What is ICPM 2023? Let's talk with the organizers, Stefanie Rinderle-Ma and Maximilian Röglinger

Mining your business podcast, the place to be for all of your process mining data science and advanced business analytics, listening needs, joining me as always is my colleague and friend Jakub. How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic, Patrick. I see PM, the international conference of process mining, an event where researchers and practitioners alike come together and talk, discuss, and debate the latest trends in process mining. Some have even likened it to a process mining festival. Joining us on the podcast today is Stephanie Rindalema, a full professor at the Technical University of Munich and Maximilian Rögglinger, a full professor of information systems at the University of Biroid, who have been tasked with organizing this festival and will tell us all about it. Let's go. Hello again from Mining your business podcast, and today's episode is really unusual and also very, very special, Patrick. Let me ask you a question. Do you remember the first time when we actually attended this ICBM conference back in the days in Einholven? Oh, yeah. That was quite some time ago. I remember being very overwhelmed very quickly. Yeah. I was thinking at that time already, oh, man, I've been doing process mining for three years. There's nothing that can surprise me, and then I just entered the room full of people. In this, there was this large lecture hall, and we came actually very early on to attend these research, research days. And I remember in the first session, I was thinking, what are petrionists, so what are these things? And yeah, to quickly, quickly, I realized how complex the topic is and that there is more than just implementing processes. Yeah. I still remember seeing your face when the petrionist topic came up, and that was, we were both staring at each other like, okay, there's a lot here that we need to uncover and talk to people about. Yeah. And actually, we have invited two guests today, Stefanie Rinderlema and Maxime Leandro Glinga. Max is actually someone who has been on the podcast before, so Max and Stefanie, welcome. Thanks. So, having us. Hello. Thanks for having us. Yes. It's really cool to have you both here, because you are this year's organizers of ICPM conference in Rome. And I'll let you introduce the conference in a little bit, but just again, I want to express the gratitude I have for having you here and sharing the story of ICPM and also telling our listeners about the conference, because ultimately, what we would like to do is invite all of our listeners to attend the conference, because it's an amazing opportunity to listen about the topics, about the research, about what the experts in the field are doing, and also the metal network with the best. So, really, really good to have you both here. And yeah, Stefanie, what we really like to do always at the beginning of the episode is also ask our guests about how they came to process mining in the first place. And I love these questions. And you are currently a professor at the Te Wem Technological University of Munich. Can you tell us a bit about your academic career? Yes. Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm currently a full professor at the Technical University of Munich and head of the chair on information systems and business process management. So, I've been here for, yeah, let's say two and a half years roughly now. Before that, I have worked with the University of Vienna in Austria for 11 years. I cannot really believe time is flying, so yes, also I was a professor there in the Faculty of Computer Science. And before that, I did my PhD and rehabilitation with Un University in Germany. And this is also the time actually where I come across process mining in the first place. It even dates back to 2005. It's really amazing how long we have been doing this. And there I was just looking up one of these process mining news letters and I had one of the interviews. And actually, there was the same question. What was my first encounter with process mining? And it was with the BPI workshop, Business Process Intelligence Workshop 2005, where master student Lin Tao-D, she worked on mining the organizational perspective of business processes, which I think it's also interesting to do, to not only look at the control flow, but also at other perspectives. And yeah, she directly was able to publish a paper there. And yeah, from there, it all took on. And since 2005, we have been working with process mining so long and I also think fruitful story. For sure. Can you tell us what process mining looked like in 2005? I mean, because I know we have an idea what it is right now, but I'm sure it looked plenty different back in the day. Yes. So, in 2005, I think it was also where everything more or less, yeah, let's say from 2003, on kind of started. So I remember in 2003, I was at co-operative information systems conference. And I met Anna Caller de Mideiros, she was working with Bill. And they had like the paper, I think, on the alpha miners. So there was a first, I think, like, control flow oriented process discovery techniques. So it started from there, looking at the event log and then finding ways of discovering the process model from the event log. And I think there was a lot of research going on on this, finding, yeah, starting from the alpha-minus start, yeah, which has some, yeah, some limitations, let's say, finding new process discovery techniques. And yeah, there was a lot going on, yeah, the heuristics minor followed up and so on. The genetic miners or dealing with noise, for example, in the data and so on. And I had the opportunity to also spend a short post-docs day with Bill at the Technical University of Eintrofen in 2006. And there we were looking at change mining, so how we could mine changes from event logs. So I think I was mostly interested in looking at different