The conversation explores core principles of leadership, personal growth, and resilience through military and entrepreneurial experiences. Leadership is shown not to be about hierarchy or titles, but about trust, transparency, and mutual support—especially in high-stress environments like combat or crisis response. The speakers emphasize the importance of asking for help as an act of courage and wisdom, challenging the military and entrepreneurial cultures that prioritize self-sufficiency over collaboration. A key insight is the need to replace outdated terms like "active shooter" with broader "active threat" frameworks that prevent hesitation and misjudgment in real-time responses. The discussion also highlights personal transformation: overcoming past trauma, managing guilt, and redefining identity after major life events such as military service. In entrepreneurship, scaling requires mentorship and intentional reflection—particularly around values and culture. Ultimately, success is measured not by financial gain or external achievements, but by the quality of relationships, the impact on others, and the legacy one leaves behind. These themes are interwoven with a deep respect for shared human experience, showing that despite differences in background, most people operate from the same core principles of service, resilience, and connection.
You ready to do this, bud? Yeah, buddy. Oh, shit. Are we opening up with the car? We're just going to quiz each other right now. So we're starting. Some of those are a bastard, man. You're like, I don't want to address this currently. Wow, you aren't actually just going to dive in there. Go for it. Not for small talkers. Yeah. I don't know what I'm getting myself into. I kind of know. Yeah. You did this the other day. I did, but I think it's-- I think it's wonderful. Like the-- I just didn't want the book to be the end state. You know? What are we doing with it? You know, kind of thing. Yeah. Or what do you do with it? I like the concepts, but I struggle a little bit. Or I don't necessarily know exactly what to do with it. I didn't know that this is the end all be all, but it's just-- it's a good way to build on it. So, well, look at you. We are going to just-- Straight open width. You did far better than me shuffling. Yeah. Might sail. Moonlight and vague. That's right. Sure. Of course we need-- yeah, we got to cut. One of them in here is the, how do you use this one goes on top? You got to cut towards me. Hey. What's going on here? [LAUGHTER] All right. Oh, god. First off, who's answering this? We both? It may not even be a challenge. It's going to be an all-answered reflection or a challenge. I answered the first one and then you'll do the opposite for me. Oh, challenge. Oh. Ask for help with one thing today. Not because you're weak, but because you're smart enough to know you don't have to carry everything alone. That's easy. It is. That is-- well, like, where's my wallet? Where's my wallet? I have no idea. Where are my wallet? Guys from our world, though, feel like whether it's true or not, they have to do everything by themselves. Yeah. But it's for a team. That's what you tell yourself. I will shoulder everything I possibly can to make sure the team doesn't suffer at all. They will destroy themselves, which I think is a very noble thing. Not maybe the smartest long-term strategy, but a noble pursuit. Yeah. It's super dangerous. And they don't want to ask for help. And they're surrounded by people that love them, that would help them. I mean, it's such a blessing, though, to have experience both sides of that type of environment and culture. Yeah. Now, when it comes to things that are going to appear weak, personal issues, that's where I struggled for, well, 37 years before I ever really truly asked someone for help. But, you know, in my time in the 82nd and 7 Special Forces Group and then in the unit, what I saw was that, like, the good leaders, which is really hard to describe, and I loved how you described leadership and the connection. That was so easy to describe, though. Well, the part about the book, the drop-proof book that you wrote, then I thought was, there's so many parts of it, but one of them, it was how it's kind of easy to mistake good leadership in the military versus is it, or is it just team success, where you're going to succeed in spite of the leadership times. Yeah. And then on the outside, I was giving you speech in Colorado recently. And I'm still looking for a great example of a command photo because I would want to put it up and describe to everybody what it is they're looking at. And then I would say, okay, who's the good leaders and who's the bad? And they would all sit there and they would look at it's an impossible question. Because you and I, I don't know shit about Army uniforms, I would understand the ribbons, but lost on the ranks completely, much like the Navy. Same. With the Navy. I'm like, what, Petty? You would say, I know. Why are you so petty? Like we have. Heavy on the petty, light on the officers. What I have to tell people, but, you know, of course the military could not have a single rank structure that we could seamlessly talk across, but what I would, the point of putting that picture up and explaining what people can't see is that the people at the unit level could deeply tell you who is effective and who isn't effective. But on the outside world, they see that uniform and they say, that's a leader. They're going to be good and it's dangerous to think that way. No, for sure. But to the other point of, I think, experiencing good leadership that would transcend the military structure is what I'm talking about. So the guys that, and that's how I've became the leader of become is through all the bad and the good and the experiences. And then the things you just don't know, like with entrepreneurship, like how do I translate that stuff into this world? But the answer is figured out by the way, it's sure. Can you write it down and take the picture of your phone for me? You're a little further along than me, but my back, well, you know, I'm further along in time. Let's not assume that I'm further along in time and age, maybe a little bit age too, but the empowerment, right? Like, if I give you a task or I've been given a task and I don't give an opportunity or create a culture of like any questions, do you have what you need? What can we help you with with this task? Like that's the, that's the, if we don't do those things, if we don't create the environment, and we just say, here's the task, get it done by 1700, whatever. It's five o'clock for you, civilian folk. Yeah. I know the camera's on. Everywhere. I'm over there. I'm like, I'm a podcast or two, you know, but the black and blue podcast taken out. And I, and those tasks like in good, the good subordinates are going to get those things done. But they don't really understand what they just did, necessarily, not as much as they could and you're not developing your replacements. So thinking about like that one up to down, have you heard that? Yeah, one up to down is like a huge way that I've translated, you know, I've been able to translate that into entrepreneurship of like, explain what that is for the audience. So wherever I'm at in this, in this, in life and in my professional life as well, like, I need to be thinking about, how do I learn how to do the job above me? That's the one up and everything that could set those conditions. And then I can, I never forget how to do the jobs to down. It's not beneath me because at the end of the day, like, you can't come in today, I'm doing your job. And I'm going to try to do it well. Yeah. So to be led well and then to lead well, it takes that one up to down mindset that you never, you never arrive, you know, it's the journey, you know, piece of it. So, but that, that opportunity that we can give are our teammates that we work with, like a planning exercise, like, hey, you know, here's what we got, we have to do this. And there's these micro tasks in this mission, I'm going to be working on these things. But I need you and you to figure out how you guys want to do these two other things. And I don't care if you do it or you do it, but you guys come up with a plan on how you want to execute it. And you let me know what you need to support you in that. And that's how you start the progression of developing them into the one up to down. And you have to be, you have to create environments where, all right, this op, the two I see is the T L. And the T L is the six I see, you know, and it's hard to do, but it's fun. If you do it, and you do it, you know, often, and there's times and places to do it, obviously, and I take that mindset with me, because I think one of the biggest things I can help with or that we can help with, and this may seem trivial to some, but leadership or shoot, me planning and actions on and after actions, you know, you talk about that extensively in the book, but it's so powerful to law enforcement as I'm training, because, you know, my training company is blue bearing and I've been doing it for over four years now, really on terminal leave before I retired. But you've all day really woke me up on active threat response, active attack is active shooter is a failed term. We still term it active shooter because of SEO, because you what do they call it now in the profession? So it's, it depends on the state. Yeah. But as a, as a, as a larger kind of across the nation, it's still being termed active shooter response training. And that's the reason why I still put it anywhere in the title of our courses from a search, yeah, search engine stuff. So, but it's a failed term for a couple of reasons, not to make this about training, but my point is is that it, it causes indecision paralysis with, with without information in that moment, other than, hey, what got us here? A call about shooting at this location. It's called a school time of day common sense. So the, the, there's things that violate the, the five principles of patrolling. So planning, reconnaissance, security control, common sense. Time of day, what are they doing inside the target? The innocent bystanders. Avoid denied defend, which is, if they can avoid, avoid. So it's better than run, hide, fight, because one could be run the wrong way. It couldn't, it could very well consist of running. It could very well consist of hiding, but avoid denied defend is more appropriate. So think of that as the, the innocent bystanders that are victims in this situation, like that, the whole point of us responding with our hesitation is to, to give them more time as we're distracting, isolating, neutralizing law enforcement love their acronyms too. Or their, their phrases, I guess, but, um, my point is, is that there's been cases in what I use, I use the, the data. I don't, I don't make things up. I use my experience with the radison blue and, and training for us to rescue and doing it and.
It's to help teach an appropriate curriculum, and we call ours the Protector Mindsack course Because it's a mindset that you can take everywhere with you and we teach these tangible skills But the shooter term What happens when you when you get there something that notification happened and now you're there and you don't hear shooting Base up so it's brought to you by black rifle coffee summer rewards people who move the ones who get up early Who stay out late who push farther who work harder and black rifle coffee company built the fuel to keep up while some brands are suddenly wrapping themselves in patriotism because of America's 250th birthday BRCC has proudly celebrated America her military and the people who serve in this country since day one Every bag every box every can purchased help support the communities that make America stronger and this summer Stock your cooler with their new ready-to-drink cold brew coffee cans in just black and vanilla and when you need more energy Grab their new bomb pop inspired energy drink tiger strike with zero sugar and 200 milligrams of caffeine tiger strike was built for Range days road trips long shifts and everything else summer throws at you find black rifle coffee cold brew and tiger strike now at Walmart or your local grocery store black rifle coffee shop or online at blackwafflecoffee.com veteran founded American roasted this is America's coffee back to the show Yeah, do we just stand by and wait for backup? I would hope not what happens and I think that that term it is being phased out of active shooter versus active threat or active attack and it's I can see the justification for that yeah, and it that's a big part of it and it may not always involve a gun Yeah, so the term needs to be all encompassing for just the ability for for some for an individual or individuals to Cause you know great harm or killing people a large amount of people in an in an populated area unrelated And it doesn't mean that something that is like a domestic situation and like a Something that someone's work their their girlfriend's cheating on them with the coworker and they go there to kill people specifically and it turns into An active attack, but people get so wound up and it's it's such a big deal because The moment things go to well, there's not active killing happening. It goes to barricade Which changes the tactics completely as you know, and that's when That's when we can set the conditions, you know and in our favor like you think Afghanistan Iraq Syria like those are easier missions Especially if you can isolate and contain. Yeah, and you have The cover of darkness. You have relative cover. You know with the two foot mud walls like in some of those buildings, but At the end of the day like the biggest difference between all the close quarters battle and I like close quarters battle CQB because that's what I was taught and it's right but versus CQC and Terminal words matter and as I teach this and translate this to law enforcement like this is a battle for morality and the confines of a structure So we got to simplify the chaos the unknown the only absolute enemy gets to vote who what when where how why and We don't just control, you know, the where right the time of day. What's in front of that breach? You know like what's the but we try to simplify it with how we teach close quarters battle, but it's It's a battle for morality where something someone is in there that is worth us safeguarding or Obtaining, you know, and and depending on what it is if it's in a high-risk arrest warrant It's like well, let's gas them out wait them out turn power out call them out, right and But once we commit to going through that doorway the actions are the same man dominate maneuver Yeah, you talk about that in the book, which is wonderful because what does that do? It splits the attackers attention Otherwise you're reacting to them. Yeah exactly. Yeah, you you talk about that and it's like I'd much rather them be reactive to me Yes, versus me reacting to them. Yeah, that's the whole like domination of the space. I was actually I consider myself fortunate So I actually did a deployment with a squadron did you and it was back in 2005 They had split the country's geographically and we're still gonna come back and answer our questions on the cards Sure, that one's actually yours. I have a better way to phrase that for your entrepreneurial journey because I'm just fascinated by other entrepreneurs Yeah, but to talk about CQB. I think that's a correct phrasing too So we went down and we did essentially a modified workup with you guys at your shoe house And I think you guys sent up six because at that time they have several Eight or eight whatever made twenty. Yeah, yeah, but they had who's counting they had said all right Devrup you guys get Afghanistan Cag you guys get Iraq yeah people High enough upset that may not be a good idea if we force that out Let's have a little bit across nation, but it's cool because we got to come down There's not that much difference Once you clear the threshold of the door between the way that they were doing it back in 2005 and we were doing it back in 2005 Very small differences. Yeah, almost all the concepts were the same, but it was cool Because you could sit there and say well, why do you guys do it like that and they would answer I'm like, okay Awesome, and then we changed the way that we did it while on deployment with you guys so we could seamlessly integrate in that way A dude was just a dude. Yeah, instead of having to set. Okay, here's your little pocket of you go do Navy stuff over here And we'll go do all of these stuff. It's not gonna work. It's man. It's it's one of those things too with like You know where I'm at with my faith It's like instead of us talking about things that divide us. Let's talk about what unites us It was 99.8% the same and and but I will say that era not not having been there during that era In the unit like that there was a lot of lessons learned in blood. Oh, we were still that was the tail end of hey Let's run in they probably learned a lot from Those small unit exchanges too because yeah, I mean eight guys got hurt on target I got met a backed out of six of them went on little birds. Did you get hurt on that on a rotation with with a squander? I was on deployment with a squadron. That's when you got shot. Yeah. Oh, I didn't realize that yeah We were coming in essentially the white side of the building and then they had I mean we there were people everywhere But yeah, I mean six guys got lifted out on helicopters to us. I got the Bradley fighting vehicle Which just means though I wasn't that hurt in comparison to yeah, you know and Let's lost a lot of a lot of people Some of it was been and honestly - some of it was blue and blue. There was a breaching charge that put that was Command initiated With other people in close enough proximity that it did a substantial amount of damage There's so many lessons to be learned and we're not we are not What's the word Impervious like no, it was our guys who set the breach that ended up You know, that's what I'm saying like us just whether it's your former unit that you yeah worked with or mine like it Seeing things from a certain perspective. It always matters right like and and you got to be able to create that forum to talk about you know In excruciating level of detail any any tactical errors or grievances, but you know us killing our own is is You know, it's it's happened and it's also I mean how many gent bombs got dropped on our own people I'm not talking about the unit. I'm talking about just the military at large. Yeah, and we've learned a ton through the global war on terrorism and 20 plus years of of Turning forward at war is unprecedented and that's why I think our generation, you know, is Is set up to be very impactful One of the greatest generations that this country's ever seen But it's not because of what we did during the war. It's what we'd take and do for this country after with those lessons I could not agree more and that's huge. We got to do more and we are, but my point is is that If you're one of those guys that are out there Flapping lost like I don't know my identity so wrap up and what I used to do and nothing feels the same You're trying to replace something man. You're never going to find that again, and that's okay You need to grieve grieving is a part of life It's a blessing actually and how we grieve matters and Not to get scriptural on you, but Jesus wept, right? Why did Jesus weep? He wept because of because a Lazarus is family He knew he was going to raise him from the dead, but he wept. He held that space with with Jesus's sisters and family To to grieve to show us that grieving is a part of living and grieving Our identity is a big part. It's okay, man. Yeah, it's okay to not be okay in a moment But you can't stay that way or else it becomes like you said in the book. It becomes the tsunami, right and surviving that tsunami It's like it either destroys you defines you or improves you and That's a superpower if you can figure out how it improves you and it's not avoidance It's it's it's not shame shame is extremely unhealthy But at the end of the day it's remorse. Yep. I did that. I was a part of that or pride like yeah And I'm so proud to have served there and done the things that we were able to do But I am just one of of a a a massive Force that is so capable and I was so honored to serve there and and and just the military at large my service to this country is became so much more about What it originally started as which is well fighting like 9/11 happened and I was I'm I was
was a senior in high school and I remember where I was at and I just was like, I looked at this teacher that served in the Ranger Regiment in the '90s and he took me under his wing and I was like, what do I do? How do I sign up? I wanna go fight these people and I didn't know what I didn't know. But you know that, my team, my family, everything that I was missing growing up, I found in the military, good and bad. But one that goes away, what happens, man? You know, and I think replacing it is where we get stuck versus, you know, the growth in the journey of rediscovery and the journey of something new. It's beautiful, man. I think you have to remember too that the machine has already forgotten about you. Yeah. And that's okay. The machine has to forget about you to continue to be capable and to evolve and to innovate and to move on. I've asked myself many times and I don't know the answer to this and it's not that I want people constantly being reminded while they're in that they need to think about what's going to be next. But I think it would be a net benefit if leadership from time to time, we're able to sit everybody down and just say, listen, what we're doing is unbelievable, but don't forget that you do have a life that you have to live outside of this and you're going to have to go back to that or recreate that or replay it whatever term you would want to use. - My hope is that that's changing. - My hope is that that's changing because that never got talked about. - Same here. And so you got out in 2020, right? - 2022. - 22, so I got out in 2013. So if it's not, if it's not-- - You got out in 2013? - Mm-hmm. I thought I was 2018. - Maybe I misunderstood some numbers. I'm listening. I'm not going to say I'm reading, I'm listening to the book. - Not twisted. - Because last day at June 2013 is when I got out. - So hot take is people that say that they read a book, but they listen to it. Is it really, do they really read it? - I'm going to go to Michael for this. - Michael. - You are the neutral party. - I mean, it doesn't technically mean the same thing, but you absorbed it. - You consumed it. - Yeah. - You're not being, I listen to books all the time. - Yeah. - Me too. - And I'm not judging at all. Like I-- - Let me ask you this. - That's helped me, Eric helped me with this. My wife, because tracking and I'd converging like, whoa, double vision, all the things from blast centuries and just not being conditioned and practiced with reading from a young age. But like, listening and then tracking along, man, that helps me absorb everything so much quicker. - I was going to ask, for me, I absorb books better written word than audio. I like audio and I can absorb from that, but I have a deeper retention with a written. But that's just me. I don't think it matters. - Yeah. - No, I don't. It's one of the things that takes, man. - Yeah. - It's all the young, go hard to doing. - We're going to get back to the military stuff. - I'm calling Morgan by the way. - Yeah. (laughs) That's all in the show notes. - Yeah. - All right, and you're entrepreneurial juniors. Let's change this up. In your entrepreneurial journey, identify one thing for me that you have probably identified for yourself or you need to reach out to an expert, but you haven't yet. - Very good. - 'Cause you're pretty the question. - So, you got a lot of stuff going on. You have a training company. You have a podcast, you travel, you speak. That's a lot of stuff. And all of those things, there's no way that you could be a master in all of those things. So, in your journey or what you want to do, have you identified an area where you know that you're going to have to reach out to somebody for help yet and you just haven't done it. Maybe it's a business coach. Maybe you fill in the blank. Have you identified yet? Probably put it this way. - So, the biggest deficiency you might have identified in yourself and you know you need to do something about it, but you just haven't gotten around to it. - I think the next hurdle is, to answer the question very broadly, is any time I realize something, it's usually by making the mistake. And then I'm like, well, who can I lean on for different reasons, mentors, you know? And as a CEO, chief everything officer, it's very hard when you're a company at that time of three. And one of them is your wife. And like that's something that I think I need to reach out to more of is like, man, what a blessing it is to build something with your wife to do it. And for her to still have her passion in her own real estate brokerage and our life together. Like how do we, you know, how do I not lose sight of managing the business in a business way without things being so personal? - And I don't, maybe that's like, you can't really answer that question. - You can find that in a mentor or somebody that you see perhaps that has traveled through that and just literally asked them for advice. - It could be as simple as that. - Yeah, but I think scaling is the first, is the next thing that I know that I need help with. But I also am not in this rush and it's not procrastination. I know that because that's very simple. That's very easy for me to do. - Well, that's later, you know? - I'll get it to that later. That's tomorrow problem, you know? I was telling them at the coffee shop. I think it was Confucius that said, Confucius said. Don't do today what can be put off until tomorrow. - Yes. The problems of tomorrow will worry about themselves enough. - Scripture also says something about this too, but. - No, I am completely turning words around just to justify my own laziness at times. (laughs) - Well, we also don't know, we don't know. And I think, I think one of the-- - No, we know people who do, we don't know. - And that's what we gotta ask them. - That's the question. - And, you know, I can connect this to something more recently where it was something that I was challenged with. Like, hey, you know, we should, as men, we need three things. We need to be mentored by someone or people for different reasons to this point. Like there isn't like a one stop. If you have that person that is your mentor, if it's your father, God bless you, man. Like that is such a blessing. But if you don't have that, even if you do, you still need other people for different reasons, but someone older than you, wiser, longer, in whatever it is that you're seeking mentorship about. And then we need to be mentoring our peers. Like, we need to be mentoring each other, listening through things even just publicly that are done. Like, I really, I really appreciated that they did that. And then tell them, hey, man, that was awesome. Here's why. I think that was great. Or, what are you doing? You know, and I'm not the police. Like, I'm not like the moral police for everybody, but the people that I'm connected with, and this is a part of full circle, but the third being mentoring the people younger than us. Like, wherever they're at, maybe by age, but just wherever we're at in that process, it could be determined by age or not. But those three things, right? The mentor that's further along the peer, and then the mentee, that's even a word. I think that is actually correct. Mentor and mentee. Michael. I do believe that is correct. Not to be confused with manatee. That's so, very easy. Which isn't pretty dope see creature, by the way. Yeah. Hand me that. I gotta shuffle it up. You're gonna have to pull a card for me. One of those things was when asked, I was like, I can answer the two of those, but the third one I can't, which was the wiser, the further along. And then I thought about it, and I was like, and I prayed about it, and I was like, why? I have two people that come to mind, right away. Yep. And I haven't asked either one of them. So all I did was ask. And it was like, of course, I'll be that for you. And they're gonna do it to get things also out of that connection. So it's not about transactions. It's about choosing who we connect with. And then holding each other accountable, which I think we find easier when we don't like things. We're like, well, what are you doing? So being, you know, also having grace and being patient, but to lead with our example, and to ask, you know, hey man, like, I don't know, I don't know, like this entrepreneur stuff, I don't know how to scale this company. Without losing the culture that I'm trying to build, I'm not trying, that I am building. Words matter, the culture that I've built in building in blue bearing. And it's people, it's people. And that is really, really hard to scale. As you know, and I think you do talk about that in the book. - You have to do it slowly. - Yeah, slowly, what did you, oh man, there's a whole section that I wrote that I was like, I was writing down the whole thing. And I was like, no, I'm just gonna highlight the whole page and a half. And it talks about higher slowly, fire quickly. - Yeah. - And man, that's, - It applies to personal life too. - Yep. - It really does. - And it's one of those things where people may be in your life for a season for a part of it. And they show you at some point, or maybe you've now gained a new perspective of like, this is not a relationship that needs to move forward in the next season. - And seasons are okay. I think that's one thing. I didn't realize that, I guess, until a little bit later in life, everybody's life has seasons to include your own. It's okay if seasons of life shift apart and then come back. - What a boring life if it didn't. - Truly. - Like I would agree with you.
