What are my options?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Bar Review, a space where we talk honestly about life and the legal profession. I'm Carrie, and I'm Anika. Welcome to the conversation. Just a quick note before we get started, we are not your lawyers, and this is not legal advice. - And to the extent either of us are employed by the time this airs, this is where we share our personal opinions and not the opinions of anyone else, especially those kind enough to employ us. - And one more time for the people in the back? - We are not your lawyers. - This is not legal advice. - Thank you for listening. - What made you realize that it was time to start exploring options? - It's hard to pinpoint a time that there's many layers to that. Is there a job that even does meet all of your needs? Does that exist? I think of this a lot as Goldilocks. Is there actually a perfect porridge? Or are you always going to have to compromise something? And maybe it's just a shift in what you're compromising? So I think I still don't really know if the perfect long job exists out there. Well, it sounds like you're saying you're not even sure if the perfect job exists out there. - Well, yeah, I mean my perfect job is I run a coffee shop in a forest stand but I actually don't really run it. I just make lattes and hang out and don't have to worry about taxes, there your health care. Not a real job. My dream job is not a real job. - Your dream job is a mega iron roll. - Yeah. You know, the star in a Walmart Christmas movie. That's my dream job moment. Is that true though? I think this is fun because I think you'd be bored out of your mind. I think you'd be looking for trial work. - I really do. - That's absolutely true. So I think brings me to my thinking on when did it become time to start looking for something else. And I think I had to reach a point in my own processing of my career where I realized that what I wanted is not what I had before me, even though what I wanted previously is what I had before me, that what I wanted out of this evolved. And my priorities out of work definitely have evolved in the years that I've been in attorney. When I first started working right out of law school, I mean in law school and right out of law school, I didn't think I wanted to be a partner anywhere. I didn't want to chase that. I didn't want to work a thousand hours a week. It really wasn't sold on being a lawyer, period. And so now though about two and a half, three years in, I've had this whirlwind of a first two and a half years of practice. I've had all this trial experience. I've gotten the second share of trials. And I hit a pointy this fall where I did start thinking to myself, maybe I do want to be this one I grew up. Maybe I want to be a trial attorney when I grew up. And I talked to my husband about it and he basically looked to me and he was like, I've been waiting for you to say this for years. He has seen the writing on the wall for so long because he knows me better than I know myself. And he just was waiting for me to come to that realization on my own terms. And I think once I did, then my priorities for legal work became, okay, now I want somewhere that I can grow, somewhere that I can can make this practice of being a trial attorney money career, which isn't offered when currently. So I went back up because you said a lot of really incredible things. So let's start from the beginning. And this particular beginning, you're in law school, you start law school. What is the environment like to help you make decisions about jobs? What was that experience like for you? What did you feel like your options were? And what did you think exist? 'Cause when you say the word partner, it sounds very loaded, but maybe I'm not understanding what you thought it meant when you were a law student. - Great question. So when I was in law school and I went to the top tier law school, I do think that changes the way the career counselors think about their graduates. And so in this program, most people came from out of state, but most people did stay in state when they graduate. I wish I thought was interesting when I started. And I'm a victim of that statistic and that I came for out of state I stayed. But I felt like we represented with two buckets of options. And bucket one was big law. And bucket two was work for the government. And big law was, okay, here are these big large firms both in our city and then the Cups, New York, Chicago, LA. And take your pick of which prestigious law firm you wanna work in. And as we've talked about, I had an experience before law school where I interned at one of these really big law firms in Chicago and I had a couple different moments throughout the summer where I was like, I don't really think this life makes sense for me. And the one that sticks out is, I went to lunch with some associates and you're bragging about the fact that we have stress hives. That was like a badge of honor. Like we're so stressed and working so much that this is how stressed I am and aren't we all proud that I'm this stressed. Like it felt very dystopian to me in the moment. It's not really what this becomes. Like you obviously, you're brilliant. You worked so hard in law school. You did so much to get here. You're at this prestigious job. And now your life has come down to you. How many hours can I bill? And how many metrics can I take to be quote unquote successful? If I say it back, tell me if I get it right. The prize after all of this achievement it felt to you like almost a competition in toxicity. Absolutely. Like who's living the more toxic life? Who's sacrificing more to give it over to this firm? And that's the reward for getting