What Is Your Team Afraid to Tell You? | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 3

There are really small changes that people can make. Leaders and also just everyone on teams can make that will make everyone else's lives feel better. It's like the thing that people are side-barring texting like, "Oh my God, can you believe that he just did this and that?" It's like, "Well, no one's telling him." So how is he supposed to fix it? I'm obsessed with the fact that all of the information about how I can grow and improve is in the room and in my blind spot. And the only way that I can figure it out is by asking for it and by receiving it well. If you have spinach in your teeth, you'd want someone to tell you, right? Sure, it's an awkward three seconds, but helpful for the rest of the day. So why is it that when someone on our team is missing deadlines or dominating meetings or doing that one thing that drives everyone crazy, nobody says anything to them. Instead, we side-text our colleagues, we vent to our friends, or we carry a quiet resentment for months, but do we say anything to the person to try and fix the issue? No, because that would be too uncomfortable. Giving someone feedback is one of, if not the hardest things to do. We don't want to upset people, we don't want to start a fight. And even if we do give the feedback, we can't even be sure that it was properly received. Here's the good news. There are simple techniques we can learn to give us more confidence to have those uncomfortable conversations and when we do, for them to go well. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five episode series of a bit of optimism. To go deep on human skills, the things that help us connect, collaborate, and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon to join me. She's a founder of Life Shop, where she teaches emotional intelligence. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, listening, and taking accountability. And of course, this one, giving feedback. Because in this age of AI, sure, the AI can write your performance review. It can draft the talking points. But feedback only works when a human being looks another human being in the eye and says, I care about you enough to tell you this. That part is still very human. So here's what you can expect from this episode. First, I'll share a simple technique that I learned from the USA Force that has completely changed the culture at our office, in how we've given received feedback. It turns criticism from something people are uncomfortable with, into something they more than tolerate, they actually want it. Once you hear this technique, you'll become obsessed with it, just like I have. Next, we explore a deceptively simple way to say a hard thing without blowing up a relationship. And finally, I'll share an amazing story of a leader who I admire, who learned the hard way how feedback works. When it's appropriate to give it end, how to give it in a way that people can actually hear it. She thought her feedback would help people improve their performance. It turns out there's much more to understand about human dynamics than that. So let me start with my first bit of feedback for you. I care about you and I want you to be the best feedback giver and receiver you can be. And if you enjoy this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism. Let's talk about feedback. Feedback is one of those underappreciated things in a company. Everybody knows that you have to give it. Everybody knows at some point you have to receive it. People like getting good feedback, a lot of people don't like getting bad feedback, and a lot of people don't know how to give it, and a lot of people don't know how to receive it. And both are teachable. I had a colleague who I needed to give feedback to. And like most people, I tend to give feedback the way I'd like to receive feedback. I like it plain and simple. Just tell me what you need to tell me. I despise feedback sandwiches. You know, something generic and positive, something really specific and navigative, and something generic and positive. That's supposed to make somebody feel good. Just tell me what you need to tell me and let's just be done with it, right? And so that's how I give feedback. Turns out not everybody likes to receive feedback that we knew. So I worked with somebody and I needed to give her some feedback. And I gave it to her. It did not go well. In fact, it became a fight. Well, yeah. And what I was hoping was a relatively quick and easy feedback session ended up being an hour of de-escalation. It was rough. And then it happened again. You know, months later, I gave some feedback. It did not go well. It became a fight and an hour of de-escalation. And I said to her, we have to figure this out. Because I have to give you feedback. And I can't go through this every time. And I know you don't want to go through this every time. This is awful. And she said, "Feedback's fine, but I don't like the way you give it to me." And I was like, "Well, then how do you want me to give it to you?" And she said, "I just need to be prepared. Just say, can I give you some feedback? It's going to be really hard to give you. I need to be mentally prepared so I can take a deep breath if it's going to be hard." I went, "Okay." She goes, "And sometimes I want to schedule it." I'm like, "And that's it?" She's like, "Yeah, that's it." I'm like, "Fine." So in the future, I was like, "Hey, I need to give you some feedback. It's going to be uncomfortable. Can we do it now?" And she'd be like, "Yeah." Or she'd be like, "Can we do it on Thursday at 3 o'clock?" And be like, "Yeah, I can do Thursday at 3 o'clock." And me simply adjusting to how she wanted the feedback. She could actually take more intense feedback than almost anybody on the team. So long as she was prepared for it. And that's when I realized, that's when I learned that we have to teach people how to give it. And we have to allow people to ask for it the way they wanted. And if we get it right, I mean, it helps everybody. And when we get it wrong, it literally could completely undermine any kind of relationship to productivity or joy somebody has at work. What if you learned about what feedback is, how it works, how it's received, how it's given. Well, maybe I can start by saying how completely feedback obsessed I am. So my first job out of college, I was a management consultant and the firm that I worked at was obsessed with feedback. You had feedback with your supervisor every week. You had feedback with everyone else on your team, every other week. You had feedback with the partner on your case once a month, like a direct time and it wasn't called feedback, it was called PDE Professional Development. And it was a huge part of the culture. And for me, it was normal because my first job out of college, I thought every job had that. And I was talking to one of my best friends from college. Like we had a year or two into being like working in our 20s and she was describing some horrible situation she was having at work. I said, "Well, why don't you bring it up in your feedback session?" She was like, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "The next time you have feedback with your manager, like next week when you bring it up," she said, "I have feedback with my manager once a year for my performance review." And I said, "That's bananas. When are you supposed to bring things up? Like how are you supposed to fix things?" And she said, "We don't. It broke my brain." Like because it had been such an integral part of the culture and it worked so well. I was just found it inconceivable, but not everyone could have access to that all the time. And then I quickly learned, of course, that like most companies don't have strong feedback cultures. And there's so much feedback avoidance. And then you're missing the gold mine of information that is like, "What's working well for you? What's not working well for you?" And then you're kind of repeating the same mistakes over and over again. It broke my brain then. It breaks my brain today. To me, it's like the simplest and most powerful intervention that any company or person can do. One of the worst examples I ever saw of it, which is the avoidant part. There's this company, very large company, 100,000 employees, right? It's a company that you've heard of. And they were so