507. What it Takes to Win in the Most Public Forum with Camille Vasquez

(upbeat music) - It's one thing to represent a celebrity. They obviously get attention. There are celebrities, right? He's an actor, he's a musician, but we never ever imagined that this would turn into attention for the lawyers. - Welcome to the Game Changing Attorney podcast, where the top minds from the legal industry and beyond share what it takes to dominate your market, build a world-class team, and change the game. I'm Jessica Mogul, head of coaching strategy at Chris. The number one law firm growth company in America. Chris was built through practice, not theory. Chris started with just $500 and has grown to over nine figures in revenue over the last few years, earning a spot on the E500 list of the fastest growing private companies in America. Our approach has been to take everything we've learned about generating massive growth within our own organization and help the country's most ambitious and committed law firm owners do the same for theirs. Every year, the top law firm owners in America attend the Chris Game Tanger Summit in Atlanta, Georgia for two days of world-class speakers, transformational law firm growth strategies and unparalleled networking. The road to the summit starts here. From now until the 2026, Chris Game Changer Summit, join us as we relive and revisit some of our favorite moments from past summits. Today, we're looking back to the 2022 Chris Game Changer Summit, featuring my conversation with Camille Vasquez, renowned litigation attorney, best known for her work on the high-profile defamation trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Hurd. I sat down with Camille to discuss, how over-preparation and radical authenticity create unshakeable confidence in high stakes environments, the power of active listening and teamwork when managing intense pressure, and why managing reputation in the court of public opinion is just as critical as winning in the courtroom. Let's get into it. (upbeat music) I don't think she needs much of an introduction. So first and foremost, thank you so much for being here and obviously everyone knows you from the Johnny Depp case, but I also want to ask you a lot of things beyond that because I actually relate from that from I'm not just Michael's wife, so I don't want to just be known as that, so I know you probably don't want to be known as the Johnny Depp case all the time. Let's go all the way from the beginning. Like what even, why did you pursue law? I felt like I really didn't have a choice. I, in some way, my parents are immigrants to this country, my mother is Cuban and my father is Colombian, and I joke that they gave my sister and me two options. Doctor, lawyer, pick one. I picked the lawyer and my sister is a doctor, so-- - I hope so you hit both. - Yes, they have one of each. I joke, they're very proud but broke. By the time they're done with our educations, but like a lot of people probably in this room, math and science weren't my strongest subjects in school, and I just gravitated towards law and pre-law and writing and oral advocacy. - Okay, so you just always knew that was what you were going to do. So you obviously have moved really, really quickly in a lot of ways and lives, and what would you say is a big contributing factor to even your success? - Being authentic is something that has always-- it's been advice that was given to me from a young age. Just stay true to who you are, be authentic, especially as a trial lawyer. I think juries and judges can tell if you're not being genuine and authentic, so stay true to who you are and doing what you love. I mean, I'm really lucky that I get to do what I love and that I feel like this is something that I was meant to do, right? So I feel very privileged in the sense that I get to make money doing something that I really enjoy doing. - Yeah, and have you done a lot of trial cases prior to this? - I've done, I mean, a fair number considering how many years of practice. So about five trial jury trial cases. So by the time that I started the Johnny Depp trial, got it, got it. And through this process, as you know, you said, okay, this was my only choice. So who did you look up to as you were climbing this path and this career? - I did watch when I was in sixth grade the O.J. Simpson trial. And I had the pleasure of working for Robert Shapiro when I was a law student. My mother said to me, why don't you pick up the phone and call him and see if he'll take your call. And I thought, yeah, mom, like Bob Shapiro is just gonna take this random girl's call. And she was right, like, his mom's 10 to be. And he did and we established a relationship and throughout the years and then when I was in law school he offered me an internship. So he was a trial lawyer that I obviously admired. I mean, they were called the dream team. Then it was the first public televised trial that I can recall other than obviously many years later the Johnny Depp trial that was televised. So I think Robert Shapiro was one of my mentors and I was really lucky that I got to work with him. - And as you have gone through this journey, obviously you've probably learned what some of your strengths are as well as your weaknesses and at Chris and what we coach everyone on is really like, we're gonna lean into what we're really great at. And what would you say you're not good at that you've learned over the years? - I think I'm really self-critical. And I think that that's something that we probably all suffer from and maybe the women in the room probably understand that a bit more. But I use it as a strength too, right? I think that it inspires me to work harder 'cause I want to have the answers in the room, right? I want, because I know I'll be challenged, especially I think as a woman in this profession, you know you're gonna be challenged. And so the best way to make sure you have the confidence is to over-prepare. - Yeah, absolutely. And what's probably one of the biggest challenges you have faced as a woman? - I think being underestimated. - Yes, yes, which I really like. - Yes, right. - I love to be underestimated, it's fine