What Makes a Great Client? Agency Partnerships, F1 Communications and Wizz Air's Reputation Turnaround | Rob Lester, THREESIXTY

Hello and welcome back to strategy story and stakeholders. I'm your host Max Forsyfe, managing director and founder of Confessation Selection, the specialist recruitment and search firm for communications, corporate affairs and investment relations. And joining me today I have Rob Leicester, who is the managing director of 360 communications and we are going to talk all about the agency versus in-house relationship, Rob's background as a journalist, his comms work in F1, some comms work with Wiz Air and yeah finally also what it's like to be agency side. So Rob welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Max. Super, yes we dive straight into it. So you started life as a journalist and now MD of 360. So how was that journey shaped how you advise clients and lead agency? Yeah I've got to say I'm normally the one advising clients for this kind of thing. So slightly strange for me to be on the other side of the microphone today but hopefully I'll be able to practice what I preach. So yes the the well-trodden path from journalism to communications. The first thing I would say is I loved being a journalist. It was brilliant I think I was one of those annoying kids that always knew exactly what they wanted to do from about the age of four. So yeah my dad was a journalist and I was always sort of fascinated by the power of language I suppose to inform and entertain and persuade and all of the great things that great writing and speeches do. So I always wanted to be a journalist and I remember the sort of rush that I felt the first time I saw the words Rob Leicester reporter and it wasn't even in a byline actually it was just in a sort of staff organisation chart on my local paper but it was I sort of felt like I achieved my dream. And it's brilliant profession journalism it teaches you so many life skills really but certainly a lot of skills that I've taken forward into my career today. So most obviously what makes a great story that's something I think about all of the time what doesn't make a good story as well. But also things like curiosity which I think is a really important skill for a journalist. So journalists don't just accept the first thing that they're told. You know they ask more questions they probe a little bit deeper for what's behind what someone said or something that's happened. And again I think that's a really useful skill for an advisor to have. So there was a bunch of skills that I learnt as a journalist that were helpful but then of course there were lots of things I had to learn as I moved over to the comm side things like strategy, commercialisation, how to advise a CEO, general client relations budgeting, all of the things that you don't really do as a journalist. And it took a bit of time but I was able to do that. I learnt from some brilliant colleagues at Hill and Nolton where I spent about six years in my first PR job. And I think that's the sort of combination of skills that I bring to the role today really. That's certainly not to say that you have to be a brilliant journalist to be a good PR advisor. I know lots of PR advisors that haven't been journalists but for me that's sort of how it works. So I think I still think like a journalist but I've just been able to acquire those additional skills to help me be a good advisor and hopefully a good leader. And at what point did you make the jump into an MD role and what's that like running an agency? Yeah, it was different. So I worked in the crisis team at H&K for about six years. And I think that helped the transition actually going from journalists to crisis comms person. There is clearly some similarities there and I was using a lot of the journalist skills in that role. And then via one more agency I joined 360 about eight years ago to effectively relaunch the business with Oli Wheeler, our CEO. Did about 18 months ahead of what we called reputation at the time. Essentially our corporate offer it was previously a consumer agency. And then Oli and I took the decision to really relaunch it as a corporate comms offer, which the group that we're a part of hadn't had before. And that was the point that I stepped up to be MD. So first time running an agency first time running any sort of business. And it was quite daunting I suppose. You don't really know what you're doing. You're learning on the job but I think the one thing that Oli and I both had was a very clear vision about what we thought corporate communication should be. And that's what we spent the last eight years doing. Get it. And on that. So what does a modern corporate communication agency need to do differently from the traditional agency model? Yeah I think traditional corporate communication and I'm probably generalizing here but I think it's been about protecting reputation. So not saying the wrong thing. For company has to report results. They will do that when they're obligated to do so. If they have an issue, they'll manage it as and when they need to. But actually it's about being pretty cautious. Not really rocking the boat. And as I say, big generalization appreciate there are lots of companies that have never communicated that way. But it's certainly something I found when I was a journalist and I was felt that was slightly strange. But our view of modern corporate communication is it should be about so much more than that. Yes. So it shouldn't just be about not saying the wrong thing. It should be saying and importantly doing the right thing. And saying that to a much broader group of stakeholders