What do melting glaciers mean for the Himalayas?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Every day, millions of customers engage with AI agents, like me. We work round the clock and have the facts at our fingertips. We're fast and effective, but incredibly patient. And we're built on Sierra, the leading AI-powered customer experience platform. No hold music, just answers and action. Visit sierra.ai to learn more. That's sierra.ai. In Turkey, if you're willing to take a detour, you'll discover the food even social media hasn't got to yet. From Michelin stars and wine and urla to traditional recipes and the home of baklava in the East. Discover the culinary capital of Gaziantep and talk to the locals. Every dish has its own story. Flavors, experimentation and tradition, Turkey has it all. Plan your detour at Goturkia.com. Have you ever been to the Himalayas? I haven't, but I know someone who has. Caroline Daley's, the Pakistan correspondent for BBC News. Hello, I hear the Himalayas are absolutely breathtaking. Give us a flavour of what they look like, what they smell like. I mean, they're truly incredible. And this particular area that I went to, Gilgit-Baltistan, is really special, not just because the Himalayas are there, which are obviously incredible to see, but you've also got the Karakorum and the Hindu Kush, three enormous mountain ranges that meet in the same place and driving through from the moment you arrive in Gilgit-Baltistan, you're just aware of firstly how small you are and how enormous this landscape is. Driving along the mountain highways, you will see dust coming up from the side of the roads because there's been a very small but recent landslide. And then sometimes you'll see an enormous golden boulder that will have rolled down in a maybe not quite so recent landslide and broken through some of the barriers. So you're really aware of how fragile this environment is and how fragile you are in that environment, how much the weather, the temperament, the climate, everything will affect your experience of being in this majestic and beautiful place. Yeah, I mean, Carrie, you really hit the nail on the head here because climate change is causing this beautiful place to change. Glaciers are melting faster than before. And that's incredibly dangerous for people like you who are travelling through. But also the people who live there downstream of these glaciers who are at risk of flash floods. Yeah, it was a sunny day. I went for my school. But the morning everything was normal. My teacher told me that the Hassanabad Bridge has collapsed. And I was thinking that, no, it's not possible that our homes could be collapsed. I was a bit confused because no one was telling me that what's going on. So Kamal is 18 years old. When we meet, she's dressed in white trousers and orange top with lace detail. Her black hair is tied back at the nape of her neck. And I speak to her next to a tributary of the Hunza River. Yeah, because she used to live just downstream of the Hassanabad Bridge. But back in May, 2022, a glacial lake burst its banks, sending vast amounts of water scouring the river banks. The ground, the home, the bridge was disappearing beneath their feet into the brown water below. When I came here, nothing was safe. I was thinking about what would happen after this. Will anyone come to us and would anyone save us? I, with my colleagues, with my siblings, we took all the things out of the home. We ran out of there. Kamal's home was lost to the floods, but she escaped with her life. This week on The Climate Question from the BBC World Service, we're asking how can Pakistanis survive these melting glaciers? I'm your guide, Greya Jackson. The brilliant Carrie Daly's has been reporting on this story for the BBC. Carrie, can you just give us a sense of the journey there? Because I imagine it must have been a very long one. It's an incredible journey. And even from the moment when you're offline, you will see out the window these snow-topped, incredible mountains. And from the moment you land, you're surrounded by them. You drive through these peaks and then you suddenly reach the Hunza Valley, which is green and full of agricultural land and orchards. And it's an incredibly special and very beautiful place to visit. Yeah, I mean, I saw the photos that you gathered whilst you were there, and it is striking how green this section is. And then all around it's sort of brown dust, isn't it? And this place is in the foothill of Himalayan glaciers. I mean, how much water is locked up there in that ice in the glaciers? So in the wider area, an area that is often referred to as the third pole, and that is because there is more ice there than anywhere else on earth, apart from the north and south poles. In this particular area, there are about 7,000 or so glaciers that we were told. And these glaciers change in size. That happens to some degree normally every year during the seasons. But of course, what we have seen and what we were hearing about during the course of our trip was how those glaciers have changed so dramatically in such a relatively short space of time. How dramatically? So the glacial of themselves are melting. That means as a result that sometimes they surge forward, sometimes they retreat. And I was speaking to someone called Zubair Ahmad, who was from the Disaster Management Authority in this particular part of Pakistan near the Afghan border, who was talking about the fact that some of these glaciers have moved by several kilometres. The glaciers are melting very rapidly, very rapidly. Most of the glaciers are deteriorating. And a few glaciers have been deteriorated almost four kilometres. Now we are