What Is Going On With Kawhi & The Clippers? Big Decisions For Denver & Phoenix

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Hook Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing from Paris for me here on late Sunday evening, and joining me on Sunday morning, or late morning, maybe it's all you afternoon, from Northern California as Anthony Slater. What's up Slater? - Almost directly noon. And I'm in the Sacramento area, it's hot. It's like 102 or something like that. So we're reached that part of the summer. - Yeah, no kidding. What's been hot in Europe as well. So lots of NBA folk, though in Europe right now, this is a time. The Spurs have all been over here all week. Victor Wembe and Yama hosting get together with most of the Spurs team. They've been around town. They got a little bit better access to the Louv than I did Slater. Like they posted a photo of all of them right next to the Mona Lisa, like in the room by themselves. I did not have such access. - How about you get it? Did you see what Victor posted? He was on a boat in the sun. And he looked at the Eiffel Tower and then looked back at himself and said, "Just like the River Walk in San Antonio." So I don't know if that was endearing or I'm not sure which, you know. We'll just go with endearing because Victor is, we're still learning about his personality a little bit. - How new to you are like the summer team trips? I mean, I think it just feels like they're popularizing more and more. Obviously Luke is doing one, right? It's Slovenia. I think guys do the LA ones, but it feels like it's definitely like the flood of international guys in the league. It just feels like it's becoming more and more popular. - It's definitely something that most teams do. I think in some cases, like the team is sort of, I don't make any calculations. I think the team sort of sometimes secretly subsidizes it a little bit. There's certainly subsidized by sending personnel there in a lot of cases to make sure their players are taking care of. I mean, last year we had the really unfortunate situation with Fred Van Vleek when he tore his ACL on the rocket strip to the Bahamas. But they have like over the last decade, it was like, "Oh, we're gonna get together in Miami or LA "and now it's getting more and more far flung." So Victor hosts the team in Paris this summer. Lucas hosts them in Slovenia. Where's this envelope going, Slater? - What are also the rules? This will be probably the theme of the podcast. I'm sure 'cause we're about to get to Hawaii, but what are the rules as far as like, 'cause I know like some coaches go and might kind of help run like, you know, a scrimmage, but I think you can't do like too much organized type team drills. I'm sure, like is the head coach even allowed? Can he sit there in the gym and watch? Sure, how does it? - Yeah, I'm not sure. And I'm not like, you know, it's as close to the media. So we don't exactly know what's going on. So a lot of it is you're basically relying on social media, so I don't know. But I know that some teams have gone to the Union's facility in Spain. The Union has a facility in Spain. In fact, the Union just announced this week this has actually been the case for a while, but they officially opened it. The Clippers, you know, they built a new facility in into a dome. How about that for a transition? I'm about to make there Slater. And their old facility in LA and Playa Vista, the Union acquired. And so now the Union has a base in New York. You've seen that in many different social media videos, the Union's base and a high rise in Manhattan. They have a cord up there. And so players can go there and work out. They've had this one in Spain for a few years, which players have used in the summer. And now they have one officially in LA, like a Biscuit Union base. And, you know, I know that there's downward pressure on salaries and spending to a certain extent because of the aprons. It feels like teams are sort of cutting spending. But just in case you didn't know, but the NBA money is pouring into the NBA. The Union now with three global workout facilities. And this week, I read a story that the first, so the teams are getting new jets. Do you know about this later? No. Okay. So the teams have for the last, you know, I don't know, seven to 10 years have been using this fleet of Delta 757s. They look like greater than Delta planes. They're outfitted for teams. NHL teams use them. WMBA teams use them. They're used, but basically they're outfitted for NBA teams. I think there's like 14 or 15 of them. And they circle around the country, moving teams around all year long. Well, they're getting, over the next year, they're getting replaced. And the first new NBA jet is ready. It just got ready in the last week. I think it got delivered last week or so. And, you know, what the upgrade done this later is, is that now they have lay flat seats. I traveled to China with the Warriors several years ago, you know, just for logistical purposes. It was like everybody, you know, packed into the same monster plane. And I got that experience, the lay flat for that trip. Wow. I'm very impressed that you made the cut getting the lay flat seat. They didn't stick you in the back as a media member. That's, well, I went then went to Japan several years later. And I was in like that, that, that back set. I think it was an even more of an upgraded plane for, you got to run the Warriors at the time with the Beatles. I mean, like, I walked off the plane in China right behind Steph. And it was like, you know, it was like a seat, you know, like a, one of those old backseat boys videos where like, there's like all these people going crazy at that. That's what it felt like walking off a plane. Steph and Clay, that's when they had the toaster. You remember the thing with Clay with the toaster? No, reminding about the toaster. