Speaker 1I really don't know what it's like anywhere else, but the biggest red flag for us is if it has wetlands. You can have a great-looking flat lot, looks perfect, right on the road, already developed, and have sewer water going right up to it. But if it has wetlands, it's not buildable for us.
Speaker 2Hey, what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast. I am your host, Ryan Glick. I'm excited today to be joined by Sam Brown. Sam is the construction manager at RGB Custom Builders. Sam, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me, Ryan. It's been a long time coming. I'm excited. That's right. That's right. We've been talking about this for a while, of recording. So I'm glad we're finally able to connect and actually record an episode together. And you know the drill with the podcast and kind of where we start and some of the things we want to get into in the beginning. And really, I think I'd like to hear your perspective and kind of your journey around, you know, not only probably starting in RGB Young, since it's somewhat of a family business, but also just the early days of your time in the industry, what that looked like for you.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely. And I guess I'll start off with really the founding of RGB. My dad, starting it back in 1986, always been in the Poconos, Pennsylvania. So Northeast Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, if you're not aware of where the Poconos are. And just a quick overview. So he started it back in 1986, housing market and the Poconos was booming. Well, he originally started right out of high school and semi in college, building bridges and being part of that crew and then started building houses on the side. And he built his first house as a rental and then immediately sold it because the lady just wanted to buy it. Then he moved into. Doing it full time after a few years. And then probably right around 2000, 2001, 2002, somewhere in that area, we started getting into the more land development side and developing our own land and not just being reliant on what other people are developing. So we started doing that. Now, our main thing is the home building. So we'll do home building for four. Customers on their lot or one of our lots and one of our exclusive communities that we develop in the Poconos or we'll build on an existing lot or we'll help find someone a lot.
Speaker 2OK. And then so for your participation in the company and kind of how you started, do you have you always worked for the company or did you go out and do some other things besides working with your dad?
Speaker 1So, yes, I've always worked for RGB. I started one. Those. Really young. I started going out with the guys to the job sites probably around 11 or 12. I was in the truck with the guys helping out. But at that point, just moving lumber, just being the job site and then progressing. I pretty much worked in every aspect of the building industry, at least on the residential side. And then moving forward after college as a 20 something year old. You're never really sure what you exactly want to do. So I still on my hand and RGB, but we're exploring different avenues, but always stayed with RGB. And then about five years ago, I've fully committed. And I mean, to me, I'm biased, but there's nothing better than building and also on the land development side. How do you not like just going out to properties and land that just seeing the vision and trying to put something together? And I'm leaning more into that right now.
Speaker 2Well, I definitely want to get more into that here in just a little bit. I think something that's always really interesting to me as I talk to people who are a part of a family business and they have that period of time where, you know, they're trying to make the decision. Do I want to go and branch out and do my own thing? Do I want to, you know, do I want to participate in the family business and maybe continue to keep that legacy alive of keeping the company going? Right. Because if. You know, if you don't, I don't know if you have any siblings, but if you didn't and you didn't have siblings, then in theory, maybe the company would get sold at some point, you know, when your dad decides to retire and then it's no longer in the family. And so, you know, what kind of things went into your decision making on, you know, committing to the company?
