‘What Is the Goal?'

Home to the Rachel Maddo Show, Morning Joe, The Briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust. MSNow is your source for news, opinion, and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you. MSNow. Same mission. New name. Learn more at ms.now. Welcome back to a two-hour edition of The Weeknight. Coming up, Donald Trump forgets America first as he targets not just Venezuela, but also sets his sights on Columbia, Cuba, Greenland, and more. For Mercier, Director John Brennan is here. Then, as questions grow over the legality of the Venezuelan operation, the Trump administration pushes Senator Mark Kelly over that video, where he has service members to ignore illegal orders. We'll discuss the double standard with his colleague, Senator Andy Kim. And later, Jacob Soberoff is with us after sitting down for a revealing interview with California Governor Gavin Newsom, and he doesn't hold back on Donald Trump and JD Vance. But we begin with breaking news. That briefing, top officials from the Trump administration, gave to select members of Congress. It is just wrapped. We'll bring you more information on that briefing as we get it. House Speaker Mike Johnson just announced all members of Congress will get briefed on Wednesday, almost five days after the Venezuelan operation. And now it's just not Venezuela, less than 48 hours after the attack in Caracas. The self-proclaimed peace president says he has many other nations he's setting his sights on. What we want to do is fix up the oil, fix up the country, bring the country back and then have elections. Scuba now has no income. They've got all of their income from Venezuela. From the Venezuelan oil. Cuba literally is ready to fall. Colombia is very sick. Run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long. Let me tell you. There will be an operation by the U.S. and the -- >> It sounds good to me, I'm worried about Greenland in about two months. Talk about Greenland in 20 days. >> Yeah. >> By the way, you have to do something with Mexico. Mexico, I see it here, act together. >> You know, the Honduran leader that was actually convicted for selling cocaine to the United States trafficking, drug trafficking. The president just pardoned him and released him, but that's another story I guess. In case you're keeping track, and if you're not, we are, that's Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba, Mexico. And yes, even Greenland, Denmark's prime minister is now saying that Trump, quote, should be taken seriously when he says he wants to take the semi-autonomous, Danish territory. It's actually hard to tell what's crazier, that the U.S. president after capturing the president of Venezuela is already talking about targeting other nations, that the other nations actually have to take him seriously. Maybe we all should. Joining us now to discuss this former CIA director, John Brennan, he's an MSNOW senior national security and intelligent analyst, and Michael Feinberg is here. He's an MSNOW national security analyst, and a former FBI assistant special agent in charge. >> It's good to see you both, director Brennan, pull back the curtain for us. What is likely the conversation that is happening in every intelligence agency across the globe right now? >> Well, Alicia, I think everybody is trying to figure out exactly when Donald Trump is going to move next. It's not a question of if, but when and against whom. It's quite clear that Donald Trump has an imperialist agenda that he is trying to now pursue. The first hit was of Venezuela, but as he has noted in that video of him talking on Air Force One, it was absolutely disgraceful, and Lindsey Graham, you know, so psychophantic to Trump, just was laughing at the notion that we're going to move against Greenland and Mexico and Colombia. I mean, it's quite clear that Donald Trump feels quite frankly drunk with power. It's unfortunate that we have, you know, someone who had, I think, a very well-deserved reputation as being an unscrupulous businessman and real estate developer now has the tremendous capabilities of the United States military, intelligence, diplomatic service, and others to pursue these aims and his agenda. And so I do think intelligence agencies and policy makers around the globe are really trying to figure out how to counter him. And I must say, I think China also is looking how they can now capitalize on what's going on here to try to give some countries an alternative to U.S. support. So again, I think we are in very dangerous times and I don't know what Donald Trump is going to do next, but clearly when he has people like Marco Rubio and Pete Hegsith and others around him who are not giving him any notes or words of caution, they're continuing to move in this direction. And again, I think something more is going to happen in the coming weeks and months. Michael, further to Director Brennan's point, there were all chuckles on the plane about invading sovereign nations taking land that does not belong to them. And in many respects, you kind of wonder where we got off the rails here. How do we allow ourselves to slide so quickly to become like nations we used to go after and try to course correct? When you look at where the