perspectives, not so much on this classical control flow discovery techniques that were around there a lot. But looking at, for example, the organizational perspectives or changes that happen and so on. I'm moving on to the present. What is it that you actually focus on in their web right now? Yes. So our process mining is really still, let's say, a line of research that we are pursuing a lot. So we have been working, that's why for 10 years now, a lot was the manufacturing domain. And we have seen that in the manufacturing domain, but I think also in other domains, we have very challenging data. So we are not only having like event-based data, but also, for example, a lot of sensor data. So there's a lot of data collected, a little bit in, let's say, silo data like way. And here process mining and process automation offer great opportunities, connect all of these data lakes and then find out more about the process. So what drives or moves our thinking currently is how we can be bring together process mining with other, let's say machine learning techniques, for example, with time series analysis, analyzing the sensor data, all the context around the process and then bringing these things together. Very interesting. So now what shall I want to also bring our second guest on the show, Max? And I wonder, have you ever worked on some research also together with Max? Yeah, Max and I know each other for quite some time. And we have some initiative going on in Bavaria, which Max is leading. And that's a great thing, I guess, because even in Bavaria we have some, I think how many I mean, Max, please correct me, I think seven or eight colleagues working on process mining plus industry partners. And I very much appreciate this initiative turned by Max to bring these people together and to do stuff. And yeah. And I think it also, yeah, we have some, some commonalities like in looking at realistic data and challenging settings. Max, you have been on our show before. So I will not go into the very same questions I usually ask when we have someone here for the first time. But the first time we had you, you were actually talking about central excellence and what's driving the initiatives in the companies and how to set it up properly. What are the main factors? Has anything changed since we recorded this episode year and a half ago? Yeah, that's a good question. I think we are currently thinking about how these new emerging technologies such as, for example, generative AI are changing a set of excellence setups, yeah, because the way that people are interacting with process mining software, for example, becomes ever more intuitive and we also anticipate that there will be changes on the level of governance, data engineering, roles and so on. So from the, from the disruptive technology side, I think this is definitely a topic we are currently investigating. And we also see that from a traditional set of excellence perspective that we move more on towards the scaling, yeah, of centers of excellence. So we also had a look at this when we did our original COE study. But we now see that given all the environmental and political developments that the resources are becoming ever more scarce, yeah, we also see that the resilience is an ever more important topic. And then these overall environmental developments also have an impact, yeah, on how to set up organizations and how to deal with processes and process data. Max, I just wanted to personally thank you. I've used the research paper that we talked about last show when talking to clients to talk about how to establish COEs and all the benefits of them. So that was great material. Thank you for that. But my question is going to be, you mentioned resilience. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure. So this was, by the way, I think also a joint research project with Stephanie. We did this paper on how exogenous shocks influence business process management. And you all know the traditional BPM community is a very good at improving business processes incrementally. Of course, there are also approaches in the tradition of business process re-engineering where existing processes are just thrown away and set up from new, from scratch. But with more or less the same value of proposition, yeah. And the question now is, is business process management as a discipline able to deal with such exogenous shocks, yeah, for example, if logistics doesn't work anymore, yeah, because companies do not only need to focus on the processes that are operated within the organizational boundaries, but they are also embedded in value networks, in ecosystems, and so on. And here resilience comes into play, yeah. Because first of all, we need some kind of resilience within the organization, yeah, to dampening the external effects that are happening outside. And as organizations are also integrated parts of ecosystems and value networks, we also need a dampening mechanisms for all things that may happen within the value network. Yeah. We need also governance, we need IT, we need all the things and process mining is also important technology because it allows us to get evidence based insights into inter-organizational processes and value chains. And is that something that you're looking into right now, is that your focus of research or what are you looking into? Actually, we are just starting to look into that, yeah. So traditionally, we have been focusing on processes that are operated within the boundaries of organizations, but this is not sufficient anymore, yeah. And Stephanie just talked about manufacturing processes, I mean, this is the perfect domain for looking at inter-or-cross-organizational processes. And I think from a process mining perspective, one of the key challenges is to have locks or data somehow harmonize across companies, across the value network. And this is, again, a point where we cannot only do organizational PPM research, here we