What Makes a Million-Dollar Luxury Salesperson?

(upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the Debris from the Business of Fashion where each week we delve into our most popular B.O.F. professional stories with the correspondent who created them. I'm Senior Correspondent, Shina Butler Young. Luxury's best sales people have long been highly sought after. But as AI reshapes the shopping experience and relentless price hikes test customer loyalty, the competition for top sellers is intensifying. Retails are leaning harder on the one thing a machine can't replicate, a human sales person who knows exactly what their clients want. From Nordstrom's uncapped commissions to Bloomingdale's dedicated personal shopping suites for its top stylist, the perks available to sales people who can single-handedly move millions of dollars and merchandise underscores just how valuable the talent has become. Here to discuss with me is B.O.F's Retail Editor, Kathleen Chen, whose retail coverage has been exploring these shifts across fashion for quite some time. Cat, welcome to the Debris. - Thanks for having me, Shina. - So I wanna start with this anecdote that opens the story. It's about Pete Nordstrom who's trying to recruit if for the uninitiated, one of the top stylists in luxury retail ever, Catherine Bloom, who is known to have made hundreds of millions of dollars in sales for Neiman Marcus. So he ran into an event as he tells the story and he attempts to get her to come over to Nordstrom. She says, "Actually know I'm happy where I'm at." And he leaves it alone for a while and then as the story goes, in 2025, Sack's Global is in this major upheaval around debt. It had recently acquired Neiman Marcus and Catherine and Nordstrom have another conversation. She basically says, "This upheaval is affecting my ability to serve my clients and she makes the leap." What is a story like that, Cat? Tell you about where we're at in luxury retail. And luxury retail. - Well, first of all, Shina, that is one hell of an anecdote that you got for this story. - Thank you. - Congratulations. I mean, the whole piece is, I learned so much from it. - Thank you. - And I have questions for you, but to answer your question, I think it's really incredible that retail is still like kind of an old school industry where there is this sense of loyalty, right? This employee, this very successful employee has been at a retailer for many, many years and is reluctant to leave. I think it speaks to the fact that retail, and we've talked about this before, but it's really one of the last industries where you can start out entry level and work your way up, and there's a lot of rewards for loyalty. And then, of course, the whole sacks saga of it all is another element that I'm sure will delve into, but it's incredible that you were able to get the story from none other than Pete Nordstrom himself. How did that happen? - Well, I think he was very proud to tell that story. Actually, speaking of retail loyalty, I think it was, I think it spoke to, first of all, his, I think I set it up in the story as like Pete is ever the salesman. So Pete Nordstrom, obviously, the son of a person that built a business off of customer service, off of sort of being not aggressive, but very obsessed with this idea of like serving people and not closing the sale, but somewhat, you know, making what you, making what you need to happen happen. And so he, I think he was proud. Like, listen, I am a co CEO, this woman, Katherine Bloom, who is like so coveted in the industry, built a career at Neiman Marcus. I played the long game, I got it to come to Nordstrom. I think I don't, I'd love to take your compliment, compliment, but it didn't take much. He was very happy to share. The thing that I wanted to ask you back, we're gonna take turns ping pong, but the sucks global of it all is interesting, right? You've, you covered sort of the upheaval that happened there. I don't know if I realized how much that would impact the sales people and their ability to serve clients. Like, I think one of the inferences I got from the Katherine Bloom anecdote was like product, she didn't have access to the right product because of all the issues with inventory, but also like if, if your parent company is going through financial upheaval, how much of a quality experience can you offer? Did you sense that when you were covering the bankruptcy? - I mean, absolutely, it does come down to product. If you're not giving your clients top tier merchandise, then you really are not fulfilling your duties in serving them as their stylist. I think just a sense of uncertainty in general is not very, not very pleasant. When all of this was going down, I had heard from many or not many, but a number of department store executives who said off the record that this is a hiring opportunity for them. And so that was definitely, definitely very spicy. Sheena, I think you should totally do a follow-up where you talk to the top sales people and get their take on how competitive it is for them. And I'm curious if it's even your story suggests that it's even more like these people are even more in demand than ever before, even though the personal shopper gig has existed for more than a hundred years. - Oh, for sure. I think it would be such an interesting episode to have people on that have worked their way up in retail in a way that I think we often exaggerate how real that has been over the years, like the Doug McMillan's of the world. How many examples are there really, or the Ritzia CEO of people that have worked their way up in retail and become like a C-suite professional? I think the real working your way up is probably this pipeline. It's