obsessed with having a nice culture and everyone was nice to each other. And everybody was so nice. The way they interpreted nice was they never gave anybody feedback. And any feedback they gave was a problem, you know? And so if somebody was underperforming, instead of sitting down and having the hard conversation with them and trying to help them out, they would just move them from team to team. They would just get bumped and then they would be underperforming and they would get bumped to another team. And people had entire careers. Like they were there for years just going from team to team to team. And if you're the underperformer, first of all, you're not an idiot. So you're like, clearly my career is going nowhere. And you're not getting the feedback, which means you continue to be an underperformer so that it ends up destroying people's self-confidence. So then they don't have the self-confidence to leave and find another job. They don't have the self-confidence to raise the hand and be like, can somebody please tell me what's going on here? And it's just the whole thing ends up being this huge passive-aggressive culture. Everybody's nice and nobody tells you anything. They gave me a good feedback, but they weren't willing to give difficult feedback or uncomfortable feedback. To me, it's like food and your teeth. I am always, I pride myself on being the first person to tell someone when they have food and their teeth. You're like, you don't have anything. I would have told you. Yeah, and you know I would have. I do. To me, feedback is like the higher stakes version of that. If I talk about all of my teeth and I was walking to a client meeting, I would expect my team to say, "Alex, you have a ton of chocolate in your teeth." And so why would I not expect them to tell me, like, "Oh, by the way, the way that you ask questions makes people feel like this." And I know the answer, because people don't know how. And when you don't have the skill, then you just don't do it or you do it badly. And people once they reach a management position, congratulations, you're now in a management position. What training will I get in my middle management? Oh, we'll give you new business cards. Oh, no, no, no, there's no training. But now you have to have at least annual feedback sessions. Oh, and you're going to do 360s and you're going to do monthly meetings. And even if you're like a really well-intentioned young leader and be like, "You know what? I'm going to do PD. I'm going to do personal development every week with my team. But nobody tells you how-- how to do it. Okay, so that's one reason is that we don't know how. We don't know how. What do you think are the other things that stop us from being? We don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. Yeah. We would rather kind of hurt their feelings in this subtle way where they're being confused all the time in the one time. Well, it's like that's passive aggression, right? Yeah. And I think there's also part dynamics, which is, you know, we view feedback as something that is given down the chain of command, but rarely up. And you know, I appreciate companies that do 360's when they're done properly, when they're done well, because everybody has to know. One of the best feedback loops I learned about is actually done by the Army Rangers. There's three levels to Army Ranger School. At the end of each one, there's an evaluation before you can make it to the second one. And then an evaluation before you make it to the third one, then third one, and then you can graduate. At the end of each track, they have three evaluations. One is very empirical. Did you perform the tasks within the time frame required, right? It's data. Yes, no. And this time you failed, you passed, right? Very, very simple. The second one is your teacher, the instructor. Does the instructor think you're good and ready to go to the next level? And that was used to be it. And they discovered that they had this thing called spotlight Rangers, which people who were like, they were fricking machines out in the field. They did everything. They were the fastest. They were the best. They were incredible. The instructors love them. They're like, this kid's going to be a great Ranger one day. I love this kid. But then when the spotlight was turned off, that person was an asshole. But nobody knew. Because there was no mechanism. And so they implemented the third thing, which was peer, peer review. So now you need to pass all three. You need to empirically be good at your job. The instructors need to think you're good. And the other Ranger candidates evaluate you. And the way they did the evaluation was absolutely incredible. How did they do it? I will tell you because it's absolutely incredible. I love seeing you sell it up. It's one page. So you have to fill out this form multiple times, depending if there's 12 people in the class. You fill it out 11 times, right? And the first thing you do is they have the values of the organization written down. And you have to evaluate each Ranger candidate if they're upholding the values based on your assessment. Then you have to rank all the Rangers in terms of best to worst. I'm not sure I like that part of it, but I get it. But then there's my favorite, favorite, favorite question that they ask on every evaluation. Would you go to war with this Ranger? Would you share a foxhole with this Ranger? It's a foxhole. It's a hole in the ground that you just sit and wait all day. Sharing a foxhole with somebody, the business equivalent would be like, would you pitch a new piece of business with this colleague? Would you get stuck in an airport for six hours with this colleague? It's that equivalent. And what I love about that is, oh my God, yes, I'd go to war with this person because they're a machine. They're brilliant. Look at their skills. Incredible. Would I share a foxhole? Heck no. And it was revealing of character. Yeah. And it was just one page. And they retired. They were more honest. Wow. Yeah. And you had to be a good person as well as being good at your job, as well as being good at managing up in order to make it to the next level. And one of the things they told me was, they also evaluate how somebody receives feedback. That actually goes into the evaluation. So they sit down with each Ranger and be like, so we've got your e-vails here. And your colleagues think you're an asshole. And if the Ranger goes, huh, well, that's not good. All right. Okay, I'm going to work on that. Thank you for that. Versus, I know what happened. There was this one incident on third. I know why they said that. Who wrote that? Yeah, who wrote that? I know why they said it. It's not a big deal. I understand where that comes from. We're good. You know? Yeah. So it wasn't just the giving of the feedback. It was the ability to receive the feedback. It's an amazing anecdote because it really does show what happens when you build a culture where those things matter. Yeah. There's a conceit here, which is there's no one way to do feedback. There's no one way to do 360s. There's no such thing as a perfect feedback mechanism. And you want well-rounded feedback. You want to have multiple feedback systems because it fills in the gaps. And the feedback system that you choose should fit the culture as well. The forced rankings definitely is important for Army Rangers. It's probably not important for most companies. In fact, I would actually recommend against it. But feedback fundamentally is difficult. Yeah. Why do you think it's so difficult? It's hard to give. It's hard to hear. Especially if you care about your work, it's never good to hear that you didn't do something well. Yeah. Or it's very hard to tell somebody that there's a behavioral issue. It's hard when it feels so personal. It's hard. And I think it's hard when it feels personal. A lot of feedback is personal. Yeah. And I think to your point, you've brought up a couple times a beautiful distinction between taking-- this is about you as a person. This is a character judgment or a character assassination versus this is a behavior. And I think it's so much easier when we frame things as behaviors, those things we can work on. But I think the problem is when we don't get feedback, it's really easy for us to believe that saying is about someone's character. That's something that can't change. And you receive