What does it feel like to believe in God? (classic)

Hello everyone. This is our final re-broadcast of a classic episode before we return in August with some new ones for you. This episode is not like the other classics we've heard. It's more of a conversation episode. I really, really love this one. It's one of the episodes we have gotten the most listener emails about and not just volume. Like some of the most deep, interesting reflections in our inbox from anything we publish. It was crazy because we almost did not make this episode. I was worried the question was honestly too big, but we put it to the test that we found to put our questions to, which is just, is this a real, deeply held question? And for me it really was. And I learned a lot from the person we asked it to and from the stories that the question all this had been. After these ads, what's it like to believe in God? When I was a kid, I believed in God. The Christian, big guy in the sky, God. My family wasn't hardcore about it, but we went to church on Sundays. When we kids resisted, we were bribed with donuts. I found Sunday school to be mainly confusing. I understood the concepts of God and Jesus, but I remember having a lot of questions about the Holy Ghost, this character who's backstory the teachers never seemed to want to fill in. But I believed in God. I prayed every night. I prayed for a long list of everyone I hoped God would protect. Really everyone I knew. My family, my friends, relatives, the souls of pets who had died. I couldn't fall asleep until I had prayed. Always the same prayer every night until I turned 15. When I was 15, something terrible happened to someone I loved. After that, I only prayed that this one person would be safe. A month later, the same terrible thing happened to them again. After that, I mostly stopped praying. At first, I think I was pretty angry, but the anger went away. And then when it was gone, it just felt easier for me to live in a world where everything didn't happen for a reason. A world where when someone I knew got hurt, I didn't have to look for a lesson in it, or imagine it as part of a plan. I kept getting older. I didn't think about God very much. But a couple years ago, I had a funny experience. I was in the desert with a friend. And I had this feeling I never had before. It lasted for about a minute. Just this sense, like a physical sense, that the world might just be a shadow of a different world. A place that was more real, or more true. It lasted for about one full minute. And then it passed. I did not rush off to start a new religion or join an old one. I took what had happened with a grain of salt. But I also didn't discard it. It just left me with new questions. I know I'm not allowed to do a podcast called Is God Real. But I did want to try to understand what faith feels like to the people who have it. That question has really been sticking with me. I think we'll probably ask it a lot in the future to different people of different faiths. But recently I found one person who would let me pester them about it. Do you want headphones or no headphones? I don't think I need headphones. I might do no headphones too sure. The aesthetic okay with you? I'm listening to tell me what you had for breakfast today for breakfast today. I had a smoked salmon avocado toast. This is Vika Krieger. How do I describe this person? We met recently. He leads a progressive Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley called Hokhmat Halav. I really enjoyed talking to him. I got the sense I could ask him a bunch of invasive questions about his faith that I could ask him about God. I was a kid who never smoked weed. We wanted to know what weed was like. These questions would not offend him. I invited him to search engine headquarters to ask one of those no questions too big. My plan today, the roadmap I'm imagining for this conversation, I want to talk about your early life. I want to ask you about what your relationship to faith has been like, how it's changed, how you were dragged kicking and screaming into rabidum. I want to see if I can get a sense of how it feels to believe as someone who doesn't really believe. I brought one of my favorite books on the topic. It's a book about how to describe God. Oh really? Yeah, so it's like, this is the title. That's great. Okay, so we're doing something impossible. Okay, so can you just tell me about your life before you decide to become a rabid, like even as a kid, did you believe in God? Well, so I grew up in Los Angeles primarily. I would say I definitely believed in a version of God as a kid for sure that sounds not too different from the version of God that you described growing up, even though I grew up Jewish. So I grew up Orthodox, which means on the very observant and very traditional end of the Jewish spectrum. My parents got married when they were very young, like 19 early 20s and divorced a year later. I was born in that one year period. My mom stayed in LA and my dad moved out and eventually landed in Israel. So my mom is what maybe you would just call regular Orthodox or like centrist Orthodox. And my dad is ultra Orthodox or you call like Haredi or Hasidic, where they had in the beard and the garb and all of that. So like Williamsburg Orthodox. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I mean, there's nuances, but you know lost on people. What are the nuances? Well, I think there's like different like the garb may look the same, but I think there's like different theologies around it within those communities, but subtle. And so I grew up primarily in LA. And when I was younger, I would go back and forth between that sort of LA Orthodox world and then the ultra Orthodox world with my dad. And so those were like the formative experiences of my childhood, particularly when it came to religion, but like my life was religion because I lived in this insular Orthodox community. So you're in Los Angeles, but it's like a very strict upbringing, like a strict religious upbringing. Yeah, like you know, only eat kosher food, which means that like you can only eat in restaurants that are like certified kosher. I don't think I knew a non Jewish person until I went to college. Oh wow. Like I, you know, kept strict Shabbat, which means for one day out of the week, no electricity, no money, no phones, no screens, no driving. So like, you know, borderline omniscience, I would say. And is it like, I want to say excuse my ignorance, but if I say that, I'm going to have to say so many times in this interview. So just as a blanket consideration, please excuse my ignorance. Like, you know, I said like Williamsburg Orthodox like in Brooklyn where I live, it's sort of this thing that people always found remarkable when they move here that Williamsburg Brooklyn, which has a reputation as being both like a hipster neighborhood, but also an expensive neighborhood. There's one portion of Williamsburg that is just like Orthodox Jewish and when you are driving, also, and you just like hit it and it's like a lot of people in the same community, living the same way. Was it like that in Los Angeles, where you're in like a distinct community, where everyone started following practices or is it more dispersed? I would say it's a little bit more dispersed, but there's a couple neighborhoods where you're like driving through Beverly Hills, your onro day, or drive, you're passing by Prada. And then you take a left turn on Topiko and then all of a sudden, all the storefronts are in Hebrew, all the women are walking around with wigs and long skirts. So it's got that Williamsburg-esque vibe, but it's a little bit less in your face. And I would say, and I would say this is probably pretty formative to who I am, is that people are like, oh my god, you grew up Orthodox. And I say, yeah, but I grew up LA Orthodox. And what does that mean? So I think there was like a little bit more permeability, right? Like in Williamsburg, you'd think like if a kid grew up in Williamsburg, it's like, oh, they've got this kind of like super austere Orthodox upbringing, but you got hipsters, you got clubs and coffee shops, you'd think that some of that would permeate in. But in Williamsburg and other of these like ultra Orthodox neighborhoods in New York, the gates are pretty high. Like you don't really get much of that culture in. Whereas where I grew up, like, I