What Does It Really Mean to Be Palestinian?

Today, even though as the world and the international community is more aware of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but yet I feel as a Palestinian that they still don't understand the Palestinian identity. I can go tomorrow, live in Germany, and that's it, but I don't want it, because I adhere to me, this is my place. I think it's on us to show the world what a Palestinian identity is, and it's much more than resistance. Living in daily life under this pressure, under this conditions, under this technical situation, this is all. I'd like to preserve everything that we grew up with, with the history, with the culture, with the stories, with the connection to the land, and at the same time, being able to be proudly standing up and say, "We have Israeli neighbors next to us, and we live together." What does it mean to be Palestinian? Something I hear from a lot of Israelis and Jews is that Palestinian identity isn't real. They're a made up people, their identity is built entirely on rejection and opposition to the Jewish state. Are they right? I sat down with two Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Navin Sanduka, a feminist and activist, and Zia de Bahasan, an educator and tour guide. I wanted to hear what Palestinian identity means to them, where it comes from, where it's at, and what most Jews and Israelis are missing. Their answers, surprised to me, challenged me, frustrated me, and inspired me. This is Borderlines. Okay, all right, great. First I want to talk to you about, what does it mean to you to be Palestinian? Like any mean to any somebody born in his country, what does it mean to you if you born in Iraq or if you're born in Israel or if you're born in any place in the world? It means a lot, it's the place where you're born. You know, the place where you learn your custom of the place. It means how you grow up with displays, with the food, with the education, with the cultures, with all of them. It's been for me a lot, I'm from Jerusalem, or Jerusalem is from me a lot. I cannot live with them, I'm married with a German, I can't leave easy to go, I say I can take my children growing up now, they're some of them living in German. I can go tomorrow with them, Germany, and that's it, but I don't want them. Because I hear from me, this is my place. When I say Palestinian culture, what comes to mind? A food, you know what I mean, hummus. Actually when I was experimenting yesterday, all this traditional Palestinian dish, you know, musakh and Khluba, shakshuka, all kind of this, this is Palestinians. Plus, not just only this, also the trees, you know, the culture of a different way, you know, the trees, what they call it, the embroidery. So when you think about these symbols of Palestinian culture, the trees, the embroidery, the food, the Khluba, and all these different things that you mentioned, can you think about it outside of the context of the conflict? I remember, I remember very well. For the last 15 years of changing, before that, I'm now 61. I wouldn't have guessed, I'm 61. When there was to be the villages, a woman, coming and selling the fruit, all the musk get through the steps to there, you know, through the here Nablus Road, in Tusai, every woman, you know, them to come from different villages, along Jerusalem, Bidu, Bidlihanan, Dixia, all their plays from Qadar Amallah, and all that, these two countries were completely all believing, you know. Eighthary ones for them, they're different design, and colors, and these colors and design, the show from where the road comes from, they come from Ramallah area, they come from Hebrew area, they come from Jerusalem area, they come from this, you know what I mean. Something so beautiful. You know, the fruit, even, the food, the vegetables, we have a test, we used to come from 2 kilometers, we can smell ink. Now, if you look all the food, it's coming out, it's no smell. No, you speak, I mean, you know what I mean? This is part of the culture, it's not me and people, the beauty is becoming, going, working in the farmer. Me and my mom used to take me to what they call it, now it gets the ape, you know, it gets the ape. You speak all the same farmers, I remember very well, is to go in the morning, when the beauty is all that, collecting the fruit, we used to buy it from them directly, from there. And now it's a Jewish Israeli name? No, it's a color, it's a color, you know, and so, I mean, this is part of my culture, this is part of my roots, you know, I mean, my grandfather, you know. Then now they call us of his Zewi. We are already from my family, originally from Jerusalem, so why are you in Jerusalem? Because my grandfather, he used to dealing with the sheep, he used to selling sheep, he was a business man, he was most of the time he was in Gaza. Dealing their business, so everybody, so, I live in Gaza, you know, there'll be one like that, this talk about 70 years ago, so, you know, that thing. He used to live all the time in Gaza, even he married his daughter to somebody from Gaza, you know, so, I mean, so everybody goes to Gaza, you know. I mean, this is how it goes, it's like the nickname of his Zewi, you know, for us, because of my grandfather. So, our roots, it will think, you know, I mean, my grandfather, we are all from here, from Jerusalem, you know what I mean? Where in Jerusalem? In the Old City, and they have one near, before Jefferson Street, they have a house, when you go near the Meyame Shereem? Ah, okay, yes. This is the house, like, near Damascus Gate. So, maybe our ancestors were neighbors, my family is also from the Old City of Jerusalem. So, at the end, we have also, my grandmother had a house in Ankara, one of them have a board within the regions, you know, TV, and I took him to the Alpegoat. My mom, she used to take me there, it was where I actually grew up. And now who's there? It's an American Jew. American Jewish family. And we go there, you know, asking me questions, you know, no, I don't want to answer any questions, I bought it. There's two things that are kind of standing out to me right now. On the one hand, the material culture, right? The embroidery, the fruit, the folkways, the ancestral memories of relationships between