probably the person that starts off maybe on the shoe floor or at an accessories counter that is so good at, you know, so good at getting to know people, they have the personality, they have the charisma and they're very self-motivated and they become so valuable off the strength of their personality and their diligence. And then suddenly they're literally running a multi-million dollar enterprise within a department store, which is really what this is. Like they have entrepreneurs within the company. And I think that's incredible. - Yeah, and I think there are like two sides of the demand, like what's drumming up the demand for these roles. One, as you mentioned, department stores are losing their aspirational shoppers. So they are more reliant on their high net worth clientele. This is a trend that BOF has covered for. I wanna say like the last three, four years. But the other side of it I think is actually just the interest in multi-brand. I think that people want to shop in this multi-brand discovery-prone environment that only the Nordstroms, the Bloomingdale's, the sacks of the world can offer. I mean, Emil Dell sub-stacks, she interviews, sales associates from like Hermes and then the row and those are extremely interesting. And I think the whole juicy world of like, the personal shoppers that serve these wealthy, wealthy people is very interesting. But then in terms of the industry, the fact that there is this desire for newness and discovery and not just like whatever traditional luxury brands that rich women shop from. Are there all these contemporary brands that a stylist can introduce them to? I think that dynamic is very new. - Can we talk a little bit more than about what makes someone a million dollar sales person? And I know I said this a little bit earlier, but by the way, I'm talking about how many millions and sales they generate for a retailer. And then the best ones make deep six figures and sometimes clear seven figures in personal earnings at the, you know, salary at the end of the year. But Kat, talk to me about, you know, and I'll share my insights from reporting to like, what do you think it takes to be really good at a job like this? And where do you think these people typically come from? So you mentioned the branded stores, like, you know, the Hermes is of the world. Like, is that the track? You think that can help produce some of the top sales people? And what would you say are the, what's the talent profile? My understanding that it's been a while since I really have connected with like the shopping employees side, but my understanding that is that there's like a ping pong between multi brands to like single boutiques, like the most prolific personal shoppers will have worked both. And or some of them will have worked both. I think it's a, you know, people business talk about something that's AI proof. right? Like it's a relationship business and the value of their work is the books that they keep their rolodexes. And I would imagine it's a hustle, you know, reaching out to people not being pushy, charming them. I remember reading an anecdote somewhere recently about how top sellers are invited to their clients birthday parties, top sellers travel with their clients. And so they are building these relationships. They are very adept at charming their clients. And I would imagine that it's a very, it's a very like selective skill set. Like I don't know if I would be able to do that. Oh, I certainly not putting in an application to be anyone's top salesperson anytime soon. We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this. You said something else, we were talking when you were talking about, you know, the branded stores versus the multi brand retail. And they're being a little bit of a ping pong. Something that came up in my reporting is kind of, you know, depending on what a multi brand retailer has on its, like who it has on its roster, as terms of sales people, and how it's performing in terms of retail overall, are certain kind of salesperson will be more valuable, right? So it's not just can you make millions or generate millions and sales, can you speak to a certain audience? So one of the themes that is interesting, it's like, if it were, if you and I were applying for the same salesperson gig and we and you generated, I don't know, a hundred million dollars in sales at your previous employer, and I generated 50 million dollars in sales at my previous employer. We're both fine for the Nordstrom role. If you're really good with Gen Z, or if I'm really good with Gen Z, rather, I might be more valuable than you, even though you have a track record of making more money in sales. Does that make sense? Have you seen that trend of kind of retailers thinking through who makes a good salesperson based on where they need to grow as a business? I would imagine that true, but I won't lie. I really don't know the answer to that. I'm curious of in your reporting, if you've been able to ask about the criteria, and also, you know, if I were listening to this podcast right now, I feel like an especially shout out to our young professionals or students who are studying fashion, but if I were them, my question would be is, how do I get into this pipeline? If you're saying that these people make seven figures, just personal earnings, I'm not talking about how much sales they generate, but seven figures of personal earnings of take home, how can I get in line for that? How do I develop the skill set to become one of these very high profile stylists that are in demand by the industry? So Carolyn Pill, who is a luxury recruiter at Hejriks and struggles in London, she talked about it this way. She said