What Happens When Two Avoidants Fall in Love | Relationship Psychology Explained

Welcome back to "I Wish You New." I'm your host, Adam Lane Smith, the attachment specialist. Now today is part two of a conversation that I had a wonderful interview earlier with Carly, who's back with her partner Mel. Now, interesting twists here, and many of you have asked for this specifically, if you remember from Carly's episode, she and her partner are both avoidantly attached. So today is going to answer the question. Many of you have asked in the comments sections, can two avoidant people even be in the same room for more than five minutes in a relationship? Turns out the answer is yes, but a few things do have to change. Now, Carly and Mel, welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you both here. Your relationship is not on its last legs. I want to say that very clearly for the viewers, right? You're not coming in, Adam, please. Right. Beautiful. I love that. One thing I love about coaching, the difference with therapy and coaching is this. When you get injured, you go to a therapist and they bring you back to zero, right? Try to get me back to baseline. That's the job. I am injured and please rescue me from it. With coaching, I want to hit a new personal record. That's when you hire a good coach. Michael Jordan hires a coach, right? For his things, all the big ones. An athletic person, an Olympian wants to hire a good coach, take them to that absolute next level and win the gold. I want to help you guys win the gold in the relationship Olympics. Amazing. I appreciate it. Is that competitive enough? Absolutely. There you go. Does that appeal? Okay, good. Carly, for my last episode, you shared with me that you are avoidantly attached and you had said at the time that Mel was avoidantly attached. Mel, do you know that you have been pathologized as avoidantly attached here on the show? I'm a self-proclaimed avoidant. Even better. Yeah. Okay. I did not know that though. You did not know that. Okay, she was pretty open about it. I love that. It was a great, it was a fantastic episode. I highly recommend you check it out, right? You have reasons to fight at home. Um, show. Would you share a little bit about your relationship? How long have you been together? Kids, all of those components first, get started. I'll let you go ahead. Yeah, absolutely. So, so I had moved to Portland, Oregon. I live in Las Vegas most of the most of the time in the year. And I just moved into this new building and I walked in the elevator and I was like, who is that? You know, and it was Carly. She was taking groceries in and I asked if I could help her. This is about two years ago and she was, she said yes. And you know, when you meet somebody you can kind of tell there's like some chemistry or there's something there. And I definitely felt it and I asked her if I could take, take them up and she's like, no, she's just let me help her into the, into the elevator. Good answer for straight ahead. No, I had no, no thoughts in my head, you know, obviously, but she was like, yeah, you can help me in the elevator inside. I took them in there. That was two years ago and then we kept seeing each other for probably like five, six months. We never talked after that. I actually went into my, my apartment and I told my buddy, I was like, dude, I just saw the prettiest girl I've ever seen in Portland and it was Carly. Yeah, so fast forward. I saw her one day in the elevator. She had her two kids with her and I was like, this is my shot, right? I was like, I gotta talk to her, you know, so I pulled my phone out and I was like, hey, I'd love to hang out, you know, whatever. And she's like, yeah, give me your phone. And right as she took it, she's like, no, never mind. And hand it back to me. And I was like, it's never happened to him before in his life. Wow, obviously. Yeah, no, and she, I'm just like, I don't even know what to say. I didn't, I didn't even say anything. And the elevator door opened and she walked right out and I was like, the most important thing ever. Wow, yeah, literally. So I walked into the mail room and I just in my head, I'm like, what just happened? Like, my phone, like, I say something, like, what's going on? And then the door swung open and it was her and she's like, here, give me your phone, okay. What? And she's like, hurry and gave, gave me the number and she's like, I was dropping off my kids to their dad and I didn't want to be a weird interaction, you know, and that's how we met, an elevator. So interesting. Then took her on a date and we dated for a little bit and then we just started always spending time together. Yeah, we basically, so I have my kids 50, 50, and your schedule is a little bit more flexible with his daughter. But I fly to Vegas every other week, usually to spend time with him. And then he comes up to Portland whenever he can to spend time with my kids. So long distance and also not long distance at the same time. Yeah, we always make it work. Thankfully, we have lifestyles that are flexible enough where we can accommodate spending time with each other. So we're very blessed and thank you for that. It's only two hour flights. So, yeah, so it's a lot. Yeah. I want to fly back and forth over and over. Yeah, it is. It also gives you guys some gaps and some space. Not at all with each other. Yes, it is. Is that helpful? It's okay to say, yes, you know, at first, I think so. Now it's to the point where it's like you miss the other person. Okay. You're like, yeah, man, I can't go a whole week or more than a couple days. Yeah, it's funny like that week. It seems so much longer now that we're closer. I miss him after, you know, a day or two. I'm like, oh, it's just we're not having him in my daily routine or part of my life to tell him about my day. In the beginning, though, I think it was definitely helpful because we both need time to process our emotions sometimes and really kind of understand why we're feeling certain way. But now it's too long, a week is too long. Do you have kind of a crash about 24 to 48 hours after you separate? I do. I'm like major inside here. You said 20 more hours or like six hours. Wow. Yeah, I have like, I'm not an anxious person naturally at all. But whenever I leave him, it seems like there's an adjustment period where I feel anxious and I'm like, did that week go, okay, when am I going to seem again? And we're so spontaneous, we don't always have the plans I earned out right away. I know I'm going to seem again, obviously, but I don't know exactly when that's going to be. And so I just get an anxiety, you know, what is he doing? Like I want to hear about his day, what happened good, what happened bad. And that level of connection is delayed sometimes because, you know, we're both working. We have kids and we're busy. And so it's harder to feel connected. I think during those times, which causes me to have anxiety right off the get go when I leave. And then after about day two or day three, I usually kind of, you know, go back into my routine and I feel more at ease. But it's definitely a period after I leave him, I'm feeling anxious. I learned in graduate school, you never asked, how does that make you feel because you get shot for that. So what I want to ask you is this, that's a very vulnerable place to be, to feel like you are desiring somebody and almost in some ways needing somebody. Yeah. And that's a hard place for somebody who's had an avoidant past history to be because it can be embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. It can feel shameful. It's, yeah, I feel like I hit to my pride and ego like every time. It also can feel unsafe to need somebody because it could be, if he wasn't a good man, it could be weaponized against you. Yeah. And all of those can be swirling at the same time. Yeah. At the same time as you were also hoping that you could be closer to him and missing him. And all of those are at the same time, at the same exact moment, leading to the what just happened moments. Do you guys have more of those what just happened moments between you? How often does that take place? Or one of you does the like, give me a phone. Wait, no, never mind. Wait. Oh, Mac, how often do you guys have those moments together? Either one of you. Give me another example. Yeah, give me another. Absolutely. Yeah. Where the other person's behavior is just confusing to you. You see them take a step forward and then take a step back. And you're just really confused, but maybe you don't even know how to ask yet. I think it happens really like once a month, I would say once every other time every other time I see. I think in the beginning, it was a lot more often. Yeah. Me being in Las Vegas, like Las Vegas is the land of shiny objects. Yes. There's nightclubs. There's strip clubs. I mean, Portland has a lot more than Vegas, but I did not know that. That is the most in the world in the US. Wow, you went to Portland. I did not know that about Portland. I thought people were a lot more clothing. Yeah. No, absolutely not. But the naked bike ride. Yeah. But that's Vegas. Oh, yeah, there is but that's Vegas, right? Like it's yeah. People fly in and fly out and there's no like, it's a lot harder to connect, like have deep connections there. And so I think for her is a little bit scary in the beginning. You know, she came from a small town in Michigan and then moved out to Oregon by herself and it doesn't have a lot of family around her. And so I'm very outgoing. And that fuels me. Like I love being around people. Like I can go on the street right now and just talk to the homeless guy or the random dude running and that that like gives me like some energy, you know, and she's definitely not that way. And I think it was a little scary at first. It's like, hey, why don't you call me back or why don't you text me back so quick. And in my head, it's like, I'm just with John or Tommy or who have been down. I'll be done an hour or two hours. And so I think that's helped. But it's also the distances allowed me to fix that to where I can communicate. You know, ahead of time, like, hey, I'll text you or hey, this is where I'm going or I'll talk to you in like an hour, you know. I was just getting ready to ask you, how does it feel on your side as far as an intrusion, loss of autonomy, anything like that to have somebody pursuing you, saying, hey, I need some help regulating over here. I don't feel very good. How does that feel on your side? How are you perceiving it? You know what? Two years ago before me and her gotten a relationship. And I don't know if it's because we have the distance piece where it allowed us to both, at least for myself, is when those things happened, right? I think a lot of people are like, why are you asking me that? Yeah. Don't you know I would never do that. You know, like those type of things. It's like a very, I don't want to say gaslighty because I think that's an overused word, but it's provocation. There you go. You push it back. You know, and I'm in the point in my life where it's like, she wouldn't ask those things if she didn't care. It's a good way to look at me. I'm like, why is she asking that or why does she need that validation, I guess. So that does come up. Yeah. It used to. Now I think it's like, I mean, there's always moments where I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, how the hell you asking me that? Yep. This is so two years ago. Yes. Yes. But I have to like stop myself for a second and reduce my ego and just be like, she needs help or she needs that text or that call because she wants to fill love. She loves me. And she wants that reciprocation. You know, I like that. That's good, but that's the grown. That's the growth. Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. So there is some discomfort there for you, especially catches you on a bad day. Yeah. Come. Yeah. We've had a bad day. If there's a bad day, it turns into something. Yeah. How often does that happen? Not often. It doesn't sound like it's that often, but no, not often. Once every couple months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So once a quarter. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. We can still fine tune that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I knew enough about him when I first started dating him to know that he's very much like a free spirit, very independent, doesn't like to report to people. And so in the beginning, I would just repress that reassurance that I needed in a sense. And I didn't feel comfortable enough to ask him questions. Yeah. But then it would boil over in other areas, right? So I'd feel resentment or I would feel, you know, like I wasn't being treated fairly in the relationship because I wasn't getting that communication that I wanted and needed. Yeah. And so that's something that I've worked through as well is if I feel something feeling comfortable enough to ask him about it, even though it might be uncomfortable for him or might put him in a situation where he has to explain himself, I still have learned just to say it to him and we'll figure it out. So this is good. One thing that I want to flag, how much do you know about oxytocin, the bonding hormone and all of that? A little bit. You flush my contact quite a bit, actually. Yeah. How much do you know about it? Most people know nothing. So, I mean, I know like probably the high level, you know, what it is, how connection, make your body release it. So you're like that. You're head of the vast majority of people. Any more than that, probably. I'll explain a little bit then for the people at home that are following along as well. But the oxytocin bonding hormone is one of the primary drivers of the sense of belonging and connection. It's a very tribal thing that says we belong together. It's the softer intimacy piece. Vaiser Preston is about, we solve challenges together, right? You've got your one sales team. You told me, you guys have a lot of Vaiser Preston together. We hit targets together, we achieve things together. That's incredible. And men and women both need that. Men have more receptors for it typically, but women have a lot for it. We know that with avoidant attachments style, it's characterized by having very low oxytocin bonding through childhood, very low intimacy. And it becomes somewhat abrasive to experience it until you kind of cultivate it in. Sounds like both of you walked in and started cultivating that oxytocin really well in this relationship with excellent. That's why you're having those bonding pieces, but it's also why you're having the hangover and the drop off piece. We know that as you separate, if you don't have much oxytocin through the rest of your life, it does begin to plummet. And if you only have it primarily with one person, especially primary focus, it really increases your anxiety because it starts to say, I'm never going to get this anywhere. What if something happens and they walk away? And then I don't get it anywhere. That's one big challenge. That's how I feel. You will fall off a cliff. You will fall off a cliff and go through withdrawals, essentially. The female system is especially designed to crave oxytocin and then to output that oxytocin to everybody around you is what it's designed to do. You're supposed to take in oxytocin to be very sensitive to it. And then it creates this compulsive affectionate state to your children, to your partner, to your community, to the people you served, to the people at work. And it's supposed to just radiate from you at that point. It's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't feel wonderful when you're going through the withdrawals. So how do you recommend that you supplement yourself with additional oxytocin after separating from your partner? It's a really great question. And I love the term supplement. There's a lot of people that ask, can I just shoot it up my nose? Have time. Right. And there is an oxytocin spray. You can shoot up your nose. And the research indicates that actually does not solve the problem. It can give you short-term little boosts of little pieces, but you'd have to be huffing that thing. You'd have to talk to a doctor, but every 10, 15 minutes, you have to be huffing it. It's not good and it's not going to do what you need it to do. Ultimately, what you have to do, and I'll use avoidant terms, you have to diversify your oxytocin portfolio. Realistically, one partner cannot do all of it. You guys do need to have about three relationships that are really feeding you high levels of oxytocin. They can be with some of your children. I was going to say my daughter. My daughter, for men, daughter, and everything. Oh my goodness. And for the rest of your life, your daughter will always be a source of oxytocin for you. That is a big, big piece. A partner is going to bring that to you in a massive way. Men are very touch-starved, and we are supposed to be getting oxytocin from our male friends and our male family as well. We get very little from most of our male friends and family through the rest of the Western world. We've stoned terribly. Your partner will give you a tremendous amount of it. Your daughter will as well, but you're going to have to build a third relationship as well that really fosters that. If you can do five great, but three is really good enough. One thing that I flag with a lot of single moms is often the energy required for your basic life does not allow you to stop long enough to drink up that oxytocin sometimes with your kids because you're go, go, go, go. Is that something you've been? 100%. Yeah, that's how I feel. I'm constantly thinking about what I have to do and take care of whether it's appointments or cleaning or just routines for the children working, obviously, phone calls. So yeah, it's definitely hard to just take time to, I guess, feel myself and really understand what my mind is thinking and what my body is feeling. Yeah. So one problem to flag is we know that mothers who have either high levels of trauma or stress, whatever it is epigenetically, if you have very low oxytocin, your children are more likely to be born. The research indicates with less receptors for oxytocin and a heightened sensitivity to cortisol to keep them alive in a very difficult environment. Their brain is, their system is going to be born and then shaped and say, I have to survive. I don't have the luxury of connection, but you can also begin really correcting their system by flooding it with oxytocin. There is no upper limit for it and the more you can give them, the better their immune system becomes, the more they suppress chronic pain. The reason you become so anxious is when oxytocin goes down, GABA also goes down and GABA is one of our major, it's the breaks for the system to really suppress cortisol and keep it low and regulate it. Without GABA, it's just an unregulated wildfire running through your system. Think of it that way. So as your system comes down, your system says, hey, that's the one person I get oxytocin with. He's in Vegas. He could forget me. Where is he? What's going on? I'm out of control. Now I'm naked and afraid and he could be anywhere doing God knows what. Your system is supposed to feel that way. Actually, right now, building that oxytocin with your kids and then with maybe one really good friend that you can connect with would really balance that out, but you're going to have to do it intentionally. How do you cultivate oxytocin in those relationship leisure? Just relaxing. This is going to be death for you. Yeah. You're going to have to schedule and compartmentalize your leisure times. So as your system comes down and is out of stress mode into what's called parasympathetic rest and digest and connect mode, shifting into that and then spending 20 minutes with somebody loving and caring. I'm speaking slowly on purpose right now because that's that nervous system. We've actually been a bit in our sympathetic nervous systems during this conversation. High-frontic energy. Now we're shifting into the parasympathetic rest and digest. How do you do? Yeah. I already see you twitching. How do you do with shifting into that rest and digest nervous system state? How comfortable is that for you? I feel comfortable. I think my biggest fear is just not knowing what to expect. Like what we're going to, for example, what you're going to ask next. It doesn't allow my brain to function at the higher level to keep up with the conversation. And so when I shift into that, it just makes me feel slower. Here's what I'm going to say. I don't buy it that your system is going to not function very well. Okay. Here's what I'll say. Your system actually will function better. What happens when we're in our sympathetic nervous system state is actually the blood flow is weakened into the areas for linguistics and thinking. You actually have, you're playing with way less capacity than you normally would otherwise. But your system, because it's