definitely, you know, by the time I got to high school, I would go out to like, punk shows on Hollywood Boulevard. I would go to raves out in like the deserts around LA. I would go surfing on weekends with my friends. And so none of that would happen if I grew up in Williamsburg. And when you're experiencing punk shows and raves, particularly like, was that okay or was it like you're sort of like stepping out? And when it comes to Orthodox Judaism, maybe religion more broadly, there's sort of two pieces. There's like the letter of the law. Like what are you allowed to do? What do you not allow to do? And then there's like the cultural pieces of like what is culturally acceptable and culturally layered on top of it. And so there's nothing wrong with going to a punk show according to the laws of Orthodox Judaism, but it may be frowned upon from like a culturally conservative perspective. And I think in LA, you know, there's still a lot of that judginess, but there's a little bit more of an acceptance of, okay, like you can sort of play in both worlds. So like I would go to a punk show. I'd always keep my head covered. Probably didn't wear a Yamaha to a punk show, but like wear a baseball hat or a beanie or something like that. Or like I wouldn't eat anything there because the food there was in kosher or if I was out all night partying at a rave, like I would make sure to be back in time for sunrise so that I could pray the like morning prayers. - And did you feel like you were moving between worlds to this thing, Shilko, he said to you? - I think that I definitely had a little bit of a sense of subversion. Like oh look at me, I'm a badass, I'm like doing these things. But I also, I don't know, I can't quite put my finger on why, but I felt a sense of integration. I was just like okay, like there's no paradox here between like doing this, you know, going to a rave and being an orthodox Jew and I kind of reveled in my ability to move between those worlds and not feel attention. - I realized a question I meant to ask you really was like, and you've answered it, but was, did you feel ashamed? And it sounds like you didn't feel ashamed. It felt like exciting or normal or correct. I mean, I think that, I mean, I definitely was like a type A over a t-ver in high school. And I think that part of my ability to move between those worlds is like, I was like really hardcore on the Jewish front, right? And so I was like super into everything. I was like in the top Talmud class, like studying the best freaking ancient aeromac legal code, you know, you can imagine. I was like, valid Victorian of my school and like all of that. And I was like bleached hair and baggy janko jeans and like, you know, as one does in the 90s. - Yes. - And like, I think there were people who system would overload at the contradictions and like would look at me and be like, I can't fit this guy in a box and I was just kind of like, whatever, like I like doing all these things and there's nothing mutually exclusive. And I think there's something also interesting about like growing up orthodox in that I, you know, I learned fluent Hebrew from the time I was a kid. I learned aeromac and I was studying the text, the Torah, the all the legal codes from a young age in a way that like, I had direct access to them. So like I didn't need a gatekeeper. So like someone could be like, you're not gonna do that. And I'll be like, show me where it says that in the text, right? Or I'm gonna open up the Talmud and like find the place where it talks about this and be like, well, doesn't say that in here, right? And so I think that for a lot of people who don't have that direct access, they need it mediated through a gatekeeper. And generally those gatekeepers have a culturally conservative agenda. And so like, oh no, you're not allowed to do that. And I'm like, well, doesn't say it in there. So I'm gonna do it. Right. So there's kind of, there's this quote, I think is Audrey Lorde who said, you can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools. I'm gonna be really embarrassed if it's not Audrey. I think that's right. And like I kind of was like, well, like, I guess maybe sometimes you can. (laughing) Like I had the tools, the master's gave me the tools to dismantle the house. And so, okay, so at this point you're like, you're able to live in different worlds. And the God that you're imagining is the sort of like, classic God, like God in the sky. - Watch the old man on a throne in the sky, long beard, kind of wagging his finger at you, recording all of your good and bad deeds in a book and you're praying to this person just like you were sharing. And so yeah, that was definitely the God that I believed in as a kid. And what was your relationship like to that God? - You know, it's funny because people assume that if you're orthodox or if you go up really religious, you have very close relationship with God. And that was not my experience growing up because there was so many rules about what it meant to be an observant Jew, right? In terms of everything about what you eat. Literally how you get out of bed, which shoe you put on first, first it's the right foot and then it's the left foot. And there's like all these things, well, this is like the Jewish version of it. And now as an adult, I can see how much of it is based in post holocaust trauma OCD. I remember always growing up being like, this feels like OCD. And now I'm just like, oh yeah, that's like not a coincidence. (laughing) Like when people spend so much of their life having their agency taken away from them and like being abused and traumatized, the way they deal with that is by creating these incredibly specific rituals for every aspect of your life. You've got to wake up and before you do anything, you have to wash your hands and there's a certain way that you do it. Two scoops on the left, two scoops on the right. And then there's a prayer that you say before you do anything and then which, so sure to sleep do you put on first, which pant leg do you put on first. And so like, and it's for every part of your day, like literally every step you're taking, you're thinking about, okay, what's the Jewishly prescribed way of doing this? And it's almost like there's no room for God. And like yes, in theory, you're doing all these things because you think that that's what God commanded you to do and that's what's gonna make God happy. But you almost forget about that 'cause like you're just so focused on all the rules that you're keeping. And so my life was deeply infused with Judaism and like every moment of my day was infused with Judaism, but God was like weirdly absent, except for this like hovering background figure that's like keeping it tallie of, did I put the right foot off the bed when I woke up in the morning. And so when you said college is when you start to kind of split somewhat from the exact rituals in place of your childhood. You know, I think it was like a slow progression. Like I'd say to this day, I'm still quite traditionally observant. And a lot of the rituals that I kept back then, I still keep today. For example, like I keep a pretty strict Shabbat from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Like I don't use my phone, I don't use the internet, I don't drive, I don't use electricity, I don't use money. So I do a lot of things from when I was growing up, but the intentionality behind it is much different and like the relationship of that act to God is very different. And definitely going to college was a big part of that. I mean, I grew up in this insular world. Then there's like sort of tradition in my community that after you go to high school, you go spend a gap year in Israel studying in the Ashiva, Jewish study, school, institution, seminary. And so I went to Israel for a year and I just literally from like 7, 30 in the morning to like 10 o'clock a night, I just studied Talmud all day long, which is like obscure Jewish air make legal codes. - I can't imagine studying anything that much. - It was when I started drinking coffee for the first time for sure. But like, I mean, it does boggle my mind when I look back to being like, holy shit, how did I spend so many hours a day studying with these, you know, first century, second, third century rabbis were saying about your ox, gourd, my ox, and poof, pays, who what under what conditions? I