Speaker 1So that was a, I guess, hard decision right in college and right after college, just because growing up, I always said I was going to be a builder. There was no question in my mind I was going to be a builder. And just in college, you're exploring a couple of different avenues, seeing what's out there. At one point, I was thinking, oh, maybe I should get into the finance industry. But then I like that side. But like you said, if I want to go off and if someone's in my position, truthfully, I didn't necessarily know anyone who was looking to take over their family business. So I didn't really have anyone to ask or see what their thoughts were on the matter. But going into that decision making, I knew eventually I'd want my own thing to work on. But then after some realization, going into RGB, I have to shout out my dad, Bob Brown, because he is just a wealth of knowledge. And he is by far just a great mentor. Just so much knowledge to pull out in the industry. Right now, I'm still just an employee, just learning. The ropes and everything. But eventually knowing, hopefully, I have the opportunity to take it over and continue the legacy of RGB. So my thought process went from, OK, that's never going to be just my thing to, OK, I'm able to add on to it and I'm able to make it or continue the great company. So that's kind of where my headspace was, because I'm sure there are a lot of other people. But getting over that hurdle and knowing once you have control of it, you're able to make it your thing. But if it's something great and something not to go too much into the background of RGB, but RGB is a real prominent custom home builder. We do specs and custom homes, and we're pretty well regarded in the Poconos. And that's all just because my dad and his relationship. So joining a company like that and then keeping it going, just nothing better, honestly.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, I like the thought process in that and the philosophy, too, because I think and I've heard I've heard from people who have gone out and done their own thing and been successful with it. But I think that sometimes the grass isn't always greener. And sometimes the thing you're actually looking for is right there staring at you in the face that, you know, you have you have a great mentor in your dad who's been there, done that. And. I do think it can be challenging when you want to step into that role. But the way you're doing going about it, you know, you're working in the company in different roles. So that way you understand it. And I think one of the I feel like from what I've heard, one of the most challenging things is getting the respect of the others in the company when you do eventually step into that role. And one of the best ways to do that is to prove yourself in the different positions so they don't they don't think that you, you know, quote unquote, have a silver spoon. And you were just you were just put right into that spot without having to prove yourself and work your way up in the company. And so I think all that sounds really cool. And I'll be interested to see kind of how this how your journey evolves in the coming years and stuff as you continue to move up in the company. And at some point in the future, if, you know, your dad decides to retire and you go into that role, that's going to be pretty interesting to see how that plays out.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm not sure if he's ever going to retire. He's just one of those guys that just loves it. But we will see. And going off your silver spoon analogy, I would just have to say that I have been fortunate and we've been fortunate because a lot of people in our year in our company and our subcontractors have been with us 10, 20, even 30 years. So I've actually just grown up around all of them and been on the job sites with them. And this type of position, you definitely don't want to be someone showing up late, leaving early, get to show up on time before and put. And the work and you do have to earn the respect. It's definitely not something that at least for myself and I would imagine everyone else that you just don't expect it. You had to definitely earn it.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, you've talked a little bit about your family business and what you guys do. I'd like to get into a little bit more about your role and some of the things that you work on day to day. You know, you'd mentioned that you're you've been getting more into the development side, which is really interesting. To you, what is can you walk us through what you're in your current role? What what your day to day looks like or what you're responsible for?
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely. So right now I am kind of in a transition type of role. So I am a construction manager where our VP of construction and head construction manager is actually my uncle, Joe Brown. So it's a it's a true family business. Yeah, yeah. He takes care of all the scheduling. I also help. with making sure job sites are going as needed. Make sure the subs are doing what they need to be doing. I also take care of all the permitting for all the job sites. So zoning, building, development, and I'm starting to get more into the NPDES permits. So stormwater management and grading plans and that type of stuff as well.
Speaker 2Now, do you, when you're developing your lots, are you developing with the intention of doing all the building on it or do you sell to other builders as well?
Speaker 1We don't sell to any other builders. We're just, if we develop it, we're the exclusive builder for that land just because it doesn't necessarily make sense for us to sell it to someone else to end up building.
Speaker 2Well, it makes sense. And I would guess too that, and just maybe from your perspective, what. What do you think having, you know, knowing that you're developing the land for yourselves to build homes on that land, what kind of advantage do you think that gives you? You know, because a lot of times, you know, developers, if they're selling 100% of their lots to other builders or even consumers, depending on what their target audience is when they're actually developing, and they have to do different types of market research and they have to figure out who they're going to sell these lots to, you know, create some relationship with different builders, what kind of advantage do you think that gives you? I would say it definitely helps a lot, especially with land
Speaker 1development in our area, just because there's really not a lot of people doing land development in a lot of areas. I'm just thinking of one township where, let's say, you have a 10-acre, 20-acre piece of land. To get one lot, you need two acres of. So, in that case, you can have two acres, but if there's wetlands, which require wetland setbacks, extreme setbacks, if it has steep slopes, if there's an easement going through, you need two acres of buildable land. So, if they have those types of items on that piece of land, then the lot just gets bigger and bigger. So, to get two acres of buildable land, you can end up having a lot that's. Three, four, five acres large because of that. So, then that ends up making the lot a lot more pricey. So, it bumps up the price. So, then, really, unless you're in a PRD, so Planned Residential Development area that's zoned, it's very rare to find a half-acre lot that's not a really crappy lot in the Poconos. Most of the lots nowadays are around the two-acre mark just for new lots. So, that can. Bump up the price. And then, so knowing that, going into it and being the builder, knowing what type of house you can put on it and traffic is going to be able to afford the house because if you have a five-acre parcel of land, you don't necessarily want to put a 1,200-square-foot house on it. You're probably going to want to up it to maybe a 2,200, 2,500-square-foot house.
