What Most Coworking Brands Still Get Wrong About Hospitality

Welcome back to Brave Ideas, where we chat with the leaders in commercial real estate to answer all questions, space as a service. And help office real estate, reposition to meet the evolving demand from the future of work. If you're an investor, fund manager, developer, landlord, operator, property manager, agent or broker, hit that subscribe button. If you prefer to watch or join the newsletter, head over to braveideas.media. I'm your host Kayla Parker, and for this episode, I want to give a big thank you to the team of Mute for hosting us in their showroom in Clarkwell London for this episode. We're going to include a link into the show notes from Mute. My guest for this episode is James Penipinto, group and silvery revenue manager at Clockwise, and a strong voice in our industry on hospitality, community and experience led co-working. Joining me as co-host for this episode is Alaskar, CEO of FlexSpace AI, our head-on sponsor this season. James and I go back a few years, we open bold up and Manchester, and in that time, one thing has become very clear to me. He has strong views on why co-working is not just service office with better furniture. For James, this is a hospitality product, and if operators do not understand that, they're going to get left behind. In this episode, we talk about what hospitality really means in a workplace setting. Not as a slogan, but in the small, practical details that shape how people feel in a space every single day. Some how members are greeted, to how rooms are reset, to how teams remember preferences, and create a sense of care. James explains why hospitality is not one grand gesture, but the accumulation of hundreds of small ones. We also get into the link between hospitality and performance, how community draws attention, and why programming has to evolve with the people in the building and how strong operational systems can free up teams to spend more time doing the human work that actually matters. We also go deep on one of the most important themes in this season, how the best co-working brands create better economics, by building places where people feel they belong, feel looked after, and want to stay in return to. Before we jump into the full conversation, here's a quick shout out for our headline sponsor, FlexBase AI. If you're a Flex operator, still juggling spreadsheets and manual rate sheets, stop. You don't need to be a wizard to outsmart the big guys. You just need FlexBase AI. It's your AI-powered revenue team that never sleeps, optimizing prices, automating marketing, and filling your space while you focus on your members. No burnout, no guesswork, no what-if-tabs at 2am. With FlexBase AI, your building works as smart as you do. Now head over to flexbase.ai/brave and start growing your revenue today. Without further ado, let's jump into this episode of James. James, welcome to Brave Ideas. Thank you for having me. Good to be here. It is great to be here. Another episode in the mute showroom in Clurkinwell with Al here from FlexBase. Going to be our co-host again. James, we've done a one podcast in the past. In our previous life together, we worked on a co-working space up in Manchester and Spinningfields. I have to say, I've grown accustomed to your beard over the years and you still want to have what it's name is. It's grown on me, if I'm else. Ask over the ears. It takes many different forms. I feel like it's like the talking point all the time. Every time we have a meeting with somebody new. I'd like to say it's the entirety of my reputation and I don't think I'll be here today if it wasn't for my beard. If there's one thing it's beard and I'm happy to base my entire personality on the fact that I am bearded. It's interesting to me is that it's obviously clearly a personal brand thing and you can who you are when somebody walks in. When you walk in the room, you see you in LinkedIn. What I didn't expect is when you moved to clockwise, I didn't know that you were going to make the HR policy that you have to hire bearded people. Obviously, shout out to your new chief commercial officer, Greg. I like to say I said the precedent, but Greg and many others in the clockwise team has very good taste in terms of how the faces of the dress. Obviously being funny here, but I was thankful that when you introduced me to Scarlett yesterday at Juicy, she didn't have a beard like yours. No, she's tried. Believe over the years, but in Scarlett, no, but a special shout out to Scarlett, particularly she just hit 100% occupancy this week. In Bristol? Yeah, Bristol, absolutely killing what she's doing. We sat in the standard for the city down there. Just needs to work on the beard skills. I think I've learned more from you after a couple of years we worked together. You've been writing articles on Brave Ideas. We've been catching up on your career progress at clockwise, but what you're doing for community at clockwise and the hospitality approach you take, to me, those two things combined, amplify the clockwise brand. I want to just have a chat around that because you've got some strong opinions. In a nutshell, if you could define, I don't know, one line or two lines, what is hospitality? One line is hard, but hospitality is not a