What does parenting teach you about yourself? | with Tony Sebastian

Having a kid actually does two things to you right, one is it helps you stay endlessly curious right because they come and ask you the what are probably the dumbest questions but you pause and think you're like wait I really don't know all that works right and like they can ask you questions that you being a hardened possibly 40 year old take for granted rate and don't answer automatically right hello my name is Deepak the world calls me Chuck welcome to the right person to answer a show where I ask one question I'm curious about to the person best suited to answering it the conversations are diverse living better what it means to be human how technology impacts us lessons from parenting or running a creative project or what all this productivity is actually for I speak to authors friends scientists content creators content consumers journalists and many more what's common to all of them they are all the right person to answer something and with that welcome to this week's episode I'm glad you're here my teenage self may not be surprised that I've chosen not to be apparent from a very early age I never saw myself as one but he may be surprised that I'm not the exception indeed most of my closest friends are child free and this is hardly a friends of Chuck phenomenon all across a certain section of Indian millennials couples are choosing to not have kids this is reflective of a larger global trend and it is not a trend among just craft beer drinking podcast hosting hipsters fertility rates across socio economic classes geographies are plummeting enough for demographers to worry about a fertility crisis and for some governments to incentivize having kids a complete change from a few generations back where they would restrict the number of progeny the reason cited for this parsimony in parenting are well documented both parents focusing on careers or rather both adults focusing on careers or hobbies the sheer cost of racing a child in today's world the apparent environmental impact or just whether to bring a life into today's problem filled troubled world now there may have been a time when I was d i n k and proud of it maybe that was just my young self proud of an identity I'd chosen for myself it certainly is a radical departure from what the rest of my conservative family had done for generations and a signal that I cared more about my hobbies and living a life with my best friend was all I needed for a fulfilling family life that I was too focused on my career than worry about the distraction of enrolling a kid in school and then teaching them bodmas but age has a strange strange way of changing one's strongest held beliefs for instance I've softened my stance on religion I once thought that it was the most evil thing created by humankind but on reflection felt it probably had a lot more unifying and positive effect overall than just the negative sides my younger more revolutionary self was looking at similarly my views on parenting I'm not considering becoming a parent and I don't regret my decision to say to stay child free but part of me wonders what could have been like especially after seeing the positive impact it has had on some of my other friends would I have been a better person a less productive person a happier person didn't the creative projects coaching program that I run my co-founder Utsav also choosing to stay child free often says your content project is like your child just because others have one and you also is unlikely to be the greatest out there doesn't mean that you have to stop it or you will love your less or choose to have a great relationship with it that line made me think from the other way round what are the things that I and so many of my non parenting ilk are missing out on luckily I had the right person to answer this Tony Sebastian is one of my closest friends we ran a podcast simplified together for years had a newsletter project called the third slip that we spent a few years on we spent a lot of time playing board games and of course we met on awkward many many years ago but it's more than all this I have always thought of Tony as a quiet deep thinker in 2015 in what I would call peak child free pride for many of us who had just crossed 30 Tony became a parent and he was easily an outlier in a group I could see how much being a dad made him happy and probably so did he because he went along and had a second kid a few years later Tony and I speak about a lot of things but the one thing we haven't spoken about too much is about this about how parenting has changed him and as someone who is a canny observer of all around him I'm sure he has a point of view of those of us who choose to remain child free for whatever reason being of balanced world view I also know he would be open minded and not come across as a procreation evangelist Tony welcome to the show all of this makes you the right person to answer what those who chose to go child free get most wrong about being a parent and what are we missing out on wow okay first of all what what a well written and delivered intro so we honest at this point at the start of this episode you've been more prepared with the podcast then I mean I'm the host I should be I feel yeah but you're more prepared for the podcast than I was for parenting right so you made it that's interesting oh that's a great start oh that's a zinger of a start so yeah yeah no so thank you for having me on right I mean I don't know if I am the right person to answer and first of all I will put aside the pressure of representing all parents and just refer you to my Instagram bio which is don't copy for my answer sheet I have no idea what I'm doing right wow so with that caveat out of the way I'm not sure if I'm the right person to answer but you may not be the perfect person to answer but that's okay that's why I didn't call it the perfect person to answer yeah okay fine but it's like you said it's a conversation that we've not often had right so never interesting yeah I am yeah and I mean at the top of the show maybe a good time to say fertility rates as it may be we are not recruiting right like this is not podcast or a performance or some monologue for me that convinces you to be a parent yeah exactly why I kind of like wanted to have this with you