through the LSAT, getting into law school, going to law school. Now you can arrive and be here where it sounds like not only are you unhappy, but you're sitting it, but should be relaxing meal, talking about how you're unhappy as a way of. I don't know, winning some sort of competition. Yeah, is that I could have stress hives and wear luba tans, or I could just wear normal care of heels and maybe have a light? I just don't think this is worth the cost. There's a real, tangible, personal cost to chasing big law. And especially in the version that I had seen. I came into law school not interested in that. I also came into law school wanting to be a human rights attorney and practicing internationally and working in the RICC. That was the frame that I came in, which directed me in those two buckets, big law of the government. I was directed towards the government bucket. And within that bucket there were two options. It was become a prosecutor or become a public defender. And I was never going to be a prosecutor. I came to law school wanting to defend people in international criminal court. That was my viewpoint on the law. I think everyone deserves defense I think defense workers, human rights work. I was going to the vote to vendor. And so that's the track I found myself in by I would say like midway through my first semester of 1L. Like it was pretty clear, pretty quickly that that was the direction I should aim for. So let's slow that down. When are these buckets presented? Who's presenting the buckets? How are you already tracked in your first semester of studying something that it sounds like you even have questions about whether or not you wanted to be studying? If I could see because the summer job market started, I don't know, honestly, applications probably weren't even open. I think applications opened over a winter break, but that meant it was on everyone's mind about what their internship was going to be between first and second year of law school. And so I think that's where the conversation started. And honestly, I'm not sure if there was ever a, well, I am sure that I had a career services presentation of some sort like an orientation, but I have no recollection of what that content was. So I actually don't really remember how my world view was narrowed to these two buckets. I think it just kind of happened. And I'm confident you experienced this, but I think law school has a high mind aspect to it. You come in thinking one thing and then you get into the pressure of the granite is law school and you find yourself thinking something that's a complete 180 of what you came in, but just everyone is thinking that way. And so you feel like that's how you need to think. I mean, there's science to mirror neurons, right? So I mean, is what you're saying that it was less about administration creating these tracks and buckets, although that might have been happening too, but it became the people that you were with all of the time and studying with all of the time and spending a lot of time with started self-segregating into quote unquote buckets. So you felt like you had to pick one too. I think so. And I actually think it was much more everyone it felt, obviously wasn't everyone, but it felt like everyone was suddenly going to be in big law. And I was like, OK, I don't want that. So what's the problem? But to be fair, that winter break between what I'll, or between my sisters of one, I applied to big law internships. I applied again in my second year. I came into law school knowing I didn't want to be in big law, and I was applying there because these are my options. And this is what's on the job board, and this is what everybody wants. So I should want it too. Did you, even as you were putting those applications together, was there a part of you that wanted that, or did you want to get chosen? It's hard to distinguish. I definitely wanted to be chosen. I think I also did crave the predictability of a big law track. I mean, it's secure. You have these years laid out in front of you. There's a progression, there's progression in pay, there's progression in career standing, there's training, there's fancy lunches. It's just that lifestyle of being secure. A secure, and a big girl living her downtown city life. That was really appealing to me, and I think there came a point where I started thinking about it. That way, the security way, and lost track of stress-sives. And also, I think, got a little bit cocky, I think as we all do, this idea, that's not going to be me. I could do this better. I can be better at setting boundaries or better at whatever, to make it so it's not this miserable experience. And people do it, I'm sure, they're definitely our ways to mitigate the bad experience. But there also are realities about working in big law, and the hours you have to work, and just generally working at a law firm, that no amount of boundaries is going to mitigate. And we should flag too. We're talking about litigation. Yeah, I'm sure. But how did you know litigation? Because clearly, we've both in this whole conversation so far. I've just assumed that and taken it for granted. I never thought about anything else. So, that's not true. I think at one point in college, I worked, not even worked, like, shadowed a lawyer, that my family knew, and she worked for the health care system, where I grew up. One of her colleagues had much more of a transactional contract with you traditional kind of transactional work. And one day, she had me review red line edits to an employment contract. And it was the most miserable thing I'd done in my life. And I am confident there's so much more to transactional work than that. But from that moment on, I