What makes a ‘good’ line manager?

[Music] Welcome to HQN Podcasts. [Music] Hello and welcome to the latest HQN podcast. I'm John Land and today I'm delighted to be joined by HQN's leadership and organisational Development Hub Lead Associate Jane Atherton and Cat Tindall Strategic Organizational Development Lead for Lincolnshire Housing Partnership. Welcome, it's great to see you both. Yeah, it's a name I see. Hi John. We're here today to discuss the role of line management capabilities in a housing context. So just to kick things off, why do you feel this is such a key topic that organisations need to think about currently? Jane, do you want to kick us off? Yeah, and I guess my response to that John would be that for as long as I have operated in people, in people management, line management capabilities has always been a thing. It's always been a priority for people, teams, to ensure that people that have people management responsibilities have the right skills, have the right knowledge, have the right behaviours to be able to do a well and effectively. So this isn't a new thing. Although there is a lot coming at line managers, and that is ever increasing, I would say, it's definitely not a new thing. Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, if you look at not to get too scientific because I don't have the capability to do that, but if you look at anything that the stress point tends to be in the middle, and that's where we kind of sometimes need to focus on strengthening. And I think for as long as I've been in my various kind of careers of people development and recruitment, what I've seen is people be promoted because they're technically good at their role. We wouldn't dream of asking a nurse or an accountant to go and do their job without having a relevant training to that. And yet we seem to think that we take somebody with technical expertise, go, you're a manager now, and that they can just do that without actually being given the tools and the tricks and the tips to do that properly. So we need to get better at that and be more disciplined about that. So what do you think makes a good line manager cat? Challenge is always when people take that, and I guess I think I'm thinking from that first step into line management. It's understanding that there is a transition. You don't walk out of one role one day and walk into the other one the next day, and by virtue of a new job title, you now have that capability. I think there is a real need for both individuals and organisations to understand that it is a transition period. And there is a real shift from sometimes the language is important. There's a real difference between responsibility and accountability. So if I think of myself, I'm accountable for making sure that there is quality, learning and development delivered throughout my organisation. I'm not responsible for doing it. I'm responsible for the people who are responsible for doing it. And I think sometimes that's the tricky bit. And that's where we see that constant challenge of people getting down into the level below because we're going to a company space and to where the technical expertise is that we're happy with. And it is that I think a good line manager is one that understands I now need to think with different priorities. And really importantly for me, it's somebody who doesn't think in terms of their own technical area. They think about what's best for the wider organisation and the overarching goals and make sure that all of their local KPIs and goals absolutely feed into the wider organisation one. So it's that more strategic thinking but being able to jump into the tactical doing as well. It's a really, really tricky area. Yeah, I've just actually had a good conversation with a line manager and was talking about doing this podcast right now and saying, what skills would you say as a line manager or the line managers need? And their response was around remembering that you're stepping up. Remember that you're not doing the do, you don't need to do the do. There are other people in those job roles that will do the job. There are other people in those job roles that will do that. You need to manage doing the do. And they were listing skills like adaptability. And this being ever more important now because you might think you're doing one thing and then all of a sudden circumstances change. In addition to that, people are all different. So you might manage a team of different age groups, different backgrounds, different experience levels. So that adaptability from one person to the next is really key. So for somebody in your team you might use really kind of instructional line management because that's what they need. But for others simply it is just a matter of coaching them to be able to do the job and do it well and effectively. So that ability to adapt from one person to another they thought was really key and thought that was really timely that I had that conversation. Do you think line management is something that absolutely has to be trained or is it can it be done on instincts and being a people person and somebody that understands their team or is it far more evolved than that? I was watching our old friend Mr. Sinek at the end of last week. One of the things he was talking about was that management is a capability that everybody has. In the same way that we are all potentially capable, have the capacity to be parents, it doesn't mean everybody wants to be or should be. And I think that yes absolutely certain skills can be trained but there is that. There are certain behavioural traits that we really need to manage in order to be receptive to that training. A lot of that is around personal ego, personal gain. It's having that kind of wider view. So yeah I think it