it as such. Yeah. I think it's something like the brain remembers something negative four times more than I remember, something positive. When I think of feedback, I often think of people telling me things that were really hard to hear that I needed to work on. And that probably is because when someone says, oh, I don't like this presentation that you did, the way that I'm interpreting it is like, oh, my God, I'm not leadership material. Or like, oh, I can't do this. Or oh, I'm unworthy. Or what if they don't want me to be on their team? Or I'm not like, oh, interesting. Okay, let me make these changes to the presentation. You mentioned power dynamics earlier. I think that those are also really intense, especially in this realm. We can be quite fearful about telling someone something when we're in a position of authority. And it's super hard to tell someone to give feedback up, especially when the person is not asking. There are inherent power dynamics to this. And the impact asymmetry of feedback is so intense. Something that a supervisor can say in an off-handed way can be the thing that keeps someone else wide awake at night for three weeks. That's a lot of pressure. The concept of a whisper becomes a shout. And I always remind people who start to climb the corporate ladder, you have to remember that whispers become shouts. You're the same person. It's by virtue of the social hierarchies, in this case formal hierarchies. So as you said, an off-handed comment could make someone's day or destroy their week. A joke that would be fine to make when you're just one of the colleagues, you can no longer make that joke because you're in a position of authority now. And the rules are different. And combine that with the feeling of, oh, my God, this is a verdict on my character. Right. That's why it can feel so intense. So yeah, we're worried about hurting people's feelings because we often can hurt people's feelings. And so let me avoid saying things that are true that could ironically help the person feel better every single day. Let's talk about how to give feedback and how to receive feedback. We've talked about this in one of the other episodes, but I think it's worth repeating because it's brilliant and we've implemented it. It's been hugely powerful in our companies, this concept of spears. Again, something I learned from the Air Force. Here's a scenario, pretty fairly common. Somebody will work two weeks on their PowerPoint in the corporate world and they'll come in and they'll give the big presentation. And at the end, they're like, "Hit it good, right? Pretty good, right?" And I was in a meeting in the Air Force and somebody came in and they'd worked really hard on their presentation for two weeks. And they came in and they gave their presentation and at the end of the presentation, they went "Spheres?" And what they meant was, here's my work. Throw spears at it, make it better. And it was just part of their culture, this idea of "Make my work better, please." And I found it so remarkable because it was A.D. personalized, right? Because usually when we give so many of us in private sector when people criticize our work or compliment our work, we take it personally. Like, they said my work is good, that's because I'm awesome. They said my work is bad, oh my god, they hate me, right? Which of course is not true, at least not most of the time. Sometimes it's true. And so I brought this story back to our company and we started doing it. So somebody would give a presentation or somebody would lay out their work or their plan. And at the end, they would say, "Spheres?" And people would say, "This doesn't work, that doesn't add up." Have you considered this? And the person would be like, "Yep, this is good, this is good." And the simple mechanism would make it so, it was brilliant. And it even became a way to give criticism when it wasn't a formal scenario. So somebody's like, "Here's my idea." And somebody goes, "Can I give you a spear?" And you'd be like, "Yeah, yeah, go ahead." And so we now have this culture where all work, people ask for spears, like always. And the amazing thing is it's been completely depersonalized, that everybody knows that we're in this together, that the spears are being thrown to make the work better or help me see things I can't see. And it helps people not take it personally. It's been one of the best things we've ever implemented in the company. And it happens all the time. So this is one of those mechanisms where feedback isn't necessarily a session. This is literally every time an idea or a piece of work is proposed, that spears are available. It sounds like feedback is seen as the source of information that helps you improve things. Yes. And the best thing about it is people who may be formally struggled with receiving feedback, because they took it personally, they didn't know how to take it. Even people who weren't that good at giving it, like we now have a culture where people crave the spears. They're like, what do you think of my work? It's great. No, no, no, no. Spears, please, give me spears because I want your help to make my work better. They're all turning into little Alex Simons. I feel like I, so I teach emotional intelligence at Yale. And my favorite thing that anyone, my students has written in any evaluation I've ever gotten, was about feedback. So every single week, after every class, I email all of my students and I say, please do a few of you follow this feedback form. What did you like in today's class and what could be improved? And I asked a couple of questions. I said, at the end of the semester, in my course evaluations, one of my students wrote, if there was anything you didn't like about this class, then that's not new, because Alex has her feedback every single week. She gave me a moment to all the changes that we asked for. It's not true. I didn't implement all the changes, but I certainly tried my best. It's not about implementing. It's about being heard. Yeah. It's about taking other people into consideration and figuring out what's in your blind spots. I often think that there are really small changes that people can make leaders and also just everyone on teams can make that will make everyone else's lives feel better. It's like the thing that people are side-barring, texting me like, "Oh my God, can you believe that he just did this?" It's like, "Well, no one's telling him. So how is he supposed to fix it?" I'm obsessed with the fact that all of the things, all of the information about how I can grow and improve is in the room and in my blind spot. To me, feedback is preventative care. It's not waiting for things to already be too far gone by the time you're bringing them. It's eating healthy before you're a diabetic. Exactly. And it feels so good. It's a muscle. I think, like going to the gym for the first time, it does hurt. And then the pain goes away and you start to really enjoy pushing your body a little harder. And I think this is why I love Spirits because it's such a very light lift. It's a very easy thing to implement in any organization. And what it does is it starts to flex the muscle, it starts to build the muscle for people. And to the point where people get impatient hearing the good stuff, they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." Give me the Spirits because that's the good stuff. That's my blind spot. That's the thing that I'm not seeing. That's the thing that makes me better. Nobody learns anything from the good times, we're in things when we screw up. There's a great line that I read in a relationship book that is so applicable at work and when it comes to feedback, which is, it said, "We all live with the fantasy that our partners can read our minds." It's like, "Why didn't you do that?" Well, I didn't know. Well, you should know. Well, I didn't. Why didn't you tell me? I shouldn't have to tell you. I was like, "What? You know?" And it's the same at work, which is, you suck at this. Well, you tell me, "Well, you should know." Like, we all live with the fantasy that our boss can read our mind. We all live with the fantasy that our employees can read our minds. We all live in the fantasy that our colleagues and coworkers can read our minds. And the answer is, "They can't." So Spirits is a fantastic mechanism to give it, but it's also a fantastic mechanism for people to learn how to receive