What Not To Talk About in Classrooms

Welcome to the Relief Teacher podcast brought to you by Trade Wind Australia. I'm your host Billy Green coming to you from Melbourne situated on the traditional lands of the Warrangery people of the cool nation. In each episode we never get the joys and challenges of relief teaching, sharing insights, stories and strategies to support educators across the country and indeed across the world. Once again I am joined this week by our regular panelists, sum your Helen Tomadis and Terry Tumey. Welcome back to this week's episode of the Relief Teacher podcast and a really interesting topic this week. One that I'm sure is very important but I'm hoping also we might have a little bit of fun maybe with it and that is what not to talk about in classrooms as a CRT. We do realise that sometimes CRTs get themselves into a little bit of bother when particularly students bring up topics that might be best avoided. So welcome back to Sue Helen and Terry. Now I'm not going to put you on the spot early and ask you to please. I'm not going to put you on the spot early and ask you to nominate one of your favourite I shouldn't have said that stories but just keep in mind I might do that at the end but no we won't do that but look it is an important topic because you can inadvertently end up in a whole lot of trouble. If a topic comes up in a classroom and it becomes a trigger for some of the other students in there or some of the students go home and said to mum and dad guess what we talked about in school today and quite clearly there are some topics that we shouldn't really talk about. So again we'll split it a little bit into primary and secondary of those lots of overlap and these but Helen will go to you for a start just some topics off the top of your head that would be red flags for you working as a CRT in a primary school and then we'll talk about how you might manage not talking about them. Well often in primary school there's that whole personal thing about do you have a boyfriend and students wanting to find out more about you and you want to have a relationship with these students don't fall into that trap of responding because your personal life really needs to be kept separate to your work you might say I have a lovely dog and you know her name is Nelly but you don't want to engage on personal aspects of yourself. Now how would you just phrase that say let's pick a class grade three or four quite innocently there they might have read a book about you know my mum and dad and a family and someone says have you got a family of you got a girl friend or a boyfriend what do you do there how do you actually say yeah that's right well we're not going to talk about that now we're going to move on too so you can deflect look you might want to say yes I've got a daughter and I've got a son you might want to say that you need to choose but you've got to determine that how they're asking and what they're asking are they wanting to kind of get into a space that that might be crossing the line so deflect yeah and I think the other thing you can raise quite legitimately with that age group perhaps not so much younger than that but just the idea of privacy that some things are that we have out to talk about and other things that's not appropriate to talk about and I think that's not appropriate here what do you do in that situation Terry or Sue in a secondary Terry I might get you addressed it from a rural point of view because that can be quite different but Sue those sort of personal issues that kids might ask about how do you deflect or what do you do in a secondary school well a bit like dinner table conversations at parties never talk about sex politics or religion and I suppose like Helen you know you just might say look those sort of things are private and we just don't discuss those things they're not for sharing here at school or you know we have to have some boundaries and we're not you know able to discuss those things you know at a secondary level here yeah down here Billy probably you know be very aware of your social media profile I'd suggest you probably would be locking that because kids are be all over your post what they can find out about you if they really want to is anything that's probably available so just be aware of that I think teaching in regional Victoria yeah there are other challenges because you're you know mixing with that community outside of school you might be part of it through sporting clubs and other activities performing arts like whatever you're into so you're teaching the students you know during the day and then interacting with our community and they'll be very aware they'll know and you know they'll know where you live they'll know who your friends are who you come to school with in the morning what days you go to the pub exactly what shape you're in on Saturday night yeah they'll be there too so you want to be you want at all those sort of functions because certainly when I told in the country any student over the age of six three was it every function I ever went to yeah I think in that situation if you come across those as a CRT in particularly if you're working for any length of time so if you get a you know a term in a school or whatever it's not about opportunity to just even use that opportunity to teach the kids that there are some things that are that we discuss in a classroom and that are relevant to discuss and there are other things private things that are off limits and at that age particularly in secondary school it's they should start to learn those things what are and what is it off limits so that's not that's not about I think to teach them anyways it no no I think it's important for them to know what the boundaries are all right that's on the personal thing what about some of the more highly controversial topics that might come up and they might come