What Does Redox Even Mean? Dr. Seeds Unpacks The Meaning of “Redox” And Why He Chose To Name His Podcast “The Redox Revolution.”

Medical disclaimer, please note that the information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health regimen, including starting new therapies, supplements or treatments. While we discuss cutting edge research and advancements in cellular medicine, individual health needs vary and professional guidance is essential. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that neither Dr. Seeds nor the podcast team is providing personalized medical recommendations. On today's episode of Redox Revolution, it's really a revolution. Let's go. Welcome back to another episode of Redox Revolution with Matt and Maddie. Hello, how are you guys doing? How many times are you going to point at the sign? I just like to be able to look at it because. It reminds you where you are. Yeah. Are you getting dementia? Yeah, you know, I just got to remember what I'm here in front of this camera because sometimes I'm here for this and that and I'm like, "Oh, there's a reminder. Does that mean dementia is headed my way?" This camera, you mean that camera? That camera? That camera? That camera? Now he's going to be all confused about camera that he has to look at. This is really disrupting me here. Hey, Matt, where are we headed today? What's our objective today? Today is one step back, five steps forward. Oh, boy. This is a question we actually get a lot. Whether it is at something like one of your SSRP masterminds or. someone just looking at one of the mugs. Oh, I bet I know what it is. What? What's Redox? What is Redox? Wow. This is. I think. It's for those of us who are not medical experts. Obviously, Madison, you're not included in that because I would like to say you're a little bit of a medical expert, but we'd like to understand more about why you named the podcast. Redox Revolution. I'm sure it has something to do with your book, The Redox Promise, but what else? It is our medical group as well. Name of our medical group? It is the. It's the beginning of understanding cellular medicine and root causes, and it's the basis for, I think, truly having the knowledge base. In treating people with chronic diseases or immune dysfunction, metabolic problems, it's all about the Redox of the cell. And it really comes down to. Redox is a. I think the most simplistic way is to think that we think of diseases as disease states, and that's when they're in the symptom. The symptoms of the disease, this is where they are in that process of a cardiac arrest or inflammatory issue of the skin, or they're losing muscle mass and sarcopenia. There are these disease states or neurodegenerative problems, and their symptoms associate with that, and that's the disease. I'd like people to think one step higher that this is all an issue on the movement and spin of electrons. I know, it's like, what are you talking about? Well, it's about how electrons move in the mitochondria base on the energy that's provided to that cell. Whether it's glucose, a fatty acid, or a protein, and how the cell uses that to manage that electron flow. Because that electron flow in the cell and how those electrons are managed to eventually produce energy, ATP, and NAD, that is the essence of understanding everything in medicine. That's the gold. If we get more people thinking in that direction of understanding the levers involved here, when you understand electron flow and what goes wrong, the question is, OK, redox has to do with electron flow. Well, it has to do with electron flow, and then what are the consequences of that electron flow in the mitochondria that's producing energy? And is there a specific area, which there is that's called the electron transport system of where you can have electrons leak and mix with oxygen that we take up from the air to make these reactive oxygen species called superoxide radicals that all of a sudden can be good players where you need reactive oxygen species to adapt to stressors, they're signaling agents, but in a chronic state, they are bad players where they create problems with metabolism, immunity, and so forth. So there is your, that's the crux of every, am I saying that right there? Yeah, so at a cellular level, redox is about the balance between reducing agents and oxidizing agents. OK, so that's a step, so now you've gotten a step ahead. So why do you need reducing agents and oxidizing agents? Well, it's because of this electron flow. And if the electron flow goes bad and you're creating too many of these reactive oxygen species, the cell has to have a way to nullify that, to control those reactive oxygen species. And that's called, that's where you get these things called natural antioxidants that you make that go from reductive to oxidative states. They're able to change states to control these electrons. So can you walk us through that? Can you help us understand this so-called antioxidant system and how it helps us to maintain or why it's so important for cellular health? Do you like how he said so-called antioxidant system? It is called the antioxidant system. Yeah, damn. Well, this is a good, this is a great introduction into the cell again talking about the cell's intelligence has its own, it's called, it's an endogenous antioxidant system. As opposed to exogenous where people take antioxidants, vitamin C, vitamin E, lapoagas, they take these supplements that are antioxidants trying to control reactive oxygen species where the cell has the capability and knowledge and know how, indigenously to do it on its own because it's genetically engineered to do that. So- And isn't that the best