was like, it's like an 18 year old son. - And what were you getting out of like as 18 year old you, like what is happening in your mind while you're doing that? - I think part of it was like, it was just what was done in my community. It is very intellectually stimulating. - Right. - Cal home. - This is like for the, we all have those friends that like graduated college and were so excited to go to law school. - Yeah. - Because they wanted to study torts, you know, and they, those big, I don't even know what they're called, but those like weird leather bound books that have like all the legal theories in them. Like, that's probably the closest parallel. Or you basically, the Talmud is basically a transcription of esoteric debates and arguments between rabbis. And when a rabbi will put forward a position and another will argue it, and they're basically using the Torah as like a proof test. They're like, well, I think the Torah says this. It's like, no, I didn't interpret the Torah this way. And so there's something kind of intellectually satisfying about like deconstructing an argument, following a debate, and also doing it in ancient Aramaic in a book that has no punctuation. And so like, there's something cool, almost about like decoding these texts. That makes sense. So it's like, it's very intellectually stimulating. And it's like the Netflix algorithm of experiences would be like four fans of debate club and arguing. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's exactly right. But I will say that for me, and I don't want to judge other people, but like for me, there was exactly zero spiritual moment in that task. But like this idea of like spiritual fulfillment, like that wasn't really part of my vocabulary growing up. I mean, it's probably not part of most teenagers' vocabulary, but this idea that like religion would be like nourishing in some way, that wasn't why we did it. - Right. - Right. And so going to college, like leaving my world, all of a sudden being surrounded by like other kinds of Judaism, more like mystical versions of Judaism, more embodied forms of Judaism. I was just kind of like, huh, okay, like that is interesting to me. And like being able to pause and ask questions of like, why are we doing this? And who are we doing this for? And like definitely the questioning started then and continued well into my 20s. - And so then what is that period of questioning? I was like, yeah, I mean college again was like this interesting time. I went to Yale, which was like a total mind fuck for me. Being this cloistered Orthodox Jewish boy who went to only Orthodox Jewish schools, basically only knew Orthodox Jewish people all of a sudden to a college campus where I was like, (laughing) like, you know, and in my community, high brow secular reading was People Magazine. People didn't have like the New Yorker. Oh hell no, I never heard of the New Yorker until I went to college. - But that's so, I mean just to say, like whatever different transmissions reach different people and places and meet different things, but why People Magazine? Which stars just like us. (laughing) - That was my favorite part of People Magazine. (laughing) - So I'm like the high brow families had news week. - Okay. - But yeah, it was just like not a very intellectual milieu and so like anything that I learned was like books that I had read on my own and then I went to college and it was so embarrassing because there were so many words that I had never heard said out loud. And so like I'd only read them. And I'd be in seminars with kids who went to like, Exeter and Tote and you know, all these like fancy prep schools. And I would like mispronounce words all the time. And people would always laugh at me. But I always feel like just to defend people that mispronounce words, I'm always like, all that means is that you read a lot. You know what I mean? But I think there's like something about like growing up in a cultural milieu where like people have intellectual conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I thought the word penicilla and penache were the same word. I can imagine that getting embarrassed at Yale. Yeah, and so but you know, it was definitely like my intellectual horizons were like totally broadened. But like I still prayed three times a day. I still studied Talmud with a friend like two hours a day. I still kept Shabbat and kosher. So like I had this sort of cultural mind blowing moment. But then I also like kind of kept doing my thing. Yeah. And it didn't again. It was like you were able, I'm so used to hearing stories where the a very familiar arc of a very familiar story for me is person grows up and cloistered intense religious community. And then you know, it's almost like every culture loves a conversion story into itself. And so like as a progressive intellectual type, we love the story of like I was very religious, but then I read the New Yorker and I follow a lot of blah. But your story, the way you tell it is, I was very religious. I found more experiences. I found more things to read and think about. But I was able to bring with me where I came from in a way that didn't feel painful or confusing. Yeah. And like maybe partially attributed to my upbringing in LA where there wasn't this like strict binary of like either you're this way or you're this way. But it was the sense of like if these practices are meaningful, you can keep doing them and do other things that don't conflict with those practices. Right. But have you ever heard of the concept called the second naivete? No. This like French philosopher Paul Riker, he kind of like traces a version of that arc that you just traced, but it's got a slightly different twist to it, which is like the first naivete is like you grow up and you learn about the God in the sky and you pray to this God to do good things for you, do do do do do. And then there's like a second phase, which is like it all comes crashing down and you have this realization or you learn like holy shit. Like all this is bullshit. Religion is constructed by all these people with nefarious agendas like screw this. Then he has this thing called the second naivete, which is like okay, like yes, religion is invented by people. Like yes, there is like no old man in the sky and there's still value in a lot of this stuff, right? I'm gonna like choose to believe a lot of this stuff in a way that like is more suited to a grown up sensibility of like what exists and what doesn't exist. But I'm not gonna throw the baby out with the bath water. Like there's like a way that you can opt in to that world that sort of meets you post-crash. - Right, like a way to not become one of those like internet atheists that's like constantly being like, "Oh, the flying spaghetti monster or whatever." Like they can't imagine that the human desire for belief in something larger or a spiritual existence is anything but like a dumb trick played on dumb people by the people who admit to like dumb. There might be something valuable or real about that impulse, even if you don't sign on to whatever you grew up with. - Totally. And like a lot of my 20s and 30s was about like updating my conception of God and then looking back on my life and the practices and the way I kind of live my life as an observant do and saying, okay, like which of these still resonate, which of these don't resonate and like what aligns with this conception and actually like a lot of it does align. It's funny as you talk about this stuff, one of the things that makes me realize is that in my existence as like the identity categories I belong to or don't belong to or like foot in between, I'll have days where I don't know, like in the last few years I feel like I spend not a lot of time but some amount of time being like progressive, liberal, like left, whatever. I'm like, where do I fit in here? Where don't I fit in here? Like how much does it matter to know where I fit in here? Like how much is the tribal question versus an intellectual and versus values one? You've had to do that sort of internal maneuvering with faith. Totally, yeah. There's a famous rabbi who said like the people I socialize with I can't pray with and the people I pray with I can't socialize with. Any relate to that? Yeah, and I think that definitely relate to that. And I think that that's like to the extent that I quote