But it wouldn't you're in the moment you why isn't you know, you get upset like it's not working It doesn't click as well. It's just happening now. Yeah, you know, like I wasn't ready for what a boring life It would be I don't know if there were no seasons. Yeah, it would let's do it though. All right You get to pull one and now I have to answer These are so good those elements are fantastic. It's the saltiest water. I have no proof of that. That's just what I call it All right, another challenge. I was hoping you'd pull the instructions. How do you use this deck? We didn't pull that out. No, he left it in so another challenge. All right For the viewers that don't know what we're talking what we're doing here This is the drum proof conversation starter stop scrolling and start talking. That's why I love this Because of that statement and it can be done like this, but really watching us. Yeah, but really though The important conversations are with yourself. It can be with a partner. I do plan to make a deck of these four leaders a deck of These four parents same things pull a card and Just start it's it the whole goal is Make movement a positive movement whether it's a reflection whether it's something you know you don't want to do But your life will be better if you do. Yeah, we all have those things for sure. What do you got so? Pick one area of your life finances health a Relationship and run an honest after action review on the last 90 days Dang, dude, so that's tough to do real-time. Obviously. Yeah, but that's like a that's like a reflection thing that you can do in the morning and then start Scribing you know, yeah, and then come back to it. Yep in the afternoon and by by the end of the day that I think that Challenge is yeah is doable. That's tough to do. We'll see you do it in the next minute. I mean, I mean so you'd have to pick one Let's do you pick one life health or finances? Yeah health and Health in the sense of like the last thing I just listened to on on your book was That it didn't I didn't get to the conclusion, but the intestinal thing. Yeah, like the intestinal blockage 10 out of 10 don't recommend Yeah, but but you know in in contrast of obviously not feeling well. Yeah, and then you know How are you managing not knowing exactly what was the root cause? Yeah, it's a durable and affordable. They said it was bad luck really. Yeah, so maybe that's a good one, but getting shot now That's that's also a Boy, but not really trying to well Not looking has a lot of looking for fights. Yeah, I mean for sure No, no, I don't mean that in a way of like the enemy always gets to vote Yeah, and you know, we got a we have to you know try to set the conditions But what we did and what our nation's law enforcement does is dangerous very very dangerous like yeah, this isn't a game Yeah, and I don't want to take away from I don't want people to misunderstand what I just said about It's avoidable what I mean is is like I'm not looking to go where badge I'm not looking to go yep fight overseas in this This conflict or that conflict like I'm done my fight is man. It's everywhere. It starts in here every day I wake up yep with with how I start my day. Yep proactive great versus reactive. Yep reactive looks like first thing I'm doing is oh, what's it on on calendar emails? Instagram, you know, and it's like now I've went into immediate reaction and So that I guess to go back to the challenge. I'll do finances because there's one I can give you because this is something I need help with that Dude, well, yeah, I In the middle of the fade along just kidding sure give you several dollars 38% interest My relationship with money has shifted as I again seasons in life When I was younger in life. I recently read the book the art of spending money and if you haven't read it I would I would recommend it was recommended to me from Huberman. Yeah, you did that recently too about a month ago It just recently came out. Yeah, so there was a little bit of a delay. He seems like such a Grounded such a cool human. We said and be asked for a good amount of time after what was it called artists I think there's mention it and there's another one. I think it's the psychology of spending money whatever it is They're both tied same author And I think this will apply to a lot of people and this is a struggle I've had in my life But it when it comes to purchases where there are people who Want to save because they want to see a number But they don't do anything with the number Yeah, and then there are people who are wildly irresponsible and a lot a lot of times not always what they're looking for is a recognition or Statosphere what they spend and not telling people how to live their life But it was a fascinating, you know, it was a very reflective book because a lot of it was back to you and it would say things like a Rolex and a Time X They tell the same time if you are in an economic place and you legitimately want to invest in Rolex That's great because they have appreciated over time But if you want to buy a Rolex because you want to be seen wearing a Rolex Don't confuse the difference in that head same with tattoos status versus utility I don't know if there's any utility to tattoos other than being identified but when it works to the to the point though It's like to that point like what are you going to you know take the Rolex into the grave with you like just same with the tattoos like it talks a lot about that To experiential versus an item or an object. Yeah, which I think is huge So something that you can pass down yep, absolutely if economically like you have you're in a place to do it and memories I think are the most memorable or the valuable thing that you can pass down. So it talks a lot about them Yeah, so financially I am Constantly and I think a lot of people are but I'm asking myself now much more intentionally over the last 90 days to use that as an example What do I want from money? What is money me and I'll ask myself at any level of purchase? Is this a status or a utility? And if it's truly a utility, let's look for the most economically efficient way to get this done So I can have more money to do things with experiences and it asks is your desire to spend money? Is this coming internally or externally which by you externally would largely come back to the status internally? Being able to pass something down the experiential stuff. So for the last 90 days I have been Pretty heavily looking at that and it's interesting because you do feel the tug of You know, I remember when I was younger. Oh wouldn't it be awesome if I had that super truck It would be so stoked if I had that truck and I get so much more attention You get it and like nobody gives a shit. Yeah, you know, and you're in an upside down and it $20,000 Because you rolled negative equity in from the previous car deal that you didn't think your way into And in there. Yeah, in a Bragg ball ball of art is full of those 28% interest rates Not that we could buy high luxus, but I would if we could because those things are bad ass You know utility. What did I need? I should have been driving around in a Prius. You know, I know that's hard My wife has one and it's very humbling I redone my step put in that thing, but but for it works for her the utility works for her. Yeah So that works for us because it was something that we could pay off. Yep, and we got Blindsided by a drunk driver and all the irony you know being a very unsuccessful drunk. I've driven drunk several times and been arrested for it. Yeah, and It was very ironic that that happened in my sobriety and it was this challenge of like rounding that corner And I'm gonna rip this person's head off because my family was in the car Yeah, and it wasn't just a little science-wise. I mean it told our expedition. Yeah, and I say all that because Because we had focused on utility the the exhibition was very appropriate at that phase in our life or leading up to that, but then we realized why would we Let's just get out from underneath it. They didn't give us what we owed You know just because that's how the world turns you know based on debt Yeah, you know and and credit. Yeah, and it's like this cyclical thing and it's It's in a day we could have been like well, let's just put that into a newer vehicle and like well No, we actually don't need that because I have four children three of them are adults and They all have their own cars that are paid for and that's a blessing their colleges They didn't they didn't occur when he debt in college Huge huge two of them graduated college. I'm just amazing and It is man, and that's something that we've been able to help create in their in their development their growth of them being very pro-active with looking for for money that's out there grants and scholarships and this and that and That's been and obviously the military service stuff has been huge while I was still active my my son was able to apply for even though I didn't go to Florida school systems because I joined the military from Florida. That was my state of Residence, you know through through my military service because that's where I signed up and I never changed it Which which came back to I mean I didn't pay state taxes the whole time slightly beneficial, but I didn't have to live there so But he was able to apply for all the Florida like academic scholarships as if he was an in-state student and then was able to graduate from Florida state in like three years So he took a year of college that he got as a senior in high school in North Carolina and then They accepted all of it and he graduated in less than I think three years with a degree in digital media production and Same with my daughter, but my daughter. I was retired. So I had the the VA, you know benefits and the they all had a year of my GI Bill and She's saving it for our masters or for she's actually applying for a PA program So a med a med route and she's her bachelor's in psychology But she graduated at 20 years old without any debt and my
point is is that because you talk about that in the book too and I think it's wonderful to be said is like actually wrote a note on that was like it's this how criminal that is. I know you didn't touch on it at all, but like, no, it violates any other lending standard and it can't be, there's no way to shake it. You'll carry that 20, 30, 40 years down in your life. It's unlike any other lending model. If violates every fair lending standard, and it's almost unlimited, another great question from that book is how much is enough, and for a lot of people, and I think for myself and I still struggle with this, the answer is just more, but more to do, more to just sit in an account so you can look at it and lower it over it and be, to me, I've identified enough to have reduced stress so you know your bills are going to be covered, and often sometimes people say I have a 90 day fund, whatever you're 91, 20, 20, 365, I don't care whatever it is. I've ever looked at Ramsey, Dave Ramsey's like, you've got a bunch of structures, baby steps and then having the expenses, like six months of expenses of keeping the lights on. For some people that actually might not be enough, they might want a year, but I'm just saying if that's your thing, once you get to that, I think it's a really important question to answer for yourself, what is it that you are looking for, and I've identified for myself that once you get to that point where you have that buffer, I think the value of money is to buy time with the people I care about, to do things that we will be talking about for years to come, or when I'm gone. Yeah, yes, because when we go, so I've success to me looks like three things, at the end of my life, sorry if you heard me say this, but I'm saying it again, and at the end of my life who is there to celebrate that, and even take that back to even more of like a very precise moment, when I walk, when we finish this, and I walk outside to call Erica and say, hey, you guys react, you know, she doesn't answer, why, what have I done to make her not want to answer the phone? I'm not saying she might be busy, but I'm saying like if I walk to the car and she's not in there, and something I'm doing is the reason why, like it's not for me, because at the end of my life, who do I want to be there to celebrate my life that could be tomorrow? But I don't live in this like live every day, Peter Pan, I used to, I'm a real, I'm a real, no, I'll never grow up, you know, that kind of thing, you know, bangering and all that. So anything that gets in the way of those people not being in that room to celebrate and to remember, to remember our lives together, like it's not for me. So that's not success. So anything that gets in the way of those things is violating this code that I have now. And then when I do pass and I go to heaven, because that's where I'm going, when I talk to Jesus, he's going to look at me and be like, we got a lot of talk about, it's on, like let's talk about it. And at the end of that, he goes, welcome in, good and faithful servant. So anything that gets in the way of that is not for me. And then the next, the last one would be the treasures that I build up in heaven is the work that I do from now until then to help be that example to be a light for others. A light on top of the hill cannot be hidden. And there's a difference between being a quiet professional and a silent, and that's been a real call in my heart this year, especially just learning, learning about what that means and, you know, how does your old unit feel about that? You guys, you guys, you guys rolling in hundreds, if not thousands of people into you guys. There is, there is more information out there about the community that I came from. I don't know if it's a cultural thing. And again, I feel lucky that I got to work at least in the generation that I was in, that I got to work with guys from your command. Again, 99.85% exactly the same amount. The communities are defined by their similarities, not their differences. But he thinks that we hate each other and maybe that was pre-9/11, there was a lot of fighting because there wasn't anything going on and it was a budget issue. But in my experience, high fives all around. So in close contact with some of the guys that I was met with a squadron. I don't know if you know this. Does he know Tom? Indirectly, indirectly, he is one of my main mentors. So I don't know if you know this though. There's a couple of seal books out there. I'm reading one right now. I don't, I mean, I wouldn't want to class it. I tried not to write like a seal book as you know. Can I mention one thing though? Yeah. I thought it was really, it's a wonderful book. No, don't take that any other way. There's a chapter where you're like, hey, if you're here to learn about buds and all that or who's going to carry the boats and all that, like this isn't where you need to be. And everything after that is talking about like the process, but it's to get to a point. Yeah. And in Bud. So I just thought that was funny. So I wanted to product you a little bit. But yeah. There are. I don't talk about buds. I talked about white people quitting buds. Ah. Yeah. Yeah. So then the stories connect to the quit, right? Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. Well, my theory is so much money has been spent. I stand corrected. The 15% of people that make it through. To me, the juice is why did all these people give up what the, why did 85% of the people ring that bell? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's what you did. Well, I had to use that as the example because that's where I started having an understanding of the biggest impediment people put in front of them. Yeah. But there are a lot of books. There's a lot of TV shows. There's a lot of movies. Let's not pretend that there's not a TV show called The Unit, right? Which is the first time I ever heard about The Unit was inside Delta Force, the book. Yeah. And then the show, which was the, the guy that wrote that book, which is, it was a documentary. So we know we can say, because you were there, that everything that happened in that TV show is exactly like it was for real. Well, it's fairly cool. Well, it gets a little wild there towards the later seasons, but you guys again, wrapping in that place, see these scars on my hands, man, bleeding. There are a lot, there's less out there. And it seems as if it correct me if I'm wrong. There is more of a stigma for guys leaving that place and being a little bit more consumer facing. So how does that, how do you feel about wanting to be a lighthouse for people? How has the response been from the place that you left? Has it been a challenge? Well, and now I'm going to, I'll address this too, because I did not leave the way that I wanted to. Yeah. I think that's not statistically announced, I think, but there's some massive character defects that had it not happened the way it did. I do want to touch on that, but I do want to talk about one thing that I think, that my observation the past four and a half years, and even before I got out, was we, my former job that I did, like we don't do a very good job, and it was getting better with transition. Like, how are we focusing truly on the soldier or the service member transitioning to the next thing? Versus just saying, alright, you can go out, you can have some time to go, just rediscover yourself or whatever, or helping kind of create an environment, which they're doing, and I got to experience that firsthand, which was awesome. But one of the big things that is the, I think you guys, and this is an observation because I don't know the actual, like, truth with it is, and this is from other people that I've talked to you, like you guys get experienced, you get to experience entrepreneurship and mentorship from some of those guys more than we do, I think, earlier on. And working with, doing, you know, a building trip, and then there's, you know, we're going to bring in these, you know, the Patriots, you know, the coaches, and all these things, like, we don't do that, and it's, and I don't think it's not because, like, you guys are doing it for glory or for self success, and all that, for the individual, it's truly a part, I think, a part of, like, this is going to end. But if we can expose our, our operators to, you know, these people earlier, it might help set them up in some way. That's the only thing that I've seen being the big difference, because we're the same people, like, it's just, you join the Navy and I join the Army. Yes. And we ended up largely at the same places in, in, in different by, you know, inception documents in their metals and all of that stuff, but other than that, again, 99.8% the same, like cut from the same cloth, man, 100%, I have, there's not a single seal team six guy that I've met that I've, that I haven't been like, man, that's, that's a really, it seems like a really good person. That's been through a lot that's, that's also come out on the other side, and that's very limited in my experience, but I can only speak from my experience when I start to speak from, you know, absolutes and never's, and that's when things get really sideways for me. And how does your old command look at guys coming out and being a little bit more public facing? There's, there's just more seals out there than X, X, X, X, X.