way though because your cell's not going to push you into an over oxidized state whereas taking the antioxidants can push you? Yeah, it's such a tight system that, and well defined and controlled, I mean, you have to understand you need some of these accidents to establish an antioxidant system. Establish messaging and to adapt and to, you know, to conform to the stressors that you need that those oxidative stresses by those electrons moving to create signaling for the body to change. And that's what occurs from these reactive oxidative species. Well, if, and we have an antioxidant system to kind of keep that under control where you produce your own like glutathione, your own thyroid oxins, that are these faster acting and then you've got these other super oxidative, it takes catalase, hemoxygen, and NADPAs, or NADP, oxygenase one, whatever, quinoine oxygenase one. You have your own scavenging antioxidant enzymes, you've got your own glutathione system, you've got your own thyroid oxins system. So you've got these multiple levels of the way you can produce antioxidants to control that signaling. So if you, for example, for some reason, think you're doing something by adding an antioxidant into that equation, you may be stopping the necessary signaling that you need to adapt and to, for, for cell signaling because those not all antioxidants are bad. You need them, you need them to adapt to perform and, and it's so interesting when you get into this space because, and I spent a lot of time in my book kind of emphasizing the importance of understanding that these antioxidants can be really a tough place in, in making you sicker, in making you less, the cells less. able to adapt. You got to know when to use them, how to use them. But also to understand even in the world of using peptides and small molecules, those can affect where people think they're following a specific pathway to get something better and they don't realize they're overdoing it because they're taking so many things together. Even with the peptides? In that's where I think you've seen, this is what we try to really emphasize in our teaching through certification and through our masterminds and through our grand rounds where we're trying to make our providers really understand what redox is because if you understand the essence of redox, then you can understand how you can get into trouble where you may overoxidize or what's called over reduce somebody with supplements, but you can do the same thing with peptides. You can push them the wrong way and we've had examples of that. Can we actually dive into some of those examples? Because this actually relates back to the episode you and I did about Stan Healthy during the winter months when she was sick and we talked about how people can overdo it and take way too many antioxidants. So maybe what are some of those antioxidants that most people tend to overdo it with? And then question to what are the ways that you can push people over the edge with peptides? Yeah, because I feel like I should know that and I'm a little stumped. Well, that's more advanced. I thought I was advanced. You are advanced. It's a topic we've just run into more because so I guess what are some of the antioxidants that people most commonly overdo it with? I feel like vitamin C. Yeah, don't let me forget to kind of also tear this oxidation, this idea of redox. So people understand again what we're doing because the third part of you got to understand this in three parts I believe to really truly understand when we get into the peptides. It gets more complicated but antioxidants so remind me. The most common ones are in the ones that you see the validating studies are like to people overdoing it with they're taking vitamin C and vitamin E and they're taking it post work out to try to improve the inflammation from working out and thinking that they're enhancing their performance and repair and recovery. And what they're doing is they're, remember, the muscle, everything needs those antioxidants that are created by electron flow and electron leaking those super oxides that then can, that the cell allows to be created because it's adapting to that increase in that force of needing to make more ATP, making more NADH, doing it more efficiently. The cell in mitochondria is adapting. If you add all the sudden this vitamin in vitamin C does quelched to like Pac-Man that that super oxidide or that reactive oxygen species, then the cell is not getting that stress or response it needs to know how to respond to the stress. And so you're losing the benefits of the exercise to those to taking those antioxidants means you never really get anywhere with your training where you're trying to build stress, resistance into these cells. You're trying to get more adaptation out of these cells and you're trying to get more growth too out of muscle. I know it may have been subtext to some of the things you said before but really everything you just said there is that redox balance is a key to managing inflammation. So redox balance, so inflammation is different from reactive oxygen species. Inflammation is a word to use what the immune system does in releasing cytokines like interleukin, six, 200-crosses factor alpha. Those are secondary effects from redox getting out of control. Redox is not inflammation. Redox is a biochemical change that triggers either it triggers inflammation but it also triggers your antioxidant system which is called the NFR2 pathway to kind of keep it under control. It's your autopilot way of controlling that oxidation. But if that oxidation gets out of control then it activates that other pathway, the NFKB pathway, that