need also technical research on how to get such inter-organizational process locks. And this is still at the beginning. Mm-hmm. Well, I also want to thank all the listeners that this is exactly where you can pick up the discussion with Max and Stephanie, if you participate in ICPN Rome. And that actually brings me to the ICPN. And since we have the hosts here themselves, please introduce us to this conference, which is going to take place in Rome this year. Yeah, well, yeah, if I might start, so yeah, PC co-chair this year, so I'm together with my very charming colleagues, I have to say, I have to mention them, of course. This is Jorge Munoz Gama from the Catholic University of Chile and Ariks and the Rovich from York University in Canada, so we have a quite international team here. So we had PC chairs. That means that we are, yeah, this leading and kind of managing the scientific program of the conference. Of course, there are more things that the ICPN conference, we have an industry program, we have workshops, we have a keynote and everything. So this is a very nice and very, yeah, let's say, colorful program that we have. But yeah, I can comment on the scientific program if you want me to. I have actually a question. Yes. How are the venues selected? Because we have a second year in a row, Italy, last year it was in Bosn in the north, Italy, which was actually very lovely, you know, surrounded by the Alps. The year before it was end of, if I recall correctly, the year before it was in Aachen, maybe remotely because it was the COVID times, but maybe I'm wrong. How is the venue selected? I mean, I'm not, this is typically done by the steering committee of a conference. I'm not, let's say, no member of the ICPN steering committee. I'm a member of other steering committees, for example, the PPM conference. And yeah, there are several considerations. So, I mean, first of all, these are two things. So you have to, yeah, you have to also find a group, people who are willing and capable of hosting such a conference that's, let's say that's quite some task, yeah. So I participated in an organization also myself and I can say this, yeah, it's really something where you have to think about a lot of things and then, yeah, also be able to do all the financial stuff, everything. So this is really some, some important task. So it's always great if people, yeah, kind of can imagine doing something like this. And then of course, sometimes, yeah, you have also some kind of, yeah, thinking that maybe you want to have different countries or even different continents involved or something like this. I don't know why two times Italy in a row because I'm not involved in this, but I mean Italy you can go as many times, right? Yeah, I'm not complaining, I'm not complaining either, never been thrown. Maybe a question, how does the ICPN differs from some other conferences, maybe even vendor hosts that you, we all hear about cellosphere, but also SAP or other vendors are hosting their own show, their own conferences. How does ICPN differ from that? Perhaps I can take this question. So the key thing is that the ICPN conference is mainly driven from the academic community in order to push the latest research insights into process mining. So this is one of the key things. So it is by design, vendor, neutral, yeah, but this does not mean, of course, that we do not talk to practitioners, to vendors, to professional service companies. I think we will talk about this later when we come to the industry track, specifically. But by nature, this is an academically driven conference to push the boundaries of process mining research. So you said push the boundaries. So people hold talks there about the research that they've done in the previous year and then presented and then there's some form of discussion. Is that ultimately always the goal in this ICPN that we have some sort of presentation? We talk, we communicate, we get together and discover new areas of research that might be interesting or what is the goal? Yeah, sure. I think that's the key purpose of any conference or specifically any academic conference. So people do research upfront, submit the best papers that they have to the renowned conferences and ICPN definitely is one of the renowned conferences in this area. And then they are really proud to present their latest research insights and to get into exchange with fellow researchers, but also getting the feedback from the people from industry who also attend the conference. So what does the selection criteria look like for someone that is working in the research part about getting to present at ICPN? Yes, so we have well established selection process so to believe you have a deadline of course and people submit their research work. And then we have three PC program community members, so from the scientific community experts looking at them and writing reviews, giving constructive comments and feedback on that. And then the PC chairs, they steer that and also initiate discussions if there's for example, some divergence in the assessment of the reviews in order to really provide that say the best possible feedback that we can and based on the assessment of the reviewers and the discussion. And finally, the papers that are accepted for the conference are selected. What are some of the, let's say typical categories of papers that people are submitting? Is it more on like algorithm improvement? Is it some outlier search or is it maybe more of this organizational topic that Max talks a lot about? How is this categorized? Yeah, so let's say I would say the papers go into different directions. We have papers that more deal with the algorithmic like our technique part. So they suggest, for example, new algorithms for online performance checking or something like this. And then we have papers that refer to more of the fundamentals. Let's say they propose, for example, new conception models or extended