physical, tangible item. It's how one feels whilst interacting with something. I think people try and interact and interchange service and hospitality. I think the two entirely different things. Hospitality is an experience that one has whilst interacting with a service or a product. So are we in the service office industry, service, or are we in the hospitality industry? Hospitality. Co-working is a hospitality product all day and all day. I think anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I think there is a service office industry. I don't think co-working is within parameters of the space. What are you doing on a practical basis, on a day-to-day basis? I want to maybe give a hat tip to a recent article you wrote. You said it's not some big statement. It's not what it is in the way. Yeah, hospitality is not one grand big gesture. It's something I've spoken about. I'd like to think it's my profound statement. When you look at a restaurant, you outweigh something called set standards of service. That basically lists from inception all the way down to the bottom of every touch point that a customer may have during the point of service. Then applying that same principle to co-working, how does one interact with the entrance team? How do you book a space? How does the space walk an entry? What can you see? What can you smell? What can you hear? Something to broken. How quickly is that fixed? You leave the meeting room and how quickly is the glass put back in the position it was. I don't think that if you walked into a space and then there was a banner with your name and a red carpet out, it would have the same weight as if you walked into a space and hey, K.O. with great to see you. I've got a flat white on the table ready for you. I remember you wanted oak milk and here it is and ready to go. I think that sentiment would resonate a lot higher than that one big grand gesture. I mean, it's how you make people feel exactly what you said. It's a feeling. I don't want to call this devil the advocate, but we're also in the real estate industry. There's a lot of real estate people that I think maybe discount this a bit. But did they disagree? But it's maybe not the priority. Why is it the priority? The industry's changed so much over the years. Everyone's seen it. There's so many operators in the game now. There's so many non-flex people coming into flex and we even see a lot of hospitality operators and now coming into the space, looking at convenes recently, they've rebranded themselves as a hospitality company. You look at the likes of Hawxton, which at Coors Hotel Business. Now I'm moving co-working. If you want to stand out in a very, very, very difficult field, one of the ways to do so is to give that hospitality and service. If you want to set up and do a business center or a business site and then you want it purely transactional, you're checking it from there. There's your room off you go. Wonderful. Great. That's not co-working. That's not hospitality. That's not really the way the industry is working towards. And if you don't take this hospitality or service or experience side series, you just can get left behind or you're not going to be able to charge the rents or the premium that one would expect, you know, widely that you need to be to hit in order to pay, whoever you need to pay out. I've said this many times on this podcast that the future of office or the co-working industry looks like the hotel industry. And what do people want? Companies want people back in the office, but it's not a good look to mandate that they come. People need to want to be there and companies need to understand that they might not come every day. That's becoming sort of a cliche statement now. But what I believe is that people want a place that they can go and they feel like they belong. You know, we heard that at Juicy yesterday. They also want to feel like they're taken care of. They want to feel taken care of by the team that's there. They want to feel taken care of by their company. Because their company chose that place because they know they're going to feel taken care of. And to me, feeling like you belong requires the community, feeling taken care of requires the hospitality. And going back to what I said earlier, those two combined, if you're delivering community and hospitality for a specific target customer that's aligned with your values, then that's what creates brand. So how are you taking hospitality and community to amplify the clockwise brand? It's a clockwise. I mean, it's a statement that always gets thrown around. It's more than just a desk or you're not just paying for a desk and Wi-Fi. And I think one of the core values of clockwise is that you can go and get a desk anyway. I can go to Starbucks now. I've got the cut Wi-Fi. They've got PowerPoint, so you're USB sockets. to go to coffee, there's music, there's some sad next to me who's doing whatever it is that they're doing. Why would I want to come somewhere like clockwise is because you do get the genuine hospitality and you do get the genuine community. You do get the team who know who you want, what you do, and genuinely care. I can't think of one individual costing entirety of the clockwise portfolio. That doesn't care about the members within the building, but