up in the news for example you know it could be around a conflict or it could be around ethnicities or whatever how what are they how they like to represent in a primary school the way that kids talk about those things and what's the best way to handle them if you're a CRT well often they come mimicking their parents that's what they might have heard at home so for example when all the political thing was happening in the States there was that conversation existing in the plague around I noticed regarding Trump and they might come and ask you what you think and that's another no no don't get yourself caught up in that so again following the same sort of you know advice that we've just been talking about you can say look that's a personal thing everyone's political views are different we're not here to discuss these at school and letting them know again that importance of privacy and where the boundaries lie with different topics and that can be polity Terry I'd imagine that's even a bit more challenging in secondary in playing the straight bat because the kids are you trying to form relationships with say quite you know burgeoning maturities relatively articulate and intelligent young people and they might want to discuss well let's use a political situation and look because it's easy let's use the election of Donald Trump as the president of the United States if they want to talk about those issues how do you manage that in a way that's not going to cause offense the paint yourself into a corner but still acknowledge that the student wants to actually have a decent conversation about those things how do you do that yeah well if it's not sort of in your face I think you've probably respect the fact that you know the kids may have strong and informed views about the particular topic anyway Billy this was my field as a teacher going back you know to our politics very very very very very long time so I think it's a suggestive before I think soon talk about setting the boundaries and I think you've got to do that you've got to be respectful of people's views you've got to create a safe space where people can talk openly and honestly but also respect the views of others and I think you've got to say at the beginning what's in and what's out in terms of what you're prepared to listen to how long in a primary setting that's quite different I mentioned for secondary because you know they're younger and their parents have the the overarching you know control as to what they want their children exposed to or not and I think the the distinctions quite big here because like Billy said in secondary they're exploring their forming opinions and they go into that really thinking and discuss in discussion yeah time but in primary you have to be really careful because parents might have particularly strong views about something that they don't want their children exposed you so it's not the forum in the primary setting I think in the other one that we can talk about then is what about issues around race and religious themes so we know that there are as I say I tell you may be you might have days at particular schools that are denominational and quite you know for example they might be islamic school and there might be you know orthodox Jewish schools and they will certainly have some rules and guidelines around what you can and can't discuss there and they may be broader than what you would so it's really important that you are across those but just in a mainstream school how do you in particularly again secondary so racial and religious themes and issues and how do you go about saying to the kids well you know that's not how we want to talk or how do you manage that if it's in the context of you know the history lesson I suppose it's open for discussion again with with respectful boundaries if children are just speaking about it randomly I would invite the particular students perhaps to stay back or come back at lunchtime and have the discussion I would be very surprised if they came back at lunchtime to have the discussion so yeah I would certainly put a lid on it yeah Terry substance abuse is another one topics around alcohol whether it be prescription or elicit drugs that's another one to say RT could inadvertently get themselves into all sorts of trouble with yeah more and feel belly so unless it's explicitly part of the curriculum that you're delivering that day then I'll be steering very clear of that so you can get yourself in a lot of trouble just even if you're best intentions in terms of talking about you know wishes around harm minimisation for example it might be your team kids talking about you know a weekend they went out and even if you with the best of intentions talked about how they might reduce their harm if they're out drinking or using drugs that's still going to be controversial for some parents to do with isn't I think it's a very controversial topic and I don't think it's one that see our teen a 50-minute lesson would want to raise however if there are kids talking about that and your ears are flapping I think it's probably wise to tune in you know and then perhaps you could report it you know back to the particular year-level coordinator or well-being people but you know I would try to perhaps suggest that the kids it's not the appropriate venue to discuss that yeah Billy there is an idea where you are but it's a little too you can have probably unintended consequences of it and they may well be that because you've entertained that that you're promoting it which is nothing could be further than the truth but nevertheless it could be perceived that way and particularly if you don't know the kids you're working with which is typical the cases of CRT you might be thinking of what you're saying mean something whereas they can quickly pick up the opposite how on the other one that's really important for primary students and