it. Let's talk about giving feedback for a second. So FBI, it's just a, it's just a mnemonic. I actually learned about it in a listening class, believe it or not, and I think feedback heavily overlaps with the skill of listening. And it's just a technique to give feedback in a way that other people can hear it and take accountability, right? That can be about anything. It stands for feelings, behavior, and impact. How do I feel? What is the behavior that you perform that made me feel this way? And if the behavior doesn't change, what will be the impact? You can do it in any order. And we've game it out with just like permutations of all the twos, and it doesn't work. You have to do all three. Again, the order doesn't matter, but you have to do all three. And the consideration for FBI is the feedback you give has to be based on something specific. So general feedback doesn't work. Like, you're always late to meetings, because they'll tell you the one time that they weren't late to the meeting, and you're like, "Yes, that time you weren't." And they're like, "Well, then what's the problem?" Well, every other time, but I wasn't that time and it derails it. And even if it is repetitive behavior, you choose the most egregious or the most recent for the behavior you want to demonstrate. And you should always prepare your FBI statement before you do it. You should never be done on the fly. So it could sound something like, "I'm concerned." Okay? When you came to the meeting late on Thursday, it made the rest of us feel like we were less important to you than anything else you're doing. And my fear is that if you continue to come to meetings late, it will have serious implications from around. And then you shut up and you go into listening mode. If they get defensive or deny it, the reason you've written it down and you know it before you go in is you can't get flustered or take the bait. And if they start getting into so like, "Well, I need to talk to you about the time that you," you're like, "Let's talk about that later. Want to hear your feedback. Right now, what I want to talk about is I'm concerned because on Thursday, when you shut up to the meeting late, and you simply repeat the statement. And what it's designed to do is make somebody take accountability. It's designed to make somebody listen. Right? It works really, really well. On the, some occasions that things get out of hand, you end the feedback session. You say, "This isn't, clearly this is the wrong time. This is, this is no longer constructive. Why don't we try and revisit this again another time?" But the minute they start talking, "Oh, I hate being late to meetings. You immediately become the listener." Even though you're the one giving the feedback, you then become the therapist. You say, "Oh, I hate being late to meetings. Tell me more." It's something that, it's chronic. I didn't know that it was affecting the team so badly, but you have to understand I struggle. Go on, what else? And you just let them go through it, and you let them solve their own problem. They'll be like, "You know, I should probably just like put it in my schedule. That would probably be better, and I can set the alarm in the schedule. Go on, what else?" Well, I think that would really help. Okay, I'm really glad you gave me this feedback. Thank you, you know? And that's what it's designed to do. The best thing about FBI is it works fantastic for positive feedback. It makes positive feedback even more powerful than just saying, "Hey, good job." I am so beyond inspired. On Thursday, that presentation that you gave was so good, and the effort that you put in was so clear, I know that if you continue to do work like that, that this company and your career skyrocket, like rocket ship. Yeah, I feel amazing. You're like, "Speak." Oh, I work. Yeah. Doing all three really makes someone feel good. And it also helps positively reinforce the behaviors that you want to see more of. Like, vague praise, like, "Great job last week. I don't know what I did well." You know, like, if a great job on this, this and that, it's like, "Oh, great. Now I know I can do more of that." Yeah, and the other thing is that it labels behavior. Yeah. It's not you, you're always late when you showed up late. You know, I think you and I both know this. You criticize the behavior not the person. You're a liar. No, no, that's criticizing someone's character. Yeah. You told a lie. That's a behavior. Yeah. Like, you told a lie on Thursday. What I also love about the specificity of on Thursday, like the specific-- Because all mistakes happen on Thursdays. Exactly. The other thing that I love about it is that it strays away from what I call Never Never Land, which is like when you're like, "You're always like this." So you're never like this. It's so hard. You discount them. Yeah. Because you can think of the one or two that's not true and you just discount the rest. Yeah. Never Never Land. I love that. You're always this. Yeah. So I think when we think about feedback, when people hear that word, I think people immediately associate the concept of feedback with criticism. Yeah. And feedback is just that. It's getting information to me and feedback can be positive. Feedback can be negative. Feedback can come in the way of recognition. That is a form of feedback. Yeah. It gives you information about how you're doing and how people think about you, etc., etc., etc. And that is also desperately lacking in companies, which is systems of recognition. Yeah. I think systems of recognition are one of the lowest and most powerful ways to help people grow, like to positively reinforce behaviors as opposed to only negatively rooted behaviors. I heard this thing probably 10 years ago that I still think about all the time, which is this idea that credit is free. You can always give people credit. You can give them recognition. You don't, you know, it doesn't need to be anything financial. You can always add to the abundance of your heart, just say, "Hey, great job on this thing." Or like, "I just want to celebrate so and so because they did an incredible job on this." I think it goes against what a lot of us think, which is like, "Credit is a scarce resource." Like, "Oh, you get credit or I get credit." As opposed to kind of like celebrating your piece of it, also uplifting my piece of it, and recognizing everyone. I think a lot of people know about love languages, like acts of service, gifts, all the quality time, all those. I think it should also be recognition languages. Like, there are different ways. Amen. That you like to be recognized in praise versus how I like to be recognized. Amen. Yeah. 100%. And the irony is, is people generally know. Yeah. Like, people know how they like to receive criticism, and people know how they like to be complemented or celebrated. I think another one is kind of public praise. Public praise. Like a channel on Slack where it's like, "So and so did this thing." You know, celebration emoji. Right. Yeah. And everyone's like, "Yay!" I think acts of service for some. Like. Yeah. You did a great job. Take it out. Mm-hmm. Or awards for some. Like, here's a trophy. I think private recognition also. Yeah. That can go in both ways, right? Like, either your supervisor complimenting you, or also someone you supervise. Yeah. You know, like I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, and he said, "Yeah, you know, I got to raise at work." And also, I got this letter that my supervisor wrote me about how I make him feel on the team. Yeah. And this thing maybe, Craig. Yeah. And so it really depends what actually will move you might be different from what you expect. How do you like to be celebrated? Like, I don't need awards. Of course, I'm always grateful for whatever kind of recognition somebody gives me. But the stuff that like feeds me, you know, that's what we're talking about. The stuff that inspires me. That's what we're talking about. So what feeds do? So, I want to be valuable. And the way I feel valuable is to feel included. And so for me, the best reward is to be invited into contribute. So I mean, can you attend the meeting? Yes. I just want to have a seat at the table, and that is the single, greatest recognition you can give me. And your own team? That's what makes you feel the most. So amongst my own team, I just want to know that I'm inspiring people. Like, I