receiving torrential rains and unpredictable rains. Secondly, the flash floods have been increased, the debris flows and the land slides. So what happened to that 18-year-old Kamal? That wasn't an isolated incident. This has been happening lots and lots. Yes, and in fact, the Glacial Lake Outburst Flood, or GLOF, as they are often referred to, that she was talking about that had caused so much destruction. There had actually been two other of those GLOF events in the course of the last five years from that one glacier. The UN Development Programme, the UNDP, did a report in 2022 and said that these GLOFs had drastically increased. They'd actually said that there were 64 of them in Gilgit-Baltistan in just that year, and all between June and August. Gosh, I mean, if they're as big as the ones that Kamal was describing, that must be absolutely devastating. One thing I'm not clear on their carry is what exactly is a glacial lake outburst and how does climate change influence them? So very roughly, it's when water from a glacier melts and forms a lake. Now, in this particular case, what had happened was that the glacier had surged forward. As a result, water started forming in an area that hadn't happened before. And then when the water became so heavy, it burst through and then came in one big gush all the way through the valley. And because of the force of this build-up, it has the power and the ability to pick up rocks and stones, debris, homes, bridges, anything that's in its path. And all of that then comes thundering down through the valley and causes such a high level of destruction. When I spoke to Zubair, he told me about the sort of impact that these GLOFs have. There is a big shift in that. These floods badly damages our agricultural lands as well. These glacial lake outburst floods are a potential threat to the lives of the people because 80% of the population is dependent on these glaciers. And they are settled on the watersheds of these glaciers. Right, well, water is life, as they say. You know, you can't really underline how important this water is. Yes, so many people are living alongside the tribute trees, the rivers that are getting their water from these glaciers. And that's vitally important, not just for people who are reliant on agriculture but everybody. And it also means that it's difficult to try to relocate people to other places as well because, of course, that water is providing people's life, but it also means that they are vulnerable as well. I mean, obviously, this is really problematic for people who live right on the banks and nearby. But what about further downstream? Because these tributaries go on to feed massive rivers, don't they? And lots more people are dependent on those. Yes, that is the really big question about how this is going to impact. So Pakistan, for example, is a water-stressed country. And so it's dependent on all of these major rivers, many of which do come from the glaciers. And it's also not even just a problem for Pakistan. There are other countries, too, that rely on rivers that originate in this area that's referred to as the Third Pole, so, for example, India and China. And in general, if glaciers become unpredictable, the argument goes, so could the water supply? OK, well, I want to come back to Kamal, who had to abandon her home to the floodwaters and move into a shelter. For two to three months, we stayed in shelters. And after one year, we built our new home and now we are living there. Many of the people or many of the neighbors are not living here because they went to different places and the whole system has collapsed. I mean, I can't begin to imagine what Kamal must be feeling at the very least a complete loss of security, really, that she's lost her home and where she grew up. And I think that was what was really clear when I was speaking to her, was that you could see how upsetting it is. She doesn't live far away now, but she can go and visit that spot. And every time she does, she says that she just feels this sense of loss because this is where all her childhood memories were. And now it's this barren cliff edge because the earth has been so ripped away. And I think it's just destroyed this sense that the place that she lives is something that she can rely on. It's fearful, it's dangerous to live here because there is no guarantee that when the flood will come and ruin our places. And there are possibilities that someday flood will ruin this place. But despite that fear that the floods may well come again, she and her family, they stay. Yes, I mean, this is the place that she's always lived, that her family have always lived. And it's not an uncommon feeling. A lot of people feel like they don't have anywhere else. A few houses down from Kamal met a man called Sultan Ali who is 74 years old. He was dressed in a light blue shirt and trousers. He's a grandfather and his granddaughters were playing in the garden as we were talking. But yes, he was very adamant that he didn't really feel like he had a choice but to stay there despite the events that happened in May of 2022. It was so horrific, the flood was carrying rocks the size of our houses. Those rocks struck the ground near our homes, creating tremors that felt like an earthquake. Cracks appeared in all the houses, affecting 15 families. It still feels crazy when I remember the fear I experienced that day. It was unimaginable. My house was completely cracked. I spent two million rupees to renovate and fix it, come inside and see. So Sultan did take us around his house and he has repaired it. But you can still see and you can hear when you talk to him about how much this worry weighs on him and what he would