villages and between areas of this land. And on the other hand, this reality that exists today, of the conflict, of separation, of military occupation, that it seems to me that it's difficult for you to even to look at the culture without also talking about the conflict with Israel and with Israelis. I mean, something I go work with Mahan Yudah, I mean, the music, not just only the music in the food and, you know, the music in Mahan Yudah. Somebody has an ode, a thing for the halim or a particular tomb, you know, I mean, beat the bread, the hummus, the falafel, the Israeli food, the nationality of food. From where is the nationality of food? So you're saying that all the music and the food comes from Palestinians? I mean, you can't, I mean, it's mean, you know, again, it means, as I said, when I said, I'm Palestinian. I can be a Jewish Palestinian, I can be a Christian Palestinian, I can't be a Muslim Palestinian, I'm not a Palestinian, it's only a Muslim. Or a Christian, you know, we have also Jewish Palestinians, and you know that? Yeah, of course. Look, my grandfather was a Palestinian Jew. They would never accept a Muslim, they would never accept the occupation. Now, young generation, we don't know they have Jews, and they are able to go to even marriage Jews, I don't know family Jews and I'm being married. I know one guy, he's now 60 or 65 years old, you know, his mother Jewish, and his father Palestinian. Yeah, and he identifies as Jewish, I don't know how Jewish does a Muslim. He's a Muslim, yeah. Jewish animals. I think the point that I'm understanding from you is that, you know, we have these lines that we draw today. As a result of the conflict, which aggravates these lines, these divisions that exist, to say this is Palestinian, this is Israeli. The reality is, is that things are a lot more blurry, right? Things have always been a lot more blurry. You know, when you talk about Israeli music today, or Israeli food, we can't ignore the fact that 60% of Israeli Jews, that their grandparents spoke Arabic, and they lived in Arab and Muslim countries. So, they were bringing, they were eating their grandparents, and great questions, we're eating, we're eating hummus, we're eating falafel, we're eating shawarma. And so, when I say, I'm going to mention to you some, some symbols of Palestinian culture that I think many people will recognize, and I just want to hear what these symbols mean to you. So, let's start with, with probably the most globally recognized Palestinian symbol. The Kufir. What does the Kufir mean to you? You see, I can tell you the history of the Kufir, you know what I mean? The old Kufir was only the white Kufir, you know, and the old man used to wearing the white Kufir. It's kind of their religious side by it, without the pattern. But it was changing, you know, when the Jordanian was ruling here, you know, so then there would be the Kufir, the black and white, the Palestinians, and the red and white, it's the Jordanians. Right. The better one. Then after 67, you know, it become more politically. You know what I mean? It become like the symbol of the Palestinian, the black and the white. It's the, this, there about the Presence of Palestinians, and if you're presented like Fatih Arfi, where the majorities of the populations, you know, at that time, but Australia, maybe now, but this is changing a lot, you know. And then there was the other Kufir, you know, the red and white if you go and concert as a democratic fund, the red, red with the small ovening, you know, it used to be presented the Communist Party, you know, me and the red with the open one like the Jordanian have, you know, may represent the PFLP, you know, the Zerba Shabi. So this is why, but of course, it become, it's more going into young people, young generation in the university, you know, mean, enduring election time and all that thing to represent to who belong to, to which faction they belong to. When you see the Kufir, what do you think about something? It's very simple. It's a symbol of the Palestinians. It's a symbol of Palestinians. How does it make you feel? It's very good. It's very proud. I'm not wearing it. And I used to wear it during my university time that I used to be myself, but I'm not aware of this as a traditional. Is it like you're changing? So when you used to wear it, why were you wearing it? Why was it important to you as a young man to wear the Kufir? It's presented to myself as a Palestinian. Okay, next symbol. The key. What does the key, the Mufdah? What does it mean to you? I have nothing to do with the key because I'm not refugees. But for refugees, it gives them something very simple. There's a home where they're lost. You know, till now I know families a lot. Yet many families are making a lot of them. Till now they have the key of the old house. My grandmother, she used to have the house. Till now my uncle had it. The key to the house. So you have a key. I don't have it. My uncle. My uncle of my mother's side. So I'm going to say a word now and maybe this word speaks to you more than the key does. Hello. I'm here with you standing, talk to you, living still. This is so much for me. Still home. I'm using to go outside. I can go to Germany tomorrow. I feel nothing. Me nothing for me. Maybe you have a bit of life. Peaceful, relaxing, exploring, living fun, lift all this. And I grew up with being my wife here. I grew up in my kids here. My kids all have German citizens. And I stayed here. And I said this is our home. This is my home. I'm not leaving. Till I die. This is so much. To living in daily life, under this pressure, under this conditions, under this ugly situation. This is so much. On that note, if a young Palestinian comes to you today and says to you, what does it mean to be Palestinian? What do you tell them? I can answer you with this with the stories to it happened personally to me. Ten years ago, my oldest daughter, she was like about 11 years old. She was studying at the Schmidt School, down there. Schmidt School is German Palestinian School. I don't know what is happening under Damascus Gate, some violence. I don't know what to call that. The Army entering this school, in Mejren, and is a German, is a German school. Shooting tear gas, arresting some