than perhaps companies would have done in the past. So of course, investors and regulators and policy makers and business journalists are important. They are sort of lifeblood of corporate communications in many ways. And we speak to those people every day. But actually we take a much more holistic view of reputation of corporate reputation than that. And think that a whole range of audiences contribute to a company's reputation. So you've also got to consider your employees. You've got to consider consumers, campaign groups, LLMs now of course, culture. What's happening in culture in a particular industry? And how is that impacting your business as well? So there's a whole bunch of considerations when it comes to managing reputation. Then I think it's how you engage with those stakeholders. So engaging much more proactively maybe than companies would have traditionally done in the past. And finally, what I would say is it's linked, I think, to linked to the next generation of leaders. I think a lot of our clients now founders and CEOs, they're in their thirties and forties. And they want to communicate in a different way, maybe in their predecessors did. So they want to do interviews. They want to be posting on LinkedIn regularly. We're actually creating a substack for one of our CEOs at the moment, which you never would have thought of five or ten years ago. So there is a desire to be more productive on their side. So I think that as communications advisors, we need to evolve as well. Yes. And when you made that decision to start to advise clients to get more on the front foot, were you finding to begin with, you were having to suggest that rather than the clients coming to you with those ideas? I think it was a mix. In some cases, yes. I think we might come on to talk about one of them. You mentioned in the intro where I think a proactive approach was certainly what was needed in the case of Wiz Air, which I'll come on to later. I think sometimes it's obvious. It feels like that is the right strategic advice to give a client. Sometimes it's natural. As I say, sometimes there's a particular CEO or leader that wants to communicate that way. And sometimes it's difficult. Sometimes they are just very used to doing it differently. And we do have some clients even to this day who I won't name, who don't feel comfortable doing that. They prefer to be a bit more humble. And they prefer to flounder the radar a bit more and let their products do the talking. And that's fine. I think we don't mean be reckless. We don't mean go out and communicate for the sake of it. We don't mean do it. If it doesn't feel right to your brand, but we mean if you're going to keep your head down and be cautious, make that strategic decision rather than just the default. A lot of listeners to the podcast are in house professional. So I think they'll be particularly interested in your answer to this question. So from an agency perspective, what makes a great client? Yeah, I think two things. I think a great client is open to a genuine partnership and brings you interesting problems to solve. That would be the two things that I would say. So on the partnership side, we speak to our clients all the time. We're constantly speaking to our clients. I think it's become a bit of a cliche that the client or the agency wants the agency to be a sort of extension of their team. Everyone says that. But I think it's true. I think that is where the best relationships sit. It does feel like that. So we're constantly speaking to our clients. I always find it amazing when we win a client from another agency and they say, we didn't hear from our agency for days or even weeks sometimes. That's very strange to me. Constantly talking to our clients, and that's so important. So I think having that partnership at a strategic level, I think a client that's willing to take advice on board and doesn't just see you as an agency to execute the decisions they've made but wants to work with you to make those decisions. I think is obviously welcome from an agency perspective. And then I think on the sort of interesting problem side, you know, of course, we love working with brands with great reputations and many of our clients do have that. We don't exclusively work with companies with reputation problems. But we like it when companies have business challenges and we like it when they have communications challenges as well. So, you know, there are certain companies and certain sectors that we probably wouldn't work with and we have turned down work for those reasons in the past. But anyone who has a genuine business challenge where communications can help and is open to being a partner in a way that I described, that's a great climb for us. Are you finding there are particular business challenges that are becoming more common or more frequent? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the world is changing in a way that I mentioned earlier. So I think companies are having to speak up more on issues than maybe they felt comfortable doing in the past. And as I say, I think some do that quite naturally and some find it a bit more uncomfortable. And that's changing again. I mean, certainly five years ago, you know, purpose and sustainability in those sorts of topics were incredibly important and they remain so to a point. But I think even that's changed quite a lot in the last year or two. Yeah. So there are constantly sort of moving parts, but I think it is about knowing who you are as a business, you know, knowing what your values are and being led by that, whether you're communicating proactively. or in a crisis. I think if your values are leading the way that you're communicating, there's going to be a consistency there where you're not being too led by trends and things that you feel like you have to do. You're making decisions because you feel like it's the right thing to do for your business. Yeah, so I think that's an every Christian challenge isn't if business is where pace of business, pace of the world, social media trends, etc. It's coming thick and fast and there can be a temptation to chase the latest shiny thing, rather than just sticking to your core strategy and your core values, as you say. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's right. And that would be, I think, a bad example of being proactive. Anything for the sake of it is not right. You know, you've got to do it for the right reasons. You've got to think carefully about why you're making these decisions. I think when we find it is more important to do that, is, as I say, when a business is facing a genuine reputational challenge, they've got to, you know, face up to that and understand what that is and then consider what the correct communications approach is. But often it is engaging. It is communicating sometimes on the record and publicly often that way. Sometimes not, but at the very least engaging with your various stakeholders in a way that I talked about before, I think rarely is a problem made worse by engagement. How are journalists today? Are they respectful of on the record versus off it? Or are you finding that's changing slightly with generations? Interesting question. I think they're still pretty respectful of it. It was always sacrosanct when I was a journalist. You know, you just wouldn't break it. And pretty much every journalist I've ever worked with, including recently, respects that. It's just so important to this sort of journalist code and the way that they build relationships and the way that they get stories. So I think it would be counterintuitive to break that trust. I have seen it done. I think sometimes if the story is good enough and all the contact is perhaps not good enough, then I've seen it done. They feel like it was worth burning that relationship for a front-page story. So it does happen. And I do advise my clients in the many media training sessions that we run to be careful, you know, never completely relax around a journalist. But I think it's all about relationships. It's about burdening that trust. And certainly any journalist I've worked with worth I still would respect that. So I think, you know, for more experienced operators, you can use it, but I think for media novices, be careful. You've worked in and around Formula One. So what makes the sport such a distinctive comms environment? Yes, interesting sport Formula One. I think the thing about Formula One is the story doesn't stop when the racing stops. In fact, it's sort of that's just the beginning in many ways. So the sport is so much about politics and about personalities. So Formula One is part sports and it is a big global sport now, one of the few global sports in the world actually. It's part entertainment. It's part global business and it is a big business now. You know, we have a number of our clients now starting to consider and sponsor Formula One in a way that they wouldn't have done before. For instance, live in Netflix. But it's also part soap opera. You know, that's part of the brilliance of Formula One is it is just so much about those sort of personalities. And I think when you are managing those personalities, it's challenging, right? You know, if you think about a sport like football, personalities are important. There are big personalities in all sports. But actually, the product of football is really what happens on the pitch. It's the match. But in Formula One, the personalities are part of the products, whether you like it or not. So it is important, what goes on on the track. Of course it is. And I think there are some old school F1 fans that wish it was only about that. But the reality is the personality is part of the product. And I think when you combine that with an adrenaline field sport where these guys are racing around a track at 200 miles an hour, you know, it's tough to control any narrative in a sport like that. You know, I've done some media training with F1 drivers with team principles. And it's very easy to sit here in a meeting room in London and say, "Do this and don't say that." But if you come off a race track and your teammates just driven into you, you take your helmet off and some of the shoves in a microphone in your face. You're not thinking about what the guy in London told you. You know, it's really tough. So it's different. It requires sport in general, but particularly F1, I think, requires different communications strategies. And how do you find that balance from an advice perspective between those personalities? You've then got, you know, as you say, you've got rid of the sort of commercial and sponsorship interests. You've then got the media scrutiny as well. So yeah, how do you advise them from that? Yeah, balance is the right word. It is a balance because you're not dealing with a single reputation. You know, you are dealing with a whole ecosystem when it comes to F1. So if you are a comms advisor for forming one team, for example, you've got a hell of a lot of stakeholders to consider. So the team itself, the drivers and the team principle within it, the owners of the team, sponsors, the FIA, Formula One itself, all of these different stakeholders with quite competing interests. So I think your sort of part comms advisor, part diplomat, actually, if you work in