pumping full of cortisol and adrenaline, you're reacting faster. That doesn't mean that you're better. It means you're reacting faster. It doesn't mean that the thoughts are actually forming properly or correctly. Correct. You're actually probably 5 to 10 IQ points lower than you actually are. However, the cortisol and the adrenaline keeps you targeted to threat detection. And that's it. That's why you think you're sharper because you can detect threats faster. You absolutely will detect threats slower in your parasympathetic. You're supposed to. You're not supposed to be scanning for threats in that mode. - That actually brings up a really good point because we had a argument or non-argument, a conversation about this last week. We were on a hike and I was woken up early. I had to take my mom to the airport. Long story short, I was a little bit grumpy and he wanted to go on a hike. The big active guy. So I muster up the courage to get ready and go on a hike with this man, even though I didn't want to, but sometimes you have to compromise in a relationship. So we're out at this hike and now he's trying to have in-depth intellectual conversations with me at 9 a.m. after I didn't sleep. And I'm just giving him a basic response just to hopefully end the conversation. And he looks at me and he's like, don't talk to me. Like one of your employees talk to me. - In the worst sentence. - You need to turn off the boss talk, you know? - Because I think it was because of that reason. You know, I'm heightened in a sense where I'm on edge. I don't feel the best I didn't sleep well. So my throat is all it's heightened. And I'm just giving a blanket response essentially to move through the conversation and move through the activity that I didn't want to do. - At what point in that day did you say explicitly to him, look, I haven't slept well and I'm very stressed out and I know I'm not at my best. At what point did you explicitly look at him and say that? - I didn't say it until I was too late. - Until it was too late after the fight. - You just performed because you said earlier, he wanted to go on a hike. So you just have to make compromises. - 100% - But at no point did you actually let him know a compromise was being made. You secretly did it. - I should have said that before I even got up. Like, hey, I really just don't feel up to going on a hike right now. Or if we do go on a hike, can we keep a low energy, low conversation? - It was a hotter night. - Right, even better you could have said, look, I don't feel very good. If you want to go on a hike, you're carrying me the whole way. - Perfect. - Like, that's it, right? - Yeah. - And you look like you're jacked, you probably could have. - Well, that's why I told her I was like, you didn't even have to go. I'm fine going by myself. I do it every day, so. - Here's Matt, he was like, what did he say? - Here's a difference. Actually, both of you just-- - I was just gonna stay at home, just stay home, if you're gonna enjoy it. - But both of those responses are actually the problem. - Yeah. - I'm not gonna say anything at all and just secretly compromise on my side. And the first response is, hey, look, you don't even have to go at all. Actually, both of those are the problem. - Yeah. - Yeah. - True. - Both of those-- - You guys are trying to do what's called solo solo. I'm gonna solve this problem alone inside my head so he doesn't know there's a problem. I'm gonna solve this problem by myself right now for her. - Oh, boy, right here. - Actually, what you guys need to do is ask each other questions. Hey, I'm not feeling my best right now, but I'm still happy to go on a walk with you. I just know I won't be at my best. Would you still like to go? And if so, what can we do? Question, don't solve it. - Yeah. - Solved together. Hey, instead of, well, you don't even have to go, right? You're trying to solve it and push her out and that actually makes her system worse. Because now what's happening is I told him there's a problem and he's rejecting me. I shouldn't have said anything 'cause now he feels bad. - Did I say that? I think I said that. - Yeah, we both talk. Literally talking about it. - Right, so here instead, hey, you know what? And if so, what can we do to help you have a good time? Ask her that. Don't solve it. But here's the problem. Sympathetic nervous system turns off curiosity and asking questions. It goes into fast problem solving, solve the threat. - Yeah. - And you guys probably didn't grow up in families that taught you to ask questions and problem solve together, did you? - Hell no. - Yeah, that's a whole cultivated skill set. You guys are successful because you solve problems fast by yourself. - Yeah. - But a relationship is a totally different skill set. It demands the parasympathetic nervous system which requires curiosity and asking questions together. Does that make sense? - Yeah, absolutely. - Let me stop here and ask you something. Who are you waiting on? A partner to open up or to finally get it? The right person to come along? We're heading into mammal anxiety season. When shorter days push every nervous system toward threat. And the longer you wait, the deeper this pattern runs. So the loop plays out again with one of you chasing one person pulling away or the same story with someone new. And every month that you wait, your body learns that closeness isn't safe. Here's the good news. When one person changes the pattern, the old dance can't stay the same. That's the work my coaches do. And right now in the biggest coaching sale of the year, the reverse the damage sale, coaching is 30% off and our small group attachment training programs are 20% off, but for a very limited time. I only work with people who are committed to change and ready to work on their own attachment instead of waiting on someone else to change. This work asks you to show up first. Coaching or a small group attachment training program, it all starts with one short application right now down in the show notes. If it's a good fit, one of my relationship strategists will set up a free consult to map out your first move. And if not, we'll still send you resources. So applying costs to nothing. Someone has to go first, so let it be you. And now back to the episode. There's another thing that we have to talk about, which is context. Context is currency for avoidantly attached people. It is currency, it is safety, it is everything. Context, you said something interesting earlier, right? Why is she asking me this? Do you ever actually ask her that question? Do you ever ask her, "Hey, why are you asking me this?" - Yeah, now, yeah. - Yeah. - Nice, okay. - It does not. - I mean, I had to like sit with some of those things in the first year, second year, or not the second year, but first year. And I'll be 46 this next month. So I've had a lot of relationships that have failed. Some have been good, some have been bad. And I wanna make sure that I'm treating this relationship the right way, and learning and growing, and showing up for her how she needs me to show up. And also how I need myself to show up. And so when those things are happening, those conversations, I really do think that distance has helped. - Oh yeah, for two avoiding people, yes. - For sure, that's ideal. - Because I could sit by myself and think about, okay, why is she asking that? - Yes. - And in the past, I would be like, why are you asking me that? - He'd be annoying, I don't know. - I would very push away the motion, right? And like, how dare you ask me? - Yes. - Kind of, you know, savagery a little bit, but those times allowed me to sit there and say, okay, if I keep responding that way, I'm gonna go down the same road, I've been down in the past, and I think it makes her suppress. 'Cause you don't wanna answer somebody if they're always like, why are you asking me that? Okay, well, I'm just not gonna bring it up again. I'm just gonna hide those emotions. And so I would ask her, like, what made you, with my tongue, with a good tone, right? Like, hey, what are you going through? What happened that made you feel that way? Like, you wouldn't need to, like, you need attention, you need affection, you need like, just to share some feelings. Like, did you, is there something that happened that made you ask that question? Like, and so. - So you're learning curious questions, which is good. - Yes. - That's good. Let's add a component. So, level one is to say nothing, and just try to figure out why she asked you that question, right? Why is she asking me this question? What could have gone wrong? I have to solve it, right? Level two is, why are you asking me that? Like, what did I do? What happened? Like, why are you angry? Why are you accusing me, right? We call this litigation, right? Litigation in a courtroom. Level three is to say, what's making you ask me that? That's an improvement. That is, the curiosity is there, which actually means you feel, I'm using a word here, avoidant men and avoidant people in general don't like this word, but safe. You feel safe. - 100%. - Safe, it's the word, but you feel safe enough to ask her a question because you're not gonna get your head bit off. Level four, providing context before a question is asked. So I call it front loading context. - Like for me to. - Yeah, I'm gonna give you an example really quick, and then I'll give you an example. I had to learn this myself and my marriage with my wife. If you ask a question, the other person is gonna perceive why did they ask me that question? And it starts the whole thing all over again, because now they're wondering why you asked and how I'm gonna answer in a way that keeps me safe. Front loading context says this, hey, you're asking me where I am, right? I want to help you feel loved and safe, and at the same time, that question kinda hits me a little weird. I'm not sure why you're asking. So that's me off a little, but I wanna give you the information you're looking for. So what is it that's leading you to ask me that? Context, hey, here's where I'm at, and I care about you. Hey, here's why I'm asking you this question, because then it can hit her and she can go, oh, that question accidentally set him off. I didn't even mean to do that. I just wanna know he's okay. Number one, and number two, it feels good that he actually cares about me, explicitly stated that's actually a very useful tool. The biggest problem I have with most people, when you start fighting, the reason we fight is to make the other person