of the girls. My daughter. I don't know what is happening. I don't know what's coming. I come in home. My daughter she's going to go in the next day. Just cool. She's fit. And she tell me what she told me. Maybe you don't like it. I hate juice. She's an elephant, he was old. What did you say? Do you know what my answer to her? I don't want to hear this word again from you. Look, my hair is coming up. I see. I said to her, "Not everybody is the same, baba." This holiday is crazy. Acupyters is not going to turn it on the juice. They have a good juice. But this is not acupyters, but you accept them to be. So I don't want to hear this hate. This is my own experience, life. Even I go up with conditions and situations. I'm right up with all this occupation. I know it. Feel it. Many things happen. But I don't want to make it to a land of hate. For me, I want to educate my kids. Education is a power. How to deal with other human beings? I will not tell her to like the acupyters. No, don't like the acupyters. The acupyters, one day it will be empty. If you're not both favored. Do you say acupyters? Do you mean all Israelis or do you mean just Israeli-Ministerous days? Do you have government? Is it acupyters? Is it acupyters? Is it acupyters? Is it acupyters? Because of the lack of equality. For sure. Is it acupyters? If your daughter would have said, "I hate Israelis," would you respond in the same way? It depends. What should be in Clinton? I mean, should they hit their gear or equipment? I don't say nothing. Even private. That's not even. That's generally. Even private. I don't like to use a word hate. I don't like it. Hate is too strong. Yes. I don't like hate. Hate, not being Australian. No one. But they say nothing. Our hate is not so good. If you grow up with hate, you are the father. You are the one you are responsible to your own children. I'm sure that no matter what it is, you know what I mean? They were not teaching decades to hate. If this show's got you thinking, good. That's the whole point. And it's kind of what we do around here at Unpacked. Borderlines with that semi is just one of the things we're creating at Unpacked to help you dig into Israel, Jewish history, and identity through our YouTube videos, podcasts, socials, and articles the same way I try to, with real curiosity, real nuance, and no oversimplifying. So here's where to go next. If you want to keep up with everything we make, subscribe to our newsletter. Unpacked.media/join. And you'll get a weekly roundup of all the stuff we're creating. That's unpacked.media/join. See you there. We have to keep a hold. A hundred years from now, what would you like this land to look like? Describe it for me. I really don't know, but I mean, the way how it is, it's difficult to say it, but I hope it will be a real piece for it. It will be a hopefully, a way in Middle East where very beautiful places, open. I can take the bus going to Lebanon. I can come here, anywhere it can go where I look, and you have opened the people they're going, you know. And what does Palestinian and Israeli identity look like culture? What does it look like a hundred years from now? And give me hope with this new young generations of Israelis with this, what they call one yet or one one. It will give me hope. That now it will become bigger and bigger. I see the demonstration. I was last week with them in Tel. I was cry. It's either one like this, we have different stories. There's so many things that I think we could talk about and there's so much we did touch on briefly but we could get a lot deeper on. We don't agree on everything when it comes to Jewish identity, the history of the conflict. But it's totally normal and it's okay and one of the things that I really enjoyed this conversation with you is despite the things that we disagree on. I feel like through conversation with you, I feel like we could come to some type of common ground and understanding and I wish I just hope that more and more of our people Israeli and Palestinians are able to come together to the table with Nagila and with a coffee and figure out these problems together. InshaAllah, rahesihirah. InshaAllah, minit manna, we hope. We do, we hope. Peace be upon you. Thank you. Peace be upon you. That was Ziyada Buhasa. There's a lot to unpack there but one thing I want to name before we move on is that almost every symbol of Palestinian identity he reached for ended up pulling him back into the conflict. The food, the land, the embroidery, it all led back there. So with Navin Sanduka, I tried something different. I want to see if we could speak about Palestinian culture, identity, and heritage completely outside of the conflict. This how it went. Navin Sanduka, welcome to Borderlines with That's Amite. Thank you for having me today. What does being Palestinian mean to you? Well, taking the conflict out of it. So a Palestinian is an identity that we grew up with. It's an identity that comes with a lot of culture and heritage, a lot of tradition, a lot of connections, especially in Jerusalem as I am myself was born and raised in Jerusalem and we have a long history in Jerusalem as well. This is what it means to me. It's the culture, the tradition, the people and the history. Who is Navin Sanduka? You mentioned where you're from. What do you do? So right now I'm the regional director for the Alliance for Middle East Peace which is a network of 200 plus civil society organizations in both the Israel and Palestine who are working together towards achieving peace. I'm the regional director as well as an activist in Jerusalem. Sam specifically lacks a lot of Palestinian voices who can speak up about what is going on in East Jerusalem. So I'm one of those people who tend to speak up and I'm a mother for a 16 year old boy. You know, you're in the field of peace building. There's a huge elephant in the room and that's that we're having a conversation in the wake of a devastating war in the wake of the October 7th massacre of untold families completely destroyed by all of this destruction. How is that affecting your work as a peace builder? Yeah. That's a very good question and I have to say that, you know, the conflict did not start on October 7th, it started way before. And it's important