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm familiar with China Clay. Clay one time signed a toaster at like an event. And it became like part of his lure. I was like, you know, what, you know, he's Clay, he's signing a toaster. And then we got to China that had just happened semi recently. And then we got to China. And there was a ton of Chinese fans with like toasters, like holding and that's amazing. That is something that the Chinese would really attach themselves to because because the games are an impossible hour in China. And I, this is the same in the Philippines. My experience there, it's hard for them to watch the actual live game. So they really attached themselves, you know, they consume the NBA largely on social media. And it's largely, you know, memes and social media stuff. And so that's exactly that's exactly what the Chinese would love. It was a story like that. But anyway, yeah, but that was, you know, that was an overseas charter. That isn't a normal, that isn't, you know, an everyday flight from, you know, you know, San Francisco to, you know, Chicago. And now, you know, and they, I don't think all the planes are going to be there. But starting this year, they're going to, the live live seats are going to be moving in. So that's, I mean, frankly, the team's travel overnight. The technology is available. Like it only makes sense that they have that. So I have a question for you. You said they were delivered this week, or at least the first one was, well, the first one, the first, every team got it delivered. Or, you know, is there a, like, no, no, no, no, no, like I said, they share them, they share them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, they rotate around and like each team has a different, like, when a team comes in, they like slip, like signage in. And, you know, it has signage all over the thing. But when they're done with the Warriors flight, then they take all the Warriors signs down. And up, now they're flying the heat, you know, you know, you know, somewhere. And they put all the heat signage in, like they, you know, but they're all the same planes. That's the same fleet. How many planes total do you need to, you know, execute an NBA calendar? I think there's 14 or 15. Yeah. Sounds about right. There's 14 or 15. Let's just do story time brought to you by SoFi. Get your money, right? More who've collected podcast after this. When I was in the Cavs locker room, and I was covering the Cavs, and there was this, this moment where the team, the travel manager came over to LeBron before the game. And on that particular night, there was just a crazy amount of NBA teams traveling, and NHL teams traveling. And so they actually like ran out of planes. So they had to like, this probably doesn't happen that often, but they had to like go get an extra plane. And the Cavs had a short trip. They were going to like Milwaukee or Washington or something. And so he didn't just tell LeBron, he told all the players this, but I remember standing next to LeBron when this happened. And he was like, hey, just so you know, there's no card table on the plane tonight. They were playing a game and they were traveling after for our back to back. And he was going around telling people, hey, just so you're aware, you know, we got a different type of plane tonight, no, no card table in it. And LeBron said, boy is so and so going to be really pissed off about that because there was a big game plan and they were down. So now, lay flat seats and probably banquet tables in the, in the New Jets. So I don't know about the banquet tables. I'm just, I do know they have lay flat seats, which may have a good points later. If there's only a few of those planes, like, you know, if, you know, let's say that, you know, only a few of them are rotated in, you know, who gets the, who gets the good plans, hopefully the long trips, you know, I don't know. Anyway, I'm sure there'll be some. I was about that during the stretch. Let's focus on the Los Angeles Clippers, because Pablo Torre, late last week, had an update to his reporting on Kawaii Leonard and the Clippers. And let me just say, it involves the scoreboard maker, Dactronics, who did the $100 million scoreboard into it, the Halo board, they call it. It's an unusual scoreboard like no one I've ever seen. - It's unbelievable. - Yeah, instead of, you know, most scoreboards you're looking at the four or five or six sides, but you're looking at the outside, it's hanging in the center, you're looking at the outside. The Halo board goes all around the whole arena and you're looking up sort of in the inside of the ring. I'm the outside too, but the inside of the ring, so it has a completely different vantage point and way more surface area. I don't know for a fact, but it's probably the most elaborate scoreboard ever built in the arena. - Certainly in America. - Yeah, I mean. - Yeah, certainly the ones we've seen. - Yeah, the innovation was the cowboy stadium, right? Back in the day, and this is way more elaborate than that. - Right, it's a completely different sort of inside out. So, Slater, what the key thing that Pablo was reporting here is that Kawai Leonard had, he cites a former clippers official who said that Kawai had a multi-million dollar sponsorship deal with Dactronics, which has never been announced. Dactronics never announced that, you know, Dactronics doesn't even do typically, I don't even advertise it, or any marketing, at least not marketing to the public. - The only celebrity endorseor ever would be what? - We don't know that, we don't know, but obviously it's suspicious. Now, when the aspiration story came out a year ago, for me Slater was hard to understand because I didn't understand what aspiration was as a company. I didn't understand carbon credits. I mean, I understand the general concept of it, but I didn't understand how this was such a big business, planting trees and selling carbon credits. And it definitely was highly suspicious because we'll let the NBA do investigation, but I had difficulty understanding it, and also, the guy who ran aspiration was a fraudster. The one thing that, throughout the entire aspiration scandal, and I am not an investigative reporter, nor am I doing, I did a