was just like, this is not for me. And also, I think I just knew and knew my personality that I wanted to be a litigator. I wanted to get up in a courtroom. I wanted to be a litigator. Well, so my first year to go back in time a little bit, I participated in a mentorship program through the Women's Law Association, and the law student chapter coordinated with the broader one in the city to pair you up with people. And I was really struggling because I had no real understanding of how one becomes a human rights attorney. I was just like, I want to defend people in international women's court. I told my career councilor that they were like, yeah, that's not like a job you get out of law school. And I was fair, but like, what does the track look like? I couldn't see the path there. I was like, this is what I want to do when I grew up. And nobody was telling you about the path. They were telling you about lots of other paths. Lots of other paths. And really, I picked the law school. I went to because they have a really strong human rights program. And so I knew there was this clinic. I knew there was like an ability to build connections. But just, I didn't really know how to put all these public places together. So I was matched to the clinic mentor. And she herself was a public defender in the city. And we got coffee and I made a breakdown of my first semester of law school. It was just like so lost in everything. And this lovely woman, listen to me in Starbucks for probably much longer than she thought she was getting herself into. And then gave her a really great pep talk and she's the one who said to me that defense work is human rights work and I think you should look at being a public defender and she just really encouraged me to look into that and say like, "I think I would speak to you." Okay. She ended up being the coordinator for the summer program in her office which was a really competitive program to get into and so I applied to that program. I was accepted and so that's what I did my first semester and so I continued working with them through my second year of law school. They kept me on part-time doing the same thing I did full-time but just part-time and I saw it going into two L that this is my past. I'm going to be a public defender. The trial work full-time is public defender and then I had a really difficult case that really pushed my ability to do the job and to just do the job and that was really hard for me and I really couldn't leave that at work. This is just too emotionally heavy. There are a couple other cases that really struck me emotionally and so I was left in the spring of my two-year with what the fuck do I do now. Public defender is not it. Still don't really want to go to big law. I ended up doing OCI because I was there might as well. I got a couple callbacks but didn't get an offer and so I was left to figure out what comes next. To what came next. I started looking into ways to use a JD and not be a lawyer. So it's a family too far into this. I've got the student learned at I'm going to get the degree what could I do without being a lawyer. It was really coming up empty. There was really not much speaking to me and then I ended up seeing a posting for a firm hiring a law clerk. So that at basically at that point I think it was maybe March of my two-year and so at that point I was just focused on getting a job. It was a guy I had rent to pay. I've got bills to pay over the summer. I just need someone to hire me and someone to pay me. So a firm made a posting with a hiring law clerk. The pay rate I thought was a joke. It was probably three times with the public defenders paid me per hour and I thought I was living life. So I was like, okay, this looks good. I applied. They interviewed me. I think back to that interview. I just like makes me chuckle because I was so checked out of being a lawyer or being a law student in that sense that I really was just my unfiltered self. I was not trying to say the right answer. I just didn't really care and I think that is why I got the job. It's a firm that really values authenticity and wants will be themselves. And I was so bold that at one point interrupted this session to be like, you're the first lawyers I've interacted with that seem like they like each other. They love that. They were all laughing at me and they're like, yeah, we do like each other. And then that's where I got my job. And you've been there ever since. And I've been there ever since, including after graduated I went full-time and that's where I've been. So if you could crystallize it at the moment you're sitting at that table for this job. What are you looking for in your life? Back when I was in my second year when I was interviewing. I mean, this sounds so sad. But honestly, just the logic of I didn't hate. Something that I felt like I liked the people I worked with that the work wasn't as emotionally heavy as public defense work where I felt like I could leave work at work and I could have a personal life. My focus at that point was honestly minimizing the role that my legal job played in my life and focusing on the external things. I was dating my husband. That was getting serious. I was training for a half marathon. I was just doing a lot of other things in my personal life that I kind of was just like, how do I pay the bills? Maybe learn some things but don't make this my entire identity. I want to take French classes. Right, I did. I started taking French classes. I'm learning how to cook things. Like I was just so focused on other aspects of my life and I just didn't want to be in a job where law was my life. It was all consuming. Yeah, I didn't want to be in somewhere all consuming. I