American people are on the heels of all of this, the Washington Post has pulling out this shows that only 40% of the American people approve of this action, 40% disapprove of 18% are unsure. We need to help the 18% understand exactly what this is right now. Who should decide future leadership of Venezuela? Only 6% of the American people says the U.S. should, 94% says Venezuela. So we do have this situation in which the president is acting in a way that does not as we've seen with the Epstein files, which suddenly is knocked off the screen, right? But still is a very important issue out there for a lot of Americans. As we've seen in other situations where the American people are in one spot and the administration is in another, help us understand how this translates. Does that feed this sense of power that the director referred to this sort of consumption of power that the president seems to have going on? Because the American people, quite frankly, are in a relevant proposition in all of this? Well, I think what you have in this administration is a group of individuals, as Director Brennan said, drunk with power, who are also fundamentally uncurious about anything in the world that does not affect them directly. As a result, they have no knowledge of history whatsoever. They have no real knowledge of geopolitics. And as a result, they have no way of sort of intuitively forecasting second and third-order consequences of ideas that may seem good or at least neutral at the time, but can have really serious ramifications down the line. This reminds me not to get too cerebral, but what we're looking at are the worst aspects of 19th century power politics without any of the stability. And that led to the global conflagration in 1914, which involved nearly every country and region of the world. And we had a repeat of it in 1936 or '39, depending on which country you're looking at. And as a result of those two experiences, we went to great lengths to build a stable post-war order that could survive even hegemonic rivalries like that between the United States and Soviet Union. But I seriously doubt President Trump knows any of this. I doubt Lindsey Graham knows any of this. I'm quite sure Howard Lutnik, who is also laughing, does not know any of this. And as a result, they're going about dismantling that very post-war order which allowed for American prosperity for nearly a century. You know, I wonder what the president and his allies know to be true and don't know to be true some days. I think only they can tell us and it's not lost on me that they have not adequately even attempted to explain to the American people why they did what they did and the explanations that they have given, keep changing. But one of those explanations is that this is about the drugs director Brennan. That this is about, I'm using quotes for people at home, narco terrorists and the drugs that are flooding into America and killing Americans. And there is a crisis in this country, there's a fentanyl crisis to be clear. And it's my understanding, it's fentanyl comes from China, tuned through Mexico and it comes into the country via the US Mexican border by way of being carried oftentimes by Americans. But the cocaine is what they keep talking about and it's blown my mind because Venezuela is not, it's not a major cocaine producer and don't take my word for a director Brennan. This is what New York Times said. Experts have said that Venezuela is not a major drug producer and have described it as a minor cocaine transit country with most of the cocaine flowing through Venezuela heading to Europe, not the United States. The majority of the cocaine bound for the United States is believed to be moved not through the Caribbean, but through the Pacific. That's according to data from Columbia, the United States and the United Nations, Venezuela does not have a specific coast. I read all that and say I'll have to say director Brennan. What people believe to be true colors what they believe is acceptable. If the American, if the government can get the American people to accept that this is in fact about drugs and that in order to legitimize their actions, then the American people will believe that not just this action, but potentially the other actions the president is threatening to take are they too acceptable. I think what is true and what is a lie is really important here. >> Yeah, I think we've been used to the lies from the administration for quite some time. The law enforcement action against Maduro, that was enabled by the US military and US intelligence, was in mere pretext as were the strikes against the various boats coming out of Venezuela. Pretext for the agenda, again, that the Trump administration has to go after the wealth of Venezuela. I mean, if Venezuela didn't have oil, we wouldn't be engaged in this. When people have been saying he's after regime change, I don't think it's regime change what it looks like is trying to decapitate the leadership of Venezuela in order to work with the authoritarian leadership that is still in place there, because he is just dismissed as was said earlier, Machado and others, who are really a part of the opposition. And so again, I think what he's trying to do in terms