seals out there than X-CAD guys. If you're an officer, I don't know. Because if you are an officer and you, in the thing about being an officer there, you may have retired as an officer there, but there's probably a chance if you're a high-ranking officer that was a journey along, that was a stop along the way for sure. So those guys, I see those high-ranking generals that talk about it and I don't think there's a, and no one bats and I had it. What about the good, the boys that are the 10 to 15 years? So a mentor said this to me while I was in and he had served, I don't know, 20 plus years there. And it was very humbling to hear him say this, while I was still there, still thinking I had more to prove and in all these things and, but also like, what do I should medically retire, I don't know. And then, you know, he said this to me and I was just like, this is a guy that you couldn't get to stop being a troop storm major. He did like four years and had like three, three, three touch long in the two. Yeah, it also prevents anybody else from being a troop sergeant major. But it was one of those opportunities and he was the right guy, man. And, you know, it's, he said this to me, he was like, it's like, it's like having a divorce with a restraining order. And, you know, he doesn't talk about that place. He's not in the public eye. He does things very quietly and that's, that's who he is. And not everybody is him, but even someone like that saying that to me was very eye opening. And I don't think the higher up, the highest people in the unit, the highest ranking, whoever truly understand that, they may say it because they don't have to turn their badge in. They can come and go as they please. And I'm not looking to go back there. Not because they do, they do an annual thing and then there's this, well, I don't know what the status is of where, where I stand there. I, people told me that I was fired. No, I'll tell you this right now, no one looked me in the face and said, Kyle, you're fired. But that doesn't, that doesn't matter. The point is, is that I left in a way, I had been arrested three times since 2016. All alcohol related. One was at a hotel, one year after the radicine. And I talked about this in pretty high level detail a little bit on Sean Ryan show that I did years ago, but more recently with Mike Ritland, which is a phenomenal dude. And, and then coming back from that, like, abstaining from alcohol for everybody else, intensive inpatient, took my belt, my shoelaces, locked doors locked behind me. I viewed it as punishment. I'm doing my time. So I can go back to being operational. And that happened two more times. The second time was a DUI. I was a T.O. I made it. I made it. I mean, it's team leader team leader. Yeah. So I, and it was early, you know, I'd been maybe seven, eight years in the, in the squadron. What squadron were you with? B. Okay. And I was going to medically retire. This was 2018, 2019. It was my last deployment to Iraq and Syria. And I was really trying to focus on my health and my marriage and all the damage I had done. And I was a two I see at ATO, assistant team leader. And I told them, well, there was one specific op that I had never experienced this, this emotion on and off. And it was a helo crash that I thought was, we all thought was it got shot down just based on how violent it was and why it happened. But it was essentially a brownout, a loss of essay. And I was running towards the building because up front, you know, as the two I see. And then I hear this and I look back and it's this huge brownout flames and rotors flying everywhere. And I immediately start, I was, we were the closest team, immediately started running towards the brownout and the crash site. And as I'm going through this huge, it felt like an eternity. This huge brownout cloud, dust cloud. I'm just thinking, oh my God, I'm going to seal my friends dead. And it was the first time I had felt that. And it didn't stop me. But it, it definitely stuck with me after that. I came back from that trip. It was a long mission, man, because we were not going to let any, any ounce of that aircraft get be used against us. Yeah. Was it a 60 or a 60? Yeah. The pilot was, was died on impact and the left seat pilot. And the whole like half of the front glass was smashed in. Yeah. But you know, so now it's triage and get like, get everybody away from this board explodes. And then we're out there for probably two, three days, man, just trying to, for one, you know, fight ISIS, which is who you fought basically in 2005, six with the unit, the same people, different technology advancements, tactics, all the things, but the same drive, the same, yeah, same belief systems. Yeah. The most hardened fighters I've ever fought. And, you know, so it, uh, coming back from that, like, there was a couple of things that happened. And I was just like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. And there was an internal conversation. And then I remember that moment when that motion hit you for the first time, it was running through the cloud. I didn't, I didn't think that I was like, oh, I don't know if I do this. It was just like, whoa. And then just carry on. But then coming back, I was so angry about a couple of the things that happened about how we X filled, like how a few things, it was, I was like, guys, we cannot like do more harm here. It's already bad enough. Like, why are we not considering this, this, and this? Like that crew didn't need to fly back with the body. We could have X filled the operators that were injured with the body of the pilot. We didn't live with them every day, work with them all the time. We do rotations as they rotate it in. And it just, I was, I was flipping tables, man in the AAR and, um, projecting too. But, um, I called Erica and just told her, I was like, I don't know if I can keep doing this, babe. And I talked to my therapist. I called him. He worked for the unit. God bless him. But I asked him a very direct question. Am I doing more harm than good by staying here in this environment? And he knew the answer, but at the end of the day, he turned it back on me like a good therapist was. He didn't give it to you, even if he knows. No, no, you have to realize that on your own. Exactly. I wanted him to tell me, yes, you are, Kyle. He had so many years with him. But it was so, every time I met with him, it was in the beginning, he was very like, I'm told to. You need to do this, Kyle. If you want to stay operational, you need to do this. Okay. So I'd go in there and just be like, yeah, you know, I see like the phones, I see the computers. I'm like, nah, I ain't talking about anything. Because it's that work. And, um, you know, he told me, you know, you've expressed to me that your goal is to become a team leader in this unit. So if your goal is that, then the answer that question, I think you already know. I'm like, oh, okay. So I call the chaplain though after that. I wasn't just going to let it go. And I talked to the chaplain because I've been doing a lot of intensive marital therapy in sessions with them in Erica. And they're wonderful, runnable resource. Wherever you're at with faith or not, they are a great resource. That's 100% confidential. Unless it's a harm for yourself or others, like it stays with the same criteria for psychologist, counselor, stuff as well to a therapist. Unless they were for the command. Really? There's a, there's, they're they're a protected man. So I wouldn't say shit to them either. Yeah. Yeah. So what's an interesting carve out? Yeah. That is unfair to the person sitting there talking to them. Yeah. And it keeps it in house to them. So it's like one of these things where you could go out in the military system. Now it's on your very openly on your record, even though it's your mental health record. It's still, I don't want to turn this into like, I just think there's there's, you only get what you give. And if I was more open than honest, like that trip coming back, you know, we do those post deployment health surveys and you lie on every single one of them. Of course. You're like, did you, do you want to get nightmares? Do you, do you, um, um, did you experience this sleeping? Nope. Yeah. Do you have, like was, malignant thoughts that you cannot, you know, get out of your head? Do you feel less happiness? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I want to go on vacation. No, I'm, I'm good. But this one I actually answered honestly. And they looked at me and they were like, how? No, we're gonna, we're gonna take this serious, but we need you to, to, to maybe relook at this. And I was like, no, like that's the honest answers. Yeah. Like I've been very vocal with my, my, uh, recovery, even at a time where, where, and that's why I never took my own life is because I was not above it. It was circumstantial, but it was, I never closed the door for help. You know, and I think the Radisson Blue November 20th, 2015 was like the, the sparking event that everything else in my life became more and manageable. And it's very clear looking back now, but through that process, like you, you could have told me anything, man.
And if I wasn't ready to receive it, I'm gonna be like, okay, yeah, yeah, just give me my pills and shut up. Like, the psychiatrist said this. He's like, Kyle, you need, he said, he said, you've had Delta and you need Disney. He's like, you don't need, you don't need a, this is not helping you. It's just a matter of time before this has become catastrophic. And this is years into like, very publicly, you know, making mistakes when I couldn't hide from him anymore, suffering and silence. And if you can perform at a performance-based organization, there's not a policy on the wall for that person. So there's people that despise me because of that. I could have been fired so many times over because of the alcohol related incidents, but you know, I fast forward to, I didn't medically retire. I did make the choice to that my troop leadership fully supported it. And after that trip, they were gonna let me take the time to go start that process. And you know, that was, excuse me, I was like at 17, 18 years in. And, but before that trip finished, so manning, obviously manning, right? It's always the big, big talk, you know, looking at all the things and assessing who's, who's going where and all these things. And my TL, my team leader got tasked with taking another position before he finished his time because they needed that, that was a higher priority. On the bigger picture. So they looked at me and said, we'd like to offer you the team if you, if you want to take it. I know that you want to make the retire, but this, if you do this over the next two years, man, like we'll, we'll still support you to do the, the medical retirement. And I, dude, I was like, let me talk to Erica, but there was no real conversation. Yeah, like I was like, I got chills because that's all I've ever wanted to do. Or at least thought at the season in my life. And to be offered that, man, well, it was such a rewarding feeling knowing that, especially from where I'd come from in the, in the recovery. I don't know if it was like, I like digging holes or jumping in, but, or climbing out, man, but I was like, I'm done digging holes, man. This is going to help me finish this career, the way that, you know, the way that I intended, you know, and I made it a year into my TL time, and I started drinking again, and moved out, left Erica again, and I got that, that second alcalaurate incident. So this time, they looked at me and said, all right, we're going to move you to J-sock as your punishment. I was like a staff job. Yeah, yeah, working in like, on the joc floor and stuff, and which is really a really cool broadening experience. And it, and it really really did, which it wasn't just punishment. It was actually like, man, this, this guy is running in the red. Like, but, but we see something in him. Yeah. So let's give him this time, and it's also punishment. Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's like, you made this mistake. Here's, there's consequences. Yeah, they intended it as such too. They probably intended it as a broadening professional development, and then also as punishment. Which I got to do and experience a lot of things that I wouldn't have, and, but, and one of the big things that did happen was I, I, I was dealing with migraines every, like, chronically, to where I was prescribed in an auto injection every month, I would have to take it to try to prevent, because they were so frequent. But you couple that with all the chronic pain, and then the nerve, what I thought was shoulder impagements from just torn legrooms and rotator cuffs and stuff. Like, it was actually nerve and nerve damage from my cervical spine, radiate, cervical radiculopathy. So I, I couldn't feel my hands the way that I used to. I couldn't, a lot of things were, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't remember where I was at sometimes. I'd pull over and be like, where am I going? You know, and, oh, it's okay, it's just a part of the job. And so this time of over at JSOC, I started getting that, really assessed, I went to NICO. - Same. - Yeah, and, and it was wonderful. But one of the things they did tell me was the neurosurgeon was like, and he was my third consult surgery wise here, 'cause you could see the inflammation up and down my spinal cord of how it was impinging at that C6, C7 level. And the C5, C6, so just above it. But that was really where it was focused and it was causing inflammation up and down my spinal cord, which was probably the root cause of the migraines. And, because they, they tried everything, Botox, or an occipital blocks and all that stuff. And I used to have to take all the abortive meds and all that stuff too, and, but, the third consult, the first consult was an ortho spine at Wormack and he was like, let's do a disreplacement. And he's like showing me the thing, I told this sort of a mic, but, he's like showing me the things. Like, this is what it looks like and then, and he drops it and I was like, next, like no way to hear. I'm not, I was in a place where claustrophobia was starting to become a thing. I had to get all these MRIs and stuff. I was like, what is going on? I've been put in some very small boxes in through our trainings, you know? And it's like, never experienced claustrophobia, but it was very much like manifesting. And, long story short, is that I ended up, you know, getting that last consult with the neurosurgeon up at Wormack. And he was like, how, if you want to be able to, like, play with your youngest daughter, which you got to meet, can, in five, 10 years, like, you need to get this because you have early stages of the symptoms of early stages of cervical myelopathy. And apparently it plateaus and then it just completely falls off to where you're gonna be in a wheelchair. So I was like, okay, let's do it. And I did it, but in the process of that, a couple of things happened. COVID stopped everything. I didn't see another in-person doc for a year. And it was just pain med prescription after pain med, after pain med, to the point where I was just asking for it and not needing it. Initially, it was like, this is what it feels like to not be in chronic pain, not just from this, but the lower extremities and everything, the back. But I realized, 'cause I think they were gonna give me an opportunity to come back. I would probably have started as a 2IC and then work my way back up. And this is me speaking from my own personal opinion on that. I don't know, but I did go back. I did, I think, five months there. But part of that was recovery from the fusion on my C67. But through that recovery, I called my squadron CSM and I was like, hey, I'm not gonna come back to the squadron. If you were gonna allow me to, I can't go back to being operational. But I do wanna continue to serve in this unit. If there's something else that you think I can do, I will absolutely do it. And he respected that and he did, they did let me come back and they were gonna have me do the breaching so our major position. And I got so excited about that because one of my other developmental punishments was to be the master breacher for a period when I was sitting out for the squadron. So I was very passionate and I still am, but I just don't deal with explosives anymore for my own personal health. And some new energy, young energy, not new, but leading that charge there from the research and development to all the aspects. It's a very important position in that organization. And I was honored that they would offer that to me. So I did the right seat ride through the breaching course and was around blast for, had been six, seven months probably since I'd been around blast. And I couldn't leave my room. I couldn't leave my room because I had so, the migraines were so bad that I couldn't even like, I had like drape curtains over the lines and stuff. It was so bad. So then I go back to them and I'm like, I can't do that job either. And it was once again, they were like, all right, well, we'll find something that you can sink your teeth into. There's a lot of things that we're doing and changing up and I was like, okay. And it was, and I did those things and nothing, I felt like a jobless operator and just kind of just push for the first time in a long time felt like I was just kind of there. Which is like, I don't know if that place exists for you to feel like you're just there. It's an honor, but it was something that was starting to really consume me and I was letting it start to destroy me. And that led to, I'm gonna put in my retirement paperwork. I just picked up E9 at 19 years and had to decline it to put in the paperwork to retire. Just normal retirement, 20 years. And a year out you do that and I got my retirement orders in July of 2021 and already had lined up some internships in Texas and was like, I'm gonna go reinvent myself at this data science company and this Texas bullion depository. They buy and sell precious metal and they're a vault for precious metal and stuff. I had to line those up.
