39. What can negotiators learn from decision science and poker?

Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Powerful Stuff. Powerful Stuff helps you tap into your interconnection with yourself, the outer connection with the world, and doing so while not taking yourself so seriously. And today we have a very special guest, Gerta Malay, co-founder of yournegotiations.com. I actually met Gerta at a female founders and funders dinner organized by my friend, Ali and San Francisco, and we were talking about negotiations there and she was really telling me around the mindset of negotiations, the co-creation, the kind of trusting and the positive outcome. And I just really loved this empowering approach to thinking about negotiations, which so many people can be so scared by. And personally, like, knowing how to negotiate is also knowing how to own our self-worth, which is our personal magnetism, from a place of soft power where we're not strong-arming others, but hopefully empowering everyone for the best outcome. So we're going to go through Gerta's art of negotiations today, but before we do, I just want to give a little intro to our amazing guest and one of our loyal listeners, actually. So it was so cool because she came up to me at the dinner and she was like, "I listen to powerful stuff." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, wow, this is like the first IRL interaction, it was someone coming up to me and saying that, so it was very, very special for me." So Gerta is co-founder of yournegotiations.com, which I mentioned, a negotiations expert on job offers and business deals. She's trained with world-class negotiators from MIT and Harvard Law School and she's developed a deep negotiation expertise in over 10 years, given her previous employment at LinkedIn salary.com. She's had a huge career in big tech. She has worked at startups and also has done some angel investing. She holds a master's in logistics engineering from MIT and in degree in math from Wellesley. And then on the job offers front, which she helps people negotiate. She's helped people increase their initial offer by $93,000, which is like basically someone's whole salary as an addition that's amazing on average and up to $550,000 on top of initial offer. So Gerta's Negotiations Powerhouse Powerful Stuff, as some would say, so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me, Mary. I can't believe I get to be interviewed at my favorite podcast, one of my favorites. Oh my gosh, I'm so honored as well. And I would love to just start off by how did you get into negotiations? What was that spark for you where you're like, I actually really loved it. It's one of those things that you connect the dots looking backwards. The way my husband, Alex and I, we started this company over a year ago, but when I look back, it makes so much sense. So I'm originally from Albania, I grew up there, and it's a very hustle culture. It's a developing country, one funny thing I say about Albania is that we don't like staying in lines. We don't have lines. Now we do. But when I was growing up, it wasn't very common. So you're kind of like elbowing your way into things. And then it's, you know, being a developing country is very, you need to fight for to get things as simple as food. It was very poor before I was born. And so that gave me that sort of internal hustle and desire to get better deals. And then I'm also always been very fascinated with psychology and behavioral sciences. So when I think back to what I was reading in middle school and high school, it was things like negotiation genius or tipping point and economics and things like that. I loved hearing about these studies that showed human psychology and what works and what doesn't work in interactions. And then when I was in undergrad and grad, I took many classes on negotiations and was trained under world class negotiators who had helped negotiate like government stuff. I've been a founder for the last few years. I was a venture back founder at one point and was actually trying to solve the loneliness crisis with a consumer social app, but that didn't work. It was very hard to find a product market fit. But as I was trying to figure out my next thing, Alex and I were thinking, what should we work on next? And we had learned about online education businesses and how powerful they can be. Okay, what could we teach? And I've had a reputation for a while in my community of helping people with like job offer negotiations, rent negotiations or various things. Okay, we should probably teach negotiations. So that's how that was the journey. Wow, I love that so much. And what was your first like experience or one prominent one that sticks out to you of your first kind of trial by fire of negotiating something for yourself and what was like your biggest lesson there? A couple of examples come to mind. I'm because of sort of my readings and just being very immersed into this world. I always negotiated my job offers, even my first one out of college, which you know, it's kind of intimidating. You're like, I have no leverage, but that one went great. I just asked for more. I actually asked for, I think they gave me two weeks of vacation, which if we have any international or European listeners, how can you have only two weeks a year? Oh, I know. It's like crazy. So I negotiated an extra week of vacation and then I negotiated a percentage of more. I just asked. It was as simple as like, Hey, I'm going to be visiting my family in Albania two weeks a year. That's just travel time. They're like, okay, sure, get another week. And then for money, similarly, was something like, is there any chance you could give me a bit more? And they're like, sure. And so that was those my first job out of college with no leverage and no other offers at the time. And then or just to put a pin in that sometimes it's just as simple as asking and people assume like, if this is the rule or, oh, it's two weeks, so why bother asking? And I love this one. Like you said, when you had no leverage, it's like, sometimes it's just as simple as asking nicely. Absolutely. That's one of the core things I teach my clients and my students and sometimes you just have to ask. And then the next thing is you want to be a little gently persistent and maybe you ask a couple more times, it's okay. Those are some of the principles. And then the other thing is maybe along similar lines, just not stopping yourself from something because you think it's impossible. So I helped someone. They were buying a home and I was helping with various negotiations. I negotiated lawyer fees and negotiated home inspection fees. And the real estate agent was like, wow, I didn't know you could negotiate those. So the person who's supposed to tell you what to do and what to negotiate. So I was surprised, again, it's wild, what and how many things you could negotiate. Yeah, not assuming things are set in stone, but rather like, what if I ask, I love that so much. And then what is a time where like a negotiation didn't go well, but you had like a deep learning from it, whether it was for you or for someone else or just like a faux pas that happened that ended up being like a huge takeaway of like, I'm always going to remember this. I'm trying to think of a good example, but more broadly, but sometimes you ask very nicely. I've heard this from other people and the other party could just overreact to even though you asked like very nicely, they absolutely overreact. Some people tell me stories of this company with drew my application because I asked. Now none of my clients have had that happen because I always tell them you want to ask very gently and nicely and professionally, it wouldn't make sense for them to retract the offer if you ask in that way. But some people will overreact and the takeaway is you have dodged a big bullet there. If you imagine if I come to you, Mary, I'm like, would you mind if you know ABC, we start this interview later or whatever and you can simply say no. But if you're like, no, I'm just not going to interview you at all. Okay, that's another reaction. I probably it's probably for the best that we don't engage. Right. Yes, that's so true of like rather than if somebody does have an overreaction rather than going into like people pleasing mode or trying to prove to them, it's like this is actually an indication of what it would be like to have a longer standing relationship with them. So it's like you can keep the power or the ball in your court by being like, do I even want to work with someone or engage with someone if this is going to be their reaction? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Rather than feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. I love that so much because it keeps you rooted in your own self-worth and I was going to say maybe before we go into some tactical steps of negotiations, if we could just talk a little bit about like what I love about your negotiation tactics is so much of the mindset and the energetics around it. So yeah, could you share kind of some of the stuff that you coach your clients on kind of just like that foundational energetics of negotiation and things they can do internally before they even say anything to someone else, like just the mindset that they should cultivate going into it? Yeah, I feel like a lot of my job is to debunk a lot of myths that are out there. I guess I can combine these two questions. One of the things that backfires is people taking things personally and also playing difficult in negotiations. You want to have your own mindset of I'm not gonna take things personally and this is just the job market right now or this is just a business deal. And also you don't have to play difficult in negotiations, it actually needs to be very collaborative. So you go into the negotiation deal with the mindset of we're in this together, we both want to make it work. Let's think of ways how to make it work that we're both happy with. So those are some initial mindset that I coach people around for the job market aspect. It's a very tough job market now and in the last couple of years, especially with the tech layoffs and all that, the economy and it's so easy to get wrapped up in that feeling defeated and feeling like I was making so much of this other company and I felt so respected and now this offer is so much lower. But when you bring that positivity and collaboration mindset into it, people will want to work with you and you're more likely to get the offer and get a better offer. Those are some initial thoughts. Yeah, the positivity mindset for sure and like the co-creation and I love what you said there because it's actually kind of, you know, how I went into negotiating with my co-founder around like what our transition would look like for more of that and powerful stuff. And we've come to a really great place and I'll still be involved with more of that. But when we went into it, it was kind of like setting the tone of, we're both, we both love each other. We both were committed to having these conversations, however difficult they might be until we both feel happy with the outcome and it's what's best for us and it's what's best for more of that and it's what's best for powerful stuff. So like keeping that at the center of our hearts and like starting each conversation and ending each conversation, reaffirming that, I think helped lower my stress and anxiety level so much, especially because it was a good friend and it is a good friend that I had started a company with and yeah, I just think like that tone versus like I need to be up in arms and on the defense and like all of that, which would have made it like a lot more like nasty and kind of like disregarding all the love that we had for each other and half for each other. Yeah, I love that and even in the business world you can have that same approach and again people want to work with people who want to be there and people who are nice to work with and pleasant to work with, that helps, that mindset helps in ways that can translate into tangible ways. And how do you, are there any like tactics that you go through with your clients to like get them to that positive place or to help them not take things personally? Yeah, and I can speak to that too a little bit just from like the coaching perspective, but I'm curious like what you, if you do have a client where it does feel deeply personal or maybe maybe it is like somebody who they already know like what are some things that you remind them of or help them anchor into to be able to like sit in that and the heat of the negotiation. Yeah, I joke that half my job is being a bit of a therapist to my clients because there's a lot of validation like I say things like it is a tough market out there. People are getting low-bought, a lot of companies are low-balling people. It's not personal. I promise to you and I'm seeing this in the market, things like that and also actually explaining that if you are collaborative and positive and nice and professional, whoever you're negotiating with, they're more likely to advocate for you to their decision-makers. And I have this expression we love in our company, it's you catch more flies with honey and I really like that, I don't know about you, but I feel like in the culture, when you hear negotiations you think of the show suits or lawyers and business deals, everyone's buttoned up and they're very tough negotiators, they they they've strong army into doing what they want and I want to move away from that and think about it more in a collaborative way as I said, positive, creative, it can be very, very creative, I would love to talk about that more. Yeah, I love that because I do feel like energetically it's like the feminine touch to it, like what I like to call soft power, which is like power through empathy and emotional intelligence. And like you said, like working with people and assuming best intentions and bringing out their best intentions, while also having firm boundaries and it's so true because I think we think of like suits or like macho men, like hostage negotiators when we think of negotiation, like you said, it can be collaborative, it can be creative, it can be empathetic. Yeah, I would love to hear like what the creative elements are and then we can kind of from there go through the arc of a negotiation in these different scenarios and kind of break down the steps for our listener to call forth an example that they want to workshop. Yeah, one thing that comes to mind is in the context of job offers, it could be that the company might have been looking for a while and they need someone to start as soon as possible or they have an important deadline or project and then for you, maybe you want to take some time off, but more money is better. This is how you care about two different things and you can do a trade. The way to be collaborative is trying to figure out what the other party cares about, so it could be something like, hey, is there any chance you have a room in your budget? I'm happy to maybe start earlier or I don't know, like it could be something else. Like we'll come in the office more often or things like that and then the company realizes, oh, yeah, we actually would love for you to start earlier. We're happy to throw in a bit more money. So that's one example where you are maybe showing your cards just a little bit and then you're being collaborative and you're being creative and the ways in which you can give them something and get something in return. I love that. I realize I say I'm saying I love that a lot because I'm just loving everything you're saying. What are some questions that people could ask to kind of figure out what the other person wants? Actually, if I can answer a slightly different question very quickly, you asked earlier about preparation before you even go into the negotiation deal. The most important question to ask yourself is what are my priorities and what are my non-negotiables? So in the job context, you would think it's money, right, generally people think of salary. But when I probe my clients, it very often is not money, the main priority. It could be things like title. They wouldn't take a lower title than they had at their last job, which is interesting because title is not necessarily one-to-one with pay. You can actually have a lower title, the higher pay than you had at your last job, but we've made that happen with some of my clients. And then it could be things like flexibility of work from home, commute, team culture and things like that. It's very important for people to go into the negotiation, having a very clear understanding of their priorities in order of priority, but also which of those are non-negotiable because you want to immediately talk about the non-negotiables again because you don't want to have gone through the entire negotiation. You're like, "Oh, actually, I wouldn't take a lower title." And then they're like, "Oh, we're not giving a higher title." And then you wasted each other's time. I guess to answer your original question, if you have identified some non-negotiables, those could be some questions. If you're not negotiable, I need to work from home, I don't know, twice a week. And I will not take a lower title. Then you can immediately ask, "Hey, what's your work from home policy?" And I wanted to double check if the title is this one. The reason I mentioned that is because, again, this is an employer's market right now, and a lot of companies are going back on their original offers or their postings. And sometimes the offer people end up with is a lower title, a lower pay than what the company had posted. Unfortunately, they actually want to double check that up front. Yeah, that's great because also I love how you frame it as a question, like assuming best intent rather than saying, "You're non-negotiable of just so you know, I'm only going to work from home." It's like, "Hi, I'm curious. What is your work from home policy?" Just double checking the title, it's that underlying, assuming best intent versus being on the defense of stating, "This is my own." Yeah. I actually have a personal example on this, so when I first moved to San Francisco, I got an offer from LinkedIn, but the job description said, "This position is based out of Sunny ville. Non-negotiable." It even said that, "Absolutely not SF." And I just happened to be living across the street from the San Francisco office, and I also get extremely cursing. So imagine my commute, if I had been based out of the Sunnyvale office, would be an hour and a half on a bus and a shuttle each way. So this is a waste of time and the health risk. So as we're negotiating and wrapping up, I ask the recorded, "Is there any chance at all? I know it's not on the job description that the role is based in Sunnyvale, but I happen to live literally across the street from the SF office. It would save me three hours of commute, I can put that time into work. Is there any chance I can just work out of there maybe one Friday a month?" And this is before COVID, so work from home