starts inflammation. That starts all the release of all those inflammatory factors that then feed on this system and make it even worth, it's a positive loop that makes the system even worse. So maybe add a word in there, redox balance is key to the body managing inflammation. Correct. Instead of redox balance managing inflammation. Or the cell managing the signaling of inflammation because there's another part here. So I guess this is where it's important to also add, okay so we've talked about there's this layer of electrons that are flowing to make energy. To make energy they can create these accidents that are reactive and you need them to survive, you need them to adapt, we need them for signaling. They're good. And they're kept under control by signaling this next layer which is called the antioxidant system which is run by this transcription factor NFR2 basically that produces like the glutathione system, the thyroid oxen, pyrodoxen system and then the scavenger reactive oxygen species like the superoxide desmitases and the hemoxidanease one and catalyse and so forth. So those are all that just want to circle it back, those are the antioxidants. Those are the, that's the antioxidant system. And also in that is if the oxidative stress gets too high that then and the antioxidants can't keep it under control you get into the, you're getting into chronic now, chronic production that's not controlled by oxidative system then it signals this NFKB nuclear factor capa B transcription that then starts that signaling of inflammation that is the release now of, that has immune cells and other cells that release the cytokines and chemokines and proteases that really create havoc and cause breakdown of membranes and disease processes. It's like this, it's the, it's when the disease becomes active. So you can have redox start and gets out of whack without having any inflammation to start with and then eventually it's going to lead to inflammation and that's, that's the disease part. So that's why I put so much emphasis on my gosh, we've got to focus on this, on this biochemical energy and then there, I forgot there's this third phase of, of oxidation and signaling that's called these protein changes that can occur because you got too many, too many what we call reduced and this is where it gets complicated but you've got too much glutathione, you've got too much NADH, you've got these, you're, you're causing what's called glutathione and L, S, glutathione relation or S nitrosolation on these proteins meaning you're taking, and proteins are signaling agents so you're, you're oxidizing these proteins that to create other signaling that may be, may be good and may be bad and so they're dimmer, consider them like dimmer switches where they're turning off and on certain signaling agents by glutathione, glutathione relation, sorry, and S nitrosolation and even sulfenolation are some ways to affect these proteins meaning that you could be in a state, let's say you're in a certain metabox. state where you're overreduced. Your electron chain's not working really well and you have all this backup of NADH. Well, and then you create more, a more reductive stress by trying to add something in or you add an antioxidant like glutathione. You're going to, because you're overreduced, you're gonna have then more, what's called, as glutathionylation on these proteins, where you may be turning on and off things that you don't want to. And it gets really interesting of how this leads, how we contract this to specific diseases. So, are there any, are there any like, tricky, but yet super common ways in which you guys see your patients getting overreduced? Taking too many antioxidants. Aside from that, I said tricky. - Oh, it's sneaky. - Overreduced? - Yeah. - Sneaky. - Like, describe sneaky. - Well, you can, let's say, if you don't know, this is where it becomes really important to understand a disease state, like say a disease state, like insulin resistance, or which will cause an over reductive state, because you lose that electron transports, or a certain autoimmune disease, or where you lose this electron transport, and you think you're helping this patient, because they're making more reactive action species, and you're trying to focus on the disease part, and you think you're helping them by adding an antioxidant, you're actually over reducing this patient, and you're leading to more of these post translational changes on proteins that even screw up things more. - So for patients who are coming for weight loss, I just wanna see if I'm on the right track or if I'm thinking differently, how they're losing, they've lost their metabolic flexibility. - Correct. - Does losing the metabolic flexibility also correlate with a loss of redox balance, too? - So they haven't gotten to the extreme of where they're overreduced yet, but they're headed in that direction. You have to pay attention to that, and that's why you, you know, some of those people, we've seen they come in, and if they're taking too many antioxidants right away, we already know we're in trouble, because they're headed that way of overreduction. And so this, what I'm trying to say is, if you, and that's a brilliant way to look at, to bring this up, that the validity of why you have to know your redox to know where to start with a patient, and I've even gotten into this issue of trying to help physicians and very smart healthcare providers that understand peptides and antioxidants, but don't respect or understand this, the physics of electron flow, and the reality of how things can get gummed up, and how they think they're pushing through, by adding a peptide, they're gonna