almost resonates on a personal level. It's not fabricated, there's no HR and doctoration that you need to hit, X, Y and Z, KPI in order to consider yourself a community team. It's every silent team in every silent level and head office and everyone else really has this general feeling of positivity towards that community. And really want to cultivate that and build it up in their own individual locations. I know this caring, it reminds me of the care bears. We get those things shooting up your bellies and stuff, but I think there's 100% truth to that and that comes out in every single touch point down to the details you were describing earlier. But I think it also goes into not just reactive, but proactive and coral, the last speaker at Juicy yesterday was talking about how to program out ways to make people feel that they belong and that you care. How do you see that working? Personalization. You and I have discussed it many times and back when we were together, we always discussed that it's again, just a name drop something that always gets named dropped. It's a cultivation of community, it's an ecosystem at a DAPS, it evolves, you have to move with it once you start centrally mandating that every Thursday, we need to have Quick Books 101 session in meeting with one, that's when the community and the reality and the genuine stuff fails, you need to meet the community where they are and where they are going and you just need to be that versatile and forever changing and that's where the spot that needs to be working towards is. How do you know what they want and where they're going? Speak to them. Ask them. They're there, the members of the community, you are part of that community, you pass them in the hallways, you put them in and it fails tremendously because no one shows up, don't put the same event on three times more than that. Dave's can you sort of go more into the tangible aspects of how you're delivering this at clock wise? Yeah, so a really key example of clock wise is we have our own hospitality brand called Two Hands, which sits predominantly in our communal space called the club lounge, which becomes the anchor point for our community spaces. It's a place that people congregate, it's people where people interact, it's where the vast majority that our community engagement then fly is because that's the key area of the space. It's space that changes and evolves throughout the day and changing and evolve depending on the events. We bring it a forest and the table moves from here to there, we have a network and session all the tables go out. It's becoming almost a joke now, specifically in Manchester, how quickly we can change the room three, four, five times a day even to help activate and move the spaces around to match the community or what's going on in the area. So another thing that we do specifically in Manchester and throughout the clock wise brand is we align ourselves with organisations and individuals that where we see similar energies, similar cohesiveness and we partner with them to host or co-host events within the community space. We do stuff in Manchester to find a coffee club where every month they host a network in session for founders throughout the Manchester scene, they could come to space. We work with the institute directors which utilize Manchester as a hub for their members and in turn our members interact with them and it really adds that sort of community because it's not the same people every day, it's not James putting on his events programme which as much as I like it to be differentiation every single day and every single year, it can sort of go over each other and by adding those elements it's layering it on top of the foundations or it's been put in place to really add that value to the people who won't come to every event but that one or two events they do interact with does get that value from. Can you teach community building? I mean every community manager at every building, right, is a different person with a different personality but is there a training or a programme that you run at the clock wise to kind of have this cohesive community experience? Could I sit there and write a book and a manual of community and there's a community book going full the step, 1, 2, 3, 4 and you've got a successful community. No. Could you write a book on how to launch a business and make it successful? It all depends on the individual and again going back to the individual has to care, it has to be genuine, you can't force community, you can't put it in a bottle and you know add water and then there you go, you're good to go. You can teach people and how to react, how to move and how to read the ones, the people that you are working alongside and again meet them where they are but something I always go back to and something when my, sorry, another shower of the thing is my community leading Manchester. One of the questions that we always ask is what value is this event or community engagement is adding to the ecosystem, what we're doing. If you were to put on a drinks evening once a month every month and bring in a drinks car and off you go go and have fun. But is that a community, is that a community event or is that just a drinks car? Where's the win? Where's the return on this? Where's the