What are you trying to say?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Bar Review, a space where we talk honestly about life and the legal profession. I'm Carrie, and I'm Anika. Welcome to the conversation. Just a quick note before we get started. We are not your lawyers, and this is not legal advice. - And to the extent either of us are employed by the time this airs, this is where we share our personal opinions and not the opinions of anyone else, especially those kind enough to employ us. - And one more time for the people in the back. - We are not your lawyers. - This is not legal advice. - Thank you for listening. - What do you say in the moment? And then what do you say when it's just you and me at happy hour and we're really fucking saying the thing? - And is it that different? - How do you say what you really mean, but in still a workplace appropriate email tone? It's not what you would say at happy hour, but it's also not how you framed your email because your email was overly nice. - All of this is perfect. - I was thinking that we do a say the thing and then translate it into corporate speech where you get the mail and balls. - And then we can land on an immediate one. - Do I get a finger trap instead of my mail and balls? - I mean, if you're really good. (laughing) Okay, so I think we popcorn this. So you just say shit, you're really frustrated about the way you would really say it and then we translate it into what's a version of the email that's not really cool, that clear is kind, right? And also standing up for yourself is a good thing and then let's find a compromise in the middle. - I don't have time to do this for you, thanks. - That actually sounds pretty, that should be the email. - And that should be the email. Have I ever sent that email? No. - Okay, so how do you, when you feel that way, when the answer is I really don't have time to help you and the answer is no, how do you write the email? - Usually if I truly don't have time and also this isn't something that would take over priority wise to kick other work, I usually say something like happy to help with this but I cannot start for another however many days and give the day that I would actually have capacity to work on it and see what happens. - Okay, what's the middle way? That's probably the middle way. - I mean, that's pretty good. - Yeah, okay, all right. But I did have to learn that 'cause early in my career I just said yes to literally everything and was like, I'll figure it out. - You're told too. - And then figuring it out is building 15, 16 hours in a day because you have too many things on your plate. - I'm drinking no water, I need no food. - Only one, only coffee. - Only one only coffee. - That is the food. - Hey, why does calories? - It does so calories. - Lots of nutrition, lots of nutrition in there. - Okay, I don't like working with you, working with you sucks. We have different ways that we approach the work and it doesn't work. It's not me, it's you. (laughing) - What's the corporate speech version? - That one's the hardest problem to have because that dynamic almost always arises in a place where you are not willingly working with that other person, right? You've been assigned or you've been told or the powers that be have just decided that you are to work with this person. - I'm gonna rephrase that. - The powers that be have lost so many people into working with this person and they're like, yo, this is your problem for a little while until we figure out how to solve. - You're the next one on deck. You are stuck with this absolute asshole. Okay, so how do you rate the emails to that person and/or do you address this at all or do you continue to shoulder through, shoulder through working with a toxic person who actually by the way might be the dream co-worker and co-teamate of another person. - Yeah, just not my dream teammate. - Yeah, not your dream teammate. This isn't gonna work for you and me. - That's a really important concept to pause and recognize that someone can be a great person and you can like that person on a personal level. - And you can hang out and go to happy hour with them but you two just don't work well together and maybe your colleague works great with them or maybe all of your colleagues but you work great with them. But you just don't and I think that's valid and fair and normal and absolutely happens in the workplace. - Not personal, maybe? - Yeah, I don't think it's personal 'cause like I said, like I think you can like and respect that he went as a person and just not work well together as teammates in the legal profession. - Yeah, so how do you say, I will no longer be accepting anything you ask. (laughs) - Yeah, I've never continuing to figure this out. Actually, if you're listening to this and you have some ideas, I would really welcome them because I send them to Anika. - She's got people, she doesn't wanna work. - I wouldn't put it that way. I would say, I would do put it. I would say that we just have different working styles and it is hard to work with that. My approach to this is I try to manage up 'cause with another associate, I would probably just go to happy hour with them and be like, yo, I can't. - This isn't working. We gotta figure out a way for this to work, but the conversation's easier to have 'cause