now. But yeah, I think being underestimated, especially as a younger- - Absolutely. I'm actually an engineer on paper. So I was also a handful of the females in all of the classes. So I get that. - Yes. - And what impact do you think you can make, though, for the future of females in this industry? - Well, I think just like any other profession, you need someone or people to look up to, right? As you're going through growing up and you wanna see whose life or career you can emulate. And so with the great privilege that I have now, because of this case and the platform I have, there's a lot of responsibility and I take that very seriously. There's a lot of young women and especially women from the Hispanic backgrounds or a lot of backgrounds that look up to me, right? And I take that incredibly seriously and everything from the cases I choose going forward to the engagements that I decide to work on. I think that that's something that is at the forefront of my mind. - Yes, you can be very selective in setting that example. So I will pivot to the case just a little bit. - Sure. - So first and foremost, how were you even introduced to the Johnny Depp case? - So I've been working with Johnny for the last four and a half years. Before this case came about, I worked with him on he had some other litigation in California. He sued his former business managers in a business litigation matter. And then he sued his former lawyers for illegal malpractice matter. So through that, those engagements, I developed a relationship with him. And truth be told, I didn't think that filing this lawsuit was a good idea. Oh wow, I, you know, but it was incredibly personal lawsuit for him. And hopefully the last lawsuit he has to engage in, but it was obviously very personal. And after it was filed, he approached me along with my partner Ben Chu and asked if I would join the team. And I was one of the few women on the team. And I really think that this case called for a woman's perspective. - Absolutely. - And in the strategy and then obviously in the examinations of certain witnesses, it was really my honor to be able to represent him in this matter because it was so personal to him. - Absolutely. And some of the other podcast and things I've read about as well, it sounds like the firm even really wanted you this due to some of your leadership capabilities. So what do you think are your biggest strengths as a leader? - Well, I think to be a leader, right? It's your part of a team. And you can't underestimate that. I mean, anyone that saw the trial understands the amount of preparation and teamwork required. This wasn't just me, right? It took me staying up till four in the morning getting two hours of sleep and having the rest of the cross-examination outline put under my door in a hotel. That's teamwork, right? I mean, that's what it really requires. So I think my favorite thing is being able to work together with people that I respect and that I like. I think in this profession, it's hard to find. Sometimes people that, I mean, you can find really smart, intelligent, good lawyers but people that are good lawyers but also really good people, right? I think that's harder to find. And I found that in my team work that we pulled it off. I mean, we were a bunch of relatively young associates, right? I mean, I was an associate up until the summer. So we were a relatively young group of associates that banded together and did this major, major case. Absolutely. And speaking of those late nights and the two hours of sleep, I think this is obviously a room of entrepreneurs. People can relate. So that, I've been there, I've done that. How does you manage the stress through all of that? - I don't know that I managed it. (laughs) I think I just kind of didn't even, like, realize what was happening, you know? It's like you kind of go into a routine where it's, you have no other option, but to work really, really hard and survive. Like, obviously the cameras were there, but in a lot of ways we forgot about them, but I think for me and for probably my team members, as well, we just didn't want to embarrass ourselves in front of the whole world. - Yes. - It really inspired us to work that much harder, right? - For sure. - You were really prepared. - Under every, like, probably every bit of thing was just getting examined and microscopes and all of that. So for anyone in the room who's not familiar with the case, 'cause I think it's what 300 million viewers, I think we're on this, can you give us crazy numbers? - I mean, it's literally, OJ, it went from that to OJ, so can you just give a very high level of what this case was even about? - Yeah, absolutely, it was a defamation case that we filed in Virginia. It was based on an op-ed that Johnny Depp's ex-wife, Amber heard, wrote for the Washington Post, where she stated and implied that she was a victim of domestic violence. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, and through that, and I'm gonna kind of go back to the leadership side of it, because like you said, it takes a team, and that is one thing I will preach about forever because you're nothing without your team, basically, but what would you say are your biggest challenges as a leader? - Well, I think the responsibility and the pressure that knowing that people are looking to you, right, to be that example, to have the answers, right? - Right. - But that is a tremendous amount of responsibility that you have, and it's not just your team, but it's also the client, right? I mean, this was his opportunity to tell his story, right? Finally, six years in the making, and this was, as I said at the outset, an incredibly personal case for him. This was something he couldn't speak about for six years, ever since these allegations were first made. So that responsibility and knowing that I was leading the charge with my partner, Ben Chiu, I didn't take that lightly. - Yeah. And is there a moment of the case or trial or anything that is like the most memorable to you, or a moment that stood out the most? - There's a lot. I mean, I think the cross-examination of Amber Heard was something that I will never forget, but I do watch sometimes clips of it, and I'm like, is that me? I think that as trial lawyers, we go into a zone, right, and we block out. - Yeah, and it's you zone in, and it's a dance, right? I really feel like it's a dance, and it's about active listening, and I can't underestimate that enough. You have to listen to the answers, right? The questions are obviously important, and you want the jury at the end of the examination to be listening more to the questions and even the answers, but in order to pivot and to ask the right questions, I think you have to listen to the answers. She gave me a lot of material to work with because I was listening, yes, absolutely. And did you doubt yourself at all through this case? - Oh, of course. (laughing) Yeah, yes, of course. - How did you deal with that? 