yeah to be honest if I were to do it all over again I wouldn't I wouldn't be a parent but at the same time I'd say being a dad is one of the best roles that I've played that I'm happy with so far touch it so there is always that dichotomy right is that you can never sort of choose the other path right and and always yeah I think it's a philosophical friend Kierkegaard who basically said that you have to choose the path that you'll have least regrets about right and you can never know which one it is so to be honest what has parenting been like like I said it is nothing like you think it is when you start out right which is why I said you probably more prepared for this than I was for parenting right so everything that I thought about before which was very little turned on its head right and and I would say in hindsight in a good way so off the top of this thing I would I would basically say that the very first realization that I had I think the first thing that I wrote when Emma was born as I held her in my hand there's also a little bit revisionist and literary is that as I held her and I didn't know how to hold it a baby right I realized that parenting you start out thinking is about teaching your progeny how to live life and pass on your wisdom and in that moment when I held her and I didn't know how to I realized it's actually the other way around right it's that your kid is going to teach you about a lot of things that you didn't know right so I think that this culture sorry to interrupt you that reminds me of that this is culture in Bandara somewhere right which is a birth scene basically and the title of that being a child gives birth to a mother which I thought was a very nice way of freezing it's sorry sorry you were saying no no absolutely I mean yeah I think this this other Malayalam movie called Bro Daddy right where Kritviraj and Mohan Lal are basically like Mohan Lal is his dad but also his bro right like they have that kind of relationship but it ends with like an ad for a maternity hospital and he creates where he says not just for newborn children but for newborn parents too yeah so I think one of the fundamental things therefore is that if you flip the lens and say you're not supposed to pass on wisdom they're going to teach you a bunch of shit that you didn't know it's actually free right so I think one of the misconceptions that therefore people have is that having a child means it's about being more serious right I think the opposite is true is that you get freed up to be the silliest version of yourself right and no one's that's interesting yeah I mean you call it dad jokes right basically they are just bad jokes but now you have the permission to say because you're a dad, right? So yeah, and you'll probably have an audience that will love. - Yeah, exactly, right? And you will have an audience that kind of thinks like you, right? So last night I moved to Australia now fairly recently and because it's winter, Emma is still on the same bed as us, she's 10. Even otherwise she is, but like because it's winter, you can't even say anything. So as we were just gently winding down and talking about something and there's this place called Jilong, G-E-E-L-O-N-G. And I was correcting Rosanna's pronunciation saying, it's not Jilong, it's Jilong, right? And then Emma is like, ooh, I'm like, okay, what? And she's like, mama, you didn't know it was pronounced Jilong? G that took you a long time. - Oh, okay. - Wow, you must have been proud. - Yeah, as very proud, right? So it works both ways is that you create a space or they create a space for you where they allow you to be the silliest version of you. It like, so probably my childless other version of Tony would have played harder and harder board games saying the harder the mechanics, the better it is, right? But you don't mind, like, that you should-- - Or not board games at all, maybe you would have-- it's interesting that you said board games so that because I expected the sentence to end with at work. There-- - Yeah, I mean, I think the classical switch, therefore, is you don't mind playing like battleship or monopoly or one of these games, where you can inflict maximum pain on a kid, right? And be like, yeah, I think that's-- I don't know if I answered what you set out to-- - No, you didn't. No, you didn't. I mean, obviously, that's just an opening for us to get into this a lot more. But kind of like when you said, you know, having a kid allows you to be a little more silly, I also assume that has an impact on the rest of your life as well, like, what is all this kind of for, you know, what is all this productivity for, you know, way? And that has-- And like, one thing I've-- I mean, I spoke about dinks a little earlier, but I feel like that is a population that also has a run's the risk of, okay, let us productivize everything. Let us, you know, all that I feel like parenting has kind of softened that for you a little bit. I mean, as somebody who's worked in kind of like, in as corporate and environment as it gets, do you think that dynamic holds true or am I just overthinking this? Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, being a parent is not like a part-time thing, right? It's part of your everyday life. Yeah. From the moment you wake up to the moment, they sleep. It's the, it's in the background, right? So work is part time, if you think about it from that perspective, at least that you have a way or at least some ways to say, okay, after seven or whatever, this is all going to happen, but a kid can something can happen or they can reach out to you at any point of time. Yeah, correct. I mean, so if you think about it, right? I mean, it's like a, probably a bad way of putting it, but generally, when do you feel good about it? And when you do something hard that you didn't know you could or when something makes you happy and laugh, right? And with parenting, you encounter these moments on a daily basis, right? Like, yeah, there would be situations where you've not previously encountered what you basically enabled is like allowing two kids to play with thermo calls. And they're like the entire house is flooded with damn thermo call balls, right? And you have to, and it takes, because I mean, there's no help, obviously. Yeah, that's it. That's a, that's a situation, by the way, could not have