unquote left orthodoxy though I like to pretend that I haven't really left but to the extent that I've left it was actually more for like social reasons and that like the people in those communities tended to be more socially conservative and that's politically conservative and just like not into the kind of stuff that I was into and tended not to be like particularly interested in the world, particularly interested things beyond their sort of parochial bubble that they lived in. And then like I'd go hang out with like my cool friends who were like into all the things I was into but they're just like, oh religion, like that's weird. Like why are you keeping Shabbat? God, ugh. Yeah. And so I'd say that like that tension in my 20s is what kind of led me down into this spiritual leadership route because I was just like, I mean, there were still long ways to go until I got there but it was a sense of like, why don't fit in here? I don't fit in there. I guess I kind of got to create for myself what I want. (soft music) Coming up after the break before Zveka becomes ordained as a rabbi. We chart how being both spiritual and unusual can lead someone to perhaps the strangest professional path I've ever heard of person describe that's after some ads. (soft music) Hello search engine listeners. I am here to tell you about a podcast I love. It's called This American Life. It's hosted by Ira Glass and his team of some of the best producers in audio. Each week they choose a theme and bring you a variety of stories on that theme. Stories that are funny, moving, big, small, but above all true. I literally used to burn the CDRs of This American Life and then on my 14 hour drives from Philadelphia to Montreal and back, I would just listen to 14 hours of the show back to back to back to back. I think I've listened to more of This American Life than I've listened to almost any other piece of media. It's where I learn to love audio. It's where I learn to do the thing that I do. It's also such a beloved show that it feels a little bit like recommending people try summer vacation. But I'm doing it anyway because this show competes with summer vacation. Please check it out. If you're a search engine listener who somehow has not heard This American Life, I'm very happy to be the bearer of good news. Please go listen and tell them we sent you. (upbeat music) I don't even know how to handle this in the context of an interview. One of the things I have to do is take complicated lives and simplify them in a way that is not untrue but is legible and you've had such an interesting life path that I'm not. Can you give me what is your quickest dirtiest pencil sketch of your professional life from college to rabbi? I'd say probably like the headline is ADHD. (laughing) But okay, the quickest dirtiest sketch is graduate college, become a journalist, work in Newsweek in New York because I spoke Arabic. They sent me to the Middle East. I've become their Middle East correspondent, lived in Egypt and Lebanon for a couple years, moved to DC for the first time, worked at the New Republic for a couple years, worked at the Atlantic for a couple years, worked as a writer, editor, all sorts of different things, worked at a Middle East, think tank, worked in the Defense Department, worked at the State Department, and then John Kerry who was a Secretary of State at the time was like, "Hey, all this stuff is happening in Silicon Valley and it's really affecting policy and we don't have anyone whose job it is to build relationships with Silicon Valley and I was running the Innovation Lab at the time at the State Department." And they're like, "Speak up, do you want to go be our ambassador to Silicon Valley?" And I was like, "Yeah, why not?" - And so, yeah, so I moved to California and did that for a little while, then Trump got elected and I was like, "Fuck this, working for Trump." And so I taught at Stanford. So I studied design as an undergrad. So I went back and I taught in the design school at Stanford and then I got hired by the World Economic Forum, like the Davos people to set up a hub for them in the Bay Area focused on like ethical tech, responsible tech. So I did that for a couple years and then Facebook hired me to be their first ever head of ethics director of responsible innovation. - What was that one like? - You know, it's definitely the job tale that gets the most snickers. (laughing) And when they reached out to me, like when the recruiter first reached out to me, he referred to the job as Chief Ethics Officer at Facebook and I just, and I burst out laughing. And I was like, "This sounds like an onion article." But you know, eventually what, what can I mean? I spent a lot of time like talking to like all the people who I'd be working with and I was like, "Okay, like this actually sounds like it's legit." But I love the job. Despite all the sort of snickers of you, I didn't like, they were like, "Oh, you did a really good job." (laughing) And I was like, "Yeah, okay, fair." You know, like I didn't totally transform the business model there and like zero out any harm that was being caused in the product. I built a 40 person team there. And we reviewed hundreds of products before they were released, actually pretty early in the product development process. And we were able to figure out or anticipate how might these products harm people. And I found that engineers and the product managers to be quite well-meaning in being like, "Oh wow, we hadn't thought about this, right? It's not their job to think about," or it's not their mindset to think about, it like, you don't wake up every morning being like, "How is this thing that I'm working on going to harm people?" - Yeah. - So having a team that is their job, it actually made it a lot easier. And so like you, again, forgive me for the same question, but like you're in a job that involves thinking through ethics and morality, the part of you that you would consult when you're trying to solve a problem there, was it just like you yourself, were you thinking about, you know, telemetric disputes about oxcoring in aeromag for many centuries ago, like how did your faith and your job doing moral reasoning for a tech company, were they involved with each other? - Yeah, I was just like, "Walk into a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg, like open my Talmud." And he was like, "Mark, it says it right here in the Talmud, like you gotta change the new speed algorithm." No, I mean, it's interesting because I think actually, like when they recruited me, I'm just like, first of all, I just wanna let you guys know that I'm not a very ethical person. We're like, "That's okay." (laughing) Even better, but I'm not like a conceptual ethicist. I have no professional background in ethics, right? I don't come with like frameworks for like ethical reasoning and things like that. But basically, like the first thing that I really tried to impart to people was like, number one, like it's generally not right versus wrong. Like generally, it's not like, you know, either we launch this product and it brings us lots of revenue and more clicks, but in my Gaza genocide in Myanmar, you know, like it's not like those types of trade-offs. It's more like, "Hey, like we could do end-to-end encryption for all of our messaging, which is great for privacy." And everybody's like really being the drum on privacy. But that means we don't have access to any of the content in those messages and there might be proliferation of all human trafficking and child pornography and terrorist extremist groups. So it's like, that's a trade-off, like optimized for privacy or optimized for safety. - Yeah. - And like, being able to surface that and surfrain in a way where it's like, what are we going to optimize for? And so it wasn't really my job to tell people what the right answer was, even though most people wanted me to just tell them, they're like, what should we do? And I'm just like, well, like let's actually frame up what the trade-offs are and help you make an intentional decision about what you're going to prioritize. - But it's funny, I mean, that does sort of sound like, I have not often sought spiritual guidance in my life. I'm not trying to say you were a spiritual leader at Facebook, although that's like a great movie idea. But more like, you were doing what I've found people do, which is