to know it started way before because I do believe that we had many opportunities to stop October 7th from happening and the war afterwards way before that. As peace builders, we have always said that we do need to come up with a political horizon for young people specifically, but also for both the Palestinian and the Israeli people. Unfortunately, our voices were either too shy or race were sidelined. Now, after October 7th and the war afterwards on Gaza, you might assume that this type of work does not exist or it might have like paused for a while. What we found out and that was way in January 2024, as we did the survey, we found out that at least 70% of those organizations who are working in peace building either continue to do the work that they have been doing or just started doing this because I felt that after October 7th, there was an awakening that this is the moment for us to step in. We cannot wait for a solution. We need to be the solution. What does peace actually mean for both the Palestinian and the Israeli people? And I have to say, in Palestine and in Israel, both populations are traumatized. So we are addressing this trauma. Both people need to work within their own societies before we bring Israelis and Palestinians together. So it's all stepping up and peace specifically today. If you talk to young people, especially at least in my communities, they will call me a normalizer. They will call me like, what the hell are you talking about? There's no peace. That'd be it. Exactly. What are you talking about? And then we have to explain a little bit. What is peace? And we have to offer a vision of what it looks like. So I speak to a lot of people almost every day, Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Arabs, Muslims, Christians. And I've experienced what you just described. And that's that one of the reason why I think peace building has always been difficult in this land. But especially right now is that we're really living very different experiences and telling ourselves and each other very different stories, especially stories about each other. And I really want to kind of drill in and understand on a deeper level with you today, Palestinian identity and the stories that we tell or expose to about Palestinian identity. Many, if not most, Israeli Jews and many American Jews and Americans in general, when they think of Palestinian identity, they think of the conflict. They think of violence, they think of war, they think of terrorism, and they link many of the Palestinian symbols that they're familiar with to that violence, for example, the Kufiya, maybe even like a rock, a rock thrower, even worse, perhaps a Hamas terrorist. And so that essentially leads to a conclusion about Palestinian identity that essentially being Palestinian means being anti-Israel or anti-Israeli. How do you respond to that framing of Palestinian identity? Well, first of all, I think it's on us to show the world what a Palestinian identity is. And it's much more than a resistance. It's an identity that comes with a lot of culture, a lot of tradition, a lot of heritage. And a lot of, I assume like the best person who can actually describe it is the point, the point, when he said that we love life, when he described how beautiful the land is, when he described how beautiful it is to be a nation, a Palestinian people. And I think unfortunately most of the narratives in the TV and the media, it has shown only Palestinians doing acts of resistance, whether it is violent or non-violent. They're only actually focused on violent acts of resistance, including throwing rocks, for example. And this is the image that the international community has grown up with. Now the thing is, today, even though as the world and the international community is more aware of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but yet I feel as a Palestinian that they still don't understand the Palestinian identity. But they still think that Palestinians are calling for a free Palestine from the river to the sea and throwing everybody else in the sea. That is not true. Most Palestinians today in young people specifically are calling for a two-state solution. This is something that you don't know of. And specifically, this is an idea that most Israelis also don't know of. All statistics in Palestine show that younger people are looking for a two-state solution. An independent state of Palestine, where we can practice our right of self-determination, which means we can practice being Palestinian in our own state of Palestine. I mean, it's really difficult because the international community, up until today, they don't understand this. They don't understand the history of all of this conflict. So with regards to history, and I'm very tempted to go down the route of understanding what Palestinian popular opinion is with regards to the solution, but I'm resisting that temptation. Okay. I want to understand more the Palestinian identity. Many people that within the pro-Israel camp to use a term that I don't like, I don't like this binary of pro versus anti, but let's just use that term. Many people in the pro-Israel camp, they would say that what Palestinian history, Palestinian identity, is a product of 20th century, perhaps the 19th century, that essentially was just created in order to respond to Zionism, to respond to the establishment, to reestablishment of Israel as a Jewish state. I'm giving you the, you know, the strong version of an argument that I disagree with, right? But I want to hear you address that because essentially, they would point to immigration, regional immigration from certain parts of the Arab world, the Middle East, to the British Mandate of Palestine and say that essentially there is no historic Palestinian identity. Yeah. Well, it also comes further than that, like it also goes to the Zionist narrative of this is a land with no people. But all the historical records that we have, pictures of the past, I mean, tradition and culture is not born within 50 years or 40 years of time. It takes a lot of time. Our connection with the land, the fact that, for example, we know every single herb that grows and how to use it, how to cook with it, every single fruit. The dances that we do, even