want to know privately. I don't need it publicly. But I want to know that someone is grateful or inspired by the work we're trying to do. to help them be the better versions of themselves, the best versions of themselves. And if they feel like the work they're doing is like that they're a part of something, because that's what I care about, you know, that we're all sort of fighting the good fight together and we have different jobs and different roles. And I really like knowing that people are like by my side and is a member of the army with me. I asked my chief of saffia the day, like I was asking here about what makes her feel good. And she said, "Oh, you, I mean you brought me banana bread last week and it was really sweet." And so I said, "Great! That's such an easy thing for me to do." So everyone said, "Well, whenever I can remember, I get her a little sweet treat and I bring it." And it makes her day and it makes her know that I was thinking about her. And I think we have this kind of idea that it's unromantic to ask somehow to like asking someone how someone wants to be recognized or supported or uplifted or listen to is like somehow bad because you should have already known. I think it's incumbent upon all of us to find out how do you want to be, how do you want to receive negative feedback? How do you want to receive criticism? And how do you want to receive recognition? It's interesting that you think that everyone knows. My instinct is that a lot of people don't know. I think more people know than you realize. For me, I think most of us are not in systems where we have enough reps. And so it might be that the concept of introducing feedback for the first time is like, "Whoa! It's something for the listeners to go try, right?" Yeah. Which is go to your team, colleagues, whatever, and say, you know, if I have to give you a hard feedback, how do you want me to give it to you? Do you want it in private? Do you want to schedule it? Like, do you want it flat out? And I think people will be like, "I think I like this." Or, you know what, I'm not sure. Can we try it all the ways? And that way, even if even just the process of trying to find out, allows for the experimentation that if it blows up, everybody's like, "All right." We tried that. We tried that. Didn't work. Let's speak. Okay. But the problem is, I know this is a huge thing for you, which is bring it up. Yeah. Like just by bringing it up and starting the conversation, it allows at least a process to get to something that will be helpful and productive. Yeah. I actually love the way you did it as you asked the broad question, but then you also gave options. Give some of that. So that, to me, feels really helpful. Like, the big question of how do you like to receive feedback? I wouldn't necessarily know how to answer it. But if you're like, "This or that, this or that, this or that," then I can be like, "Oh, this, that, and this." It's like debriefing the feedback. Like, how do I feel? What felt, you know, what, what makes you feel motivated? What makes you shut down? I feel like we should think about what are tactical ways that we can give feedback. And then let's talk about ways that we can learn to receive it. Let's talk about timing also. Yes. For a lot of companies, and your friend was an example of this, they give feedback once a year. And of course, it's grossly unfair because you're not getting feedback on what you did for the year. You're getting feedback when you did the past month or two if you're really lucky. And the reason they do it once a year is usually because that's when it's tied to sort of promotion and raises and those kind of cycles, as they build in the feedback and tie it directly to. And those are formal evaluations, especially in larger companies that usually goes into a file somewhere. And then there are the regular feedback. There's feedback is spontaneous sometimes, you know, like Spirits. It just happens all the time. Nobody has no set date for Spirits. And so that's a mechanism. But I know you have experienced with sort of the weekly and monthly model as well. Yeah. And it's a different form of feedback in those. Sometimes with a different person. But at the end of the day, the cadence of weekly feedback is very different than an annual review session. Totally. And what we're suggesting is sure, sure, go do your annual review session despite all its flaws. What we're talking about here is like, how do we bring feedback in more regularly so that people feel like they're growing? Like how horrible that you only find out how you're doing once a year. Or if you do something wrong, that's another thing, which you know, catch people doing things right. Yeah. As opposed to catching people doing things wrong. And you'll get more of what the stuff you want. And I know why we catch people doing things wrong. It's because, you know, when somebody's doing their job, they're like, yeah, they're doing their job. I didn't notice because they're doing their job. And what the heck was that? And so I get that. And I'm guilty that we're all guilty of it. They get a note from me when the social media post is off. But like I forget to be like, great social media post. This whole month where nothing happened, everything was great. I'm aware of it. But the whole idea of catching people doing something right gives an unbalanced positive impact to just catching people when they do things wrong. Yeah. That reminds me of like the number one thing that I feel strongly about. About feedback, which is to have feedback, to do it regularly, to take it seriously, to make it a habit. For me, I can't imagine working with someone directly and not having feedback, at least every other week. That's gonna be personally. But I'm also an extreme. I really, really, really care about learning and growing as a person. And I really care about making sure that everyone on my team knows that I deeply am invested in their learning and growing. So how do you do it? If you do it weekly or by weekly, what is the format? It's a meeting. I do it typically on Fridays every other week. Every Friday, I want to push it. Because it's not like directly tied to any output. So always there's going to be something that I feel that I want to prioritize over it. But I always prioritize it. Even though it's not urgent, it's important. Got it. So because you have to do work, you're like, oh, I can always cancel the feedback session. Totally. That is the thing that enables, like, races of the wheels of doing all the work. I'm going to use your terminology. It's preventative medicine. It's really easy to start eating healthy tomorrow and cancel the workout today because I have work to do. But if you keep canceling the workout because of work, you die of a hard attack. Yeah, exactly. So first of all, I do it. That's the most important thing I prioritize it and I do it regularly. That's a big one. Yeah. The next thing is that I think about it in advance. So I have a series of questions that I answer. So let's take it with my chief of staff. She has a series of questions and I have a series of questions. I can give you an example. Her for you and you for her. Yeah. It's often the same ones. It'll probably take me 20 to 30 minutes to prepare, which is a lot of time. That's a lot of time, yeah. And we will answer something like, what is your summary of the last two weeks? What did I think I did well? What did I think I can improve on? What did I think she did well? What I think she can improve on? And then we go through. First we start with one of us and then we go through the other one. And it's incredible. We've come up with systems and what are ways that we can improve all the things that we said we want to improve on? And then at the end, I always ask, what do you afraid to tell me? What was the last thing she was afraid to tell you? It's something in your teeth. I think she said she's afraid to tell me how much she's working because she's afraid to let me down. And then I could communicate to her how much she's not letting me down and how I'm grateful for her every single day, which is true. Do you know what I like about your system there? We used to do 360s. And the format we used, we sort of came up with it ourselves. Your team was not the people who were like, this is the marketing team. The group that came into the room were the people you work with