What is democratic socialism?

Democratic Socialism is having a moment, but if you ask 10 politicians what it means, you might get 10 different answers. Today on the pod, Democratic Socialism 101. What is it? What is the DSA? And how are they influencing the political landscape ahead of this fall's midterms? It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamer Keet. I cover politics. I'm Ashley Lopez. I also cover politics. And I'm Elena Moore. I also also cover politics. And that is the only way to say that. Okay, let's start with some basics. Elena, what is Democratic Socialism? Okay, so I mean like most political things, it depends on who you ask, but I guess like 500 foot view, Democratic Socialism is a political philosophy. Economically, it argues capitalism needs to be reformed or just like replaced. And the way that that could happen kind of varies socially, you know, a lot of the core principles are around this need for a strong social safety net. Another thing to underscore is like the word Democratic in there. You know, this is a philosophy that is trying to, you know, make change within the current political system, which is a democracy. I think that a lot of people and maybe especially some politicians conflate socialism with communism. Those are different things. Yeah, they're different things. And the reason they're doing that is mostly for political purposes. Communisms in America still packs quite a punch. It is a very anti-American sort of system because this is a capitalist country and social democracy or socialism, which would move the country further away from straight up capitalism and provide people more of a safety net. That sort of thing, a more broader welfare policy and more, let's say like publicly owned utilities and services. Those are two different things. But the reason why Republicans are saying communism is that socialism isn't as scary to a lot of people than they were before. Definitely not in the Democratic base. I recently observed, you know, about a dozen swing voters in Nevada. They said that they're not writing off socialists, you know, if they hear that a candidate is socialist, that does not automatically mean they're going to dismiss them because in their view, right now what socialism offers, which is more of an economic safety net, sounds really good to them right now because people feel really economically pinched. So the timing of this is everything. It's like this is a time when people are really feeling beaten down by this economy. It's been years since the pandemic. People are still feeling really bad. And then, you know, there is a conversation happening now about whether the government should be doing more to solve those problems for you. And I do want to talk about the distinction between democratic socialism, a political philosophy and the democratic socialist of America, a group, the DSA, as you said, it's not a political party in the way that Democrats are Republicans or Greens or libertarians are. So how does the DSA work as an entity? Right. So it started actually in the 1980s and it is a straight up political advocacy organization and they have a bunch of chapters. So that's why it also gets kind of like, it looks like a party, but it's not a party because you know, like democratic party has like state party and you know, city chapters, but that's not what this is. I, it took me a while to come to a good, like, analogy for this, but it's actually more like the heritage foundation than it is like the democratic or Republican party. And it actually functions. They don't have a platform. Really, if you go on their website, it doesn't say it's a platform. It is a group of issues that they work on. And so the democratic socialist of America started off as like, you know, in the 80s as like, it merged two socialist groups and it was mostly a bunch of academics and like, you know, philosophy folks, like it was very small. It was like a couple thousand people and things really changed in the past 10 years when the group endorsed Bernie Sanders for president in 2016. And now we're off to the races. It is like a whole different thing. It has a bunch of different chapters that very top down. It's kind of bottom up. It functions like an advocacy group, which is like you would see all over the political spectrum. It also kind of reminds me of like, again, we're talking, you know, the heritage foundation is like a right wing organization, drastically different policies. So obviously that's not the comparison, but infrastructure wise, I found that really helpful, Ashley, to think of it like that. Another one that comes to mind is like kind of like turning point action, you know, the organization that empowers young conservatives to get involved in politics. And I think that that is a better way to kind of compare because, you know, the groups like that have worked with campaigns and support campaigns. And that's kind of where we are seeing the DSA's grassroots focus really come into play and uplift some of these, you know, left leaning challengers that have been successful this cycle. The DSA went through a process and came up with platform probably isn't the right word, but a list of things that they stand for. What do they stand for? I mean, it's a lot of stuff that they're