What Happens When You Die? (Pastoral Response) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

You and I, one day, our faith is going to be made sight. When we see Jesus, it's going to be the first time you and I see him physically. It will also be the first time of an infinite eternity to come that we get to see him forever. For an unbeliever, their unbelief is going to be made sight. And it's going to be the first time they see Christ and the last. Well, hey, Live Free Nation, before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our Church Online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in. And experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo. And today, I'm excited because I am here with the one and only, the Epistle Missal, Chad G. Palsy, reloaded on a bonus episode. What's up, dude? What's up, man? You good? I'm good, man. Happy Sunday. Happy Sunday, man. We got services going on right now. Yes, we do. But we got a bonus episode. Do you record? Yes, we do. It's going to be a good episode. Common question people ask. You got your Cuyu sweater. Cuyu sweater. Dude, like, hunting season is in. By the way, it's time for us to go out. It's been like a year. It's been a year since you and I were out there together. We got to get you your first—you haven't ever shot a deer, correct? I've— A buck. You haven't gotten a buck. I don't think I have. Okay, so I'm saying we're going to go back out. But yeah, I wore this in honor of hunting seasons here. It's a bonus. Finally, some cooler weather. We're going to get you out there, get you a hog, get you a buck. It's going to be good. I've only shot a turkey. That's awesome. I've never shot a turkey. Oh, okay. So you've killed something I haven't. So it's great to be out, man. Got my Cuyu on. We're ready to go. And yeah, man, this is going to be a good episode we'll get to in a few minutes. But first, we have something else we think we need to do, right? Well, what is it? I think we need to honor a group of people, man. Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's right. Because this episode is coming out on Veterans Day, man. That's right, man. And we just wanted to take a moment and just honor and thank anyone who has served in our armed forces here in the United States. Man, we have this nation because people are willing to serve and to often lay down their lives for the sake of our freedoms and for our country. And my grandfather was one. My grandfather served during World War II. And just an amazing man. I look up to him. So many amazing men and women who have served. We thought this was coming out on Veterans Day. We want to take a moment up at the beginning and say, hey, thank you for anyone who is serving, but also who has served. Yeah. And I'm sure we get a lot of listeners from Live Free as well. So shout out. Thank you. Hey, today, this is a good episode. Because, one, for people that are joining right now, this is not your normal Monday episode. This is a bonus episode. We're trying to test drive the shorter episodes where we pick one question and we just kind of try to tackle it, go a little deeper. So a couple of things before we start. First of all, I've talked to some people in the lobby. By the way, Paul, we get a lot of people from Live Free coming to Lake Point all the time. Yep. We love that. So if that's you, come visit. We'd love to say hi. Every time I talk to somebody, they're like, hey, Carlos, great to meet you. But where's Paul? But where's Chad G. Paul? And I'm like, hey, good to meet you, too. And so, man, everybody just wants to meet you. Hey, man, it's the same thing. I'm happy to point them in your direction. If they've met me but haven't met you, well, you know what we start doing? We look for you. And the first thing I do and I tell them is look up. Look up. So in other words, if we're in the lobby of one of our campuses, if we're trying to find him, just tell him to look up because they don't realize how tall of a guy you are in person. Well, we get a lot of good feedback. And what I've heard from some people, and we'll see, maybe that was just a few, but they're saying that the juice is worth the squeeze. Yeah, that's what I've heard. So that's encouraging. So we're still test driving these. So let us know if the test drive becomes a permanent drive. So share, like, and comment. That helps us know this is helpful. Also, if you have a recommendation for a future episode or a question, just go ahead and drop it in the comment section on Spotify or YouTube. And because we love to give stuff away, comment hat. And we got some free merch to give away as well. Paul, the question for today's episode is, you ready for it? I'm ready for it. Come on. I'm excited. I'm excited for this one because it's more important than people realize. Yeah. What happens when you die? So here's what we're going to do. We're going to watch a viral video of a church leader at Emmanuel Episcopal Church in Kentucky. This video went viral recently, almost a million views. We're going to respond to what this lady is saying. And then we're going to talk about some pastoral tips in terms of how to engage a conversation with somebody that's asking this question, what happens when you die? We're going to talk about some watchouts. When reading the Bible, there is a biblical way of reading the Bible, and there is an unbiblical way of doing that. We're going to talk about what the Bible actually says about what happens after you die. We got some answers. This is good news. And we're just going to be closing with pastoral thoughts. Yeah, it's such an important question because it's such a personal question. And I've gotten this one quite often in the past. And some people, when they face this question, it's because they are personally facing death or getting near to death. Right. Other times people ask it because, not because they're facing it, but because they're facing death in the sense of it looks like they're going to die, but because they're facing the death of someone close to them who has died. And so there might be moments where someone stands at a gravesite or a funeral of a family member or of a friend. And it's natural, in addition to feeling the grief of their loss, to wonder, well, hey, what is on the other side? What actually happens when we die? So this is a very practical question, and it's a very personal question. That's right. And the good news that we're going to go ahead, a little spoiler alert right here, is that if you're a believer in Jesus, there is good news. There's great news. There's great news. And there is hope. And death does not have to be something that we fear because of what Christ has done for us. So there is a good answer to this, but you kind of gave a hint at it. There is a bad way to answer this question. And do you want to go ahead? Do we want to go ahead and transition to that and show them maybe a bad way to answer this? We have the video. We're going to watch the video first. But let me just give you a little context of the video so we know what we're watching here. So the video we're about to watch, this right here is, the Reverend Ryan Ashley Bloyd Wiseman. And she is, according to her church's website, she is the, quote, priest in charge at Emanuel Episcopal Church in Winchester, Kentucky. Shout out, Kentucky. Pastor Josh's homestead. That's right, man. Let's kick this pig. As a Duke fan, you know, Kentucky and I don't always get along, but it's all good. This church right here is a small affirming Episcopal congregation that emphasizes welcome for LGBTQ plus people and has hosted our planned event. Such as drag shows in its facilities. Not great. Yeah, not great. And you're explaining this now, because in a few minutes, we want to connect this to another thing and understanding how you need to process sometimes what people say like this. Giving you a little context. Yeah. And she will also share a quick story of somebody in her church who asked her the question that we're answering today. So let's go ahead and play it. Let's watch it. I don't know what happens when we die. No one really does. Hi, I'm Ryan, an Episcopal priest in Winchester, Kentucky. And last week or two weeks ago, I was sitting with an older congregant, and that congregant asked me what happens when we die. I had to look