we've discussed this before other podcasts primary students particularly you know younger ones 7 8 9 issues around illness violence they can be real triggers for anxiety for a lot of students and even though you might be doing the right thing as a CRT anything to do with health issues and particularly around their parents that can be a major problem for primary kids very much so and again you don't know those students you don't know their background so you have to really avoid those kind of conversations because they could be triggering they could have been a death in the family or they could be a a parent who's got a terminal illness so you've got to be really careful so you don't want to be triggering students and I suppose triggers in secondary be just the same so you might be left to run a health and human class that covers those sort of topics and and then that sets off discussion so you just need to again be mindful of what you're left and how that's going to impact the class and then if it is triggering for students you know know who to forward that information across to and again put in appropriate boundaries because in a primary setting they can just all spin off on another so one child says something and then and then there's this whole class kind of my uncle and my grandfather and and you go into this spiral of you've got to avoid that so you need to be able to take that control and say we won't be discussing and I think that's a really great example Helen Terry you might go in with the best of intentions of listening to and engaging with a particular student who raises the topic but then it can become almost a mob free for all of everyone telling their own story and the stories can get more and more triggering absolutely and then ultimately you're responsible for that yeah and that can be out of your control I mean the work can be left and it might be on a topic of grief and loss and then as Helen says you know it goes from one to the other to the other and all of a sudden the whole class is talking about when my grandfather died and then there's tears and and it's you've lost it I think you have to think about your own comfort zone as well and if let's just say that lesson was left and you're really uncomfortable in that space I feel that it's okay to say in your notes I didn't follow through because I noticed that everyone was becoming quite distressed and I think you're well within your rights you don't know the students you don't have the background feel confident to back yourself and not put yourself into that space where you're not comfortable I think that applies to Terry and you and Sue have a lot of experience with this but even Helen and I have some experience with it and that is if there's been a serious illness or a bereavement at the school and you are asked to address the students and explain what has happened now quite often you'll get some good information and the communications will be quite specific about what your student shouldn't say but picking up Helen's point if you don't feel comfortable with that delivering that information to a class you would be better off Helen saying but I don't feel comfortable with this would you I'll take your class and if you could come in here is that the best approach? Absolutely yeah definitely and your colleagues will respect that. Yeah Sue and Terry is that similar in a secondary? Yeah I certainly would say that look this is just not something I feel comfortable with and could somebody else take take it for me here? Yeah I mean like and similarly Billy if you're getting groups of kids together you know more than you know one class and that whoever's delivering the message I think it's it's critical that not I have a script if it's it's well scripted that particular message but generally speaking experiences Sue and I have had the people that know the kids best are actually their teachers so they've got that pre-existing relationship with them you utilize that if they're comfortable there. And I would say to you know as Terry says I would never deliver something to a whole class you know I did you know if there was something some sort of tragedy that had occurred I'd deliver it you know just to the the friends of the immediate you know you know group and and then go from there you know I don't know that a whole class delivery is necessary it's certainly not a whole school assembly. Yeah I look Billy I had experience that going going back a while before I work with Sue at another school where you know tragically a senior student passed away over the weekend in an accident and we just took the position where we went into the school on the Sunday afternoon and Sunday evening and may contact with every single family and did that personally so the kids came to the school with the information that they were informed we also talked about what would be in place at the school in terms of support the next day so we didn't have to deliver the news and I think that's a really good lesson for all CRTs that when things like that do happen the schools are in the best position to make those decisions and you are best guided by them don't take those things and do it off your own bat even if you've got experience even if that's something that you know well yourself it's still way better to be guided by what the schools chosen to do I think the other thing is really important in these situations Helen and it's a bit of a strange idea but you need to be almost have a sort of a mind map in the sense of a kid comes along with a story in the morning about a crime or some violence or something's happened you need to be starting to think alright this is relatively innocent at the moment but where might this discussion end up and because as Sue and Terry mentioned before if you let it get out of hand it's too hard to pull it back and the damage has been done once there's once some