the names of seasons is linked to the land, is linked to a long history. It also, like, in historical books and records, it shows how Palestine was always like a hub for commercial and economic centre as well. And the thing is, listen, I truly also believe that historical Palestine was also part of the Levant region. We do share the same history and culture and tradition. I cannot feel that I stand up alone and saying, "I'm a Palestinian and you are Lebanese or you are Syrian." No, we're also connected by this, we're all Levant, we're all Arabs in a way. And yes, the Palestinian identity per se emerged as a result of emerging of other Arab identities around us because of the Sykes and Pico agreement, and as a response to the Zionist identity, because then how are you going to, like, are you going to, to say, "I have a right of self-determination, but I don't know who I am." Obviously, you have to come up with, "I have a right of self-determination because I am Palestinian who have existed on this land, who has connected to this land, who has history, culture, tradition, and heritage, and I want to practice this right of self-determination." I did a lot of research in terms of understanding my Palestinian cousins and neighbours a lot better, and I found that on the surface level, it's certainly the case that Palestinian nationalism was a product of a slow development from the end of, from the 1920s, all the way up to the 1960s and beyond, but that was the time in which nations and nation-states were coming all over the region and all over the world as well. So that's not unique in that sense. And so a lot of things that people say in terms of, like, una filestini, or I'm Palestinian today, the association with the flag in certain rhetoric, that is, or certain slogans and poetry, that is the product of recent era. It's everywhere. And in addition to that, I would describe that as more like a surface level of Palestinian identity. On the deeper level, there's the embroidery, there's the, there's Debka, a unique expression of Debka. Like, exactly, and you can see the difference between, say, Lebanese Debka and Palestinian Debka. Yeah, they're subtle, but they exist. Yeah. Even the laja, the dialect is different, right? It's unique in its own way. And when you look into that aspect, right, the unique relationship that Palestinian Arabic speakers have with this land, there is another version of this argument. And it's often expressed in that Palestinian identity, Palestinian identity has always existed. We have been here from time immemorial. And this is expressed by many Palestinian scholars and politicians, saying that we are Jebiusites, we are Canaanites, some of them are very proud of their Arabian lineage, wanting to specific clans and tribes that came, you know, from the hijaz in that region of Arabia. That's what you're family is one of them, right? And some of them say that we're Jewish. We're descended of Jewish people that can hurt it. That's also part of my family. Imagine that. So that's what I want to ask you. What part of that narrative? Because it can get kind of confusing because you said also that you're Arab. So what are you? Are you Arab? Are you Jewish people that converted to Islam or Christianity? Are you Canaanites? Who are Palestinians? Palestinians, I believe like every other nation in the Levant region specifically is a mix of everything. It's a mix of all this long history from the times of the Pharaohs, going to the times of the Jewish nation, to the Romans, to the different Islamic periods of time. We're a mix. If you do a DNA test right now, I'm pretty sure nobody on this world and specifically in our regions more so, will not be 100% with all a mix of all of this history, right? And specifically for my family, for example, we know that in Jordan, we do have a family in Jordan. They were able to prove that we are linked to Prophet Muhammad somehow. So there we have like a title. Wow, that's royalty. Exactly. And then in Palestine, we're linked like their cousins. And here we also have one of my great-grandfathers have a tomb in Ashkelon. It still exists today as a person who has healing powers, et cetera, et cetera. And Macam? Yes, and Macam. It still exists in Ashkelon today with the name of my family. And then you trace it, okay, from Ashkelon, you went to Hebron and then Hebron, there was a lot of intermarriages and one of the families over there was a Jewish family. So from there, they also moved to Jerusalem. And in Jerusalem, we have lots of intermarriages with Jerusalem families, et cetera. And my family is not unique in that. And I believe that this diversity is a beauty that we can actually build on for the future. I think, you know, it's interesting, right? Because we have a lot of people, and this isn't unique to Israel-Palestine, but I think a lot of us fall victim to this idea of pursuing purity, right? Yeah. That they're like that are religiously, there's only one correct way, there's only one pure way, same thing with our ethnicity and with our nationality. And the reality is the role product of historical developments and interactions between cultures. So I think that what you're explaining is what Palestinian identity is on a deeper level. But there's a disconnect between the Palestinian identity that you just described to me that is layered and multifaceted and diverse and also deeply connected in certain ways to the Jewish identity of this land. But then there's also the popular expression of Palestinian identity. And often what I see when I turn on the news or when I look, even look at Palestinian tiktokers, as I'm a tiktok, and that's, you know, that's where most of us are getting our information from. It sometimes looks like pan-Arabism, like a focus on like a broader Arab identity. And sometimes it looks like pan-Islamism, this kind of connection just to an Islamic umma, not just in this region, but the world. And the unique aspects of Palestinian identity, the parts that could, you know, maybe even help connect Palestinians to Jews, to Israelis, those aspects end up being kind of pushed away or not focused on. No, it's interesting because here I think that this is where the political identity comes in as well, like a political