this person in the face who is obviously struggling and say, I don't know. And certainty is so valued in our society that it doesn't leave room for those types of things. Those types of questions very often. So I was honored that the question was asked. I was honored that I got to sit and watch the wrestling happening inside of this person and offer my presence as much as I could. But the reality is there's so much about the deep spiritual realities of our lives that the answer is I don't know. Which is where faith comes in, which is such a trope. And there is a reality that regardless of what happens. Trusting in the God whose love goes before us and is behind us and all around us is somehow enough. And so I can't offer anyone on this page certainty about much, I'll be honest. I can offer my interpretation, I can offer my presence, I can offer some of the skills I've learned along the way in years of education and practice of ministry. But most of the time the answer is no. That's a really good question. And I don't know. A couple things here. There's actually just quite a few things here. Let me start by saying this. She said, I don't know what happens when you die. No one really does. Paul, I know somebody that does. Really? Who would that be? Jesus knows. There's one guy that I know for sure he does. And this is literally the whole point of Christianity, which is great news. You know why I know he knows? Yeah. Because Jesus actually died and he beat death and he was resurrected and today he is alive. And because Jesus himself actually says that himself in Revelation chapter one, verse 17, he says, this is great news. Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last. I am the living one. I died. But look, I am alive forever and ever. And I hold the keys of death and the grave. So let's just start by saying, number one, man, it's just not true. That. "Nobody knows what happens when you die." Man, we follow a man who did and is now alive, and so we want to, and his name is Jesus, and we want to learn from him. That's right. That's right. For those who are not watching this via video, you didn't actually see my reaction as she was sharing some of the things, but I got pretty worked up, and honestly, just when I listened to this video, and when I want to say this, this is not, I don't know her personally, it's nothing against her, I don't want to judge her character, but just hearing what she said internally, I was just thinking, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is pastoral malpractice. Now, I do want to give some grace and give the benefit of the doubt, even just some of the things that she said about offering the ministry of presence. That is a common trope. By the way, it is a thing that we offer to people, but that is a common trope that you often hear in seminary, and she looks pretty young, and so I'm going to try to assume the best and hope maybe she was just repeating some things that she was taught in seminary. And there are, sometimes, especially in a moment where someone has just passed away and their friends and family are struggling, that sometimes the best thing you can do is just to be with people and not give answers. But that's different than saying, I don't know, or the Bible really doesn't tell us. It gives us so much hope, and it gives us clear answers. And so one thing I just want to give as an encouragement to those who are in ministry, really to anyone who is faced with a situation like this, and someone asked them a question, because it's not just the pastors that people ask this. Sometimes when friends and family are having a conversation, they'll throw things like, what do you think happened? What do you think happened? Here's an encouragement I want to give. Lead with clarity and then follow with nuance. Bro, that's really good. It's just, it's a really important thing to understand. Hey, lead with what the Bible does give clear answers for, because we're going to go here in a bit, and we're going to give some answers it does give us. But then, by all means, then follow with some nuance and say, hey, there are some things that the Bible doesn't give us details about around it, but that shouldn't distract us from what we can and what we don't know. Shouldn't distract us from what we can know. Before, in a second with that in mind, in a minute, I want you to actually, Carlos, like if you were with this guy, because this guy, by the way, this was not a theoretical question. It sounded like this guy was facing death, and she said that he was struggling. That's right. So in a minute, I actually want to model how I think we could answer this, and I'm going to ask you to give us that clarity of what you would say pastorally. But I think there was one other thing that you wanted to touch on before we get there. Yeah, just I want to add to what you're saying here. Here's what people need to understand. With all due respect to the priest here, sometimes somebody claims spiritual authority, and then go ahead and they deny or they hide what the Bible clearly and explicitly and completely says on any topic in the Bible, man, that's a major red flag. And so, you know, what you need to understand is there are multiple ways to read the Bible. There is one way to read the Bible and to read it, see what it says and say, man, I will trust it and I will go under its authority. And then there's another way of reading the Bible, and this is known as the, quote, progressive way of reading the Bible. Yeah, which is, by the way, her way. And she's saying, Man, I see what the text is saying, but is that really true? I mean, I don't know. I mean, can we really be certain of it today? I mean, I was reading a long time ago, you know, people were at the time, today, we know some other things. And is that really true? I'm not so sure. And I got my interpretation, and you got yours. And so, man, I can't really tell you what the Bible actually says on this topic. And so that's, that's another way of reading the Bible. Do you know, Paul, who did this? In the Bible, who, the serpent in Genesis three was the first person that said, Hey, did God really say, is that really the Word of God? Did he really mean what you think he meant? Or is that just your interpretation of it, man, there's gonna be another interpretation of it. Let me, let me share with you what my interpretation is. And honestly, but can we actually, at the end of the day, can we really have certainty? Can we really know? And that's what's going on here. Yes. When somebody says, man, we cannot know for certain something that the Bible clearly says, you gotta, you gotta, major red flag. So this, this is really important for people to understand the reason we are passionate here with Live Free and at Lake Point for people to be in the word is because we want you to be confident that the word of God is true. Yes. That will determine your theology and what you believe will, will determine what, how you behave. And so again, um, we don't do, we don't go to scripture because we think this is some sort of speculation from some people that wrote some things back in the day. We go to it because we believe this is revelation from God to us. Um, the reason we believe the word of God is true is because when you open up the book, by the way, when people say, uh, people will ask me, Carlos, you believe the word of God is true. Yes, I do. Um, here's why, because when you open the book, the Bible says, thus says the Lord over and over again, second Timothy chapter three says all of scripture is God breathed. It is inspired by God and is useful to teach what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our life. Second Peter chapter one. You must realize that no prophecy in scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy spirit and they listened. They, they spoke from God. Yes. Jesus affirms the authority of scripture for 2000 years. Christians have believed again, this is not human speculation. This is godly revelation. So again, when somebody reads the Bible and they tell you, man, I see what it says, but I don't know. I mean, who, who really knows? Um, run, be careful. Yes. That's not it. And, and even just to kind of just pause for a second and really just maybe highlight some teachable moments so far. So really what we've been