What Judges Want- Episode 7- Dawn Garrish

Hello and welcome to what judges want, lime Glenn ball and this is episode 7. Can you believe we're already seven episodes in? You guys asked for it and you guys get what you want, this is a head judge addition. We have the incredible Dawn garish, let's get straight to it. Hey, Dawn. How's it going? It's going good. Glenn, thank you for joining me on a Monday morning. Where are you at the moment? I am actually up in Boston. I've had a great weekend up here to Studios that are just fabulous, Studio One here in Rhode Island and and then bust, ballroom. And Boston, I was at, and then I went to the New England, Dance Festival. We Century event with West Coast Swing stuff in the evening. Okay? And what you head judging their or judging I was judging country stuff but actually because I had to judge the country stuff, some of the Swing stuff was also running at the same time. So no, actually fabulous mr. Robert Cordoba. Okay, head judge of the Swing side. Yeah, while I was doing some of the country steps and then went down and judge some of the Swing. So well that ties in perfectly Perfectly? Because the reason I'm excited to have you on is because you're an awesome judge. But also you head judge around the world and the country. And I I didn't think of this when I first started the series about having a head judge on to kind of explain what they do. And it really shows by all the questions I got, how interested people are by their side of stuff. So we're going to kind of jump between the two, but let's start with your overall judging fur. So we've I've done this where I've said, do you judge different divisions? Do you do the About how do you go from newcomer upwards? So I do actually, I don't miss, I don't want to say I judge differently but I definitely look for different things, relative to different levels. Okay, so we're so, if I were to start at newcomer, I believe the first thing we're always looking for is timing, if the timing is just completely off To me, they're not dancing the dance even though they may be going through the movements or the patterns. So so first thing is going to be timing, then probably start looking at quality of movement to start. Differentiating is bored, I guess, between who I would want to put through and who possibly not to finals. Haha, and when you say, You have movement in in a newcomer. Obviously, we're not expecting loads, but what if you could, if you could describe it to me, what would that be? Good evening. Yeah. So good quality of movement would be smooth over their feet as they're taking the weight changes looking comfortable with the syncopated Rhythm of the anchor. Maybe not to Marchi. Or Steppy, maybe a little bit with the hand or the arm, you know, having it at least fill feeling look comfortable. There are more the connected on Yeah, they're free are you know I used to joke with some of my students I'd say what did you have a stroke? What's up with that hanging arm that's not moving at all? You know I'm like I'm like move it around you know so just to make it look natural. Yeah. Okay so that adds to the Quality that sounds awesome and then going into novice, how does it how does it follow through? Novice. Now, now I would definitely be looking for nice smoothness. Maybe showing me a little bit more Rhythm into the to four sixes eights of a pattern. Definitely the arm should or the free arm or the whole actual free side of the body. But you know, having that be a nice addition to whatever move. Doing now, I'm would start to look for little bit of spotting techniques. I would look for my. Well actually both dancers rolling through their seat, nice using some ankle and knee action type of a thing. Not swinging Too Much from the hips, so it's going to give them more of the Swing look with their hips and nice foot placement. So I'm looking for that more starting in novice patterns wise, I say to every competitor to what you know and do what you do best. The competition floor is definitely not the place to be trying the new pattern that you just learned in the workshop an hour earlier. I wish I had been told that that that was me. What was that whip? I learnt three weeks ago and haven't practiced, I'm gonna try that right now but like That's gonna look impressive. Exactly, that's so true. And then the question I get from from a lot of my novice students but also on the Facebook group is about the teamwork side of it in novice they get told obviously the three T's timing. Teamwork technique. How do you how would you describe what looks like good teamwork as opposed to not, what looks like good teamwork or what's your view on the word teamwork? So For me, the word teamwork, definitely lies in what I'm going to call David, the whole appearance of the dancer. So now let me explain that down. So obviously teamwork, I'm connected as leader or a follower. I'm connected to you and I'm touching your hands. But now we and especially as judges we can see when when the lead is a prep or just a leap forward or sending the sending the partner into something, seeing that both sides are very aware of what is going on. Either with the lead for the follow, in the follows case, I is a lead Center into a double spin. It a little off. So I really make sure I slow down that hand to settle the follow coming out of a turn, you know, seeing those that they're just very aware of what each other is doing. That does not mean that they have to be staring at each other the whole time. But I always say you want want to bring me the judge or the audience into what you're doing. So if that's the case, then what you're doing, I