is it worth them not being able to wake up in the morning, go to work, this drink, if that's all they're taking, if they're taking that they're dosed. Cause last time on one of the episodes, I kind of talked pretty harsh on methadone and it was just because it threw a pretty good. Good curve ball in my life. Right. But that's my personal problem. I'm a drug addict and I'm the one who let it ruin my, my bit, my life. But for that person who actually might need it and it's helping them get through their day, they're just using their dose, you know, that's prescribed to them by a professional doctor. Okay. I could see how that helps someone, but for someone like myself who was using it with other, I was using it to get high. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Taking multiple of them.
Speaker 3And they're, you know, I've got lots of friends who've been on it 30, 40 years and it just gave them a quality. A quality of life. They, they could escape from that buying and ripping and running and, you know, that street scene, you know, and, and we know so many people, you know, our friend, uh, we can't, you can't see him, but he's over there. It just came off a methadone and, you know, we celebrate, you know, because he's not in liquid handcuffs. And I don't think people, but, but it gave, let me, sorry, but it gave him a quality of life that he couldn't get without it, you know, and through that been able to go to school. Been able to work, have healthier relationships with his family and friends, been able to sit in a, you know, maybe a 12 step meeting or, or other kinds of meetings and help other people. So, you know, like you said, it has its place, but it can also be abused. Right.
Speaker 4And for someone who can get off that or any drug, to be honest, but like, we're going to use methadone specifically, like that is such, that's a huge milestone in someone's like, that's big. I've been through it personally and it's so hard to do because it's like, it's someone almost like, uh, you can rationalize it in your head, like, oh, it's a prescribed drug by the doctor. I did that a lot. Right. Like same, like, I don't understand how people who smoke pot and are alcoholics, like it's so easy for you to just, you go to a gas station and it's right there. Right. So like.
Speaker 3Yeah. But every, you know, you can say that about, look at all the money in the bank, you know, like I saw them, they brought out stacks. Why wouldn't I take this? Of fifties and hundreds. Yeah. And I said to myself, can, can I have some of that? You know, well, no.
Speaker 4Sometimes when you have a conversation with a therapist, they just make you feel.
Speaker 2You know what they do is they bring a mirror around and all your sessions and they just hold the mirror up.
Speaker 3That's recovery though. Don't we always say, we pray you see yourself walk through the door. Yeah. You know, you see that, that sick and suffering addict that you were once, you know, and now you're like a couple of steps ahead of them and either look down on them and say, oh my God, you know, what a, what a terrible situation. That guy's in, you know, or you look at them and say, oh my God, I remember when somebody else helped me. Yeah. It's like somebody reached down and gave me a hand, you know, and that's what really true recovery is about is helping the next guy. It's like, play it forward.
Speaker 2It's like, uh, having empathy versus sympathy, right? Like, you know, I, I, I've been in their shoes. I've been in your shoes versus, wow, you're pretty bad off, man. Like I'm going to go hang out with my friends and drive my Ferrari while you walk to the bus. Right.
Speaker 4Yeah. I got a question for you. And we talked about this before. So like for, since we're talking about like the state of like the recovery in our country and stuff. So for me, it's still really new cause I'm new to Toronto, but like the, the addiction and mental health scene in Toronto is quite large. Now for the person that's like currently homeless on the side of the street using drugs, what is like the best, how do you help that kind of person? Because like that person and the way I'm asking this question is cause I was like granted a beautiful opportunity to go to a treatment center. I had everything like. Land on my lap. That person's not going to have that opportunity land on their lap. Right. Nine times out of 10 anyways. And so for the person that doesn't have that, like what, like what does Canada or Ontario or the city, what needs to be done to help those? What's the answer? And that's a very loaded question. So I.