little bit of reporting on that story, like I called some other clipper sponsors and asked them if they were ever asked to, you know, throw money co-wise away and they said no. But I really haven't done the story. I am not involved with it at all. But from where I sat, the guy who went to prison for many years, this guy, Joe Sandberg. To me, it looked to me like it was a Ponzi scheme where he needed new investment to keep his Ponzi scheme going, and he did whatever made Steve Balmer happy to because he was where he's given the new investment from. That, to me, looked like what it was. I'm not saying that's what it was. I'm just saying, I didn't understand, okay? It was just hard to completely get. Let me say this situation is not hard to understand. At least the concept, because what Pablo is laying out is the appearance of a kickback. I can figure out a kickback very easily. I do not have to have FBI training or be an assistant US attorney to understand the concept of a kickback. And that is not directly what Pablo is alleging here, but that is the scenario that he is laid out. And the thing that comes along with this is that some other outlets, including the athletic have reported that the league was looking at a second deal with involving Kauai. And the terrain to Toronto was slowed down. And the other thing that I think is very interesting to me is that electronics did not come out with a statement on Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday, or Sunday. We'll see what the new week brings. That completely denied this whatsoever. They had a crisis PR man and outside public relations specialists say something like, well, Kauai is under contract with the electronics right now. It was not a full-throated denial. And so lots of haze here. The clippers didn't comment, but later this, to me, is extraordinarily troubling and is now, you know, and the lack of response for days on end here, 'cause remember, the clippers when the, when the aspiration thing came out within a day or two, Steve Balmer was in Bristol, Connecticut, talking and denying to Ramona. And Ramona, Shelburne, our colleague, and look, maybe, we're in the summer, people are, I'm the, I, you know, story may change in the next 12 hours. I'm not seeing full-throated denials. This one looks a little different to me. - Yeah, look, salary cap circumvention, theoretically has 29 victims, right, 29 teams. It's, but if we look back and, you know, win a lot of this stuff, it's perceived to happen, what the benefit for the clippers was is the steal them away from Toronto. They would be, to me, the biggest victim of what happened and what is the ironic is right now they, you know, again, they did it to themselves, to it, to it, to agree, initially agreeing to this co-I trade, but they are on the back side of this, like, circular situation, the victim again. But is it your understanding? It, I mean, I believe Adam Silver even kind of said this at his most recent press conference set. Like, Toronto is the one that have held this trade up, right? If Toronto wanted to go through and just say, "Hey, we'll just eat whatever punishments potentially come." They, like, the trade could be executed at this point, right? It's all turned out. - Yes, Adam Silver, I was at the press conference in Las Vegas. Adam Silver said those words, essentially, that there was not the league stopping the trade. It was, it was by the teams. And I assume he didn't say Toronto, but I mean, I think Toronto would be the one to do that. - So, you know, you have the, the side situation here where eventually the league is going to have to dull out punishment. Obviously, there's so much, like, just like legal twists in terms of probably still, you know, a ton to go. But my interest level is still on this, you know, held up trade. How it in some ways can is holding up business this summer. Obviously, players, careers, right? Brandon Ingram, Grady Dick, for example, Kauai, obviously. Do you, is there a point as this unfolds? Toronto just pulls out? And then, you know, that changes this summer. That change, you know, do they go try to do something else? - In all honesty, like, in terms of like, you know, there's certain people who want the book thrown at the clippers. They want the clippers to be held accountable on all this. Let me just say, the clippers full-throated denials, both publicly and privately, have been so strong. And I'm not, I mean, I'm talking about on a personal level, you know, like, with the highest levels of the clippers, to my face. You know, it was, let's put this way. I mean, I could never be on a jury because I know too many people. But if I was on a jury, their denials were so strong. And not just like, you know, saying, we didn't do it. And then, you know, saying it with, you know, with a pleading look in their face. But they're, you know, you know, the sort of the case that they laid out and all this stuff. - Like, evidentiary case? - Like, I mean, you know, not formally, but like informally, like, you know, I mean, I go to a lot of clipper games, you know? And I'm not asking questions about it every day. But, you know, over the course of the nine, ten months, I, I, I, you know, I look these people in their eye. And Balmer denied it like in letters to judges. Like, it was a extraordinarily fierce denial on this, on this aspiration stuff. And, look, I don't, I don't even know how, I mean, Pablo's reporting has, I mean, he's wanna pull a surprise on this. And Pablo's reporting is routinely been largely proven correct. So like, I don't know what the source is that said he had a contract, you know? That's obviously key. Did he get money from Dronex? But, Slater, if this is accurate, like, the clipper side of it is devastating, okay? So that's just, but that's, let's put that aside for right now. - Yeah, Toronto side is what I'm wanting. - Yes, for the actual business of the NBA, for the 26, 27 season, this is not just a clipper issue. Last year was a clipper issue. Now it is no longer just a clipper issue. Or the Kauai Leonard is on the