should see your enjoyment out of it. I should see your fun out of it. I should see every little character or Nuance that you want to show me. Either in your movement, your facial expressions, towards probably the partner in a definitely in a prelim situation. You know, if we're talking In spotlights it's a little bit different but so I want to know that your teamwork. You're enjoying leading the partner or you're enjoying following partner. Yeah might be a little vague. I was know that much better when I'm in person. Well yeah I got a warning from your girls that you tend to answer different questions to the one I'll ask. So do you ask you ask you answer the question and Joe What I love is aware. I think that describes that something that's perfect to say, for teamwork, be aware of your partner. I love that, that sounds great. Yeah, yeah, I'm just, I feel like when I go to go to dance or mimic when a student asks me, I'll say here lead, me in that exact same move that you just let her and now I'll have the follows. Watch me and say look how here. Now, I'm very aware and I Making it obvious to who's looking at me. That I'm aware of what that lead is doing and enjoying it. And that's what we judges are looking for when it comes to, in my opinion, teamwork at its basic level. Uh-huh. That sounds good. And then moving up, let's go. What do we did? That was novice kind of and you don't need to go through each division unless their specifics but just kind of how you feel, it goes up as the Improvement of the dancers and the higher. Levels. Yeah. Well so now intermediate at this point, we assume timing we are starting or I'm starting to even assume most quality of movement. Meaning, I'm hoping you're spotting a turn, I'm hoping you're smooth. So the transition between your feet, I'm hoping that your accenting your tooth. Four sixes and eights in a pattern, unless you're hitting music and now is where I would start looking really for more teamwork. And even now, I'm looking for some musical stuff. I'm a big musical. Be Musical. Within the pattern follows. I am. I'm very big on that. I believe that, in most cases of a dance. One person is in charge obviously because if both are in charge, then you see that, but if one person is in charge, I also believe that the leader should be more in charge. Predominantly then the follow. So if the follow wants to be Musical and enjoy the song in their way, they do it within the timing of the pattern that's being led keeping in mind that that's not to say that if there's obvious places that I think the follow can you know, set something up to help the lead. Of course, all over that. Mmm. Yeah, that makes sense. So you're starting to think of that in a for intermediate. Your start is intermediate. Oh, yeah. And by the time I hit Advanced kind of expecting it kind of. Now expecting it one of the hardest things, I think though that sometimes judges need to remember and I'll say it to them every now and then and that it as a head judge is that remember take your Teaching hat off, put your judging hat on. And what I mean by that is by the time we get to Advanced or All-Star particular, couples or particular, dancers may not have the style that, it sure, some of the techniques that, you know, she'll strike versus ball strike, or whatever. But that does not necessarily indicate that it's wrong. And And that they have to remember that there's a little bit of everything you're judging on, so many facets. By the time you get to Advanced and All-Star, take your take your teaching head off. You know, I teach that to spot downline. Another teacher might teach it to spot. The partner neither is correct or incorrect if you're not breaking basic framing or if you're not, you know. So real big on that when it comes to the advanced all stars. Because we're Doing these techniques. And we're expecting musicality and All Stars, set me up some phrase changes, especially in a spotlight place. But would never expect a novice to try to set up a phrase change if a novice hits a break. I think that's awesome. It does not necessarily put them in a final on my score sheet unless I saw That they definitely really set it up. Didn't just happen to get lucky. Yes, that's because most of the time if they try to hit it, they're jeopardizing, something else to do it, and they're not getting the on my score sheet. They don't get the points as much as they think. Uh-huh. If that makes sense. Yeah, if they've given up on some other stuff, correct, and especially most of the time it's timing or technique Just to go back really quick and we'll jump into head judge because that was one of the questions and you are you actually just touched on it that you would tell judges this or tell judges that? How much do you advise judges? How much do you request things that maybe an event director is requested from you? Or that you feel we need to look for is judges. What's your role with that? When you've got the five or seven judges in front of you? Oh, I am very adamant on not actually telling the judges how to judge. Uh-huh. That is the last thing as a head judge. I would ever want someone to do to me. I believe that each event director brings in their own people who they believe they want those opinions for whatever reason, if there Locals, or if they're over, you know, completely qualified. So I believe that no one should tell me and or I should tell no one how to judge that event director hired, me, for my opinion, what? I will guide judges on and I say the word guide because I have found throughout the many years One areas novice dancer may be completely different in a level at another area