working on. If it's in terms of an issues list, it's a lot for one organization, but there are a couple buckets here. I would say like the economic populism side of stuff is probably the stuff you're going to hear the most of and probably has the most legs in reality, right, in our political world. So things like paid family leave, 32-hour workweek is a version of that. That's a little more out of the mainstream, a living minimum wage, more popular, free public education from pre-K to college, canceling student debt, stuff like that. And then there's, of course, free universal health care or Medicare for all, which is the most popular vehicle for that. I think they're more open to whatever a single-payer health care system would look like. This is just the one that most candidates are running on because it's the most economically viable. There's already existing programs building something from the ground up is a little harder. But then there are some pretty non-mainstream ideas too. Abolishing ice, that idea's popularity, it's up and down, but right now it's definitely no party is embracing this fully. Abolishing the Senate is probably the one that you hear the most. It's like what? It's a little bit out of the mainstream, but it is a part of their larger project to make America's democracy more small-de-democratic, right? Like more representative because the Senate is largely considered the sort of least representative because it gives outsized minority power to more rural state. So there's a bunch of stuff in there, but those are probably the big ones. And abolishing the police in prisons. Sure. Those are also much more out of the mainstream, not as popular. Definitely stuff in the law and order category is where they get the most sort of pushback because there's just not as much buy-in. Yeah, and we've seen candidates this cycle, which I'm sure we'll talk more about, really emphasize the first part of what Ashley was talking about, those economic populist ideas, which really are, I think it's fair to say, at the core of the DSA movement, and they have the receipts to back that up. That's always kind of been the core message is the working man. And I think that obviously there are some candidates this cycle that have not shied away from some of those issues that are more polarizing. I think about like Daria Lisa Avila Chivalier, who pulled off an upset win in New York City and is a democratic socialist. She's faced criticism for past comments. She's made kind of in line with some of those more, you know, controversial policies that the DSA supports. I'm thinking, you know, abolishing the police, prisons, borders, she even talks about abolishing borders. And so that is a narrative that that is something that, you know, Republicans have really seized onto in their opposition. But then there are other candidates who are really grounding their bid, which is aligned with the DSA in that economic populism. And that's what they say, their connection is to the DSA. Yeah, and even within the DSA, they they have like a spectrum of views, right? And so this is like, it is not super cohesive right now. It is like, it has changed a lot in just 10 years, which is not a lot of time. And so I actually talked to Ashik Sadiq, he's the national co-chair of the democratic socialists of America. And I asked him about like why they're taking this sort of mishmash of ideas and running in democratic primaries like what they get out of that. Our electoral work, mostly we are running people as as Democrats and democratic primaries. And that that is our strategy. So there's a broad spectrum of what our members think from the goal being to eventually realign the democratic party to perhaps someday develop an independent party, but we we recognize that in the United States, there just is a two party system. It's really deeply set in structurally. I do think that's a really interesting way of thinking about the DSA. They have like the set of goals and an order to get, you know, any sort of momentum realistically for the set of goals in American politics. They kind of have to choose a party. And obviously the democratic party is closer to them politically, but for now, you know, the way to do things is to run in democratic primaries. Yeah, that I think that tape is so interesting because it also kind of says the quiet part out loud and gets back to this larger question that we keep going back to this whole cycle, which is like what is the Democrats future? Because I think you hear it there. The DSA is trying to find an avenue for change within the current structure, but they're not rolling out even greater change. And I think that gets back to like the democratic party is at a crossroads ideologically of trying to figure out what they're going to embrace, what leaders they're going to amplify. And part of why the DSA is getting so much attention is they are choosing a lane. And I guess we'll we'll just have to see if people follow that. - Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll have more in a moment. - Welcome back. And Elena, we're at the end of the primary season. - Time flies so close. - So close. And we've seen DSA affiliated candidates have more success than ever this year. What's the scorecard? - Yeah, I mean, I'll focus on the federal