usually you're both in the trenches with somebody else above you that maybe is part of this problematic dynamic and you can unite. It's more of a, how are we gonna survive this together conversation? - This is me and Anika's origin story. (laughs) I mean, it did involve a happy hour at a questionable hour of the day and saying, how are we gonna work on this and survive this experience for the next six weeks and here we are. But when it's someone above you, I try to be more proactive about deadlines. Honestly, that's where for me, it becomes intolerable is when someone else just runs on a shorter timeline than I do by a lot. I'm not good with last minute work. If you've listened to the Fire Drill episode, you understand that that is my arch nemesis is having to do something on a very short, panicked timeline that was avoidable. So I just try to personally be proactive and start drafts without direction or send eight emails being like, hi, I'm starting this, hi, here's a draft, hi, have you all of which get ignored? - Seen this draft and maybe they're engaged with and maybe they're not, but at least I feel like I've done everything I could have done from my position to make this easier on myself. And I will say that usually that does make it easier because I put myself in a good position. There is usually a last minute crunch, but at least it's not right an entire motion in a day last minute. - Though it might end up being revised an entire motion. - Maybe it's revised in site check an entire motion, but at least there is a document that could be filed. - Okay, fuck off on vacation. - Oh, so heavy hitter. - Yeah. - Oh, I just ignore it. - Even if it's got urgent and 18 exclamation points. - Okay, so usually this is my approach. I strategize my out of office message to head off some of this. So I will say because usually this is true. When I'm traveling, I'm usually on a different continent in a very different time zone, visiting my husband's family. If I'm gonna be out of the office for an extended period of time. So I will say I am in blank country on the other side of the planet with no access to my email. If you actually need to get in touch with me, I'll usually then give my legal assistant if you need something reach out to her. And then she knows on the back channel for me that she has my personal cell phone number. So someone reaches out to her and says, "Hey, this is really urgent. I need to get in touch with Onica." And she agrees then she can text me and say, "Hey, you need to log in to your email and respond to this person." So there's multiple levels of check. Someone has to think their ask is so urgent that they're gonna bother a legal assistant to then bother me. - Wait, and because you treat people well and make sure that you treat your legal assistant well, she's a true barrier. - Yes. - I don't know if she's ever had to push back 'cause truly in all the times I've gone out of the office for an extended period of time, I've never been contacted as something being urgent. And I don't know if that's because she's filtering things for me or if people are just truly respecting that out of office. And the thing I don't say is that I do make sure I have access to my email. I am screening my emails every couple days is usually what I do mainly because I hate coming back to an inbox that has hundreds of emails in it. And so I find it less stressful to just take 15 minutes on a random morning and just clear out spam and things so I don't have to come back to it. So I will know if something's going on too. - It sounds like the advice here is if you, however choose to take a staycation, you should still put it in an out of office that says, I'm on another planet. I don't have access to my email. - That's why I say I have extremely limited access to my email. - Just, I'm camping. in my video. mind. Yeah I'm camping in the four seasons and you will not be able to get it such a thing. I love for seasons camping would be my favorite out of office. Anybody has the co-honies to put that? Please contact us. Please let us praise you. Okay you've been invited to. oh you've been colloquially invited. You've been invited. You, ma'am, have been selected as one of the four people that will fill a table we bought at this place. Oh yes that's even better. I was gonna say networking generally but yeah you're on the fourth email recruiting people to fill the last three tickets the starting number was four eight emails ago to sit at this fundraising dinner. You really don't want to go. You don't believe in the cause and you don't believe in the one ticket who is being taken up by the person who believes in this cause. Right. Or sitting next to them for the entirety of the evening sounds like the one. And maybe honestly maybe you'll believe in the cause but you don't want to spend your Thursday evening at a dinner/lecture/silent auction that is going to run four hours over schedule and is nothing you would actually bid on. So you want to say. pint to certain organizations. Look I love a schedule. If you can keep your events on a schedule I'll come every year but I need to understand. I'm gonna throw out. This is real. I'm gonna throw out a name dropping for a great event. The Henipin County Bar Foundation every year I think throws the best event. You come whenever