the hard skills are experience and the client book. So that if you're an early career professional, you won't have those two things. The soft skills are basically everything else. It's charisma, it's diligence, it's someone that listens maybe more than they speak, has good follow-up is you know is a people person cultivates relationships. Pete Nordstrom talked about sort of the two tracks that he that Nordstrom uses or that Nordstrom sees the most, one he called the homegrown track. So people that come in that that's an area that I described earlier, they come in as a sales associate Nordstrom, I think calls all of their sellers stylists, but you come in maybe in an entry level capacity, which I think doesn't require more than a high school education and like maybe you worked at McDonald's while high school. So some customer service experience, this is me making up a little bit of what I think that would look like, but you come in on the sales floor and you just outperform and you have a passion for it and then you also maybe express to your managers like a desire to move up. And so that is so you stay with the company, you gain the experience, you move around and you get the experience and the client book under one roof. The other track is poaching. That's that those are the two ways it gets its top sales people. So they look over to the left and the right. They see Catherine Blument, Neiman Marcus and they say, "Hey, do you want to come over here?" And then on the on the retailer side, I think the other thing that's interesting and what they can offer is yes commissions commissions are super important. Also a base salary. I think we, you and I, you were on a couple weeks ago, we were talking about the the Kelly Clarkson moment. Right. I mean, at the risk of beating a dead horse, but like the customer service that has locked in retail, and I don't know if that stores commission base, but sometimes when there is no base salary or there's too much emphasis on commission, people start to do that toxic thing of screening people, not offering the same customer service because they are looking for the one that's going to help them take home a decent wage at the end of the month. But I thought we could talk a little bit there about what makes a compelling, also a compelling offer to get someone to come work for you. I would say commission, base salary, also store experience, like store environment. So the very same thing that gets a customer on your door, probably also gets a top sales person in your door. So fascinating to hear you talk about the the tracks that that Nordstrom described. One thing that came to mind was, you know, you're asking about, you know, what it what it would take for someone to work at a specific store. I remember in like 2019, 2020, I was covering client telling when like client telling was this buzz word in retail. And I think I interviewed Nina Marcus about its new customer relationship management tools that their CRM backend that would basically control controls the wrong word. But it wouldn't it's one interface on an iPad that would enable all of its sellers to initiate conversations with clients. And it occurred to me that this was a way of like rather than I'm the shopper, I'm going to be texting my client on my phone, that it would be sort of companies proprietary customer data. And so yeah, I was really curious about in this poaching dynamic, how how much of it is actually like allowed? Do you know what I mean? Like that because they're in our professional space, like even you and I, we're just, you know, we're just journalists, but we have non-compete. So that I don't know that's an interesting proposition. I thought you were going with that is, you know, in the in the conversation about what takes what it takes to get a salesperson to jump ship or what makes it like an attractive employee value proposition from a Neiman Marcus or a Nordstrom or a Bergdorf is like giving them access to sophisticated CRMs. So like this is one of the things that Bloomingdale's CEO, Olivier Braun said in the story, but specifically to to Imron on the B.O.F. podcast was like, we got to give them the bells and whistles, basically. Like if you're working as we're journalists, if I'm working at a publication and I'm logging on to like a, you know, crappy, you know, I don't know, like back and infrastructure to upload a story. And I and then someone else, some other publication has a more sophisticated system that might actually be a good recruitment or retention tool. But you're saying they can actually get it on either. I'm saying that if I were a personal shopper like I would want to and I'm pretty and in some stores they, you know, they do it like this where the stylists, the shoppers have like full autonomy to just like reach out to do you need the CRM, right? Like I as a shopper and you see a lot of like Instagram stylists become very successful this way by cultivating relationships on Instagram and like sourcing for clients that they meet on Instagram. I would say that owning those relationships would be like my M.O. if I, if I were a personal shopper versus, you know, all of this customer data that will belong to my employer. Well, so that maybe think of something else which is, you know, I'll tell you what Pete Nordstrom said on this and this, I'll tell you the question that I have and what Pete Nordstrom said, which is how much power do you give a single associate, right? So they are bringing tremendous value to their department store parent, a top salesperson. I have said that nauseam at this point, but hundreds of millions in generated revenues and sales and they are empowered to run what is essentially a business