Speaker 2What are some things that you look for? When you're looking for a good piece of property to be able to build a house on, what are some things you're looking for?
Speaker 1The things you look for, just right off the get, is what everyone's looking for. You're looking for kind of flat, the ability to have utilities go to it, a good layout. If you have a piece of land that has a lot of road frontage, then that can save you a lot of money on installing a new road. So, that's always good. And I guess, for people that don't live in the mountains, which it's really the plateaus, the Pocono plateaus, we can't build on certain steep slopes. I forget the exact percentage of what the slope is, but once it gets to a certain percentage, you're not allowed to build on that. It becomes unbuildable unless you have a special use permit. So, we have that. We have to be wary of wetlands in the Poconos. Like I said before, they're very protected. We have to be very careful with the conservation districts. And we also have to look at any development that we're going to do is going to end up pushing into the NPDES permit, which is over an acre of disturbance. So, we're going to have to think about how much of this land is actually going to be built for homes and how much is it going to have to be used for the stormwater management and what those costs are going to be. So, right now we have, most of our developments, I hear you have, I'm pretty sure you just had someone on talking about a 12,000 lot development.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah. I'm trying to think who it was, but yeah, there was somebody relatively recently that was a part of a really, I mean, that was one that spanned, I mean, a couple of decades, you know, it was a really long project.
Speaker 1Yeah. Just hearing those, I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't even know where you'd put that in our area, which is crazy to think about. But a lot of our developments, right now that we're developing, are in the 8 to 15, 18 lot area. So, that's pretty much what we're getting out of the parcels of land that we have. Nice. I was just
Speaker 2thinking about something too, because earlier you said that you'll not only build homes on your own lots that you develop, but you also will build custom homes on lots that are owned by a prospective customer, right? They reach out to you, they already have a lot and they want you to build on it. So, what are some of those key differences that you run into? I mean, obviously, when you're developing your own land, you can develop it to your specs that will make the building fit how you operate and everything. But when you're going out to a customer-owned site, there might be some things you run into that make some of those projects challenging. What are some things that you run into with those?
Speaker 1So, a good amount of time, it's a lot that have been already developed in a development. So, those are pretty easy. Even if we help them find a lot, then it might be a little more difficult just because if they're the last lots in the development, there's probably rock that needs to be hammered, or it's just a little harder with the grade to get the house to sit nicely. But going off of people that have their own acreage, let's just say five plus, a lot of the things that end up probably costing the customer more money and maybe the potential of putting it where they want it to be. So, that's a good point. So, a lot of the things that end up costing the customer more money and maybe the potential of putting it where they would have liked, are those setbacks to the streams, setbacks to the wetlands, maybe rock. I remember a few years ago, someone bought this great piece of property. It had a phenomenal view, but it was maybe 150 feet up a rocky side hill, and we had to hammer the driveway in all the way up. So, to all the customers out there listening, you should really, whoever you go with, even if you're going into Poconos and you don't go with us, you should really just talk to them. And see what you can actually build, because there's a lot of things that you can look up online and you think you know, and then by the time you buy the land and then move forward with it, it can cost you a lot more than you think. We've had people come to us that most of the time were able to figure it out, but sometimes there are times where we had to push people to different lots because of easements or the property they didn't realize was landlocked or there was wetlands. There was wetlands all around it and there was no crossing.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was going to say, probably very similar to developers in that, you know, the advice to developers is always that you don't tie up a piece of land and, you know, you don't commit yourself to a piece of land, I should say, and actually go under contract without a way to get out of it if you uncover certain things. Because if you can't do the project you plan to do there, then you don't want to be stuck with that piece of land that's not going to be worth what you're probably paying for it.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah. And nowadays with changing regulations, they don't change. Not too dramatically, but I know this is probably sacrilegious for land developers, but holding a piece of land for 20 years and then developing it, a lot's going to change in the regulations of what you're going to be actually able to build. So just do your due diligence and talk to the right people.