you want. You leave whenever you want. There's a buffet. There are games. There's no program. Yep. You truly come. Chill. Have a good time. You and I ran into a bartender we knew. Yeah. We had like convinced to be on this podcast at that event. And typically there's a band of judges and lawyers in town that will randomly perform at some time and that is the only thing that will happen at a time. There's also one for Smurls which is the Southern Minnesota Regional Legal Aid. It's Legal Services Foundation. They do a similar approach. Every year there's no program. There's no start and end time. You come into a buffet whenever you want. You leave. There's a wine ring toss game. Love that. Love that game. Love a game that raises money but that you are actively involved in some sort of fun activity. Yeah you pay 20 bucks and you get to toss three rings and if you get a ring over a bottle you get to take the bottle and wine them. Is this our official letting everybody know for organizations that we personally care about and are invested in stop having one person get on stage and speak for four hours. Yes. Please. Please. Please. Even if they're the greatest, even they're the coolest. Do a over lunch webinar, CLI and let's just really chill and hang and spend less money on your event. Yeah. It toward the actual cause. Imported to its cause. Maybe have a video recorded message if you really want to have a speaker or something that will make an impact because also I think the reason why in this email that you're going to get for the fourth time for why you should attend an event, it's always about the networking. There is truth to that. To be honest, I do run into people I never see always once a year at this one event that everybody in the legal community goes to. But then it's a rushed 20-minute conversation. I think the advantage to a no program structure is then you actually do just get to mill about and actually talk to the community and meet other people and have real conversations and then maybe you do a wine toss together and then you have a great time and you leave and you go get dinner and it's lovely. Oh yes. Stop making us eat dinner with you. Stop being as eat dinner with you. Like a sad wedding with a plated dinner. We don't want you and you shouldn't want to pay for it. No. Please just put out a shark cuterie board display thing that I show bar. Just like a bar. Remember when we went to that one event and they had a mashed potato bar. Yeah and you put the mashed potatoes in a martini glass and then filled it with cheese. Still maybe my favorite networking event. Food. They'll get food. Feed people. Get less food than you think. People can leave hungry because they're not really coming there to eat and it's awkward to eat at these things. But just stop making us have dinner with you. Yeah. Oh okay so that's what we really want to say. Stop being us have dinner with you to the event organizers. Stop paying for dinner. Stop making us have dinner with you. Throw a wine ring toss game in there. Honestly charge the same amount for tickets. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. Like the firms are paying for it. The firms are paying for it. And we're more likely to want to go if it's an hour and a half to two hours and it's really just an open bar with some heavy apps. For it to six p.m. I've got a 6.30 p.m. dinner reservation. I'm rolling it at 4.35 and by the way I've encouraged the people I actually want to have dinner with to come to the event. Correct. And there who I have my 6.30 p.m. dinner reservation with. And we barely talked to each other at the event. We really do mingle because we know we're going to have dinner afterwards. So all of this is a win-win. But anyway what do you say? What's your email back? What's your email back to? Now you're also being targeted. This email is being sent to you and the three other associates that they know are up for partners soon. So good luck saying no. Yeah. Or you did enough pro bono hours so they know you have a good heart so they want you to come. Yeah and you're typically a woman just stereotypically because you know why why do things where you actually get it towards your hours credit when you can just show your loyalty in other ways that don't count later when you sit down at meetings. All of these are problems to solve but the way I responded that email is sure can't wait. And then at the event that I've now co-opted my girl at the office which at one point would have been you. Then I just talked shit about the fact that we're there the whole time. It's so annoyed that I'm annoyed with myself because I've said yes and I didn't want to. Even if I kind of did it just the way the whole setup was. So yeah that's that's how I handle that situation. Say yes and then be an asshole the whole rest of the night. Go ahead. Are you able to laugh? I usually do wait until the fourth or fifth email. I've said no in my mind. So many. Two or three other times. I've ignored the email and that's how I said no. I've ignored the first two emails. Now I'm recognizing. I always knew I was going to have to go. Right. Yeah every single time when I filed that email I was like I'm going to go to this. I guess that is what I'll say for my joke that's not so much a joke. The one thing that I am definitely doing