races, but there's a handful of people who have won that are either endorsed by the DSA or call themselves Democratic Socialists. We'll start with New York City, which probably got some of the most attention where two, Democratic Socialists, one in competitive Democratic primaries in the city. I'm talking about who we mentioned earlier, Daria Lisa Avilich Valier, who won in Upper Manhattan, parts of the Bronx, and Claire Valdez, who won in parts of Brooklyn and Queens. These are both Democratic Socialists. They had the backing of the city's mayor, he's our own mom Donnie, who is also part of DSA, and really took a big swing early in his tenure by, you know, stomping for these people, given it was a break with the Democratic establishment. And then, you know, we go across the country to actually we'll stay more local first. And then if you look at Pennsylvania, where Chris Rab came out on top in a crowded primary field for that Philadelphia-based seat, he's DSA. Now let's travel across the country, hopefully a direct flight to Denver, where Malat Kuros pulled off an upset win over in Michigan, Donovan McKinney challenged a sitting Democrat and won, and most recently in Florida, Angie Nixon, won the Democratic primary for Senate there. And of course, that's a race we're all going to be watching very closely because unlike those house races, which are solid Democratic districts, you know, kind of the hard part is done, Nixon has a tough battle ahead of her in a statewide race. - Yeah, and Ashley, I wanted to ask you about that because she is not in a safe blue seat. She is in Florida, which was going to be a reach for any Democrat, and there are real questions about whether her DSA affiliation may hurt her in that race. How is she talking about it? - Yeah, you know, so I actually talked to her this morning about this. Mostly I wanted to get a sense of like why she joined the DSA during her campaign, and I should say, she joined a couple of groups during her primary campaign. So working families, which is also a left minority party, and then the DSA, which is, as we mentioned, not a party, but an organization. And I'm going to start with just having her say in her own words, like how she got involved with the DSA. - I met with them because they wanted to meet with me and ask questions about my race, and they asked me what I joined, and I looked up their platform, and the majority of their platform I'm aligned with, and so I signed up. - Yeah, and this is interesting, right? Because even though she joined, she doesn't see herself or describe herself as a socialist, and in fact during her primary runs, she didn't bring up her association to the DSA often. This wasn't a thing that she made part of her campaign. And I do want to focus on that last bit. She says the Democratic brand has a problem, especially when it comes to talking to working class people, which has been a critique of the party for a while now, as the party has gotten a little more white collar, right? She feels like the DSA is just doing a better job of not just talking about these issues and coming up with policies that will help working class people, but also they're doing a better job of energizing the base right now in her view, and that polling also shows that, which is the Democratic base is not happy with the establishment leadership. We talked about this a lot on the podcast. So she's walking a tighter rope here, because Florida is not even a swing state anymore. She's getting progressively more Republican, more conservative every election cycle. I feel like what Nixon is saying there is also kind of evocative of this larger strategy that we're seeing candidates on the left use this cycle, which is the Democratic Socialists have this powerful organizing wing in some places, obviously bigger some places than others, but it seems like candidates are trying to use this movement to their advantage, this grassroots interest and just popularity, which is something that the Democrats haven't had at that scale in a while, but I do think there are aspects of the DSA message that go way outside the DSA movement, and I think that the Venn diagram between economic populism and Democratic socialism for some candidates right now, there's a lot of overlap there, and I think people are hurting economically, and they're tired of the current state of politics. And so for some, that means capitalizing on this grassroots DSA movement. For others, the label has too much of a weight, but those issues remain true. And I talked to Claire Valdez about that shortly after she pulled off her upset win in New York City, and here's how she described the appeal to the DSA. - People are coming to our vision, not just because Democratic Socialists are being elected and are governing effectively and delivering on the things that we said that we would, but because people are really fed up with the status quo. - So yeah, you hear that there, that fed up with the status quo. People are talking about that and are not DSA backed candidates. So candidates seem to be also focused on issues without that label. - Yeah, this is an organization that is for the working person. This is, you know, they wanna reach the working class. Are they actually breaking through with the working class voters that Democrats