Speaker 2Do people, when people approach you that, and consumers who are looking to build a home, when they approach you, do you see most of those people come to you as with a location in mind? Or do they want to pick? The floor plans first before location? Because we always hear location, location, location, right? People want to be in a certain spot. But when I've talked to builders in the past, I sometimes am told it's 50-50. Some people come and they want this home, and they focus on that before they even talk about where they can put that home. What do you see? Like you just said, it's probably 50-50.
Speaker 1Just because you have some people that come in, just know they kind of want to be in this area, live in this area. We're right on the border of New Jersey, so we have a lot of people. We actually have a. We have a good population of people that commute to New York City and to Hoboken and to New Jersey just because it's more affordable in our area, even just right over the border. We have a lot of people coming in just knowing they want to be in the area, and then we just help guide them through what they're actually looking for. If they're looking for a big house, if they're looking for a family house, if they're trying to scale down, if they're looking for a first-floor living, or if they don't mind doing a two-story. But then there are people that have been planning on building a house. They search for about a year. two years online they find their quote-unquote perfect plan online that looks nice but might not be too practical to build especially in the Poconos and then we work with them to see if they have their own lot to see if that house fits on their own lot or if we can help find them a lot to put that house on because if someone comes in with a plan we can do it there are lots that are capable of doing it but having a ranch is expensive in the Poconos just because of the all the hills that if you have a ranch that increases the size of the foundation and if you have a very hilly lot that's going to increase the budget if you're not doing a full foundation you're going to have to put that house on because if someone comes in with a plan we can do it there are lots that are capable of doing it but having a ranch is expensive in the Poconos just because of the all the hills that if you have a ranch that increases the size of the foundation and if you have a very hilly lot that's going to increase the budget if you're not doing a full foundation that if you have a ranch that increases the size of the foundation and if you have a ranch that increases the size of the foundation that is just going to increase the budget for the crawl space either if you're doing a core foundation with the concrete or just more block.
Speaker 2Do you have, on the development side of things, do you have one of your development projects that you could talk a little bit about? I know you had said you're not doing these big 12,000 lot communities or anything, but I still think it's really interesting because the size and scale that you're doing is really common. I mean, there's developers out there that that's what they do. They do 15 lot developments, 10 lot developments, maybe they do executive lots or whatever. Could you talk about one of your guys' projects that you've worked on in the development side?
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely. So we are currently working on a development that we're actually building a spec home in there right now just to get things moving. I believe it's a 13 lot development. It's right in Stroudsburg. So we're located in East Stroudsburg in the Poconos and this one's right in Stroudsburg. And that one is actually very nice. Like I was saying before, we have an upper part and a lower part. So the lower part has the road frontage where we have about five or six lots on that road front and the lower one. And then on the upper side, we had to put in a road. We got pretty fortunate just because I guess there's a couple of different ways where you can do it and design it with the MPDS and the stormwater management is you can have the stormwater. Management on your lot specifically, or you can pick one or two or three, just depending on what size it is, just a couple of lots to install the stormwater management. So you can just have one big basin on one lot rather than a bunch of berms and separate berms on all the lots, which we're actually about to wrap up a 12 lot development soon. We just have, I think, one, maybe two more lots in there. And all those lots have. Their own individual berms that catch stormwater and all those berms are engineered to catch stormwater, not only from our lots, but also from lots that previously did not have stormwater management practices from back in the day. So that just makes it a little bigger. And that's just something that you explain to the customer as well, because if a customer comes in and you don't tell them the big hundred foot berm. Uh, it comes in, uh, that's just something that needs to be discussed. The one we're working on right now, which all the states that Shoalhammer farms, that one is a type where we were able to put all the, well, not all, but a lot of the stormwater management on one lot with, uh, one big base. And so it's a big, a lot, it does have the basin though. And then I think there are two other lots that have, uh, uh, just a smaller berm.