been a theoretical one. No, obviously, that's a situation. Yeah, and so before you allow them to play, right? You're like being the cool dad saying, yeah, what is a big deal, you know, go and get wet in the rain. Like, it's not a problem, like play with thermo calls, but the consequences of the thermo calls hit you on day three as you're still cleaning up with your dice, right? So, but at the end of it, like, once you've sort of done it, you're like, okay, I mean, it was not all that bad, right? So, it allows you to do hard things that you didn't know you could, like, they might, you know, fall or have like a bad time at school, stuff like that. And you sort of definitely show them perspective and it gives you a full film, right? Because you do a hard thing, it makes you feel happy. On the opposite side, like you have a terrible day in your life or at work or whatever. And in my experience, my kids at least, they either make you laugh or see the silly side of things, right? Like, you are really wondering what you're doing with your career and your life and your 40 years, this is not how I imagine it going. And then suddenly, Rafa walks up and takes a shot, surf and shows me his butt, right? And like, and to be clear to those who are listening, Emma and Rafa are Tony's kids. So when Tony randomly says Rafa comes and shows me his butt, he is not talking about the athlete that his son was named after, but indeed, Rafa, Sebastian, Tony's son. - Three years ago. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He's three now. - Wow. - He's three and he shows you his butt, like, and you're like, - And then just puts things in perspective, doesn't it? - Yeah. - Yeah. - But previously, you thought of like a moon shot as something you wanted to, you know, some. - Oh, no, I see where you're going with this, yeah. - Morning is where it lets, so the moon. - Oh, I thought you would end that with like, gently smacking his bum. That would probably be a moon shot. - Yeah, so I think that's a difference, right? It allows for, it's full time, but it allows for both these different kinds of things, right? It allows you to do things that you previously thought you were incapable of. At the same time, most often it is extremely frustrating, right? So I think once you sort of, like, it's like getting a new car, right? Like the first, the first crash you get and the second scratch you get, really, really hurt you. It points you and you're like, what the fuck, right? Like, but then you realize you're driving in Mumbai and like it is inevitable that something or the other happens. And essentially the car is supposed to take you from point A to point B. It was not even to be like a pristine vessel of state as a whatever. And you do the same with parenting, right? And the goal is not perfection, right? You will have bad days. You will have screaming matches with your kids. It will make you fight so much more with your partner because it then no longer just your partner, right? Like they have additional roles. And you kind of, at the end of it all, you have to put things in perspective because there is no other way. So it allows for a range of these things to be honest. So the goal, I would say, is not perfection, is that you have no choice but to show up every day, right? And how do you sort of make yourself account? It is not like you end role in the gym and you're like, okay, this is six month fitness program. And I'll stick to it every day. Or I have a two month diet because I want to lose four kilos and a calorie count. It is that it is every day for the rest of your life, right? So you have to find a way to show up every day and not let perfection be the goal because then you'll just end up in a VP mess which you do the first couple of times. But then you learn, I suppose. Yeah, and it's amazing. I mean, Utsavall always speaks about, you know, content project as a child. And you are kind of like saying the exact same things that he does when he speaks about, you know, about caste and all that is just about showing up. Don't worry about perfection. You might be irritated that your first couple of attempts aren't perfect or even good for that matter. Yeah, then you learn along the way. And I want to take that analogy a little further. And one of the things that both of us say in that program we run is that, you know, the act of sticking with something imperfectly reveals things about you. And if we were to be philosophical about it, we would say that you discover yourself through your content project. And I would like to think that the same thing is true of being a parent as well. What are some things that I mean, we've touched up on this theoretically before, but what are some parts of you or your personality or your thinking that parenting revealed to you? Like, I don't think being a pun maker and making dad jokes was, I don't think you need a parenting to do that. Now you have an audience of two captives to unleash them on, but what are some things that surprised you about yourself? Yeah, I think it fundamentally changes you, right? Is that people talk about empathy as a gym or a workout, that anyone can learn empathy? And I think parenting is a perfect example of that, right? Like, because I had, like, I have an elder brother, so I had an nephew before. And I know my feelings towards him when he was a little boy and he used to do naughty things was I was a not the most empathetic, right? And like, for instance, I mean, let me make it a little bit more democratic or like practical for everyone to understand. If you get onto a flight and you hear a baby cry, before you had a baby of your own, you're probably annoyed, right? You're seeing what the hell like. Like, I can't, you know, get into this baby up like, what the hell are you? whatever try this that and the other if you're not capable of keeping your kid quite new even to serve to fly so on and so forth right. But once you have a kid and you get on a flight right and even if it's not your kid crying, your empathy automatically goes to the parents because you know that you know that your kids are fundamentally yeah not necessarily within anyone's control right. You you high five your partner saying a our baby is not crying but actually most of the empathy is for the parents saying you know we've been there and like sad for you right like