comms in Formula One. And that's not easy. And then it's about the personalities that I mentioned. It's about how do you sort of control a narrative in a sport like that? And it's, as I say, it's very difficult to do. You're dealing with guys who are incredibly competitive, big egos, highly driven, successful people. So you can't tell them what to do. But equally, they do need to be some guardrails in place because that's what we do as comms people. And you've got to consider risk and actually what might be harmful to the team or any of the other stakeholders that I mentioned. So I think you are balancing trying to put some of those guardrails in place with allowing the personality of the drivers or whoever we're talking about to really come through because there are some brilliant personalities in the sport and you don't want to kill that. Yeah. And who do you think is doing that particularly well? Well, good question. I mean, I think, you know, I'm going back a bit now. So I'll have a think about a more modern example as well. But I think, you know, there isn't a right way to do it. If you think about personalities in the past, you've got people like Daniel Riccardo. Yes. It was a brilliant sort of jovial Australian all smiling even when he got knocked out of a race, like incredibly endearing individual. And he was brilliant doing sort of shrewies on the podium. And that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then you got someone like Kimi Raikident who was the exact opposite. Hated doing media interviews and, you know, monostalabic would swear on live interviews really difficult, I think, for journalists and broadcasters. But actually became a bit of a sort of cult hero for behaving like that as well. And so there isn't necessarily a right way to do it. I think, for me, as a comms advisor, it's about working with someone's personality and trying to be authentic. You can't make Kimi Daniel and vice versa. So I think you got to work with what you got. And I think to be fair, I think nowadays the drivers are pretty good. I mean, you know, Lewis is so famous. You know, it's difficult to even imagine, you know, what it's like for him. And clearly, people like him and Max for stepping up and doing it for a long time. But even the younger, you know, guys coming into the sport now, I mean, I've been Lindblad's super impressive, you know, guy, he's 18 years old and he looks like he's been doing media forever. So, you know, I think on the whole drivers now, I pretty good and team principles know exactly what they're doing. They play the game according to what's needed. So turning to your work now is a bit there. So what comms challenges did they bring to you and how have you and have you gone about approaching it? Yeah, we're a brilliant client for the reasons I mentioned earlier. So I think we are genuine partners in the first instance. And they had a really interesting challenge to solve when they first came to us. So just a quick bit of context, we started working with Wiz in early 2023 off the back of what had been a difficult summer in 2022. I think it's dubbed the summer of chaos by the tabloid media for the industry, really not just for Wiz, but there were lots of things going on, traffic control strikes, shortage of baggage handlers, whatever it was, but a challenging summer for travelers. And off the back of that, almost exactly when we started working with Wiz, they'd also been named the worst airline in the UK by which they're in their annual survey. So a very clear, repeat challenge. Yeah, yeah. But they were taking steps to solve it. The reality is that they were spending, I think, nearly 100 million pounds on improving their operations, which was a significant step to take. But that narrative wasn't really cutting through. So we proposed to use the word I've used a little bit today, a much more proactive approach when it came to their communications on both the protect and the promote side of things. So on the protect side, we went out and met all of the travel journalists that we're writing about Wiz, including many of our biggest detractors. And we sat down with them for an hour each and talked about the complexities of running an airline and answered all of their questions. And there were difficult conversations, but we sort of fronted up and wanted to have that conversation. As I say, talk about how difficult it is and how many things for an airline outside of your control, but also importantly where we did get things wrong. Hold our hands up and say, look, we could have done that better. And here's what we're doing to fix it. So that was an important first step. And also with which it was interesting, the second time around when we did the survey, we discovered that they'd spoken to a tiny fraction of our customers. So I think it was something like a hundred and twenty four customers, something like that. Okay. From out of twelve point two million customers that Wiz had in the UK, which was surprising to us. Yes. And I'm assuming a lot of the other airlines had a high representation of pastries. They did. Yeah. They did actually some significantly higher. I mean, even in their case, it was pretty small, but it was a tiny percentage for us. So we said it, we went out and said that publicly, you know, which we felt it was unfair and we thought we were within our rights to do that. So we actually went out ahead of the Wiz survey going out, spoke to Janice and said, let this is coming. We don't think it's fair for this reason. And here are the facts. And actually the reporting shifted quite significantly because while some reports still focused on the survey