wrappers or not, has a huge circumstantial fallout in the Eastern Conference. And then obviously, like, you know, Demarder Rosen has held up to a certain extent, for example, and, you know, some other players. But, you know, you know, James Harden has not done his business with the Cavs 'cause they're waving on things. - Peyton Watson, Benedict Mathurin is an important clipper. - Yeah, there's a series of things here. But even beyond the free agent log, Jam. Just, I don't, the wrappers have been building their team or Juan Kauai. You know, and they've been ready to extend his contract. Brandon Ingram has been ready to be a clipper. do you think Brandon Hinger is in the headspace to go back and be a raptor at this point? Like, the other stuff's going to play out, like, you know, it's the, and I'm back, so Holmes is reported that this could, this investigation could play out well into the season. And I don't know how this changes it, but. Theoretically, you could say, hey, like, the deadline for the raptor to the side, yes or no, probably to them, you know, is the day before training camp, but also, yeah, as you laid out, if they're ultimately verdict is like, hey, we can't get into business with Kauai right now. Sure, you could bring Brandon Hinger back ready to like crazy or things have happened in the league, but also maybe you do want to pivot to something else. Maybe you do want to dangle Brandon Hinger him out there, go after a different guy's, you know, again, I did a king story this week, for example, they have, they, at the deadline, really sniffed around onto monosabonus, not saying that they're going to necessarily revive that exact, you know, conversation, but if you are the raptors, like, maybe you do want to do the raptors, you got to be, you got to be recalling your people from their summer vacations. I mean, maybe not actually, but you're having, you're having contingency plans now. And you know, I don't know when the raptors found this out, you know, the raptors, you know, one of the things that came out of the Adam Silver Press conference was that the league was getting regular updates on the investigation. Like he had to be kind of pulled there, but he, he, he, he finally revealed the league was not in the dark. And I do not believe, I'm going to, I want to be careful about this because of aggregation. I do not believe that Pablo's story was the first time that the league had heard about Dectronics. I'll say something else. And this is a little bit more circumstance or whatever. Like the warriors were really like into the Kawaii Liner trade idea at the trade deadline, look less February. They were less into that idea this summer. And I, you know, again, part of it is like the, you know, Kawaii extension and, and, you know, Kawaii clearly, and a lot of ways wanted to direct themselves to Toronto, right? I think we would have both agreed that that was part of, of the trade, you know, complexities, but also like, you know, I think it started to be sniffing around the league of this idea of like, maybe there was punishment heading Kawaii's away. And I think that might have, you know, warded off some suitors. Yes, but, you know, multiple teams talked to the league office. The league office said they wouldn't stop a trade in June. And then they went ahead with the deal. And, you know, the reason the league is, is being very careful here is that they're still not over the fallout from the Terry Rose year situation. Now to remind you of that, Terry Rose year was investigated by the league. The investigation was never public. They did not find wrongdoing. And then the hornets traded into Miami and the heat were in the dark. They didn't know about the investigation. They didn't know that they were acquiring a player who was potentially under investigation from the federal government. And, you know, they traded a first job pick form. And, you know, they lost him for this whole last year. And then they, you know, they're still out the pick. The pick hasn't even conveyed yet. Now, the heat have moved on. They traded for you honest, you know, they've moved on. But the heat were, you know, they had a case that they were highly wronged. And so the league is obviously going to be careful about this no matter what, but especially coming off of the Rose year situation where that did not go well. I'm not going to assign blamed anything. Let's just say that did not go well. And so the league, I think, was way more out there with the Kawaii thing warning the raptors and any other team who might have had interesting Kawaii. And, you know, so I put it this way. To get back to what you said, I absolutely believe that the raptors have got to be considering what their other, what their alternatives are at this point. And so we will see about that. Okay, we did have some MBA business since we last got together contractual business. And that was Dylan Brooks agreeing to a three year 73 million dollar contract extension with the Phoenix sons. Dylan had a terrific year in his first year in Phoenix. They, you know, maybe I don't know if they would say they overachieved, but they achieved more than a lot of people thought that they would. And he had one year and 21 million left on his deal. And so he adds three years starting at 22.5 million in 2728. So the new money doesn't begin for a year. Now, Miles, so I would say something about Phoenix. First off, later, the value of this contract, you know, the average salary here is about 24 and a half million. It's not a bad number. It's a good number for Dylan. He's obviously got to be thrilled and he's earned it. When we do contracts, I always think, can they trade it? So he's now got four years and about 95 million dollars left on his contract. Could they trade it? Yes, would be the actor. That's probably, I mean, he's a culture setter. I think he has shown he improves. Not only obviously does he, you know, bring a level of kind of winning seriousness, but he clearly takes the job very serious. So I got to kill age well. And then, you know, he's his