of his misrepresentation of the facts, misrepresentation of the reasons and the motivations, again, is to give the American people a sense that he's doing this on behalf of them in order to protect the US people. But he's really, this is crony capitalism. He's looking out to try to support the oil companies here in the United States and to bring that wealth and Venezuela back here to the United States. So again, this is all part, I think, of his effort to try to do what he can and irrespective of the law, international law, domestic law, irrespective of Congress, and I agree completely in terms of that there are ignorance of history, ignorance of the implications of these things, but he they're uncaring. I think that's even more important, they're uncaring about what is the right thing to do. They're going to pursue this in a manner that really just benefits them and their friends. >> Let's talk then, Michael Farnberg about what it actually looks like, and who's in charge of what is happening in Venezuela. This is new tonight from NBC News, Trump is saying the US isn't at war with Venezuela. Trump identified a group of US officials including Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, Defense Secretary Pete Hankshead, Deputy White House Chief of Staff, Steven Miller, and Vice President J.D. Vance, who will help oversee America's involvement in Venezuela. It's a group of all, they have all expertise, different expertise, he said, but he had a one-word answer for who is ultimately in charge, me. A lot of cooks in that kitchen, and that lead chef has a big job running the United States of America, so tell me how it's all going to work. >> Yeah, we're not exactly dealing with the wise men of the Cold War, or the best and the brightest of the Kennedy administration here. We're dealing with a number of people who are essentially cosplaying their roles as senior government officials, and the way they got their positions and what they will do to hold on to them is to say and do whatever they need to to play Cade Donald Trump. So we are essentially subject, and now another country is subject, to his whims on any given day. I genuinely don't know why we took this action, I don't think it's about drugs. It might be about while, it might be about Steven Miller's never-ending war against anybody with South or Central American heritage. It might just be about flexing muscles because we can. We're fundamentally dealing with an unserious immature commander in chief, which means we are seeing unserious policy decisions, which are incredibly hard to actually analyze and discern what their purpose is. >> You know, Dr. Bennett, when this action began over the weekend, I had a little flashback, because here Donald Trump is taking action against more countries, right? He's being the bully, he's pushing his way through. And it reminded me of that moment in May of 2017, when he was with NATO's new headquarters in Brussels, and he pushed his way past the leader of Montenegro, just did the little flex with the jacket, just I'm the boss man, I'm here, and everyone's kind of looked at him with that smile that we all know well when people act like that in our presence. What it got me thinking, and I love your thoughts, at what point do our NATO allies begin to treat Trump the way they've treated folks in the Eastern block in the old Russia days and folks in the Middle East, who have gone rogue, who have set themselves up to be anti-democratic? When do our European allies begin to say, you know what, we've gone far enough with all of this. No more busting past us on the international stage, we need to put you in check in place. Well, I think Donald Trump has instilling fear in a lot of those European leaders, who have had to deal over the course of history with dictators and tyrants and individuals who just used their weight, literally and figuratively, to get their ways. The challenge is that the United States, again, is an unrivaled military superpower. The Europeans do not really have the wherewithal to be able to sort of stand up to Donald Trump, and not fear that he's going to actually, you know, take it out on them. The fact that he's threatening Denmark over Greenland, Denmark, the Danes, who gave their blood in Afghanistan and other places, working with us over the course of so many years. There's no trust or respect or confidence right now that I think the European NATO partners have in the Trump administration. That's why I think, you know, President Zelensky of Ukraine really has to be very wary of any type of security guarantees that Donald Trump may give because his word is worth nothing. It's quite clear that he is going to continue to deceive, to lie, and to just do whatever it is that's in his interests, again, irrespective of what is right or wrong. It is Donald Trump's interests and the U.S. and arrogance that Donald Trump sort of, you know, demonstrates. And unfortunately, there are too many Americans, including Republicans in the Congress that have that same attitude. That's why we're really in such a dangerous position right now in terms of what he might do. As Michael said, you know, any given day what his whim might be in terms of trying to further exert his power. A lot, a lot there, folks, Director John Brennan in Michael Feinberg. Thank you both for sharing your time. After a quick break, Senator Andy Kim joins us as the Trump administration might have a double standard when it comes to service members and illegal orders. And later MSNOW's Jacob Soberov joins us on the heels of this his exclusive conversation with California Governor Gavin Newsom as they discuss dangerous disinformation coming from the Trump administration. You're watching The Weeknight. As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with the MSNOW newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people. The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this. Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at MS.now/project47. Today, Pete Heggseth announced that the Pentagon is starting administrative proceedings against Senator Mark Kelly that could eventually downgrade his military rank slash his retirement pay. It's punishment for recording that video with other Democratic lawmakers, urging military members to refuse illegal orders. Now, that is noteworthy given that the action comes just days after the U.S. carried out a legally dubious raid in Venezuela's capital to capture President Maduro and his wife. Joining us now, Democratic Senator Andy Kim, the great state of New Jersey. >> Welcome. >> Well. >> Yeah. >> Senator, what do you think about all this? Let's start with Heggseth and Senator Kelly. >> Yeah, well look, I think, I was reading the letter that they sent to my colleague, Senator Kelly. The fact that they were citing lines that he had said and finding concern. One of the lines was that Mark Kelly said that he would always defend the Constitution. The fact that they even put that in the letter and highlighted that as something that was offensive to them, I'm concerned to them, I mean, I think it shows that what they demand here is not just loyalty to Donald Trump, but feal to you to Donald Trump. They weren't just trying to send a message to my colleague, Mark Kelly. They were trying to use him as an example to scare all the service members right now trying to make an example. Mark's saying, if we can do this to a U.S. Senator, imagine what we can do to you right now. So what they're really trying to send that message about, which I just find to be so offensive treating our service members in that way. >> Well, it does put them in a very difficult position, and it does make it very difficult for members of your body to sort of navigate a space where at any moment a president can come after you when you're standing, talking about the Constitution or standing, talking about a public policy that is of import to the American people. So he still brings me back to the point. How do we help a Mark Kelly from not happening again? How do we begin to stem the flow? We were talking about this with our last guest about a president who just acts the way he wants to act, and there's no real recourse for the rest of us. What do you do? You try to, you accept the saying, all this stuff, they're going forward with the action in the Pentagon. What do we left to do to just wait till an outcome and shake our heads? >> Yeah, no, it's so alarming, especially when we're sitting here just down the street from the U.S. Capitol on the eve of the January 6th anniversary. And I think about that five years ago, and I think about how tomorrow I know exactly what my Republican colleagues are going to do, which is absolutely nothing. They're going to do nothing to mark the occasion, nothing to think our Capitol police officers who literally saved our lives. >> They still have to put up the plaque? >> No, they don't even know where it is. They buried it with the, you know, raiders of the last start in some warehouse, somewhere. But look, that's the problem, you know, if they're not even, if colleagues are not even willing to step up and just say what happened at the Capitol five years ago, what we see is just a real cowardice, a lack of courage, and it's a fear that Donald Trump can ruin any of their careers with just one social media post. And unfortunately, that's true, and that's where they're weighing it. They're weighing their own careers ahead of doing what's right. And I just find that offensive because I look, you know, the job is good. It's not that good. You know, where, you know, you're going to betray your own values and a very core element to it. And what you were saying is also interesting, given the conversation that is happening right now on Capitol Hill about this administration's recent actions in Venezuela, especially given that the administration, I mean, of course, they didn't go to Congress for congressional approval. On top of that, they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth about who is actually going to be in charge of this transition. If it is, in fact, a transition inside Venezuela, I want to layer on to that. The fact that you had Secretary Nome on TV this weekend being asked, like, what happens to all of these Venezuelans who are already in the United States, who now effectively become undocumented because of the lapse in temporary protected status. She says, well, you can still apply for asylum almost immediately. Her