was in this comment. And it turned out she was like, "Actually, our team is now split between Sunnyvale and SF, because there's more people that we've hired in SF, so you could actually be based out of SF." And that was, that was one of those things I'm so glad I asked, and when I share this example with certain groups, they're like, "Oh, I would never question the job description. People would say, "Can you not read?" It was so clear there that this was non-negotiable, but it doesn't hurt to ask, and though, especially if you phrase it in a way where it's like, "I'm just sharing this would be beneficial for both of us." It was, I'm very proud that I asked. Yeah, and that you made it kind of like a no-brainer for them, you're like all of that time that I would be commuting, you would actually get like, you know, three hours of more work for me in place of that commute, doesn't that sound great? Exactly. You always want to phrase it in a, "What's in it for them?" Way, it's less about what's in it for you, but it's good to be a little vulnerable and share your side of it. So I did. I'm like, "I get very car sick. This would really help me, but also I can put that time into the work." So what is the balance or art, and we'll kind of go through these again when we go through the tactical steps? What is the balance or art of knowing how much to be vulnerable and knowing when to reveal some of your cards? Because I know there's like some negotiation, people like that never split the difference guy who says like a certain person should go first or drop your number first or like, so what's your kind of thoughts on like how to be vulnerable when and when you should kind of state your thing versus like, hearing what they expect to pay you or if it's like a co-founder negotiation, like what their equity split is versus like you going first, etc. Yeah, there's a lot of questions within that one question. So maybe to address one of them, the main one which is, "Do you give your number first?" In the job offer setting, you never want to give a number first. And that's because you could be giving a lower number than their budget, and now you left money on the table or you could be giving a higher number than their budget and you could be turning them off. That's because it's an uneven information. There's like an information disparity, yeah. And so they have all the employers, even small startups, they have access to employer-reported compensation data, they have access to advisors, investors, mentors, company has so much information, they know their budget, you as a job applicant, it's extremely unlikely, unless your compensation professional, have a master's in compensation or whatever, you don't know exactly how much you should be paid because of the market dynamics and all the information that I mentioned. And even if you are an expert in compensation somehow, you don't know their budget, every team has their own budget for an open role, and it could be higher or lower than the market based on their priorities. So because you don't have visibility into that at all, mathematically doesn't make sense to give the first your number first. And you just want to navigate that in a very obviously professional and cordial way. So you can simply say, I don't have a number in mind, curious what your data shows and what your budget is. And I have like five other things you could be saying, but not having, I actually recommend when we talked about mindset, I recommend people don't have a number in mind. That's the best way to be able to answer this truthfully. And then even if they're like, no, you go first, you're like, no, honestly, you go first. I've actually done this with many recruiters when I was applying to jobs myself throughout my career. I would just say, I genuinely don't have a number in mind or I would prefer that we talk about the work and see if it's a mutually good fit for us. And then we can talk compensation later. And then we would go back and for some companies are very persistent and it's, I like it, it's fun. It can be stressful as well. This has happened to me with at least three companies where we did this dance. I'm like, I genuinely don't have a number and then they start laughing after a while because they knew I know the game of not giving a number. So I know I can't. They gave in. Sorry. Did they eventually give in? Well, of course. Yeah, because I mean, that's the game, right? The game is you don't want to, you don't want to give a number. And once they know that you know how to play it, they laughed like three of them. It was actually so funny. And then I've been on the hiring side of things and I feel so bad. It breaks my heart when I see the candidate share a number proactively. I never ask, but some people share making this much of this job. Like, oh, you should not share it. Sometimes I don't take the note just to give back the leverage to them. And it's also a good look for you too if you're not, if they know that you're playing the game because then they're like this person smart. And if she can negotiate with us, then she can negotiate on behalf of us, you know? Absolutely. Yes. One of my toughest managers I've ever had, I negotiated my job offer. I didn't know. She was going to be so tough later on, but she actually complimented me a few months into the roles. She's like, you negotiated really well the job offer. And she gave me some very exciting deals and multimillion dollar contracts to negotiate because I had sort of, in a way, proven myself as a good negotiator doing the job offer. I love that. Oh, yeah. And I feel like it kind of goes back to like owning our worth from the inside out. And it's like, sometimes we know we're in our zone of genius. We have a lot to offer in a job role or whatever it might be. And it truly does invite us to step into our inner worth by like owning that. And as I know in the coaching industry, I know a lot of other coaches myself included in the earlier days that really struggle putting a number or a price tag on their coaching service because that's also literally, you know, you're getting paid for your value and what you bring to the table for somebody else. Yeah. And it's also like as hard or uncomfortable as it might be. It's also like the first step in showing someone like, I know my worth. I have these boundaries. I can say it respectfully. Yeah. Yeah. And you're either willing to meet me here or you're not. But then when you cave or you're acting sheepish about it, it also kind of can feel like you're not fully rooted in your worth or your value offer. Yeah. And for coaches, I actually and consultants, I have a recommendation. I would encourage you to try out asking for someone's budget before you give a number of your hourly rate. Just in case you would be surprised. I have some examples where navigating things in this way. We've been surprised. I would love to hear because I think that there's a lot of solopreneur, yeah, loyal listeners who would be very curious to hear this kind of side of the negotiation as well, especially when as a coach, you want to have a set price. But everyone kind of knows that it's, you know, subjective based on like your time, your value, how in demand you are, et cetera. Yeah. This example was going to be still in the job offer context. Maybe okay, to mention actual numbers, I don't want to really, okay, cuz my, all my clients are mid-level and execs in tight biotech, finance and all that. So the numbers can be a little intimidating, but I had a client who was making 220k at meta and she got an offer for 200k and she was like, this is pretty good. Again, this was in middle of layoffs and the scary market and she's like, this is pretty good. Can I just ask them to match my 220 from meta and then I'm happy to sign. I was like, let's just keep playing one more time, the open ended, you have more room in your budget thing, you don't give a specific number. She's like, okay, so she asked them and they came back with 240k. She would have missed out on the extra 20k if she had asked for a specific number. That's one example that comes to mind. I highly recommend, and then if you just so happen to, if they're low-balling you, you can always say things like, hey, well, my research shows this or my last client made this, then you can sort of come out of that with some more tangible examples, but you never know what their first number could be, so I strongly recommend trying that out. Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question and it's like they come back with a disappointing number. Yeah, let's say that if they came back with like 205 or something, they're like, oh, my last job was to 20 and each ends, you can match that or would you mind throwing in another 15k, 20k? You can still ask just because they come back with something disappointing doesn't mean that's the end. Right, so it's not taking it as a final answer, but yeah, but being like, okay, they might have expected that, or they might have been starting low because they know that it won't be the ending number, so I might as well try. And then I guess going back to like the coaching example, let's say like when you are a coach or a solo pre-norer or consultant, when it's kind of like they expect you to have a set price, how would you recommend navigating that because you could ask like, what is your budget? And then I guess like tailor it or be like, well, I usually charge this, but for that amount we could do this. And this is what you would get for the full amount, or like, how do you, what do you recommend to triage there? Yeah, there's a lot to play with. It could be if someone is maybe saying a very low number, you could say, oh, actually, you know, I have this expertise and the market shows that for that, typically people are charging this much. And then you can also break down your offerings. I can take myself as an example. So I can review offer letters, I can coach one on one, I can do one hour calls and things like that. So their price is pretty low, I'm like, okay, if that's your budget, I could do like a, I don't know, half an hour call, but you will get more value from a three hour call with me and something like that. So you're still, don't take offense, don't take it personally and kind of like educate them. A lot of people, a lot of clients probably don't know what the prices are out there or like what the different offerings are and what your value add is. So you can just kind of pull them out of the number they gave you and you can either say, this is what you get for that or maybe you want this other suite of offerings. Yeah. That's great. It reminds me earlier on in my career too and I do do corporate stuff now like with companies and whatnot, but like I didn't really have because I was just in the coaching world like as much of a context for like how much companies are willing to pay and startups are different than corporate companies and so if there was one time that I way undershot what I should be or like somebody was like, oh, well, what would you put together a budget for us of how much it would cost to have you do this thing for our team? And I like way underballed it, which made me seem like really inexperienced. And then the horrible thing about that, but then we all learn and grow. And I love and forgive myself, is that then I had the pendulum swing the next time. I was like, oh my gosh, I thought I was inexperienced and I'm professional. So the next time someone asked me, I maybe gave like double what my gut was telling me and then they were like, this is way too much. We don't have budget for this. And they rather than even negotiate with me, they actually just then started a pulsing a few other executive coaches and found another coach before they even, before we even had another dialogue of, or I had said them, when they said that's too much, I was like, oh, well, like what, you know, I want to work with you on this. And so yeah, just curious, you know, I don't want to be handled that I know. They're the learning experiences. Yeah, exhibit AMB while you don't want to give the first number, yes. Yeah, exactly. But put together your budget for this, because that was like over email. Should I, I should have just been like, well, how much do you guys have in budget? And then I can tell you what I offer based on. Yeah, there's different ways you can navigate that you can say, here's a list of my offerings. What is your budget for this? You can ask, how much have you paid a recent coach or a previous coach? You can say, well, there's a range of coaching in the market. You can kind of probe. You can like, you know, coaches in the market nowadays, the education piece, they're charging between this much and this much, the side of the range where you have more open to. So you can like probe in different ways without necessarily saying, I charge this much, because that's a fixed number and it can be scary. So you want to work around that. Yeah, definitely. And I guess like the second example was like the same thing of like, how much is in your budget for this experience and let me see if that works with like my offerings. Yeah. But it was just so funny, because I got like shot in the foot from the low end and the high end. And yeah, I've definitely learned my lesson since. And to be clear of everybody listening to it's like with coaching, I know it's so subjective. But it's what I try to help my solopreneur clients or other coaches who I coach with now, which is just like really owning and believing in the value of what we are offering and trusting in like how what type of client would feel good for what amount of time and as our schedule starts to fill up like energetically, how good does it feel to hold space for one client or for a company offsite and like kind of, yeah, checking in with your intuition of what amount would make you feel resentful to do that based on like how big your workload is and like what type of energy you would be or space you would be holding for that person or people. Yeah, that's a great point. It comes back to you need to know your own priorities and non-negotiables before you go into the deal. So like you said, know what what amount would be it would make you resentful. Like, of course, what's your walk away point, yeah. And how do you navigate like kind of what we just talked about? But let's say it's like an equity conversation or like the formation of a company or the break up of a company, does anything change or do all of these kind of remain the same? Like if you are going into a company with a friend or getting out of a company with a friend or just regular business partner, does it change when you're like giving an equity number? There's a lot of transfer, transfer ability from one approach to another. You want to be very crystal clear with yourself. For me, when I was negotiating equity with a previous co-founder, I didn't want less than roughly in my mind, I didn't share this, but I didn't want less than 25, 30% just because it's a long journey and you give away a lot of your equity along the way and you want to have skin in the game and you can use those arguments with the other side as well. You can say, I want to be an equal partner in this because I want to put my whole self into this. I'm very committed. I will sacrifice a lot, so I want to have a good skin in the game and that's a good argument. If I were to bring someone in as a co-founder, if I hear they're like, I want more equity because I want to have skin in the game and this be my baby too, I'm like, yeah, that's a great point. There's that. There's a collaborative aspect of it. Because I think of negotiations as infinite games, if you've heard that term, finite games or infinite games, the world is so small, you will cross paths with people again. It's not about squeezing every cent out of the deal. You want to keep the relationship in mind. You want to keep the deal, prioritize the deal for it to go through with equity. It doesn't necessarily have to be 50/50. If anything, actually, there's a lot of advice out there that says not to make it 50/50 because one person needs to have the final say and you don't want to be caught in a cross-terode all the time. If you disagree. Yeah, I love it. Like the idea of the infinite game because bringing it back to our powerful stuff spirituality abundance truly is everywhere. And like I do believe there's room at the top for everyone and like you are saying, it's like, yeah, if we believe all cross paths again or that, you know, things could change in the future. And that's why too with like my, you know, current agreement around like our transition of more of that and powerful stuff and like, this is what I'm willing to do and let's check in, like in this negotiation, let's check in at the three month mark before I, like before we sign anything and make sure that we're both keeping up our end of the deal. It still feels really good for both of us and then at which point we'll carry out the rest of the transition and finalize it. But also just having kind of like a little bit of that trial period or not meeting everything to be finalized immediately and kind of having trust in that. Then I think incentivized us both, although we would do it out of the goodness of our hearts because we love each other anyways, but like to make it a win-win for the other person. So when the three months come along, both of us are like, yeah, it still feels really good. So then it's kind of like the, or I don't know if this is the nash equal of room, but the idea of like both of us wanting it to be the best scenario for the other person. So then we're both like trying to make that happen because then it benefits us too. Yeah, I like that a lot. And the other side of that is also, especially if it's a BC back start up, it will probably be a very long journey, seven, ten years. And if you're contributing unevenly at the beginning, maybe someone put a few thousand dollars in the business and someone didn't, you know, over the long run, it will not matter as much in seven, ten years. So there's also that aspect of it. I've actually, I don't want to reveal too much, but I've actually been so inspired by our mutual friend Sam. We talked about how she handled her equity negotiations with her co-founder and he was so beautiful. As she said, I don't want to sort of reveal her own personal stuff, but it was, it came from such a beautiful place in her heart. I think she said something like, you know, I want someone who is all in on this with me. And even though she had invested a lot of time and effort already, when she brought someone in, I think she was very fair in how she split the company and I was very inspired by it. Yeah, that belief of like, we have like a smaller piece of a bigger pie versus like you said squeezing or like power dynamics or I was even listening to this other podcast outside of powerful stuff. I know it's crazy to believe yesterday. And this guy was like the richest people in the world. Some of the richest people in the world are the most generous because it's like they know that like they