doing so far is just reacting to the video and basically trying to say, Hey, here's some watchouts and here's some things that we would do differently. We're going to get back to the question and give people an answer to the question here in just a second. But just to kind of highlight a few things. One thing that you said, basically, it's like, Hey, actually the Bible is crystal clear on a lot of things and watch out for anyone who says, well, actually it's not. Because I can really, I was trying to think as you were talking, I can only think maybe of one or two places where the Bible says anything close to, well, I don't know, or we don't know. And the only thing I can think of is in the Old Testament, there is a place in Deuteronomy that says the secret things belong to the Lord, but the revealed things belong to us. Now, and what that's saying is, Hey, there are some things that we cannot know as human beings that God has not told us. And so even like on this specific topic of what happens when you die, I don't know all the details of what's going to happen in the future. I don't know all the details of what's going to happen in the first 10 minutes after you die. But we, again, we're going to get back to, Hey, there are the most important things we do know. But man, like there, yes, there's some things that we can't know. And we shouldn't, by the way, say clearly what the Bible has not said clearly. But that being said, what does that verse also say? But the things that are revealed, the things that are written down in scripture belong to us. So there is so much that we can know. So anytime you hear somebody who's saying, Oh, I don't know, or we can't know when the Bible clearly gives us answers to that topic. Yes. Or when they focus or they change the interpretation of what is clearly said, it's a watch out. That's right. A second thing that we've said so far is basically like, Hey, when you're ministering to someone, or even just when you're trying to be a good family member or friend, and someone asks you a question where there's a little bit of a mixture of both, where there's some things that we can know, and there's some things that we can't know, lead, start with clarity and then follow with nuance. That's great. Follow with nuance. So that being said, I now want to basically get to the question is, okay, if you or I, if we were with this guy and we had a chance to sit with them, what would we say to them? And I want you to give the kind of the more pastoral answer. And then what I'm going to do then is after you've done that, and maybe I'll make some comments, I then kind of do want to do a little bit of a deep dive with our listeners and watchers and kind of go into some of the theology that is going to underpin and that does underpin your pastoral response. So what would you say? Yeah. So let me tell you what I would say. But before I do, I just want to say, man, you mentioned this, man, this is such a big deal. And I want to make a big deal about it because it is a big deal. She's not dealing with like some abstract theological or philosophical question by herself. This is a real person. In her church, that's coming to her and asking a real question with real implications in real life. And so let me super quick. Here's why it matters more than people realize. Number one, because the Bible says our hope actually goes beyond this life here on earth. First Corinthians 15, verse 19 says, and if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anybody in the world. But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. It matters what you believe, what happens after you die, because that's where our ultimate hope is. And whatever you believe about what happens after you die will determine whether you live a miserable life or whether you live a life full of hope. First Corinthians says that if it is only for this life that we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. So some people will say, well, even if Christianity had not been true, it's still, I don't have no regrets. Like, what are you talking about? It's literally the Bible says that if there is no hope after this life for us, then we should be pitied above all people. Yeah. Here's another reason. Number two, when we lose loved ones. Yeah. We have hope that that's not the end. First Thessalonians chapter four, verse 13 says, and now dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know, check that language, Paul. We want you to know. Not know, we can't know, but to know. No, we want you to know what will happen to believers who have died. So you will not grieve like people who have no hope. Yeah. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. Listen, if you're a Christian, it's okay to grieve, but it is not okay to grieve without hope. We just, we grieve differently. Jesus is saying, listen, you can trust me. I got your loved ones. Those who put their faith in Christ, Jesus says, I will raise them back to life. Death is not the end. We're going to talk about this in just here in a little bit. Number three, here's why it also matters. Heaven and hell are real. Yes. The Bible teaches that eternity is a long time and you will be with Jesus forever and ever, or without Jesus forever and ever. Again, we're, I'm about to explain here. We're going to go deeper here in just a second. Hebrews chapter nine, verse 27 says it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this, there is judgment. And so either Jesus will pay for your sins or you will. And either Jesus will pay for your sins or says will be your friend or you will stand with him as your foe um that's a big deal that we need to know what happens after you die because i want to know how do you get to the part where you get to be with jesus forever and the last reason why is because suffering on this earth is temporary compared to eternity romans chapter 8 verse 18 yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later um i had the opportunity of praying paul yesterday with a lady in our church who was just diagnosed with cancer wow and uh you know we are praying for healing now um and we have hope that death will not have the last word in her life um because she belongs to jesus that's right and so uh you'll say this here in just a second but if you know jesus this is as close as hell as you will get yeah uh and so whatever the chronic disease whatever pain whatever suffering whatever tragedy um it the bible calls it a light and a moment affliction compared to the eternal glory that is that is to come in christ jesus and so it's a big deal now let me let me just say okay so if somebody comes to me paul and says man um what happens after you die here here's what i would say uh i would say uh i would start with what what you said i would probably ask him if this is like a random conversation yeah i'd be like hey um tell me why you're asking this tell me tell me why you're asking this question um because there is like you said there's a place for silence and lament and presence that's important now in addition to that uh if they just want to know what the bible teaches um here would be my my quick response i'd be like hey uh the bible makes it clear that death is not the end of our existence hebrews 9 verse 27 says it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment one day you and i will stand before a holy righteous god and the bible speaks about a judgment and there's going to be two different eternal destinations you will either have eternal life with god or eternal death and you will have eternal life with god and you will have eternal separation from god and the bad news is that the standard of perfection uh because we have a holy and just god is that um that's the standard and you and i have fallen short of the glory of god and our sin is a declaration of war against that holy and just god but the good news the great news of the gospel is that jesus lives the life that you and i could not live he dies the death that you and i should have died so that today you and i can receive the eternal uh life and the gift of salvation that you and i should have died so that today you and i can receive the eternal life and that you and i could have never deserved and because he defeats death at the cross and was resurrected uh we know that one day you and i will