conception models. You talked about p3nets in the beginning, right? So yeah, going into this direction. And then we have also write some papers that deal with very interesting applications of process mining. So applications, and this is also reflected on the call for papers, can be, for example, in artificial intelligence, blockchain or RPA, robotic process automation or something. But also then in very specific applications, for example, in a, I don't know, emergency unit process in a hospital or something. So, and I think also all of them is very interesting and I like very much this interplay so that everything comes together here. And what I also like, and this is also in a call for papers that we also pay a lot of attention on the input data, the event data that we are looking at because I think the algorithms as always very much depend also on the quality of the data, I mean the results that we obtain in the end. And here, so people are also working on this class. It's also highly recommended and highly appreciated if people provide data sets. So we have a bunch of data sets, but it's always good to have more real world data sets to have more opportunity to compare also all the algorithms and techniques that we are developing. So you're part of the review process that looks at a lot of these research papers. Did you ever come across one that you thought, wow, this is something that we're doing or wow, this really works or is this one stand out to you that you care to mention? Well, yes, so we are currently, let's say in the process for this year's ICPM, but according to my experience, there are like outstanding works where you really think, okay, well, this is really what we, for example, yet we have this requirements in one of our projects and we definitely know this would be helpful in, for example, in the manufacturing domain, this is what we need. So definitely yes. And I mean, for like really outstanding papers, for a lot of conferences, there are also awards giving to let's say the best paper or best student paper, what and I also appreciate this a lot because it's also very encouraging for people submitting, yes. And particularly for young people, I also like this a lot. Would you recall some of the papers that really stroke you like that they are really, really great and that maybe in a few years, we will see this applied in real life that were really, really great. So I cannot really say something about this year's conference yet because we have not announced accepted papers, but let's say what I liked, what we were looking into lately are also all these works on predictive process monitoring. So I think all these predictive stream is a very important stream to take a look at. So process mining has been historically and I think there's a normal development, a lot of X-Post analysis, so looking at logs and instances have already been finished and everything. So I'm a big fan and looking into everything in an online way and also making some statements about the future, so this can be like what are the next activities, what is the remaining time, what maybe also some saying something about the outcome of the processes. And here there are also quite some nice works on like surveys on these because there's, this is exploding, that's so much work going on is predictive process monitoring world. So there, I think, yeah, at least I think I know about 10 surveys in this area already. So this is something I would recommend to start reading when you are interested in this topic and want to start to look into this. Oh, well, so you mentioned a competition, is this also the case for the papers submitted to ICPM? Is there a competition and there's some prizes for the best paper? So this, right as a best paper, what I think is also given at the ICPM conference. This is then also, yeah, based on a criteria like the review quality and also the presentation people are giving. So saying, okay, well, this was very encouraging and also included like the audience during the session and led to a lot of discussions of, yes. So I assume at the end, when all the papers are submitted and reviewed, they will be public. Also the listeners can read that and there will be links also on the conference website, which by the way, you will also find in the links of this episode. So check the show notes. And what I also wanted to ask you Stephanie, before I hand over also to Max was I always keep hearing that academia is few years ahead of the industry that there are topics that you know, we are just not ready for them, due to the complexity or still abstraction and so on. Have you or do you see some trends that have been academic still for the last few years and are slowly, slowly, but surely finding their way into the industry? Yes. So I mentioned already this predictive process monitoring. I think this is one trend and in my prediction has been around there, but then in connection with this process oriented point of view that we have. Also what is currently, I think, some trend to be considered. And I think this is going here a little bit academia and then industry might go hand in hand. This is object centric point of view on process mining that we are seeing currently arising. So this is a whole change in how we look at the results and how we look at the data. And I think there will be a lot of follow up work arising. So here we can still work on discovery techniques, on conformance and predictive and everything. So I would say these are, I think, two directions where we can still work on and do a lot of things as an academia. And I think eventually also will benefit industry. Right. There is also a little note for me because we covered both of these topics in our previous episodes with Marlon Dumas and Wilfand Raust, both objection to process mining and prescriptive process mining. So be sure to check out those episodes. And that actually brings us to the industry track with I'll be very frank