care. Anger is always a secondary feeling. I'm scared, I'm sad, or I'm hurt, and you don't care, so I'm going to make you care. Here's the anger. - Yeah. - So anytime anybody's angry in this relationship, it's because they think the other person doesn't care. If you can stop and say, do you feel right now like you have to make me care? Because I honestly do. Does it feel like you have to make me? The other person's gonna go, well, no, I mean, they're gonna cool down instantly and they go, well, no, I don't need you to care. They're gonna play the game. They're gonna preen and play the game. But hey, you know what? I want you to know I do care about this. That's actually how you just saw me. anger that fast. I want you to know that I do care about you and I care about this. I'm going to help you. I'm just not sure how to do that yet. Frontload contacts. Cool. And then you say, what's the best way for me right now to help you feel like you're okay? What's the best way for me to help you feel like things are all right? They're probably going to go blank. Have you guys ever had that when someone asked you an emotional question like this staring at you like this and you're just like, yeah. So that's that overload. Actually what that is, you don't have fight, you don't have flight and falling people pleasing isn't working. So your system goes into what's called dorsal vagal shutdown. Your system says, I don't know if I'm safe or not. I don't know if something bad's about to happen. I can't predict it. I am blind and scared. I'm going to freeze and lock down and see what happens next and just try to just write out the damage. Your system goes totally blank at that point. That's a shutdown. At that point, you pause everybody pauses. If you guys see each other, do you know how can you tell when she goes blank? Can you tell when she freezes? Can you tell when he freezes? Not really. You have a hard time. Okay. Does his face go blank? Does he just like stop speaking? Does he go single words? No, he just shuts down and just doesn't he won't look at me. He won't talk to me. He won't look at you and won't talk to you. Yeah. Okay. And I'm guessing you just you detect that pretty fast. Oh, yeah. So what you said a moment ago was no, I have a hard time figure out when he shut down, but you actually just told me no, you detect it fast. I think I know when he shuts down, but I don't know what causes him to shut down still. Okay. There we go. Yeah. Perfect. She'll be like, you know, you're shutting down. But I don't understand what caused him to get to that point a lot of times. I think I'm like, did I say something wrong or is it something? Do you start asking immediately or do you start trying to be a detective? Well, we have this thing that we we have a we've had an ongoing, I don't want to say issue because that's not the right word. But I do a lot of check-ins with him. Yeah. Like are you okay? If I notice his energy is off or if he is more reserved than usual, I'm always like, are you okay? It's something is something wrong. What's going on? And it's gotten to the point now where he gets really frustrated and really annoyed in a sense because I do. I ask it probably every day, but it's it's more so just because I never want to push him to the point of getting to that shut down point. If you know, if something's going on, I I never want it to be held within or I don't want him to feel resentment towards me. And so I do a lot of check-ins to just be like, is everything good? Are you okay? Okay. We need to take that off your plate. Yeah. Which is funny because he's also very good at voicing his opinions and if there's a problem. Yeah, but you're trying to check in. Always tell me that there's a problem. But I think that shut off is the scariest thing for me because I always want to problem solving like fix the issues that we have. So when he gets to that shut off point, it's terrifying for me because I'm like, well, now I really don't know what to do. Do you feel like you have failed when you shut when he shuts down? Is there a failure? Yeah, I feel like I feel like I'm at a loss. Like I truly just don't know what to do from here. I don't know how to get him out of it. So there's there's two pieces though. Do you feel like you have failed when he shuts down? Internally? I don't know. No, I don't think I think it's just like I want to fix it. I want to fix the problem. Okay, so it's not a failure. It's something bad could happen. Yeah, it's like. Okay, here's some context to it. Yeah, yeah, please. It's typically it's incorrect me if I'm wrong. It's typically over the phone and it's usually a tone thing. And so, yeah, like I'm getting a hundred texts, a hundred calls. Like if my phone is on right now, you'd hear beep and like const, I mean not exaggerating probably until 8 p.m. 9 p.m. Okay. And so like a lot of times when she calls me, you know, always answer, right? So make the sound so bad. Yeah, we communicate a lot throughout the day. And so if we're not together, she'll usually ask, like, "Hey, are you okay?" Everything okay? Are we okay? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so in my mind, I'm like, why are you asking me that? Yeah, I just talked to you 10 minutes ago. What do you mean? What do you mean? Like what? Like do you need attention? Like some, you know, I'll usually ask her that. Like do you need like attention? I think it triggers in my mind that I'm not focused or maybe my conversation isn't focused on her. I think he takes it as he's not, he doesn't feel like he's doing a good enough job in the relationship. Yeah, correct. Or in the conversation. Not in the relationship in the conversation. So in my head, I'm like, man, I'm distracted. So let me, sometimes I get frustrated, but sometimes like kind of just a flagged flag in my head to be like, okay, I'm distracted by this other things, you know, work stuff or whatever. So stop for a second and figure it out. Sometimes it's, but for her, I don't know. Are you trying not to say something right now? No, you'll look. No, I think that the more I've done it, I can tell his brain is trying to take it in a way that's not negative. And so he, he does that distinction between being distracted and being present in our conversation. I can feel the switch on the phone when he's like, okay, wait, maybe I do need to like focus more on the conversation. But I still feel the need to check in whenever I hear the tone is off or I feel like I think it is maybe just like I don't feel like a priority in a sense or I don't feel like I'm being listened to when I'm talking about my day or there's other things that are more important. There's two different things to pull out here. One is it is perfectly valid to want to be attended to and attuned is actually the word. It's perfectly fine to want to be attuned and have someone attuned with you. That's a normal healthy social behavior of, hey, I am invested in you. Could you please invest in me so we can share this moment. That's perfectly valid. And another thing is also happening is when you're not feeling attuned and when you're feeling disconnection, you also feel then unsafe. So both are firing off. Makes sense? Yes. You have every right to want his attention and to snap your fingers under his nose when he's not paying attention. You have every right. I'll show you a better way to do that. 100%. 100%. Yeah, just do that in my head. Do it into the phone. 100%. You have every right to do that. Number one. And number two, we also want to reduce the anxiety. So there's less friction for both of you at the same time. Yeah. Okay. You're not in the practice of having this feeling because you haven't felt this safe with somebody before. I've never felt a safe before. Correct. I've never felt this anxious before. That's that's both are true. Yeah. You've never felt this safe before. And therefore you've never felt this unsafe before either. And that's the uncertainty you're trying to navigate here as am I safe when I'm not unguarded? Yeah. But we want to do is outsource the majority of your fear and stress to him. That's actually the reason you get a man at all. That's why you get a man. His job is to absorb your stress and fear. That is his job. So when you say if I get into my parasympathetic nervous system, I won't be responding to threats as fast. Correct. That is his job now. His job is to respond to your threats for you and to be hyper attentive to threats around you so that you don't have to. Now you're not always with him granted. But that's actually how that's that's the ticket we have to do. Nice. That's that's the door we need to go through. Will he always be there for me so I can completely relax into that is the question your nervous system's asking right now. That's the question that that's what it's trying to determine. Can I drive him away? Is he going to get bored and leave? Is he going to do something and screw it up? Yeah, yeah. When would this break? Because if it's going to break, you needed to break now. 100% and that's that's the game. So that's ultimately the question that's in front of us. What we need to determine is how do we make sure your system has proof not just believes but has proof that you are safe enough to truly let go and enter the parasympathetic rest and digest state and then not be afraid there because you're dipping in and then coming out and being afraid and dipping in and doing this and and that's that's the whiplash you're feeling. We want you to be able to go into it, immerse into it and then when you need to step back into your active state, the operator mode, we want you to be able to comfortably switch between the two. Yeah, it's really interesting because I think about it logically, right? Of course. And he does nothing wrong. You know, he's fully transparent about everywhere that he's going. He's so communicative. You know, he calls me checks in with me. He's so reassuring and loving. There's nothing he does wrong. And so when I feel that way, it's so frustrating for me because I'm like, why do I feel on edge right now or why am I questioning him? Do you feel like a crazy domain in girlfriend? I feel insane. I actually feel insane. And so then, you know, I have girlfriends that they experience this all the time. And I'm always like, what is wrong with you? Most women live in this all the time. Like my friends, like, what is going on? You are normal and you are healthy and you are emotionally starved and you have a void and attachment style and