do if something like this would happen again. It's still very dangerous. There is a risk that floods can come at any time. But moving somewhere else isn't possible. We have no other options for our family. You can see my granddaughter. They'll face many difficulties if they continue living here. They are very worried because of this sense of helplessness, constantly thinking about where will we live. What kind of life is this? How will we continue living like this? They asked me to get a safe shelter. How can we live here? I don't have the resources. The children are very worried. It's not normal. As I approach the end of my life, I feel helpless. So what can people like Kamal and Sultan do? In a moment, we'll find out on the climate question from the BBC World Service. I'm Greg Jackson, and with me is Caroline Davies, the Pakistan correspondent from BBC News. And she's been telling us all about a story she's been working on in the Himalayas. Hello. Hi, so let's talk about solutions here to the melting glaciers and the people who are threatened by them. The obvious solution seems to be move the entire village. And we've seen this kind of effort before on the climate question in Malawi, but it's really tricky for lots of different reasons. Yes, and this is happening in certain areas of Gilgit-Baltistan too. There's a village called Bad Swat, which is not that far away, and it's been flooded multiple times, now considered to be impossible to live in this village. And as a result, people are being relocated deeper into the valley. But, of course, it's very expensive, it's time-consuming, and people don't always want to go there. Zubair from the Disaster Management Authority also told me a bit about some of the other reasons why it's difficult. This is another issue that we have very limited land, very limited resources. It's almost impossible to displace the people, because we don't have these common lands to shift the people. And secondly, where we will shift them. We have a lot of barren lands, but these barren lands cannot be used as permanent settlements because of laking of the resources. We don't have proper water resources and other civic facilities. And thirdly, most of the people who are living in their villages, they do not want to leave their own ancestral lands and their properties. So, mostly we shift them in their own lands, their own properties. We cannot shift them to the other places. Resettlement is rather impossible in the village of Mishta. Right, so it's not just about the money here. There isn't this suitable land, you know, infrastructure is what he's describing, right? Schools, roads, access to water that's also safe from these floods. But the other thing that's quite striking to me that reminds me of people I've spoken to before about this, is that, you know, people don't want to leave their memories. Yes, and added to that as well, I would also say that there is a worry that if you move from one place to another, what is the guarantee that the next place is going to be safe as well? People just really have this sense of insecurity about the areas that they live in. Right, OK, so what can be done then? Well, it is expensive, so the World Bank has said in 2022 that Pakistan needs $348 billion from 2023 to 2030 to respond to its climate and development challenges. And that is an enormous amount of money, and even the World Bank says that could still be an underestimate. Pakistan in general is one of the countries that is the most vulnerable to climate change. It's only responsible for less than 1% of global greenhouse gas emissions. So the concern we heard quite a lot were people feeling very frustrated that they don't feel that they can make a meaningful difference when it comes to reducing the cause of climate change. There are things that people can do, maybe they can adapt, they can put some barricades in the way, and that was some work that was being done to try to limit the impact of some of these potential floods or landslides. But there's also a real frustration there that it feels like this is something that they can't change, that is part of a bigger system. And I suppose you just bear about it. We are not contributing to the climate change, so we cannot stop these events, because this is a global issue. What we do is we can just get prepared our people to face such events. For that, we are doing on behalf of government of Billu Daldesan, I would say that we are trying to sensitise the people. We have some physical interventions as well, like we make these river embankments to protect the communities, their lands. We are installing these early warning systems in most vulnerable areas. How do these early warning systems work, Carrie? So I went to an area that's quite close by in the village of Pasu, about an hour away from Hassanabad. And there, they're keeping a very close eye on the Pasu glacier. They're monitoring it, they're keeping an eye on the water levels. But as well, they are training up the village to have evacuation drills and to also provide first aid and to do things like river crossings, being able to rescue people from high levels and sort of repel them down the cliff edges. And that's because people who live there know that if something were to happen, it could take days for outside help to come in. So they are going to be the first responders. OK, let's go. Come on, slowly, slowly, OK? Don't run too long. Be careful. You know, you're talking about repelling over cliff faces and lots of mountaineering. I mean, it sounds pretty dangerous, especially if they can't access medical help very easily. Yes, I mean, people are getting trained from really quite early on. I spoke to one 