follow in his footsteps so john chapter 11 verse 25 this is why jesus said this he says i am the resurrection in the life anyone who believes in me will live even after dying yeah and so the good news is you don't receive this because you are trying you receive these because you decide to trust in him um it is a gift of god's grace to be received through faith so if you trust in jesus after you die you get to be with jesus this is why second corinthians chapter 5 verse 8 says to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord and so if i'm talking to this person this is the great opportunity to say hey well have you trusted in jesus if the answer is uh no then we can take care of that right now if the answer is yes then this is also great news then if you have trusted in jesus you do not have to be afraid of death because we have placed our trust our trust in jesus and we have placed our trust in the one who has already defeated death hebrews chapter 2 verse 14 says because god's children are human beings made of flesh and blood the son also became flesh and blood for only as a human being could jesus die and only by dying could jesus break the power of the devil who had the power of death only in this way listen he could set free all who have ever lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying this is why disciples of jesus can live fearless lives and you and i do not have to be afraid of death because we trust in the one who conquered death amen let's put it this way you can live free of the fear of death amen you can live free the fear of death i love that so even just recapping from what you said is that number one if you're talking to somebody you're first going to establish are they a believer in jesus or not because by the way if they're not a believer in jesus they should be afraid they should be afraid because as we said you said a minute ago that i may say here again in a moment man for the believer in christ this is as close to hell as we're ever going to get because while there is a lot of god's beauty in the world and there's natural grace given to us all and there's there is some goodness and love here this is also a broken world that is marred by sin and so for the believer in jesus this is as close to an experience as hell as you and i are ever going to get for the unbeliever this is as close to heaven as they're ever going to get yeah because while this place is filled um with some good this is the last time they'll ever get to experience it forever if you're an unbeliever there is a reason to be afraid but then so once you've established that then if they're a believer it's like oh then there's no fear for you because death is an exit door from the closest you ever get to hell and it's an entry door into heaven and heaven is where you get to be with jesus that's what makes heaven heaven i love the apostle paul he talks about how in philippians 1 and later in 2nd corinthians 5 and other places as well how he longs to depart and to be with christ for him it's not simply because he wants to be with him he wants to be so that oh he doesn't say i long to depart and to be on the streets of gold like he talks about in revelation although that's amazing too the whole idea of heaven is what makes heaven heaven is to be with jesus and if you're a believer in jesus you have that to look forward to that's why it's odd i didn't plan on sharing this but um you know as pastors we get to do weddings and funerals and while funerals are harder in one way um i actually way prefer them than to weddings because at a wedding i could preach a whole lot of things but i didn't plan on sharing this but i didn't plan on a 45 second sermon and everybody would still wish it was 15 seconds shorter like no matter what you do like dude they're just yeah it's like they're just not there for you but man at a funeral if you want uh chad g plus c to do your wedding go ahead and comment right now don't do that don't do that don't do that he's available he's got nothing to do oh my goodness oh goodness if you only knew now all the requests we're gonna get that'd be kind of cool do a wedding i wasn't gonna say that i thought you were going somewhere else anyways that's okay you can say it's cool that you do your own that's somebody's wedding back to funerals um i i prefer you to a funeral because in my experience man people are open to the gospel ah because even if someone's not a believer in jesus in that moment they're faced with death and they are open in a way to say hey this is all like we are all going to face this unless jesus returns before you die we are all going to face this that's a beautiful moment to preach the gospel um to those who have a reason to fear but it's also a great time to give hope to those who don't have a reason to fear um i'll just add this one thing and then maybe we can kind more of a deeper dive of some ways that this question is answered by different kind of systems of theology and then we just want to be kind of double click on really what you said and give a little bit more of the theological biblical underpinning of what you said but can i i do want to say this um if you're talking with someone like what you just did was you led with clarity and then what i might do if i'm with someone i might then say hey if you're wondering about things like well what what exactly does it look like in the first 10 minutes after like hey i don't know and we already said this before like hey i don't know some of those details but i would then say don't let what you don't know distract you from what you can know and so i i obviously would not use this illustration in every setting it really depends upon what what the setting is but something i would maybe say to them if it's not like at a funeral itself and say hey like if you ask me if you've never been to universal or disney before and you're like hey what's it going to be like i'm not going to lead with well i don't know who's going to be there to take your ticket and i don't know all the people they're going to be in line with you and i don't know the first character you're going to meet on the main street and i don't know you know i'm not there's going to be a long line that is well that's a major i'm probably not going to tell them that in my detail but my point is i'm not leading yeah with all the things i don't know you know what i'm gonna say oh dude it's gonna be amazing man once you get to like whatever i don't know what it's gonna look like at your chicken but hey you're gonna see this and you're gonna experience this so that's how i would often come around with people saying hey that's great here's what we do know and then i say hey we don't know some of these things but you know what in the same way that in if you go to universal or disney those are inconsequential details it's the same thing you're gonna get to be with jesus yeah with jesus and that's the best thing ever um you want to maybe jump down to maybe some broad broad views and yeah so theology underpinning this so i just gave the the normal pastoral response chad people see it's going to give you the upgraded oh stop it that is not what this is about deep dive uh theological you're gonna paul you're gonna share three different theological views yes on what happens when you die um not all right no uh no one is yeah that's because it's from the bible we've got we've got if you are uh if you're not seeing this we we just put a chart up because we love charts and tables here um at live free we do we we love them um and so we're going to walk through three views and really this is the question hey what happens when you die specifically i'd say hey what happens when a christian dies and i want to walk through three potential answers but again what we're doing now is we're we're following with the nuance you gave us clarity you gave us the clarity and so i wanted to highlight that first now let's just talk about some of the nuances of how others or have answered this so there's a materialistic way of view in this or an atheistic way of hey it's just simply matter when you die you return back to matter we'll address soul sleep here in a bit that some christians actually believe but that we believe yeah that's the second view but that we believe is a false view and then yeah we'll