Speaker 2And you may have said this, but what lot sizes are we talking here?
Speaker 1So for that, that is actually in the township where it is a two acre minimum of buildable area. So these lots span from, I think the smallest one is actually 2.4 acres, something like that. And then, uh, it goes all the way up to six to eight acres.
Speaker 2Okay. So good size, good size lots that you're, you're building on or you're developing and then building on.
Speaker 1Yeah. And, uh, actually there. There is a new, so that was the standard practice for that. And this township that we have a piece of, uh, another piece of land in that area that we're thinking of, uh, doing the new zoning for, which it's called conservation design development, something along that line. You still need the two acre buildable area for each lot, uh, at least that much, but you're able to condense it. So, uh, we're thinking about doing that in the future. And that would cut down a lot on utility costs, the run of utilities, the length of driveways, the length of, uh, the road and just maintenance of swales and, uh, cut down on a lot of engineering on the upfront costs of lots as well. And also customers would have to, uh, they would have to, they would have to, you know, they would have to, you know, be, they would have to, you know, have to cut down a lot of engineering on the upfront costs of lots as well. And also customers would have to. Uh, and homeowners would have to pay for HOA, but in that case, you pay a smaller upfront cost for the actual lot. And depending on how it's going to be laid out, we are potentially thinking of putting in a small walking path in the open spaces as well. So that is also, uh, something in the future that we can look at. I think those lots would end up being an acre or so. It's a brand. It's a brand new thing for this township. I know other townships around us have, uh, done it. We just haven't done it ourselves. So it's something we're still looking into, but it's a very exciting opportunity for it.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's nice. And it's, it's interesting to obviously talking to you about these larger lots, you know, when we're talking about some of these bigger developments where you have a lot smaller footprints for lots, you have, you know, we're talking a lot about, you know, affordability and in different parts of the country. And so they, it's all about trying to build with volume or trying to reduce, you know, to get it. Get as much, uh, um, you know, density as possible in some of these spaces. However, obviously where you're at, there's different requirements for larger buildable areas. And I'm sure that's just a way for the communities or the townships to be able to kind of control the type of growth that they want in the community and everything. Do they do, are there, uh, I, I would imagine there's other types of zoning as well for different types of buildings. I mean, the, the density on these single family homes is one thing, but what about. You know, are, I assume there are townhomes there or things of that nature in, in the community where they can put higher density, uh, development in some spots.
Speaker 1So there are areas like that. Uh, a lot of those areas are either held privately and they're not being developed or we actually, uh, are fortunate enough to own piece of land that we're going to be moving on soon and, uh, plan residential development. So a PRD and in that case, I wouldn't call it townhomes. I think it's more of a townhome ask, but they're kind of townhome because you can put them, uh, in a much higher density and you can put a lot more in, which is also good. And, uh, like you just said, it's a lot more affordable. If you're moved to the Poconos, a lot of people do like having a good amount of land, especially if you're moving from New York or New Jersey, just a little more open space, but there are a lot more people want to move here, but just can't necessarily afford it with, uh, all the increased pricing. So we're very excited. Well, looking at the time here,
Speaker 2we should probably shift into the last segment, which is a lightning round. So I've got five questions for you. Uh, first question, what's the hardest trade you've ever worked with since you've worked in a bunch of different roles? What's been the hardest one so far?