get to the top through like other people helping them and and vice versa. And so it's like that kind of generosity of like, I'm here to help you and everyone wins and people end up helping you more and then you end up becoming better off for that versus like, oh, I need to be defensive around this person because they they try to squeeze every dime out of me or whatever. Yeah, for sure. I actually do this with, I obviously negotiate all contracts, including my phone contract, my rent, concert tickets and all that, but when I'm negotiating, especially with a support team, a member, I say something like, you've been so wonderful to work with. I'm happy to leave a review or call your manager or write an email for your manager and just sort of like rewarding generous behavior. I'm sorry, I strongly recommend that approach. Yeah, it's rewarding dinner behavior. And it's like that they feel relaxed because they know that you have their best interests at heart and that they don't need to be like on the defense around that. And yeah, I try to think about that and everything and it kind of comes back to like, yeah, trusting in like the goodness and the intentions of others. And at the same time, like not taking initial reactions personally, and that's what I kept reminding myself and in past negotiations, whether it was equity or co-founder stuff or whatever, it's like someone's initial reaction isn't always their ending reaction and they're allowed to have that. And that's why it's good to also like, or at least for me in those scenarios, being like, okay, well, why don't you sit with this and let's talk about it in a day or two or whatever and not taking it as like their final answer, but just being like, they're having a human reaction. And it's not personal. And also when they bring something to my attention that I find shocking or internally triggering to kind of remain stoic and let like approach it with curiosity of like, oh, I'm curious. Like, where is that coming from or why is that important to you versus getting defensive and internally? I want to say like, no, I'm never doing that. But instead being like, yeah, I'm curious where that's coming from. I need to sit with that. Let me think about it versus feeling like sometimes they feel like when people are given a number or something that they feel the need to immediately respond. And I think that's been one of my biggest learnings too of like saying like, let me sit with that and not responding immediately and truly like sitting with it, getting a few opinions on it, just sleeping on it. Yeah, absolutely. You touched on some very important points. One is that I get asked a lot, is there any time I shouldn't negotiate and I say, you should actually always negotiate. Well, one is it doesn't hurt to ask, especially if you're doing it in a nice and professional way. The other piece is more practically in the job offers sense. The first offer is pretty much guaranteed to never be the final offer. That's because companies expect candidates to negotiate. At least one candidate out there will negotiate because they might have other offers and they can decide. So they will ask the companies if they can match each other's offers. So because they expect candidates to negotiate, they leave some room in their budget to give you more as a sign of like, we really want you. So if you're not negotiating, you're pretty much guaranteed to be leaving money on the table. That's one. And then you touched on something else towards the end. I was trying to, I'm trying to remember now, but I forgot. The trusting that their reaction won't be the same, maybe long term or giving it space not responding immediately. Yes, yes. A couple points here, one is that silence is such a powerful tool in negotiations. A lot of people are not comfortable with silence, so they will try to fill it. So when you're negotiating and let's say I give you maybe a number and you're like, you're just sitting there or maybe you say, let me think about it. Now I'm nervous. Oh no, it's marriage is going to decline us or something. Then I want to fill it. Actually, let me give you another X percent because I'm nervous, you're just going to leave the deal. So silence is very powerful. And then just to put my nerdy hat on very quickly, because I love mass and have a degree in mass, the probability of you having the right response on the spot when you are being made an offer or are negotiating live is very small. If you take time, you're giving yourself more time to have the right response to the negotiation move versus that slice in time for your response to be the perfect one right there. It's a very small probability. So you actually want to take the time. Do you have any other just like cool little like probabilities or statistics about negotiation that you can share with the powerful stuff, fam? I have a counter intuitive thing as much as I love numbers in the job offer context. I actually don't think it's a good use of a candidate's time to go and do all the research out there. It's very counter intuitive because a lot of like I said, our clients are mid level to execs and so they love numbers and many of them have MBAs and they're just going and researching. The reason why they don't matter is one, as a candidate, you don't have access to real market data, the employer reported data is actually very expensive to have access to. It's what companies paid tens of thousands of dollars and to have access to it's things like carda or salary.com and LinkedIn has salary data. So your data is probably not correct to begin with and then second, it doesn't matter because each role has a budget attached to it and they have their own reasons why they're paying this much. It could be, as I mentioned earlier, it could be they have some time pressure. Maybe they want to get a project started as soon as possible so it will throw more money at this candidate to have them say yes or it could be that they don't have any pressure and like, oh, it would be nice to fill this role, it's a new role but we don't have to fill it. So maybe it's a smaller budget for whatever reason and so we don't have that visibility and the market data, you can go to a company and say, this is what the market shows, you should be paying you this much and they're like, well, our budget is not there and you've spent hours researching. So, yeah, it's kind of wild because my instinct is to do all the research and find all the numbers but I recommend not to do that. So it's almost like going in blind and kind of seeing what they offer and then checking in with yourself is something I'm willing to do. And then I think it's interesting to consider if they really do have a certain salary that you were expecting higher but that's literally like not what they can pay you. And how do you negotiate like the, I don't want to say like the freebies but like, okay, I'm willing to do this lower salary for you but then can you match me with these vacation days or this equity or how do you negotiate like that second round where like maybe they actually couldn't meet your salary request or something but how do you kind of like get the leverage back for like other things that yeah that you want to have. So let me zoom out a bit and share the bigger picture of the strategy that I'm recommending because there's a missing piece to see the whole thing. So you come in, you don't give a number, you let them say the first number because your number might be too low, you leave money on the table or too high and you're turning them off. Then you negotiate through open-ended questions because you don't know the top of their budget and they're not going to, there's no way to know unless you have someone on the team and they shouldn't be sharing with you. There's no way for you to know the top of the budget. The only way to know is if they say some magic words which is, this is our best and final offer. And then to your question around what do we do if, let's say they say this is our best and final and it sort of falls short of your expectations, I would say keep that list of priorities in mind, move down the list so, okay, you negotiated cash or equity and all that and then maybe now you care about where from home or travel reimbursement or something like that. Then you can go down that list. Amazing. Yeah, I, and what do you do if like you've reached a stalemate like, or I guess maybe that's kind of going back to what we said earlier of like, are they the best company to work for? Because I think some people maybe then settle or like, I guess that's that or like you said, it's like a tough job market or for whatever reason, but like, yeah, the salaries lower than expected. Maybe they're not budging on the other stuff and you're starting to be like, should I just say yes, but then it feels like maybe more resentful or you're not in that position of power. So like, how do you think about then making that decision if you should work with them for kind of like reclaiming your own power in that situation? Yeah, that's a very personal decision. It depends what your savings or priorities are in a family sense, but what I recommend in that context is, and actually I always recommend this, get another offer and it doesn't have to be competitive to this first company that you're excited about. Of course, it can to be completely out of left field, but it needs to be somewhat in, let's say, if you're applying to tech, it could be in tech, but it doesn't have to be the best offer ever. And the reason is, there's a couple reasons. One is