kind of basically circle around to what you already said but kind of give a little bit more detail on what we believe that the bible simply and clearly teaches so the first view of if you were to ask a materialist or an atheist well hey what happens when a christian dies they would say you die you cease to exist you were matter you return to but I actually think probably the best criticism I've ever heard of this. It didn't come from a pastor or a theologian. It came from a comedian. And we actually have a clip of a comedian who addresses this. I want to go ahead and preface this when you see this. This is a hilarious guy, but we've edited out some things. And not a safe guy, initially, to watch with kids in the room. So you're not going to hear anything bad here in this one. But if you're like, hey, I really like this guy. I'm going to go look him up. This is not a guy, initially, that's always family-friendly. Just want to give that heads up to you. But let's watch this clip because I think he gives a brilliant criticism of the materialistic view that simply says, you cease to exist. That's it. There is no life after death. Here's what he says. Some people think God created the universe. Some people think nothing created the universe, which is the funniest guess. And then nothing people make fun of the God people. They say God doesn't exist. I'm like, okay, maybe. But you know what definitely doesn't exist? Nothing. That's the defining characteristic of nothing is that it doesn't exist. So what are we talking about? Either you think it's God, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove, or you think it's nothing, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove. But I think we can all agree if nothing, if your nothing sometimes spontaneously erupts into everything, that's a pretty magical nothing, you guys. And ask, ask the nothing people, what happens when you die? They'll tell you, nothing. You go into nothing. I'm like, you mean you merge back with your creator? I love it, man. Again, I think he gives just some of the most succinct, best critiques of this frame of reference. But I will add this, and he kind of alluded to this. Sometimes if I'm talking with an atheist or I'm coaching people, if they're ever in the conversation with an atheist, you know, they mock our point of view. Like, oh, you really think that someone intelligent created all of this? And they make it sound like we're the stupid ones for believing that. And I'm like, okay, let's just imagine this for a second. Let's imagine you and I were walking on the beach and there is, we stumble upon this really sophisticated, complicated piece of machinery or device or something like that. And you and I have two different points of view. Your point of view is that obviously the easiest, most simple, most intelligent explanation, is that this simply appeared out of nothing and out of nowhere. It just spontaneously came into being. This really sophisticated, complex thing, it just came out of nowhere. And then I began arguing, no, the obvious explanation is that someone intelligent actually put this thing together. And so we're going back and forth and back and forth. And eventually people hear us going back and forth and people come up and they start listening to us. And I just would say, hey, who is your average person going to think is the smart one? Who are they going to think is the foolish one? Obviously, they're going to think that the person arguing that this really sophisticated, complicated thing that obviously denotes intelligence was created by someone intelligent, not that it simply spontaneously came from nothing. So I'm not doing this right now to mock atheists. I'm more just doing this to say, hey, actually, the simplest explanation is the one that always happens. Atheists would have us believe that everything came from nothing randomly, but that's never happened again. Christians, by the way, if it did, that was a miracle. Yeah. The biggest miracle of all time. But they would say, hey, but it's never happened again. Happened once, but it never happened again. Christians are people who believe that everything was created from nothing by someone, but that everything was created by someone. And guess what? That's all that's ever happened again. And that's all of our experience. And so for us, we reject, obviously, the materialistic view because we believe that there is a someone called the creator God. He created everyone and everything. And he created us to live forever somewhere. That's right. Which goes back to what you said earlier. So that's one point of view. We obviously reject that. And again, the comedian did the best job, I think, ever of basically showing why that's kind of a silly thing to believe. So not that view. Not the materialistic view. A second view, and this is actually one that has gained some popularity over the last century or two, but really was very rare throughout Christian history, is the idea called soul sleep. So here, the idea is that, hey, in the New Testament, death is often referred to as sleep, that they have fallen asleep or that they are asleep. And so the idea here is that, hey, the body dies. So, OK, what happens to a Christian when they die? Someone who believes in soul sleep would say, hey, the body dies, and then you are unconscious until the final resurrection. So in the same way that, Carlos, when you and I fall asleep at night, and then all of a sudden we wake up and it feels like no time has gone by whatsoever. But hey, actually, it could be eight hours is like when you're in your 20s still, bro. I hate to break it to you when you get to your 42. Eight hours is like a miracle, bro. Yeah, six. Six to seven hours. Six to seven hours is decent. The other day I got eight and I was like, oh, my Lord, this is like the greatest thing of all time. Anyways, anyways. So some people say, well, hey, in the same way, when you die, your body dies, but your soul, your spirit, it just becomes unconscious. And then you wake up and Jesus has returned. And then you go into the final full new creation of the new heavens and new earth. Carlos, could you help us explain why this is not the biblical view, not what the Bible clearly teaches? Yes. So there's actually a decent amount of, you know, things we could say about this one. We got some Bible verses. So let me give you some. So number one, Philippians chapter one, verse 21. Here's what I would say for me to live as Christ and to die as gain. My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is far better. So Paul is here is not saying, hey, I desire to depart and become unconscious until the resurrection. He is saying, I desire to depart and be with Christ. That's number one. Also, can I add on to that? Please do. He said, if in verse 22, he says, if I am to live in the flesh, whenever, just a verse earlier, he talked about in the body, so body and flesh here being used interchangeably. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me, yet which I shall not choose, I cannot tell. And basically he's talking about, I desire to depart and be with Christ to depart from what? From the body and then to experience something else. So he doesn't give the choice between, hey, I desire to go to sleep and wake up again. The idea is that, man, if I die, I depart from my body. We'll get to that here in a moment, momentarily, not forever, but then to actually presently be with Christ, if that happens. Yeah. And second Corinthians five, verse six, I believe says, we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. And so again, to me, that's pretty clear. Let me give you a couple more. So Luke chapter 23, verse 43, Jesus tells the thief on the cross. He says, hey, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise. He did not say, hey, well, you know, it's early. So in a couple thousand years, maybe perhaps, you know, he said today, number three in Revelation chapter six, this is really interesting. Verse nine through 11, John describes dead believers who are conscious. So John, in this particular section of scripture, he sees souls of martyrs who have died because of their faith. And we know they've died because they're martyrs, but they're also conscious and they are talking to God and the final judgment has not happened yet. And so they