value? Why can one go to this event with all of the clock wise and not go down the road to another operating? Do the exact same with them. The biggest challenge I think to me because we're in real estate and hospitality and where they overlap. We've got to make sure that it is a business and it's performing. And so as a general manager, as a community manager, how do you balance playing in the spreadsheets and delivering this human touch and knowing everybody's names and being proactive to make sure that they feel taken care of? Right. Like it's siloed. Like it's one or the other. It's not. It's the same thing. So by layering this service model, this hospitality model, this model, it leads into retention. It leads into renewal rates. It reads into demanding higher desk rates than less hospitality, less events forward operated down the road. So by having this built into your cost modeling and your projections and your your your turn rates, it helps ultimately. We are in real estate. We are a business we have to make money. It's like saying to a chef, it's like, let's do the best filled food in the entire world. But you put it is there's nothing. So there's not much you can do. No. Yes. But I need to get a deeper answer from you on this because I won't name names here, but in in our previous life, you know, I wanted you to spend maybe I would have been happy you spent 99% of your time with the members in the community, the horizontal community around the building, bring people in putting on these amazing, but you also needed to spend time on the operational aspects of the business. Yeah. So how do you find the balance between the two and not compromise? Before I worked in the industry, I worked in hospitality, bars, restaurants, solar fun things. I was the general manager of a bar in Angcox and Chester. The owner of the restaurant used to ask me, why do you spend so much time behind a bar curating these drinks programs when you need to pay roll? Yeah. I had fantastic bartenders. I had great mixologist and great guys and girls who knew their stuff. And I wasn't utilising them in North to put out this drinks program. Equally now, I have a very good team. I'm very, very blessed to have such a great team. It's a clockwise Manchester. Everyone has their lane, everyone has their role. Everyone has the autonomy and power because I trust them to pull off and execute everything that needs to put off. And by doing so, it allows me to take that step back to look at it from a more strategic point of view, to look at it from more of a portion of the right direction kind of view rather than spending my time fighting fires and getting in and amongst them. So I do have the ability to jump in and jump out where I need to, but really focus where the business needs me to focus on. You mentioned before that community building translates into business results like retention, sticking as average desk rate. And before we started recording, you said that you're just working on the budget for next year. So I'm just curious how, so this is kind of the connection between the spreadsheet and the community aspect of it. How do you now thinking about budget for 26? Where do you budget or how are you thinking about events and community building and how it ties back to the business results? So wonderful question. It's you look at the industry average. of churn rate and the likelihood that someone may or may not leave the business. I know, or we know we can, in order to match rising costs, we need to do renewal retention based on the retention rate and the new rate, I can sort of broadly estimate where, where I'm going to be. I walk at the Manchester market, I say, what everyone else is doing. I understand their deserates and their pricing and what they're offering over and I. There's been some wonderful spaces open much over the last year, but that has really kicked the industry to sort of step up and look at what we can doing. I look at where my budget needs to lay out over the last year, where's been successful and do I need to replicate that going to come in year in order to do that retention. We've seen in, clockwise, much specifically, jump a surge almost in very specific industry within the location legal, which is great. We do now have a home to six legal companies. We're now with an R-adapting, R-Events and Community Engagement Program to be better suited to those from the legal possession, rather than historically, which may have been marketing or start-up to those renoial ships. By doing so, we can continue to retain the deserates that we are on. That's interesting to me and I've always, you know, I've had this debate with Ian a little bit, if we get too much of one category, does that sway things in the location or do you be flexible or do you maintain flexibility to cater to that particular category? When it comes to brand, if you do grow in one category like that, how do you ensure you can maintain that flexibility, but not compromise the brand values? Yeah. So, clockwise as a whole, we don't specialize in a particular field or industry or whatever level we do have up to now very broad mix of businesses at levels of different backings. If you, if you did a full stack or a full full full play of, again, recruitment companies, for example, it could be