regularly. So, you know, sales may work with somebody and marketing may work with somebody in whatever tech. So whoever you have a regular contact with, that's the group that came into the room. And everybody had to fill out a form in advance that said, what are the five specific examples of weaknesses or areas of improvement? Five specific examples of strengths or areas that I have improved. And everybody filled out their own form. The forms were distributed and collated. And then when you came in, we'd go around the room and we would take turns and you would read your form to everybody. So first you would read where my weaknesses or areas of improvement are required. And then anybody else has allowed to add to your list. And the only thing you were allowed to say was thank you. And I used to give this little speech. We would say, we are here to help each other improve, to help each other grow. The people who are going to give you some of this feedback would rather not give it to you. It is difficult, it is uncomfortable, and it is much easier for them not to. But they're going to because they care about your growth and they want you to see your blind spots. So when they give it to you, that's why you say thank you. If you disagree with it or think they're wrong, then just disagree with it and think they're wrong in your head. Don't worry about it. And the way you did thank yous had to be genuine. It couldn't be like thank you. You're like, "Ahh, ahhh, ahhh, ahhh, ahhh, ahhh, ahhh." You know? Save her real. So it was amazing because anybody could add to the list and all you were allowed to do was say thank you. I really love that. It sounds intense. It was super intense. So the negative ones were intense. But then we always ended on the positive ones. Because sure you found out your blind spots in the first five. But the second ones you found out you were having a positive impact in people's lives that you didn't even realize. And they were very often tears. Okay. Safe space. And the first one was awful for everyone. And what I mean awful mean it was hard. But then the second time we did it, it was like, "I like that." And the third time we're like, "Alright, bring it on." And again, like the muscle, we got good at them. You could only be done in person. That's the caveat. Like you can't do it so you're just the other person. You got it because it's intense and it's done with love. And it's done with love. But the point is that you're by weeklies. It's basically the same thing instead of five. It's one. Which I love. I love. But it's the same format. We also did it publicly. We do many things too. It's not public. Yeah. It's true. It is public. I love. It's intense. But part of what we were doing is creating a very, very safe space. Like I said, there were very often tears of joy or anger or sadness or any of those things. You had to learn to filter out stuff that you knew was just somebody's got to be in their bonnet, whatever. Let them say their thing. You know, you can choose to take and ignore what if you want. I would not recommend any company doing this unless you have at least a good foundation of psychological safety. Yeah. If you're just introducing it and you haven't worked on the psychological safety, it will be a disaster. What I love about that is that it's collective. It's building the culture of feedback. Which I think is enforcing the culture and not building the culture. Yeah, you're right. And so I think if you are in a company where you can do that amazing. Yeah. And what I personally love about taking my one-on-one feedback really seriously is that I can do that anywhere I work. Yeah. Every job I've had since my first job in management consulting, I have said when someone offers me the job or when I start when I hire someone else, I want you to know that feedback is an inherent part of working with me. Yeah. That I'll be doing feedback with everyone I work with directly. I really like the adaption of the biweekly. What else? The one that I really love, this is also when I first start working with someone, is I have a collaboration meeting with them. meeting with them. This is something that someone did to me, someone who I was working on a project with maybe five years ago. She said, "Do you want to sit down?" I have all these questions before we start working together, I just want to like, it's kind of like a stylistic check, it's an alignment check and figuring out what are our strengths. And so she sent me all these questions. The questions were things like, what are three things that support you in a working relationship? What are activities that drain you? What is your style of giving and receiving feedback? What does like a typical day look like in your working life? It was both really high level and also got quite granular. And I answered all these questions, we had this meeting. - Does this your onboarding? - This was part of our decision to work together. It's like, okay, we wanted to work on a project together. I mean, now I do it as onboarding when I hire people. - That's amazing. - Yeah, it's like part of the interview process. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, so I will interview someone and if I want them to do the job, then I'll have a collaboration meeting. And so be like, okay, what do you love to do? What do I love to do? Our skill sets complimentary are values aligned. And it's truly incredible because it gives an opportunity to surface things that will one day become problems. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So for example, when I first started my company, I met someone and we decided we wanted to be business partners. But he was in his 40s, he had already sold two companies. He'd like, loved what I was doing. And he wanted to do it together, but he was not gonna put in the work. And so we had this meeting. I said, "What are you afraid to tell me?" And he said, "I'm afraid to tell you that I really don't want to work that hard." (laughing) And I thought about it and I was like, "That is totally fair. Yeah, you're not gonna work that hard." Like if I'm picking you as a business partner, you're not gonna be in the day today with me. And then I could think about it. Decided if that was for me, turned out I was down. It worked well for us because-- - Because it came up, because it was known. It was known quantity. - Exactly. Whereas if I hadn't known that every single day, I would have been like, "Why aren't you doing this? Like, why am I doing this all night?" - And he either gets defensive or shames. - Yeah. So that's another thing that I had to do is the preventative work of feedback. Even before I start working, it's like naming. What are all the things that are gonna get in our way? - One of the things I'm learning from you is how much a feedback is preparation. Like we've talked about finding out how people like to receive negative feedback, finding out how people like to receive positive feedback and recognition, onboarding people with, you know, to eliminate surprising. So much of it is so much of what we're talking about is preparation and building the muscle. - Okay, so we've talked about specific feedback. We've talked about doing it, prioritizing it, thinking about it in advance. How do you think about, I'm curious, when is the right time to give it? - I don't know what it is. It's another military story. But all of these things I swear are applicable in any organization big and small. - Well, they're really good. They're people organizations. - They're people organizations, right? So there's this woman I know in the Air Force, who three things happened to her simultaneously. Any one of them is difficult and all three happened at the same time. She got promoted to senior leadership. She got her first command and she was deployed for 365 days to the Middle East. Any one of those is hard and all three happened at the same time. And the command she was given, she was in charge of blood air base for base operations. So housing, mess hall, food, laundry, morale events on the on base, like she was in charge of all of that. And the previous two or three commanders that have all been fired, but for doing a bad job, right? She's a hardcore, you know, high performer. I'm gonna blow the doors off. I'm gonna be the one that succeeds. Mimi me, I'm gonna get it done. Watch me, I'm a star, right? And she shows up