you have a distant relationship, a long distance relationship, which is great for avoiding people at first and then does become a problem. You have an avoidant partner who is not doing everything perfect and he never will because no person ever will. There's always going to be bumps. Yeah. And your system is primed right now to believe every little bump is 10 times worse than it is because you're living under existential threat all the time. Yeah. If I relax, me and my kids will die. Yeah. That's what your system is telling you. It's supposed to be telling you. That's avoidant attachment. And you were probably born primed for this from your mother and raised in it. So that's normal. There's nothing wrong with you and you're not crazy. Is it causing challenges? Absolutely. Is it something that we can resolve? Absolutely. This can be resolved. That makes sense actually because I do think about that a lot like with my kids, you know, this relationship, but we both have invested so much time and energy and effort into it. Yeah, and that's something I always go back to. I'm like, not as it worth it because obviously it's worth it But what am I taking away from my kids like are they going to be okay if this all falls apart? What's going to happen to my family? I think about that very very often Have you ever sat down with him and explicitly asked him for an exact list of what would make him fire you as his girlfriend? So so there's so there's something playing out here called emotional impermanence, which Do you know what object permanence is with babies, right? Do you know what object permanence is? Yeah, okay, some of the people at home may not so I'm gonna try it this way So object permanence with a baby when they're born they have to cultivate it. This is a ring a Baby when the ring goes away for the first few months of life doesn't know the ring is still there And then you bring it back and poof it exists again This is one reason we play the game of peekaboo is to teach babies object permanence and eventually what you want You just put the object down you put a blanket on it the baby crawls over and they'll you'll see them thinking You've seen this and they pull the blanket off and behold it's there and your baby has learned object permanence It's something that's built in the brain now when we have attachment challenges as kids We have emotional impermanence as long as I can see right now in front of me that you are smiling and Happy and you love me I have proof that you care about me and therefore I am safe and the moment I get on a plane Or you walk in the other room or you're at work I no longer have visibility on whether or not you love me and now all I have is markers for example How fast do you text me? Are you responding to me? Are you attuned to me? Are you just going? Uh-huh? Uh-huh? Uh-huh in a conversation with me or are you engaged emotionally with me? All I have is markers to see if you still love me or not You were cultivated in childhood to believe that your pay or caregivers would be happy and smiling then they would leave the room Mm-hmm and then they would come back not happy and smiling Yeah, and you had to be ready for the day they came back angry pissed off scared Too busy for you This is a learned behavior that benefited you it's not something wrong with you It's a brilliant adaptation for your childhood. Yeah, it's a terrible adaptation for a relationship where a man loves you Because the rain is always there. Yeah, his love for you is always there But when it's invisible you panic. That's all that's all that's happening So we need to give you emotional permanence. There's a few ways to do that It has to be cultivated and trained over a few years actually So this is going to last for a few years getting consistently better But when I ask you have you ever actually sat down with him and said what would make you leave me? No, I would love to hear that. No, we need to do that you guys need to do that at some point probably not here today Well, we actually could it is a so here's we could do a bit, but here's the thing. What would make you leave me? And find a different woman to replace me number one I think I know maybe I Think I know is the problem you should know right what would make you cheat on me? I think I know that one too. I think I know But I think what if you don't Carly? What if you don't yeah? What if you don't Carly? What if there's something that happened today and you didn't know it? It was on on your list What would make you angry at me but not leave me or cheat on me? What would make you annoyed with me? But not be even angry at me You need these levels so that you know where you are If this is your relationship box to play in Where are you safe? You don't know. Yeah, you have no idea. You have ideas maybe But but you don't really know So you need to know where your boundaries are so that when you wake up in the morning you go What if he's out there right now having sex with a pretty girl in Vegas? There's no pretty girls in there. What if he is what if he's having a bad day and I say the wrong thing And he doesn't want to talk to me anymore What if he's bored of me and I don't realize it? Where is his mood? I don't know You need to run a checklist in your own head Have I done any of the things? I have not done any of the things I'm safe. Wait, and that's healthy to think like that was a checklist absolutely You have to but it has to be a checklist that he has explicitly given you That you actually believe is the real checklist because if you think they're secret menu items that you can absolutely hit That he hasn't warned you about or he forgot to tell you or he didn't know but it's secretly built in Now I've rubbed them if he's because he need to do the same for me Absolutely, you're very intuitive. That's exactly right. We all need fail conditions When would you leave me when would you sever contract with me we all need to know that so that we don't have to wonder Yeah, and if it's I would never cheat on you because I would never allow myself to do that It would break my heart to do that So I would absolutely end the relationship with you before that ever got to that point Now you can say this is character-based trust. It's not if it's not feelings-based trust You are only loyal to me because the feelings are good. That's a problem. Yeah, you are loyal to me because you're talking about this The cheating price. That's good. That's fantastic. Yeah, I would never but what would make you leave me? What would make you angry at me? Those are the things we need. Is he mad at me? Nope, I've done zero of the things on the checklist I love what you said about feeling versus character That's so true. That's the other component that we need to start tracking But your your system as a child didn't know that you could do that That's the that's actually the context that was missing as a child. I can't trust my caregivers because of their character No, your brain said I can't trust my character Giver my caregivers because they're human and all humans run on feelings and now your system is hyper attuned to Follow his feelings his feelings right now. Are you a measurement of safety? Gradually over time we want to shift that to character-based safety I am safe because of who he is now to do that. You need to be sharing a lot more context about who you are When you answer things to her. It's not I am at this location I'm sharing it with you right now on GPS so that you can see based on the chip you implanted Sure, he hasn't chip implanted in your neck Right while you were sleeping it needs to be character-based. So actually when you reassure her it's character-based reassure Yeah, I think you know over the last We definitely had to build that But I think I've reassured her so many times. Yeah that or put You know investments in that emotional bank account. Yeah Does it come up for sure, but I think Correct me from wrong, but I think she knows like and I've told her this I Wouldn't she on you not because how I feel about you necessarily like I don't want she on you because that just I was gonna swear it just now. Please that that screws up me my spirit my life my my energy like I would walk away from that and feel like Terrible like about myself and a percent in my career in who I lead I lead people like Man, I couldn't do that if I was Not in tune and in alignment with my own Energy in my own spirit, you know what you just shared is what we call personal context You just shared in a very personal way versus an intellectual way Yeah, a lot of avoidantly attached people hyperfixie into intellectual Answers because there's no personal context and it's safe to share intellectually That's me sharing personal information and especially personal context is what builds character-based trust Scale of one to ten. How safe do you feel after hearing him say that again? You've already heard and you've already heard that before I feel very safe But you feel even more safe hearing it every time he says that I feel great Correct That right there is the number one best way you can ever reassure her and it is something that lasts That does not begin to go away Emotional permanence starts to form when it's character-based. That is the only antidote to emotional impermanence. It's not right away. It actually has to be fostered Mm-hmm. I can trust his character. Yeah, his character does not change based on how he feels How many conflicts have you watched him go through where his character was tested? Good has that made you trust him more? You know, yeah, it has a really weird way I think when you first are dating someone you have this idea of their character, right? Yeah, you don't really know them, but you put them on this pedestal almost and you think the best of this person You think they're so amazing and then as you get to know someone you peel back all these layers of an onion and you learn that You know, they're not necessarily as great as you thought they were they struggled with these different areas and We've been put through some tests where I Learned more about Mal and it was very difficult in a sense of we had to sit with it and repair the relationship and Repair our bond and trust with each other But since then it has made us 10 times stronger. I was just gonna ask you said they're not as great as you thought they were Let me ask you. Do you really think he's not as great as you thought he was? I think he's better. That's the answer. I don't want it. I think he's