I was excited about those, and I was given those opportunities, I didn't like line those up myself. It was, there was a lot of things that they were doing would they go back to the transition piece like that are helping guys make that transition. So I, at a year, they let us go out and do that for six months, and you know, July comes around. I get my retirement orders, I'm leaving for Austin, Texas, like July 16th, I think, or just start the internships, and July 8th, I got a DUI, and I didn't tell anybody. I called the lawyer the next morning, because the first two times, the first people I call was my leadership. And this one, I was like, no, I can't, they're going to take my retirement, and I was in self-preservation mode, and I didn't tell anybody. And my lawyer was like, if they don't know, don't tell them. And I'm going to get this thing continued until after your retirement. And I was, he can do that, and he did. But man, that, and then I left a week later for Texas. Now I'm out of sight out of mind, not anywhere close to the command, like on my own. Were you on term to leave at that point? No, it was the year, so once you, and the army does this too, but it's the windows are a little different of when you can do it, through the Army Skill Bridge program. Oh, so you were still active duty, but they were basically giving you time to transition? Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, so that, so basically where the army does this, maybe they've changed it, but like, they don't let guys go and do those internships until the last six months, which, come on man, you got all kinds of things that you can't do until certain points, you can't clear this, you can't get this signature, you can't do that, and that takes you being at your duty station. Yeah. The unit allowed us to do it at a year, and that way we know when we come back after only having that six months left, you could just do all your clearing stuff and then go on. So you're on active duty, and you're on permissive TDI, is what it is. That's, to start pursuing your civilian career, that's fantastic. It is one of the, one of the best things that I think that that's trickled down into the greater military or the army through their skill bridge. To the point where blue bearing, like we're going to become, we've had two, two interns that were younger, transitioning out first in this month, or, you know, and wanting to pursue a career in law enforcement, and we did an official internship with them. It's a wonderful program. But I went down there knowing that I'm hiding into UI, lying by omission, and I'm learning how to do these things, and I'm like, at first I'm like, oh, this is great, I got to become technically literate. I got to, how can I help here, you know, and it's like, well, how about you and you just turn and face each other as you're doing this, you know, they're doing it. Six side by side. Yeah, like, they're just literally, they're working on the same thing towards the same goal. Yeah. And they're like, why haven't we had a successful sprint in like the past, however many, and this is the data science piece of it, because I was like, guys, I'm not learning how to code. Like it's not in my, it's not in my, my, my, wasn't put on earth for this. No, no, so, but I did skill, just like, just like any of us though, like becoming a valued crowded member, and I had to become technically literate in a sense of like, can I keep, can I be a part of this conversation without being lost, like completely lost? So that helped me for a little while in the earlier stages of that internship stuff. But I just started like, this is easy, and they don't really, they're not asking too much of me. So I'd start like working remotely, which is like, why? So with at post-COVID, like that was a big part of every, every company, you know, learning how to do that or being forced to do it, and it became more of a norm, I guess. But that was just an excuse for me to go and party. And I wouldn't just go, because I knew I couldn't be out like at bars and stuff like that, because I would, I was a liability when I drank, and, you know, I had came off of all the prescription meds to all the opioids, and that was, whoo, that's when the drinking really picked up. And then that wasn't enough to replace that, what the opioids were doing. And that's when, you know, I'd say August, September of that of 2021, got exposed at a strict club, because I was at a strict club, just because I was like, I just want to feel good, look at women, like, and not deal with people, and just be very primitive, I guess, you know. And I, but back there and see cocaine, and I never experienced cocaine. And I was, let me see that, and that opened the floodgates for trying to chase that. Like whatever that was, I was like, 30 minutes at a time, I didn't feel anything but good. And it was very short, live, man, because how dangerous any of those illicit substances are, man, like, just with the fentanyl and how they're cutting them, everything with, with fentanyl. And then you think about the opioids, like you're not being prescribed anymore, but you can find them on the, on the black market. The black market side. And what are they? They look like a percussette, they look like a viket in, they look like the same thing, but it's just fentanyl. Like, in pill press and all the things, like, it's so dangerous, man, it's taken so many lives, and it almost took mine. And so I almost died from fentanyl overdose, which I thought was cocaine and, and how heavy were you using? I mean, anytime, so not to make light of this, but Theo Vaughn said something that I really did connect with. And he said, man, I just can't drink anymore, man, because every time, you know, two bottles of beer turns into seven bottles of cocaine. And I was like, I can actually relate to that, because the moment drinking was always this connection of, of being able to let my hair down. And then it was, and then once I got exposed to that cocaine, it was like, let me go find that, the pursuit of it even became this like challenge, like how to find it. And just the places you put yourself to get it. And it was just like, it wasn't daily, but it was the same way with my alcoholism. Like I was a high functioning alcoholic. Like if I had something the next day, I would not show up under the influence. I didn't need to wake up and drink. I didn't need to wake up and use a drug. Is that how you self justified it? That's exactly how I rationalized everything. Up to that point, a lot of things that are like on the surface, people are like, how on the heck do you rationalize those things? And I'm like, well, what they're, I don't know, I did. It's the human condition. But they're hearing you describe as an incredibly accomplished high-level CAG operator who has left the command on a one year, what'd you call it, permissive TDI? It was a six month permissive TDI. So you just can't get paid by those internships. Correct. And focusing on the next, what you're describing. All along hiding into UI. That's what I'm saying. And the behaviors that you're talking about, that people are going to have a tough time aligning those two things. Yeah. Well, I did it. It's not recommended. So don't do it. But there's hope. That's the reason I'm talking. That's going to take this full circle about the public eye, you know, and all these things. The reason I'm in the public is to be a positive meal role model at home, which I am, because I am the same man that's in front of you right now as I am when I go home. And whether I'm training people that takes me away from home, they got the same husband, the same father that's representing and carrying them with, with everywhere I go. It's no longer about what can I do? What can I do? What can I accomplish? Like, it's a, it truly is like service. I mean, I am a servant leader that I'm in service to my wife, my children, and then my community. And those are very, like, some of the gifts that God's given, given me and so many others have to be able to communicate that through teaching, through shooting, moving, communicating, meditating. Do you think you were the only one struggling like that? And I'm not trying to get you to air out anybody from your community. What I can say with 100% certainty, what you are describing, the behaviors, the internal struggle, the addictions. Maybe sight of the house has plenty of people that are struggling with that as well too. What I see though, man, so the answer to your question is suffering and silence, man. Like you're absolutely suffering and silence and comparison is the thief of joy. Like, well, those guys are doing this and that, and they didn't get into who cares. What I care about is what I'm doing with those experiences, given the opportunity I get to, versus I have to, I'm no longer a victim of them in my life. And I was for, and one of my anchoring scriptures is 1 Corinthians 13 11 of the childless ways of thinking and acting have to cease when you become a man. It took me 37 years to become a man. Almost five years of sobriety. At this point today? Yeah. That's awesome, man. Congratulations. Thank you. Four years of fallen Christ, so to me, I've got. I'm very young, you know, but I have a lot of wisdom through experience and it doesn't erase any of those things, but the freedom that I've been able to access through those decisions. Everything I have is anchored on my sobriety. I don't ruminate on being an alcoholic. I will go to an A meeting with you, with anyone that I can help by being there, but I refuse to sit there and say, "I'm Kyle, I'm an alcoholic." Because I'm not. I was. I've been made new and people can say what they want about this, but to be washed in the blood of Christ has given me this opportunity, which is freedom. It's true freedom. And I can describe this as the instinct in the action, the space, is where freedom lies. And you know what else is in there that I'll never rob myself of or let anyone else is peace and joy. It's no longer pleasure, it's joy, like this morning, looking at the sunset, not being able to sleep. I could have been really angry, but it was clear that you should describe though why you can't sleep. We're in a little bit more of the Northern latitude up here. Sun went down last night. It was about 10.30. We were talking on the phone, it was in the night of clock out and you're like, "Man, I don't know what time it is. If I get, it gets like that up here." And then you're like, "It also sunrises around five or so." And it's beautiful. So we have, for the Airbnb, but man, it was just like whatever, okay, I didn't sleep well. What am I going to do? Quit. Or be present, be where my feet are. And I got to have a moment in experience with my wife in the morning as she's doing her reading and her reflection and to share that space with her and the sunrise. It was just such a beautiful thing, and that's one of the reasons why I'm here. And obviously, you're willing to allow me to come on the podcast, and I'm very appreciative for you making this happen. But my point is, is the freedom between the instinct and the action. The instincts are going to come. The intrusive thoughts are going to come. That's why Paul tells us to take every thought captive because it's the hardest thing to do, because they're gracing thousands of miles an hour. But I have somewhere to go with it. And I don't, when I feel something after a thought, okay, feelings don't drive my life anymore. It's just a gauge. It's a blessing. And then my actions, like I don't, things look differently now. I act differently. I think differently. I'm a man. And, you know, but I wasn't back then. I was lost. If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. That's how I've lived my life up to that 37-year-old mark. And it took, like, it took true sobriety, which I learned in the rooms of AA. I did. It led me to a true belief, surrender of a power, a powerlessness. No longer its weakness, it's an asset, turning it into an asset. And then a surrender of that affliction to a higher power and your life. That's the part that people miss. Like, they're like, yes, I'm going to surrender this affliction to that power. But also my life. And that's what changed. And I began to help me see that. And I won't advocate for psychedelics at large, but I began as different. And I've done a lot of different treatment modalities. And the reason that I began was able to be as effective as it was is because of all those things. And being ready to receive, because it doesn't matter what you do. If you're not ready to receive it, you're going to go back to doing those other things. But to come to finish the part that I'm relying by a mission piece was something that had I got in a weight with, I would not be sitting in front of the Andy. There's no way. There's no way. So coming back from all that, having just overdose towards the end of that year, mind you, July went down to, got to the UI July 8th, July 15th, I'm in Texas, August, September, I get exposed to cocaine, very short lived and overdosed. Is it getting Narcan to come back? Yep. And then, which, it was a near death experience, man, I literally saw myself from outside of my body. It coming back and forth, but like what I saw was, I was disgusted with, I looked at myself and I was like, who is this man? I can no longer rationalize acting the ways I was acting. I don't care how skilled I thought I was, like, risk is relative, which I do believe that risk can be mitigated with collective and individual experience. That applied to everything in my life, and that point though, like they circled the wagons again, the unit, and they were like, how, did they know about the overdose? Oh, yeah. I'm assuming that was probably a mandatory report by the police. No, it was just people that I was working with down there, not to try to drop a dime on me. They were just like colonies help. Yeah. And he is. They were doing it in your best interest. So thank you to those guys, man, I love you guys, and I know that I'm not in connected with a lot of the people that I used to be, but I still care about y'all. And I appreciate everything that you guys have done for me and my family, but they circled the wagons again, man, and they were just like, how, what's going on, man, like we've tried so many different things. You've tried so many. You've been very vocal with all these things. We know that you're putting in the work, like what's missing? I was like, I don't know, I have to get sober, and I've never gotten sober for anyone else other than I've never gotten sober for myself. I've abstained for appearances, for perspective or perceptions to go back to doing this job. And I need to retire and wasn't a given. They could have made me, they could have taken all of that right then. And they said, all right, we're going to, we're going to let you carry on with your retirement. I was signing out March, or end of March of '22. And you know, just with did all my clearing and, you know, that did all the mandatory army substance abuse stuff now, that's the thing they no longer let this like go outside of the military channels, they got to go more, or no, got to go more after. And that's what I'm about to say is, so now I'm going through the army substance abuse. And that was, now it's like very military rigid, everything else, it was like the unit trying to find other creative ways to, to get me help, but to, to maybe avoid the, the bigger military record stuff. So, and my, my security clearance, like the personnel security called and said to my direct supervisor, like, we got a flag in Kyle's security clearance. And I'm not there. I'm driving around doing something, I don't know. And, um, my direct supervisor calls me and he's like, how, I, security just called. They said they, this flag for DUI back in July came up and I had an opportunity right then to, to come clean. And I let the pause and then he said, are they talking about the one that you got two years ago? And I was like, oh man, they must be. And I say it in a very, like I'm lying kind of perspective, but I was very deceptive with how I said that. You know, and, um, immediately knew that that was wrong, but hung up the phone and went into straight panic, self preservation mode, but ultimately I, I drove to my direct supervisor's house that, that afternoon, that evening and, uh, and told them I came clean. No, that was, that was a DUI that happened before I went down to Texas and I, I didn't tell you guys about it. And that's that character defect that there was many, but that was one that was still was, was there that had it not happened exactly the way it happened. I wouldn't be here right now because everything would, I would have gotten away with something. I had retired with honor and, and gotten away with something. So what the unit did, they didn't take my retirement. They let me keep my retirement orders intact to sign, to sign out on terminal leave exactly when I was going to already. They, they administratively moved me from the unit to, to use the sock, which is special operations, you know, army special operations command right down the street to retire from there. So I did two months at use the sock and I signed out, um, on terminal leave. And that's how I left the unit. And it's one of those things where my abilities massed a lot of the struggles I was going through. My ability to perform at a very high level at a place where you struggle to be mediocre every day. And my identity was so wrapped up in it. And this is the part where, you know, I don't know if it can't be like, but it can't be the only piece of your identity, or if it's the only thing you have when it goes away, you are absolutely lost and you're never going to replace that. There's nothing else out there like it. I don't think you can operate at those levels without it consuming you to a degree. Yeah. I think not managing that consumption or not being a
aware of it is where it gets very, very dangerous. You know, you say it took you 37 years to become a man and get a handle on it. Let's say that that had happened, let's roll back 15 years before that. You were able to perform, I love the way that you said that perform at a high level to a place where people struggle to be mediocre every day. That is literally the best description I've ever heard of the people that I worked around. - When people say-- - It's so humbling, man. - When people say, "anybody wanna say your career?" I was like, "You don't know the guys I work with." (laughing) And legitimately, it was, but if you would have had that realization and awakening 15 years before, what do you think it would have done to your ability to perform at that place? - Today's episode is brought to you by Element or LMNT, depending on how you would like to say it. First and foremost, go to drinkelementee.com/clearedhot. That's the landing page. When you go there, what you're gonna see is their newest product, which is lemonade plus iced tea. Slightly caffeinated. Let's talk about that here for a second. Electrolites can be the missing link to help you feel and perform your best. And while salt has been misunderstood for decades, so has caffeine. Many of us are overstimulated. Not me, of course, so I would never drink too much coffee, which would result in torched adrenals and wrecked sleep. Like I said, of course, never me. The element, lemonade iced tea, delivers their science-backed electrolyte formulation plus naturally occurring caffeine, 50 milligrams. 50 milligrams, I think, is about a third of a traditional cup of coffee. If you go to and why I recommended going to drinkelementee.com/clearedhot, is you're gonna get a free sample pack. So these are the little satchits that it can come in. I'm looking at it right now. Citrus, raspberry, lemonade, and watermelon. And it'll let you know what you like and maybe what you don't like. The variety is increasing. The flavors are changing, but what hasn't is what they are delivering. I have described this as the old movie Tron, where they put the disc into the water and they drink, and you feel the glow, the blue start to be brighter than it was before. It's basically what it feels like. This saves me every time that I train. It's a daily ritual afterwards. I can absolutely feel the difference and you will too. It helps with hydration. It helps with recovery. It helps me with cognition. All of those things. Again, drinkelementee.com/clearedhot. Check out their new lemonade iced tea, and then you can just go shop to your heart's content. Drinkelementee.com/clearedhot. Back to the show. - You know, I don't think about things like that. I think it's a wonderful question. I used to think about a lot of things if I would have done them differently. But for me, I will answer the question, but my point is, is that I'm not God. So I don't live in the past and try to change anything. - I'm not trying to get you to live in the past. The mind space that I'm thinking of this from, and this is a thought or a question that I don't have the answer to. But it comes down to what is the cost of that occupation? A lot of people the cost expresses itself in the struggles that you were talking about. We both know plenty of friends and peers that have had substance abuse issues, chemical abuse issues, taking their own life, taking their own life. And then a lot of the things that led up to that is well too. And the question, I guess, is it possible to work at that level at those places and not have some of that residual darkness stick to you? - If your identity is anchored in something bigger than you, yes. - Yeah. - And I saw it. - Even beyond the identity piece, what they ask from a time and a change is going to focus. - It's absolutely going to impact and change you. - Yeah. - And there's been guys that are more vocal, Derek Knight leading is one of them that worked there for a long time. Did a lot of really awesome things and was a follower and a believer in God and Christ. But it changed some, and then Tom Spooner's another example of he served there sober. He'd been sober far before he got there. But it still was a massive part of his own recovery and healing, he didn't relapse on it. He didn't compromise the sobriety, but man, it changed every aspect of him. Ask his wife, Laurie. And he talks about it very publicly. So I think the guys that today into the question of, could I, how would it have changed my service there? - Me and do you think he would have been an even better operator? - I think so. - Yeah. - I think so because even though I didn't have the words that to put to my values, my values were the Army values. They were very situational. The words were, but the moral injury that would happen over and over that just compounds and compounds. I was just like, this isn't right. I don't know what's wrong, but I don't feel good about myself. And why? I'm doing what I'm asked to do. I'm seeing the things that I'm being called to be in the environments and intimately taking other human beings lives over and over and it's like, this is my job. Not everybody can do it. It started to become for me about me. I can do it. And that's why the Radisson was such a pivotal point if I, because I've thought about that a lot too, is like, why is that lasted or impacted me so much? It was very different in the sense of like, the biggest thing was, I thought I was better than I was. So I thought I was more capable. And it exposed me because of the team is great. I am okay if I can be a part of that team. It's such an honor and I'm going to serve well and I did. But, and you could trust me. You don't have to think about what I was doing when you went left. I go, right, like you didn't have to think about that. That's the brothers and arms, man. That's the very different than a brotherhood, which we talk about brotherhood a lot. And it's very different. How much are you able to say about the Radisson? I know that there are sensitivities and also, you covered it well on with Sean and Mike. So we don't necessarily need to retread on that. But I also don't want to diminish. I mean, you, that you were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for that, which is the second highest award in the US military. I'll leave it up to you if you want to cover this specifics because I know here's what people want. They want Andy and, they want you to, they want me to share something that they haven't heard. They want us to sit down and they want us to tell war stories. And I am so resoundingly uninterested in that. What I am interested in is what you described, even with somebody like Tom Spooner, where he had sobriety in check, but it changed the person that he was. I am way more interested in talking in the cost of what that job will change in you. 'Cause one of the questions I was gonna ask is, how do we prepare young men and women? No, depending on where you're at inside those organizations, how do you prepare them for that? Can you prepare them from that? But again, I know that the rat is in his pivot. It's interesting to me that you said, though, pivot will for you because of the individual versus the team setting. I will let you describe that situation to whatever degree you want. I will say that though you did a, with Sean and Mike Ritlin, if people want to go get, they want to do a deep dive into that. I think it's been told well. I'd rather talk about the cost associated with it. Even when I talk about it, it's to get to the cost. But not just to leave it at the cost. It's to leave people with hope. That's going back to this higher mission, this new mission of being a positive male role model for our nation's youth, the next service members, the current ones. The guys that are older than me, like it's being an example with my actions and then words. So finding the words to share, putting words to my values and not violating those. Because integrity is not, is not situational. But if you the, and that's the human nature side of this is like, we do things and then it impacts us and we can't make sense of it, but then we keep doing them some. And then we expect why we're surprised why it's impacting us in a deeper way now, or a more aggressive way. And then we try to blame something else. I blame my wife. She's a problem. This, the ratisan, for one, I think this takes a kind of full circle back to the, this, the delegation of tasks, the empowerment, the one-up, two-down thing. Very clear, I was in the right place at the right time. And I am absolutely the right person because of those organizations that I work for. And this inherent nature to protect. It's inside of all of us. And to run towards the sound of the guns. And, and all the things I had done up to that point prepared me for being in the right place at the right time. And moving to the sounds of gunfire based on painting a picture real time and what it really was. And this is why I'm so passionate. Our vertical as a company, a training company, is active attack, active shooter response training because this was a terrorist planned hit attack. Excuse me, but it was an active attack. It was an active shooter. And it was just, I was on a deployment, wearing a suit to an embassy, to the US Embassy, maintaining a relationship so we can hand it off to you. You guys, your former. - Oh really? - Yeah. So we could go after that, by the way. - Thank you for that, by the way.