and it's an unmitigated disaster. Nobody's taking her seriously. She's in charge of soldiers and airmen who are more seasoned than she is, bigger than she is, older than she is. They're ignoring her, even though she's the commanding officer. And she admitted that for six months, she cried herself to sleep every single night. And it was going so badly. She just regretted being there. Didn't wanna be in the air force. All she wanted to do was go home. And after about six months, she resigned herself to the fact that she had failed. And she accepted the failure. And she changed her strategy. She said, "Well, I failed." So I'm not gonna even bother trying to do all the things I said I was gonna do. Instead, what I'm gonna do is everybody here is away from their families. Everybody here is under a lot of stress. I'm just gonna work really, really hard to help everybody just enjoy their time while they're here. And something happened. All the sudden things started to go really, really well. The way she adjusted doing things, just because of she had this new strategy of helping people rather than being successful. After the next six months, she ended up being a huge success, completely turned things around and everybody missed her when she left. And one of the things she learned in this change of strategy was when to give feedback. So when we're obsessed with making the machine be the higher performing machine, we give feedback at the time things happen. So for example, you've organized a big corporate event, right? And they put the coffee table far away from the cups and the cookies. Even if you do it nicely, like, hey, move the coffee over there, right? Catching things and fixing them in the middle of the situation. And that's what she used to do. She'd be like, move this to there. Don't forget that. Especially even in the middle of fun things, she'd be correcting and she thinks because she's trying to make it a higher performing work better. And what it did is it ruined it for people. They're in it, it's going, people are stressed, they're taking their job seriously, and she just kept ruining it when she changed from change for strategy to like, I just want people to like do well, have a good time, you know. She wouldn't give the feedback in the middle unless it was like serious, serious, serious, but that was rare, right? She wouldn't give the feedback in the middle. She would do it at the end. She would be like, all right, event was great. It's over. Let's just go through what we can do better next time. Hey, the cups and the coffee were really far apart from each other. I noticed that was really annoying for people. Next one, make sure the cups are next to the coffee. People like, got it, got it, got it. And this profound little change of when we give feedback, and I started adopting it, make notes, you know. Make little notes, keep them with you. Instead of giving feedback in the middle of the presentation, wait till the end. Instead of giving feedback in the middle of the event, wait till the end. Because you're ruining, you're ruining somebody's flow, you're ruining their fun, you're ruining the fact that they take their job seriously and they're trying to do hard work. There's a time in a place, and that time in place is not the time you have the thought of the feedback. I totally agree, and I would even underscore one of the things that you did automatically. Even as you were giving the example, okay, the cups over here, the tables over there, next time let's do it like this. Like it wasn't like, this was bad. It's growth oriented. - You want the firmative language for the growth orientation, 100% agree. - Yes, but still. - And it's not fixated on what already happened for the thing that we can't change. It's like, oh, we learned this thing. Next time let's do it like this. - Yes. - And you still get the result that you want. - And she was wildly successful as a result. I actually learned the story when she got back from deployment, and I sat down with her probably a week or two right after she got back. So all the emotions were super raw. - Yeah. - And she tells me the whole story about crying herself to sleep and everything. And she gets to the end of the story, I said, so what did you learn? And she starts crying. And she says, I've never had such a profound feeling of having a positive impact in people's lives like I did from that experience. And it wasn't about her success, and it wasn't about her metrics, and it wasn't about a leader's decision to take care of their people, to learn how to give feedback in a more constructive and positive way, and the result was performance through the roof. I think you and I've been sort of dancing around the point here, which is if you learn how to give feedback, if you learn how to receive feedback, if you learn how to crave criticism and negative feedback, if you learn how to ask for feedback, if you learn how you like to receive recognition, if you learn how you like to receive criticism, and you tell somebody what they don't know so that you can get it in the way that you need to hear it. The result is you love work, you feel psychologically safe, your performance is through the roof, the company's performance is through the roof, and everybody, quote unquote, wins. If you choose to ignore all of these things because we're a performance organization, and blah, blah, blah, blah, right, you will accidentally break the machine and burn your people out. I love that. It's a beautiful story, and I totally agree. Talking about feedback is like talking about exercise or talking about eating well, which is the results don't happen immediately. And it is a muscle that you have to build, and it is a practice that you have to work on, and it is something that you need to ask other people to watch your form because sometimes you're not good at it. Am I bending my back? No, keep your back straight. Okay, thanks, because you can't see yourself. That's what feedback is. I cannot see myself. Tell me where it's in my blind spots. Tell me what's in my blind spots. Tell me what I can't see in the mirror, you know? The result is everything is healthier when organizations and leaders and people and teams get good at feedback. And that's the most empowering part of what you just said is, like it's a muscle you can build, and even though it'll be hard at first, so, so quickly, you will be able to feel the positive impacts, and you won't need to be trusting that they'll arise. It's a beautiful self-affilling prophecy. It's a road to a cycle, as opposed to being an ambitious one. I'm curious what you've learned in your practice about how we can learn to receive criticism better, feedback better, like how do we build that muscle to receive, learn how to receive, or learn how we receive. Yeah, because not just giving feedback is also receiving. Yeah, it's both. We kind of talked about it earlier, but for me, the most important thing is to ask for it. I ask for it regularly. I ask for it big and small. I always say, what are big things, but are really hard to say, and then also what are small things that I can improve. I ask as many people as possible, I'm obsessed with asking you for feedback, and I ask for it, like I mean it. There's a way to ask for it where you're kind of just giving it lip service, and everyone can feel that, and they won't actually give it to you. So I ask for it. When I receive it, I get curious about it. It's not just like hearing the first thing that someone says, I'll ask questions until I genuinely understand. You receive the feedback and listen to understand. Yeah, I receive the feedback, I listen to understand. I get excited. about it, like what you're talking about of like craving it is, oh my, this is the, this is the information that I need in order to get better in order to fix this thing in order to improve. It's like an adorf in rush when you start exercising like, yeah, you start really wanting it. Yeah. Yeah. That's another one. And also I try to model for other people how to receive it. So I always express my gratitude first thing. Even if I disagree with it or even if I know it's valid, but I can't implement it because I have a picture that sometimes the person keeping the feedback doesn't, they can't see the full picture. So maybe they're telling me something, it's true and it's not changeable. I'm still like, thank you so