so it puts things a lot into perspective in three directions right one is that it makes you more empathetic. Secondly when you see your kids grow up and inevitably like jeans play a part unless you adopted a kid of course inevitably most often jeans play a part and you see them doing exactly the same kind of things that you did as a kid and you try to maybe understand better right. So for example with Emma interesting very clear that you know I had a suspicion that I had used to when I was growing up but with her and like the kind of things that Rosanna would get frustrated about it made me want to sort of dig deeper into it and understand and explain because there is no point in you trying to get this kid to stick to a schedule because she won't right at the same time she'll come with the most creative insane kind of things that you could never have thought about so both are parts of it right so it helps you understand young you are a lot better it helps develop empathy like I said and also more importantly it helps you ironically understand your parents better right and you always thought of them as these people who had answers to everything and you know did the best for you but you really they were absolutely clueless dude like they were winging it like exactly like you are right now yeah and you feel like okay so I mean they made mistakes they would have like there might be some things that hurt you about things that they did that thing but they were winging it dude like they were way more imperfect right and it actually makes you at least for me much closer to your parents like it it helps you like it's okay dude like big deal like you get to be friends with your parents again if you've that way that's interesting that's a very interesting sort of thing like empathy for a whole bunch of things puts a whole lot of things in perspective suddenly you're not annoyed at that couple who's chosen to bring the kid on board but also kind of like be that on that note what you're going through you're not like you didn't choose to I mean it's not like you're like you want to have this experience on the flight that's so interesting man like yeah I think there is no there is a scene in friends I don't remember it exactly but basically where Ross comes up and he's very annoyed that something is happening and Phoebe says wait the exact same thing happened to Rachel and you didn't have a problem and Ross is like but this is inconvenient for me so the moment you get to be the person on the wrist yeah suddenly empathy comes from all sorts of directions like the empathy that was deep inside you it just comes hurting out so yeah that's how it goes so one of the reasons why a lot of people feel like not to have kids or whatever is because they think their interests or whatever is going to they won't have time for it anymore I'm not going to go to the extreme to say that you know because I don't know whether you have been able to scratch all your creative which is but I've seen you from a from a distance and since 2015 you have been able to keep yourself reasonably creative right like we run projects together you have of course a run a couple of your own podcasts etc on the side and just knowing you as a person it just seems like 20 26 Tony versus 2015 Tony a lot more well read a lot more philosophical about things so on and so forth so I'd like to think that you know that part of you hasn't really gone away so how have you kind of balanced that like like one of the worries always is like if I have a kid then I won't have time for myself have you found that to be true for yourself I mean I again I don't expect kind of like oh no like it's all growth and it's all anti-dorian also that's why I wondered you want is you provide a very realistic answer for this like when you started off by saying that no I would choose not to perhaps 10 years ago I thought that was very very revealing so like what's that answer for you now like I mean how have you been able to kind of keep Tony Sebastian and not father of two kids you know chugging along creatively in this time of being a parent yeah I think two things I'll say one is personal right it depends on the kind of person you are and whether I was so I mean I did metallurgical engineering in n80 were angle which is where I first took up crosswords right and so literary and debating club was my everything right so I disregarded metallurgy happily there's no problem but then I work for a couple of years at Oracle which is when I fine-tuned my crosswords and scrabble and stuff right so it's not like I was terrible at my job or anything it is that I've always found that for me personally if I prioritise my day and get shit right there is always enough time for stuff right so even if it is a post MBA job maybe except for the first couple of years where you're still finding your feet once you sort of settle into that rhythm for me I've never needed like 8 to 10 hours of work in a day to get shit that right maybe like you need two to three hours then there are some meetings that are unavoidable but otherwise my sort of the person I am I find most joy in creating things right so we're talking about for instance we were talking about Mohan the other day right our friend who was actively considering a career move that can go one way or the other and you know Rosanna's question was like you know at you know he's done pretty much everything like why would he consider something as opposed to something more peaceful right and and my answer was like there are people who find joy in actually sort of creating things rather than spending time idle right so if I were told that you can have an endless vacation of three months and spend money I think I'd still be happier if I was creating something right so that's personal so I don't think that goes away right so there is no element of sacrifice there it is just time management right it is like taking a harder job was the less hard job obviously like I said parenting is full time right like it can be the when you're in the zone and you're in the middle of something like your kid needs you for something and then you have to show up right but that aside I think it's deeply personal for me that if you don't have the ability to I mean if I don't do something creative not necessarily the epitome of something it's something