here for me that's usually the more more interesting one because there I see the application of the academic research in practice, not to say that the economical isn't interesting. It's actually super fascinating. But there we have the industry track. Max, can you tell us something about industry track? Yeah. Sure. To be honest, for me, this is also at least as interesting as the academic program that you know from my Fraunhofer role. We do a lot of projects with industry partners and that's why it's always super important for us to get to know what's going on out there. And it's also super inspirational for us. Yeah. So the industry track is a fixed part of the program of the ICPM right from the conferences beginnings. But this year we tried a completely new approach because practitioners typically do not want to write papers and they do not have the time to write papers. So it's very hard to get papers or reports submitted to the conference. But nevertheless, people from industry have so many stories to tell and experiences to share. And that's why we piloted a submission free approach this year. So the idea is to have a super interactive format, so everybody can join the industry day, people from industry, people from academia, and we have compiled a speaker line of 25 high profile experts from industry, yeah, from companies that apply process mining, from professional service companies, and also from the vendors, of course, to have a holistic perspective on what's going on in industry. And then we have focus sessions where business topics, technical topics are briefly introduced by the high profile speakers. So you mean people who have been working with process mining for at least five years and have accumulated a huge amount of experiences. And then everybody can join and engage in the discussion and get first hand experiences. And we framed this by a keynote also from Marlon, yes, and we also have a panel discussion to have some more structured formats. But it will be highly interactive with low effort, a priori in terms of writing papers or submissions. Yeah, it's more about getting in contact and networking. Okay. So you mentioned highly interactive sessions and how does that differ from like the research talks in the previous days or later days. Yeah. So typically sessions at the conferences for academic papers are organized in a way where first of all the researchers give a presentation of the paper that they have written and submitted and that got accepted. And afterwards, you have a discussion, yeah. And typically in a session of 90 minutes, you have three paper presentations, yeah, 30 minutes each. So that's a typically way it works. And of course, in the industry track, we only have very short impulse presentations by the industry partners. Yes, we would like to dedicate the biggest part of the time on Q and A. We call it ask the pros because we really have the people there with a huge amount of experiences. And I would like, I say, if we have 90, I'm a 90 minutes, a section session there. We have 10 minutes or 15 minutes intro and the rest is Q and A interaction. And I'm very confident that per topic we will have two hosts, yeah, from two different groups participating in the process mining universe to get differentiated perspectives on the topic. I love that she said process mining universe. I think I'm going to use it at some point as well. What I wanted to ask is whether there will be some central topic of this industry day or whether it will be really cut into smaller chunks. And let's say here we go into adoption. Here we go into applying prescriptive process mining in practice. And eventually, if also the potential visitors of the festival, sorry, of the conference, I keep saying festivals, sorry for that. It's okay as well. I've been at the music festival two weeks ago and it just sucks in my head. So whether there will be also at some point the program and the people will know what to attend and maybe also know who will be presenting there. Yes. So first of all, there will be no single theme topic for the industry track because so we've been talking and we are always talking to many people from industry and there are many different perspectives on process mining in the heads of people from industry. We have the classical how to start topic. We have the how to scale topic so more from the organizational part and also from the organizational part. We have the how to create value from process mining topic. Yes. And then we have a group of people who are engaged in a more technical sense. Yeah. For example, how to extend the classical way of doing process mining from the intro organizational to the inter organizational perspective. Yeah. How to scale up data modeling and engineering, how to integrate process mining with RPA for example. So what we really try to do is we try to have six sessions in parallel more or less covering the entire range from business to technical topics and we will have one session I think on Wednesday and the second session on Thursday. So so people can then switch topics and also network in between. Yes. So that gets gets lost. We also try to write up the key key results a little bit as well after the conference because we know that nobody will be able to attend all sessions of course. Yeah. And there will be also us Patrick and myself covering it a little bit from the media site and also giving you the best nuggets later on the podcast episode. Yeah. Stephanie actually I have a question for you. So is there something you would like to really hear as an academic in this industry track something that's really a spark fear attention and interest and that you want the practitioners to answer for you? This is a very important thing and what I really would like to hear is. So first of all, how is process mining maybe currently really applied if it is and what other requirements, what kind of data is there and what they wish for. So