things are said that you can't unhear them they can't unsay them and some of the kids are triggered so if a kid comes along talks about a a crime that might have happened in his street or something that they saw on the news you've got to think at what point do you pull that up and it has to be probably earlier rather than later absolutely put it up pull it up early and say we might leave that there but you and I'll have a chat with you later so you're not discounting the child but you do not want that as a you know morning news discussion which it potentially is leading towards cut it right at the beginning but acknowledge the child and then go and talk to them later and so I'd imagine in a secondary school you'd have the issues are really sensitive issues say around gender around identity around sexuality even around self-harm again even if you're just touching on those and you want to legitimise and acknowledge a student's who's raised those issues you have to also then start to project about where's this going to end up though yeah very quickly because you certainly don't want a child to disclose that they're feeling like they need to transition in front of the whole class because that that can only end in tears so you need to be empathetic as Helen says and you know let the child know that you're feeling for them but perhaps it's a discussion that you and the child will have at a later point and again Helen in all those situations it's probably really worthwhile that if something does come up that's controversial that's potentially problematic that's potentially triggering you your own best defence would be to note some of that and what you did how you tried to de-escalate it and certainly let the rest of the school know because you don't want to go home at the end of the day and find that you've left a trail of carnage behind you. You've got to protect you're protecting yourself in that space as well and that's actually really important like you're not likely to come back or you may but leaving the notes and even popping into that office and saying just want to let you know I've left notes but this happened with this student I think that's really important really important and particularly if what happened inadvertently triggered other students and you're not going to be there the next day but tell you the school or so the school's going to have to do with it I think that's right yeah yeah you don't want to unwittingly really create an environment where somebody reveals something that they will later regret and don't see that so there's some really of some of the big topics that you need to be aware of you need to bring your maturity to it you need to make sure that you can forecast and think oh this is going to potentially be dangerous here I need to you know get out of this but what do we do and this is probably more likely to happen again in a secondary situation than a primary situation whether it's a legitimate lesson that's come up and it could happen in the primary around health issues Helen and you know body shape all that sort of stuff so it's a legitimate issue it might be around nutrition for example the legitimate issue that you're going to discuss so how do you what are some of the boundaries that you set how do you set those boundaries so that the kids don't strain to the wrong areas or that the situation doesn't go out of hand I'll give you another example so it might be in a geography class in year nine and you're talking about native bush land and how it's being destroyed by feral animals and there's a culling program so it's obviously going to be quite controversial you know the animals are going to be you know the poison or shot or whatever that's triggering potentially but it is part of discussions that might need to be so whatever it is if it's legitimate and it's on the curriculum you've been asked to take it what are some of the guidelines that a CRT should follow so in a second you do it again I suppose you give the disclaimer before you start you know that some of the the discussions could be triggering and if you feel that you know it'll raise some emotions within you then you know these are the options you might be able to leave the classroom you might be able to go and speak to your coordinator you perhaps could go and see somebody in the wellbeing team you might be able to step outside and have a breather that you need to be respectful of everybody else's opinions you know that everybody will have an opportunity to say and give their point of you you know not to shout at each other etc etc yeah I think that's really important and we'll come to the primary one I remember working in road safety for a number of years and we had a program for year 10s and of course road safety is potentially we're talking about road deaths and one of the first things that we trained our facilitators to do was to give a trigger warning because you never know that there could be students in the class that have experienced road trauma and bringing it up and discussing it which was part of the curriculum it wasn't anything outside of the curriculum was potentially a problem so we as Sue said get on the front foot with those things Helen in a primary setting if those issues somewhat controversial but you're still going to need to discuss them how do you manage that I think the same applies as what Sue said you begin by alerting the students about what we're going to be talking about that there might be some things that might be upsetting and that we are doing this because it's part of our lesson and we're going to have opinions pretty much following the same sort of principle as you would in your in the secondary space giving them opportunity to maybe have a breather but again you've got to be careful with that because then of course certainly the primary and it might be the same as you should you can create that whole