detrimental to the brand, to the building, to the space. You do have multiple people working the same space. We could even be competing with another there, and that doesn't give that coherent feeling. If you do get to it, the wonderful high occupancy rate where you can't start becomes slightly more picky with who comes in or which leads to pursue, which areas to pursue, you are still able to cure right now. There was an event I went to with spaces to places a few weeks ago in London, and they had a report called, I think, the Voice of the Customer Report. So, it broke down the different brands and different customer demand and what type of products they're getting and what brands are going into all this stuff, right? And there was a panel of a couple of different operators and I think it was that good man who was on the panel from TSP and he talked about how he thinks the niche category co-working brands where they're catering like space mage going really deep on one particular category in a couple of their locations. And Zach's position is we're opened to anyone, but we're not going to cater. We're going to give them a base. Here's what we provide to you base and here's what you can customize around that. And his position was that the niche categorization is okay and the, I guess, generic offering is okay. There's plenty of room for all of the above. You agree with that? Yes, I know. Again, just to be diplomatic. You don't have to be diplomatic. If you're trying to cater to everyone, you could default on the traffic case or into no one. And that's not what I'm saying. But, equally, if you go down a very specific niche, the market might not get that or you might not meet the market. I think the idea is, touch your back, what we discussed about community is being versatile and adapting. I'm not going to sit here and do the budget for next year and lay out 12 months of events programming or community engagement because now from four months and now that could drastically change and then we could have an uplift of startups and then we would look at startups and entrepreneurship programs and so on and so forth. I do feel if you commit to commit, if you are going down the media, if you are going down the content creation, hit it, don't do it half, don't do it. Yeah, I promise you we are about content creation and then have one podcast studio in the basement somewhere. I get lost. If you have certain values, you want to track customers that are aligned with those values, you're going to deliver hospitality and community for those people. You sort of have to curate your programming and so therefore if you're going to go hard on a brand led offering, I believe could be wrong and I don't think it has to be zero sum. I believe if you go that route, you have to plan out for the next year. So when you're trapped, this customer didn't know what they're going to get. That's not to say this approach is the wrong approach for you or for anyone else, but what's your views on that? I would ask you the question. Do you? If you again, it's relative, it's close to home, but if you were to set up a brand that caches purely to entrepreneurship and startups and businesses and then you and I sat at the rooms and we're going to want this brand, we're going to want this building, we're going to have X amount of members and growth rates in all this. And then we sat them there to track community program. We're going to do Instagram marketing masterclass, every single month we're going to bring in a brand expert. They're going to sit in a room, people are going to drop in and then that's going to be work. But then we launch and all the startups are coming in are marketing startup companies who don't give a shit about Instagram marketing because why are you telling me something? I don't know. I already know. We've catered to the entrepreneur, we've sat there and we thought what do entrepreneurs need, but then we didn't adapt to our community that's in the space. Therefore, the community events failed. So although you can broadly structure a community engagement program, a right round what you envision your community to be, stagnancy is going to kill you because you've not adapted to or listen to your community. So do you know more than your community, you more than your customer base? No, change it. This is why I like you James. Thank you. You always make me think differently and reminds me of something Dan Harvey from C.B.R.E. and San Francisco said he has strong opinions held loosely. Yeah, absolutely. Could I look now? Okay, so you're looking at your 26 budgets. Yeah. You guys are just taking on some more space, growing the footprint. You've got a cell, private offices, you've got co-working memberships, you've got meeting rooms, events. Is your aim to get 100% occupancy and all of your incomes coming from those people? How much business do you do with externals? I don't think anyone wants to be 100% all the time. It bottlenecks everything. It again, just keep going over it. Flexibility, it kills you with flexibility. It doesn't work. You don't have room for people to grow. We don't have room for people to come up through through the products. I think generally the goal is to be obviously busy and often pay bills and get everything sorted and everyone happy who