Speaker 3Well, I think it's a good question. I think, you know, the government's poured in a lot of money into outreach street outreach work. You know, we've, we've, you know, not enough, you know, as far as homelessness goes, but you have to kind of think, okay, what's the price? What's the priority with this person? They're living on the streets. They're using drugs and alcohol in a way that probably helps them forget that they're living on the streets. Or maybe they've been to the shelter system and they were abused and there was some violence or something else happened. They would rather live on the street, you know? But we do have, you know, we, I think the government's pumped in about $30 million. I can't remember. 32 million. I think it was 20, 2023, 2024. And they pumped in. They pumped in another 20 million into beds, more bed spaces in treatment centers and sober houses. And that's to get more people off the street. Give them more opportunity to move forward. But I think when we're talking about, you know, people that are homelessness, you know, marginalized populations, youth, indigenous populations, single mothers, things like that, we're doing better than we were. There's more programming. There's a program that started during the pandemic, Better Help, I think it was called. And it's for kids, I think, 16 to 25, free counseling. Virtual counseling. You know, we never had something like that before. There's so many more. The RAM clinics, Rapid Access Addiction. I've been to those personally. They're great. You know, I think back like 15 years ago when I heard they had the first pilot studies, I think there were six or seven of them in the country. I think Ontario, I think, has 60 now in the hospital system. That's amazing. So removing those blocks and barriers to getting help was a big deal, a really big deal. You know? Where you have to, you know, call, you know, a place, put your name on a list, do an intake, you know, go down to another intake or, you know, whatever, make an appointment, see the doctor, all that kind of stuff. Now, walk into a hospital, you're seeing, like I said, the multidisciplinary team. You're going to see an addiction physician. You're going to see a social worker. You're going to see a nurse practitioner. You're going to see a nurse. You're going to see an addiction counselor. And you can go back as many times as you want, basically. All three, yeah. And what their job is, is to get you. Get you into the right type of help according to your level of motivation and what you're using and what will be, we'll say, the biggest bang for the buck kind of thing. You know? Can you take time off? Are you working? You know, can you take time off work? Are you afraid that you're going to lose your housing? You know, all kinds of problems, you know, for people. It's a multifaceted issue. And having these teams so readily available, I think. It's been miraculous. I think the States has been looking at our model, you know, introducing our model as well.
Speaker 2I want to comment on the RAM clinics because I thought that that was a flawless experience. So RAM is, it stands for Rapid Addiction. Rapid Access Addiction. Medicine. Medicine, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rapid Addiction. Something like that. Access Addiction Medicine. Anyways, they have virtual as well as in person. So I live in downtown Toronto. There was, I pulled it up on my phone one day because it's my third. Yeah. Yeah. My other therapist, Polly, shout out Polly, mentioned it to me. And there was one at St. Mike's Hospital. Right. So I walked there and I'm not even kidding. It was like the middle of the day. They have certain times you go in. I was probably, I've never had an experience in a hospital like this before. It was probably an hour total in and out. They had, like you said, I saw three levels of care. I saw an intake coordinator and they're all qualified credentials. I saw a doctor after that and they asked me a bunch of questions. I did a P test. I lied about the P test and I said that I wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't doing any drugs and then I was on Vyvanse before I went to do the P test. By the way, I'm probably going to pop for amphetamines and I felt good about being honest in that moment. But then, you know, to your point, they gave me a bunch of resources, pamphlets, all this stuff of free therapy, free groups. They prescribed me medication. I think one of them was the naltrexone for the cravings and it was in and out, an hour. I was in and out. So I shout out Ram Clinics. If you need help, I always link in the show notes after that. After all the resources in Canada. When people say to me like, you know, oh, there's nothing I can do. I don't have money. Right. There are answers out there and you've beautifully articulated that. There's answers. There is a solution out there. You just have to want to do it.
Speaker 3There's, you know, I'll go through, you know, scrolling, you know, looking at YouTube or whatever it is and ads will pop up for treatment centers. And then I look at the comments. Comments will be, well, I can't afford these expensive luxury rehabs. And I always write in, you know what? Call Connex. Connex. Yeah, Connex is great. And here's the phone number. And it's a listing of all the mental health facilities, the beds in the province. It's a listing for gambling programs. It's a listing for all the addiction treatment centers. And you get hooked up pretty quickly. You know, there is obviously we're in a social medicine, you know, in Canada. So there are weights. But that days, you know, if. Today is February 5th and, you know, my intake date for going into treatment is May 4th. May 4th is going to come around whether I'm listed to go into treatment or not. Yeah. Maybe by May 4th, I've gone to 50 meetings already, you know, and done 10 other things. Maybe I haven't. And if I haven't, thank God, there's a bed for me on May 4th. It's a great way to look at it.
Speaker 4I really liked, I liked how you were, like what you just said, because when I said that, I was expecting like almost a negative, like, oh, this needs to be fixed. This needs to be fixed because it's so easy to get. I go up down the street, see a couple of people that are struggling homeless and it's like, oh man, they should be doing more. They should be doing more, but they are really doing a lot. I didn't know about this RAMP clinic. Yeah, it was great. That's, that's great. That's really great. And I mean, it, it, it wish if we could go like this and help everybody, you could, but it's.
Speaker 3Well, when they say they say treatment or recovery is for people that need it, not for people that want it. No, it's for people that want it. Yeah, I was going to say. If it was for people that needed it, we'd have treatment centers the size of the sky. I don't, you know, no one would have that's right.