like they rather be like, here's what you should do. They'll say, here's what you might consider. - Well, it's interesting because of course I'd be like, very careful not to bring religion into the room with, you know, like I'm not gonna like, proselytize people, you know, but like, I think there was this sense that it was spiritual work. And like people would often like jokingly call me like, Facebook rabbi, you know, they would just be like, hey rabbi, I need some advice, you know, on this stuff. And so, and I do think there is like a link between how I practice now as a rabbi and how I practiced like the responsible innovation work I did at Facebook, which is like, even now, like in a spiritual leadership role, people come to me all the time and they're like, what should I do? You know, my husband's having dementia, and I want to put him in a nursing home because I still want to live my life. Like, what should I do? And I'm like, it's not my job actually to tell you what the right thing to do is. It's like, I can help you frame up what values are at play here. - Yeah. - I will walk beside you and give you some tools, give you the confidence to trust your own moral compass, but I'm not gonna like loan you my moral compass. - Yeah. - But people want that. - Oh, totally. Yeah, like, and especially engineers. (laughing) Just like, dude, like we got, we got lines of code to write. Yes or no, what should we do? - Did you ever just give them a straight? Yes or no? - No. But I think maybe it's also just something that is, a part of my constitution and that like, I just grew up around so many rabbis who just constantly told people what to do. That I'm just like, I'm not, it's not my jam. Like, I'm not here to tell people what to do. - Okay, so Facebook ethicists, yeah. Then what happens? So like, I had these two, I like praying with these people. I like to socializing with these people, but like, I feel like there's nowhere where I can like, pray and be spiritual with the people who I actually like. So I just like started like doing a lot of my own, like pop up stuff, you know, like putting together, like prayer services, like in my living room, in my backyard, just kinda like experimenting. And I'm like, I grew up Orthodox. I know how to do this shit, you know? Like, it's funny, it's also you're taking the ethos of, DIY scenes like punk and rapes. You're like, we can just throw a show. We need to do it. - Totally. Totally. And like a lot of it, like, because I also, I spent a lot of my time in my 20s. I took like a little detour. I never like left Judaism. But like meditation and mindfulness became really important to me, because as I mentioned, I have very severe ADHD. It's not just like my career is ADHD. I have very severe ADHD. And like the only, and like medication did not work for me. It gave me like horrendous headaches. And so the only thing that really worked for me was meditation. And so I got like really into meditation in my 20s. And like mindfulness was really important to me. And like embodiment became really important for me. I know this kind of like a fun story. - I'm gonna say embodiment. - Yeah, it's kind of like a new age phrase. I live in Berkeley, so I don't really trust me. Yeah, I got to translate like some of the lexicon. But like, I don't know, I'm guessing you can relate to this. But like I spent a lot of time in my brain. A lot of time like thinking and mulling things over and like intellectually is like the way that I engage with the world mostly. And I just like at a certain point, realize that like that wasn't really serving me. And that like I needed, not that I should stop doing that, as if that's even possible. But I need to spend more time like in my body. Not just thinking all the time, but just experiencing and being and moving. And so meditation was really helpful for that. But I got really into dancing, which had always been part of my life starting with the like mosh pits in the punk scene. And then moving into like electronic music. All these embodiment things started just being a really important part of like my spiritual practice. But then I realized like, hey, I wanna like fuse all of this together. Like I've got the traditional parts of Judaism that still really speak to me, the ritual, the practices, the liturgy. And then I've got mindfulness and meditation. And I've got embodiment. Like how could we bring that all together? And part of it was also this learning journey that actually Judaism has. I mean, and by the way, so does Christianity and Islam. Like they have these ancient embodiment mindfulness traditions that have been sort of sanitized in a post enlightenment sort of rationalist, Western European world for Judaism and Christianity in particular. So I just kind of wanted to bring all these things together. And so I was like, ah, like I'm gonna like do stuff like this, you know. And in my living room and like, I think there are like a lot of people who like grow up more progressive. And they're kind of wary to do sort of radical things in a religious space because they're like, oh, well, that's not authentic. And that's not real or that's not okay. And I'm just like, dude, I grew up in the Orthodox world. I know the Emperor has no clothes like over there also, right? Orthodox Judaism is just as constructed as whatever we could construct as well. And so I think there is this conception, especially from people who grew up outside the Orthodox world that Moses got the Torah's Mount Sinai. And then like pass it down and like basically was living as an Orthodox Jew. Like Moses had those like side locks and a black cat and a beard, you know. And then like, Judaism had been practiced like that all the way down to Orthodox Jews today. And anything more progressive was like a deviation. But like, I guarantee you if Moses came alive today watching an Orthodox synagogue, he'd be like, what the fuck is this? What religion is this? This is not the religion I got at Sinai. A few years ago, Svika started attending rabbinical school. His time there coincided with a chapter of personal crisis in his life. A divorce burnt out. He took a break from full-time work to focus on parenting his child. And ultimately, he'd end up in the job he has now, leading services for a Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley. Basically, there was this community in Berkeley that was started 30 years ago. It's called Chumat Haleb, which means wisdom of the heart. And it started as a Jewish meditation center. Okay. And it was a bunch of what we call boojus. Boojus Jewish people? Yes. Okay. Which there's a size of a population of boojus of Jews who were just like, oh, Judaism's like really not spiritual enough for me. I'm going to go to Eastern religion, which was like even though like Judaism has like a pretty long lineage of meditation and mindfulness practice. It was never mainstream in Judaism. It's certainly not in modern history. But there are practices that you can go back to. And so there was this movement of folks who wanted to reclaim mindfulness and meditation and contemplative practices. And so they created this center. But it's been around for about 30 years. And it slowly evolved into like being more of like a traditional synagogue. Don't tell anyone where they have like prayer services and bar mitzvahs and weddings and like things like that. So you ended up in a place where even though you didn't want to be a rabbi in a synagogue, you're a spiritual leader who is now graduated rabbinical school in a spiritual community that has synagogue like tendencies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Synagogue like a Jason's. But you feel like you have a practice that fits with your own contradictions or things that maybe don't feel like contradictions anymore, but perhaps one's dead. Well, yes. And like what I promised myself when I went to rabbinical school but even more so when I took on this job, I promised. I must myself that I would not have a rabbi persona, that I would not have like my rabbi persona and my like friend persona or like private persona. I know so many people who are in spiritual leadership who live sort of these double lives. - Yeah. - I was like, I don't wanna do that, and I don't have the energy for that. And like, I don't think it's good for people. Like I don't think it's good for the people in the community and