agency walks that back. How can this administration, on one hand, say this regime is so awful and corrupt that we need to bring in U.S. forces in order to remove the head of Venezuela. And at the same time, say to Venezuelans in this country who have come here seeking asylum, you got to head home. >> And they're also saying that the legal justification for the operation was to support law enforcement efforts, specific to Maduro. And then Trump's saying, well, we can take a second strike at any time and maybe Cuba, maybe Greenland. You know, we see how so much of that falls apart so quickly, and that's because if you asked the fundamental question, which is, what is the goal that they're trying to achieve? You realize that none of that is about democracy, none of that is about protecting people. None of that, honestly, is about American interests. It all goes back to Trump. And this all goes back to Trump and supporting his supporters. That's why over the last 72 hours we've heard Trump use the word oil over and over and over again because we see that what the goal actually is, is what I call mob boss tactics. You know, he's using mob boss tactics. He's reducing our foreign policy to essentially an extortion foreign policy. And he's calling the Maduro regime, Narco Terrorist up and down, but yet he's willing to work with them now, as long as he gets what he wants, as long as Donald Trump's in the take. And I think that that's what is hopefully apparent to the American people right now, as they see just all this laid there as Trump is not trying to hide it. He's saying it out loud right now in terms of what his goal actually is. Every time Rubio or someone else tries to walk it back, he just goes, no, actually, I run the place. I'm in charge. >> Correct. Lizzie Graham was, we played the clip from Air Force One the other, yes, yesterday on their way back. Lizzie Graham is saying, we had to do this. This was about the drugs. This was about everything. He's like, so this isn't about anything, this is American interest. And the President Trump said it's like, yes, so the oil, this is about the oil. Misinformation, disinformation is a very powerful tool. And I think in our fragment and media environment, it is actually more, frankly, more dangerous now than ever. What the American people believe about, not just this operation, but what the President is saying about this operation, what it means for Americans to be true, I think colors a lot of things going down the line. Are you concerned about the role of misinformation and disinformation, can play here in the days and weeks to come because you're not concerned? >> I'm absolutely concerned, yeah, look, I mean, we see the disinformation right out of the gate. I saw and heard it with my own eyes. We had a briefing with Secretary Rubio and Hexat a couple of weeks ago, and we heard directly out of the mountains that this is not about regime change. You know, we're going after the drugs on these boats and that's what this is about. And then all of a sudden, we saw what happened just a few days ago. And every single senator was in that room and they were lied to directly by the Secretary State and the Secretary of Defense. And so I have a lot of concern, not just about what they're saying to the American people, but what they're saying to the American people's representatives and Congress. There's a reason why Trump is not seeking congressional approval because he knows that the American people are not with him. They know that the American people are sick and tired of these endless wars that we've gone through. And I worked in diplomacy, I served in Afghanistan, I worked in Iraq, I'm tired of this. The American people are tired of this. And so Trump, you know, he's just going to say whatever he needs to do together. That's why he said, oh, yes, this is about law enforcement. All, look, you know, Department of Justice, Pam Bondi was not at the briefing talking about these operations. If it was about a law enforcement first operation, why wasn't she the main person? She is over on Capitol Hill, though, briefing those gang of men. Stephen Miller was there, though, just maybe he has on the set. Senator Kim, we appreciate your time tonight. We hope to talk to you again soon. This and other stories will be following in the days and weeks to come. Thank you very much. Thank you. Great break. We are just getting in some new details about that classified briefing that Trump officials gave to select members of Congress. Stay right here on the week now. Hey, everyone. It's Chris Hayes. This week on podcast, why is this happening? Geo Tolentino, staff writer at the New Yorker on what this new cycle combined with social media together are doing to our brains. The things that are fake look extremely real, the things that are real are almost unbelievable. And then the result is this slurry in our mind that causes this permission structure to detach from the material reality of the world. That's this week on why is this happening? So for why is this happening? We're releasing right now and follow. We are getting new details from that classified briefing that top Trump officials gave select members of Congress. Here's Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer just moments ago. The plan for the U.S. running Venezuela is vague based on wishful thinking and unsatisfying. When the United States engages in this kind of regime change and so-called nation building, it always ends up hurting the United States. I left the briefing feeling that it would again. And there it is. And there it is. Look folks, there's a lot happening in the world right now. And as a millennial, I woke up on Saturday again, another once in a generation activity going down. We have we have we have weathered it all. Okay. Especially because this generation has paid the price honestly of these worst. On so many fronts, time and time again, but this is very important. What the government, the action that the government took in Venezuela is important, the lack of transparency around it is important. What the president is threatening to do in other countries is very important, not just for our foreign policy, but here at home. For all the reasons that we talked about for the last almost hour and a half today. But we also have to be able to walk into government to say time because it's not lost on me that while this has been unfolding over the weekend and today, there are millions of people in this country who don't know if they're going to be able to afford their health insurance premiums, who for go, for went health insurance altogether because it was too expensive because the subsidies expired and Congress didn't do anything about it. The rent is too damn high, part of my language in many places across this country. Not to mention the Epstein files, Michael Steele. I'm just saying. Well, this is what I hope everybody can contextualize. This is what wagging, you know, the tail wagging the dog looks like when the, you know, something happens is sort of distracts you from very important things that are also happening at the same time. The points that you laid out about people's personal economies and the safety in their communities. The thing that struck me though in this and the timing and the irony of it was for two weeks prior to Christmas and certainly the New Year, the women, the voiceless, the victims of Jeffrey Epstein had incredible momentum galvanizing the country's attention about what happened to them when they were 14, 15, 16 year old by men in power, men who occupy space to this day in our government and on Wall Street and in businesses around the country. And I don't want us to lose sight of that. Yes, Venezuela is important, Chuck Schumer and the Democrats and others out there sort of late, you know, tagging at is important. But let us not forget the distraction that this could lead to for the case that the women have already laid out. And the fact that the Epstein files have not been fully released. That is still a very important matter that the country needs to focus on as well. We can't Simone walk and chew gum at the same time. And we need to take that gum and stick it to the front of that president's forehead so he understands exactly what's important. It's from your point to your point about making sure that those who do not have the most power listen to is why in this conversation about Venezuela, we need to be hearing from Venezuelans. And we need to keep our eye on headlines like this from Reuters, Venezuelan orders police to find arrest anyone involved in supporting U.S. attack. That is not what democracy looks like. Next MSNAS, Jacob Soberoff, is going to join us to discuss his new book Firestorm and his exclusive sit down with California Governor Gavin Newsom, who is calling out the Trump Administration's disinformation campaign that could make it harder to fight future natural disasters. This is the weeknight. One year ago, devastating wildfires transformed the city of Los Angeles forever. Since then, MSNAS Jacob Soberoff has been reporting on and investigating the blaze that a gulf has childhood hometown, the intersection of disaster management and disinformation, and what we can learn to better tackle future crises. In his brand new book Firestorm, The Great Los Angeles Pires and America's New Age of Disaster. I had the book's release, Jacob sat down for an exclusive interview with California Governor Gavin Newsom. Here's a first look. I love the way you did this book, because you didn't just talk about the crisis from the past and looking at the present and looking where we're going, but also the bull (beep) that is out there. And the fact for the first time in history, we have a president that is promoting that in the middle of these disasters in the middle of the emergencies, where lives are quite literally on the line, and people are buying the bull (beep) of wine and sinker. The disinformation, the misinformation is real, MSNAS, senior political, and national reporter Jacob Soberoff joins us now. Congratulations, first of all. Can we just say that? Yes. Yes. Thank you, guys. And important to remind us that this is not over for L.A., L.A., is still rebuilding. Walk us through what the biggest challenges are right now facing Los Angeles. And just how critical is it for L.A., for California to receive national support? Yeah, I think that that's right. Alicia, and again, thank you guys for having me and for lifting up