of the country's novice dancer. So I do sometimes when we see a panel of Judges judging a novice and then have to go into intermediate, you know, I will look at the group of judges and I will say something like, okay, Remember this is intermediate, especially if it's across multiple Heats because the reason is so imagine you just came off of two Heats of novice dancing. And within those two Heats, I have to come up with 25 of my top feet follows. So So we do not take that 25, cut it in half and say, okay, 12 from this teeth and 13 from the seat. You they do not do that. We have to collectively. Do it from the two groups. So now most of your judges are giving like a score and they're trying to remember and they're, they're putting down there, putting little notes and or in the iPad, they're scaling them. And so now the next he Out. They get they get those done. They come up with their 25 will. Now all of the sudden there's one song Break they come back out and and now all of a sudden it's intermediates and that first he comes out and their brain was remembering and they don't. Sometimes I say people that we don't realize it just subconsciously. We remember what we just saw. And now all of a sudden that first heat comes out and you're going, wow, oh my gosh, he's amazing. He's mean, he's, he's amazing. You know, and you start scoring really high, which is a good thing. But yeah, you got another heat. Yeah, you got it. They're heat. And so I will just give little guidance to the judges on the fact that. Okay. Remember this intermediate. Yeah. I won't tell them what that means. Well, tell them what that means to me, but so I'll make sure that I just guide judges in Remembering to flip their brain. However they need to do it. Yes. Yeah and I was going to say no I was just going to say I've actually gone off order now so this kind of doesn't make sense to ask you this now, run down what? No, no is me because I just saw this question, run down what ahead judge does God? I'm a terrible interviewer but now you've spoke about. So like what does your weekend Intel? And actually, this is something I don't know. I've obviously dealt with Moorhead, judges since emceeing so much this is I'm intrigued. Need to know your role and lots of people ask this question. So different size, really different sized events. Dictate my job at a different size. As in staff size, most of the events that I do, I have, I am the head judge and then I also have a contest coordinator. That contest coordinator is the one that will look at okay. Dawn. We have 56 liters and 54 followers, we're going to run it in two Heats and blah blah. You know, because you're picking your heat size relative to the floor size, and the whole bit of a smaller event or a less staffed event. It just depends on how they do. Do it. That would be my job, the head judge would decide that stuff all of the contest coordinating jobs. That smaller events. Normally the head judge does, but otherwise, I truly believe, and I just said this at a workshop, this weekend, I truly believe that the head judge judges, pardon me job is to first and foremost, Be aware of the rules. And I so I feel like I walk into an event. I don't necessarily work for the event director, I work for the event director, who believes that ws, DC is their governing body. So I Believe In My Head kind of that, I work for WS. D c--. Okay, but I really, I really We believe I work for the competitor. I believe that my goal always as a head judge is to make everything fair and to give the judges and the competitor as much time to be able to assess their dancing and make it as Fair as possible to everyone. So therefore heat sizes, cut offs. You know where we going to cut off? How do you just like the cut-offs? That was a question. How do you decide the Kata? Is there a mathematical? Is it what do you take into account? Okay, we're bringing back this, many so WS. D c-- does tell us that it tells us head judges that it points out to so many. Okay, you know, and I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, I'd probably We should, but I always have my little cheat sheet with me when I go to do the cut-offs. Most head judges will try that. They won't promise, but we will try to not do what we call throwaway points, meaning, meaning, it's the contest is going to point to 15, then we really try to bring back 15, okay? But now, and I hope nobody had judge hits me for this one. But on the same note, and this is what now it goes to, what's fair to the competitor, say, what we call the natural break, I have five judges, judging leaders, and, and you can see the top, six have all yeses. The, the next six have two yeses, and an ALT or two yeses and the nothing but they have Two yeses and that's 12, but then these next three have no yeses and all that's it. If you look at that after the 12th leader, the judges as a group 13, 14 and 15 didn't want any. Let's say they didn't they didn't give any of those those leaders a yes, uh-huh. That's a that's a big Natural break. Yeah, sometimes depending on where the follows hit, if the follows, hit around that 1213, rather than bringing back 15 and letting those three leaders, potentially get five. Yes, follow if this is making sense at all. No, it is we won't. We will throw those points away. Because now, those were contestants that the judges as a group did not collectively, even want to see backed if that makes sense. The nest in the theme of the podcast, I can say that makes perfect sense. I'm not sure if you've seen those, but people are teasing me. Yeah, I know. Right. Exactly. But yeah. So it did make sense to me. It made perfect