Palestinian identity, political Arab identity. Because we grow up, look, we speak the same language, we have the same history, the same religion, Christian and Muslim Palestinians. And I'm talking here to the linkage to the Arab world. And especially in the modern history, we're also very much linked together, starting in 1948, before that and after that. And look today at the Mondial, for example, even in Gaza, which is under destruction and trouble, they were complaining in the World Cup, yes, FIFA, FIFA 26. Every single Palestinian was, you know, cheering for Egypt. And then Morocco. Yep. And the problem is it's Morocco played against Egypt. Would we cheer that? But, but this is basically an, and you felt that you felt like what when Egypt played, it's a pride for every single Palestinian. Did you feel that? Yes, of course. Of course. We were jumping when they, when they, you know, had a goal. But then comes this layer of political. Political means, and I'm not talking about the Jewish identity. I'm talking about the Zionist identity, an identity that we perceive as a colonialist, especially today in, in today's world, in what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, with a subtler identity, especially with what's happening in the West Bank, with all the subtler violence that is going on and superiority. And this is where the clash is. It's not with a Jewish identity because, because we know, we know that we're mixed and Jewish, Judaism was always part of the Levant Arab region. But the Zionist identity is an identity that we perceive as doesn't want to belong in the region. It's an identity of superiority. It's an identity of a colonialism. It's fascinating because, you know, I can almost see a mirror image of this in the Israeli Jewish experience because, you know, Zionism to the majority of Israeli Jews doesn't mean the things that you perceive it to me, right? For some Israeli Jews, it probably does, right? I'm not going to deny that. Even if they wouldn't use the same language, there are absolutely, and we can see expressions of this with Jewish extremists, as you mentioned in the West Bank and Judean Samaria, and within other parts of Israel, that are openly advocating for a version of Zionism, which means it's either us or them, right? Exactly. It's a version of Zionism. But for the majority of Israeli Jews, that's not what it is. It's expression of our relationship to Zion, to this land. And it's like in a weird paradoxical way, in a strange way. It's like when we see, um, Palestinians identifying with Egyptians and more than other asked elements of their identity, or at least meaningfully identifying with them on the level of where all Arabs or where all Muslims, then it kind of looks to us like if there's elements of Israeli Jewelry. I wish identity that looks towards America and perhaps some elements of American society or European society, the more let's say Christian imperial elements of that society and then causes Palestinian Arabs to go, oh, that's what they're about. They're essentially colonists or crusaders or imperialists or something of that nature. And so it's like, we have these two things, there's multiple elements of identity. Jews are the product of both the East and the West. - Exactly. - We're in a deep relationship with European civilization, the United States of America, Christendom, but we're also deeply connected to Islam and the Middle East and the Semitic languages of this region. - 100%. - And it really depends on what we choose to emphasize. And I think that, you know, be really unique for us to, when we tell stories about ourselves and each other, that we build like a joint narrative that focuses on the things that connect us, as opposed to what connects us to, let's say, the bigger, let's be real, right? The bigger, imperial religions and entities of the region, right, 'cause we're tiny, tiny people, both the Jews and pastins. We're like almost the same number. - Yeah, I feel like, and I just want to emphasize on one point that when I said Zionism, this is like what comes to the identity of most, but to the mentality of most Palestinians. But because I do work in this field of peace building, I do understand all the differences that you just explain. But it's, unfortunately, one of the things that we need more of is a better understanding of what Zionism means and the different factions, if I may call it, and how it's being used by different groups. Like, for example, I cannot really compare a person who is doing, for example, protective presence, who also consider himself or herself as a Jew, and as a Zionist, but they're going to the West Bank to protect Palestinian families and communities, versus a settler who is actually committing crimes against those Palestinian families who also identify as a Zionist. And I think this is where there's a real need within the Israeli society actually to consider again what is our identity? And what do we mean by Zionism? And how do we bring this very important point that you mentioned, the link to the Arab world? I know that there are many misrachi groups right now who are coming up with, wait a second, but this is also where we belong. We also, our ancestors come from the Arab world as well. And we also want to be connected and we also want to be cheering for Morocco or Egypt. And we also want to be able to visit there and feel this history as well. It is something that's not happening within the Israeli society. And I feel that the Israeli society at large is always hijacked so that you don't go deep into those discussions is always hijacked, that your problem is with the Palestinian, is with the Arab world, wait a second. If there is peace, honestly, if there is peace between Palestinians and Israelis, what is going to happen inside the state of Israel? What's the identity of the state? And this is the real question, I think. - Yeah, no, I agree that it's a fundamental question. And both of these, I think, are elements of how, how do we define ourselves in relationship with ourselves and our history, but also with each other? And I do believe that it is an Israeli responsibility. I personally make an effort to try and articulate my vision of what Israeli Jewish liberation looks like for the