much. I'll think about it. When people give me a feedback, I first tell them that they're wrong. I mean, sometimes you're joking. Unless it's positive, then I tell them that they're right. Of course. But it's real though, you know, like I got feedback last week. I just ran a month long program and as I am one to do, I asked for feedback after every single class. And at the end, someone who didn't follow her feedback from the whole time gave me a piece of feedback at the end that was about the structure of the program. And I caught a little defensive or I got frustrated. It's like, okay, well, now it's too late. I said, thank you so much. I sat with it. I tried to hear what actually the information was, even though it was too late and I was still frustrated. It's okay to be frustrated. And then I tried to figure out what can I do to repair. What is something that I can tangibly do? Because it's one thing to say, sometimes there's nothing you can do. And then other times it's like, okay, well, this person is filling this way. What are other ways that I can make it up to them and not being shy about trying to get creative? And I think that's another one. So especially as leaders, modeling how we want feedback to be received is also helpful for other people who are giving feedback to. If we can show that we're curious and open and grateful and excited to receive it, then that also creates a psychological safety for when we give it. And so it becomes this beautiful cycle between people. For each of the cycle. That's true. One of the things that I've tried to, and we can't avoid talking about the generational differences. And again, it's not a rule. Like, I know people put in the comments, I know plenty of young people who love negative feedback. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that. Younger people say they want feedback, but what they want is positive feedback. And negative feedback is more difficult for them. And the younger generations at work, there is a trend that they really try and avoid anything uncomfortable. And to the point where, and I've seen this happen, where they confuse discomfort for toxicity. Nope, just uncomfortable. Or they confuse an uncomfortable situation for somebody who's a terrible boss. I went for a walk with somebody and she literally started the conversation with me like, my boss is a horrible person. And I was like, oh my god, does she kick her dog when she comes home? And she's like, no, I'm like, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's not a good leader. Okay? There are very different things that goes back to character versus skills, right? Learning to be uncomfortable. And learning to sit in discomfort is hugely valuable. And I don't mean you put up with everything. That's not what I'm talking about, right? And what I'm talking about is learning to crave, crave is the word I would use. Learning to crave negative feedback, right? And there's a very simple way to get into that habit, which is no matter what, you know, if somebody pays you the compliment because everybody loves the compliment, no matter what you do, even if somebody offers you nothing, you do a presentation, every like, thanks to the presentation, you walk out of the meeting, get in the habit of saying, hey, what can I do better? Not tell me what was good and what was bad. What can I do better? You're asking for it. It eliminates the fear that discomfort opens the door to it. And what starts to happen is you start craving the feedback because it's making you better. It's making you more aware. And it's really funny how even somebody who is uncomfortable getting negative feedback or somebody who really likes positive feedback, you actually, you start craving the criticism because you're getting better and stronger. It's wonderful. Yeah. It's wonderful. We've talked about so many different things. I don't even know how to begin to summarize it. That's why we have some big picture things. We talked about feedback as preventative care about the kind of like food in your teeth phenomenon. You had a few amazing examples about culture of feedback, of like spears as a culture and recognition, being able to recognize each other, remember that credit is free and figure out how to recognize people in the way that they act that actually lands and impacts them. Those are cultural ones. But I think also we talked about a lot of ones that even if you're not in a culture that values feedback, you can also implement it in your working relationships. For me, the most important thing, if people are going to leave with one thing, it's to do it, to care about it, to prioritize it, to put thought into it and literally to do it. Sem�p regularly, ideally every two weeks. Do it once you start working with someone and I also do it before. But then we also, okay, with giving, we had FBI. Which is a technique for how to have a difficult conversation, how to give feedback in a way that is more likely to be received. So it's feeling behavior impact. Yeah. Yeah. Any order, but you have to have all three. Yeah. Both checking in with somebody when they want to receive it. Do you want to do it now? You want to schedule it. And if it's an event, unless it's mission critical, save it for the end, for the debrief. Yeah. And we also had asking people how they want to receive feedback and giving them options. And then for receiving feedback, ask for it. Ask for it. Peractively ask for it. Ask like you mean it. And when you get it, get curious about it. Be open to it. Be grateful. Be excited that you're getting it. Model how you want feedback to be received. Because remember, we always talk so much about the giver creating the environment. But if the receiver keeps getting defensive and going off the handle, then the giver would just be like, you know what? I can't deal with this stuff. So how you receive it also will set the conditions for getting more feedback. Mm-hmm. Because if you're a resistant defensive angry, you know, all those things. They're going to withhold. They're just not going to bother because nobody wants to be attacked. And I think also remembering with all of these things, as we've said many times, and I think this is core to what both of us believe is that we can build the muscle. And even if we're not in a culture of feedback, we can develop little one-on-one cultures, where we are getting the information that we need and sharing it honestly so we can all improve together. The way I would summarize this conversation is that feedback is kind even if it's not nice. If you're trying to be nice and like, avoid the feedback or only give positive, you're not being kind to the person. Because you're not allowing the opportunity to grow. Feedback when given appropriately with some of the techniques we're talking about is always kind. It's a gift. It's a feedback is a gift and even if it doesn't feel nice, it is always kind. Yeah. And I think remembering that feedback is a gift that we can give people and one that we also have to learn to receive. Yeah. So the first thing you and I are going to do after we call cut is we're going to give each other feedback. And I think what people aren't seeing because it's not on camera is that as we've been developing this podcast, we have been giving each other feedback. We've been giving each other notes. I love that term from Hollywood, by the way. Do you have any notes? Because like, do you have any negative feedback from me? It's like notes is just a nice word. But now I can ask you for a spirit. I have notes. I've got notes. We and I have been giving each other feedback to help each other do well and do better. And some of it is personal. Like you have to do this better. And some of it is like how what kind of system do we want to make to make this better for both of us? How do we play to our strengths? And it's been really fun for us to develop this podcast with lots and lots of feedback. And from our team, there's a crew behind the cameras here that are giving us feedback too, which has been really, really helpful. And it's really a team effort. It's fun to model it while we're actually talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Good times. Thank you. Until the next one. Until the next one. Thank you. A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff, visit SimonCeneck.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.