scoring. Well, what did he, I mean, you might not have it up. Yeah, yeah, I did. I mean, his, you know, he was a career like 14-point-a-game score, 13-14-point-a-game score. And I mean, he took way more shots last year. His role was really funky. And there are situations where he's trying to break guys down off the dribble. And it's just like, it doesn't look like your, you know, number two score on a team. Yeah, well, he was. Yeah, he averaged 20 points a game last year, you know, he's 20-point-a-game score. Fringe all defense. I think it was a fringe all start. Remember, there was like real all-star case for him last year. Yeah, yeah. 24 is like, what's that? No, I'm okay. But the average value is fine. It's more about the years. I'm not going to spend much time analyzing it, you know, good for any year. I'm just looking at the sun's books. And so the expectation is that they're going to eventually extend Miles Bridges. They traded for Miles Bridges this summer. We call Phoenix West Lansing. You know, Bridges has one year, 23 million left on his contract. It doesn't appear he's going to extend this summer. He has to wait. I think he's got to wait six months. We could use Bobby Marx to help us with that. But he's substantially eligible right now. I take that back. But this is kind of like the the Shoms report the other day of Anthony Davis is going to wait into the season. Almost nobody wants to wait into the season. You typically want your deal done. But I think eventually there's a very good chance that Miles Bridges is going to get extended is my point. And so if you look at the sun's books looking at the 27 28 season after this upcoming year, you're you've Devin Booker. It's 61 million. Jalen Green has a player option at 36 million. Maybe he does a new deal and replaces that number. But for now, I'm going to put 36 million. So that's, you know, that's 97 million for those two players. I can't wait for one of the names. You're going to mention coming up that is on the books and also a free agent right now. You got Dylan Brooks at 22.5. So that's, you know, 120 million for those three players and whatever Bridges signs for and I doubt it'll be for a pay cut. You know, so between those four players, you're looking at probably going to be in the neighborhood of, you know, 150 million for those four players. And then of course, the Bradley Biel 19.3 million for years into the future. So, so what four more seasons of that? Is that right? Yes. The answer is yes. So what you're basically looking at with Phoenix is the quintet because it is what it is. Booker Jalen Green, Miles Bridges, Dylan Brooks, and Bradley Biel, you're looking at just south of, you know, 175 million. I like what the Suns have done. Like, you know, obviously, George Not had a great first year. Brian Gregory, their GM has, you know, did a really nice job. Colin Gillespie, they signed to a nice extension this summer. A lot of people like that. You know, they signed Mark Williams to a reasonable extension, short deal. It wasn't out of line below the middle level. They signed Jordan Goodwin to a long-term deal. A lot of the league like that. Those are all nice, nice singles. You know, come on. Malieu Watch looked great in summer league. You know, that's what you want to see from your second year player. You want to see him dominate. He looked good. Like, those are all things that if you're a Suns fan that you are like, you know, this is really good. You know, they got Luke Knard at a really nice number two years and 12 million. I think the second year's a player option. But you know, getting conared for six minutes. These are all moves that I really like, that I'm like, you know, Phoenix is on the right track. But then I look at that top of that line of that salary structure. And I look at the rest of the West later, I'm just like, is that? Are you happy with your 170 million dollars a year? Well, you know, and you know, all the stuff about the apron is everything. But like, you know, what do you think that the ceiling of that, that's your expectation. All right. Because I think you look, they boxed them into a degree of this team that was like kind of feel good story last year. It was, you know, there was a bump off how miserable the prior couple seasons were, right? And it was just like, oh, they're playing hard. The local fans like them. As long as your expectations are like, that is okay for the next few years, right? Like kind of that play in bracket range. Maybe you can surprise you get into the first round as they did last year. You're okay. Right. They got swept by the thunder. Obviously, they would have loved to take a gambler too often. But if like, do you think internally, there's this idea of like, okay, now a step forward this year. Now we get into the second round. Because that is where I'm with you. Like, where is that upside with this core? I don't, I don't see it. So anyway, and I would just say like, again, this is not a CNBC podcast, but Mattishpia, you know, I like Mattishpia. He's been on the podcast. You know, I think he's, he's a type of owner. I think you want because he's aggressive, you know, maybe not with his decision making in certain cases, but you want to know and who's putting money in the team. You know, he's really put a lot of money into the mercury, built them a new practice facility. And his decision, you know, the process that they did to get to Jordan, you know, they went through a very long process to get George to Jordan, not like that. Like, they obviously made a good choice there. Like, I could go on and on, you know, qualifying this. But Mattishpia's mortgage business is in bad shape. He is company reported a $500 million loss in their last quarter in a stock plunge 50% last week. And, you know, I am not in the mortgage business, you know, there's a hundred different things that I that I probably don't understand. But I will just say that in the last 12 months, his stock price is down 70% and his personal net worth is down, you know, according to Forbes, $3 billion in that timeframe. So, you