that scratches my each in my brain then I'm not happy right but two actually is more universal is that having a kid actually does two things to you right one is it helps you stay endlessly curious right because they come and ask you the what are probably the dumbest questions but you pause and think you're like wait I really don't know how that works right and like they can ask you questions that you being a hardened possibly 40-year-old take for granted right and and don't answer automatically right like so early on like when Emma was just born I was basically having this conversation with Rosanna saying you know what there I was just taunting her saying you know what Rosanna might end up sorry Emma might end up becoming a less behavior you need to be okay with that right and so immediately she said fine I'll be okay with that what does she turns out to be a vegan how will you handle it right wow that's a one two that I wasn't expecting right so cut to 10 years later last evening Rafa wanted some nail polish right on his on his toes and Emma obviously obliged and Rosanna's first reaction was that it's okay that you're putting it because you're little but actually nail polish is only for girls not boys right and Emma is the one who said mom I didn't think you were gender biased like how can you say such a thing nail polish is for everyone right and then you can see the tension between mother and daughter where obviously like she can't accept it outright but I know for a fact that Rosanna's thinking about it for the rest of the time it's so curiosity is kept alive if you have a child just by sheer dint of the kind of questions they ask it can be questions that you often don't have answers to right like how does this thing work right and see it works right but like how every why why they ask the five why still tell you either like pull out your hair or google it and then come back and give them an answer later but also just by sheer dint of what their lives are like you get a different perspective and it helps you stay endlessly curious so on the one hand you have the kid living their life on the other hand you you get a certain perspective. But I think there is a multiplier effect to this. So when I was doing like I said before we started recording, last time she met towards when I was running a crossroad workshop. So when I started out making crosswords, the aim was very clear. I wanted to be known as a clever person. But now when I run these workshops, my aim is actually flipped on its head is to say, if there is a beginner and they've spent two hours with this workshop, they should be fascinated by cryptic crosswords for at least one week. And beyond that, obviously it takes a little bit of effort from them. But they should come out of this thing saying, wow, this is really cool. I didn't know I could do this. So I think so age automatically does that you where you realize that cleverness is not everything. But I you know, you can't separate these variables out. But I think to an extent having a kid also multiplies that effect. So yeah, I'm not sure if you still answered the question of how do you make time for all of these things. But I suppose I I love the I'll tell you the difference is that actually the things that end up taking up time in your life are not necessarily the ones that you yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. They just so I don't think you kind of add to your calendar or whatever I suppose. Yeah, I suppose it kind of helps you separate out what is actually needed for the job and needed for your what have you found yourself more interested in after becoming a parent or it could be something that just you know, a new hobby, a new creativity that you started after I don't know, watching Bluey with. Yeah, no, I think maybe I mean initially when you start off, right, you think of your kid as a project and the best version of you that existed. Yeah, stuff like that. And I think fairly soon, for me, I fairly soon I gave up, right? Like I wouldn't push Emma into multiple structured activities to say learn guitar also learn P and also learn swimming also because I never had the opportunity, right? I think free play is great, but I think one thing that is basically the the selfish energy is that every parent puts up their kids artwork on the fridge, right? No matter objectively how terrible it is, you're always proud of your kids work, right? So what I am most, I would say, interested in at this point is not treating kids like a project, but also ensuring that if is there a way to keep their natural creativity and curiosity alive, right? So, for instance, pun, ran this will tea, right? We have would I like you, which is basically a parallel game show, but we play amongst friends, right? So Emma gets in my wife, yeah. Yeah. So Emma gets interested in it. She's like, can I join? And my answer will always be yes, right? Like, okay, come see what is there because it is interesting. It is something that new that you are interested in and something that you wouldn't get exposure to otherwise, right? Realistically, it is not a game for a 10 year old, right? But she thinks it won't give me and she has fun and stuff like that, right? And so after that pun created this PPT roulette, PPT, what do you call it? PPD potluck, right? Where like four or five of us just bring a presentation for 10 minutes and then showcase it, right? So for me, I asked Emma, would you like to present something, right? And then she came up with a portfolio of fraudsters, right? Which are the friends that are monsters and she showcased it. And like, to me, it was the best out of all of the PPTs that were there, right? So I think I am definitely invested and interested in seeing how much Emma can push what I was not able to knowing fully well that, you know, I should be putting pressure on her, but how do we keep that curiosity alive, right? So I would love to see, you know, them taking on horizons that we didn't. And like, this, this, I think is true for most parents, right? Because like, when I hit the show in Chennai, I stayed with Prashant, right? So his son is 11 and he's deeply into cricket, right? Prashant was actually a fairly good cricketer. But the kind of stuff that he does for Sun Vikran, this out of the world, right? Is that he goes, wakes up, goes to every