21-year-old who'd already been doing it for years and years and her father did it. And this is something that a lot of the volunteers have done for decades before we spoke to a few people who've been part of those sort of volunteering efforts to rescue people who get stuck up the mountains. The problem is, of course, is that people are seeing so many more of these events, so much more unpredictability, that a lot of them feel this real sense of duty to their community to get trained, to have these skillsets, so that if something happens, they're there to be able to help. One of the volunteers that I spoke to is called Shazia. She is 18 years old, very enthusiastic with Kylie Haier, and she was so proud of the first-aid work that she was doing of being part of this community effort. So we are giving the first aid and we are having training. The disaster can happen in any form, accident or flood or anything. And Shazia has also told me that she is ready to be able to rescue many people, even though she's seen so many changes in her area and does find it scary. She is very determined that she will stay here and she will help her community. I have seen floods, I have seen soil erosion, I have seen how people have lost their precious lands and everything. So it's so sad that global warming has that much effect on us, especially in the northern area. This is my community, and I believe that we have to pay back to our community. So this is what we have done since childhood. How many villages have a similar system to Pasu? So Zubair told me that they have wanted to put these sorts of systems in about a hundred of the glaciers and the valleys around the area, and that they had presented this initial list. And bear in mind, as they say, there are so many of these glasses, thousands. But then because of limited resources, at that particular point, they were only able to introduce 16. So that gives you an idea of how big a scope and an issue this is. Yeah, and I was thinking back to that figure you gave us from the World Bank. Was it 300 and something billion? Because, you know, ultimately, these things do need financing. And often an argument made is that finance should come from countries who are historically responsible for climate change. Now, at the most recent climate conference, COP 29 in Azerbaijan, there was US$300 billion table a year from 2035. But that is supposed to be for the whole world, not just for Pakistan, right? And I wonder, what was the response from Islamabad? So Pakistan has been very vocal about exactly this issue and about the need for money. And Pakistan was present at COP 29. They haven't made an official statement of response to that money that has been pledged. But Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif did speak and said that it can't become the norm for debt to cover the cost of climate resilience in places like Pakistan, but others also all around the world that are facing these issues. For Kamal and Sultan, the place they grew up is no longer the same, and their future there is somewhat uncertain. Now, I could see the mountains, the glory, and everything is here, like the green. But now, since flood came, and it has collapsed, everything is looking like a barren place. There were no such problems when I was young. It was very peaceful. I'm 74 now. I worry about the future. It seemed bleak, and there'll be many difficulties ahead. And there's nothing we can do about it. I can't blame anyone. It's just our fate. That's quite a striking statement to me, Carrie. It's our fate, and we can't blame anyone. Did it strike you at the time? Yes, I think a lot of people feel so out of control of this situation that they just feel like there's not very much they can do. And so there's a sort of strange form of acceptance that if something happens, something will happen. And there's not very much that they can do to step in. I mean, when you set out to tell this story, what drew you to it? You know, what did you want listeners to take away from everything that you'd gathered? I think what really struck me on this story was how little these particular individuals are contributing to the problems. These are people who live in small rural communities who've spent most of their lives there and who are experiencing so much change in the course of their lifetime. I think sometimes we view climate change as these sort of incremental changes of it can sound nebulous of a sort of degree or two there. And then you see somewhere like Gilgit-Baltistan, and you speak to people who are there who have seen so much change before their eyes, who, as you can hear from Sultan, who's in his 70s, who has experienced these sort of transitions, and it makes you realize how quickly the world can change around you. But I think that the main impact that I felt very strongly speaking to Komal and Sultan was just this underlying fear of what could happen, of how quickly their lives had been turned upside down, and an underlying concern that that could happen again in the future. Caroline Davies, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on The Climate Question. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. If you'd like to send us your climate questions, please do. You can WhatsApp us, the number's plus, four, four, eight thousand, three, two, one, seven, two, one, or you can email us. It's The Climate Question at bbc.com. Both are on the BBC website and podcast feed if you just want to cut and paste them. And also thank you to our production team. They were Osman Igbal, Ellie House, Uzman Zaheed, Karmal Dian Khan, Fakir Munir, Simon Watts, Rudd Farke and Tom Brignol. I'm Grair Jackson and I'll see you next time.