it's not good for me. So I was just like, I'm just gonna be myself, warts and all. And like, if anything, like I would like to be a role model for people to be like, hey, look, that guy who's up there on the stage, like giving the sermon, like look how flawed he is, and he's up there on the stage, like being a spiritual leader. That means he's like valuable and worthy as a person. And so if he can be up there doing that, like I can also be lovable because of all my flaws and all the ways in which I am fall short and I'm still working in progress and have not figured things out at all. But isn't it strange? I mean, look, I'm on the side of flawed people, honestly, uncertainty. But even to me, it's surprising that people often go to spiritual places for answers. When people are showing up with questions and you're like, the answer is I don't know. It's not just that I don't know. It's that like, it is okay to have those questions. You don't actually need the answer to that question. It is okay to be living in this place of uncertainty and confusion and not knowing. And I wanna like validate you for that. And like that is actually I think often more powerful than giving people the answers. You're saying that a question can be as valuable as an answer? Yeah. And like not knowing. Like I mean, so much of my personal practice has been releasing the expectation of knowing. And it's just like, oh, like you're confused. That means you're right. Right. Certainties actually the wrong place to be. And like, listen, I'm exaggerating a little bit. There is Jewish wisdom out there on a lot of questions. And I do have access to a lot of that wisdom because of the like decades I spend studying all these ancient texts. And so I do try to sprinkle in things from the texts, but I will say like there is a lot of Jewish wisdom about not knowing and mystery and surrendering control. I was reading your sermons. I struck by a couple of things. I'm so excited to hear what you have to say because like generally I'm like preaching to the converted. I like the converted. Yeah. And so I'm so curious like, 'cause I don't write them in my, with like people who are like wouldn't be kind of like a captive audience and so I'm so curious what comes out. Well, the first thing, and I was like, perhaps this is just my boundless narcissism, but I was surprised reading some of what you'd written because I thought, oh, part of the job you're doing is less far away from the job that I try to do than I thought, where it's like, you're telling stories. You're choosing stories that already exist. You're trying to contextualize the experiences people are having and give them something that might help them make meaning out of it. Like there was a sermon where you were talking about. It was as simple as, hey, like everyone's going over the holidays. People are going to have difficult conversations with family members. You were relating an experience you'd had where you'd like made comments that were like about Israel Palazine that were sympathetic Palestinians and you had like more hardcore like pro-Israel people who had said "errful things to you." And I thought like, oh, this is a kind of sense-making and meaning-making that I understand. And that surprised me. I mean, that is like when people ask me what is the role of being a rabbi, I'm not just saying this because you said it. Like the number one answer I say is meaning-making. Like it is helping people make meaning. It's like helping them as they're navigating their lives with a certain level of unconsciousness. It's like helping them pause and be like, how do I make something that feels mundane, that feels meaningful? And it can be through a teaching, it can be through a prayer experience, it can be through rituals, totally meaning-making is my job. But then there was another type of sermon and this is where I was like, oh, religion requires a level of familiarity with texts that I don't have where it would just be about stories from the past, stories from scripture. That's the part that I can never, it always feels impenetrailed to me. It always feels like a TV show that is on, it's like 15,000th season. And everybody's like, oh, season one, this thing happened. And everybody says it means this, but I think it means this. And like I understand the pleasures of textual analysis. And I understand the pleasures of looking at a story and trying to see it differently. But that was the part where I thought like, oh, this is just a culture that's not my own. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting how much I take for granted, people's familiarity with just the general contours of the Torah or the Bible. Just the other day I was just like, oh, that's going to the story of the binding of Isaac. And someone's like, what's that? I'm like, you don't know the story where Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his only child. And they were like, no, I've never heard that story before. I'm like, right. I live in this little bubble. Of course, the binding of Isaac. But-- Well, and do you-- OK, the binding of Isaac, which is a story that, as you start to describe it, I do know that story. When you're making a decision in your life or confronting something confusing or painful that's happened, or you like, oh, the binding of Isaac, does it? Right. I mean, I think that-- I don't know if this is the question behind your question. But it's the question that I'm hearing is, why am I returning to the Torah as this book of wisdom? Right? And the traditional answer to that question is the Torah was written by God. And so if you want to-- and like, kind of the way it's often talked about in Jewish tradition is it's like a blueprint for the world and a sort of instruction manual for how to live your life. And there are parts of the Torah that are very much instructions like, eat this, donate this, wear this, don't wear this, so that stuff's kind of clear, if you believe in it. But then there's lots of stories. It's like the binding of Isaac or like, back to the story or whatever. And it's like, well, what are those in there? At the very least, these are stories that have been passed down from generation to generation. And they are like in the DNA of anyone who's in the world of Western civilization and including Christianity and Islam. And so first of all, the fact that they have been passed down, there's this buzzword these days of ancestral wisdom. And it's just like, yeah, this book has been around for a really long time. So even if you don't believe God wrote it, there's something there. So I think it's worth exploring. And then even if you don't think that it's inherently valuable, it has shaped our society that you can't disagree with. And so looking back at it with a critical eye and being like, what is here? What is this text and what wisdom can be mined from it? It feels like a worthwhile endeavor. Yeah. It's funny. I had a moment in my life where things were more challenging than usual. And it was the only time where I found that when I read or thought about stories from the Bible I grew up with as a kid, I found myself more attracted to them. And it wasn't because I felt more faith or less faith. I think it was the feeling of people in the past lived lives that were harder to make meaning out of because death was everywhere and things were more senseless. And the stories that those people had used to survive then might be more valuable because I don't know, making sense of modernity can feel hard, but it's not hard like plague is hard. Totally, totally. Yeah. And I think that-- first of all, I think that's an important context for when that book was written. But I also think the core tension of being a quote-unquote religious person is like the God that is portrayed in these religious texts is like not a very appealing God. Yeah. It's just kind of like you have a God who gets angry. You have a God who gets jealous. You have a God who feels like kind of petty actually in the Torah. And you're just like, how is this supposed to be the bedrock of a faith? This is God that's actually such an unappealing character. It's like going to see a play where the main character is really unappealing. It's just like, you know, like this is kind of how I feel about white lotus. I kind of hate that show. I'm just like, there's no appealing character in this old show. So