sense, Dawn. So, So what's your role after the event? I got asked like what where does your job finish? My job really doesn't finish until the last Facebook Messenger comes. I would like to think that I have the reputation as a head judge that any competitor is more than welcome if they have a question. In about what happened throughout the weekend, with the contest, you can even ask me, you know, kind of, I think, why did it run late or why did we why did you run that in? Two Heats, why did you decide to run, all how come everything ran into Heats? But then or one heat and then you ran the All-Stars into heat, you know, any question you want? They They can message me and normally I get back to it pretty quick and answer. So normally about a week after the event, Robert was very Robert. Bruce, pardon me, Cordoba was very busy, this weekend with emceeing and had judging. So some people thought because I was talking to the judges, they thought I was the head judge. So I've been getting questions about your food. Robert? Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So I've got some quick fire questions. Notice I say quickfire. Have you gone? Are you still there? Nope. I am still here. I think I lost you and video, but that's fine. I can still hear you. So, the one question I had was how often or actually, how do your scores work within all of this, you're scoring do score leaders and followers, do you? And then how often do they get used those scores? My scores get used on an average, maybe twice and event maybe for Tibor. Yeah, basically the head judge must give a unique score to every person all of us leaders and followers. Wow. And right, so depending on the size of the event, I will sometimes X schedule, another head judge. So so sometimes you'll see two of us are out there ones. Doing leaders and I'm doing followers. Uh-huh. So we'll add a person. I'm trying to think there's other scenarios. If it's a semi or if it's if it's going to go three rounds. Uh-huh. Um, people ask me sometimes, it doesn't have to be even we wanted even going into a final. But if I have 100, let's say, I have 100 contestants on each side. If and we're bringing back 50, if the, if the natural break for the leads is right around that 50. Perfect. Then the follows, if they're more at 55, we can take 55, I guess the judges wanted to see them, there's no reason to have to cut the number the same, okay, we can just rotate going into the next round, five followers in and five followers out. We had some scenarios where when we looked at what did the judges want rather than Following a book or a rule of. Well, you cut it from 100 to 50 and this to this, you know, we were like now we can, let's take it where the judges wanted it. So that's why sometimes that second round. People are like, how come we're not even we should be in and I'm like, well, because the judges didn't feel, they thought they were more of one than the other. Yeah. And then Tolkien of the judges, this was a question that came up a lot. Is there a qualification for the I mean for the judges to judge, do they need to do anything to be able to judge? So it would be the goal of my life. So in the UC W DC World, which is the country, western dance Association, whatever, we have a lot, I have to be certified and then I have three levels of Vacation and we are taught a lot of. We're taught. A lot of things, judges are definitely certified. I would love for that to happen in the swing World. Unfortunately, it's going to take some time to invent that whole process and then you get into will, whose opinion should people be judging on, you know, like what governing body You should say what makes a qualified judge. So I do believe that. What event directors do though is that they pull from people that they respect either their teaching or their past accomplishments. But unfortunately, the answer is no, I don't believe there really are any qualifications. Um, better set in a book somewhere. But I do believe that at all events, I believe the event directors or people that are guiding them. Do try to get people that have been in the business or have proven themselves. Not only has great instructors, knowledgeable or great dancers. Yes. Yeah. And to finish, then in this goes well into that. Have you ever No. I mean do you look for bad? Let's say, bad judging from one of the better word, maybe biases. And would you report back to event directors? Would you do keep an eye on if if someone scores a completely different or I mean, what's your view on that? Like obviously I even as MC or as a judge I've noticed where it might be. Oh that that I'm going to use French just because I couldn't think of another country. I'm not saying about all that. French judge. Put that french guy fruit. Do you do? Keep a view on that. Or how does that work with you? So throughout the years I have had contestants who are normally much more up on that because they look bring me things. And have said, just want to bring this to your attention, this is the third event. I've been at that so-and-so has put so and so Always ahead of where they end up falling relative to the collective judges and I keep my eye on it. I do feel that if I have judges, haven't had this happening in a long time, but I have had instances where we're judging judges are judging Pro-Am and you're working with a All you know, you're working with bronze, silver, gold or gold graduates and amongst the six contestants. The judge gave everyone a gold. Uh-huh. Pretty much not effective. Yes. Those contestants may all have been gold level but somebody had to be better. Yes and someone else so unfortunately that judge