know, just keep that in mind that, you know, I mean, look, he's still very wealthy. We're not staying awake tonight worrying about whether Matt's going to make his mortgage payment, his own mortgage payment. But, you know, that is something to be aware of. But I'm sure if you're a son's fan, you are aware of that, that he had this business, his business is struggling. And so, you know, when you have five players on your books making that much money, you're very likely going to have to be a luxury taxpayer and the owner's personal finances are struggling. Yeah. And I mean, we'll see how that impacts personnel decision making. But as you mentioned, I mean, like, you know, at the same time, they are committing long-term money. So. Well, the question I would have to Matt, and he probably would answer this if I asked him in all honesty, and he probably would say that they would do it anyway. So, you know, I don't know for sure, but last summer, they made a decision to wave in a stretch bill. And that decision probably contributed not because Brad was an issue in the locker room or whatever, but that moving on from Bradley helped, I think, their, their have a step forward season. What he have committed to waving a hundred million dollar in dead money if he had lost, you know, multiple millions, multiple billions of net worth the same summer. Maybe he would. I will say didn't, didn't, didn't that particular wave and stretch save an outrageous amount of like tax penalty money in the immediate. You know what? You are, you are correct. Yeah. I remember Bobby had like a specific number that was like, I popping a little bit like a thunder this summer, right? Every trade that thundermade would be like, well, it actually saved, you know, X amount of million. I do remember that was part of the, you know, the, I guess the appeal of the of the billway was just pure liquid finance. Well, speaking of dealing with finances more who've collected podcast after this. Peyton Watson is a still an unrestricted or a still restricted creation. He's out there. There's all these, you know, I would just say in general. And I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what's going to happen. But I'm seeing a lot of people talk about sign and trade situations. Okay. And I don't think people are seeing the full picture. And maybe I'm not seeing it correctly. Maybe the people that I'm talking to don't see it correctly either. But for example, I keep seeing Jonathan Kuminga sign and trades. My friends, the Atlanta hawks are four million dollars below the luxury tax. If they send Jonathan Kuminga somewhere that sends a player back, it sends them into the tax. It's got to be a very attractive trade for them to go into the tax. Okay. Because it's not just a matter whether the trade works. It's a matter of whether the hawks want to go into the tax to help Jonathan Kuminga. Okay. I see the same thing about the Milwaukee Bucks. Because the Milwaukee Bucks, you know, they've been tied to Kuminga. They've been tied to Peyton Watson, for example. And people point out that they have this really big trade exception. I think it's a $25 million trade exception that they have from the Yannis-Attenham Coompo trade. And you absolutely can use a trade exception to acquire a player. And so that's one of the things they say. Well, if they don't have to send the Bucks don't have to send any money back, you know, if they were to say, trade sign and trade for Jonathan Kuminga. That is true. Absolutely correct. But the Bucks themselves are right up against the luxury tax. They're $10 million below the luxury tax. And they're $14 million below the first apron, which is where they're hard capped. They can't spend more than $14 million. Also, it should be mentioned heading towards a year where it wouldn't make a ton of, like, of course, not fence for them. Of course, not sky into the tax. I'm just, and I understand we're in the dead part of the season and people are filling their, their spacing with like this. But I'm seeing like, oh, the Bucks are going to get this deal done. It's going to be great. I'm just like my friends, my good friends. I love you all in the, in the media. The Bucks have $10 million below the tax. They're not going into the tax. I mean, with all due respect, I understand Peyton Watson's a good player. It's not, it's not an evaluation on him. But acquiring Peyton Watson does not make the Bucks like a second round playoff team, okay, which is how you're going into the tax. So if there's a trade that makes sense where the Bucks offload some money and then can avoid the tax and get these players, okay, show me the trade. Now, I'll be very happy to entertain it. That could happen. This is probably where you'd say, third teams could be super relevant, you know, that can go because again, I should, what you're probably getting to is like, what Denver can't, isn't you taking back a bunch of money? Exactly. So he's, so exactly. Yeah. So what we're seeing here is Denver is $21 million over the luxury tax. They're, they're 14 million into the second apron. And they're a repeater team. They're paying 187 million so they're starting five next year. Just they're starting five, you know, I'm talking. I just can't see it happening. And so, you know, Watson is in a situation where he's not, you know, I mean, the teams with space have not offered him, at least to this point, yet an offer sheet. And he's in this misery of restricted free agency. And it's unfortunate for him, but the nuggets are just, you know, they hold the cards at this point. And, you know, Slater, like, that's just the truth. They may hold the cards, but it's not like a super appealing hand considering, like, you know, their financial constraints and their relationship with Peyton Watson, which, you know, we'll see where that necessarily goes. Like I agree, obviously, like, restrictive rates. He's increasingly challenging to the restrictive for agents, but like, Denver is in a bind right now, right? I mean, that's why the Spencer Jones offer sheet, well, small