- Welcome. - You could jump, flicking the booger. - And it's not that there wasn't work to do there. There was so much work from a counter-terrorism perspective because of Al Qaeda, AQIM, ISIS built back in there, but-- - We've went after-- - Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, my goodness. There are deep, deep pockets in all places. - So this attack though, I was lost, man. I didn't want to be there. I was like, my team is going after ISIS. I had just spent a couple months, kind of no notice going after ISIS that year. And I was like, let's go. But then I got told, ball and told, like, we need you to do this, this one. And I wasn't supposed to be doing it. Someone else was and they looked at their leadership and said, I don't feel comfortable wearing a suit and talking to the interagency folks and stuff. And I was like, what do you mean? And either way, when that call happened in the morning, it was really early in the morning. I got a phone call from someone that worked at the embassy about an active attack. And I was in country for three weeks. I didn't even know a toy was freaking up, man. So trying to figure out and party in the whole time. I showed up and here's your Ninja Turtle costume. You're gonna be Michelangelo. And I was like, I love Michelangelo. (laughing) How about you? And it was just like, welcome. This is what this trips, vespers and cocktail hours and do to-do's and they're like, all these things. And I was like, OK, I can do that. Just belligerent, though, and blackout getting blackout drunk. And it just very lawless, too. And in that environment of this false sense of security and freedom to maneuver in the city of Bamako, Mali. And ignorance is bliss until it isn't. And when that call happened, I was like, this is why I'm here. So there was no light. It was easy for me to grab my stuff because it was already packed. I was like, let's go. I want you to get me out of here. I want to go be with my team. And our stuff's always packed. Regardless of the mission, our stuff's always packed. So everything that that unit had done or the infantry and seven special forces group and the special forces training and the missions I did with them, everything prepared me to become, to be the protector, to move to the sounds of gun fire, to not ask for permission. I didn't ask a single person if I could go in that hotel. Did I think I had the authority to? I didn't care. I was in the right place at the right time. And I knew that my unit would back me. There wasn't a doubt in my mind. Not even a split second of doubt. I didn't have to ask them, I just moved. There was no time. It was inherently time-sensitive. And that's what the unit does in SEAL Team 6 does. And that's why that organization exists. Those organizations exist. And we kind of lose sight of that sometimes. But we were reminded of it a lot of times, too. But I went into this with this-- what's the house of rescue, man? Let me paint the picture. Boom. Got my first point. That's my start point. Got a number for American in the room on fire. Let's go. To say for our innocent life. And could care less where the shooters were. Little different than as I've learned an appropriate active threat response, direct to the threat. But I applied what I knew up to that point. And I was like, well, speed, surprise, bounce of action, surprise being the most important. They have the upper hand. They have the high ground. They have momentum, time. I need to reduce them on a time. But I also don't know where they are. This is a very confusing hotel. And so I used the side entrance and started clearing, realized that, man, this sucks. This sucks. I love CQB, man, operationally training for. I love it. Not by your onesies. No, but I wasn't by myself. So that's the thing is I want people to be very clear. I said this on my show, too. In my positions past had former relationship with warriors in that country, because we have to. It's about survival. We break bread together, do a lot of drinking together, and occasionally train together. So one of the things the first couple of weeks, I was like, hey, guys, there's a range that we, I got all kinds of ammo. Y'all want to go shoot. So just starting to build rapport again with those guys. And there was two more sock guys in the country doing a different mission. And not a kinetic thing, more of like an information thing. And then the regional security officers, the State Department's law enforcement, they're the ones that should have the ins and outs of any hotels that we put TDY personnel into, as a part of the US embassy mission. But it was easy, rally on me. But I was the closest to the hotel. They rallied on me. I'm going to check on my next-door neighbor. And that's where I got my first start point. They were gathering. Those other guys are gathering information because they're in country for a lot longer than me. I mean, the State Department guys live there for years. The Marsox dudes rotate in there every year for six months at a time. So they have built a ton of rapport based on their mission. But we'd never work together in CQB and none of that. And I was just like, no, force multiply. That's what build a team on the fly. And I think doing those small unit exchanges, I tell this to law enforcement. I'm like a true tactician. If one lets the situation mission environment tell them the tacting technique to use as the situations evolving. You won't see it if you're so focused on here. But the force multiplication being special forces guy, training partner forces, and all the small unit exchanges I've done with the other tier-1 units across the world. In the unit, like, all those things were preparing me for this moment. And how long would you say from when the event kicked off to when you made entry? How much time it is? Maybe 45 minutes. And it's probably three quarters of a mile from where I lived. So, and that's the part that ate me up. Man, like, I felt like I could have got in a little sooner. And I could have saved one more person. But, you know, I let that, I let a lot of things, I didn't let anything consume me. It did consume me. Like, I didn't get a chance to prepare my mind about the spirit for the mission, for violence. I'm a very violent person or can be. It's controlled now. Think of meekness as harness power. That's what Christ was, and that's what I want to be. And it's power under control. I'm capable of extreme violence. I choose peace. And the only way I say that is if I keep sharpening those skills, like we talk with Jiu-Jitsu, like getting back into that, and something I could do with my daughter, and all these things, like the shooting piece, I have not let the gas off. I'm a better shooter now than I've ever been. And that's huge, 'cause I have to pay for every round I shoot. Yeah, like it's, it is, it is expensive. But it's worth it, because-- It's a different light item. And it's, I'm not doing it to show off. I'm doing it to be a consummate professional. All those things, the ethos, the pursuit of excellence that I was, that was ingrained in me through those cultures or those environments, specifically at the unit, is what I'm trying to do and what I'm doing with my, with Blue Baron, with the training stuff. But I did not get a chance to, and this is why, like, people don't understand, and you talk about this in the book. But like, the excruciating level of detail of planning that we do, or that my former unit I was in did, was earth shattering. SF, absolutely, military decision-making process. The MDP process, it's an awesome, like, the ODA, how it's constructed is just such a capable force, multiplying force that you could put down anywhere. But then the unit is just like the excruciating level of details and planning and contingency plans and rehearsals is, was mind blowing to me. - Plus the staff to support all that, yeah. And then you got people out there building freaking mockups and you're waiting, and not waiting, when you get to that point of rehearsals, it's already built. - Yeah. - And it's not like, oh, look at us, we're pampered. No, we are good stewards of every resource that this government gives us, or my former self. And that's what people don't understand. We pick up every round we shoot, every brass casing, and we pick up, like, it's a lot, but we're good stewards of it, man, and resource appropriately. But in this case, like, I did not get to plan for this. I did not get to practice any contingencies rehearsals with my ad hoc team. It's building a team on the fly and reacting. And that's what it was reacting and trying to take back control of what I could with my presence and being hard to stay and hard to kill. Like, I can't save anybody from this threshold, man. I gotta get in the room. And I'll still have to breach the door. And I gotta be the point man. And, you know, not all the time. My point is that having never been trained with those guys, it was very pick up basketball. - Yeah, exactly. Awesome dudes, love those guys. - Yeah. - And I could not have been it. We couldn't have done what we did. Had we all not been the right people. But it was not a solo op. What's being misconstrued across the world is that this was a solo hostage rescue. And I was deployed by myself. And that really comes into play after. 'Cause I suffered in silence by myself. And it, you know, the actions on, long stay of my life, saw things that I hadn't, I don't know. I didn't know why they impacted
to me, but dressed like you are death, it was new. I had an experience that those environments, there's kind of a ritual, even like you're talking about at those units. I always just to put my gear on the same way and then the same order and I would take it off the same way as a process and care for my gear. I rode my gun the exact same way. The magazines are always, I know, every ounce of my gear and it helped me, I guess, using the analogy of packing a parachute, it helps you pack your mind. Yeah. That would be a process of visualization as you're doing it. I've never been exposed to what you're talking about. That is fascinating. Think about the unknown floor plan. Even that you want to get me excited, give me a team of us and give us a target that's set up, role players or paper, I don't care. Unknown floor plan, no intel, other than the mission, the why? Why are we going into this building and structure? Has to be answered. And then we can adjust our tactics appropriately, but we just, we pivot based on simplifying the chaos because of the fight fight or freeze response to survive, works the backbrain. The backbrain shuts down the front and this is me like, primitively talking about it. But to do one of those three things, that's why little things become harder. That's why you get tunnel visioned. That's why you can't hear or you can't speak the way you normally do. You get clumsy. You don't see things the way that they could be seen. But what happens through experience, through exposure, through good training and operational challenges, it becomes a problem solving. The back of the brain does no longer shuts down the front. Everything slows down and you start to be like, do, do, do, do problem solving. And people are like, how do you see so much? I'm like, because I know what to look for. I know how to safeguard my bandwidth in this space. I'm not looking at people's eyes. No, you know, because they're super deceiving into the puzzle mask. I'm looking at yours right now. And I'm like, what is he looking at? No one stands. So something at the ends of your hands can kill you right away. I can say I've never once looked at a target's eyes. No. And so to this day, I catch myself, it's hands first on any unknown area that I'm always, it's always hands. I tell people two things in a course with us. Like in any three day experience with us, man, like we want you to walk away every day with a tangible thing to take away. And we write it down. We don't leave until we capture that thing. We hope you get to that thing. But from that day, so by the end of the training, three days is where our course is, you have three things and probably a few more, but written. And we compile all this with instructor feedback, your scores on certain, scoreable events. And then we send it to you. And because there's so many things that that you can work on, but you don't know if you don't know where to start. Like we just try to simplify the common, the common threads talking about what unites us first divides us. I'm not spending time talking about, why don't you pan or pie across this door or that? And it's like, what's the reason I'm going in here? I've already answered, you're here for a reason to safeguard an innocent life. Do you think you can do that from inside the room or outside? Maybe. Yeah. But the party life scale in this, in an active attack is innocent civilians. Number one, first responders, number two, and then offenders, attackers. So in that situation, the answer to the question is yes, like the party life scales intact, their lives are more important than yours. And that's why I know how to address your situation, your dynamic, and you're going in. Yeah. Well, and the whole dynamic versus deliberate thing, it bothers me because people look, like they've now, and this is something that I was taught to you. It's not like, I've just, in reflection, I've been like, man, I'll see you be as dynamic. It's just how dynamic is the environment? You do the same shit, just have all deliberate. If you're being honest to yourself, because deliberate doesn't mean slow. Deliberate means intentional. It means predictable. It means in control of the throttle. Yeah. So it's the same stuff applied generally faster. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And because in lieu of cover or even concealment of these drywall walls that were hiding behind doing all these things, the enemy doesn't have to discriminate. They can shoot through those. And maybe you just haven't been challenged yet. And you're like, we have to do this. When someone tells me, a tactical team tells me, we have to do this a certain way. I'm like, guys, you don't have to do anything. What's the mission? That's what you have. What's the no-fail mission? And what's happening across our country is that you have SWAT teams. And this is a broad statement that are being challenged in their operational environments with high-risk search warrants and arrest warrants. And then an occasional domestic that turns into a hostage situation that negotiations fail, they do across the century. But they don't train. They don't train to the no-fail mission. They train to the operational mission because they're more operational than they are training. Whereas we were more training than operational for sure. Like, if you look at the bigger numbers, we trained way more than we did operations versus order of magnitude. Orders of magnitude. Yeah. And this isn't me, we're like, oh, law enforcement. What's wrong with you? No, I'm here to help. But the two things that you can do, law enforcement, private citizen, to take ownership of our environments everywhere we go. Like you mentioned, as you walk around, look at hands, make a game out of it. Just don't bring your hands up because then it becomes like, what do you do? You might care, rest it. So and read doors. Man, that's the biggest thing is like, be a gentlemen. The breaches are gentlemen. That's why the breaches go in last unless there's a half armed arms distance gap because he got a progressively breached. One hand to two to kick to tools to shotguns to expose all the things. Whatever resource you have. But my point is, is that it's not an absolute rule of thumb. But be a gentleman, open the door for your wife, pull and hold stack left. She never digs her corner, though. And you're like, she really doesn't. Dang it. She just walks into the center of the room. Yeah. With no regard. She's not checking any fucking angles. Yeah. Actually, she's not. She not to get off track. My wife is hilarious. If an intelligence agency were to view her specifically on her drive home, they would think she is a highly trained intelligence asset because she finds all the other. Yeah. She takes a fucking SDR every day on the way home. And she doesn't mean to. So we have life 360. And I'll be looking. I'm like, and I'll call her. Why are you over there? Oh, I missed the turn. So now I'm just kind of going where the road leads. If an agency, they'd be like son of a bitch. Yeah. We have found the most trained out never once she gone home. We haven't moved by the way. And she's just, I'm like, whatever. Yeah, every time open the door for it doesn't clear a single corner for me. But like reading doors, man, it's it's such an if you want to increase your ability to process a tactical close course battle environment. Remember, there's a battle. It's a battle for morality. So understand, it's either a corner fed entry or a center fed. How do we determine those? There's a human-sized void to one side beyond that threshold, corner fed. If there's a human-sized void to both sides be on that threshold, center fed. Why does that matter? For strong wall teams, it doesn't, but ask a strong wall team how they strong wall corner fed room. And I haven't seen it done yet. So they do points of domination. They just don't want to say it. They just don't go all the way to the corners. And what we teach is you don't have to. The room, once you open the door, you process in the same things, whether you take and make the L, making an L is important. If there's dead space in the room, which is a void, a human-sized void in depth of the room, the center of the room. I just try to simplify it. I don't speak from this like, why is this so hard? It's just like, my job is to simplify these environments because the enemy, the unknown floor plans, and then the ability to train everywhere you go instead of being like, well, we don't get the resources. Man, read doors. You're on a patrol partner zones, like you get to do a building search. They get access to places that none of us do all the time. All the time. And when safe and when appropriate, it takes one to set a precedent from within. Let's clear this building now. Again, after we've did this building search safely, because it could just be a building search that turns into a closed-quarters battle. Morality, remember, there's something in there, someone, something that doesn't want us there, but we want to be there. So we got to take it. You know, when it transitions to CQB, I just try to simplify it as much as I can, but reading doors is such a useful tool. You know, one of my looking at hinges, is it recess knob? Why am I looking at those? Is it a pull or a push? Which way does it go towards me or away from me? How do I set up? Spoiler people. If you can see the hinges, it comes towards you. But not to be confused with like alcoves. You see them in schools a lot. Even though it's recessed, what I mean by recess is the casing, the threshold. Like it's not flush with the wall that is put in on. And that helps you increase your ability. You people talk about CQB IQ and the art side of it and all that is problem-solving. But the IQ piece I think comes from knowing what to look for, because that's now, because all these other weapons handling skills, all the stuff that we do on the range has to be done at nauseam. So everything else, because guys don't get to do lifefire CQB. I do that every day on the range and in the house. Everything, we do sims for force on force to pressure test larger scale things, but that's okay. I don't get to do that anymore. And so how do we maximize the training environments that we have? And it's
Um, it's knowing what to look for or how to free your bandwidth up. So things are running in the background, so consciously thing through touch things happen. They're not supposed to. I give it where it needs people. They give me feedback. I give them input based on the appropriate feedback that I desire. You know, and same to reduce the number of surprises that you've got yourself with. No, I totally get what you're saying. That's why our motto at our company is prepare for the known and react to the unknown. Because the knowns that I have, I have to continue to prepare for. Because just because I used to be this doesn't mean I'm good at it anymore. Doesn't mean there's still a known to me. So I can never get complacent with those things that are good for me my life. And we could use shooting, moving, communicating as an example, but it's just anything good for me my life. I have to practice. And then if I'm willing to share them with you, they can become a known for you. If you find it helpful for you in your life and vice versa. So we can prepare for more knowns and then reacting to the unknown. What is the unknown? Control unknown is fear. It's it's the uncertainty of what's through that doorway. It's it's the car accident that you're trying to avoid. It's the miscares that you're dealing with in your relationship. You didn't expect it, but you're in it. So you have to react with what you have and that's the knowns and that's that's our motto at Blue Baron. So what about the Radisson caused you to suffer? He said you suffered in silence. What was it about that? They're so there's for one over exposed from a physical, mental and spiritual. They if they I wasn't a follower of Christ back then. But but if you couldn't recite their Quran, they were executing people. And I found that out later, but it just in the hotel in the hotel, yeah. And I told you the way that the people were dressed, just something was not like it didn't stop me. But it was like, good not compute, you know, and, you know, some of the overwhelming environment that I didn't have the troop, the squadron, the overwhelm. And it becomes this like problem to solve. It was a problem to solve, no doubt, but I was overwhelmed and I never stopped. And and then you couple the over pressure, the blast. I got shot from five feet away in a stairwell. That's what this scene is. And the only thing that saved my life is the first round was meant for my face, because I'm looking down a muzzle. It was very weird to look down the muzzle from that close. And how do you find yourself staring down the muzzle, running up the stairs and they were coming down. Our paths just cross based on I was looking for the highest floor that I had Americans. Yeah, that I had gotten information on their room numbers. So poor time meeting in a stairwell. Yeah, they got the high ground and I'm running up. And the stairwell is so if it's not a corner fed, it's not a center fed. So it's either a hallway or a stairwell. So you still take it like room to it shows you it's not. And and with practice as a collective, like it becomes a little bit safer. Oh, yeah, you know, but it's the most dangerous than your danger area. And then you add the depth, the height, the elevation, fighting up hill sucks. It always has. And you know, they got the drop on me, you know, trying to turn and do that pivot to clear the landing above me. Like I've done so many times. But as I'm stepping across from the outside to the inside track, like I'm turning and I see these guys and I look and that's when I'm that's when that first round I looked down the muzzle. And he cracks that thing off and now I'm blacked out. Like smacked up against the wall and I'm, but I'm shooting because I come right back to and I'm engaging rounds that are missing. And I didn't talk about that for a long time. So the, because I was at the concussive blast. Yeah, that's for you. Yeah, what was it, a K a K short shorty. Oh, yeah, because that's pushing some gas up. Yeah, and it was pretty close, man. Like just relative, you know, through, you know, lateral separation and vertical, but like really close. And I only know that that first round, because I couldn't make sense of why that didn't kill me. I didn't stop fighting. And, but I missed several rounds and that, I don't miss. Like that's the part where it's like, you should, you should be ashamed of yourself. I know, but I know we joke around, but it's like, but it's like, if I can't account for a shot, I don't need to do this job like everything that's one way to not take the shot. Sure. That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is a guy was at an AK shoved in your face and doing the best that you could. And I was and there's, there's, there is grace for this. And I, I, but suffering in silence, I didn't want to share that with anybody. Let's, as I thought they would look at me differently. But let's be clear, though, too, I don't know all of the training evolutions you've ever done in your life. But I bet you never put a buddy up on a stairwell and said, Hey, with this live AK, as I clear this, I need you to crack around off right in my face. Yeah. So you train to the limit that you can inside of a safe parameter. It's not going to prepare you for every single situation. No, I, I agree. I, I, I understand why you wouldn't want to talk about it though, but I was middle management at this point. I was a three IC in just lamb, earning my stripes, man, feeling good about what I'm, you know, my, my addition to this, the, the, the most capable fighting force on the planet and. And I'm by myself, you know, and where did the round impact behind me? Like they go right, because it wasn't just one, it was like five or six rounds after. So that first one, I, I know that was like for my face, because I went back there with the FBI, put a suit back on. I'm with them. And, and I went back there for days on end. And I said it was for my own story boards and all that to ARs and part of it was, but it was to try to make sense of everything while I was still here. And that, I have a photo that I've shared on Sean show and that, that really, that's the photo I took from my perspective and from the shooter's perspective. And that's something that makes sense from a science perspective. And, but I think Pulp Fiction, like St. Owen actually was thinking that it's just, every other round after. I was like, and it's this concrete stairwell fire, you know, fire evacuation stairwell. And it's just, they're just popping all around me. And then, you know, I'm also stumbling while I'm now returning fire. And then I, I just saw red. I went, now I'm down on the landing and I yell at this, that these guys like scream, I used to cuss a lot. I don't cuss anymore. And that's been very intentional. But for me, and it changes the way I interact with myself and others. I don't get his angry and all these, it's been such a beneficial thing in my life. But I screamed some obscenities at these guys and went running back up because I was going to try to use speed to get, to gain some momentum based on the engagement that just happened both ways. And as I'm doing that, I hear the primer pop, I hear Alokbar on the Russian sovereign aid and it's very audible, you know. And I knew it was on the delay anywhere from two to three set for three and at whatever it is, three and a half seconds. I think it's two to five is the window for those. Yeah, depending on if it's Chinese, is it which style, but here was this pretty vintage. But it was a, it was a very familiar feel here, audible sound. And that's that Alokbar. Yeah, that only sounds the one way. And I jumped down the stairs, the next to the next landing, I dove over the railing and to get out of the flag zone. And I just ate the overpressure in that stairwell, but it none of the flag hit me. And I, at that point, man, I was like, dude, I need help. Like this, this is something I can't, I got to find a way to come around from the top. I got to lock them down from right here while we do this. I need as many people as we can at that point. This is pretty early after I got the first person out of that room on fire, got him to safety, almost died doing that. And that was a big thing I took back in like training in a fire rescue environment, like with the best in the country, the FDNY rescue you guys. Oh, you took him from smoke inhalation, like learning how to work in and around a fire environment to rescue. And manipulating the fire, you know, to create windows for rescue. Dude, and I didn't have that at training, but I took that back. And not just me, but like Pat Paine, OP he was on, he also came back and was, you know, that was a big proponent to bringing those guys in and training with them. The early on, zero rounds fired on this, I was there for the initial invasion of Iraq, and it was like the third place we went when we got into Baghdad. And the building started on fire. Yeah. We continued clearing up to the second deck. I don't know. That's a floor for everybody else. Second floor, deck, whatever. I don't know how we got down off of that. I have never seen visibility disappear. By the time we got to the first floor, I could barely breathe. And I'm not alone in saying this. Yeah. We were like, everybody's rushing out and get a head count. I don't even know what the hell we would have done had. And when are you further? It, well, if we had been, like, if we had had somebody missing in there. I mean, obviously we would have done everything we could have zero times. Did I ever put that or was involved in a training scenario where that was the case? You want to talk, I couldn't, it was unbelievable. And the velocity that the visibility disappeared, and I'm talking the darkest black.