within a business at the department store. They have in Bloomingdale's, they are new, you know, upgraded personal suite. Nordstrom gave Catherine Bloom literally a standalone store, like a reworked Nordstrom local that she gets to do appointment only with her clients and, you know, is that too much? Does that affect the culture of a company? Pete Nordstrom says, you know, in my question around sort of like, you know, how much they make and all he's like, they should make how much ever like I think it's great that it's uncapped. They deserve to make hundreds of millions of dollars. What they do for the business is incredible and they should be paid in kind to that and they should be resource in kind to that. Do you think that has limits? Because if I mean, if I'm Sheena Butler young and I'm making 300 million revenue for you, maybe I walk in with my chest out a little bit, like does that affect the culture of a company with their when their other seller is not doing that? Huh, that's a really good question. I would be concerned maybe about this idea of shopper monopoly, you know, shoppers cannibalizing other shoppers. But then again, this is a relationships business, you know, and this is the fact that someone like Catherine Bloom can command her basically her own store within a store network at Nordstrom is phenomenal. And again, if I were an aspiring professional or a student in fashion, this, this would be an area that I would look into, you know, this, this retail career pipeline. And it's really interesting because, you know, we're talking about the highest end of shop, of personal shoppers, like we're talking about the most successful personal shoppers. But one thing about even the entry level sales associates, job market right now is that I hear and I, you know, you reported on the scene so you know more than I do, but I hear that it's still really hard to hire, even for this like, there, there, there is a shortage of demand from the job candidate side for retail period, you know, and, and I wonder if like stories like yours can generate enough hype and demand because like look where a retail career can land you, right? Absolutely. I mean, I think I think I would agree with you. I mean, client agree and hope with you that that is the case. I mean, I think there's a, there are so many reasons right now where anything you can do that is human centered or that that leans on your, your physicality and your presence as a human is in is way more valuable than would have been five, 10 years ago. I would also caveat that by saying this kind of job is not for everyone. Every single, you know, the sea from Pete Nordstrom to the luxury retail recruiters that I spoke to for the story were very adamant like great job millions, you know, millions in potential earnings for you. You can be highly valued at a company, but this is not a job for everyone. And I think I said earlier and I think you might have been, you might have inferred something yourself that I don't know if I could do this job. I don't know if I could do that kind of jobs. It is sales. It means someone's very self-motivated. It requires you to have an entrepreneurial streak. And so I think, I think that it is a good option and ever, ever better option in the, in the age of AI for, for a young talent to consider, but I would say it is not going to be an easy tech to earn for sure. I mean, it is, it is such a, it is such a trend though, right? Like, I don't know if you read that profile of Olivia Ferny in the New York Times. She has that viral Instagram account where she calls her rich, she books travel. And like she manages travel for ultra wealthy people. And she, she went viral for her conversations with her clients, making these outlandish, like out there, you know, very outlandish demands. And she has built a business around her having her own platform. And then that platform driving more demand to her services. And like this, this is like such a 21st century, like a post, you know, in the world of AI, like this is, this is the hustle up today, like platforming yourself and being platformed maybe by your greater employer in the case of North Sherman. And we see this even in media, right? Like publications are platforming their reporters with, you know, making Instagram reels and whatever it's, it's what you're saying is like putting the human first, it's something that is serving everybody in this working arrangement. It benefits the, you know, the employee that's being platformed and it benefits the employer. And it's very much a lesson in how to AI prove your career. Absolutely. Who would have thought we'd be wrapping up this conversation on the battle for Luxury's multi-million dollar sales people with this emphasis on being human-centered and leading with humanity? I love this for us. Kat, thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, this was such a fun chat. I, I hope it's okay that we kind of went all over to the place, but this topic is so ripe for discourse. Oh, I love a unplanned all over the place. Deep brief episode. Thank you, Kat. Of course. And congrats again on your story. Everybody should, go read it. It's, it's wonderful. Everyone should go read it, saying that again for the people in the back. Please be sure to check out more of my reporting on this story inside the battle for Luxury's million dollar sales people as well as cats reporting across the retail sector at businessofashion.com. These and other stories are available to B.O.F. professional subscribers only and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to the debrief, produced and added by Olivia Davies and Angel Memoff. I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.