just saying that you have another offer makes you more confident. You are handling the negotiation from a very different mindset. Companies can read through that, they negotiate day in and day out, they can really read a candidate and can tell if you do actually have another offer or not. And of course, this goes without saying, but you don't want to lie about having another offer. Of course, it's unethical, but also they can read that. It's a lot of micro expressions that show up. And so get another offer for your own confidence. It also unlocks new mechanisms in the companies. Once you stay, you have another offer, they don't want to lose you. They have spent a lot of time interviewing you and they like you and all that, so it does that. It generally opens up new budget. And then the other piece is, this actually happened to my husband, Alex, where he actually fell in love with the second company. And so he was, okay, I'll get another offer just for it because he told me to. That's a lot of leverage for that leverage and no, I'm in demand, I get the voice. It was actually for his type of role, you had to do take home exams and it would take tens of, you know, at least 10 hours. So it was, there was a cost to it. Of course, it's a cost to getting another offer. There's so much time and effort, but he ended up falling in love with that second company. And that's the offer he went with. So you're also giving yourself more optionality in the event you do, like the second offer more. I love it. No, I don't think of an element. Oh my god. And what is before we go into like kind of like breaking down our steps for the powerful stuff listeners, what are some like personal examples that you can think of when, how negotiation comes into play? We've talked about, you know, founders and companies and, and, um, whatnot, but, yeah, do you find like your clients or yourself using it like with your husband and or friends or family or what are some like kind of interesting parallels that have shown up for you or others? Yeah. I negotiate everything that I negotiate. Obviously rent. I didn't know some people didn't even think to negotiate the rent. I live in San Francisco and I have always had a wave along market rent, even though SF is so expensive. I'm just a pause there because I'm sure everyone would like to know how to do that. What are a few of your main like quick tips of things to say or what to, what to focus? So interesting. How there, there is a lot of transferable tips that I've already mentioned. So get another offer, find another similar place you could be staying and then be gently persistent, be very collaborative, expand the pie. So something like a managed building and so I say things like I would love to refer friends here. I have so many friends who want to live near us and I'm happy to refer them or offer something like I can write a good review on Google Maps and Yelp and things like that. So offer things they might care about or if you're negotiating with a specific person you can say I'm happy to you know tell your manager how great you were to work with things along those lines. So whatever you can offer, just maybe list as many things as you can. What's in it for them or just curious because like usually there is like that set price they say or or in like LARSF sometimes there's like a lot of people applying to live in the same place. So how would you manage it then or what are some questions or things you could do in that scenario, especially when they're like this is the rent and you have a lot of other applicants. This actually happened to me, you know, sometimes in negotiations they say ask for a bit more and you'll probably land in the middle. So my building had a four weeks for free concession, when I first moved here five years ago. I'm currently at a different building, but anyway they had four weeks for free and I go there to negotiate because what I do in my mind I'm gonna ask for eight weeks and I will like ideally we land at six, but they actually said yes to eight. So I ended up living at this beautiful place with almost two months for free. They just said yes at eight, eight weeks for free. So I love this. I would love to move in. Can I have eight weeks free instead of two or four? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You would be surprised how much you can get just by asking. It's so wild. I strongly recommend maybe as a takeaway, I recommend to the listeners, just go around asking for things maybe today or in the next few days. Just ask for a favor here and there, go back to your original question and negotiate airline seats. So I do that. Now are you getting to the juice of it? I just go to the counter and I say is there any chance? So I give very emotion sickness as I mentioned. So is there any chance you have an open seat towards the front because it makes me a little less sick? That's it. That's all you can say. People want to help. And I always try to help in back so maybe with an airplane, I sometimes maybe bring snacks for the staff and things like that. What else do I negotiate? Oh, I negotiate concert tickets. I'm so excited. Oh my gosh, get me an Ares tour ticket for $50, that would be amazing. Yeah, I will typically just get like an average price and then maybe they'll go to the counter and try to sort of get to a better seat or you could just go to the better seat if it's empty. What happens if somebody comes and they're like this isn't your seat? Then you go back. But it's okay. But it's so rare. Anytime the concert was sold out, this was in Boston actually, I was just walking around with a friend in Boston and it was I think it was Brian Adams and there was just outside and like, oh my gosh, it's Brian Adams. Can we get in? There were no tickets and we just talked to the people at the door and like, is there any chance you can let us in? We love this artist and it's sold out. I don't know where to get tickets right now and they're like, okay, sure. At first they said no, no, man, it's not allowed. Okay, and then just staying there, this is the persistence side but also being nice and cordial and just we just stood outside for a bit like, are you sure? Do you mind just like letting us in? Okay, sure. Get in. That's so great. So it's yeah, just like persistence, assuming best intentions and I'm also hearing like you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Absolutely. Like what you said with like the concert tickets and just going to that seat, like then they just ask you to move and then you go back, but I think people are so afraid of like rejection that they don't do that and I was going to ask like, do you personally, I mean, I have my own things I can say about rejection, but like do you personally have something that helps clients or people get over that fear of like rejected or if I ask and what does they say no? One thing that I tell my clients is especially for women, women have a hard time negotiating because we've been socialized not to negotiate and we actually do get penalized when we negotiate. We're seen as more aggressive and all that. What I say is the money you're leaving on the table, think of it as it could have gone to your kids or your parents because we have a hard time advocating for ourselves. And so if you think of it as if I don't get this extra, I don't know, 10k, this could have gone to a birthday party for my kid or a trip and a gift and some savings for my mom and things like that. That really helps. I use it for myself. I use that mindset for myself when I go into like, I'm actually advocating for the people I love because this money could go for them. That really helps. So you're afraid of rejection or you could be making X amount more for someone you love. And then the trade off is so different. Yeah. Yeah, putting making it bigger than you and I always also tell my clients like it's never rejection. It's just a redirection in the sense of like what's meant for you won't miss you. And if you're meant to work at that job and you're going to feel valued and trusting that everything's in alignment, like you'll work at that job and if it doesn't work out with them or they just don't have the budget or they're kind of like nasty in the negotiations or whatever, it's like then something even better is coming along. And so like you kind of said earlier, it's like then you it's like, oh, I'm grateful I dodged a bullet, but I wouldn't have known that had I not put myself out there and kind of saw how they reacted. Yeah. Another thing is, are you familiar with Annie Duke? She's actually a professional poker player because she was getting a PhD in I want to say psychology at University of Pennsylvania at one point and she had a health issue and she needed to make money. And so she went into poker. And now she's a world famous poker player and she's written some books on decision making. But one thing that changed my life, one concept that she talks about is this concept of resulting. Resulting is when you put a value on your decisions based on the outcome and we shouldn't be doing that. So for example, the way this has helped me in negotiations is I'm going to make the ask either way. If I get a no, that doesn't mean I shouldn't have asked it. If I get a no, and I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have asked, that's resulting because you're valuing your decision based on the outcome, which we shouldn't do. You could get a no, of course, we can get a no anytime. I hope I explained that in a clear way. Yeah. So it's like focusing on your inputs versus