kind of drama like where students automatically feel so immersed in the emotion of it and they will need to get out so you've got to avoid that as well the contagion yes yes yes Terry how do you keep discussions like that that might become quite emotional for young students so we're talking about secondary kids that can get quite you know really passionate about certain issues and you know I don't necessarily want to raise particular issues but let's say around Black Lives Matter for example I get quite emotional about that or there could be environmental issues how do you stop that from deteriorating into a shouting match or you know a really antagonistic in a highly emotional sort of situation in the classroom yeah we can't once it started Billy so you've got to predict the future and if that's likely to occur then I think you've got to take charge of that in your introduction in in terms of all the guidelines and disclaimers you'll put out there before the discussion and I think you know you've got to cover yourself basically because you might need to hide behind that at the end but I think you'd be able to notice with the students in terms of you know what's permissible and what's not and also what's likely to trigger and if that's the case then it's probably best left unsaid hell and in a situation in a primary school where you might have one child maybe two children who express a particular point of view but the rest of the class oh how do you manage that so that they it doesn't become victimisation that they're still heard respected but you know but and just say their opinions are probably just say they're inappropriate anyway but how do you manage that again you you have to take charge you're in control you're the one that's running the show so there's a number of ways you might obviously tell those Yahoo is that no everyone's entitled to their opinion allow that to happen but if you feel that it's getting out of control I think you can decide to wrap it up because if it's going to become potentially problematic being a person that's in charge you need to to make it work so something like well no we've got to listen to everybody everyone has is entitled to their opinion and it keeps going and then you can simply say well we're going to leave it there because we don't want to go further and just everyone's entitled to the opinion that we're just going to leave it yeah no I think that's fabulous it works it comes to where she pull the pin yeah yeah you don't want you you want to de-escalate because some of those things are really good in terms of say I think because you've got that full class involvement which is what it really what you want that's a great day but I think you've got to make sure that you don't try it off full class involvement for something that's going to like trigger all sorts of problems and you won't be able to get it from that you know you perhaps if it was something that you know you could then work on a plan but if you're not going to be that follow it up you don't want to leave coming yeah and the classroom teachers not going to thank you are like no all right I know well this has been a really interesting topic I'll let I won't set you unnecessarily a question but no no that's sort of but just either a bit of advice or a story that you you could share to wrap it up if you if a situation like this has come up and you thought oh I've really got to get out I've got to really quiet in this down all is there anything that comes to mind but if not just a piece of advice I'll go first and get it does go back to those topics I discussed around road safety what we would always do was we would check with the school prior to going out and I would check with the class teacher and just say look this is not necessarily vital but we would show car crashes and it was about preparation and because we did prepare sometimes a student would step out and they might come back 15 minutes later and the worst of it was probably over so I think that notion of if you know what's coming in you can prepare for or I think that's probably useful howling in a primary view anyone please advice a story I think the most important thing is to recognise that you're there to manage your in charge you've got to take control so at any point in time you feel like you're losing that because things are escalating because a conversation has taken a different turn you need to pull it back in so my advice would be even though it might be on the curriculum if you're feeling out of your comfort zone call it stop it and and take charge again yeah if you're going to play in this space Billy I think be prepared for the unexpected and then respond accordingly I think so all that you have the point of view oh gosh now I feel really under pressure um well I I often run small group programs and I do like a healthy robust conversations amongst them but a bit like Terry sometimes I can feel the the temperature in the room rising when I've got you know seven or eight girls from the challenging girls program having a go at each other but sometimes that's not a bad thing but no I went to pull the pin yeah alright fascinating topic it is a little fraught out there for CRTs you know be very much on your guard be prepared and as we've said if it's if you think you out of your depth just buy a lot of it or get some help but thanks again and Sue and Helen Terry fantastic wisdom yeah really great to share that with you thanks a lot thank you for listening to the Relief Teachers podcast brought to you by Trade Wind Australia please do share this podcast with anybody who you think may find it useful and if you are in Victoria refer to the show notes on how to record it as a professional development if you want to join our weekly webinars or looking for teaching opportunities in Victoria Queensland or New South 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