in it, you know, to a degree was a very interesting offer sheet from a rival, the Thunder, because it just further complicated Denver, trying to maneuver in the second apron world with, you know, all these finances in again, as we both know, like the Yokech non-extension for reasons that he has quieted down, right? He still plans to be in Denver for his career, but like, this isn't necessarily the time to be making soury-slashing moves as you're still long-term trying to convince your franchise player to be there, but also like, it's, like you said, like, I wouldn't necessarily want to be Peyton Watson in this situation, but I don't think like Denver's sitting there like, man, what a, what a beautiful spot we're in. Right. Well, the one scenario, scenario that has happened that is, somewhat interesting has been floated. And I don't know who to give the proper credit to. I've been overseas. I'm not trying to, to, to screw somebody over and steal them. I, I apologize, whatever, whatever. Um, is the idea that they could sign and trade them to Denver. I'm sorry to Milwaukee and get back high Mayhackas. Now, whether that's something that's realistic or not, high mayhackas makes $6 million in the last year was rookie deal. Um, again, depending on what Peyton was signed for Milwaukee still has a potential tax problem, but at least that's the kind of thing where I could not reject it out of hand because getting a multi-positional player who, you know, who could play like Kai Mayhackas for $6 million is attractive to Denver. But it's also potentially attractive to Denver to just force, um, Watson to take his, is a qualifying offer, which I think is $7 million. Um, because as upsetting as it would be for Watson to have to take that, considering where the nuggets are, getting him for $7 million would be an incredible value. Um, and that's the thing that's so difficult about this is, sure, Denver would like to get him into a contract to make everybody happy, but Denver could get him in a contract and have him in a contract year for that amount of money. And that'd be the worst case scenario. Yeah, but that he's, you know, he has the implicit notary essentially in that scenario. Um, and I assume the, you know, anytime, it gets to it to a qualifying offer stage, the relationship is, is relatively kind of like tattered. I agree. Most of the time, it's, it's over. Yeah. And look, I was, I covered the nuggets, Denver was first round series and, you know, they kept calling him day-to-day, day-to-day, but, you know, maybe he'll play at some point in the series and never did. And you know, part of the, the belief was, you know, this looming restrictive free agency, you know, you had Aaron Gordon at the time dragging himself onto the floor, dealing with the calf strain and Watson was never able to get out there. So I just, you know, leading into this free agency, restrictive free agency that, you know, will just generate natural sour feeling. So you took your right to a degree where like, wow, Pete Watson on that small number, considering their financial situation could help for the immediate, but like, you know, as Denver tries to guide, you know, Yokech into this later stage of his prime, I don't think that's a good result for them in Jack. The other problem is, is because Watson's peak form last year was for a relatively small window. Yes. The unknown, combined with the financial, I think, you know, Denver is dealing with a difficult hand here, is what I'm saying. But I would just say, for everybody who is super engaged in this, because I know that there's a core amount of, and look, you have to be a core fan, be listening to the hoop collective in mid-August. Like, we appreciate you. And that's why we're talking about this. When you consider what's on Watson's plate, you have to consider the salary, the overall salary positions of the teams that could trade for them. Like, you know, for example, Cleveland has been attached to him. Cleveland is trying like crazy to stay out of the second apron. That's part of what's going on with Harden right now. It's one of the reasons he hasn't signed. And so, the sign in trades, you know, situation of what it would imply for Cleveland, what they can do for Harden, you have to look at the whole 360 degrees. And that's one of the reasons why Watson isn't held right now. So, to be continued, and, you know, I have seen lots of restricted free agencies drag out. I have not seen too many of them get done in August. Typically, with the restricted free agent, you come to an agreement within the first couple days of free agency, or at least you have a framework, or you do it at the buzzer. Stalemates, you know, not every time. There are examples of deals that got done in August. But most of the time, August, everybody goes on vacation, doesn't call anybody back. Yeah, and talk about the buzzer. I dealt with one last year that, that bled into camp, right? Remember the, and it affected Al Hoerford and DeAnthony Melton. I'm obviously talking about the comigo situation last year. They couldn't go to media day, they couldn't attend the first day of practice. And I'm not, you know, we'll see if, if this Watson situation heads towards that or Jalen Durant is very interesting to watch, right? You know, when, when does that? I don't think a sign in trades really on the tail for Jalen Durant, at least I haven't heard of it yet. So Detroit has like, you know, nixed that idea completely. The King, for example, would it would have, and would remain very interested in Jalen Durant and a sign in trade scenario. But Detroit is just not, I think if Detroit showed a wilderness to a sign in trade for Jalen Durant, there'd be a number of teams calling that they're just not very true. But anyway, all right, before we go, Slater, Don Nelson passed away. This, we're doing this on Sunday. Don Nelson passed away. 86 years old. Many people are going to have many things to say about Don Nelson. We're not going to say all of it here. I was supposed to, was supposed to have McMahon this podcast, but I