'Cause it's already, like you said, it's a challenge already, you're a woman in this industry, you're already underestimated, so how do you mentally overcome that? - Just work harder than everyone else in the room. - Yeah. - Just go back to basics. I don't know that there is a substitute for working hard. I mean, you just have to be that much more prepared. - I agree with that, and I know that was probably instilled in you at a very young age, just as it was for me, so I understand that. Did you ever consider that losing this case was an option? - This might sound strange, but no. I know it's a defamation case. I know it was an impossible case to win. A lot of people said. But I knew that we were on the right side of it. I believed him, fatically. I had no question in my mind that he did not do this. Was he a perfect person? No, no one is. And did he have his own struggles? Absolutely, like we all do. But did he commit domestic violence in this relationship or in any of the relationship? No, and I believed him. So no, I didn't ever think we could lose. - Yeah. - If we executed the strategy appropriately and the way that we had put it together. - Yeah, so I thought if things went the way that we had planned for them to go, there was no other option but a verdict in our favor. - Right, right. - And how has this changed your life? I mean, and so many ways I would say, like were you ready for the attention that was going to come? - No, no, I mean, it's one thing to represent a celebrity, right? I mean, they obviously get attention. He's an actor, he's a musician. But we never ever imagined that this would turn into attention for the lawyers, right? - Other than the O.J. Simpson case, right? There had never really been a case where the lawyers got this much attention. So yeah, it's dramatically changed my life, but mostly for the better. I mean, there's a lot less anonymity. - Yes, yeah. - That I have to kind of deal with now and I'm kind of a shy person. I enjoy my alone time. - Yes. - So I like to say, but yeah, I think again, with great privilege comes great responsibility. And I take this new role and these new opportunities that I have seriously. - Yeah, what has been the biggest challenge that's really come with the fame of all of this? - I think losing a little bit of your anonymity, feeling like you've lost a little bit of yourself. - Yeah, right? I mean, I think Johnny has said to me many times and it's such a, it's really touched me. He said, I live my life behind windows, whether it's car windows, plane windows, hotel windows. And I think until it happens to you, where you become quote unquote famous, you don't realize and appreciate the normal things that we all get to do, right? It's like go and have a meal with somebody you love and not be interrupted, you know? Or be, you know, take a photo taken of you as you're like mid-bite, things like that. And it's not to that level at all for me, but I think just seeing like a little glimpse of that is like, oh wow, it makes you understand what someone like Johnny has gone through mostly his whole life. And I'm sure again, the bigger you get, the more criticism you get. And I'm sure that has also exponentially grown. How do you stay in a headspace of like not doubting yourself as much knowing, I mean, you won the case, but you're still gonna get a lot of criticism. - Yeah, we did. We got some criticism. But I think just focusing on the fact that I knew we were on the right side of this one. - Yeah. - And we did the best job for our client, right? I mean, we're service providers. That's what lawyers are. We're their voice in court or otherwise. And that's what we did for him. So, you know, the criticism, it's always going to come. I use it to make me stronger. And not worry too much about what people think, you can't. Somebody once said to me when I was much younger, not everyone in life is going to like you. And that's okay. - Yeah, that's better to be respected than liked. - Absolutely. And prior to this, like you said, you've done other cases, things like that. We had Laura Wasser here yesterday. So big, of course, celebrity, divorce attorney. And I asked her, you know, how are those cases different than others? How could you elaborate on that? So how is a celebrity case different than a normal case? - Well, I think obviously with a celebrity case, you're going to get a lot more attention. And I think that's something that as lawyers, there's a transition that's happening, in my opinion. So I'm the head of now, our brand reputation management department at my firm. And I think we're seeing that. It's a new practice area, right, of the firms. And we're seeing more and more corporate clients, high net worth celebrity type clients asking for that service in conjunction with legal services. And I think I can't underestimate how important I think that is, because you can win the court of law, but if you lose in the court of public opinion, you've lost. And clients are realizing this, and like I said, whether they're corporate or they're individuals, they're realizing that their brand and that their reputation is equally important up to them. And if you can work in conjunction with PR or crisis managers, and you have the skills to be able to advise on statements and positioning and even client strategy and litigation strategy, I think that's something that I'm