what would they be like in their dreams process mining universe as said before. So what would be great to have because from that we can learn a lot as scientists also I think. And Max actually back to you I read on the website that there will be also some sort of interactive workshops for people to attend. What do we understand as a workshop is it like that there will be a booth with a computer and people can go and try the software or how does it look like? Yeah. So there will be different formats that we will be able to offer. Yes. So first of all, so we have the basic program is composed of the keynote, the interactive sessions, the podium discussion and one further highlight is that within the group of the high profiles because we will have a master class. And the master class is really dedicated to the things that Stephanie just said. So to find out and collect topics relevant for vendors and for professional service companies and also for academics in order to make sure that process mining will still be a fantastic topic to work on from a research and then industry perspective in five to ten years. So this is exactly what the master class is about. And then surrounding or as ancillary event with a festival character for example, there will be definitely live demos that will be a booth by some vendors that will be networking and one or one meeting opportunities to route this up. Yeah, and to make this, yeah, I really like the festival metaphor. We should keep this. People should have fun, people should be engaged in discussions. Yes. So I mean, this is the what third time that we'll be going and from the past experience, I can confirm it is festively, like it's a lot of fun talking to the people and getting to know sides of process mining that you've probably never experienced before. So based on my last two visits, one of those things that was always surprising coming from more of an industry side was that the research was always saying we would like to have access to the data sets or the size of data sets that people in the industry would like to work with. That was always like a call to action. We need more data, we need better data, more of it, and I'm wondering if this has changed in the since the last time the ICPM was taking place or if it has least gotten better. I think, Stephanie, I think this still is the same, yeah. So as you just said, yeah, without data, you cannot apply process mining, yeah, and the more challenging and real world style data we have, the better the algorithms and eventually the software and the solutions offered by vendors can get, yeah. But of course, you know that a data is the holy grail, yeah, and of course the companies are super strict, yeah, and of course it is, yeah, and I think this has remained the same challenge. Yeah, so let's, let this be also a call to action for anyone who might listen to our episode and who might have the power and access to provide such data set to Stephanie or Max and let us cooperate. Yeah, the next question I actually had is what do you see as a current gap between the industry and academia may be putting aside this data problem? Yes, so from my experience, it's a little bit the missing process orientation in industry. So I think, I mean, we have two things with process mining, but then we have also process orientation, process automation, all these things. And we very much advocated that maybe companies first might give process orientation, process automation a chance, then we can collect the data, then we can process mining, do process mining to improve the processes and get more insights. I mean, typically I think it's done the other way around. There is data, yeah, but often data is not collected with a process in mind. So I think that's a gap that is still there and I think like object oriented or object sending process mining is helping because you don't need this case ID. You can make use of more data possibly. But still, this is something I would very much like to see and then also maybe close the circle back if you have done process mining, find out very interesting things, go more steps towards than taking a process oriented approach, automating the processes and not only robotic process automation. So robotic process automation is very much task oriented, so there's a single task that are repetitive. They put like, yeah, you I kind of operating software bot on top, but I am talking about like orchestrations, very several tasks that are connected in some certain logic. And for the manufacturing domain, we have found out that this has a huge integration aspect which they appreciate a lot, which they need. So they can now connect their tasks, their machines, everything via the process. So this would be a huge prospect, but I think we are not there yet as much as we would like it to be. Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe back to you as well. Yeah, I would fully agree and basically have nothing to add. I think these are the key points. Nevertheless, and I think that Stephanie would agree, I think, so in the process, mining area, we can be really happy because there are really vivid exchanges between industry and academia. And basically, there are always the same people around, yes. So it's very good because the two communities, they have a joint origin and they have a joint origin and they have not developed independently from each other. Yeah, and this is what I personally really like. If you visit a vendor specific event, if you go to an academic conference, if you go abroad to talk about process mining, there are always the same people around and there's a very constructive mindset in order to exchange. Yeah, I think there's also a very big openness towards new developments and the sense of making the cake bigger, yes, or not trying to get a bigger piece of a cake of the same size, but trying to enlarge the process mining universe as we called it before. And I think this