results, others focused on the fact that we had an issue with the methodology and, you know, Wiz hits back at which or whatever. So that I think was a much more proactive approach on the protection on the promote side, you know, when you work with an airline when you work in the car. the travel industry. There are some brilliant stories to tell, positive stories to tell, and they probably weren't being told as much as they could have been. So, you know, you think about things like affordable travel, the democratization of travel, hidden destinations, you know, with flight of amazing destinations that are off the beaten track. So, we did some lovely storytelling around a campaign that they ran called Let's Get Lost, where they took influencers and media and competition winners off to a random location. The boarding pass was blank when it came to the destination. So, the whole thing was a big surprise. Yes. And it was brilliant. You know, it got some great coverage out of that. So, there was a real positive storytelling element that wasn't happening either. Yes. So, I think a combination of those things. That's a really cool idea to move that. Yeah, it's a great campaign, you know, and they weren't running it in the UK at the time. It came to the UK, I think, in our second year of working with them, and it got some brilliant coverage. So, I think a combination of those things led to a very tangible impact on media sentiment. So, I think within the first year, I think positive sentiment had improved something like 24%, negative sentiment decreased by 26%. Just by taking a much more productive approach. And that was working with the client in the way that I've talked about as genuine partners to address a problem. Yeah, no quiet. And I think what I've personally noticed is, yeah, you know, unfortunately, in the UK, we have had some pretty big outages in air traffic control, et cetera. I have very much noticed with UK CEO Ivone. Ivone is on the airwaves. She's getting quoted. She's on the front for not afraid to have an opinion. Absolutely. Yeah, have you worked with her on that? Yeah, for sure. I mean, if one's an amazing spokesperson, we had Marion before, Ivone, for the last, I think, year and a half, something like that. And they are both brilliant assets to the company because you're exactly right. They want to go out and talk about these issues. And the reality is that is a serious issue for the industry. And it's incredibly frustrating for passengers. But it's important that they understand the reality of what's happening. And, you know, that that organization is rightly, I think under pressure. Yeah, I think it is probably an example of what I'm talking about. I don't know whether they would have done that four or five years ago. Maybe they would. But it felt like something that we were very comfortable doing now because we had an opinion on it. And we have a good spokesperson to deliver the message. So we were very happy to do it. Yes. Or could you even argue, actually, a lot of the work you've done over the last few years means that she's now one of the first numbers, all of the journalist's ring for comment. Yeah, I think there is some of that. I think the sort of journalist roadshow that I mentioned, you know, when it comes to building relationships is important. I think the fact that they know that we are open for business and we have a very active press office that will defend ourselves when we need to defend ourselves, hold our hands up when we get things wrong. But as you say, talk on lots of different topics. We want to be thought leaders. You know, they are a brilliant company. We're as a fast growing company with a lot to say. So I think you're right. I think all of those things contributed to the fact that yeah, we probably are one of the first phone calls now in a way that maybe some of the other airlines that have taken a different approach aren't. And when a brand operates in a highly visible and closely scrutinized sector, what separates really effective reputation management from simply reacting to headlines? Yeah, two things, I think. Preparation and a word I've used a lot today, productivity. I think those are the two things which sound a bit dry. I'll try to bring them to life a little bit. So preparation, both on the crisis side, so making sure that you're prepared the worst time to be dealing with an issue is when the issue breaks. So most companies can predict most of the things that are going to go wrong, not everything, but most of them. So I think for the basics, having a good crisis plan in place that's updated regularly, doing your scenario planning and your risk assessments and just being as prepared as you can be for anything that can potentially go wrong. But also on the positive thought leadership side, as we've just been talking about, actually, what do we think? What's our point of view on the world? What do we want to talk about? What don't we want to talk about? So again, when something happens, we're able to get quickly into that story and get our spokesperson involved in the debate. So all of that has to happen before issues break or otherwise you're immediately on the back foot. So I think that preparation is really key. And then productivity, I've obviously talked a lot about, I think, you know, proactive engagement, mistake holders, we've mentioned. But also, I think, communicating as proactively as you can, particularly in a crisis. So in a crisis, you often don't have all of the information. But usually saying something is better than saying nothing. So even if it's just this is the facts, as we know them, we will find out more and