future in a way that also expresses and addresses what that means for my Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, Christian cousins. And I think it's important. It's it recognizes that our destinies are intertwined. And I think that that's also not a new thing. I think it's something that's existed from even way before the state was established. And I think just parts of that history aren't emphasized. And it was expressed by Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews and was also expressed by Ashkenazi Jews that saw themselves as being deeply connected not just to the Arab people that were living here, but also to the region in general. Let's not forget that the European civilization as a whole saw Ashkenazi Jews as a not just 11 teen or a Middle Eastern presence as a Palestinian presence. Emmanuel Kant, the famous German philosopher, literally described Ashkenazi Jews living in Germany as the Palestinians living among us, right? Instead, something for us to think about, there are elements of our history, both of our histories that we could choose to emphasize. - Exactly. - The biggest barrier I see is our lived experience of the trauma, right? Is that when majority of Israeli Jews look at Palestinians, they think about the most traumatic elements of that society for them, right? They think of the terrorists, they think of the antifadas, they think of the wars, they think of many, we can go on for a long time in Palestinians when they see Israeli Jews, they think of what you've just mentioned. - That is the West Bank, history of Salam 1948, yes. - And that's the very tempting path of telling that, continuing to tell that story as opposed to a story which I think needs to combine both, 'cause we have our trauma in both of these, both of them from right now and in the past. And I think we'll only be able to tell that story together through something like this. - But that's why what you're mentioning is it makes a very important element of free conciliation. So even when we talk about a political horizon and even if we talk about a solution, a solution cannot work without considering reconciliation between people. And the reconciliation will only begin once we start realizing how interconnected our identities are and how much we actually have to celebrate within this diversity, rather how much we actually need to be separated from one another. - Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I wanna move on to something a little bit different. These are gonna be some rapid fire questions. So let's jump straight into it. Is there a Palestinian identity beyond being anti-Israel? - Of course. - What is the most beautiful thing about Palestinian culture? - Dapka and food. - Is there a specific food? - Maklube would be my favorite and then Musachan. - Amazing. What is the hardest thing about being Palestinian right now? - It's difficult to show my identity in public. - What does Palestinian leadership get wrong? - The people's aspirations and connection to the people. - What does Israeli leadership get wrong? - Security is not achieved, but what they're doing right now. - Is coexistence with Israel as rarely as possible? - Of course. - A million percent. - What do you want Israeli Jews to understand about Palestinian identity that they don't know? - That we have so much in common. We both love life. We both love to go to the beach. If Palestinians have accessibility to that, we both love loud music. We both love to celebrate life. We have so much more in common than what we think we do. - We both love a half-la. - Yes. - What do Palestinians misunderstand about Israeli Jews? - That all Israeli Jews are the same, in a sense that they all want to get rid of us. - If you could change one thing about how Palestinians present themselves to the world, what would it be? - To get out of victimhood and to show everything else that we can offer as victorious, not as victims. In 100 years, what do you want Palestinian identity to be? - I'd like to preserve everything that we grew up with, with the history, with the culture, with the stories, with the connection to the land, and at the same time being able to be proudly standing up and say we have Israeli neighbors next to us and we live together. - So for young Palestinian, 15, 16 years old, asked you right now, what does it mean to be Palestinian? What would you tell them? - Actually, my son asks me that question. It's one of the most difficult questions. I always like to tell him about look at our dapka, look at our food, look at our history, look at how much we're connected to the land, the farms, the high-tech, the entrepreneur that would entrepreneurship that we bring, and all the long way of struggle towards independence. This is what makes you who you are, and it's really important for a 15 or 16-year-old to understand all of this and be proud of this identity. - What if he says, "Yuma, how can I focus on all these things "when I'm worried about getting beat up at a checkpoint "or somebody cursing at me, how do you prevent him "from going into that pathward of resentment and hatred?" - It's one of the most difficult things that I face on a daily basis. And I think one of the things that I keep telling him is as a peace builder myself, I keep bringing this stories of the things that I do, the encounters that I have, and I encourage him to take these encounters, and I always encourage him to use his voice to raise up who he is, and what his concerns are, and what his hopes and aspirations for the future is. It's difficult, nothing is guaranteed, but I'm trying the best that I can. - Naveen Sandooka, thank you for coming on the show. - Thank you so much for having me, thank you. (upbeat music) - I came into these conversations with a question that I know can sound offensive. Is Palestinian identity more than opposition to Israel? I'm not asking because I want to dismiss Palestinian identity. I ask it because this is one of the questions many Israelis and Jews carry around. They look at Palestinian symbols, the Qafiya, the key, the maps, the slogans, and they see rejection. They see violence. They see a people whose national story seems to begin and end with the undoing of Israeli identity. And then I sat down with