is also the competition industry, of course, is super intense and super fierce, but nevertheless there's a really constructive attitude in mindset, specifically regarding the exchange between industry and academia. So I'm very happy about that. Speaking of going abroad, I know in industry we have, or at least me personally, I'm seeing a trend that in Europe, specifically in the Netherlands and Germany and things like that, process mining are very well on their way and established and making strides. However, if you look outside of Europe, maybe the US or other bigger players in the field, the adoption is, or at least isn't as fast as you would see it in Europe. And I was wondering, on the research side, do you see a similar trend in how is cooperation internationally or outside of Europe, I should say? Yes, this is a very valid observation to make also for academia, so I have a lot of research we're going on in Europe and Australia also, let's say, but of course it would be super great if it could also receive more, let's say, contributions and go into more corporations with the US. I mean, there's a lot going on in South America, I have to say, so there's also, yeah, there are hawk, for example, being to see coach there, so there's also a lot going on. So yes, I think it's also developing, but the US, it's a good question, so this whole information systems and also PM research topics are perceived a bit different, I guess, but I think maybe process mining, I have only very anecdotical evidence for that, not real, is maybe a good key to open maybe more, yeah, also research work and corporations there could be. So is this something that you're looking to do or at least expand the border of process mining globally to more and more places? Yes, totally yes, I mean, a good sign that I have is that for some positions that I advertised recently, my team, I also got applications from the US for the first time, so maybe, maybe okay, what I want to ask before we wrap up today's episode is how do you feel about being able to host such a conference and having all those bright minds coming into one university and sharing their ideas and seeing and you also basically witnessing and helping to co-create this amazing movement and amazing community that process mining really is. How do you feel about that? So from my side, I feel great. I also like this festival kind of thinking before, I mean, coming a lot from the PPM conference, I think the spirit is similar, ICPM is even more focused, yeah, everyone is talking about process mining, this is really great, so I think you have an immediate channel to talk to each other, so other conferences are, let's say, more broad in what they're doing, there's a small conference and I think many people do different things and this is maybe harder to share and to come into talking and everything, so I think for ICPM, this is super focused and that's very great and the community is great and I really also love to see that young people are interested in this and pick this up and there's a lot of interest, so this is a really very cool feeling, yes. So for me it's the same, so without the bonding with the community, I would not have stayed in academia, to be honest, for me this was really central when I did my PhD and also when I did my postdoctoral qualification, so being in contact here with the community and also, I'm helping a little bit to help the community exchange and further develop has also been always been super important for me and that's why when the conference chairs approached me and asked whether I would like to organize, co-organize the industry track, I immediately said yes because this is a unique opportunity that you get. Well I can say that I'm really looking forward to this year's ICPM and not only because it's in Rome but also to see you all in person and again, experience these cool vibes and this, I would almost like a mirage ship of people working towards similar or maybe even same goals. Stephanie Maxx and any last words to really pump up the people and invite them to the ICPM. I would say ICPM brings it all together, you have everything from industry to scientific, you have great keynotes, you have workshops, you can participate in any form that you want and process mindings, one of the hottest trends nowadays, so why not comment, and Rome, of course. And I would like to add, I think it's always, still for me today, a super experience to get into this conference flow, typically when you attend a conference you do not have all these appointments that you typically have during the day so your mind is on exchange mode, on open mode, on festival mode and this is always super inspiring. You get so many new ideas and it's really broadening, also your personal horizon, so I think this is a must have, must attend event and I hope to see many people around both from industry and from academia. Well, you've heard it, if you are not in ICPM conference this year it's as if you weren't even in the process minding field. Exactly. So be sure to come and talk, not only to Stephanie and Max, but also to many, many other guests and lectures and experts, many of which we've actually hosted in our podcast, so if you go back and see some of the names on the guest list, you will also see them in the conference. So also come talk to us, I think we'll be there. We'll be there, we'll be there, we'll always have it to talk. Anyhow, thank you for listening, I hope we get to see each other in the conference. If not then at least listen to our next episode of mining your business podcast and also you can look forward to a release that will follow after the conference with some of the best content and the best speakers and guests who will share their wisdom on process mining. If you like us, leave us a rating, give us a review or write us an email on mining your business podcast at gmail.com and we will talk to you in two weeks of time. Thank you and bye bye.