have not experienced the resurrection, but they are conscious and they're alive. They're not sleeping. That's good. I just double click on one thing you said, and then even add another text. 2 Corinthians 5 is a huge passage for this because he says, I desire to depart from the body and be with the Lord. The thing you got to realize is we'll get to here in a bit when we're unpacking the biblical view is that the apostle Paul does not view our eternal complete destiny as being apart from a body and being a disembodied spirit. In 1 Corinthians 15, he talks about how there's a time where our souls slash spirits will be reunited with our bodies and we will live forever with glorified physical bodies. And so, but Paul just said, I want to depart from the body and be with the Lord. Well, so the whole idea here is that if he believes that we're going to one day be reunited with our bodies, but he also believes that somehow we can be with the Lord, that must mean there must be an intermediate time. We'll get to this here in a minute. It was something that's called the intermediate state where you are with the Lord, but you are apart from your body. And then you are eventually reunited. With your body. It's a huge one. It's a huge one. So then people say, well, why does it use the metaphor of sleep? Well, that's the whole idea. We're like, why does he use the word sleep? It's a metaphor. Think about, think about sleep. Like I go to sleep and then I, what I wake up. It's temporary. What they're trying to say is, Hey, the experience of physical death is temporary. It's not going to last forever. Eventually you will have a physical body again. And also I think it uses the metaphor of sleep because guess what? Jesus Christ can awake the dead. He can awake you from your sleep. That's the idea of sleep as a temporary state that you can be woken up from. Death is a temporary state that Christ is one day going to awaken us up from, and we're going to be reunited with our bodies. Another text that I would want to give to people is, I know it's a parable, but this matters, is Jesus tells a parable about one man who goes to heaven and then another man who goes to hell and they are present states. And it's before, yeah, it's a conscious present state, but it is before the final judgment. Now, some people say, well, Hey, well, that was a parable. My response to that is like, yes. And we always do have to be a little careful about stretching parables, uh, beyond what they were originally designed to do. But my response is just like, so you're telling me that Jesus would depict something false and get your hopes up about something that's not true about the afterlife to make his point. Um, I just don't think he would do that. So there's just a few more. So we would say, Hey, like soul sleep. It's not, it's not, it's not the thing. It's not the historic Christian view in this, because there's, we got clear Bible verses for that now. Okay. So then what is the biblical view? And again, this is really just saying more technically what you already said pastorally. Again, I'm basically just saying, Hey, you already said this way better. That's - See Paul C version right now, go ahead. - Yeah, but I'm saying yours was the more pastoral answer that you should give to somebody, by the way. I'm going on the deep dive version. Like, I'm not gonna do this if someone asked me this at a funeral. Again, just wanna declare. Leave with clarity, follow with nuance. We're going with nuance. Hey, the biblical view is that at death, your body dies. And then there is an initial judgment. You said earlier in Hebrews, it says it is appointed once for a person to die, and then comes judgment. But here's, I just actually wanna cut in, even though we're doing more of the theology in the Bible right now. I wanna go back in pastorally and say, if you're a Christian, that is not something you have to fear, that judgment. And the reason is because 2,000 years ago, the only man who ever did not deserve to face judgment, faced judgment so that you and I wouldn't have to. That actually what happens is, if you can imagine the timeline of your life right now, and you can kind of just imagine a line there, is that the exact second you surrender your life to Christ and you put your faith in him for salvation, your judgment goes from your future to your past. And it goes on Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago. So just when a Christian hears that, I don't want that to be like, judgment, I should be afraid. No, no, no, no, that's the whole point of the cross. It's the whole point of the gospel, is that if you're a believer in Jesus, that judgment is not anything you have to fear. So we die, our physical, but go ahead, what were you about to say? - No, yeah, and because you are in Christ, God sees Christ's righteousness in you. So now you're justified just as if you've never sinned. - Exactly, exactly. - That's right. - Exactly, exactly. Okay, so your body dies, but because you've placed your faith in Jesus, your spirit now is with Christ and you're at home with him. That again, death is a place where you are welcomed home. It's something to look forward to. Then, and you kind of hit this when we were critiquing slow sleep, you are consciously with Christ. Now, we don't have all the details of what that means 'cause people are like, well, wait a second, if you lose your body, does that mean we're just like floating invisible spirits? We don't get a lot of details on this, but here's what I would say, as you said in Revelation, you actually get the sense that even though it's their spirits, they're somehow visible. John can see them and remember that, for example, angels are spiritual beings, but they can manifest themselves physically. But I don't wanna over-speak here. And again, this is an example of a place where, hey, the Bible doesn't give us all the details, but the biggest one that we can know is this, we'll be with Christ. - Yeah, Paul, tell me about this. So people will say, but what about the transfiguration when Jesus meets Moses and Elijah? - Yeah. - It's like a resurrection hasn't happened. - I would say it's an example of where spiritual beings can manifest themselves physically. - There you go. - All throughout the Bible. We see this in the Old Testament, by the way, in the New Testament says God is spirit, but in the Old Testament, he could manifest himself through flame. And even sometimes by the looking of a person. And so that's even what I would say. So I just don't want people to think, oh, we're just floating around invisible beings. It's like, no, it's gonna be a real experience with Christ in heaven, it's gonna be amazing. But hey, that's not where the story ends actually. - That's right. - Is that in the future, there's gonna be a resurrection. - Yeah. I remember when I was in T. Wright, I one time heard in an interview, he said, man, you are gonna go to heaven after you die, just don't get too comfortable there. - Mm, yeah. - And what he meant by that is that the biblical picture is that one day when Christ returns, we are going to be raised. 1 Corinthians 15 talks about this moment and also 1 Thessalonians 4. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, it says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable. And we shall all be changed." 