is co-opting somebody that I know I'm going to have a great timeless no matter what we're doing. Yeah also come do it. There's always a back channel conversation of are you going to this? Okay. We have to say yes. So can we make this a thing? Can we make this a thing? Can we make our own dinner reservation? Yeah. Yeah. But really all this comes down to is stop making us have dinner with you event organizers. Be a bro. Be a bro. Okay. Here is your sweatshirt. Oh just merch as a concept. This is different than just merch as a concept. This is your sweatshirt and you can wear this sweatshirt at all future events. Here you go. Forced branding. Forced branding. Forced reference and hate yeah. Like oh if you would like to casual leavey and sweats here's the sweats. Yeah I'm not a big fan of branded material in general in my life. I don't even wear t-shirts that have brands on them. No one can see it. Okay the exception is that Anna good currently has her love for branded on her awesome. It's a yaddy. Yeah it's an awesome. This is why I use it because it is good merch. If you give me good merch I'm good. We'll use it. My husband works in corporate America. Bro gets outstanding merch. We've got Patagonia's. We've got Yaddy's. We've got every cool thing under the sun branded and it's branded in a really subtle way. It's a Patagonia that's black with black stitching of the company name on a shoulder. I will wear that forever because it's discrete and a nice product. And nobody told him that he has to wear it and nobody told you that you have to wear it. You don't even work for the company. No I don't work for the company but I'm gonna wear it. So the takeaways here are don't force people to wear your merch. You always will find a cooler than everybody else will and to the extent that you'd like to force people to wear your merch. Don't actually force them to wear your merch. Just get the merch market place. That's how his company runs it. That's also how my current firm runs every so often a merch marketplace opens. And you get a credit of some amount from the company. Oh, she's saying it. Right. Oh, but then you can spend your own money on top of it. So profit for them. But you at least have a credit amount that then you can buy something out of the merch shop that aligns with what you would actually wear. Or you. This is the way to approach this. And then I think if you're giving people merch that is just given to them. It's their first day or whatever. I'm not playing an active role in selecting it. I really, I mean everybody's got 18 water bottles but I really think drink containers are like the best way to go. Sitting Rospower Drink container. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So cool shit and no email. I was passing aggressively making it a mandatory thing. - Yeah, if I can wear a firm sweatshirt on a Friday, I can wear any sweatshirt on a Friday. - Yeah, and if you make me feel like I have no choice but to wear the firm sweatshirt, I'm immediately resentful of the firm sweatshirt. - Correct. - Cool. Also make it a cool sweatshirt. - That's the one brand for us. Anybody tell us what to do. - We don't like it. - So, so hire us. - I'm done, I'm done being hired. I've decided it. - We're each. - You have to wait a year to make partner. - We're gonna just put all partner and decision-making on hold for a year. - Oh. - Or any sort of, hey, we're-- - Any type of promotion type thing, like-- - Yeah, we're gonna ask you to be a team player as we offer go this benefit. - Yeah, that's a thing. I've seen play out in multiple different ways. - Just for general team player, but this is you giving something up and us benefiting from you giving something up. And that's what being a team player as we find it. - Yeah, 'cause you are under the impression based on past conversations that a certain advancement or promotion or whatever was coming your way at this period in time. - And clearly they did too, 'cause they're sending you that email. - And now it's the messages. Actually, we need to wait a year, we're waiting a year, everyone's waiting a year. Please be a team player. This is being tabled. You're really valued, we really appreciate your presence here, but we're just not in the position to follow through with us for another year. I don't know, dude, that's such a light. - And then at the bottom, there's always that one. Let us know if you have any questions. - But I've got a lot of questions and concerns. None of that is gonna voice. - I'm furious and going home right now to say all the things I'd really like to say to you, but you're not really open to the conversation. - No. - And you start job hunting right away when you get that email. - In my mind, yeah. I definitely do that and start googling other job. I think at the end of the day, it's not, okay, it's a year, a year in the grand scheme of things is not that significant. - But there's so many things that in the grand scheme of things, I can take one for the team is such a way that women in general are told to navigate their corporate environments. - I do think of this one as not gender specific. This is law firm practice specific. I don't think it's, I don't know. - I'm gonna say everything. So gender is a mess, but gender-based violence, gender-based discrimination is not a mess. If that