better That's the component and in it it allowed me to see him more as a human instead of just this shiny object on a pedestal. Yes It made me appreciate him so much more and understand him more Here's the answer I want to start giving her when you reassure her Don't say yes, babe. We're okay. Charlie You know that I'm a good man and if things were not okay, I would tell you that's the proper answer from now on Does that make sense? Absolutely, and you're not correcting her saying You know I'm a good man. Charlie, you know that I'm a good man. And I would tell you if things were not okay. Now, at the same time, you can absolutely get his attention. Here's how once you start doing it. Status report, you're very quiet. How you doing? That's how you check in with him from now on. Status report. - Just like light hearted. - Just bark it. Status report. - Legendate. - That's it. - That's it. - But honestly, that's it. Because here's the thing, you're stepping in and saying, "I don't need you to rescue me. "I need information." And that's really what you need. You don't need him to drop everything. You go, "Oh, sweet little bunny." - No, not at all. - You need context so that you are understanding and safe. Hey, check in status report. Status report, you're quiet. How you doing? - Yeah, and normally if he gives me context, he'll be like, "Oh, I just had this really bad phone call." Or this happened at the beginning of the day. I'm like, "Oh, that makes so much sense now." And now I feel 100% right. - How often does he deflect and say, "I'm fine." How often do you find that happens? - I would say about 75% of the time. - He deflects 75%. - Yeah, well like during the day, I've learned-- - That's a lot. - That is a lot. - I've learned that I've learned with Mel during the day. He's in the midst of talking to so many people and healing so much business. - Absolutely. - That if I ask him during the day, it's not a good time to get the details. So 75% during the day, he will deflect. Now if I ask him later at night when he's decompressing and he's relaxing, he's kind of turned his brain off, then he's almost always very honest and transparent about how his day was or what's going on. - But a deflection makes things a little worse, right? Because now you are not getting the information you need. And now the risk is potentially growing. What am I not seeing is the question there. - Exactly. And so then I, you know, healing up the phone midday and I'll just be thinking about it all day. I'm like, "Huh, I wonder why he was off." I could tell that something's going on, but he didn't tell me the details. - Yeah, status report, you seem off. - Yeah, that's it. That's actually all you say, status report. You seem off. And then you just stare at him. Like over text, you stare at him. - Yeah. And sometimes I'll say, you know, I'm handling something and we'll talk about it later. And that's perfect. Like, okay, something did happen. I know for sure something happened, but you're gonna tell me later. And so then I don't think about it or fester on it all day. - How important is it to you on a scale of one to 10? - Yeah. - That your woman be happy and feel safe. - Oh, safe, 10 out of 10. - Yeah, I'm more happy now. - I mean, I have a different opinion on the happiness part because I can't, I don't think it's my responsibility to make her happy. - Sure, but how important to you is it that she be happy? - 10 out of 10. - Yeah, there you go. - That she is happy. - That's correct. - And whether it's her doing the things she loves or having relationships with her kids, like haunt 10 out of 10. - Now it's definitely a large part of her responsibility to be happy, but how much of a failure do you feel like if she's not happy? - Ooh, it's a good question. - Probably like a six or seven. - Yeah. - Yeah, I would. - That's good and normal. - Yeah, I don't know. - I would think like part of it, part of my brain is like you need to figure that part out. - Yeah. - And then the seven, the 70% is like, how can I facilitate her to be able to figure that out? Is it stress from her kids or is it stress from work? Is it like, I don't know, I want her to feel safe. I don't want her to feel taken care of. And I'm missing something for myself. Am I missing like a place where I'm making her feel okay to feel safe? - There we go, right there. That's the dividing line. Your happiness is your own responsibility and your job is to make her safe enough to be able to pursue her happiness. That's really the dividing line here. So if you're not happy, you will feel like you're failing because you will run a checklist and say, have I somehow failed to make her feel safe enough. And that's the initial thing that hits. So you're on happiness, you're fear, you're nervousness and you're anxiousness. Hits him first as an internal accusation to himself that he has failed. - That makes sense. - So when you're looking at that and saying, well, I'm just stressed out all day quietly on my side, that's not good for him either. It's not good for you either. So we need to reduce that to zero. Makes sense? - Yes. - And that's probably, does that make you feel uncomfortable already? - No. - Good. - He does check-ins with me often. Like, how are you happy? How are you feeling? - Yeah. - I hear you. - I'm so happy. - That's happy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - But you're daily afraid, right? So. (laughing) - You're daily afraid, you're not. - It's not daily. It's one's every two weeks. It's all very curious. - Uh-huh. - What we want to ultimately do is just get you to a place where you don't have to feel like you're guessing anymore. - Yeah. - Grab him and drag him to a halt and stop the whole day to try to get a status report either. - Yeah. - 100%, I honor that. That's the dividing line between you and a demanding angry princess. Is you're not stopping him and making him do that. You're not making your entire feeling and experience his problem. - No, never. - That is, so don't allow yourself in that area to start thinking, I'm a crazy lady, right? - Okay, I got it. - That's not you. What we want is to build a structure where you can step in, get a download of 20 seconds of contacts, get exactly what you need to be fully at peace for the rest of the day, and let him continue on with the rest of his day so he can get a full download later at that night. - Sounds great. - Status report? You seem quiet. We, you know, are you good? - Yeah. - That's it. Status report, you seem blank, are you good? Now over you, there's something called emotional dishonesty. And we men do it all the time. You do it all the time. I'm good. No, I'm good, I'm fine. - We gotta be cool. - We gotta be. - Part of it, honestly, is good and healthy. That's normal because when you and I, man, 20,000 years ago, hunter gatherer style, you and I are out hunting a mammoth and like you get like scraped on the arm. - My arm bleeding. - And I look over and I go, are you good? You're not gonna go, oh man, Adam, my arm is so out, she, I don't know if I could do this. I feel sad, I feel, no, you're supposed to be like, I am functional, let us continue. - Yeah. - And it's a good form of dissociation. That is actually good dissociation. You're supposed to do that. However, we live in the age of text messaging where your gatherer can text you at any moment when you are about to fight to the death with this mammoth and she could be like, where are you right now? Like, hey, just roughly speaking, when do you think you'll be back from the hunt? - When do you think the mammoth gonna be dead? - Right, right, like, how did he feel about that mammoth? Well, he's like right in front of me right now, can I call you back? So that's a big part of the problem and a lot of women are experiencing that very abrasively 'cause you're not supposed to have to see that side of him. You're not supposed to have to see the blood and guts misery like that sort of piece. And there's a lot of women who actually would probably be out there with him like, hey buddy, I see where you are 'cause I'm on the mammoth's back, I got you. Right, like that's the avoidant woman piece of like, I'm not letting you go alone, I'm going with you. Yeah, 100% and that's amazing. We want to soften that and we want to give you the ability to deliver rapid fire context to her so that she's cool and she's good and she's settled without disrupting you. There does need to be a 30-second check-in she can deploy with you where you do actually stop and say, this is a priority for me. If she flags to you and you see the word status report check-in, see my face. Look at how you like this. Oh, Adam's making me check in. Cool, right? - Yeah, I got it. Stop for her and go. Things are tough at work, but we're good. Cool, okay. Stressor, stressor, no, don't stress her. Stressor. - Stressor. What stressor am I facing? But we're good, okay. - Makes sense? - Yeah. - That's the delivery. - Yeah. - One sentence for the comma. - It would be helpful if I was like, let's talk about it later. Or should I just say? - No, that's death. - That's murder. - That's murder. (laughing) - No, that's murder. - Okay, I will say that. - Stressor report. - Stressor report. - No, I'm gonna say, hey, everything's good. Can I fill you in later? - That is great. - Okay, perfect. - Let's talk about it later. - That's what I meant. - No. She's on a plane to confine you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Right, so no. - You've done that before. - Oh, 100%, yeah. - We are good. I'll fill you in later. It's beautiful. - Okay. - That's fine. Do not forget that we are good. - We are good. - Yeah, yeah. - We are good. - It's just flagging, right? - Yeah. - Right? She doesn't care if you've lost an arm. She's just sort of like, are you still loving me? That's all. - Yeah. - Am I still pretty, right? That's it. - Literally, that's it. - They bring you back like on a stretcher. And she's like, yeah, but am I still pretty? That's the thing. - I'm in love with her. - Right, and that's it. Hey, we're good. That's it. - Okay. - That is the entire piece. If you can't give us-- - I can do that. - If you can't dip into the emotions right there, totally fine. - Yeah. - Let her know you're good. Let her know you catch a platter. - Cool. - Perfect. - Or for me. - Absolutely. - Reduce your stress and friction to complete zero that way. And then you can actually stay in your parasympathetic nervous system. Now, every time you check in with him that way, it is