like the Torah is kind of like white lotus in that way. But it's also the text that you have to use. Right. Well, the way that I navigate that is that the God of the Torah is not God. The God of the Torah is a character. It's a God character that was like created by humans. But it's not God. And I would say that there's an inherent contradiction. And I'll say in Judaism, it may be true in other religions. I'm just less of an expert in other religions. That like Judaism has these sort of two paradoxical sort of truths, which is that like we have the God of the Torah that is very much a human like figure that has feelings and does things. But then there's like, it's very clear in the Jewish tradition, the Jewish law, whatever, that like you are not allowed to personify God. You are not allowed to anthropomorphize God. Like God is not a person. God is not a being. God is like not separate from us in any way. And so it's this paradox of like, wait, okay, like this resonates. Like I think for a lot of modern people, this idea that like God is not like a person or a sentient being in any way. It's like, okay, that can kind of square that with the world as I see it. But then like what the fuck is like this very human like God in the Torah or the Bible or in the Quran or whatever, right? And the only way to really square that circle is like, that is actually like a God projection. That is actually like a human creation of God. That is not God. Right. It's a God character. Right. It's like we've made something in our image rather than something making us in its image. Right. You know, and it's like a useful jumping off point to have a conversation about God. But it's not, that is not God because you can't, that God does not have human form. So like how can you talk about God in that way? Coming up after one more short break, we get to the question that brought us here today. Okay, what does it actually feel like to leave in God, at least for this one person? That's after some ads for companies. [Music] So, what is it like for you to just live everyday life with a belief in God? Like, how are you having a different experience than me? So, I was joking with you before that. It is this book that I love that talks about the challenge of like explaining the experience of God and it's called Catching Water in a Net. Yeah. Which is like, it's so hard to talk about. So, I'm going to try to talk about it. I appreciate it. And so, the first thing I want to say is like, I don't spend all day every day thinking about God. Okay. Right? And in the Jewish sort of spiritual tradition, like, that's okay. There is this practice called Deve Kut, which literally means like, Cleaving or Connecting. And it's like, we always want to be deepening our awareness and our connection to God. Like, that's something that you drop in and out of. Right? Probably the best analogy is like, mindfulness. Right? Like, yes, you could be like a Buddha on a mountain top somewhere and just be fully mindful 24/7. But actually, like, for most people, it's like, I strive to have moments of mindfulness in my life. And those moments kind of inform the rest of my life, but I'm not just like sitting in lotus position all day. Right? But sometimes you are, sometimes you are in this analogy. Sometimes where you do feel like you are getting a clear connection or a clear connection. And so to answer this question, I kind of have to tell you what I think God is. That's fine. I'm going to come out on the closet and tell you what I think God is. So, like, in Jewish spiritual tradition, God is, and it's going to be so hard to say things that don't sound like completely woo and sort of out there. So you have blanket permission to be woo. So, in Jewish tradition, the shortest way to sum it up is like, God is oneness. That like, everything that ever was is and will be the sum total of all of those things is God. Okay. So it's like an emulation of self as part of it. Absolutely. And like, and this concept of de v'coude of cleaving is like, when you feel totally subsumed in the oneness, like, that's the sort of goal, right? And like, God is an English word and a Christian word. It's not a Jewish word. And the word for God in the Jewish lineage is, it's a four-letter word that you can't pronounce. It's called the ineffable name. And it's like, some people clumsily pronounce it in English Yahweh. I don't know if you've heard that. I have a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Because those are the, it's the like, four letters. They're like all vowels and like, you can't really pronounce them. But like, first of all, there's something cool about having a name of God that you can't pronounce, which like really gets at the fact that it's this kind of like, intangible mystery and not like a person, like a being. But the word for God, which I can't pronounce, is actually an amalgamation of the Hebrew words for was is and will be. Hayah, Hoveh, Yahya. If you mush all those words together, it'll create the word for God. So God is essentially like, everything that is was and will be. So when you ask me like, how do I experience God? How do I connect with God? To me, it's how can I plug into that awareness that everything is one, that we are all connected, not just like we all people, but like everything that existence is connected and not just like everything currently existence, but like everything that was in existence, everything that is and everything that will be is like, all of that is connected. You can either think of it as like, there is a life force that flows through all those things or just like all of those things mush together or God. And when you're describing that awareness, is it an intellectual idea, an emotional idea, a physical feeling, like at a peak experience of that awareness, what is happening inside your mind or inside your heart? Yeah, it's a great question. And like I remember asking this question to one of my spiritual teachers because she was like, okay, you're home, we're up for this month. Is every day I want you to spend 10 minutes meditating on the oneness of existence? Sure. And like when I heard the assignment, I was like, okay. And then like I sat down on my first day, I'm just like, okay, like what am I doing? Like one, okay, everything is one. Everything is one. Everything is one. And then like of course, like I went to that intellectual place, I was like, what does that mean? Everything is one. Is that mean that we're like literally connected? Like glue? Like is it something flows through all of it? And so like there is like a way in which you can grab with that intellectually. But for me, one such sort of move past that intellectual piece of it, there is a felt experience of it. If we are all part of like one entity that is God, we always all belong. And there is just this like beautiful sense of peace for me that just kind of like descends on my body when I'm feeling kind of on the outs or sort of, you know, not belonging this sense of like, oh, we're all part of this. Like we're all on this together. All this sort of distinctions kind of fall apart. That's like one way in which I definitely like experience God is when I allow myself to relax into that awareness. And so it's the way you're describing it. It's like a place you can go sometimes with stillness and contemplation. Yeah. That's kind of how I experience it. Yeah. That's really beautiful. I mean, it's like, I feel like people talk about one entity and like trying to get away from the self. And I understand those things. But I guess I hadn't connected it to a feeling of belonging. Totally. Yeah. And I think I've been in the core in the Jewish teachings or at least in like the mystical spiritual teachings that like I've really gravitated towards. And like it's funny because people ask me like, where do you encounter God like most in the world? And like I really thought about that. And like honestly, the place where I like most encounter God is on the dance floor. Really? Yeah. And it was like kind of cheesy. But like, there's this moment when you're dancing. And like, I don't know, my particular like electronic music. I don't know if it's true in other genres of music where you're just like on the dance floor. And you were just like feeling the music. Like it is just like vibrating inside of you and then you just look around and everyone else