your output, like being being grateful that you did it, that you did the thing of asking versus like something that we can't control, which is their response. Yeah, exactly. And the way I do the prep beforehand is I will probably get a no, but I'd rather ask because if I get a yes, that's so much value to me. It's almost like an expected value formula, where the yes is so valuable to me. The no, it's just a little bit of awkwardness on the spot. So I might as well ask. Yeah. Carolyn Elliott, who are existential kink, who I mentioned a lot in powerful stuff, also says like you should kind of go on a rejection spree, where you put yourself out there for a lot of things that you assume you'll get a no in because inevitably statistically, like if you do it for like 100 things, you'll probably get a yes somewhere and B, it'll desensitize you to hearing no, and you'll just like get such a stronger muscle on asking for things that might have felt out of your comfort zone before, but it'll help you become less affected by hearing a no. And so she actually has a rejection challenge where you try to seek out jobs that you don't feel qualified for or people that feel out of your league and be okay with hearing no because it'll give you so much more power and strength and resilience and chances are you actually will get a yes or expand beyond where you would be otherwise. Yeah, and to add a personal touch to that, I actually pursued my husband, a very shy person. I grew up in Albania and we have even more traditional gender roles than in the U.S. and they say you never want to pursue a man, you're a woman, they should be pursuing you, but I had met him and I'd seen how wholesome and wonderful he is, and he's also very shy, he wasn't making moves, this was back in college, we were so young, and I reached out to him multiple times and now I'm so glad I did, but I had to really move outside my comfort zone. I think my 21-year-old self every day that I took a 10. What was it that kept you going when you didn't get an initial response from him? He is the most wholesome person I've ever met. He lights up every room and his energy is just undeniable, the positivity that he radiates. That is so wonderful, this guy needs to be in my life. He was pretty shy and he was back in Colorado at the time, it was like I need to make this happen. And we went together 12 years now, so I'm so glad I did. What a good success story. What does he say now, was he just nervous or when he felt relieved when you were reaching out and he didn't have to? Yeah, he was like, I was so shy, I didn't know how to handle this or he'll say I thought you were outside my league and stuff like that. Oh, that's obviously real life negotiations. Okay, we have 10 minutes left, so I could just talk to you for hours, we'll definitely need to get you on for like a part two because there's so many loops open that I want to return to. But if we're just to break it down for the listener in a few steps and then we'll end with a quick metty, let's just go through each step so like loyal listeners and new listeners welcome, but imagine they're going through a negotiation, whether it's like business, salary, I had negotiations with my husband when we were dating like if we should commit to each other. So what is like that first step that people should journal on or get clear on, I know you've kind of mentioned the steps throughout the podcast, but just for us to tie it together in a rapid fire way, step number one that they do. Step number one is make a list of all the things that are important to you in this job offer business deal or whatever it is. For job offers, it's pretty straightforward, it could be cash, equity, work from home flexibility, I guess commute, company reputation, visibility to leadership. If you have direct reports, title and things like that, you make a hold, I actually have a template for this. I think it's in my website, but just, I don't know, email me. And I can show notes or email. And you have the list, order it in order of importance to you and mark the non-negotiables. You could also not have a non-negotiable, some people just need a job right now and it's totally fine, but if you do have non-negotiables, mark them, ask for those at your first interaction. So like I said, if it's a title and work from home flexibility, that will be the first topic that you discussed when the negotiations start. So getting clear on the non-negotiables and like, yeah, if I'm thinking about list of priorities. Yeah, my relationship with my husband when we were debating if we should commit because he was like on his motorcycle trip and not sure if he should be in a relationship or not because he always thought he would be single, but then he really liked me and we had fallen in love in LA. And when we went into the negotiations, I was like, all right, what was I called him? I was like, for me, my priority is safety and if I don't feel safe, then I don't feel free. So if I don't feel safe with you, it's like it doesn't make sense for me to continue engaging with you in this sense. So anyways, for the step one, I guess, in that situation, my priority was my feelings of safety. Safety with him. Yeah, that's beautiful. Okay. You already knew this. Yes. Or I'm giving a retroactive example, I guess, okay, and then going into step two. Yeah, and sorry, just to go back to this in the business sense, it could be, I guess maybe with your co-founder, it could be like, do I need a co-founder to begin with? Let's say if you're not technical, for example, and you're doing a VC back startup, you need someone technical and like having a co-founder is much, much better than not having one. But for some people, you don't have to have one. So it depends, right? This list of priorities is different for everyone. And it could be how important is equity for you and how important is that we have similar lifestyles or there's so much to negotiate with a co-founder. I actually have a free worksheet on startup negotiations on my website. And so step two. Which is your negotiations.com. Yes. Everyone listening. Okay. Yeah. And I think some people just go into things blind and they're just like, I'm just going to wait and see. But it's so important to get clear what we value before we go into conversation like that because then it can feel really confusing or we end up feeling good in the moment in the conversation and feel resentful later. So I love like step one, getting clear on what is actually you're not negotiable and what will make you feel the most valued. Yeah. Absolutely. And then step two is you want to let them say the number first. And then for your husband, I'm trying to figure out how this could apply. But I guess maybe it's good to hear in that type of relational negotiation if we're going to call it. Sometimes we have our own desires and we're not hearing what the other person wants. So letting them say what they want. It sounds like he said he is worried about being in the relationship, but he also likes you. So it's good. They know you have more information. Yeah. You have some leverage. Yes. We need leverage. Yeah. So then with that, like, what do you recommend kind of like, so people have written down their priorities and what they value and maybe you've gotten to that first step of the conversation and you ask the other person first, always of like what they're, what do they have in mind or what do they suggest. And then what is like the next thing for the listeners, like write down or think about or get clear on from there? Yeah. You have more complex from here, it's like a decision tree. So say nobody gets more complicated, but you have your list of priorities and non-negotiables. You let them make the first move or number and all that. And then you want to start getting creative. You want to ask questions to understand what they care about and what they don't care too much about. And then you start to see if there's any way to be creative around that. There's like 20 things you could be doing here, so it's hard to break it down. But if there's one thing you really care about, you become gently persistent on asking for more in that direction, especially in the job offer sense and in the business context. I'm trying to keep all three up in the list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also like kind of, yeah, with the, I guess the example that I gave, I think a big part of it was like acknowledging his viewpoint and like reflecting it back to him and letting him know that I understood it and that like, you know, I think I got clear on that. He was in a long distance relationship before and it was very possessive and he viewed like if we were in a long distance relationship, therefore it must equal like possession and he won't be able to go to a bar on his travels and like just meet new people because like a girlfriend would be too jealous. So it was also like getting clear on what his definitions of like long distance relationship were and like the implications that those had for him. So then I could be like actually for me, like what it means or what safety means is that like we, we're actually more free to be ourselves and go out and meet new people because we trust that like nothing is going to happen sexually or, you know, romantically with like other people. Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful because you have the boundaries and you can play within that, yeah, I love that. I'm seeing. I love that. We love it. And then yeah, like kind of what are like the ending kind of steps or final things for people to write down journal on reflect on ahead of like stepping into whatever negotiation they're going into. I was gonna say for the last step, it would be once you hear things like this is our best and final offer. I personally like to push one more time and it doesn't have to be in the same direction but it could be in a different direction. So we've been negotiating, let's say in the job context on the salary and then I'm like, okay, this is best and final. If you feel comfortable, you can ask for a bit more in salary or you can ask for something else now. You go down the list and then let me think about journaling what I would strongly recommend in general is actually not negotiating on the spot and live. Even I get nervous or like get kind of stressed out live. So it's nice to, as we talked about the probability of it, you have a higher chance of making the right negotiation move if you take some space and think about and strategize your next move. Yeah. Yeah, giving it time and space and like we were saying like the silence. And then just to chime in with some of the energetics that I heard you say and that I love keeping in mind is just like maybe journaling on like how could it be a win-win for you and the other person like what is like that best case outcome where there's room for everyone at the top. And like if you're holding on to like a fear or resentment, what is that fear telling you? Why is it coming up? How are you projecting that potentially onto onto the other person and how could you kind of like infuse that with best intentions or love and then kind of like how envisioning yourself on the other side of the negotiation and like how you'll feel relieved, how you'll feel empowered, how it really truly did work out best for both of you and kind of going into that conversation with those best intentions in that like same side of the table energy attitude. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I don't journal much on negotiations. This is a very interesting, thanks for that approach. It could also be, I think what has been the most surprising for my clients and students has been how your dreams can come true. As I mentioned, yeah, double, double Tweet or retweet, our best performing client, we increased from their comp by over half a million from the initial offer to the final offer. It was 550 K more than what the company offered them and that's just wild. So stepping into that believing that it could be possible. Right. Yeah. Believing in the abundance, believing that, oh yeah, like I deserve this. And coming back to like that energetics of worthiness of like, who is that version of me? This is another good journaling question. Who is that version of me? Who knows that I'm worth it? Who knows that I deserve it? Who knows it and doesn't need to shout it, but it's like relaxed in that confidence and it just oozes out of me and me getting what I want actually benefit the other person or the other party because then they get a happier employee or then they get a like even more energized co-founder and so how does it create that like win, win, win for all of us and like the entity that we're a part of? Exactly. Yes. Okay. Well, we'll just do a quick little meditation and then sign off with where people can find you and any other last little rapid fire negotiation. Sounds great. Chips, tricks that you want to throw out. So we'll all just go ahead and close our eyes, taking a deep breath in through our nose, still sighing it out, relaxing our shoulders, relaxing our face, now their deep breath in and exhale release, letting your breath waterfall down your spine, relaxing your hips, your knees, your toes, and then third and deepest breath in to come into full presence, exhaling it out, and in your mind's eyes you keep your eyes closed, calling forth the negotiation that you're stepping into whether it's personal with your landlord, with your co-founder, with a company, with an investor, and just noticing it from the subjective perspective. Knowing if there's any fear or tension or resistance there, and if there is breathing into it, allowing that fear or resistance to speak, and as you let that fear or resistance speak, just acknowledging it and just knowing that it's just the smaller inner child version of you who might be a little scared of the unknown or of rejection. Just letting that fear or resistance know that it's natural that it's showing up, it means that you're on the cusp of growth, and as you breathe into it and acknowledge it, noticing it, just starting to fall away, bringing more lightness, bringing more magic into the scene. Now imagine looking at the other person that you're negotiating with and just seeing them with so much loving light, seeing them and their best intentions, their loved ones, their families, their whole world that they're a part of, just seeing them for the wholeness of who they are, and then feeling them see you in that way, feeling both of you kind of elevate and rise together as you both are tapped into your own light and your reflection back to each other magnifies the other's light, trusting in the positive outcome, and then watching the scene play out of this negotiation from this energy. Noticing how that version of you who's connected to your worth shows up in the scene, noticing how that changes the energy of the scene, impacting the other person positively, creating a magnetism around you, noticing how that allows an negotiation to unfold perfectly with grace, with the feeling that in your heart, and then noticing how it ripples into other areas of your life, elevating those other areas as well, letting you feel more connected to your power, your worth, your deservingness of all areas. And then looking at that version of you who's connected to your worth and just asking them, what is the perfect, wisdom, what is the perfect next step you can take, the perfect reminder that you can carry with you going into this negotiation, trusting whatever they say, thanking them and then breathing this light, this love, this peace from that future scene into your heart and exhaling it throughout your body, and then another deep inhale, exhale opening your eyes, coming back into space, if you've just done the meditation, just taking a few moments to write down or right after the podcast ends, writing down what came up for you, what is that piece of wisdom, how do you feel in that scene with the other person, maybe all the gratitude you have for them or for that company, so you go into it from a place of like deep gratitude and love. So beautiful, yay, this was so powerful. Is there any last little advice or negotiation thing to leave the powerful stuff listeners with you've already given us so much information? Yeah, negotiations could be also playful, I don't know if we covered that, but I like the playfulness of it, I take it very lightly and I also think of it as a game, but not like nomenopathy or poker, but it's more like, if I say this, this thing could happen, we could play together in this sort of game with kind of invisible rule, so I like to bring a playfulness energy to it as well. That's beautiful, I always actually made a post once about gamifying your life, like not taking it so seriously and that's what powerful stuff is about too, like it doesn't all have to be so serious and yeah, like gamifying it, like kind of being like a mad scientist, like, oh, if I, like wouldn't it be fun if I asked this and they said yes, like let me try it and see what happens, what if I did it in this way, like what would happen then and not being so attached to the nose just as a scientist isn't like, oh shit, I wanted it to be this way and like the data proves this, they're like kind of unattached to it, they're just kind of curious about finding out like what happens. Yeah, exactly. And one other thing is the power of words, I assume you've covered this, I will cover this in your podcast at some point, but in negotiations words can be so powerful. If we have 30 seconds, there's a study that was done in 1970s from a Harvard professor and she noticed that when people were standing in line, if you try to ask someone if you could cut in line, if you use the word because, even if you didn't have a good excuse, your chances of people letting you cut in line went from around 60 to 95% in chance, even if you didn't have a good reason, even if you didn't say I'm in Russia, whatever is like, oh I'm eating an apple, like oh sure, go ahead. The power of words, there's the sort of the more metaphysical concept, but there's also in psychology studies, they've seen how they can help you. I love that power because, yeah, it's like giving a reason and helping because it's also like you're inviting the other person to understand more versus entitlement. Yeah, wow, so powerful, Gerda, oh my gosh, we're definitely going to need a part two because I found myself wondering, all your other little tactics, all the other things in your life that you negotiated. I love your relationship example, and, yeah, where can people find you if they want to hear more? Yeah, just go to yournegotations.com and I have some free resources there and you can find my LinkedIn account, the newsletter, it's a lot of work, but you will find stuff on my website. Thank you so much for being here and sharing with us the lovely art of negotiations, the mindset, the tips and tricks around that. This has been so powerful and we will see you all next week for more powerful stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you.