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of a trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." And then a few verses later it says, "And we will be with him forever." So the picture, if you go to the end of Revelation, is not simply all of us going up to heaven and being disembodied spirits and souls. The picture is of heaven coming down to earth and there being a new heavens and a new earth. And heaven is basically comes down here, we're raised up and we get to now have perfect glorified bodies with Christ forever. So we get to go to heaven and experience it now. And then one day when Christ returns, we'll be raised, reunited with our bodies, with a glorified body, and we'll be with Christ forever. Do you think I've got another picture that gives a more detailed thing? Do you think it's worth it? Or do you think we've given a pretty good overview? - What's the picture? - Hey, real quick, we can just put this up there in case even like, this way, by the way. And I encourage people to do this. I often do this with videos that I watch on YouTube. So man, if you're watching this on your phone, it might even be helpful to like just, what I do is I'll sometimes take a snapshot of my screen and then there I have it. And so really this just lays out what I just said, kind of in a more detailed timeline, is that man, for a Christian, man, we die, we face an initial judgment that we don't have to fear, man, but then we live in what's called the intermediate state where we're with Christ and it's amazing and it's perfect. But we're awaiting the future resurrection where when Jesus returns, our bodies are raised up, number three, and reunited with our spirit. We then do stand before Christ for a final judgment, but this is not for condemnation, this is for commendation. I'll say that again. The final judgment for a Christian, this is just for a Christian, is not condemnation, but it's for commendation. - Yeah, explain what that means. - Yeah, commendation means that actually the Bible says that we're going to receive heavenly rewards based on our life of faithfulness here on earth. - We don't all get the same thing. Now it's all gonna be amazing for everyone. Everyone will have full joy, but there does, and we should actually, we should do an episode on this. We should do a Q and A on this and that. We should do a Q&A on this and the idea of varying rewards. I think it'd be worth double clicking on. But again, I just, for now, I don't want this to be a source of fear. Again, this is a source of hope that one day we're going to receive commendation. And then we have everlasting life with God in the new creation. And it says we're with him forever and ever in a place where there is no sickness, there is no sin. There is no pain. There's only ever increasing joy. And I didn't use that intentionally, Carlos. Again, this is honestly worth even another one. Our joy is actually going to increase in heaven forever. And what I mean by that, for me, this always makes me emotional. God is infinite, but we're finite. But what that means is that we are going to know God, but we can never know him fully. But because heaven is infinite, it's eternal it's everlasting for the rest of eternity we're going to come to know God more and more forever and I don't know about you but when I was getting to know my wife and still am the more I get to know the more joy I have and the more I love her which means that actually heaven is a place where your love for God and your joy in God will only increase forever and that's what you have to look forward to as a Christian yeah that's what you have to look forward to so yeah that's That's the biblical view. By the way, that chart is helpful. Oh, thanks, man. This is a really good chart, actually. I'm like, oh, man. And by the way, if you're looking on there, we give scripture references for all these. I've referenced some, but there's scripture references for all these if you want to go look those up. Once again, man, the word of God is true. Man, we get a lot of responses and a lot of answers. The Bible call said the bread of life. Yes. Thank God for his revelation. Let's wrap with some pastoral thoughts, Pastor Paul, here as we land the plane. Yeah, here's some just final pastoral words I'd have, and I'd love to hear what you have to say. Man, one is this, is that, you know, both for the great clarity, by the way, I loved your answer more than mine, your pastoral answer that you gave earlier, and the more nuanced one, detailed one I just gave earlier. For Christians, man, this should be a source of comfort. Yes. For us, that death is not the final word, that we can have hope for the future, that, again, this is the closest to hell that we're ever going to experience. And so for us, death is, by the way, not—it is a natural thing in the sense of it happens to everybody. But death is also, and the Bible talked about, as an enemy, that one day death will be no more. But I will say, man, for the Christian, death comes from something that we have to dread, but actually it's an exit door from this world and it's an entry door in the world to come in a place that's amazing. So for the Christian, it can be a source of hope. It can also be a source of comfort for those of us who have lost friends or family members who are believers in Jesus. I have a grandmother right now that it seems like she is more, she's in her mid-90s, and it seems like more and more she's approaching death. And I've actually reflected this in the last week. We, just in case it's coming soon, we said some goodbyes last week on the phone, and it was teary-eyed, I'm not going to lie. I mean, as Christians, we can still grieve the loss of loved ones. But immediately when I got off the phone, I said, Lord, thank you for the fact that it actually was not the final word. But I'm going to see her again. I will say this. So for believers, it should fill us with hope and comfort. Man, also for us, when we think of unbelievers, it should fill us with urgency. Because death is coming for us all, including for people who don't know Christ. And again, for them, Mike, when I think about this, Carlos, it just overcomes me sometimes. You and I, one day our faith is going to be made sight. But when we see Jesus, it's going to be the first time you and I see him physically. And it will also be the first time of an infinite eternity to come that we get to see him forever. And because that's true, for us as believers, man, for us, death can be a source of hope and comfort, but it also needs to be a source of urgency to share the gospel with everyone who is close to us, but far from God. Now, what about you? Any pastoral words that you'd give? - Can I just add a third thing? - Please, please do. - 'Cause you talked about comfort and urgency. Let me give you one more. The third one would be courage. - Yes. - And here's why, exactly after what you just said, what you just said, the Bible says you have enemy and the enemy might not be afraid of you but he is terrified of your savior and if you and i are in christ we have received a mission a commission uh an assignment a calling a vocation uh for his glory for his kingdom and part of that is to preach the gospel and to tell other people about the good news of hope that we find in jesus christ and uh when you look at somebody like the apostle paul uh man he uh the reason why the apostle paul was fearless is because he knew exactly that's right what was gonna happen after he died that's right he knew exactly what uh what awaited will awaited for him um and and so when you look at the life of the apostle paul again he he carries himself with a fearlessness and a courage because he knows that the enemy might try to send somebody to literally take his life away or make him suffer but he's like man i know what's coming and so when you when you look at it people are like paul is like preaching the gospel and then he gets caught and he's like hey we're gonna torture you and he's like romans 8 18 i consider that our present suffering are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us later paul we're going to put you in prison acts 20 24 i consider my life worth nothing to me my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the lord jesus has given me the task of testifying to the good news of god's grace so i'm gonna if you even if you put me in prison i'm gonna convert all your guards that's right paul we're gonna kill you philippians 1 21 to die is gain paul we're gonna let you live okay to live is christ fearless you cannot touch him because he knows exactly what's coming after in other words what paul is saying hey if i live i live for jesus if i die i get to be with jesus regardless i win and that should fill you with courage and hope jesus even said hey you will face opposition but hey do not be afraid of the people that can kill your body you need to be afraid of the one who can kill your body and send you to hell in christ we have no condemnation if god is for us who can be against us you and i by the grace of god and empowered by the holy spirit we can live life of courage and boldness as we lovingly proclaim the gospel to the people around us that are going to hell without christ and so let me let me just land uh this episode with this paul man um have you