Yeah, so I know exactly what you're talking about obviously completely different situation, but yeah, I and actually even after that Of course, that was never introduced into any training scenarios, but What a problem. Yeah, but it makes you it made me appreciate the fire guys across this country like one of these so we did a whole workup So I've like ladder and hose team man full boom everything SCBA to the full game it and then they started taking things away from us and now it's like it to learn how to operate with what we normally would have Yeah, not that we don't have you know, SCBAs and stuff, but it's like if what could as a tool? It's not there when you need it Yeah, you got what you got and You know learn and learn you through proper training like and they've really refined this through their operational Experiences of trying to save life and you end up making the fire worse potentially, but for that moment, you know You can vent it to lift to get to and there's good air down there Yes, that's where like if you ever see me with a photo. I got an American eagle on my arm And I got a bunch of black sit. I'm not huffing paint That's I'm sucking the nails out of the floorboard because there's good air down there Let's tell you that like there's good air down there and you're like awesome goods some good smoke So learn it on there and just makes you appreciate like just what the service Across this country looks like and how it isn't just us, you know, yeah And that's a big part of why I do what I do now is like I've it's reinvigorated my sense in pride in this country Seeing and meeting some of the greatest law enforcement and first responders across this country and private citizens Like we do an open enrollment version of our active shooter course the protector mindset and We tailor it to you if you don't have a rifle in your truck. Some people do I'm not saying do or don't I'm saying you're gonna be you're gonna train with what you actually carry So if you carry in a bag, guess what you're doing the whole training with drawn from bags. Mm-hmm carry in the bag And we finish with you know realistic scenarios with people at a real school and you're giving context of like you're picking your kid up And then there's where you get a call you know from your spouse that works there or something We tailor it man. It's very custom built to the individual. It's good but um Where do we go from here you were talking so you were you needed to figure out a way essentially you would go yeah We were in the stairwell, but then you had we had gone I think back in time a little bit to you almost got killed by the smoke yeah, yeah I think some of that training the most important part of the job and role man was showing you the risk Yeah, I didn't even think about it when we were running in there like idiots that want to go yeah dig my corner And I'm like oh my god. I can't breathe like they'd see Now I'm on the ground and I'm like I can't get any lower. Yeah, and I don't know where this dude's at this American Yeah, I know he's in here. I know that he was he was under one of the banquet tables hiding and they were shooting over top of him Was the last information that we got I didn't know where so Um, and I couldn't even figure out where the front door well. I just came in was I'd only gone like maybe 15 feet into the room And luckily I did stay no more than arm's distance off the wall that I came in on and I was able to trace that wall back with the little bit of vertigo Uh or whatever that would be called of like I think so which ways up yeah vertigo yeah And I can't breathe and If I keep going I was gonna die and it was very clear to me in that moment So I was able to find that wall and work my way back to the door And then got him on the phone directly because we were talking through the marine security guard detail the post one And he was because he was talking to him and then relayed us and Got got him on the phone directly and was able at that point, which I didn't know We vented it. I kicked the doors in it vented it and then You know 45 seconds to a minute like it's lifting a bit So when I went back in with more direction of where he was at knowing that I'm coming in That voice you hear is me um That white light I'll be shining my white light really low. I'm gonna move to the right and you know if you can and you hear me or see me come come out Um, I was able to get him and the man he the will is survived is is is so powerful man and like he just looked like he was hanging on the dead like near death You know and I think as he was yeah a lot of people though even just from shock like grown men I'd kick in the doors and targeted room numbers of Americans and Some I could find some I couldn't they'd already escaped or maybe they already were there was one American that was actually killed not She was killed during uh one of the initial volleys that they did but I didn't leave that hotel Until I confirmed without a doubt that she was one of those killed she was the last person I was looking for I need a guitar I just took a lot of uh I tried to bear it all, you know, I could have did more This is my responsibility. I have the ability this is my responsibility And I didn't have any grace and I in the biggest thing that I I was missing Was at the hot wash my team How long were you in country after that occurred by yourself? Just about three and a half months whoa Unravelling on an island by yourself in comparison to being with that your unit. Yeah. I'm physically hurting, you know like I After that initial engagements with the shooters in the stairwell once I was able to get the the Molly and security forces up there gave them like a freaking You know knife. They don't speak you gave them the knife. I gave them the the I gave them the short Short range. I didn't do the long range. I knew the short range. You got to save the knife. Why are they they don't speak English And I was like I don't speak French dude or whatever else knife hand. Yeah, it doesn't matter. This is your country You know and like damn you got to use the knife hand for real. Yeah, that's rare air. Yeah but I was able to do to clear out the rest of that wing that Once I locked the shooters into that spot, but I didn't know if they were able to escape from the top because he I didn't know how they got there. I fit I'd assume they got there coming up from that stairwell But who knows it was there's so many stairwells and there was parts of the the hotel that weren't even on the emergency exit plan Just that had been additions in this edition our paths crossed only be because of God man because I tried to move up to a stairwell that was so I'd use the foot the room numbers. They should be matched As you move up to the levels is with seven story hotel and I was like all right well instead of just running up a stairwell I'm going to find I'm going to take the path I took you know already as I come back in but but then Room numbers I'm looking for rooms 561 62 and 63 that's the highest floor the number worker way down So I wanted to find the closest stairwell to those wings. I looked at the lower numbers found that stairwell Went all the way up to the fifth floor couldn't get in Because of the crash bar being on the other side didn't have any mechanical breaching tools couldn't pry that door Pulled or couldn't pry it open storm a fire rated door, you know, and so that I went down a floor To where I could get back in to the the main part of the hotel the hallway there or one of the hallways And then I worked my way down a wing that led to another stairwell and that's where I ran into them, but that wing Only went to fourth floor, which I didn't realize until I took a step back and was like they couldn't they had to come from the bottom They They're they're trapped at at some point unless we can unless they can get through there was like apartment condos Where you know, whatever contractors were we're living in Um on that fourth floor of that part of the wing or that wing of the hotel um But anyways, I cleared you know, I kicked in a ton of doors, but that And no longer at that point. I'm like let me let me because some One person pops out of the the door and that in that hallway and is like And I'm like And I And I run I run him like hey hands, you know, you know, and hands at him and then they close the door on me And I boot that thing in and I go in and it was just innocent Innocent by standard didn't speak a lick English don't know what country they're from And I was like, okay, what am I just gonna leave him here? What do I do now? We have all these Molly and security forces that have Came in I was like, let's get him out and so I just was like all right. I'm gonna start Stay right here because there's like alko's and I started clearing room to room room So I gather pods of people and then usher them out with with more you know security forces that were coming in Mecha and tell who was who in the zoo like what is going on like who are you? Everybody's got guns and AKs and they're all on fire and you're just like what is going on the hotels on fire Their guns are on fire fingers are on the trigger and I was like oh my god. I'm gonna shot from one of them That's when things like how we actually became Every time I re-enter the hotel I was like oh god deconfliction, you know Is a very real thing an active attack response It's gonna happen it's others are coming You don't get to control what you're if you're off duty and you feel called to respond like you have to increase your You know through FFI or friendly force identification and deconfliction is is huge and so we hammer that in our courses, but So I get out
And I pulled my kid off and I had one of the Marsoctines and I was like, hey man, gotta be bleeding out from the inside. Because I feel, I like it just threw up. My teeth were just loose and they felt so loose and like the taste of my mouth. This is after everything was said and done. No, no, this is after that engagement, cleared that wing, came out because I wanted to get on the phone. Yeah. That's the first time I called my command. That once I got inside, I called my command before I had him check me out and said, hey, this is going on. They're like, Roger that, we know what do you need. I said, I need my boys. I don't know if I can finish this. And they were like, okay, and so the guys back in the states are, you know, must turn up. But then the neighboring country, there's a Tier 1 French element that we worked with and there was one of my old teammates embedded with them and they were on their way. So man, I was like, oh, dude, the end is coming, you know, and I didn't just want to sit like a lump on a log, but I was hurting physically and sensitive to light already because it's really dark in the inside, smokey, come out and I was like, I don't know if it's because of that transition, but also my head hurts. I've been popped a lot and I'm like, dude, this is, this is bad, concussion wise. And I haven't looked at me because like, I don't, I feel nauseous and I think maybe I'm, I don't know how I didn't get hit by a frag or shot or bullets, you know. And so I just had him do us, it took my shirt off, they just do a sweep, like look at me. And it was good, I threw my stuff back on and was like, Roger that, went back in and started moving, went back to check on the, the barricade situation now, some other things that unfolded, but at the end of the day, they did not kill another innocent person. Once I was able to encounter them in the stairwell, I just didn't end that quickly. But fast forward, you know, around 1230, so around noon-ish, I knew that the French troop was coming in, flying in, seeing with 30. And I was starting to prep, like, let's link up out here and I'm going to do a mad minute and like, let's go. They roll up and I'm like, hey, hey, hey, anybody speak English? And they're like, no, and I was like, hey, I was so grateful they were there, man. I was not like, ah, I was just like, thank you guys so much, man, but I got a lot of information I want to share. So I found one that did speak English, but then I was like, have you seen so-and-so? My teammate is he with you. I heard he's going to be with you. And man, when I saw him, it was like, that's my boy. How many terrorists did they found one that spoke English? Yeah. How many terrorists did they end up being there? So I saw three at the end of it, but the report is two. I only say three because there was the top of that staircase, the storage closets that were actually ended up like finishing. But then right off of that was another room and there was another guy in fatigues that looked exactly like them that was dead, and I had no idea where he would have came from. So obviously, the people talk about the fog of war and I only have my perspective. So I've been very public with sharing this, not that it wasn't solo up, like it was like a true testament of being able to be empowered, to make decisions, like from the experiences and the organization that I worked with, or four. And that was a big one, man, because there was the seeds of doubt just were getting layered in. You're going to have the authorities, you guys don't this, and it was a lot of it was coming from my former job, special forces, command and in Germany. And I just saw it in the Marsoch dudes, I was like, they were on the phone, like every five minutes, I was like, get off the phone, like I need you here, man, I need you to be present. And I straight up, that's where the, I was like, that's a tomorrow problem, because whoever up in Germany was like, you're going to ruin our platform, like people are going to, they're not used to, they shouldn't see you with, you know, body armor on and rifles and helmets. And I'm like, who cares? That's it tomorrow. You want to see dead bodies pulled out on the news? I mean, that's a tomorrow problem. And but the thing is, is like my courage and the courage of others is contagious. But the seeds of doubt starts to create hesitation here and then here, like physically. And it was, that's where, like I said, man, God bless those guys, but they were not empowered by it. And that's an old fault of their own. That's a big problem with special forces too. And my, in my opinion, from my perspective, we had a cliff, a commander's reactionary force that sits in Germany for this very thing, significantly closer to the crisis than the United States of America. Still far, but, but closer and it's what they're designed to do and they got told to stand down. I had one of my old teammates up there doing some admin things on his rotation, rotating out to exchange this or that and he heard that I was, this was happening and that, and he went straight to the sift guys and was like, let's go. So they were mustering up, like loading up and they got told to stand down. And I was like, what? So, you know, had the French not in position because that was their Afghanistan really, like Northern Mali, they were very kinetic going after all the different, you know, AQM and Elm over Tune and all the different, and eventually ISIS, but they, you know, we advise a system and we could accompany, but we never did because the geopolitical issues with the state departments in those countries. They didn't want a soft presence. So that's where, for the longest time, like the Afrikam messaging or the greater message was that special, eventually it was like Mali and Zardin and then it was like special forces are on the assisted, assisting with the evacuation or, and then it wasn't until years later that something, until I got the distinguished service cross, which was three years later, which I'm extremely honored to have. It was such a, it's an honor. Well, you did this amazing thing, man, I mean, you deserve every stretch and inch of that medal. I got to be, I got to be awarded it with my family there and it was very, it was very personal to me in a place that, you know, we're very secretive, even with our own families. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that did bother me about that was I had one of the guys that were there from the State Department that saw real time, at least the first few hours of the response come in and kind of speak on my behalf and, and, and I don't know what it was, but what they shared was very different than how they shared it was a little different than what I experienced and it, and it seemed like there was a, because of our inner agency, you know, efforts and not that that's not the case, but I wasn't waiting on any one, and I led. And all I, all I expected in that moment was that, that one moment of, like, to speak to that, to that confidence that through my leadership, which they spoke to me and said this to me over and over, and then years later, you know, things, narratives were written and very publicly because it was a massive success, and it, from a inner agency, uh, cooperation and, and evacuation and response at the greater, um, you know, the greater side of it, but in the end of the day, like, the actions of a few is what allowed that to be possible, and it was just, it was kind of off putting, um, I get that, but it doesn't matter. But it is perspective, though, like, I have my perspective, and I was like, very, I didn't share this story until I shared it with Sean, so no other person's narrative state department whoever changes the actions that you took again. So I get how it could be off putting, but, but also, like, also, that's why I've been, you know, I was vocal with Mike about this is like, because people take things and, and they have, they take liberties with them, and, and there's so many things that say solo Delta force operator, I think say he's 170 people, I think what they mean is that he were the only not by yourself, but the only guy from CAG that was there. I think that's what they mean. That's what a being gracious that when I read that, that's what I, what I read. Yeah. And, and, and I don't want to take away their actions, like at all, but I can only speak to my experiences. And that's what I've done. And it's not just the, the, the tomorrow problem thing, the empowerment thing. That was a very real thing that we both had to deal with in that moment. And I'm like, as the leader of this ad hoc team, I'm like, like, look at me. I'm the captain now. No, it was a joke. But sorry. It's a good joke. Yeah. What are you talking about? Uh, and, um, so it's just God bless us, dudes, man. And I, you know, sadly, I don't know if it's something, because this is going to unpack it a few things, but though, you know, I told you they rotate the Marsoctaves. They rotate into that platform because of the mission to build rapport, continue to maintain it. They have a lot of the same guys going in every, every year, or year and a half, whatever the rotation cycle.