proof that it's okay for you to be in your calm state because there's not a threat. The more we can eliminate little points of friction like that, the more your system will say, okay, it's okay for me to go parasympathetic and rest and digest and connect, the more you're gonna immerse with your kids, the more you're gonna get oxytocin with them, but even more important, you're gonna give it to them. - Yeah. - Because if you're not getting it with them, odds are very good. They're not getting as much as they need from you. And they're saying mom is distant, mom disconnected. And their brain is saying mom doesn't like being with me. - Yeah. - And that's the flag, does that make sense? - What are the ways that you form oxytocin with your kids usually? - Physical touch, laughing, playing, laying on the floor and rolling around and wrestling, watching a cartoon but talking about it with them while you're watching it or afterward. Reading stories together, going on walks and asking them questions about their day, snuggling. Perfect, I got that one down. Rubbing your face in their hair, obnoxious inside jokes, coloring and drawing together. We do a lot of those things, so I feel pretty good. Are you stressed out beyond belief, white knuckling it and trying to give them a good experience and performing or are you actually fully immersed in resting truly at rest and playing? It depends on the weekend, right? So this weekend we were very relaxed, I would say, in the sense of I didn't take them to a million places or try to do these crazy events. It depends on the weekend is an interesting phrasing. Yeah. What about the week days? Well, they're in school during the days. 24 hours? Are they aborting school? No, they're in daycare. So I get them after work and then we kind of have the same night routine every single night, come home, make dinner together. So what about oxytocin bonding and playing during that time? You don't have to be doing nothing else. We do like reading books and drawing. That's kind of what we do every day. Do they sit on your lap? Do you guys read play? They sit next to each other in the same house. Yeah. Okay. And we talk a lot. I ask them a lot of questions, but the other day was, you know, it's going on. So do they ask you about your day? Are they getting to that age yet? My daughter's five. Once in a while, they'll ask me. Have you ever told them that that's the right thing to do in a family? Have you trained them that explicitly? That's actually a good thing to train them in. Okay. Especially your son. Yeah. Teach him early that it's good to ask people about their day. Yeah. Otherwise, he'll be 35 and his wife will be like, "Why does he never ask me about my day?" That's a good point. Love that. It's an interesting year for girls too, right? Girls often will be more curious anyway and they'll start intuitively picking up. Yeah, they'll live that all the time. But it's still good to explicitly tell them. And it should be like, "I know dad." It's fine. Yeah. Explicit is always better because you never know what they're going to pick up and what they don't. Yeah. Share your day with them a little bit. Even if it's tough, actually, share some tough pieces. Hey, this was really tough, but I got through it. Let them see that, let them feel that because that's actually you bonding with them and them bonding with you and them learning about life. They love that. It's all really good. Don't hide that from them. The more that you can relax and not be in this state where you're worried about stuff, the more you can actually immerse with your kids and the more oxytocin you get and the better you'll have instead of that hangover cliff. Yes. Absolutely. Perfect. What do you need as compensation for doing this for her? Because she's checking in with you. She is feeling better and safer in the relationship. Mostly, most of the time men provide safety and women in turn provide peace and they immerse your nervous system and rest you and refresh you. Most of the time. What do you need as compensation? Knowing that it's perfectly valid to want compensation. Yeah. I mean, she does really. Actually, she does really, really well at this. That's one of the reasons I love the relationship because she has brought a lot of peace. I have a very chaotic, crazy. Some days are absolutely off the hinges. Just off the rails, doors falling off. It's right now things need to be solved. And I feel very at peace with her. Good. That's what you have a woman for. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I don't think I'd be in the relationship if that peace wasn't there. Perfect. That's, she's done really, really well. So a lot of times, then what I often hear in circumstances, when I ask Ben, what do you need as compensation? In good relationships, what I usually hear is she's already doing it. Yeah. I just wanted to keep doing it. And this is actually what makes that sustainable for you to keep doing it. Does that feel right? Makes sense. It's not sustainable for you to keep providing all of that if you're not receiving this return. And I'm flagging that explicitly for you in case you feel awkward that you're asking him to do something for you, because that can feel like you're creating a burden that now you have to try to compensate for by overperforming. Had that run across your system already during the conversation? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All you're doing is balancing the equation. Yeah. You just didn't know you were allowed to. So this is going to make it more sustainable. It's fascinating is it will actually return so much more to you. Didn't I say at the beginning that if you give more oxytocin, it actually radiates out of you even more. It magnifies it. Everybody always says, a woman magnifies whatever she's given. And this is actually true. She's going to become even more of that to you as you do those things. So when you have moments where you stop and go, I got to shift out. It's hard to shift out of that gear. And remember and go, wait, pause, reassure. Right? It's the hunter 20,000 years ago. Go ahead and hold on. He pulls out his phone, detects his wife back and goes, okay, guys, all right, resume. And the man has like frozen waiting for you, right? Like it's hard in that moment because it feels like a burden. Remember that you're going to get five times more back to you in that moment. I don't believe in demanding people have altruism. I don't believe in saying just do it to make people happy. That's stupid. Yeah, that's death. I agree. Incentivization, proper exchange, it's not a transaction. It's an exchange in an ecosystem so you both get to continuously thrive. Sustainability. Yeah. Does that create sustainability for you to then give this to her continuously? Yeah, absolutely. Beautiful. That's balancing the equation. Context, context, context. One key thing is asking each other a lot more questions. Both of you need to ask each other a lot more questions, but you need to provide context about why you're asking it. You need to ask him for status reports and use the word status report. If you want to put the flashing siren emoji right there, great. If you want to send a picture of my face, do remind him that's fine too, right? Status report, you're quiet, right? Are things good? Are things good is better than are we good? Are things good? That's it. That makes sense. And this is recorded so you'll have this verbiage. You'll have to transfer. And for you, we're good. Yeah. If you can give a little more context, even better. Yeah, absolutely. That's the minimum. I want you to write that on your phone, notepad. And I want you to copy and paste it into the message. You can write it right now if you need to. I don't have my phone. I left over there. It's almost buzzing. That's good. You just copy and paste it straight in. Don't ever do it if it's not true, but copy and paste it straight in. Yeah. Consistently deliver that. If he ever doesn't deliver that, ask him well within your rights to ask. Here's what nobody has ever told you. As the woman, it is your right to be emotionally a mess because you need your emotion settled to then return everything he needs from you. You can't provide the emotional peace he's looking for unless your emotions are settled. It is then his job, if he wants peace from you, to actually help you go regulate. That is just how the equation balances. So you have every right to be emotional. Yeah. Makes sense? I think that was a really, really tough thing for me to learn. Yeah. Yeah. Because I felt like, and I don't know, maybe it was the avoidance side of me or, you know, like I didn't want to regulate someone's emotions. Who'd you have to regulate when you were a kid? Oh, man. Yeah, there we go. I grew up, my parents split up. There was five of us in a two-bedroom apartment, single mom, like, man, I could go down the rabbit hole. You had to regulate everybody? Yeah, out of percent. I just sell drugs to get food. I got even due drugs. Yeah. I found sports and was really good at that, but I was really good because I belonged, you know? Oh, yeah. And that was like a way that I could connect with people. And the better I got, the more embraced, you know? And so I was like, what's that? Competence and performance. Yeah, 100%. And so I was like, I would perform, so I could get invited to the parties, you know? Get the girls, get the, like, safety, belonging, acceptance. Yeah, 100%. And only my close friends knew, you know, we, single mom, living in apartment, you know, three boys in one room. My mom and my sister in another room, like, does she have to regulate your mom? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. My mom grew up, I mean, she was, her mom left her and her brothers and sisters at five years old in an apartment. And they didn't, and this is just my mom's account, right? Like what she told me. Yeah. Her mom left to go to the grocery store, never came back. And the oldest kid was nine years old, and she was five. And so, uh, so your mom's probably been checking on on you your whole life. She's been doing this checking in on you your whole life. Are we good? Are we good? Are we good? Are we good? Are we good? Yeah. And so, uh, she was found a month later by her mom's sister. And then she went into, uh, what's the, what's the, uh, foster care? She went to foster care. Yeah. And then, uh, got adopted when she was like 14 or 12 or 14. And so, um, the, the people who adopted her, my grandparents, super sweet. Like from Idaho, the nicest, like Mormon family, like, I don't hope people are solid. Shout out to all solid, right? Like he was an engineer. The mom, my grandma was a homemaker. Like, you came home to cookies and that was, uh, from 12 to, you know, when she got adopted, that was her life after that. But there was still a lot of baggage from what happened genetically, genetically genetically, it changes your brain structures and really bad, uh, foster cares. Like, um, and so, yeah, that, fast forward, I still don't have a great relationship with my mom because I had to take on that role of like, husband, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. That's the problem right there. And, you know, my mom had a lot, and bless my, love my mom. Oh, I'm sure she. We don't, we don't have a relationship. We don't talk or whatever, but, uh, - That's a whole nother. - Oh yeah, of course. other story. There's our baggage, though. Yeah, but but I definitely had to figure out that navigating that relationship. And yeah, it was tough. It was really tough. That's what I need you to do. You're going to have needs. You're going to have them. And on the worst possible days, he's going to respond poorly because that baggage is going to flare up. He's tired. He's got a too fake. He didn't sleep that well last night. His sales seem isn't performing. All right, the sun is in his eyes. He's pissed off. And you're going to text him and be like, Hey, stand up, support. How we doing? If you can provide explicit context about the bare minimum you need. Hey, I just need to know that we're good. And that's all I need right now. What I usually say is, do you still love me? Brutal. Yeah, she said brutal. And it triggers me. She said, I'm like, death. What did I do? Did I do something that made you feel like not loved? Like, what did I do? Is that I say something? Did I do something? Do you still love me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly, that's that's a very honest question. It's not wrong if you'd ask it. Yeah, for sure. It is the worst possible question you can ask. So what's they say? Honestly, the biggest fix though isn't even the verbiage, the biggest fix is the context. His brain begins filling in the context with the most negative thing in the world. He flashes back to that apartment. He flashes back to his mom. He can her face gets superimposed on your face. And he's like, Oh, God, it's mom again. And his system starts freaking out. And his system starts saying, what's the bare minimum I can give right now? Because why are you demanding this of me? Why are you judging me? Why are you doubting me? Why are you impugning my honor? Why are you doing this to me? Actually, why are you doing this to me? Is the question the system starts to ask? You are not wrong for needing what you need. And we can't stop you from needing what you need. That's actually the worst thing we can do is to try to tell you to just shut up and deal it yourself. That's actually that would wreck the relationship. Yeah, that would destroy it for both of you. What we need you to be able to do is step in and provide some context. Hey, I'm having a pretty tough day. I know I'm at one of my weak points. I really just need you to tell me that you like me. Are we good? Does that context make a difference? 100 percent. Yeah, because he doesn't have to spend the next three hours having this. And you're not you're not judging him. What you're actually doing. Here's an even better piece. There are four people in this relationship. There's each of you your executive selves. And then there's what I call your limbic selves, the limbic system fight flight fond of scared amygdala, right? Fear based self. The fear based selves are sitting there shivering and crying like, please, please don't leave me. Don't hurt me and don't enslave me to your feelings. When you're avoidantly attached, you are deeply embarrassed that you even have that person. And you're afraid of how the other person will weaponize that against you. Even if you know they won't, you've had it happen before. So you try to cover up and hide those people as much as you can, but they grab control the wheel if you don't appease them. So you have to constantly try to placate them secretly without the other person ever knowing that they're there. Intimacy, true intimacy means actually revealing that to each other equally, revealing that to each other and not saying this is your problem now, it's help me take care of this person. So you can explicitly say, well, crazy Carly is afraid right now that you don't that crazy Carly is afraid right now that you don't love her. And then you say, I know that you love me. I know that you love me, but crazy Carly is afraid right now. Can you tell me you love me so that I can show it to her? You will sound like a person with mental problems. That is perfectly fine. Because here's what's happening. You are now working with him to resolve that issue. You're no longer an empty sucking black hole demanding he give everything in the moment. Yeah, you're trying to call that person and solving a problem together and he can go crazy Carly. I love you. I think you're wonderful. I can't wait to see you again. And you can go and you can go, oh, you go. And then you can copy that and paste it into a note pad where you have added 50 times he has reassured you. And if you ever get scared again, number one, you go to your place and you say, have I crossed any of the boundaries he explicitly told me no, I haven't. Let me go read those texts that he has sent me before. And now you have emotional permanence unlocked out. You got it set. I can do that. And you can regulate yourself. That makes sense? Yeah, that's perfect. Can you guys give this shot? Absolutely. Any last questions for me before we close out here today? Have I solved everything? Is a perfect thing? We're perfect. I think you provided clarity on a lot of things and understanding what some of the things that are going on, but also what we can fix to make a good relationship even better. Great. This this was already a good relationship. I can hear that because you guys were able to just respond so easily in front of each other and talk and connect the bond. So this was already good. This will fine tune it into an even deeper place. It will create more problems for you guys because as the intimacy continues to grow, mom's going to pop up more often in your system. The more you guys close that gap, you guys do the same city, then you move in together, right? And then you have those connections. The more that you ask for help and the more that you receive it, the more your system is going to dive deeper and then be even more frightened because now you're even more naked and vulnerable than you were before, right? It's going to create those different pieces. And here's the thing you will have to talk to each other about that experience. Hey, how you feel in lately? Like what's going on on your side? Are we good? You should have those check-ins every quarter. Like you guys said, you had a fight, about a fight every once in a while. Do the walks. Do the walks. That's good. Quarterly check-ups. Treat your relationship like a business. Quarterly check-ins. Every quarter on the dot, right? Mark it down on your counter. There's the first month of every quarter. You guys are going to sit and have a conversation. And you're going to say, what's been on your plate lately? Anything you need help with? What's rough? What's a friction point? Hey, you know what? I'm loving our connection, but I feel like even more of a crazy person because I feel like I want even more than I did before. And man is that weird. Yeah, I could see how that'd be weird. Anything as things go forward, if you need to think from me, let me know. Actually, that that moment of reassurance that it's okay for me to be loving you. That's actually going to. So for the next quarter, you're going to be good. That problem will go away probably. Hey, hey, you know what? I am noticing that I'm spiking a bit more when you're reaching out for me. I don't want you to stop. I actually like it, but I am spiking. So if I ever look spiky and that looks weird to you, you can ask me about it. I'm just going to tell you, because I don't want us to go in a weird direction, you get a weird message from me. I just noticing that I'm doing it. So I'm covering it. Check in, give context. Context is the best currency you guys have. And if you want the other person to feel loved, give them personal context. Best thing you guys can do for each other. That's the best way to actually show personal characters. You can trust each other more because data, but also it's the best way to make the other person feel like they are truly trusted. That builds intimacy. That is intimacy. Bring your other limbic selves into the conversation. Cool. Love it. Beautiful. Thank you guys for being so honest in this. It takes a lot. It's a lot of courage. Absolutely. Everybody at home, sound off in the comments, give some love and attention to these people. It's always amazing to me. When people come on and have the courage to do these things, because it is very vulnerable. It's very revealing. But here's what I usually tell people. And I'll tell this to you guys too, is everybody out there. There's a thousand people watching this saying, wow, I'm glad they stepped up and asked because that's my relationship. That's my feeling. That's my concern. There's a thousand, 10,000 people out there right now. Maybe a hundred thousand based on how many views are on this video? No. There's a lot of people out there that are getting some help they needed through this episode really, really quick. And that's what you guys have facilitated. So thank you for this. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Before you go, one question. Who are you waiting on your partner? The right person? Stop waiting. Mammal anxiety season is here. shorter days push every nervous system toward threat. And patterns left alone only get stronger. In the reverse the damage sale, coaching is 30% off. And our small group attachment training programs are 20% off, but only for a very limited time. If you're committed to real change, ready to work on your own attachment and to show up first, fill out the short application in the show notes. If it's a good fit, you'll get a free concept with one of my relationships strategists. And if not, you'll still get resources. Someone has to go first. Let it be you.