literally got the day wrong. Like literally got the day wrong because McMahon is at a family event in the South Pacific. And I told him that this podcast was happening on Monday morning. It was actually on Sunday morning. And so maybe we'll hear from McMahon later this week on Don Nelson, a guy he covered. But Don Nelson is a Hall of Famer and it changed the game in many ways. And Slater for the people in the Bay Area. Yeah. The seeds of the warriors dynasty were planted by Don Nelson. And, you know, Larry Riley and the other folks who started drafting those. We're talking about Steph Curry. You're talking about the Steph Curry, Joe Affleur, Don Nelson, you know, look, Steph Curry did not want to go to the warriors. The Phoenix Suns at the time were even trying to execute a trade through their GM Steve Kerr to get. Yeah, I just heard a story last week. Yeah. Yeah. But Don Nelson saw something in step to the point. Don Nelson has been quoted in the aftermath of saying he thought Steph was the second best prospect in that draft. Would it take him Blake Griffin one, but would it take a Steph Curry to push the warriors as Steph even had a quote today, you know, after his passing about, you know, Don Nelson's importance in bringing Steph Curry to the warrior. So like beyond seeds of a dynasty, right? I mean, that is planting the dynasty in a lot of way. Well, there's so many people that are going to tell stories about him, his former players. The late Paul Silas, who was his teammate with the Celtics, told me some stories about Don Nelson. And I mean, this guy was, you know, he was a part. He lived hard. He partied. He had great relationships with the players, you know, he, you know, Dirk Navitsky. He was obviously crucial, you know, he didn't win the championship for the Mavericks, but he more than planted the seeds there. He he told the fields, you know, he he was he had a big part of that championship, big part of the foundation of the warriors. But he was honored during the 2025 finals. The Coaches Association every year honors a veteran coach. And he was honored and he came to Oklahoma City and had a press conference and held court for 30, 40 minutes. And it was one of the most enjoyable times I had all of 2025 season, 2425 season. And he was, I don't remember the exact numbers. So don't hold me to the exact numbers, but you're going to say he hadn't been state side in about seven years. Yeah. And he hadn't, he said he hadn't had closed healed. He had not a shoes with a heel with a closed shoe since before COVID. Like he was wearing dress shoes because he was being honored. He said, you know, I haven't, I haven't anything on, but sandals or flip flops in five years. Yeah. I mean, for the people that don't know, lived in Hawaii, a post retirement, I was in two, I was in that press conference, which as you mentioned was was was enjoyable. He had the whole room cracking up. But also, oh my god, we could have gone on for hours. I think it was the last time he had been state side was several years prior back at Oracle. They did something with like Stephen Jackson and Baron Davis and kind of honoring those themes that he came over. He did another press conference where he had, you know, Stephen Jackson in that whole room, cracking up, talking about his life and in Hawaii and some of his activities in Hawaii. Yeah. I mean, he was a legendary pot smoker. Although I think he said he stopped smoking in Oklahoma City. He had, I don't know what he said that, but he had he had moved on from it. But 86 years old lived an incredible life. There will be many tributes in the coming days. We can't do it all here, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say it. I mean, I remember one of the one of my memories was right near the end of his coaching time with Golden State. When there was a game in Cleveland, like in mid January mid December, January was freezing outside and he held shoot around and I came to shoot around and I remember he had this plastic bag full of cigars. Yeah, that in one hand in another hand, he had a cigar holder with three space for three cigars and he shoot around was over and the guys were still shooting and in fact, Stephen Jackson had just been traded for. I think it was his first game as a warrior that night and that's why I went to shoot around and they were like literally going over the offense with them, but I've teaching them the plays. for that night. And Nelly was like looking through each cigar and smelling it and deciding, "No, that's no good." He had like 10 in his plastic bag. He's like, "Oh, that's a good one. Put that in the holder." And he goes through a couple more. No, no, no. Okay. When he had three good ones and he closed off his three cigar holder. He put it in his pocket and he turned around and he goes, "Bus is leaving." He's like, "He had his afternoon. He had his cigars for the afternoon. He was going back to the hotel." And so, yeah. That's how Nelly rolled at the end. Well, last thing I'll say about him. Steve Kerr won his 600th game coaching this past year. I remember doing that story and he became only the second person ever. Steve Kerr, who had 600 wins as a coach and 600 wins as a player. And it's, you know, it all surprised me. The other guy who had done it was Don Nelson. And, you know, I think we're talking about a lot of like the management and coaching side and some of the decision making over the last several decades that has led to, over talking about like he was a really good player too. 600 Steve Kerr's had an incredible. He's at Hall of Hand coaching for a 600. Nelson had 1300. Yeah. That's exactly. So it's the threshold of 600 as a player and coach, but yeah, 13. And one, one hand-fledged championships with the Celtics. Yeah. As a player. Rest in peace, Nelly. All right. Thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Slater. Thank you to the rest of our producers. Thank you for watching with some hoop collective. We'll be back later this week. See if we can get McMahon on the right day. That was my fault. Talk to you later.