needs to be happy in the accounts team and everything's green on their scorecards and the KPI scenes. But ultimately, I think it's to we are an office business. We do predominantly rely on offices, but it's looking at the additional revenue and such as co-working, the transient day passes, the meeting rooms, the internal and external events. Why do we need to close the office at 5 o'clock and go home? When we've got this beautiful space at City and Empty across the class, we do weddings, we do networking, we do food pop-ups, we do paint and sit classes, dance classes, we have bars, we have restrooms. It's all this beautiful space that's trying to be utilized in the best physical way possible and maintaining that balance between your internal community and also your wider business community in the industry and the networks that you're working. Going back to the founders network, they are a network of founders across Manchester. They're not necessary fixed members or fixed members of the clockwise Manchester community, but because this is on, they do get brought into the building and in turn become wider members of the community. Well, it gets complex when you have these wider members of the community. You've got the balance with your members and then the budget you need to hit. You don't want to get 100% occupancy because you need to leave room for the externals because presumably they're going to pay more anyways for assuming us a shorter time period. How do you look at that from a pricing strategy? How do you balance the in between? If you turn around to me now and go right over every of the one you should focus on events, external events, and I go away and I work really hard and many late hours and we get to every session I need to get to to bring people in the building and then every single day I've got a big network and session downstairs, I take up all the community space and take all the coffee space and put events on what music is going to piss everyone off. You all bring people into their space, paying to be part of the community and I'm favouring an external then over there. If you sell me to rent an apartment and you're moving upstairs, but then I sell the ground floor to a nightclub, you're not going to want to stay there as often as you can. It's all about finding that right. That once again, and I have made mistakes, I have overexerted both ways, it's learning adapting and moving forwards. So why are you here? I'd love to ask you a question if I may. Something that I always want to know about and like to know more about is how I can better balance and structure my pricing specifically, not just thick spaces, but also the transient the meeting rooms. Yeah, so and I think that's where technology is really doing a good job because for you, Right, the F4 that you need to put to understand. then gather collecting analyze market data. >> It's huge. >> Absolutely. >> And that's also can change months over months, or there's like a discadence of change that the data that you gather can be already old and you cannot use it anymore, not relevant in a couple of weeks or a couple of months. So what technology is doing, what technology is powerful is just to give you the power, the tools to gather data, analyze it, right? And come back with the most impactful insights in real time, 24/7, right? So instead of you spending the time and effort to eventually come back with an answer that might be already not up to date. >> Sometimes it's a guess as well. Sometimes it's, we've found this report, this data, and we've tried to do a guess and it's not in the air and saying, hey, I saw all that. >> Right, so now you have this like superpower, right? You have this like 24/7 assistance, if you will, business assistance that does this work for you, right, and comes back and always kind of find the most updated price point for your space, for your location, and for the customers that are coming and looking into looking your space. >> Did I answer your question? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I generally think that as an industry, we need to move towards, why the hotels do that? >> Right, so we talked about hospitality, and obviously you're coming from the hospitality industry. And I think we all collectively are trying to push our industry into more like become more similar to hospitality. And dynamic pricing is a core tenant in hospitality, right? Therefore, you know, I think now is really the time for us to start pushing and having this concept, because eventually it's better for the operators, but it's also better for the customers. >> Great. You know, it's just fine. I'm really glad to see where this can go in the industry. I really hope a lot of people can pick up this, this type of pricing. We talk about providing all this information for them to make intelligent decisions from a smart pricing perspective. But how does that work practically? Like, how are you gathering this data and then presenting it back to James? >> So we integrate with your backend system, with your property management system. We extract all the past data. We feed that into the AI model, which will then create a predictive analytics into how your prices and your demand and supply will look into the future. And then on a real time, every day, it