is, but they have, you know, ground knowledge, they have the relationships and all those things. Well, after that, when I did go back home, I got really close through that trip with one of them, specifically, Mario. And he was a warrior and is. But he was struggling too. And we were both struggling in our own ways. And, you know, he was preparing to go back over there. And I was like, man, and I'm on the phone with him talking off the ledge. And I was like, whatever you do, man, like just tell them that you can't, like don't go back over there. I wouldn't right now. There's some more healing that we got to do. And, you know, I found out later that he did. And he was going back over or he can't tell them that he, no, he went back over. Okay. He went back over and he was a part of the, um, that situation where they, they killed the special forces guy Logan, Melgar, Melgar. That was in the same house that I was assigned to by myself. A team of guys lived there, special forces and seal team six guy. Yeah. Excuse me. But, and I don't know those guys. All I know is that place is a breeding ground for idle hands and, and bad decisions. And I'm not trying to take anything away from or justify anything that happened or, I'm not trying to make familiar with the details of it either way, like it, from what I understand, hazing gone critically wrong. And it, and almost per, like, it had to be personal. I've heard some, like, a train guy, like, in her stuff. Well, I've heard some deeper, darker stuff, aligning with the potential reasons or motivations behind it. But I have no confirmation of it. So I'll just leave it at the end of the day. Somebody who shouldn't have lost their life did. Absolutely. And it's tragic. And Mario was one of the responders into the rassum blue hotel attack with me. And then he went to jail. Yeah. And the ward that he was given, the silver star was taken from him. And it was never a ward. I was going to say, well, I've never heard of that, but it was never awarded. And I don't know if it's ever going to be. But that, that's the thing is that award. He deserves that award from his actions. Because that's what valor awards are for. Correct. And that's not me just to find anything that happened after that. There's two different situations. But I can speak and I, and I did speak and I wrote character and witness statements on behalf from my perspective of his actions. And you know, above and beyond it, selfless in a in a grand scale of we don't like, like when I got awarded that, I was the fourth guy in the unit to be awarded the Distinguished Service Cross since 1978. And it's not a matter of like their valorous acts are there. It's just the scrutiny of what gets put in for one of those like is extremely good. It's real as it should be. It has to be so maintained to what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, so it's something that, you know, I, and I haven't talked to him since then. He's still in jail. I don't know. I don't know. But I hope that him and I can reconnect and that he's not alone. I'm with you and everything is everything can be made. Everything will be used for our good and God's glory. If we're being honest, even the suffering, the tragedies, the trials to endure, but to endure for what? Because I think endurance, to build endurance, right? If endurance doesn't connect to hope, it's misery. So it needs to connect to hope. And that's what I'm doing, man. I'm trying to bring hope through my examples, not, not trying to tell you what you need to do. I'm trying to live a life worth, worth following. And just talking about your experiences as a getting easier for you as you get reps under your belt. Yeah. But when I get to man feeling, to be able to feel is such a great gift. I know you're like, what do you mean? No, you know exactly. No, I know exactly what you mean. But some people listening might be like, these guys are just like brainwashed or they're just stock or not stock one, but shell shocked, you know. And it's like, yeah, I mean, there's aspects of like prolonged exposure to these environments that the compartmentalization is a tool, but it's a tool that you have to build on package safely. The bill of sale is due on that tool. It's coming at some point in time. But talking about it has gotten easier. And every time I do, whether it's a public speaking, because I'll do public speaking for law enforcement, predominantly. I've tried, I did one corporate thing and I was like, this is not for me. Thank you for the opportunity, because I just felt like everything I was saying was people were coming up to me after I'm like, man, I hope you get the help you need. I'm like, thank you. Thank you. But that's not, I don't leave, I don't leave things with like, I need help. It's like, no, that is interesting feedback after a public presentation. I think if people are coming up to you saying, I hope you get the help you need. Yeah. I was like, well, I need to see the slide deck. You talk to, yeah, I ever find it, ever find it a bit too. But it's, it, it is like, you know, maybe that eventually will be a part of, you know, this mission at some point, but I just realized that you can't put a dollar and sense on, on the impact that we can have. Yeah. And I'm better served right now, speaking to the warrior class and the, and the protectors, right? So the private citizens that hear this message is too, because I want guys and gals to just for one to protect innocence. But also to truly protect the mind, the body, the spirit starts here. If I don't protect what I consume, the people I interact with, the way that I interact with them, am I really a protector? Physically, my kids knew that I would, I would put myself in great harm's way. I'd put my life and trade my life for theirs. Now, there's times through my fatherhood, where belligerently drunk, could I have done that? Straight up abandoning them, leaving their mother, because I, it wasn't an issue with y'all, it was me and her. So indirectly, traumatizing them. And then directly to try to make her pay. I'm going to, so there's parts of that story that's like, no, I wasn't, I wasn't actually doing the things that I, that I'm preaching now. But, but that doesn't matter, because that's how I was showing up. This is who I am now. So, because when I walk into the room at that Airbnb and we go back, what does my youngest daughter do when I walk in the room? That's how I gauge, am I providing them, am I protecting their mind, their spirit, their heart? And that's what matters most to me is, is intentionality and tone. Like, I don't, I don't raise my voice anymore. I told you I don't cost anymore. I started doing that with burpees per cuss word and that was fun. How did you punish yourself a lot? I mean, per cuss word. One, because I know it seems like nothing, but I cussed a lot. Okay, so you're getting some reps and we could be mid conversation. And I'd be like, boom, and you would have no, you'd have no idea that this was a part of something that I was doing. And it's kind of a fun like conversational piece, because then you'll see light bulbs come on another man. Yeah. And they're like, you know what, I like that. I'm going to try it. And the biggest benefit that I found is I don't get as angry, because those words are connected to, to an emotion. And once it, once they release, it's really hard to bring them back. Yeah. So, just being very intentional about protecting, providing safety and security truly, like, because that's what they, they require from us as their protector. But it's the mind, the heart, and the soul. So, I am called to that, that leadership role, and not just by a title from God's design. And what, what the word of God, it's the only tool that God's my life know. And I don't get this right every day, but there's grace for that. Praise God for that, man. It's, Jesus's life on this earth was an example for me to follow. And I was so interested in, in my recovery of the man. And if you want a good moral guide, he is a wonderful, he's the greatest moral guide that ever existed of how to live a selfless, fruitful life. But he'd also be a lunatic if that were the only thing because of what he said. I am the way, I am the light, I'm the truth, I'm the only way to the Father is through me. And I believe that he's more than just a moral God. C.S. Alyssa described that in the mirror Christianity. And it's, it just makes so much sense to me. And that's what I choose to chase because I needed a man every day of my life that my Father wasn't. And I have that now. And I don't just have that. I have my heavenly Father. I have Jesus to walk with in the Holy Spirit to fill my, my voids instead of with other things. And all the things get easier, sobriety's gotten so much easier. But I don't travel alone. I don't stay no tells myself because there's a chance, because of the human, the human condition and the world culture society. I got everything at my fingertips here. Man, I keep pointing to this because this is a slave thing. But it can also be such a, a tool that we can use. And it takes building boundaries. How do you and I connect it? Yeah, you know, no exactly and that's how we're able to share this message and
And you know, it's extremely important in my life to share that message. But to meet people where they are, you know, I won't ever, you know, when I, we openly pray in our classes at the beginning and the end of the day. And I use that as a challenge for people. I say, hey, we're going to pray because I need it. And maybe some of you realize you need it too, but if you aren't religious, take this moment to reflect and meditate and be present, be where your feet are. Because what we're doing and what we're about to do is inherently very dangerous. We're going to do it safely. We're going to push each other. We're going to learn, but it's dangerous. So I'm going to ask for protection and for wisdom and guidance and openness, open heart posture to remove the ego. And then in the evenings, I say, I always say this, I'm like, does anyone feel called in the group to close out in prayer? And I look and I pause for a bit and I'll see, you know, occasionally I'll see one or two guys go. It's something like that. And I don't call them out. I just say, guys, if you felt that little small still voice or the tug on your heart, and when I said that, I challenge you to go back and think about where that originated. And that you cannot mess this up. I'm going to close this out in prayer. But tomorrow night, man, if you feel that same tug, just raise your hand, man. Everything that you say, you cannot mess up because he knows our thoughts before we even think him. He knows our heart, our posture, the intent. And that's been one of the biggest impacts I've been on to make to truly impact our society. Do you guys in your squadron praying together before operations? The only op that I've been on that we, and this was very weird. I do see guys. Yeah, like there's guys on onesy twosies, but yeah, onesy twosies, but as a collective, there's only been one operation that it was very somber. I was like, why did we just do that? And then you say goodbye to your teammates because it was very, what's the word? Like a complex, the infill. In very the likelihood of, not likely, they was certain that we're going to be engaged, just what point during infill. So it was the first time though I was like saying goodbye to my teammates and it was this kind of somber feeling, you know, I don't know if I'm going to see them again, but let's do this. But yeah, I mean, I don't even remember that until you just said it, but you do see the onesies and twosies. And it's like, I used to be like, well, that's cool. They got their own thing that they do and usually over mules and stuff and where you're like, hey, what, hey, so and so people I really perspective it admired and they're reading something. I'm like, what's reading? And it's the Bible and I'm like, hmm, that's not for me, but cool. And then there's guys that if there's an ounce of of error in their tactical prowess, you will like see, that's weakness, that what you're feeding yourself as weakness, you're the Christianity stuff that you're talking about and you're doing and how you don't partake in the after hours festivities because of what, you're better than us. So much of this and this is the same thing I did Erica and she grew up in a very, you know, cultish religion and as a job witness and she had her own reservations with the organized religion and we just didn't do it as a part of our relationship. And did you find your faith together when you did? Yeah. Like, when I pushed away in 2016, I moved out and I got back from that trip. She leaned in to a faith that I hadn't really seen and maybe she was just doing it in private and I just couldn't see something. But yeah, I actually know that because she would do Bible, like a Bible study with the kids on Thursday nights and I'm, or like when I wasn't there on deployments and then I come back and they wouldn't do it. And I was like, hmm, didn't think any of it. But as I'm pushing away from her, she pushed into her faith and then she tried to share that with me and I just would be like, rip that up. I don't need your God, like where's your God? And her faith led me to where I'm at. So that's not for her, but meaning as a spiritual leader in our homes as men, that's what we're called to be. And that's not this like, do what I say. It's holding a space to lead with our example, to lead them to understand, to make sense of, to be okay with relationship because that's all prayer is, this relationship. He just wants communication. That's all he wants from us is communication. And we like to overthink it and just talk to him. He wants to listen. He wants to hear what you're going through. You can ask him things and of things of him and it's, you're never alone and that's the piece that I think I've always just kind of filled the space of aloneness with moments of isolation. And that became very unpredictable for me and for everybody I care about. Versus solitude. Solitude is such a powerful thing that we need. If you think about Jesus, he would do like the sermon, the sermon on the mountain, when the greatest teachings ever. And he would leave the disciples and say, I need some time with God, with my father. And he'd go away from them and that's solitude. So everything he did was an example for us to, to live a fruitful life. But this is a calling and blue bearing is a ministry and we just do it, using the gifts God's giving us to teach, shooting, moving, communicating. Because once again, the, the, the success thing, the treasured you build up is the people. So at the end of our days, and this is my belief, you know, when Jesus does come back, you know, one of the last things that happens is all the sin and suffering we're feeling and pain is the tears are going to be wiped from our faces. And what were those tears for is the people that we could have witnessed too that are now separate, living eternity separate from God. And that's what matters to me is because I care about others and, and their attorneys. So, um, and I'm also very young in this, and this walk in, and, and trying to be a good steward of any resources, um, because taking this full circle back to finances is like, it's to give, man, to experience things, memories and then do something meaningful with, yeah. How do we prepare people to do the job that you did to, to serve this country or to specifically your track at that level, at that operational tempo? How do you prepare somebody for that and not have them a version of Humpty Dumpty, the DM that is barely put back together again? Well, that's a, I think it's wonderful. You said that because there's been, you know, there's other people that, so borderline, if, being emotionally regulated is huge. So where, where you anchor that emotional regulation is huge. There is other mental illnesses like being a psychopath or a sociopath, which is a very real thing that we've experienced on the Navy side. Yeah. That's why y'all are better. Um, so clip which by the way, that's the dumbest argument people engage in, who's better steel team? Yeah. Like, shut up guys. Well, let's just, let's just do it, like, let's do the mission. What's the mission? Let's go. That's all less together. Like, this is what I was telling Brent because we were talking about. I'm like, Hey, man, there's no CQB Olympics. Yeah. You know, there's no DA direct action Olympics. Yeah. This is the dumbest waste of bandwidth ever. There's no finish line with it. Yeah. Like, that's why because the, the problems are unlimited. That's why I love it. And while I have the breath in my lungs and the physical abilities to do it, yeah. It's, it's extremely intoxicating, if you will, um, it is, but, but it, it can be taught. And it's not like, what makes me so special? Like it choices that you took to get to where you're at. I mean, again, well, selflessness, especially in unique, I guess, or, you know, I don't think they're interchangeable. Some of the choices that you made to get to where you were were unique, yeah. Some of the actions that you took were very special. And I think a lot of people would hope to include myself that pressed in that situation. You'd have the stones to do it. I tell you what, till you're in that situation, you can hypothesize all day long. It's easy to say when it's time to do gangster shit, you're going to be ready to do it. When that day arrives, you and I, I mean, you know the reality of it. You either, you either rise to the occasion or you don't. Yeah. So you're not sure. Yeah. The biggest thing I think that can help prepare you, I mean, is us, like we, being good examples for others, not living, and living this persona, not saying this, like, oh, look at me. Oh, combat, I'll never glorify this. But the right men and women that are called to do it can endure it, but it is a burden. And if that is you.
If you feel that is you, there's so many positive male and female role models that we can develop that maybe aren't our parents, that we can develop this sense of what's right and what's wrong, and then put words to our values, our boundaries. That's man, 'cause if that's you, if you're one of those people that has this call in their heart to protect, and you don't have the values, the words to the values and boundaries, you're going to end up like I did, but it's not too late, and that's why I'm here, to share, to heal out loud, to share a testimony, there can't be a testimony without tests. And everything that I'm doing now is to be that example for them and to be there if I can to help guide them. If God places them in my life, and some of the, some of the like most profound things that happen with me, and what I'm doing now is that call to service. I'll get messages, and I try to respond to what I can, but to be impacted by that to see, to be there at their graduation, not everybody, but the ones that have physically been placed in my life, man, because that's what makes I think this country, the people are what make this the greatest country on the planet, and that will always be the case if we remain in service to this country and others. Humanity, you know, and that's not glorifying killing, it's not glorifying war, it's a part of life, it's a part of life since the beginning of time, is you have this, I want that, you have this, I want this train, I'm going to take it. - Or I believe this, and you believe that, yeah. - So if, because there's so many things that you and I both did that we didn't agree upon, why we were there, but okay, what am I gonna do? Quit? Like what is that gonna do? Now they're, now they're, now they're enduring it, and I'm quitting. So so much of it is the guys to your left and right, and that gets us through the next day, the next day, and the next day. And, but in the day, like one of the things that is very upsetting is like serving as many times as I did and you did in Afghanistan for us to pull out the way we did. And I don't want to make this about politics, but the thing is, is like, campaign promises are a freaking, well, that's why ISIS became a real problem, that's why Iran became a real significant problem when we pulled out based on campaign promises. And not, and not saying that we need a status of forces agreement. All these things, and the way we pull out of Afghanistan is just freaking, and just abandoned. It's not just politically aligned. It's not like political party aligned, like this same thing. Like, I tell people, I served during a time through Bush, through Obama, and then through Trump, where, and I guess Biden, where at certain points, like, we got to do more under the Obama administration. - Yeah. - Dude, he was a savage. - But that was very unique to us, like in the, in the, in the tier, yeah, that we were in. - Or unless you were a drone operator. - Dude. - Yeah. - He let the dogs of War off the chain with the drones. - But, but then at the same point, going after dismantled the caliphate with ISIS, maybe we got both hands were tied before, and then Trump allowed us to untie one. So now we're just throwing hooks and jabs with one hand. And it's just like, man, the, the greatest power that we have is, is the ability to, to leverage our military to deter war. So, I think there's been so many use cases over these years of like, I'm not gonna waste my life on the noise, man. And what can I influence? What can I, should I be aware of? And what can I control? Really control is my actions and reactions. We were talking about earlier, these three spheres. And if I've been called to serve in these capacities, and that's, if that's you as a young man or woman, know that it comes with, with great burden and great cost, and what that cost looks like is based on how much you've prepared your whole being for things that aren't normal. - Do you think, and I'll ask this through the lens of you. - Same with law enforcement too. It's not a big deal. - Oh, agree with this. First responders. - Sometimes I would say, sometimes I would say, an even harder job. At least we could clock in and clock out. I mean, they, I don't, I'm not reminded of the horrendous wrecks or of loss of life when I'm driving home, you know what I mean? 'Cause these officers are serving in their communities. You know, I would agree with you. The cost can be tremendous. But do you think you can be a better version of yourself as a human because of it? Oftentimes it's only phrased through the lens of the broken toy narrative. If you go this path, you're gonna be broken. - Or that we're talking about all these things of like, oh, we're just these damaged warrior operators and just, well, it was me. - I feel like I am a substantially better version of myself because of my experiences. - Yeah. - Were they all great? No, the vast majority of them were not great. But what I can do with those experiences or work through them and do with them afterwards doesn't mean those experiences don't have to define me. And they can make me a better version of a human being. - Absolutely. I mean, that's the, that's the, that's the secret. Like there is, there is things that you will be faced and have to do that are going to impact you. It's what we do. Do we let it define this tsunami thing? Like do we let it define us, destroy us or improve us? And in failure, if you're not expecting failure, you're naive because failure is what builds us to improve. And you know this and that's a big part of why you wrote that book that I can tell from my observations of positive impact, man, and help people. All I wanna do the rest of my life is have a positive impact. - Yeah. - And that's what you're doing with it. So in learning lessons and sharing those, 'cause knowledge, man, knowledge is one of the most powerful things that we can share with each other. But it's also all, you know, I don't teach millions this 'cause it's a secret and I'm like, go read a Ranger Handbook. - I'm still waiting to learn the secret CQB by the way. - Yeah, I know, I'm like, it's squad attack. If you think about it, like, like, oh you guys use a different angle measure. I'm not like, no, angles are angles, man. I mean, I also don't think it's infinite. Maybe infinite number of scenarios, but the angles and the math and what you've. - Yeah, once you start to hammer those, man, it's like, okay, this is just a new problem. - Yeah. - That goes back to the problem solving piece. But it's like, a lot of people think that they're, you know, you get the bad shoulder or the bads protecting or whatever kind of mindset of like, knowledge is mine, man. So, and this is prevalent everywhere. I don't think it's just in the tactical, you know, environment. I think it's like life, knowledge is power. So, they're like, I'm not going to share all my knowledge 'cause then I'll be replaced. It's not a matter of if it's just when you will be replaced. There is a shelf life on these tactical environments. I can't tell you what it is. It's preparation. It's, you know, how much, what's your coping mechanisms, all the things, how do you interact? How do you deal with fear? How do you deal with pain? And how do you recover from those things and failure? And that's, the shelf life is, it's coming though. But that, but it's just, it's a part of your life or a part of it. And what you're doing and what I'm doing and so many others is showing others that we can be successful outside of what we've been indoctrinated to believe is the pinnacle of our lives. And it's not. It was a part of it. And it's extremely proud to have, it's the hardest place to get to, to stay out and to leave. But it was a job. It was a part of my life. And I'm remorseful for the things that I did that I, that didn't honor that place or my family or God. And I'm doing something with it. And I think that's the part that's inspirational because motivation is fleeting. And it's very, it's like time that man comes in and out. Yeah, exactly. And so how do you discipline, you know that? But inspiration is a thing that I think we can be using, being a good steward of the ability to influence as we build and be in our challenge with these new endeavors, you know. And we'll make mistakes as we have and we'll learn and we'll grow, we'll share them appropriately. And you know, that's the point. Is the knowledge piece is powerful if you share it. It's the most selfish thing if you don't. So I agree. If you were the Cag King for a day, what one thing, I would not say there's only one thing that would need to be changed. But it has spending as much time as you did there. What would you change if anything? I think the transition piece, which is a part of what I talked about in the beginning. Like it's a matter of time. And that's the thing is like nobody leaves that place that was an operator that either didn't retire or that retired, that's how they leave. We got told to leave where they couldn't physically do the job anymore because of injuries or performance. So it's something that there's nothing I would change about the culture of that. But the transition piece I think, which I believe they are doing, you know, another thing that I know has changed as a result of me being very, well, couldn't hide from it, was that when a crisis response happens, Like, there has to be, there was all these, like,