the book in this conversation that I had with Governor Newsom, because you know when I was there covering the fires a year ago in real time, I could not process what it was like to witness my child's hood home, my neighborhood carbonized in front of my own eyeballs. So it set me off on this month's long experience, diving deeper into all of this, and that included spending a lot of time with Governor Newsom, who in the book details a lot of what you heard there, the disinformation he was up against when it came to the incoming Trump administration and all of the challenges that we all faced in Los Angeles. But it's something actually that persists to this very day. And just last month, Governor Newsom was in Washington trying to get billions of dollars at aid from this administration to keep that recovery effort going, and he says he was rejected out of hand. I asked him about is one of the first things we talked about when we sat down late last week. This is what he told me. It should outrage people listening of all political stripes, even big Trump supporters, refused to even have a member, even an intern from FEMA, meet with me or any member of my administration on the disaster request. There's simply unavailable at any time for even a moment to just engage. He's dismantling FEMA, he's dismantling any notion of objectivity about climate science, research, grants, and supports for cities, counties, states. It's an extraordinary moment, and we're living it in real time. Just to be clear, what he's saying there is Gavin Newsom went to Washington DC last month, and the Trump administration didn't provide but an intern to meet with him about the recovery effort. I asked him if he thought that's because, as President Trump said, he might withhold funds for the recovery because of Gavin Newsom's adversarial relationship with him on the immigration policies that he's been carrying out in California, and Governor Newsom, you go watch the whole interview on YouTube, by the way, said that wasn't a secret. That's exactly what Donald Trump has said, and that is the story that repeats time and again, both in Firestorm and between the two of them in this relationship, and we talked a lot about that. Jacob, this book does a lot. It compels the reader to sort of go into a space that is really unimaginable. You talk about it and get into what happened to your childhood home and the backyard, if you will. To share with the American people what that experience was like, because you have Governor Newsom sort of talking about that devastation that he witnessed, let's take a listen how he described it, and then share on the other side of that how that wrapped around to what you saw and what you remembered growing up to sort of burning right in front of your eyes. It was apocalyptic, I think, as you describe in this, it was like a bomb going off. No other way to describe it. I was there just a few hours after the fire and was there physically in the midst of the firefighting as I went up into the foothills and experienced firsthand what our first responders were dealing with, only to see the aircraft doing fire suppression, only to be taken down hours later because the hurricane forced winds, 80, 90, up to 100 miles per hour. You take it? Michael, how do you wrap your head around what Governor Newsom described there? That is what I saw with my own eyes and that is what readers will understand when they see firestorm that not only was this the costliest natural disaster in the history of the United States, but in some measure it was the fire of the future. It was the fire of the future, not just because of the global climate emergency that we are in, but because of factors like our infrastructure, crumbling, changes in the way we live with thousands of electric car batteries exploding all around us. But part of the devastation that we experienced in real time was just as someone was talking about a minute ago, the misinformation and disinformation being put out by the time the President-elect of the United States, talking about some mysterious source of water that could flow down from the Pacific Northwest or that there was some tap mysteriously, it could be turned on in order to prevent Los Angeles from burning. It was a fallacy then. It is a fallacy now and what play out at that time is still playing out in some measure today and making the recovery effort continually more difficult for all of us that experience what Gavin Newsom described there, what I saw with my own eyes. And I think literally tens of thousands of people experienced as they were evacuated from places all around Los Angeles in a crisis that I think we all thought the big one would be an earthquake, but it was a wildfire and there will be more of them yet. This crisis was a test for Los Angeles, it was a test for California, it was of course a test for Gavin Newsom of his leadership. You asked him how that may play out in coming elections. Let's take a listen to what he had to say. Do you want to be president of the United States? Not the focus, not my interest, not literally have no idea what fate will hold. It's not my area of focus right now. My biggest fear is that people like me focus too much attention away from the task