Speaker 1The hardest trade is probably, uh, the Mason just, just because you're lugging block and, uh, uh, pushing, uh, concrete wheelbarrows full of concrete all day, which that's probably the hardest. But the one I would really just, I never want to do is the insulation, the insulation. It just gets all over. You just get itchy after. I know the insulator guys say they don't feel it anymore. So it's not that big of a deal. I just did some insulation yesterday and I'm still feeling it. So the hardest is foundation, but the one I don't want to do is, uh, uh, insulation.
Speaker 2All right. Second one. What is the biggest red flag you look for when you see a piece of land? I really don't.
Speaker 1I don't know what it's like, uh, anywhere else, but the biggest red flag for us is if it has wetlands, you can have a great looking flat lot. Uh, it looks perfect. Randall road already developed can have sewer water going right up to it. Uh, and this area, wetlands are very protected. So, uh, if you see any of those flags, then, uh, you have to stay away.
Speaker 2All right. Third one. What's the best lesson your dad has taught you about construction?
Speaker 1The best lesson. My dad has taught me about construction, probably a very basic one that you should really just do in any business. If you're an owner or operator, if you're just an employee, but just know your numbers, especially in this business, because a lot of the payoff is down the line. And I'm sure, you know, in the land development business, you're developing a piece of land and you might not see, uh, the profits or revenue from it for a few years. So you have to know your numbers, you have to do your due diligence. And just make sure you've done your best to try and think of everything.
Speaker 2All right. Fourth one. What's something you think a developer. should know about developing lots for a custom home builder so if they're so from a custom home builder's perspective what are things that you wish developers would keep in mind i would say
Speaker 1if you're developing for a custom home builder that you have to know your target audience if you don't know your target audience and are developing lots right next to a quarry that's probably not the best spot for someone who's going to be designing a custom home those are probably going to be more on the higher side of things than the eight nine hundred most likely going into the million dollar range so i would say if you're developing land for a custom home builder the area of the land is going to be the biggest thing you have to think of uh would you put a million dollar home there if you wouldn't not a good spot
Speaker 2all right last one what's one thing you would tell someone else who's in a family business about what to think about when making a decision as to whether they should stick to the family business that's a good question
Speaker 1i guess going off of it before not just to repeat myself but you can have your own thing in a family business and still if you're looking for the entrepreneur aspect you can definitely scratch your entrepreneur itch if you don't love it then don't go into it i get giddy thinking about building and i think building is uh specifically building homes is the best thing to do in the world because you're giving someone a new home and on the land development side i love being an ager it might sound counterintuitive because you're developing land but just going out there and just seeing the project come to fruition i've been fortunate to see a bunch of our uh land and developments come to fruition and it's uh just the best thing in the world so you have to love it and you just have to know that as long as you don't have bickering siblings you're able to make it your own thing awesome
Speaker 2well sam what's the best way for people listening in to connect with you and learn more about your company i guess the
Speaker 1best thing if you want to get in contact uh i have a linkedin sam brown on linkedin if you want to check us out for the building side of things rgb homes.com is our website and if you just look us up rgb custom homes uh you can see what we're doing and you can see some of the new developments
Speaker 2coming up awesome well guys if you look down in the description for this episode you'll see a link there to the show notes page i will put a link to sam's linkedin there so you can connect with him then i'll also put a link to the rgb custom builders website as well so take a look there uh sam thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time for hopping on here and sharing your story and talking about your experiences in the industry both on the home building side as well as your experiences so far on the land development side i think it's uh really interesting especially talking about some developments that are a little different than the types of developments we have typically talked about on the show so i really appreciate you taking the time
Speaker 1to do this yeah it was a great time ryan and uh big uh supporter of the show i love listening to all the different perspectives everyone has and it's just great hearing what everyone else in the country is doing and i hope you have a great time doing and uh i'm happy to represent the northeast well i appreciate
Speaker 2that i really do all right guys well that is all for this episode if you're not already subscribed please click that button we'd love to have you back for the next one and one other ask if you haven't already left a rating and review on apple would really appreciate that and i think most of you listen in on spotify and spotify doesn't have a review but they do have a rating so i think it literally will take you maybe five seconds to go and click that five-star rating would really appreciate it brings more people to the show otherwise that's all for this one we will talk to you all next week
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