have lost over the last decade or more? - Right, yeah, no, I think that's the big question is like, who is actually feeding into this message? Are they speaking to the person that maybe was once energized by that like new deal type of Democratic politics? I don't know, I do know that there are factions of the Democratic Coalition that the party lost in 2024 that do entertain this movement to a greater degree. I think a lot about young voters, which can matter a lot on the margins, which is different than the larger working class message to be completely clear. But young voters are part of that group that didn't show up for Democrats at the level that they needed in 2024. And we know that they have interest and are less hesitant of the label of Democratic socialists compared to say seniors, you know, obviously the most reliable group showing up to the polls. So I think it remains to be seen what the Coalition of DSA looks like, but I do think it's interesting that we are seeing increased interest among at least some of the Coalition that Democrats lost. I mean, we won't have a real answer to this until after November, right? Like because most of this has been fought out in primaries and primaries are your ideological base. It is not like these low propensity voters who sometimes check in during midterm, sometimes don't vote. So we will see, we'll have a better picture in November. But as of right now, it is an open question. And I think that's where the conflict is happening in the party right now because I think each side knows how this is going to play out and really no one does. Let's get to the general election because we're basically here. You know, does the label of Democratic Socialist do you think does it matter to voters like to a general election voter? Is it a positive or a negative to voters who are telling us that what they care about most in this election is the cost of living and affordability? Well, I think for the last few elections that I've covered, I've seen firsthand that voters are the most fired up about issues and not parties. So I think in that sense, there are people who, if what they are showing up to vote on and what they are passionate about is a specific set of issues, I don't think that this is going to necessarily tip the scales for them in a negative way. But I do think when this gets back to the messaging component, if you're not following this every day and you're seeing ads painting insert candidate name as extreme or a communist, like those labels do hold weight. And we saw that even going back to 2024, the way that the Trump campaign framed Kamala Harris and painted her as extreme, especially on social issues. I think people who are really passionate about this idea of economic populism, they may already be fairly fed up with the system and open to at least discussing the issues. And I've even heard that among, especially young people, I've heard that among some on the right, they don't like the idea of what they call socialism or even communism, but they do talk about this feeling of not having the American dream that their parents had and feeling distrustful of corporations and that the government isn't supporting them as much as big businesses and the wealthy. And so the issue overlaps are there, whether the labels stop voters from getting on board with a candidate, I think it's a different question. I think it's also worth remembering the label of Democrat and Republican is also not really doing well with voters right now. They're not really big fans of that one either. So I don't know how much this actually matters to voters from the voters I have seen, which is small groups of swing voters here and there. Yeah, they don't care about this. They don't care about someone being called a socialist. That doesn't seem to matter as much as the fact that they can't afford groceries. It really doesn't matter. I could be wrong. We are gonna get a bigger electorate in a couple of months right now, as we've been talking, the people weighing in are smaller chunks of the electorate that are a little more party loyal, a little more engaged. But all this squabbling about what it means to be a democratic socialist in the media, I cannot imagine that that is going to become more salient or important to them as time goes on. Yeah, I mean, two things can be true at the same time. Obviously labels matter and if you're being hit with all of these ads non-stop, like that's a narrative and that can be powerful. At the same time, we know that there are a lot of people who are fed up and looking for change. rejecting the status quo and also are economically hurting and I think for a lot of voters we've heard for years now that they're craving issues and policies over a party loyalty and so I think while labels can really kind of like follow you and and it's hard to shed them I think that you know these issue focuses are really galvanizing a lot of people and so I think that if you're already craving change and something different um I don't think a label is stopping someone yeah let's leave it there for now and please join us again tomorrow I'm Tamer Keith I cover politics I'm Ashley Lopez I also cover politics and I'm Elena Moore I also also cover politics and thank you for listening to the NPR politics podcast