can be trained. I don't think everybody wants to do it and I think we make the mistakes sometimes of thinking success means managing people, success means greater numbers and higher up the line manager chain. And I think my experience of the best organisations I've worked with in consultancy was those that recognise that we need to give people breadth of opportunity as well as depth and height of opportunity. I think that's right. I think it's that old argument isn't it? Our leadership skills developed or just are they innate in people. And I think there is a real blend. Some people naturally have skills and strengths that they probably don't even think about as leadership skills and strengths. If they talk people listen and people respond and follow, you know it might be somebody who organises the team outing and so the word makes a difference but yet they might not be the manager. But it matters and if you've got somebody like that who's on board with a change programme for instance then it's more likely that other people will come along because they need their words. But they might not necessarily be your managers. I would say there's a certain degree of management capability that you could do without development but it wouldn't be the whole picture. You know it's development for a reason because it develops our thinking, our awareness of different models, our awareness of different aspects of management that are important. Even if it's systems responsibilities that a manager has like approving somebody's annual leave or approving somebody's mileage or expenses without sometimes necessarily having that explained somebody they might not know. So they might not be fulfilling the whole of their role. And I think also from an organisational perspective the benefit of structured management training means that we're consistent because what we don't want is pockets of greatness and pockets of underperformance in terms of management. We want to be really explicit and you know I'm sure we'll come onto the conduct and competency framework at some point because it always raises head in these conversations. What I think that gives us is that real clear reminder that there should be a key framework and any development we should be doing should be linked to our behavioral framework, to our code of conduct, to our company values to all of those things. And we shouldn't allow there to be nuance and ambiguity about what those things mean. What it means for me anyway. So I'm going to go to the next one. I don't know if there's possible to put your finger on it, but taking in everything we've discussed so far are what does effective line management look like to you both from the employees experience but also the manager? So I think for me the most important thing that a good, and if I think of my best line management experiences, the best thing for me that a line manager can do and that I try to do is to give clarity. If we create confusion, we are putting a layer into an organisation that it doesn't need. Clear, manageable KPIs are really important, I think. Line managers and anyone in an organisation, we can be really guilty of being scattergun and unfocused. And if everything's important, nothing's important. And we end up chasing lots of fantastic things with absolutely positive intent, but we end up not not arriving at any of the destination. So for me, a good line manager is really clear about what the overarching goal is, what key expectations there are and what deadlines those expectations have. And importantly, creates an environment where people feel safe to have ideas, contribute, give and receive feedback and get things wrong. We've got to make sure that it's okay for people to be human and make mistakes because if we respond in a punitive way to mistakes, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll hide them in the metaphorical pedestal draw next time they happen and that's much more dangerous. I think taking Kat's example there of my best experiences of being managed and I guess on a personal level, I'm not very good at actually being managed. Because I like to self manage and very much hold myself accountable. But I think the key thing in addition to what Kat said is trust and to trust that people will do what they say they're going to do, trust that people want to come to work to do a great job to do their best work and have that belief in people. So I've always done my best work when I felt trusted and when I felt empowered. To do work, yeah, I might have had the goals that Kat's explained there, the clear set out targets, expectations, but to be trusted and empowered to realise those without somebody kind of over the top of me, over my shoulder watching. So that's when I have done my best work. And I think all those things that Kat said are absolutely key, but that's what's made the big difference to me. Obviously, I'm talking about empowering employees, but there is also a need to empower managers and some people may think they're not equipped to be a good manager or they're worried or uncomfortable about taking on the responsibility. And almost having that responsibility for their staff. Have you got any tips in terms of how organisations should approach it, but also what people can do themselves to really embrace the whole management thing? It sounded like John, you were describing a reluctant manager there. And I think there probably are some examples of those people who show good management or leadership skills, but aren't in a management role as I talked about earlier. But I think, and I know Kat is a strong believer in this as well, is it's about providing those foundations so people know what the job is and a clear what the job is from the management perspective. But I think there's also