will test the projection versus the reality, layer on top of that market data. And that's how you will get the price point for each asset that you have in your portfolio. >> Can I use that to protect future trends? >> Yeah, definitely. So the model that's the model every day, the model runs, and the outcome is six months price prediction into the future. And that's being updated every day. So every day, you get six months prediction of how your demand is going to look like. >> Takes a guess what I can. Takes a lot of work out. >> Yeah. And with every interaction, the model updates, the numbers and the update itself. So every day, we get a new set of data from how many people are looking at your spaces, how many converted, how many did not convert. What price point have they seen to convert or not? So all of this data goes back into the model. So every day, it gets better and better and better based on analyzing your actual users' websites, visitors, and the people that come and book the space. >> So we've got the system. It's predicted. The price and it's predicted there. The flow for the six months. Do I then need to go on to eat individual site teams, sign manual, date each assay, or? >> No. So the price will be automatically updated into the e-commerce platform. So into the user flow. But when the user, and again, that's really much similar to how you come in room at hotel. So you start the journey, you open the date picker, you see the different prices. That's the same how our e-commerce platform works, where the prices are just being automatically updated without you needing to do anything. The system is working for you. >> I just thought it would be interesting to have this conversation here. Because I know we've talked about in the past, and our past lives about different pricing on different days for meeting rooms and even different day passes as well. >> Different hour of the day, different price. And you busy 1pm. You quiet 5pm, why can't you drop the price? >> Exactly. And you know, to go through and think about that, in the spreadsheet and looking at all the data from the operating system, it's quite a intensive, time intensive task. >> It's time to start off, I've said. >> But I just wanted, I just wanted, I just wanted to, A out to hear your thoughts around this. And you know, I'm a big fan of what these guys are doing. So I just, I know you've got a view on this. So I wanted to share it with you. >> I appreciate it. >> The other piece to this automated automation aspect is I remember a couple of seasons ago. I was interviewing another bearded guy, named Mike Kovax, founder of Placquoise in Castle Forge. And I guess I should probably, we should probably put the, the disclaimer that you don't have to have a beard to work clockwise. >> No. >> This is all a joke, of course. >> No. >> Mike was talking about in order to get proper valuations or flexible real estate, we have to be able to look backwards at the data so we can predict forward. And so to me, this whole automation conversation plays into that. And if our industry is going to be taken seriously on the, as an asset class by investors, then we've got to be able to provide the data. And so to me, that, this, that sort of sums up everything we just discussed there. And if we can add offices into this equation, as well as meeting rooms and day passes, I think we can get there. >> Just to talk, Sean, on a previous point, that we, we discussed, it's how do you balance the time between the community and the people aspect and then the back of house, you know, spreadsheet access, having tools and systems such as this, freezops so much time to be able to then to dedicate to the engaging to the community and to the other things that may need to be looking at. >> Well, well said, some, some's up the human aspect of what we're doing here. Because in order to deliver hospitality, you got to, you got to be a human. Before we close this out, James, we have to give a shout out to Sam, Shem Che, and in the work you're doing with her at Flock. I want to give you an opportunity for all of our listeners to hear about Flock and tell them what it is and why they should connect. >> Yeah, no, appreciate it. Flock is something that we're building. It's the future leaders of co-working. We have a great cohort currently in the United States. We're branching out into the UK. Flock is a community of individuals within co-working and flex. That are early to mid stage of their career, looking to upscale, looking to meet other people within, you know, the same sort of peer point. I'm able to connect with mentors, with industry leaders and get their foot into the door where they may not be available to them. It's something really proud to be building. And if anyone is at all interested, please drop us a note and meet all of our conversations. >> And I think it's fair for me to announce this now that I'm very proud that Brave Ideas is partnering with Flock to offer all your Flock members a free premium subscription. >> Flock. >> So really support what you guys are doing. It's a missing piece of the industry. So thank you for picking up the torch. >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Awesome. Well, thank you for tuning in. And until next time, take care of yourself. [BLANK_AUDIO]