makes any sense. - Yeah, yeah. All right, another one I have is, we're increasing the billable hour requirement of this firm. So the idea of this happening in many different ways across firms of all sizes. And it is done best when there is a corresponding pay increase. Ooh, so I have some friends that happened to them, actually right before their first year of practice, the market just went through a shift where the minimum billable expectation in this market moved up, it's still not the expectation of the coasts, but it did go up. And so they got an email that said, this is your new billable hour expectation and correspondingly here's your new salary. - So if you're gonna ask for something, give something. - Yeah, and that's fair, right? Your billable hours are tied to your salary. If you decide to go on a reduced schedule in the future, your pay is reduced, come measure it to the amount you reduce your billable hours. So I think any change in billable hours, it is expected that it comes with a change in salary. - But do you respond to the email? - No, it always says at the bottom. - Let us know if you have any questions you can send. - No, 'cause what bargaining power do I have none? - But what I'd like to say is, thank you very much. I appreciate that you've shared this information about the new policy. I want more money than that. - Well, right, I want more money than that. Or also, I would like to understand the reasoning why tell me why this is happening. - And this goes across for any policy. - Yeah. - So I rephrase the question to, dear all, this message is being sent to everyone. Everyone is blind copied. And inevitably one older partner will reply all to this email and say some shit that everybody's thinking, which is always funny. And maybe what everybody should really be saying. - Yeah. - But we are rolling out this new policy. - We know you're not gonna like it. But everybody gets more money too. - Yeah. - Let us know if you have any questions or concerns. - And also, well, from our businesses, there are business decisions that lead to policy changes. And just giving people insight into why that's happening can be helpful. We're increasing the bubble hour expectation because this expense at the firm is increasing significantly. And so we need extra revenue to cover that. Or our malpractice insurance jumped or our health insurance premium jumped in an order to not transfer those costs onto U.S employees. This is the way we're transferring this cost. You won't pay it out of pocket, but now we do have to grace the expectation. I actually really think there's usually a logical explanation for why something is happening. But businesses seem reluctant to give that insight. And that clarity, the clear is kind in that builds loyalty because if people understand the reason, we're all just toddlers at heart. I just wanna know why something is happening. So if you just tell me why, I don't know, maybe I'll be a little bit more convinced. I'll probably still be upset, but at least I still have, I haven't understanding about why it's happening. - Yeah. And I feel trusted with the conversation, even if it's not a conversation. And we're just settling for popcorn kernels. - Yeah. Cool. All right, last one. - This is when we're ending on. - The coffee machine is broken. - I riot. (laughing) - They're better be an alternative. The only reason I am present in this office is for that coffee machine that actually happened at my current firm, the espresso machine broke. And so then they just had extra crafts of black coffee. It was four in a row. But they just lined up so that people would at least have caffeine, not the same as espresso, but at least there's an option because I find it pretty intolerable when the coffee's broken. - Or we are no longer going to be offering a snack budget, but we just set up a vending machine in the break room. - No. (laughing) - Riot? - Just riot. - There's no middle way, there's no one, it's just no. - I know what you bill clients for my billable hour. You can buy $10 of snacks. - It leaves a grin all of ours that only really, oh, and also you don't really know what people are going through. Always have salty crackers in your kitchens. - And a decaf option of a coffee machine. - You don't need to know why. If you already know why, exactly. Nobody else needs to know why. - Yes. - Always have just always have crackers. - I was just crackers for your maybe nauseous coworkers. - Who are nauseous for many reasons? - Like, yeah. - Yeah, actually let's end on that. I'm hungover, I don't want to come to work today. (laughing) We love a work from home, Paulus. - We love a work from home. (laughing) - Thanks for listening to Bar Review. Say what you need. - Sure as kind. - I don't know, you've worked it, did you? - No, no. (laughing) (upbeat music) - Thanks for joining the conversation. You can find Bar Review wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe and share. Wanna keep the conversation going? Follow us on social at BarReview LLC. Onika will see you there and she'll tell me all about it. Got a question you want us to talk about in a future episode? Send it our way. We try to read every email. And just a reminder, we are not your lawyer. This is not legal advice and these opinions are just our own. Cheers. (upbeat music)