supportive conversations that can happen for managers that might be, you know, they might have an experience where they're struggling with a colleague in their team who, you know, they're not managing to deliver or they can't figure out how to manage them in the best way for that particular situation. And I think coaching conversations can be so important. So provide organisations providing the opportunity for managers to have coaching, to have mentoring. And that can come from lots of different places. I think it may be that there are internal coaches, external coaches. But the can also be on learning programmes, the opportunity for managers to talk about particular situations, the facing. How have you dealt with this before? When I had that situation, this is what I did. This is, this is might be something that could help you. So you might have action learning groups that managers can form and it be a supportive, confidential place for people to get support, advice, even just a sanding board sometimes. They might not take action, but it just be a way of them being able to deal with challenges that the facing. Yeah, I think also that when we put development interventions in place for managers, it's being really, really aware of the space that is needed to do that learning. So quite often we try and we go, right, we're going to do this, it's going to be half-day learning. We're going to do, you know, one of the things we've been doing internally is developing some leadership training programme, modular programmes that actually get people away from the day to day jobs in a, in a sort of bubble. In a proper space where they get the opportunity to yes, absolutely talk about the academic tools, but then to play with them, see how they feel, see how have have a go at new skills, have a go at using new language. And I think, you know, when I talk to people who are that, like you say, they're kind of reluctant manager, you know, when we look at why why people feel worried about managing people. It's a really vulnerable space for people and I think we need to recognise that and often what I hear is it's people's biggest fear is giving feedback. That sort of permission to, well, why should I, why should I be the person who's giving feedback and I think because when it's task based feedback, it's really easy. I've asked you to do X, you've done it well or you haven't done it or you need to do it better. When we get into that behavioural feedback space, it can start to feel a little bit more kind of subjective and a bit more opinion based and a bit more difficult to, to kind of back up. And I think that's what there is a real fear of in managers. But again, there are tools, but they're not the sort of tools that you can hear about for 10 minutes and go and do. We've got to practice them. We've got to spend time in that space. And I think sometimes there's organisations we want to do everything at pace. And I remember one of my previous clients saying to me, we're always too busy to do anything properly, but whenever it's a busy, we can't do it twice because you have to go back and sort out what you haven't covered. So it is that fear of managing and it's also I think we seem to, I seem to see in new managers particularly that they think, and again, it's almost something I walk out on a Wednesday as a member of the team. And if I walk in on a Thursday as a manager, I suddenly should know everything and it's okay and actually it's great not to know everything because that's what your team's there for. But that understanding that hierarchy isn't, isn't a permission of being right. Other people will have better ideas than you within your team and it's, it's almost that I think you relax into it. I don't know if there I say being a bit longer in the tooth. But you get a bit more comfortable with not knowing all the answers and ambiguity. And I think we need to make our managers know it's okay. No one's expecting you to have all the answers. We're expecting you to facilitate the right conversations and debate for us all to find them together. Given the current state of the sector in terms of recruitment and retention and how difficult organisations are finding it at times. Do you see line management as a possible route for career progression in terms of bringing people through organisations. And if so, how do you go about that in terms of opening up those opportunities? Yeah, I mean, it's an eternal problem, isn't it? Because you get that role and you absolutely want to develop people internally. But often you have that role because there is an immediate need and therefore you want the expertise that perhaps people don't yet have. So I think it's really important for organisations to consider how they're going to look at that potential within people to see let's start, you know, the age old thing is somebody's good at something manager role comes up. We recruit them into a manager role. The view we started to take internally our organisation is making sure that we start equipping people for leadership before their leader management before their managers. So we're working on a sort of aspiring managers program again and again, not all about moving upwards and line management, but about how we develop people within our organisation to see what they might want their next role to be before it becomes available. because then we have people here. da gweithioedd yn manifestsithaeth i'n am Daysburght vibe gen gen angen ysh ynsterق a ni rai dr anedd sydd eu hyn cawais y Tas א ddingur dar gen extendis rud roedd ac eisiaur gen sydd thy werod yr analysau i ddiegu a wedi gyff瑊d rws r舞 arra bacon ar hath gyfer, hyn doeld regnau'n pant swinef, mamm yn tr��� roedd yn gweithio bod yn b plate. 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