Judge, even though they may have judged it their personal way, they thought they were all gold, they were just above average. Well, somebody has to be above above average, so the judges need to make a difference and when they put them all the same. So I've had instances where I've watched judges and I'll say to them, I'm not saying you have to shed an opinion. If you think they're all gold, then they're all gold. Yeah, but I like to think of five contestants And somebody might be a silver and a couple of might even be, you know, and gold with honors if that makes sense at all. Yeah, so judges still have had that instance. The other instance I have seen is and, and it has happened to me even where I had somebody in first and they ended up in fist. Does that necessarily mean that I I am biased towards them. No, but I better have a good reason. Yes. And I always tell the judges, I don't look to see if you have these big differences. But if I happen to come to you, all I ask is that, you know why? Because it's not for me to say as a head judge whose correct and whose incorrect it's just for you to stand behind your score. Yeah. It's all they have to do stand behind your scoring. Why I lie down. This is my biggest thing. And I would love to like to finish on this because everyone's talking about the judging, at the moment. Mainly, because of the podcast, I know Doug Rosa did a thing about judging and you just nailed it that their issue. I think we have is no one ever asks me, why when I judge no one comes up to me and says, hey you put them in 12 and they won. Why? And it's not that I want to be told I'm wrong. I just want a chance to explain myself and, you know, and that's what I think would would work for us. Us as judges and else is a community. Where like it's if I cuz I do it with Susan, I go. Why did you put them in six? And then we have a conversation about it. And and she always has a reason and that's it. I just feel. We don't have those conversations, but I understand he because of time money. That would mean, we don't need stay on a Sunday night. Maybe to talk through our school you know, or the Wednesday after we do a zoom call. But so I've thought about it a lot that's that's the way I think. West Coast Swing needs to go. Where is You get us all into a room and we look at the scores go. This one was all consistent. Hey, this one. Glenn, why did you put them in faith and everyone else had him in 12th or you know? And I think it'd be really fun to sit and talk about, but yeah, time is money. I mean, other than other than spotlights, that would be a great conversation. But like in strictly finals where there's 15 couples and you do, I will say sometimes, Especially in strictly because when you take a group of five judges in, this is just basic what I'm going to call basic math. You take a group of take five people and you throw 15 couples out there who are all G electively. Kind of the same level. There might be one or two that are far better and one or two that are way down at the bottom but otherwise they're all coming. In the middle, you throw 15 of them out there and that group of five judges are going to come up. With scores all over the place. Yeah, you take that same five people and you cut that group down to 10 and you seriously start seeing now a collective amount of agreement or a closer amount of agreement. So, one of the first things that I learned 11:45 is not so much, but once you hit that 10 Mark, or that ate Mark, man. You start seeing those judges be more concise consistent with each other. So, I take that and say why? Because the judges are still Judges. So it's the amount of time in which the judges had to watch and assess. So now if time is the most important thing for that judge it's just time. We will agree more when we see more so I just do everything I can to just make sure that the judge that the tool in which the judges are using So hopefully is the quickest way to take what's in their brain and what they see and get it onto a piece of paper and get it into an iPad because I want them watching more than I want them looking down. Yes, it proved it so quickly and that's why sometimes you'll see strictly. I'll push it to a lower number sometimes because now Within that 15, though. I don't want to walk away now that I think about it. I don't want people to walk away, that that first-place couple is not that first-place couple. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm saying how they got to first as a lot more consistent? Yes, amongst lower numbers and more time to watch. Yeah, yeah. Well I can't thank you enough for joining me. Especially when you're when you're on your holidays in Boston. Yeah. Well, not yet. Oh my gosh, it was amazing. So take the day after and go whale watching. It was just just amazing. They were preaching. And oh it was just the coolest thing. You feel kind of like a bath toy It's really incredible. And I have to say not once, did you go off? So you can tell your girls that you did. Awesome. And you stayed and track. Yay. I'll make sure Alexis Taylor knows. Thank you so much for listening guys. We have one more episode in the series coming next Wednesday. So get your questions in find the W judges want Facebook group or send me Glenn a message on Facebook please please please keep sending in your questions even if they've been answered before, I want to ask next week's judge those questions. Thank you for supporting, please share it. We need more people listening, and we will be back for a season 2. Very, very soon often next week. So this is definitely not stopping. Thank you so much, guys. I'll see you next week.