an update you again. That's better than that sort of radio silence and that communications vacuum that saying nothing creates. So generally gripping an issue, looking like you're in control, that's the way to do it. And I think the good brands, the brands that come out of those sorts of issues with their repugations intact are the ones that really understand that. What's one thing you wish more in house communications teams understood about getting the best from their agency partner? Leaning is what I would say. You know, really sort of open, open yourselves up to a really false and relationship in a way that I've talked about. You know, and I get that it requires some trust to do that, particularly with a new partner. But I think bringing the agency in early, explaining the strategy, you know, seeing them as strategic advisors rather than just as a delivery service for execution, I think is so key. Then it's up to the agency to prove that trust. I think we need to use our experience and our knowledge of the business to advise, you know, and build that level of trust. And then I think you should hopefully be able to achieve that balance between being close enough to a business to feel like part of the in-house team that you understand the issues and you're giving the right advice. But also you're detached enough as an external advisor to challenge when you need to. And I think that's that healthy challenge is important as well. It certainly doesn't mean that clients always need to listen to our advice, you know, often they won't. And that's okay. But hopefully most of the time they do. Yes. So I think it is getting that balance to the point where you sort of don't feel like client and agency anymore. You feel like a group of Cobb's professionals working to address a challenge. I think that's where our best relationships are. Just going back to the point you made earlier on around your regularity of contact with clients, speaking to them all the time, you know, is that just phone calls? Is that sort of weekly meetings? I think, you know, one, you know, one complaint sometimes I will hear, you know, kind of when I'm meeting in-house comms, these are, if they're not particularly happy with their agency. Yes, one sometimes sits around contacts. But two, it can just be, you know, I think at the moment where a lot of companies are reviewing budgets, everyone is going, I'll be getting value for money out of all of our supplies. So it's not just a pay all-ration thing. I think this goes for any actual supply for any function. You know, how are you getting on the front foot as an agency to make your clients feel like they are getting what they're paying for? Absolutely. I mean, we're obsessed with it. It's something that we think about every second of every day. And that's what I mean about the constant communication. I mean, it never to the point we're annoying. I mean, sometimes they need to be left alone. I don't want to overdo the point. But I think, you know, it's really outside of what you mentioned. So yeah, of course, the weekly calls and the meetups are important, but it's not really that. It's about the WhatsApp contact. You know, it's about a quick phone call when you need it. It's about popping over to an office when you're passing, coffee, breakfast, you know, whatever it may be. I think just keeping that line of communication constantly open, so you do really feel like you're across the issues of the business. That's how I hope that we provide value. I think we would all be mortified if any client ever said, look, I haven't heard from my agency in a week, or I don't really know what they're doing this week. I mean, I would be pretty confident that none of our clients would ever say that. So we're never complacent. You know, I think every morning we wake up thinking, you know, we could get fired today. We have to prove our value. I think you have to have that sort of healthy paranoia when you run a business. And that's something that the three partners who run our business are pretty obsessed with. So whatever that people clients would say about 360, I certainly hope they wouldn't say that. Yeah, no, get it, get it. And I think another trend I've started to see is, sure, there's a time and post for a retainer, but I think I'm certainly hearing and seeing a lot more project-based work rather than just those very long-term ongoing retainers. So, yeah, you know, kind of, how are you managing that as a business and, yeah, you know, kind of, how do you have to adapt your model to fit that? Yeah, I'm hearing that a lot as well. I think we seem to have a fairly high retainer split. So we're about 75% retainer, 25% project, something like that. Yeah. She's pretty high. We do do a lot of project work and we're interested to do it. I think we find that when we work with a client on a project basis, it quite often turns into retained work, which we love. So we'll do a broadcast project or an audit or whatever it may be, and that turns into a much longer-term relationship, which we love. But of course, it's whatever's right for the client. That's the most important thing to say. You know, we work with a lot of startups and appreciate that they don't necessarily have retained budgets from day one. That's fine. You know, we're very happy to come in and do a three or six-month project. Again, hopefully, prove our worth. And then if retainer is right for them to move on to, then great. Some clients, we work with just on a pretty regular project basis where they'll come to us two or three or four times a year for something that they need. And that's fine as well. So we're pretty