make this better, and in fact, they're making it worse. And then that's why it's so crucial to go through, I believe, our training and really understand, okay, you gotta know why you're using these, and even when we think we have those providers that tell us they understand it, they're thinking in one dimension, or they're not understanding it. This is a, they're multiple, so what's a way that either a patient or a provider can think about redox in a way that's helpful on a day-to-day basis? - Especially in correlation with a peptide, because I feel like peptides, they're signaling agents. - Well, it depends on the state of the patient. It's why we wanna, let's take an example of a bad case, where that electron transport is really gummed up. They're overreduced, they got a lot of NADH bottlenecked, that's not NADH, meaning it's providing the energy to promote that electron flow. So say someone's gonna give NAD, and they think they're gonna add to improving that system, because that NAD is gonna be in the creb cycle and so forth, it's gonna be made into NADH, in some other ways. So you're gonna, you're providing this more NADH eventually that is, so you've got it bottlenecked. Well, you're gonna think, well, gosh, I'm gonna go after metabolism, right? And try to, let's make fat oxidation better. Well, what's really aggravated that system? It's what Matt said, it's inflammation has become a big player, and where is inflammation coming from, the immune system? So this is why we can make people worse when we use, when we use some of these secretedogs and things too that we think we're promoting improved, yeah, okay. Improve power more NAD, more NAD, more ATP. We're making it worse because we're bottlenecking that more, we're making more post translational changes that are just turning off all the switches and the patients like, oh my God, I'm more fatigued, I'm more work, well, it's because we haven't addressed what, the inflammation of these immune cells that are creating this loop that, yeah, you gotta stop the fire first. So that's where we learned and made our mistakes of not respecting redox, and that's where it really got me so involved in understanding that biochemistry and respecting it from a, from the cellular side of this that, I gotta take care of the immune system first. So that's where immune modulation, when you make that better, then you've taken enough inciting forces off of that, that creating that positive feedback loop on that electron transport chain, now you've got some momentum where you could now work on, hey, let's see if we can enhance that bottleneck, right? Because you're-- - I was today's years old when I realized it was cause of redox that could make patients worse 'cause I knew there's times where it could, 'cause we've seen it, and I knew it was immune driven, but just put it together that it's redox. - Isn't that awesome? - Yeah. - I mean, it's-- - Big day. - It's, you know what I mean? - So performance protocol, go. - And I only took a couple of years, and years, and years. - Redox, immune system first. - That's not a performance protocol, and you know it. Come on, you just had a eureka moment, let's hear it. - Well, again, you're good at this. But again, it comes, it's understanding the disease there is, and knowing ahead of time, that's why we study these pathways, because we have knowledge of, okay, in this disease state, this pathway's over-activated, this pathway, you know, the NFKV, the NFR2, this is where AMPK and MTOR become big players, right? So if you have that knowledge base, well then you can utilize redox. It's what I use every day to set my plan of, oh my gosh, this is how we have to go, and I learned the hard way. I wasn't thinking enough, it was right in front of me, but I wasn't focused enough on how important this redox, this biochemistry and these changes in electrons have everything to do with every disease and mitochondrial function. You can't avoid it, but if you stick to those, that understanding, and you go to that next level, and this is where it's kind of more proprietary, because we spend a lot of time on this knowledge in our SSRP and really getting to these post-translational changes that no one talks about and that you have to have a knowledge base of, and then I introduce to everybody at the mastermind for the brain to really get an idea of, guys, these are the switches, these are the last levers of this redox method of this glutathion, esglutathion, esonitrosylation, esulfination, esbutaration, all these things that can cause post-translational changes in proteins to cause different signaling. And my gosh, once you get that down, and there's a lot more to it, of course. - You had four entire slide decks on the redox reset inside that mastermind. So when it does come to wrapping up this conversation and building a performance protocol, it almost feels like the choke point or the point of failure for redox balances that people have been treating it kind of like a Chinese finger trap, like, oh, antioxidants, when that's the complete wrong thing to do, you have to almost lean into your cell's ability to heal itself. So what is the way anybody just can start to take those beginning steps to resetting their own redox balance and having their own body take care of the antioxidant system themselves. - Well, here's the importance now of the endodgynt. So you want to endodgyntously let your system reset, right? One of those ways. Calorie restriction, an incredible way to reset redox. Calorie restriction, not fast, not intermittent fasting, which is not intermittent fasting. It's calorie restriction or even short bouts of cold therapy, like three minutes