is just feeling it, right? Because you're all dancing to the same beat. You might be dancing in different ways and some people are like more subtle and some people are bigger movements. And now, but you're all dancing in the same beat. And it's just like, ooh, like I feel connected to everyone on this dance floor because we are all in it and we're all feeling it. That's one this. So that's the place where I most feel connected to God. Maybe the other place is like when I'm surfing. Really? Yeah. I generally go surf at sunrise and there's this moment where like the world is all dark and then like you kind of see like the beginning glimmers. I'm on the west coast. So some does not rise over the ocean. But you just kind of see the like glimmers of the like morning light kind of sparkling over the water. And like it's I actually don't feel connected to God when I catch a wave. I feel when I'm just kind of like floating and you kind of like the waves kind of come and it almost feels kind of like the heartbeat of the earth. And it's just like, oh, there's just this kind of like steady presence connected to something bigger that I can just relax into. So those are like maybe as I think about it, like two places where I definitely feel God. I'm always encountering studies suggesting that basically if you can believe in God in many ways, you're likely to be happier. And I was like, well, that's great. But like it's not the type of thing you could rationally persuade yourself into doing. It's like what advice would you have for someone who doesn't believe in God? Like what are the things from your practice that you think a nonbeliever can still benefit from? I was talking to my friend Adina this week who's a spiritual leader here in Brooklyn and we were talking about this whole idea of like believers versus nonbelievers. And we were saying how that doesn't feel like the right way to divide the world between like atheists and believers or like people who believe in God and people who don't believe in God. It's people who think about the nature of existence and people who don't. You know, a lot of you ask like, do you believe in God? My version of that question is I start with, what do you believe in? You know, in every spiritual tradition there are hundreds, if not thousands of ways, to define God. And I think that in essence, you can find a definition of God in some spiritual tradition that resonates with what you believe in in terms of the nature of existence. But that means you have to be like curious about like the nature of existence, why are we here? What's happening in the world beyond what can be explained by science? You have to be interested in asking those questions. That's funny. I mean, I know your bent is towards not being prescriptive. But I do think like the advice I would take from that or when I take from that is that perhaps more important than whether somebody has faith or doesn't have faith or what they have faith in. I do think it's pretty important to wrestle with larger questions because I think if you don't, you end up just being stuck with the small ones. Like your life just kind of becomes, am I happy today? Was I happy yesterday? Will I be happier tomorrow? Will I get this? Will I lose this? And sometimes things go really well and sometimes they go really poorly. But it's almost like there's larger questions about existence or refuge because they give you a larger time scale of meaning than whatever is happening right now. Totally. Yeah. People ask me like, well, why do you believe in God? And I'm like, because I like to. It nourishes me. It gives my life meaning. It gives me an impetus to sort of grapple with these questions. I don't believe in God, because I feel like I have to. It actually brings meaning to my life. Yeah. But I also like, I don't want to just punt on your question because I can give a more specific answer of like, what do I recommend? I'm a big fan of prayer. And you might be like, wait, what? If someone doesn't believe in God, the prescription you're going to give them is prayer. And to me, I like to say, there's that phrase, dance like nobody's watching or whatever. So I like to say, pray like nobody's listening. So there's two parts of it. One is just stating what you want, verbalizing and allowing those words to count out of your mouth actually has a positive impact. People who verbalize what they want feel more of a sense of hope. Yeah. And then number two is, I really do find a lot of power in this idea of surrender. Yeah. You know, just like, oh, like, there's something I really want. And like, one solution is to just like work my ass off and like grasp and like really try and get that thing. And then like, there's another strategy, which actually in this strategy are not mutually exclusive. You can say like, actually, this is like, totally not within my control to get. And I'm going to like, surrender my ability to make this thing happen. And there is something perhaps counterintuitively really helpful for me at least, to just be like, yeah, I'm going to just like put this out there and like surrender my sort of exclusive control around making this happen. And so like prayer to me like has those two components to it. And that's like one genre of prayer, which is like wanting things to happen. There's also like a whole other genre of prayer which is around gratitude, which I find really powerful. And like, if you're, you know, more traditional person, you're like, thinking God or forgiving you these things. But then if you don't think of God as like a person that gives and doesn't give things, there's still a value in being like, I'm so grateful for, you know, for all the things that I have in my life and to get specific about it and to on a daily basis connect with gratitude. So, you know, it can take on a different flavor, depending on what your conception of God is. But I think that anyone can benefit from a prayer practice. There's not much I expect you to say and I like it. I also just like, it's funny this year, we've sort of been collecting advice from people. And I would not have predicted at the beginning that where we'd be sort of a year in is like, consider prayer and surrender. (laughing) - The world is so fucked, that like the only thing left to do is just surrender. (laughing) - It's a piece of the equation. It's not the whole recipe, but, you know, I think it's an important practice. - So you got, thank you for telling me about this. - Thanks so much for having me. - When I spoke to Zvika, I was having a nice week, the week after it was more challenging. And I found this conversation playing back in my head during the tough week. I had this feeling that I forgot I have sometimes, which was a little jealous of people who are able to believe. It's a funny kind of jealousy. There are so many things you get to choose, how to behave, who to spend your time with. But if you choose to believe in something, I'm not sure what you have really is belief, or if it's belief, it's not the kind of belief I'm jealous of. But Zvika had told me the two things someone like me might take from someone like him were prayer and surrender. You could try saying what you hoped would happen, or you could try letting go of your ability to control it. Sometimes I think for those of us who don't believe, we make this mistake that if no one's in control, we have to be. Maybe that's wrong. This week, I'm trying to surrender. I'll let you know how it goes. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJVOT, and Shruti Pinnemanan. This episode was produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armand Bizarrean, fact checking this week by Holly Patton. At Odyssey, our executive producer is Leah Restennis, and thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Conganer, Moore Kern, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hillary Schuff. Our agent is Orrin Rosenbaum and UTA. If you'd like to support our show and get ad free episodes, zero reruns, and some additional audio, please consider signing up for Incognito mode. If you learn more, search engine.shop. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free. On the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We will see you in just a couple weeks with a brand new episode. Ooh, we gotta make that. Until then, have a cool summer. (upbeat music) (gentle music)