match, obviously, but also he gives him tips, tricks, mentally conditioning that this and the other. Make sure he goes to the nets even if he's had like a tough day, like, make sure his protein intake that this and the other continues to be the highest. And I think it is part of your selfish nature that you want to make sure that your kids achieve more than you ever did, right? So I think to the previous point, right, where I said, it's no longer about being clever, but probably helping someone else. It's not altogether altruistic. It is still selfish to say, I played a part in, you know, either this person getting crosswords or making sure my kid progresses. So automatically, you sort of take out the byline out of the equation, right? So I don't know if you remember, Chuck, like long ago, probably 2008 or 2009 or something, you asked me if we can turn a project together, right? And my initial reaction was no. And he said, huh, why? And I said, because I want to name one of the things that I do, right? And then I think it was probably seven years later when we did the third slip where there was no way to attribute who writes what, right? And that's an AIDS thing. You'll become okay with it. But now as a parent and then 10 years later, you're automatically not looking at the violation. And this works out even when we sort of you know the release stories that we write between me, Nithyanand Prasanth, all three dads, is that there is much less creative ego in me personally in my journey. And I think for the other two as well, which is why it works well the way it does is that you have zero ego, right? You've created a character. You want to say that the real stories are basically I write 1000 words, then the next person writes 1000. Yeah, yeah, the person finishes it and we cycle it to say third goes first, second goes, you know, but the point is that to have that kind of lack of ego, at least for me, is an outcome of parenting, right? So, oh, nice. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. In a round about way, right? So, the things that I'm interested in right now are more related to building up, being part, I always was a front stage guy, right? I want to be the guy with the mic. I like to think I'm less so and parenting is probably the reason for that. That is so interesting again. I am just, I didn't expect to be drawing parallels with say creative projects and parenting so much, but, you know, what you're saying, I mean, you literally, you say example of creative, but I don't remember what I asked you to collaborate in in 2008 or 2009. I mean, yeah, I don't know, it was probably one of those same day, one of those say, yeah, maybe it was only early Twitter, early vlog kind of things. But this is in the world of content and creativity. This is one of my favorite videos on YouTube. This is thing called Everything is a remix, which basically speaks about how there are no really original ideas. And that's kind of like a feature out of bug is that everything is just built on the back of something. This is a small bit of twist to it. And that twist is also likely to kind of come from somewhere, somewhere else. And that is so fascinating when you extrapolate that to kids, you might be proud of something that your kid did. Yeah, no, but then it might be sobering to think that that little piece of creativity or that one little thing didn't necessarily come from your instructions or your genes, but maybe something that they picked up from a friend in class or blueie or or just something that they read in a book or something like that. That must be again, I, you know, you spoke a while back. I used that example of the airline empathy thing that you said there. I suppose maybe it's as a sign that both of us are in the 40 zone when we say phrases like we feel like you're connected to the rest of the world and all that sort of thing. But it is kind of like that, right? It's like the entire world for whatever it is. All the piece of media that she's consumed has made Emma the person that she is to do and it's not just you and your instructions. How do you decide when? Yeah, go on. Yeah, just practically how this plays out right is that when we started bits and pieces, which is like dub the friendliest cricket podcast. The idea is that you have a roster that is never the same, right? I think over about 180 episodes we'd probably have had about 70 to 80 different people on the podcast, which is crazy if you think about it, right? So there are two parts to this where I think this plays out. One is obviously someone needs to edit this chaos and it's usually Nithin or me, right? I would say probably 65% Nithin, 35% me. I've edited most of the episodes. And as I say, Nithin does a far better job of editing purely because he is that easy. And he puts in a lot more effort than I do not that I do a bad job to be honest. I'm proud of my editing as well. But one place where I have a very strong point of you is when you are a host on that podcast, right. You cannot also be try to be the smartest person in the group and you know when you have a cricket group with a podcast. Sorry, Tambros, but like Tamilians love to speak a talk, right. I'm just being facetious, but there are people with different kinds of character. There are people who are naturally open to speaking and keep on talking, right, whether or not. And fairly entertaining, right. There are other people who are good on let's say Twitter or the WhatsApp group, but maybe shy in front of a mic and not necessarily sort of be able to speak as well as someone else, right, purely because they haven't had the experience, right. So as a podcast host in my opinion, I have very strong views to say you cannot therefore also try to be the smartest person in the road, right. Your job is like in in volleyball, you have to be a setter, right. You are basically if the ball is about to fall down, you make sure you keep it off the ground and someone else is picking it up. Someone else is smashing. And you need to be okay with that, right. I don't know if it's age or parenting that's done this to me, but I have very strong views to say this is bad podcast hosting for bits and pieces. This is good podcast hosting for bits and pieces. Right. So two parts. One is if I'm saying that it's a friend days podcast and anyone can come on. It is essential that