seeing a lot of clients asking for that. - Okay, that's great, yeah. And you're young, I think we're actually the same age. And so you've got so much ahead of you. So what's next for Camille? - I'm really lucky I get to do what I love. I mean, I just, I have now the luxury of picking and choosing certain cases that ring true to me and that I'd like to work on. So I just want to continue with doing good work for people that I feel passionate about helping. - Yes, and how do you think you can expand even your mentorship? Like you said, so many people look up to you, is there anything you're doing even within your own firm or anything? But how are you going to, I guess, even build your brand? - I mean, that's in the works, right? All of this has happened so overnight, but it's something that's really important to me. So I mean, speaking at universities, at law schools. I just participated last week at UCLA hosted a mock trial for law schools across the country. And I, they actually was based on our case, which was, they got a lot of smiles out of me, some of the facts of the case. And, you know, just being able to judge that competition and give these students, law students that are so incredibly impressive, some a little bit of advice, right, and offer my mentorship because I really do mean it. I mean, if someone is interested in having me mentor them or give them advice, I do take the time to respond to those emails and make those phone calls. Absolutely. Give it back. Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, from a very young age, you were instilled like very hard work and you went through long, long hours with this. And I'm sure that will not be the last time, but why keeps you going? What motivates you? I think they enabled to be the best advocate for my clients. I think that people utilize the legal system in this country, usually during the worst times of their lives, right? And it's not accessible as it should be. And we are that bridge, right? We're the person that explains this complex system that's reserved for the educated and the ultra-rich, right? And I take that seriously. Yeah. And outside of career, which I think is probably a large part of who you are, but who's Camille? Like, you know, you said you're the daughter of two immigrants, things like that. Who are you outside of your career and profession? It's a great question. This is Camille. I mean, I'm a daughter. I'm a sister. I'm an aunt. I take that really. That's the most special role that I have right now. I mean, my niece is two and a half and the love of my life. Yes, there's no one more important in my life than her. I'm just a normal seven California girl. I mean, I grew up in a really middle class family and just my parents would often say to my sister and me, like, we're not going to give you chores, but you do have to get good grades. Yeah. That's, you've got one job. You've got to go to school. You've got to work really hard. What do your parents think of us? I'm just sure this is all new to them as well. I mean, they're just like what happened? But my niece is the most important thing in everyone's lives. So, yes, you know, I kind of used to be the favorite. Now my mom is like, she goes days without calling me. Once there's kids, we don't matter anymore. She's like, I'm with us, me. That's so funny. So if anyone in here is, you know, they're thinking of a high profile case or they, you know, what advice would you give them first to even landing a high profile case? I think you have to network, right? I mean, you have to network in the areas that you're interested in. So if you want to represent celebrities, then you have to start networking and working on cases that are connected to that. So IP is a great place to start. A lot of celebrities are, you know, high net worth individuals have IP trademarks, IPs. So I think that's a great place to start, you know, networking with you, even if you don't do IP, I think it's, it's a way to, to start working with people that are in that industry, right? It's networking and working really hard and making sure that the right people notice you. Yeah. Is there anything you wish you knew before the trial? Oh, yeah. Should have made everything really private. Like Instagram. Be myself from all of that. I can't tell you on all of our promotions for this event, how many fan accounts you have on Instagram now. Literally, they are following this event and commenting like, when is Camille coming on? When is Camille coming on? It's really sweet. Yes. And then I guess for once you do land a case like that, what piece of advice would you give someone? I mean, realize that a lot more eyes are going to be on you. And so, over-prepare. Yeah. Over-prepare because they will scrutinize and critique every face you make, every, you know, like, eye roll as I've learned. And every mistake, and they will also champion you. But right, you have to over-prepare. Yes, absolutely. And then, of course, this being the Game Changer Summit, what does being a Game Changer mean to you? It means everything to me. I mean, to be able to have this platform, to be able to speak to my colleagues, right? And this profession means so much to me. It's given me so much. And I'm grateful for it. So being a Game Changer means being interesting, but being interested as well. I want to give a huge thank you to Camille Vasquez for sharing her valuable insights with us at the 2022 Crisp Game Changer Summit. You've been listening to the Game Changer Attorney podcast with Michael Mogul. If you found this episode valuable, here are three free ways that we can help you grow your law firm. Number one, download the first chapter of Michael's book Absolutely free at GameChangingAttorney.com. Number two, you can shoot Michael a text at 404-531-766-91 and ask him any question you'd like. You might just hear the answer on the next episode. And finally, number three, if you can leave this podcast a five-star review, it will help us gain access to more influential thought leaders and bring their lessons learned here to you. For more information on this episode, see the show notes in your podcast app or visit legalpodcast.com.