at hand and that task at hand is not complicated into any Democrat listening and watching. I pray you take me literally and seriously the only thing that matters is 2026 taking back the House of Representatives. I wonder how that answer, given you spent a lot of time with the governor, comported with your experience of him walking through this crisis. Well, he hasn't made a secret, by the way, Alicia, that he is thinking about running for President of the United States and he said ultimately fate will decide whether or not he runs and he wants to go out on the campaign trail and work in the 2026 midterms as he did during that Prop 50 fight in California and where he literally got five additional seats added to the House of Representatives by campaigning for that ballot proposition there. But the fact of the matter is his response in crisis to this fire is going to be a part of the calculation people make when they decide whether or not he's suitable to be the commander and chief. We sat in front of those fire hawk, black hawk helicopters. There is an entire fleet of them, it's basically a small army of first responders under the command of the governor. And there will be a lot of scrutiny on his record as well as the records of other local officials including Karen Bass. Those were people that came under the eye of the President-elect Donald Trump, now the President of the United States during all of this. And what he says is judge me by my record. The recovery by the way is not moving as fast as many people would like it to, 40 percent of homes that are being sold are being sold to investors, not to locals, to Californians. People are being forced to move out in one of the most unaffordable states in the union. But Gavin Newsom, if you watch this entire interview and just scan that QR code at the bottom of the screen, has answers for all of those questions. And I think he wants to engage in that fight, that dialogue over the months and the years ahead. >> You know, Jacob, you and Governor Newsom got into a lot of different topics in this interview. And it's not lost on me that the response that the Trump administration and the President himself had as it relates to California and Governor Newsom specifically on the wildfires at a time where as Americans, we should be coming together to help Americans who are in a state of crisis is not divorced from other responses the President has had. I'm specifically thinking about the childcare in this country, right now. We know that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has frozen childcare payments to every single state government across the country as it relates to, as they're thinking about and investigating. And I'm using air quotes for people listening, fraud out of a situation that happened in Minnesota that one could argue that Trump administration has manufactured as a reason to stop these payments. You and Governor Newsom, discuss childcare. I want folks to take a listen and get your reaction on the other side. So, childcare is workforce development, childcare is economic development. You want to get people back in the workforce, you want to support families, you believe in families, then you believe in supporting childcare and childcare workers in the workforce. So it's a real threat and we're trying to game it out. And like so many other threats, he often follows through on them. So I don't take it. I don't think so. I'm not saying that might investigate fraud potentially here in California as it relates to this. So let's and bring it on. Yeah, bring it on someone. The commonality here between this and the issue surrounding the wildfire relief and the response and whether or not he's going to redeploy the National Guard or troops to the streets in Los Angeles and all around the country after he pulled them back at the end of last year. Governor Newsom basically says, I believe he will do any and all of this because he has done it before and he will do it again past his prologue. And so we are going to be watching this all very closely. I would again encourage everybody to watch every minute of this 45 minutes sit down that I did with Gavin Newsom by scanning a QR code because he's taken this very seriously and he was talking about it in this interview in a way that I have not talked to him before. Scan the QR code, take a listen on the YouTube, the book is Firestorm, the great Los Angeles fires, and America's new age of disaster. It is officially out tomorrow. MSNows Jacob Silveroff, thank you so much and again, congratulations to you. Book is no small undertaking, my friend. At the top of the hour, folks, don't miss the Rachel Maddow Show. Rachel will sit down with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly. This is as Defense Secretary Pete Hegstath begins disciplinary proceedings against him after reminding service members that they don't have to follow illegal orders. Coming up next at 9 PM Eastern right here on MSNOW. Well, that does it for the weeknight. We'll see you back here tomorrow at 7 PM Eastern. Senator Jackie Rosen of Nevada will join the conversation and be sure to follow us on social media at weeknight MSNOW. Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at MS.NOW/Project47.