Speaker 2The Rogers center. You're dating yourself there, the Roger, I love it. I just want to comment quickly on the, the wait times too, because I had that experience too. Another reason actually why I went to, um, the States, it was private as well. But, um, so 10 years ago when my mom first started, you know, uh, I remember like it was yesterday. She, poor woman, like she was so she had no answers, right. And everywhere she called every single. Person would say the same thing. He has to want to come in, right. We can't accept somebody that, and she would lie on the phone and be like, no, he wants to, he wants to, he wants to. And I definitely didn't, right. And, uh, she was at her wits end, but you telling your mom, like, no, I'm not going.
Speaker 4Yeah, no, no way.
Speaker 2And then when I got kicked out, that was the only way I went like you, I don't really have a produce once in a while. Yeah, it's not that bad. Right. So, uh, I remember 10 years ago, the wait times to get into like a cam H or, uh, you know, a public place, uh, where, where something. Like four months, you know, six months, three, four months. And she was like, he's going to be dead by that. If he keeps going the way he's going. Right. So, um, now I will say this when my wife called this last time to try and get me in the way time had reduced, they were still, you know, weeks out, but it is getting better to your point and progress, not perfection. Right. We're never going to be at a place of perfect. I think one thing that we could do better, and I don't know if this is ever possible. I, I'm a very, you know, I like pie in the sky ideas sometimes, but, uh, what I noticed was. When I went to the States is a lot of the kids there had been there on their parents' insurance. Right. Insurance covers a lot of rehab in the States. Hazelden, the one I went to, which is a great treatment center. Do you ever think we'll get to a point like that in Canada?
Speaker 3Well, insurance covers, I'm trying to remember insurance will cover part, right? So they'll either cover the therapy part or the resident part. And I can't remember which one they cover. I know with Homewood, uh, a lot of insurance will cover, let's say, let's say it's $400. A day, they'll cover $200 a day of it. Some, some insurance does cover, you know, inpatient rehab. Um, but you're right. The majority, uh, don't they'll cover therapists, you know, and things like that.
Speaker 4And then it's an allotted amount, some companies, like if you're working for like a company, like a union, right. Or like some of the companies that I work for in the mind, the minds, I know of guys that were able to get time off work and they got to get sent to rehab. Which is amazing, right. Which is a, it's an amazing asset and perk to have on your job. But I mean, like you just said, five minutes ago, you got to want it. There's a lot of people that need it that don't want it. Right. And I wonder what the number would be on people who called to get into one of these rooms that never showed up. Probably a very high number, right?
Speaker 3Yeah, I would think so. The next day, it's not so bad. Yeah, it's sad. Well, that's the, the nature of addiction, right. You know, it's like in the moment I have a crisis, you know, and I want help right now, this second. Yeah. You know, and you talk to somebody two days later, oh, the crisis is averted. Yeah. You know, I got the money. I did. Yeah. I got the money, um, or whatever's happened. Right. And they've, they've been able to kind of like wiggle their way through that loophole. And, uh, but if it, you know, I always say addiction will raise its ugly head. If you've got a drug problem, alcohol problem, and you're entering that crisis kind of, you know, mode of your life. And let's say you've been able to put the, the, the drag into bed for a little while, it'll raise its head again.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 3Right. Unless we do something. Um, and there's lots, you know, there's lots to do. There's, there's lots of room to go. Yeah. Like I work for a place called Jack's Toronto and we'll give Jack's a shout out. Shout out Jack's. And, uh, you know, one of the things that we started right from the day one was remove the blocks and barriers to getting help. You know, if you want help call, um, we'll do an intake with you within 24 hours and you'll have a therapist calling you back. Or emailing you back for your first appointment within 48 hours, because you're right. You know, Caleb, when you say people, they want help now, right. Not in, you know, a month from now and six months from now, you know, on the other hand, sure, get yourself on a wait list, but in the meantime, let's try everything we can to get you some kind of help and reduce the level of harm you're causing in your life.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4Cause I know right now, like when I got to go to rehab, um, like my, my, my father and and my brother come to my house, whatever they are, me to go and i said okay fine i'll go but like give me like a day to get ready yeah i would have oh you would not have gone give me three weeks that's all i need i got stuff to do and he said i'm giving you 20 minutes right pack your bag yeah the best thing he ever did and he was back in like 13 minutes right but for those 13 minutes i didn't pack a single thing i sat there and i made love to my pipe yeah right yeah that's what i did yeah but so like it's so sad it's me guys
Speaker 3taking ketamine yeah they walk in their bedroom to go pack forget what they why they walked into their bedroom come back out and go i think i need a coffee where's your suitcase right oh yeah oh who are you oh yeah and they go in their bedroom you sit there on their bed with them and you're looking at them and they're walking around from closet to dresser to closet wondering why am i in