everyone feels like they contributed. And secondly, for the listener, ultimately we are doing the show for the listener. There needs to be a coherent strand of thought, right. So as a host, you don't get obsessed about the point that you're trying to make. But you try to keep the slow of the show going. That's a hero. That's the thing that you're working towards. Yeah. So that is easier for the editor, but also it's more pleasant for the listener, right. I wouldn't say I succeed all the time, but I have a very strong perspective about this, which I think comes as a result of, you know, what we just discussed is in terms of parenting. Lessening of ego, pushing someone forward, which was not natural to me at all, if that makes sense. This is why I wanted to have this conversation with you, whether you said you're not the right person, perfect person. I knew you would have some philosophical answers and some as specific as I learned to become a better podcast editor/host as a result of parenting. I think we have the clickbait for this episode sort of sorted already. How has parenting another reason I wanted to speak to you is because you are a two-time parent, if I may. So what has kind of like the first experience taught you that makes you slightly more better prepared the second time? And you started this conversation by saying that I was more prepared for this episode than you were for parenting. Two completely different stakes, but and efforts I would like to think, but in any case, how is around two different for you or how do you perceive it to be different? Do you feel like better equipped now or do you feel less equipped in some way or again, there are multiple variables that play here, right? But I think what is universal and it bears out is that what I don't know if it's Kanaman or one of these people called the peak end theory, right? Is that people only remember experiences as what was the peak of the last peak or the end. Because every time we've flown with Indigo, we said I'll never fly Indigo again, right? And then next time you book Indigo. So I think biologically, again, your program to forget most of the stuff that happened as a first-time parent, right? Because I really don't remember if you asked me at what age did Emma start walking or say her first word or what was annoying about that period. I think biologically, your program to forget all of that shit, right? Because otherwise you wouldn't do it a second time, right? And to be honest, we were in planning on having a second kid, it just happened and then like you accept it, right? So the variable that is there is universally, I think you forget everything, right? Which is great because otherwise you wouldn't do it a second time, honestly, I would. But the variable that happens is like your first kid can be an angel and the second one can be a devil or vice versa or both can be same. In our case, Emma was a really, really hard child growing up, right? And Rafa was the opposite. So and also we had significantly aged and you knew what the pressure points of the fights that you would have amongst you as partners would be. It was much easier the second time around, right? I would never, like I said, like it was not planned. I would never have opted to have a second child. But once it happened, it was, it was much easier, much, much smoother also because the second child himself was easier. But I think there is a lot of learning as well, right? As the first time something happens to you, the first time you have a heartbreak, right? You think it's the end of the world, right? You think this kind of pain has never happened to anyone else. To anyone. Anyone. My pain is the most pain any human being has ever felt. Of course, that's why art takes us to begin with. Like if someone think their pain or the beauty that they saw has already been, if they thought that it's already been experienced by someone else, you don't write a love story, you don't write a song, you don't do a movie, right? I think this is unique to you and to no one else, right? And then by watching several movies and reading books, you realize that it happens to everyone and every human's experience from beginning to end is the same, right? Whether you start or doesn't atheist and then you condone religion and then eventually towards the end, probably you become more spiritual than you ever thought you would. It is always the same, right? But you think it is unique to you and your first heartbreak is definitely unique to you, not necessarily your third or fourth, right? So you are a better equipped to handle those things. And I think it applies for parenting also, right? That this is not new to you. It is something that you know is going to be hard, but also you have either build up the resilience or the tools to deal with it. And that makes it much more joyful, right? I think I'm making really bad advertisement for having kids. It's not all trauma and terror. I don't think you are though. But I think you, I think you're a better equipped, right? And it's a function of both experience and ages is what I would say. Yeah, what do you think when the other Tony would have been doing now? Maybe let's kind of end with that. That's a tough one, man. I have no idea. I think honestly I would have probably gone down a path where I would still have wanted to be creative. I don't know what I would have tried and when I would have given up, I would think I would be more a front stage person than being okay with like some other things. Be in the background. Yeah, I like being an editor, being the guy who just lifts it up. I don't think that would have happened. I would have definitely been one of those insufferable obnoxious people who want their name on everything. Not that I'm not that anymore. I'm just saying I'm a lesser version of that, right? And probably I think aging does this to everyone whether or not you have kids. Like you said, the assumptions that you had in your 20s, in your 30s, they change again in your 40s. I'd have probably found multiple things that give me meaning for a short period of time and then moved on from there. So I don't think for me at least sustained meaning as possible. So I just been hopping from one thing to another and I'd have been more obnoxious, probably more productive version, probably but slightly less. Having said