Crisis management teams flying in from agency x y and z and triage and people that weren't even in the hotel But they were just impacted by that mission or by that situation Sykes and docks and and all that and I'm over in the corner coloring. I'm like Okay, I'm good and I think that's something that Because I was very open about like hey man. I need to something to sink my teeth into like I'm unraveling That helped kind of Bring in some support there towards the very end as I'm coming home, but a lot of the damage had already been done And I took and the way I was showing up over there kind of lawlessness. I never used to drink and drive. I did there and I took that home Um, I was just so angry. I couldn't even look at the continent of Africa without getting triggered I couldn't look at very dark, complex black people without getting triggered and it and It was I needed to heal man and I Needed to be rescued from myself and I think as leaders like we have to see that is as Exceptional of human beings that can work in one place that like that organization and I'm sure with the organization too it's Like we have to create these Protocols, you know, and I saw that kind of happening the last couple years. I was there because Kind of like the TBI protocol like it became a thing. Yeah, like it should already you got to sit out like you just got Bob you can't pass the the PT the vestibular or all that you got to sit out until you can get a screen like a Concussion protocol like that became a real thing, but this is all kind of post 2016. So I think that has changed in the sense of like these Crisis response teams that aren't the operators the the support, you know the the chaplains the the medical the the psychological Professionals kind of coming in and I think the best thing that could have happened to me and I don't like I said I don't want to play God and try to change anything was to get out of that country and I wouldn't have Volunteered to do it. Yeah I needed a leader to tell me like hey, we we need you to we need you to go over here We're gonna switch you out with this and we need you to work on this over here and I'm like okay Roger that So and this isn't like I'm a victim. It's it's just we didn't we didn't know it didn't know neither and it's in it was It wasn't a mission It wasn't a mission that we planned for it's a it's a mission that we trained for In a certain way and there's aspects that I'd like the active attack, you know side of it that we weren't necessarily trained for but applied the techniques that we do with hostage rescue and um You know, I think that's one thing coupled with the transition piece of knowing that there is a point of It's time to hang it up and let's let's help you sink something sink your teeth into some the next thing. Yeah Are you more proud of the man you are now or the man you were and the things you were able to accomplish in the military the man I am now Like by a lot. I hope people hear that because You served at the absolute highest level for a really long time and accomplished. I would say Just about everything that anybody looking for a high-level career in the military Would want to do and you're more proud of the things you've done and had become afterwards People have to hear that Because they get lost and everything is and who they were and what they did Or what they're trying to do yeah And I think that you can do those things and and I like when I'm most thank you for saying that um I don't want to gloss over that that means a lot um I am most proud Of being the husband to my wife and the father to my children and if God blesses us with grandchildren I'm so excited about that Because I didn't have that And that's not an excuse. I'm doing something about it um and And being a positive male role model as I as I walk through the streets As I'm given opportunities to impact our youth like that's how we change our society It's not going to be you and I that make the change. It's going to be them and their children It's definitely not going to be the government I've I've landed on the top is not going to it's not going to cascade top down It has to be bottom up. It's through the things you're talking about though It is generational and it's on a timeline I don't think the trains are going to come off the track for our country might rattle a little bit on the track But I think it's supposed to actually maybe it needs to to reinvest what it is you're talking about The awakenings the revivals like a post Charlie Kirk assassination like that was a revival And now we're it's got a cricket. It's but my point is is that That's a big part of why Mike Ritland turned his life Back to Christ and which was recent right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, he shared that with me on the podcast real time and I was just like Going away and in the conversation. I was just like because I thought he was an atheist and And it God was working me over too because I was apprehensive to do it not because I don't I just I scrutinize everything that I do now through This lens through this new perspective Solid footing in purpose Amon solid footing and if you're not a man of faith mentally and my physically on solid footing mentally, you know, I'm on solid footing And then do I have a purpose for what it is I'm going to do and if because the purpose Alone can be very blinding passion very blinding so if I can't be if I can't answer yes to both of those and any given scenario like I don't I just don't do it and it's not like Not ever. It's just not yet not right now Um, so that's where but you do have to take risks too and Like I just don't want to grab mics to grab mics man, but it's it's part of that kind of call of like being that quiet professional So doing it with integrity with honor not trying to and there's some people that won't won't See anything other than the title of Delta Force operator Kyle Morgan didn't he get fired didn't this and that and they won't Is that how you like me to title the video Michael write that down. Yeah, I write it down And it's a really long YouTube title. I think it cuts it off Fairfraze that yeah, but my point and my point is is that the there's people that I'm Given the gifts given this opportunity that I get to do not have to yeah um Checking in my own solid footing to have a purpose I've regained and that's where there's like it's a daily thing throughout the day and When I can't answer those questions, I don't just say no right away. I I seek Wisdom Vartically and then I express outwardly to the people to the few Chris fed as is a really close friend of mine and really post Any military service. We did the a jump course together. I didn't know that but um Uh, did a horny gorilla together and and 10 years later. I got to meet him again for the first time But he's a really close friend of mine and I'm really proud of him and in what he's doing and um There's several others, but we only need a few that we can you know see council from and be honest with because you're only going to get what you give and If you want them to tell you that that's the right answer then you're going to get the right answer that you've already made up in your mind so being vulnerable and capable though Because vulnerability as a man is one of the most another powerful thing that we can do or display But it can also be used to hurt you if you don't turn it into an asset A strength and that's where capability comes so With the skills of my hand and the integrity of my heart regardless of Violating my integrity. What did that do? It didn't mean I didn't have integrity. I mean I I damaged it I inflicted injury morally Over and over and a lot of it was personally like in my personal decision-making in the lack of care for my own well-being, you know, I wasn't Yeah, it wasn't worth it, you know, and Goes back to identity, but Getting yourself outside of yourself. I think is the challenge for each and every one of us daily and sometimes that's just how we start our day You know, um, which is kind of this kind of oxy moron. Maybe that's the wrong way to put it but We want to before we be proactive versus reactive with how we start our days, but a lot of it is looking inward And then re but reading too though like journaling and reading is extremely important and then visualization You know, all those things are extremely important to be proactive, but you know if you think about for me it started with one thing I'm going to do one thing to get myself outside of myself today and some of that is in the beginning Was I'm not going to go over here because over here I did a bad I did a lot of bad things So I'm just going to stay away from there People places and things got to change. I have to literally change my actions and then work my way through feelings and thoughts This loop that gets disrupted but it could just be you know not
not responding. You see something like, "I want to punch this dude in the face, but I don't. Why? Am I weak? Do I not have the ability to do it?" It's the space through instinct and action. That takes very intentional practice. I think the more capable you are, the more space you can provide yourself to. Absolutely. A lot of times people jump into that action because they're scared or they're untested or they feel like they're unproven. They don't have the reps. Once you understand your capability and you keep pressing it, and constantly innovating and evolving and growing with it, the people I know who are the most capable of violence for the ones who least look for it. That's not like we're here in the garden versus gardener in the war. It's blessed are the peacemakers, man. I'm capable of extreme violence and I choose to live a peaceful life. But in order to be capable to say that, I have to practice these skills. So we're going to do jujitsu tomorrow and have you ball me up. I don't know, man. Zero pride. I feel like you're going to be handful. Yeah, but endurance is lacking right now. So here's the beauty though. We focus on your daughter. Yeah. Wait till you see my wife's eyes light up. She's so exiled. Again, it's a tool. It's a capability. She'll do women's self-defense courses. She doesn't call them that. The gym calls them that. She would be the first person to tell you that in a two-hour seminar, if you apply the term women's self-defense, so that you're not being honest. There's something you don't have in that amount of time. Totally. Yeah. She starts with how you present yourself, how you walk, how you carry yourself. Don't look as if you're an easy victim, you're posture, you're gay. And the way that you're hand-swing and things like that, it's such an incredible tool. But literally, the people I know who are capable of the most violence are not the ones who are out there looking to engage in it. Because I think they have that capability. And they understand the consequences there. And the cost of violence, I mean, yeah, I enjoy peace. Yeah, me too. Very much so. Like I said, I'm not going to rob myself of that gift of peace because I could do it very easily. In fact, that's the daily struggle as you go. For us all. Yeah, for every one of us. But intentionality is so important. Get yourself outside of yourself daily. The reason that we don't call our training course the active shooter response training certification, it's the protective mindset course. Because I do believe that in a three day experience with us, you can take that with you just like to point with your wife and how she's kind of like jaded about calling that a self-women self-defense course in any two hour given time. It's the same way with me with three days. It's still like given you specific tangible things that you can take and work on. What you leave until you come up with, because I ask you, you'll say like, well, I just want to, I want to drive fire more. I'm like, well, what does that mean? First of all, like specifically, what do you mean? Like what aspect of drive firing? Because we all need to drive fire ourselves a little bit more every day. Like head to toe, you know, and then if they, if they say, like, man, I just need to, I need to train on CQB more. I'm like, yep, so do I. We all do. You got to be more specific or else you're just, you're going to, it's cost a lot to train with us, but you will get more than your money's worth in that any given amount of time. That's sick value or two different things. Yeah. And it's okay to have a high price when you have an exceptional value. Yeah. And building community, because everybody that walks out of there, like I want you to go home and look at things differently. Okay, what? That's some of the tangible things that you can work on, read and doors, hands, all those things, processing the environments and getting more creative with how and what you're specifically training on. In a lot of things that get glossed over because people are like, oh, we just master the basics. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But mastery of the basics is there's no finish line. Like I can become very good with my weapons handling, but give me a different gun. How good am I with that? So there's a, there's like so many things that we can even add to our weapons manipulations to mastering the basics and problem solving. And like it's, it's how we view the problem we get to versus we have to. And because when bullets are flying, man, you're not going to rise to that occasion. You're going to fall back to what you've done level of your training. Yeah. What do you want to, what do you want to leave people with? We've been out for almost three and a half hours. Happy. Yeah. This has been a good conversation. Yeah. And then I have a gift for you. Oh. So I do want to say what you'll never guess what it is. I close my, the mission that I'm on with Frontline Healing Foundation. So people that don't know, I've mentioned Tom Spooner a couple of times in this conversation, but he and Josh and Lisa Lannon started Warriors Heart, which is a residential treatment facility based out of Bandera, Texas. There's one in Virginia. 42 day treatment, unlike anything. I've never went through the treatment myself, but I've witnessed aspects of it. I've participated in aspects of it. I've taken two words with people to, to show them the, the, the healing words, healing words. So they started a nonprofit side where it's Heart Foundation. And at a certain point, they decided to rebrand that to Frontline Healing Foundation and then also open it up because of optics. Like it's, it's not, it wasn't a function to, to, to pad the for profit side of a residential treatment center for chemical dependencies, post-traumatic stress TBI. That's where the combative or the Jiu-Jitsu thing. They do the clients. That's where they call them. You go through treatment. If you need detox, you do the detox part and then you start your treatment. But the first thing that you experience when you get there is a sign in like a living room setting as you're checking in. Strong out wherever you are, you're checking in. And it says, "Welcome home." Everybody that interacts with you says, "Welcome home." Shake your hand. So it's unlike anything I've ever experienced. There's a culture to successfully completing that treatment, which is unlike anything I've ever, versus doing your time. 28 days, man. That's all I got to do. I mean, rehab or, you know, it's very different. But there is a big, there's a void financially. And it's either through VA claims that get held up or denied through military, active or veteran, law enforcement, private health care only pays a portion of their treatment costs or they don't have insurance, first responders. So it's a broad net that I don't know of another non-profit that casts a net. But the primary focus being chemical dependency and push them extra STBI and so on. So they do dirt there. They'll do art wood shop stuff. They'll do metal work. Man, it's, and then the work. You got to do the work. And it's beautiful, man. And I've been on part of the frontline healing foundation, not a board of directors for almost two years. In its volunteer, I don't get paid to do it. And it started with how do I give back to that organization and did a fundraiser for my birthday and was able to donate what was the average cost, which was of what they would pay out in a hardship, which was like 10,000, 300 bucks. And I was able to do it because of our following and my, God's working they've influenced my ability to influence. And, and then a private donor paid the rest of it that we didn't do on social media. But I'm invested is what I mean. And then our donations. But I got an opportunity to be on the board and I've been serving on the board. And one of the hardest things I got to do is read these hardships. So you submit, you need help. Hardest thing to do, say I need help. You reach some sort of roadblock financially. You can submit a general hardship application through frontonhealingfoundation.org. And you fill out as much as you want to fill out. But it matters because we have to read on the board. We read all the narratives. I look at their D214s. I look at any of their law enforcement post stuff or any of their credentials to make sure that they are say who they say they are. And their bank statements to make sure that they actually are in a financial hardship. We have to scrutinize every dollar that we receive and push out. But one of the hardest things to do just to kind of summarize this is to say no due to lack of funds. So I could read these hardships and I'm like, man, I wish we could help this guy. And we'll try to find a way even though we don't have lack of funds or we have a lack of funds. But last year the numbers don't lie. We were able to pay 700,000 to give 700,000 dollars away to the service members, to the law enforcement, to the first responders to get this life-saving treatment. Some of us need rescuing from ourselves. And I don't want there to be a financial barrier if we can do anything about it. And we can. We're doing it on a small scale. But we received $2.5 million in hardships last year and paid 700. So there is a need. There's a need. And I thought in the beginning of working on the board that it was like the awareness that it was something that the service members, the warriors could apply for, it's not. We got to keep promoting that, but we need to find the people that can financially donate. And it's not these tactables.
They're getting hit up left and right and a lot of what they donate comes out of their marketing Yeah, so it's one of those investments that it's on people for a lot further lives man And I'm not saying that we don't have industry partners that that help we do in a big way But we I have to find a part of my my challenge of being on the board is to Is to create more opportunities more awareness of this organization? And it's outside of Blueberry. It's it's my mission. So that's frontline healing foundation Oh, yeah, this is for you you can leave for the cards to put these back in here for you as you don't cut yourself. All right, you're Are you familiar with mkc stuff? No, is it my tenant? Yeah, actually yep The battle goat. I think it would be you're kind of the goat. You know, I mean you're the cat goat forever Sharpened by Lou quad show by Mac packaged by coal. Thank you gentlemen. I like the packaging. Yeah, awesome 550 cord. Mm-hmm a little bit of cordage there. Yep, little sticker kc This will go good with packaging matters. It really does the unboxing experience if you will matter What is it? A miss R? Oh a smr. You're a younger answer. Yeah, I know the acronym. I don't know what it means don't cut yourself. That is pretty. Yep. It's got the podcast logo lasers on the other side There you go Love it. Thank you. Thank you very much and Montana. I've got me. Thank you so much. This is beautiful for sure It's a good blade. Well, thank you for thank you for making the trip out man and and honestly thank you for Baring the burden of the service that you did for doing the things that you did it's uh Hard to describe It's I'm I can only say that I have an understanding of it because I was proximal to that type of stuff for a little bit But did you took the limited amount of shit that I did and and put it into a different sporting event? You know one thing You're really good at what which is I think a superpower man is Is I understand everything you're saying, but I'm proud of your service man. I'm not saying I'm not proud of my service But the self there's a bit of self that prevents there's also a bit of honesty in there as well. Yes I mean, I tried to be honest about what I did and I didn't do I spent the minimum amount of time at development group Not because I didn't want to stay there longer. I got hurt and the leadership specifically the E9 at the time was being a dick about it So we had a meeting as office and I used Some words that would have caused me to do burpees and in a rock paper rank organization. Yeah, that doesn't work That's the best game ever. Yeah. No, my point is is that right back at you man like I I do appreciate everything You just said it's not lost on me. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing using and doing something with that service But this is this is how I continue to serve though. Yeah, and I think we remind each other In these conversations and anyone listening like this isn't about us or our ego And that's very clear with how you carry yourself and I love that man and I uh, I wish there was Well, I don't wish anything. I'm I'm Keeping myself anchored in that that humility Every day as well Yeah, it's important man. I legitimately want the best for everybody. I want people to accomplish what it is that their goals are I want them to live in a peaceful and prosperous world And I know that the reality is what it takes to do that and I'm glad that there's people who are willing to Go do the things that are necessary to allow that space for others and then yeah, man Well, thank you for letting me spin the time with you. Of course, and tomorrow's gonna be awesome too. Today's just the first day. Absolutely. Hell yeah
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
Leadership effectiveness is deeply rooted in team trust and mutual accountability, not just formal rank or structure.
Asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness, and breaking the culture of self-reliance is essential for sustainable growth.
The military experience reveals that true leadership often emerges from shared hardship and reflection, not official titles.
The term "active shooter" is outdated and misleading; a more inclusive "active threat" framework is needed to avoid paralysis and misjudgment.
Real leadership involves proactive mindset shifts—like "one-up-to-down" thinking—where team members are empowered to plan, question, and grow.
Personal growth includes grieving losses and redefining identity after major life transitions, such as military service.
Entrepreneurs must seek mentorship in areas they lack expertise, especially in scaling while preserving culture and values.
Success is defined not by wealth or status, but by legacy, meaningful relationships, and contributing to others’ lives.
Summary:
The conversation explores core principles of leadership, personal growth, and resilience through military and entrepreneurial experiences. Leadership is shown not to be about hierarchy or titles, but about trust, transparency, and mutual support—especially in high-stress environments like combat or crisis response. The speakers emphasize the importance of asking for help as an act of courage and wisdom, challenging the military and entrepreneurial cultures that prioritize self-sufficiency over collaboration.
A key insight is the need to replace outdated terms like "active shooter" with broader "active threat" frameworks that prevent hesitation and misjudgment in real-time responses. The discussion also highlights personal transformation: overcoming past trauma, managing guilt, and redefining identity after major life events such as military service. In entrepreneurship, scaling requires mentorship and intentional reflection—particularly around values and culture.
Ultimately, success is measured not by financial gain or external achievements, but by the quality of relationships, the impact on others, and the legacy one leaves behind. These themes are interwoven with a deep respect for shared human experience, showing that despite differences in background, most people operate from the same core principles of service, resilience, and connection.
FAQs
The term 'active shooter' is considered a failed term because it's too narrow and can cause indecision paralysis. It doesn't encompass all forms of active threats, such as domestic violence or non-gun-based attacks. A more inclusive term like 'active threat' is needed to better reflect the complexity and variety of situations.
Avoid, deny, defend is more effective because it prioritizes safety and reduces risk. 'Run' can lead to dangerous misdirection, while 'hide' may not provide protection. Avoiding the threat when possible gives more time to respond and minimizes harm to innocent bystanders.
The one-up-to-down mindset means continuously learning how to perform the job above you, while also empowering those below you. It fosters growth, improves team development, and ensures that leadership is built on mutual understanding and support rather than hierarchy.
Military leadership emphasizes teamwork, accountability, and adaptability. These principles translate well into entrepreneurship and law enforcement, where effective leadership is shown through action, shared responsibility, and resilience in high-pressure environments.
Asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. It demonstrates self-awareness and humility, allowing individuals to grow through collaboration and mentorship, especially in areas where they may lack experience or confidence.
True financial success is not measured by accumulating wealth, but by using money to buy time, experiences, and peace of mind. It emphasizes utility over status, and values like family, legacy, and personal growth over material possessions.
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