Speaker 4my bedroom again right yeah for us i know people that watch i've even spoken to my mother about this like oh my god like some of the jokes like but like if you've lived this life yeah and you've seen especially jay jay's been doing this you know you become desensitized yeah jay's been doing this since it becomes funny yeah you have to laugh at some of the stupid things that we do exactly half the time i'm laughing it's i've done worse you get it right yeah yeah but
Speaker 3yeah we all have the same excuses right to make it serious for one more second yeah when it comes
Speaker 4to the to the aspect of waiting times and stuff i think like if you told an addict like okay you got three weeks it wouldn't be such a big deal to tell the addict that but for the mother or the
Speaker 3that's a lifetime well they're in crisis you know so it's so scared you know it's like how do we mitigate that crisis how do we calm you know people down a little bit and and i think you know we give them a plan you know a plan of action that they could follow okay you know a lot of people you know when i do the initial assessment i'll say okay well you know this is the wait time to get into a government facility but why don't we do this why don't we get you on the wait list we'll do the tools or whatever the intake process is and in the meantime let's try and do everything we can you say that you're serious about it let's get you into some groups let's get you connected into some outpatient treatment in the meantime and maybe that three months will come and go and you'll be doing amazing but like i said if you're not doing amazing at least you
Speaker 4have that bed yeah right jay this is usually anthony's part in the episode he usually says this to every guest but i'm gonna steal i'm gonna steal the spotlight i'm gonna ask you this question if there is to one person that how do you work he words this so perfectly but if there's to the person that's out there right now still suffering with addiction hopeless what would you
Speaker 1say to that person what a great question ultra running shoes are all about space the space to go further to feel better to do something you never thought possible and this space starts with ultra fit unlike traditional running shoes ultra fit gives toes more room to move naturally so every step is strong balanced and comfortable whatever you're lacing up for stay out there with ultra shop now at ultra running.com that's a-l-t-r-a running.com
Speaker 3you know well i'll tell you something there's a there's a rabbi named abraham tersky passed away but we asked him that question right and we said uh one of the workshops that he came up to toronto and did um if you you've got 60 days clean and you want to use you want to drink lake ontario you know your your alcohol craving is so vast right and he said something like if using today is going to make tomorrow a better day than go ahead because you can get through the battle of a day you know and i don't know anybody who's uses today that tomorrow is going to be a better day yeah they're going to feel worse they'll feel more ashamed they'll neglect their responsibilities you know there's a lot of different ways to answer that question but i think you know that was one way that kind of made sense to me you know the other one is never give up hope you know no matter how many rehab centers you've gone to no matter how many people you've burned in your life no matter how ashamed you feel of the things we've done uh just don't give up hope and they say hope stands for helping other people everywhere right or every day right and that's a i think people like all of us we help others you know and i think that's a good thing and i think that's a good thing and i think that's a good thing you know we try to um uh make make our world a better place for somebody else so that we can there's nothing better than seeing somebody else do well and know that you had a little bit of a hand in it you know what what a blessing okay that's so true it did genuinely
Speaker 4feel happy for someone i was always envious and jealous when i seen someone doing good but now when i see someone doing good like makes me happy yeah good for you wow you know because i remember
Speaker 2when you weren't doing so well yeah and then also too you're happy that they're in your life you're like wow this guy's in my life and you know i want to do better too right yeah you know yeah the quality of the relationships
Speaker 3yeah improves so much yeah you know and that's where that spiritual component comes in thanks so much jay we appreciate you buddy oh great i'm so happy to come down tonight you're uh you're a
Speaker 4gem it's cool to have you're such like uh i know you don't like when people put you on the stool but like you're starting like you're a role model to recovering addicts and you're very well known person but like you come anytime i see you lost we're pretty close yeah but anytime i see you it's just like just talking to my buddy you never you never have a high ego you never try and talk down to me he's just like just such a guy you know that saying like you want what that person has
Speaker 3well i want what you have oh that's nice thank you what a what a a nice accolade so yeah put that up on the on the fridge yeah yeah i want what you have your girlfriend your car your house the mazda yeah well thanks for coming down jay okay thanks guys thanks for having me
Speaker 6thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone you are not alone you are a part of the family you are a part of the family you are a part of the family
PodcastTranscript AI