Naveen and Ziyad. When Naveen and Ziyad spoke about Palestinian identity, they spoke about embroidery, food, villages, family stories, shrines, dialects, debka, fruit from the hills around Jerusalem, the memory of a grandmother's home, a key still held by a family that lost its house, a father saying, "This is my home and I'm not leaving." That's important because Palestinian identity is real. It is rooted, it is beautiful, and for many Palestinians, it carries deep pain. Naveen's version of Palestinian identity was expansive. Land, culture, memory, struggle, dignity, and the possibility of a life beyond endless conflict. Of a future where Palestinians can stand proudly in their own identity while living in harmony with Israeli neighbors. Ziyad spoke from somewhere raw. He tried, genuinely tried, to speak about Palestinian culture outside of the conflict. The food, the embroidery, but he couldn't hold it there for long. The shadow of a military occupation, a feeling like a guest in your own home kept pulling him back. And I have to be honest, that pain is not something I can dismiss. I can disagree with parts of the Palestinian narrative. I can push back where Israeli food or music is treated as if it is all stolen, because so many Israeli Jews came from Arab and Muslim societies and brought those cultural memories and artifacts with them. I can reject any version of Palestinian identity that denies Jewish history, Jewish peoplehood, or Jewish self-determination in this land. But none of that allows me to pretend Palestinian identity is fake. The Palestinian peace activist and political leader, Samadis Angelawi, who was a previous guest on the show, puts it so well. I often hear from Israelis, there has never been a Palestinian people. There were a made-up nation. Honestly, I don't understand it at all. Every nation is a made-up nation. Every national identity came into existence at some point. Whatever we were called in the past, we have now declared ourselves the Palestinian people. And we have that right. Every group of people has the right to a national identity. It's not for others to affirm it. It's irrelevant what we were called at various points in our history, or what regime we fell under. Today we are the Palestinians. Today we are the same people who have lived here for generations. Palestinian identity is very real. But it's also not simple. It's both older and newer than people want to admit. It's ancient in its connection to land, family, language, village, memory, and 11-teen life. It's modern in the way nationalisms modern, in the symbols, flags, and political vocabulary that formed in the last century. That should not scandalize anyone. Jewish identity has ancient layers and modern layers too. Israeli identity certainly does. Most national identities do. The danger begins when one people uses the modern parts of what the others identity to say you are invented, so you don't matter. You do not belong. Your story is just a weapon against mine. That move is poison. And it happens in both directions. Some Jews look at Palestinians and say your identity exists only to oppose us. Some Palestinians look at Zionism and say your identity exists only to replace us. Once you say that, the conclusion almost writes itself. If the other people's identity is fake, then their pain is exaggerated. Their claim is illegitimate. Their aspirations can be dismissed. That is how identity becomes a weapon. The most powerful moment for me came from Ziyad. He told me that his daughter came home after frightening encounter with Israeli soldiers and police and said, "I hate Jews." She was 11 years old, and he told her he never wanted to hear those words from her again. That moved me deeply. Because here is a Palestinian father with every reason to be angry, every reason to pass that anger down, and in that moment he refused to let his daughter's fear become hatred of Jews. But I pushed him. I asked. She had said she hated Israelis. Would he have responded the same way? And he paused. And he said it depends. That pause matters. That it depends matters. Because what tells me is that for Ziyad, the Jewish people and the Israeli identity are not the same thing in his mind. He can separate Jews from the soldiers who frightened his daughter. But Israelis, that's harder. That distinction is something I understand on one level and find deeply unsettling on another. Because I am both. And because the majority of Israeli Jews are both. Because about half of global Jewry are both. And that gap between the Jew he can protect his daughter from hating, and the Israeli he finds harder to fully extend that same grace to, that gap is not resolved by this conversation. It is one of the things we will have to keep sitting with if we are ever going to find a way through this. And yet, I left these conversations with more hope than I expected. I left with hope because in Veen wants Palestinian identity to go beyond victimhood. She wants to show what it can build, create, and offer. I left with hope because Ziyad, whose family still carries the key to a lost home, can still imagine a future of equality, freedom, and coexistence with Israelis. I left with hope because both of them, in very different ways, are trying to keep Palestinian identity from being swallowed whole by the conflict. For Israelis and Jews, there's also a challenge here. We need to stop pretending that recognizing Palestinian identity weakens our own. It does not. Jewish history in this land is real. Palestinian history in this land is also real. These truths exist in tension with one another, but they're still true. Maybe the beginning of reconciliation is when both peoples can say something very simple, but also very hard. Your story does not cancel mine. And my story does not cancel yours. Borderlines with that semi is a production of Unpacked, part of Open Door Media. This episode is in honor of Yehuda Baha'u, murdered on October 7, 2023, at the Nova Festival. This musical legacy lives on. The show is sponsored by the Marcus Foundation. I'm your host, Yurmi Al-Danzig. Borderlines is produced by Paula Queskin, and our team includes Noam Sol Azul, Simon Apthul, Jenny Falco, Andrew Miller, Ari Shlach, and Rift Kistern. Thanks for joining us.