is all you need to set a, to kind of start that reset exercise, strength training, certain modalities in exercise, all do what? They start that AMPK pathway that has the ability then to set up this, what's called PGC1 alpha to more mitochondria biogenesis. All the things that are setting up the, also the transcription of NFR2 to handle now those that load. It's letting the cell figure it out basically and how to control NFKB, because NFKB is out of control if you have chronic inflammation. So it's how do you manage NFKB and still manage NFR2, which is the oxidative part? Well, the cell has that knowledge and we have endogenous triggers, cold therapy, calorie restriction, exercise. Those are three pillars sleep, getting circadian clock correct, nutrition with the right. So with nutrition, it's not about antioxidants, about more like polyphenols, good polyphenols that are, that are in plants and that have also the ability to work with this oxidative stress. Huh. Just a little bit of an anecdote. I do remember as you really started to lean into this entire topic area, how you started incorporating salads into your diet almost every day. I can like remember that shift distinctly growing up where you started to. Well, those are, those are things that I was doing to encourage short chain fatty acids that are another inducer of beta oxidation of the electron transport to improve, to kind of get around that bottleneck, but to also improve the efficiencies and then lead to what more of a MPK based PDC1 alpha, which generate more mitochondria, that then can handle the load of this oxidative stress with more NFR2 and controlling NFKB. So yeah, that was a strategy of working on the microbiome in a way, but yeah. I was going to ask earlier. So when you're talking about how things are leaking outside of the electron transport chain, that's when things go bad. Usually complex one and complex three are where those electrons are leaking. So is that almost similar to what happens in the gut when things, is it a loss of redox in the gut? Absolutely. So like when the LPS is in toxins, it's absolutely right. It's a, if we want to back up to what happens, why do these cells in the gut lose their barriers of these proteins that hold them tightly, they're clotted and the cluedons on your lens. What causes the release and the cells to improve, increase their permeability where like LPSs and other toxins can penetrate through that cell barrier? Well, what has to happen first is that that epithelial cell starts losing efficiencies in its mitochondria of where in the microbiome, if the microbiome is not at its, it's not doing its job of creating this cohabitation of good bugs and bad bugs to make the butyrate, proprenate and acetate, which are the short chain fatty acids, will 80, 75, 80% of the nutrition of the clonocyte comes from butyrate. If it's not getting that, you start losing efficiencies in the mitochondria because that butyrate is improving the efficiencies of that oxidative respiration of the cell because oxygen, remember, is flowing everywhere from our blood vessels into the cell to be utilized to make energy. Well, if it goes into that clonic cell and that oxygen is not utilized correctly and that cell is right there and then there's the colon, which is what? It's anaerobic. It's like a can't tolerate oxygen because if oxygen gets diffuses into that colon, it kills the obligated anaerobes, which are what? They're the main bugs that make butyrate, proprenate, acetate. So you've all of a sudden you're killing these bad bugs. So that's the beginning of dysbiosis and that's all about electrons. That's all about redox and it's. It's another eureka moment for me today. It comes down to these, this is why we're focused on even though we know it becomes in a very immune activated area in the gut. We know it's always the metabolism is something that we have to address also to get the clonic cells healthy to get these proteins, these occludens, cladens and these things that keep the cells tight and not to release the zonulin, which is a toxin when it's released that can cause other problems. That's why we're focused on redox because if we just focused on the immune side, we totally miss that. So that's a. Gosh, we really got detailed into that process but I hope that. I hope that. You can make sense out of anything if you go back to redox and if you follow these pathways, it's just fascinating what you can figure out and that's what makes it so fun to help in where people are left with these problems and they're treated with band aids and yet they don't know that there's so much that can be done when you approach redox systemically. I think that could be a good performance protocol. Approach redox systemically. Well, you are. If you're working on redox, just think about this. If you're there, if you're here to improve redox, you're working on your cardiac cells, you're working on your neurons, you're working on your muscle cells, you're working on your clonocytes, you're working on everything and that only makes sense. If you're truly focused on improving redox, which is what? It's the appropriate management of the cell of electrons spin and electron flow through the electron transport system to induce the adaptive changes. The cell needs to make to a stressor stimulus that creates an inflammatory. That creates a reactive oxygen species response at first, then it controls it with its own antioxidants and then potentially, if it needs a more powerful signal, it'll leave an influence the NFKB system to create a little more cytokine production that may be a good thing, but that most of the time is bad. That's it in a nutshell. That's