heard the story of the two babies in the womb i don't believe that bro this is this is a great story okay this is a story written by this spanish writer and i want you to imagine that uh there's two babies in a womb and uh imagine this scenario two babies are talking to each other inside their mother's womb and one baby asks the other he says hey um do you believe in life after birth uh and the other baby's like uh you know of course i do man i believe that there is something beyond this place man there's a whole world waiting for us like there's a whole world waiting for us but then the first baby goes like man i don't know man nobody has ever come back after being born to tell us what happens i mean how could there possibly be life beyond this world and then the second baby says man i believe that when we leave this place man we will see light and uh we're going to be able to walk with our feet and we're going to be able to eat with our mouths and man we're going to get the opportunity of experiencing things that we've never even imagined at this point and the first baby just laughs and be like man that's impossible what are you talking about we've never walked yeah we've never even eaten with our mouths besides what is this mother that you keep talking about like man what are you talking about and the second baby goes man uh she's all around us and we we are actually alive because of her the reason we even exist is because of her and the first baby responds man well if she exists then why can't we see her where is she and then the second baby quietly says uh sometimes when everything is still i can actually hear her voice and uh i can hear her voice i can hear her voice and i can hear her presence and i believe that one day this is going to be the most beautiful thing one day we will finally get to see her face to face and it's going to be the most beautiful thing that we've ever experienced in our lives and so here's the point what those two babies were trying to wrap their minds around is um what was the end of their life in the womb was actually the beginning of another life a much much infinitely greater life than they could ever possibly imagine and what the bible says is that is that it's the beginning of another life a much much infinitely greater life than they could ever possibly imagine and what the bible says is that it's the beginning of another life a much much infinitely greater life than they could ever possibly imagine and what the bible says is that it's the beginning of another life what the bible says is that if you are in christ that is true for you what the bible says is that if you are in christ that is true for you that right there is our hope that right there is our hope that right there is our hope that because the death of jesus was not the that because the death of jesus was not the that because the death of jesus was not the end of jesus the same is true for you end of jesus the same is true for you end of jesus the same is true for you death is not the end death does not have death is not the end death does not have death is not the end death does not have the last word jesus defeats death john the last word jesus defeats death john the last word jesus defeats death john chapter 11 verse 25 jesus says the one who chapter 11 verse 25 jesus says the one who chapter 11 verse 25 jesus says the one who believes in me will live even though believes in me will live even though believes in me will live even though they die and whoever lives by believing they die and whoever lives by believing they die and whoever lives by believing in me in me in me will never die and this is exactly why will never die and this is exactly why will never die and this is exactly why billy graham famously said hey someday billy graham famously said hey someday billy graham famously said hey someday someday you will hear that billy graham someday you will hear that billy graham someday you will hear that billy graham is dead is dead is dead do not believe a word of it i will be do not believe a word of it i will be do not believe a word of it i will be more alive than i am now more alive than i am now more alive than i am now i will have just changed my address i i will have just changed my address i i will have just changed my address i will have gone into the presence of god will have gone into the presence of god will have gone into the presence of god listen this is true listen this is true listen this is true a christian never truly dies he simply a christian never truly dies he simply a christian never truly dies he simply changes the address changes the address changes the address from earth to heaven from the presence from earth to heaven from the presence from earth to heaven from the presence of suffering to the presence of his of suffering to the presence of his of suffering to the presence of his savior so good man that's the life of savior so good man that's the life of savior so good man that's the life of the christian that's the hope that we the christian that's the hope that we the christian that's the hope that we have have have amen uh pastor paul would you pray for amen uh pastor paul would you pray for amen uh pastor paul would you pray for us us us um god again well even we said at the um god again well even we said at the um god again well even we said at the beginning um there's so much that we beginning um there's so much that we beginning um there's so much that we can't know in this life and some things can't know in this life and some things can't know in this life and some things that we can't know about the next life that we can't know about the next life that we can't know about the next life but what we can know is absolutely but what we can know is absolutely incredible for us as christians and so incredible for us as christians and so incredible for us as christians and so lord even in light of some things that lord even in light of some things that lord even in light of some things that we just said i pray that you would we just said i pray that you would we just said i pray that you would fill us with hope for the future fill us with hope for the future fill us with hope for the future that we know that what awaits on us on that we know that what awaits on us on that we know that what awaits on us on the other side of death is more amazed the other side of death is more amazed the other side of death is more amazed than we can possibly imagine may that than we can possibly imagine may that than we can possibly imagine may that fill us with hope here in the present fill us with hope here in the present fill us with hope here in the present because we want them to be with us with because we want them to be with us with because we want them to be with us with you you you forever and um god i do pray that you forever and um god i do pray that you forever and um god i do pray that you would would would give comfort to those right now maybe give comfort to those right now maybe give comfort to those right now maybe who've been listening to this who have who've been listening to this who have who've been listening to this who have either facing death now either in their either facing death now either in their either facing death now either in their own lives or in the family members life own lives or in the family members life own lives or in the family members life or recently and god i pray that all or recently and god i pray that all things we've said would be a source of great comfort to them. We love you. We pray that you'd be with anyone right now who is brokenhearted because of this. But again, fill us with hope and with conviction, with courage, Lord. We love you. In your name we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Live free. Live free, brother. Well, hey, thanks so much for listening. Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory. If you're already a member of a local church, we want you giving there. But if you'd like to make a donation to help this message go further, faster, it genuinely helps us boost getting out to more people. If you'd like to make a donation, you can text the word GIVE to the number 20411 and then just choose CHURCH ONLINE from that drop-down menu. To find out more about Lake Point, you can visit lakepoint.church. Thank you.