flexible. Ultimately, again, it sounds like a bit of a cliche, but it really is whatever suits the client. You know, we, because we're so obsessed with proving our value, it's whatever works best for them. And however, they can use us most effectively. And trend-wise, do you see, you know, kind of, do you see the function? Do you see the industry going somewhere where perhaps it wasn't necessarily there a few years ago? There's a lot of it more sort of social media, multimedia content rather than sort of more pure PR or media relations. Or are you still finding it's a good split? Yeah, I think it is a split. I mean, all of those things are important. I mentioned the importance of that sort of diversity of audience. So we think about all of those things. Social media for sure, still important. LLM, as I mentioned, I mean, AI is changing the world, right? So it's certainly going to change our industry. That's for sure. But I do think some of the basics really do still apply. I mean, media relations, I've never really understood why media relations has ever been a dirty word or a dirty phrase in our industry. It's coming back into fashion now, I guess, because of GEO, but for me, it's always been absolutely vital. I mean, we've interviewed people before, so relatively senior people have said, "I don't really speak to journalists anymore, big red flag for me." You know, we're communications people, you've got to speak to journalists, I speak to journalists all the time. So that's always been very strange to me. Journalists are still incredibly important, opinion-formers, and just because people don't read newspapers anymore. It doesn't mean they're not influencing the debate. You know, they're influencing it on their social media feeds, they're influencing it, certainly through the LLMs and through AI. You know, they are still at very important commentators that can't be ignored. So I think the answer is all of them, but I think it would be a foolish PR agency to underestimate the importance of journalism and media relations. So part of the name of the podcast is story, and I saw there was an article this week in PR Week, where a commentator was effectively saying that the new-ish use of the term storytelling is slightly devaluing what we do as an industry. Would you agree with that? Yeah, it was really interesting. Got a lot of comments, and I would agree with it to a point. I can certainly understand what they were saying. I think the point was that actually comms PR is about more than that. It's about strategic counsel. It's about a whole bunch of things that sit outside of storytelling and I get that. And to be taken seriously at the top table, then, you know, we can't just be seen as storytellers. But I was slightly surprised at the backlash against the word itself. I mean, I, as I mentioned earlier when I was talking about my time as a journalist, I passionately believe in storytelling. I think it's one of the most important tools that we've got, actually. And if we just become strategic advisors, like everyone else, you sort of, you know, become like any other department in a business, I think storytelling is our superpower in many ways. So yes, it's only part of the toolbox, but it's an important part. And actually, a lot of people can't tell a story, you know, as effectively as communications people can. And I think that, you know, can be a tool that we can use to address some of the reputation problems that we've been talking about. So, you know, I certainly wouldn't undervalue the power of storytelling, but I appreciate the sentiment that, of course, as comms leaders, we need to do more than just that. And I agree, I think, hey, it's part of the whole package. I think, you know, also there is no longer really a time or a place or patience for a comms leader just to be purely that senior strategic advisor. And I think, yeah, if you think in the modern world, you can get away with just being that person. It doesn't really work like that anymore. I think everyone is expected to be able to roll their sleeves off and mix in as well as do the advice we work. So yeah, no, I'm with you on that for sure. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the great thing at working for a small agency, you know, there's 25 people at 360 and we all do everything. You know, and that's great. We, you know, even the senior team, we love to communicate, we love to talk to journalists as I mentioned, we love to write, we love to solve problems, deal with issues. And we get to do that every day in a way that, you know, as much as I love my time at the big agencies, you didn't necessarily get to do that. So completely agree. You know, I think again, coming back to what does a modern corporate communications advisor need to look like? I think it's all of those things. And story teller as much as some people might not like the term is part of what I think we need to do. So Rob Lester, thank you very much for coming on strategy story and stakeholders. Thanks for having me, Max. It's a problem pleasure. And just before we go, yeah, kind of where can everybody find you? Where can they connect with you? And how can they find out more about 360? Yeah, so please do visit our website, say 360.uk. I am on LinkedIn. Probably is the most appropriate social channel or they will find lots of pictures of my son playing football on Instagram. Yeah. So I think it's Rob Lester, or Robert Lester, maybe on LinkedIn. But yeah, I love to connect with anyone that would like a chat. Fab, super. Well, yeah, kind of thank you for your once again. Brilliant. And so yeah, speak soon. Brilliant. Thanks, Max. Cheers. Thank you.