what makes it so fun and fascinating. You could call it a redox revolution. The revolution. Break the fourth wall, Leo moment. The revolution is understanding that it's multi-layered. It's about electrons. It's about oxidation. It's about post-translational changes, of proteins. My gosh, that just opens the door to everything because people. You're just starting to recognize those. I feel like you said third layer a few times. It all kept coming back to the third layer. I feel like there was a few times, so it is multi-layered. Just to wrap everything up real quick, because I know you asked us to remind you, especially when talking about the peptides, these three layers. We went through it. That was. That was a Eureka moment when we went through the three layers. To wrap it up, can you just succinctly redefine those in a nice tight bow? It's understanding that the tight bow is electron flow through the electron transport system by electrons can be good and bad electrons that leak out of that electron flow in the mitochondria, or meant to create these reactive oxygen species like super oxides that can be good messengers to message the antioxidant system or the NFKB system that can be good to strengthen the cell to adapt, or if it's more something that's chronic that isn't managed by that system, you know, controlling the NFR2, which is the oxidative system, the antioxidant system. If it doesn't have control of that, that's what starts leading then to the signaling and the problems that can occur with too much NFKB and too much inflammation, then the immune system is brought in, and that's where you start getting into more of the disease states as we know them and the problems we see with those disease states. And then that third layer of these post-translational changes, meaning all we're doing is there's certain areas of the protein that are being changed to change it, signaling that a protein may turn off a system or turn on a system. It's like a dimmer switch on or off. It goes the wrong way and you start losing control of redox. And if you can't, you're never going to improve disease. Here's a strong statement. You're never going to improve any disease state, cancer state, metabolic state. If you don't get to the fact, to the place of managing redox, that's, it always comes back to that. And that's why redox is, I think you're going to see in the next five to ten years how this overtakes our whole approach, it's going to overtake our new understanding, a new look at how we treat people with more precise methods. And it's what's led into all our talks. I think we can relate any talk we've had on this redox revolution to redox. Do you know how to do a mic drop? So yeah, hold it out and then just drop it. Here you go. You do it. Do the mic drop. It's stock. I like the mic. Okay, I'm just saying it. Read us out. Okay. I just have one quick question. So sorry. After the mic drop. That's illegal. That's illegal. That's like, that goes against redox. That is okay. I'm not happy about this. Go ahead. Go ahead. Is it like a dimmer switch or is it more like a light switch? Can it like soften or brighten or is it just like complete honor off? So that is a, that's a great question. And it's, I, that's why you said dimmer because there's so many stages of those translational changes that occur that it isn't just on and off. It's what makes it so complex that we're, we're just understanding these post translational changes and, and that's, that's what makes it so fascinating. And that's why I went into some significant depth in the neurocognitive and degenerative issues in our mastermind to really introduce that concept the best because that's where it plays one of the biggest roles. That and, and, and, and cardiac disease. I didn't get into it much in the mitochondria because we're doing more mitochondria and performance and then so forth in their masterminds. But the brain was the best place to introduce it because it's so tightly regulated that these post translational, this dimmer control, huge. And it's subtle little changes that add up over time. And, and that's why, that's why in dementia, you're starting to hear this concept now, well, this disease started 10 years ago. It started 15 years ago. What started 10 or 15 years ago? Lots of re-docs. You can re-mic drop again. I just dropped them all. So, great place to end great questions. Thank you. Very good way of summarizing and, and making your dad sound like he knows what he's talking about to the general public. Because I'm, I know it's got to be confusing, but I get so excited and talking about this. I think this was, I love talking about re-docs because that is the, that's the, that's the foundation of cellular medicine. And it's what, it's what we're going to keep pushing forward and keep, and making people realize that they can think through these problems. And, and having a better understanding of biochemistry and physics here. We didn't, we get it into the proton mode of force and the electron spin and there's some really, there's lots of things that are happening now in this world of what are we going to be doing in the future to improve re-docs? Well, let me tell you, it's wide open. It's really a revolution. It is a revolution. So, thank you for joining us on this, um, um, revolutionary podcast. And, um, from the Redox Revolution Group, we'll see you later. Redox Revolution Group, like Redox Medical Group. Okay, Redox Medical Group. Just Redox Crew, maybe. How about Redox Crew? I, I don't know, I like, uh, whatever. Fuck you. Um, that's, that's a good one Dan Don. Let's call it a wrap. See you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]