that I wouldn't do it again, I much rather prefer the person I am now to. Of course, of course. And you know, I think you might be a bit harsh on your hypothetical other self because I think you're just taking the way. So how old were you when you had Emma for the first time, 26, 27, 30. Yeah, 39. Wow. Okay. 29. Yeah. So I think you're just extrapolating the forgive me to add was that was 29 year old Tony to the logical self. And it's quite likely something else. If not a kid, then it might have been, whatever moving cities or some other life change, some other cliff events that ended up making that person also kind of like as I'd like to think that there are multiple versions of us all kind of connected through the same thread and this apparent version of Tony and the non parenting version of Tony, maybe a single Tony, maybe a gay Tony, but all of them are kind of thinking about the same thing because they were absolutely there may be that's a nice philosophical way to end this. Tony, thank you for coming on and answering questions that are I have always wondered, not just about parenting, but to be very honest, about one of my closest friends. So I'm glad that it took this, I mean, yeah, one of the reasons I'm doing this is to be able to have those conversations. So thank you, this is fascinating. At least for me, the connective, the analogy between a content project and your child, maybe we shouldn't like, maybe that's not the takeaway that we should be putting up and please do not quote us out of context over here. I think all it just becomes clear that gets you more views, listen, so whatever. No, no, I want to give you a show that Emma would be proud to listen. Oh, wow, okay. I don't think that's happening. What would Emma say? What would Emma say if she heard this by the way? Maybe you'll listen to that. Like what would Emma say? Does Emma consume the content, if I may, that you put up? Oh, I mean, you remember left over less, any intro, which is basically Emma and Millen. So she's always fascinated by these things, right? So the next thing that I want to do in my interim break is I want to try and write stories for screen, right? So Emma is also, oh, it's just a thing, man. It's something like, you're not going to quote me at all every two years of the day and say, where is your screenplay, right? It is something you want to try and do. But like, something about Emma, she's always fascinated and she's in this phase where she wants to be deeply involved, right? So she writes stories. So when I said I want to do this, like, can you turn one of my stories into a screenplay, right? Oh, that's so sweet. If you're making into a movie, can I play a part, right? So for her, she's thrilled to be a part of Emma. Involved. Yeah, she's also, I think by dint of being the eldest daughter, and I think all eldest daughters will not along when you say this, you automatically take on the roof of a loved problem solver for family, right? So because there's a good age difference between Emma and Rafa, it's probably one unacknowledged thing about Emma is that she's made it much easier because she can take care of Rafa. She's much better at strategically talking him out of tantrums than either of us, right? So she loves to be involved. She also has the unfair burden of being the eldest daughter and problem solver. I think it's most eldest daughters I've seen end up being this for the family, right? That they are the go between the parents, the parents and siblings, right? Not necessarily elder brothers, but yeah, elder daughters for sure, so. Yeah. She'd be happy. She'd be like, can I be on the next podcast? That's what she's saying. Yeah, can I be on the next podcast? Yeah, yeah. What are the happiest, I think I'll end with this. One of the happiest things that happened to pun and me last year is when we asked you, can we speak to, can we have a Google me call with, not you, but Emma and you wanted to see what it was like because we again, child-free, not too many of her friends have kids, we don't have that much exposure to kids and especially one who has, in a way, come off age, if I may, like Emma does, you're able to have a conversation has her own thoughts, opinions, feelings and not just, you know, soft toys and blue-y. And that was, that was interesting. Well, like it just made us think and the way she was playing around with all the stuff on Google meet for instance, I know it's a very small takeaway from that conversation, but I was like, her first instinct when she was using Google meet, which all of us use for, you know, meetings and all that was to play around with all the filters and. - Can I do anything? - Oh, there's so much joy to be had from, there's so much play to be done in this thing and maybe if we were having this technology when we were even 12 or 13, like when we got Microsoft Word for the first time, we all played around with the fonts and now we're like, let's just crank out the deck as quick as possible. So that made me stop and think a little bit and I'm sure that's, you're leaving this on the table. - It's permission to be silly again, right? - It's permission to be silly, it's permission to be silly and if she's silly, I get to be silly. - You get to be silly as well. It teaches you that little bit of perspective, I suppose, which in a way is much better than a LinkedIn bro telling you to slow down a little bit and all that. Tony, thank you once again for coming onto the show and for sharing all this with us, yeah. So all the best for whatever-- - We should start a block together. - Oh no, only if Emma has a role to play, right? - Absolutely. - Thank you for listening to the right person to answer. New episodes release every Tuesday and you can follow the show on all the usual podcast places. If you'd like to get in touch with me, my details are in the show notes. The key cast logo and visuals you see are by Meher Lele. The music you're hearing now and at the start of the show is composed by Bertie Ashley and has been performed by Vikram Vivekanand and Vine Ramakrishna. The show's been produced by Abbas Mohmin. My name is Deepak Gopalakrishnan, you can call me Chuck. And hey, before I go, just a thought. I believe everyone in this world occupies a unique intersection, a category of one. So dear listener, what question are you, the right person to answer?