wanted to be able to set boundaries. I wanted to take trips. I wanted to travel and that's what this firm and that job seemed to offer and did offer and did yeah and did offer and he was in 2021. They had me so four years ago. I think probably almost exactly four years ago I sat in that interview. Happy anniversary. What have you been up to for the past four years? I was hired to work in the firm's two offices. They're into cities and so I was then barred in multiple jurisdictions as part of the job, works in multiple jurisdictions, did work that I never really thought I would do a practice area wise and just got a lot of experience really quickly. I was getting to work directly with partnership right away which was a challenge as a new lawyer because I had no idea what I was doing and also great because I got to do everything and so I learned really quickly, got put into a lot of things really quickly, very much a trial by fire. I've been in six trials in two and a half years and I've gotten the second chair, two of them. I was on my feet doing things in court for two of them. Yeah and loved it and loved it. I knew I liked trial work in the first four where I was just on the team. I knew that I was enjoying that experience but then there truly was a moment I was getting up in the first trial where I was second chair and it was also the first case that I'd been involved in for the life of the case so I had really seen it all develop and I was arguing motions in lemonade which was the first thing we took up before Wadiere even and I was super nervous and then I stood up to start arguing to the court and just felt calm. It just all settled in and it wasn't known anymore and I thought to myself I could do this forever and here we are. Well where are we? still figuring that out. So I had that realization went into another trial pretty quickly which solidified this idea of okay I like being on my feet. I like doing the trial work. I want to be a trial 20 when I grow up and then just thinking about what that meant. So the firm that am at currently that we're both at doesn't offer a partnership track which is not part of their model and so there isn't a path to keep growing in a traditional sense with this firm and I decided that I wanted that I wanted something more concrete just a path with concrete stepping stones along the way that I felt like I could dedicate years to and come out on the other end. So you are now looking for that all-encompassing little career. Yeah basically I've now slightly divide a boundaries. I don't know if that's true because you you still cook yeah I do still cook and you are still taking French lessons with your tutor. I am and you still travel you're about to go on a big trip to Japan. Yes and you're obsessed with your dog and you hang out with your dog every day. Yeah so if anything you've like you're you're doing the thing right? Maybe I just forgot how to have it all out I don't know. I do think a big transitional did have to happen in the fall so my husband and I have always talked about our careers as he would be the career focused one. So that was going to be him. If his job demanded we had to move or we had to do something else that was fine. We're going to follow that path and then this fall when I kind of was like okay maybe I want to do this and I want to commit to this career path. He and I sat down and talked about it and he was very much behind that and we'll just make the decisions that we need to as we come to them. I think he and I don't make decisions we don't have to make but reframing the focus of opening that door for me to get invested in a career and acknowledging that there might come a tie where he has to make it a different choice or make a change so that I can stay on this path that I'm starting to open for myself. Navigating your own partnership at home to make space for both of the empires you're looking to build and I want to be a mom one day hopefully and so thinking about bringing that in and making sure that there's support and there's a village today that happened. That's awesome. So what are you looking for and not looking for as you step out and see what's out there? Isn't that the million dollar question? I'm looking for more structure and for more formal mentorship, more formal instruction so to speak in business development. Just some more structure so it's a little less like take that guy to the Vikings game and they come our client. A little less browey, a little bit more formality. You want to do the work. You don't want to do the lunch. I don't even know if that's true. I do like the lunch. I don't mind the socializing and the relationship building. I think it just happens a little bit more organically than trying to make it happen. Make it happen. I think it's the making it happen that I don't jive with. I think it would be really hard for me to be an environment where it's you would have to go to that large and because you have to make a connection that's going to bring business in the door and I much prefer we just [BLANK_AUDIO] like to hang out and we're just gonna chat with each other and those relationships will come naturally. So I think it's much more of just a relationship boving than a business building that I'm interested in. Cool. Alright, that's very clear. Why now? I think it was that realization that I had just a couple months ago of, I want to do this when I grow up. I think it also is the reality where I'm at in my career. I am at a really strong transition point. Two to half, almost three years in. I have a lot of experience under my belt. I just had this really unique first couple of years of practice. And bluntly, I'm just at a good point for a firm to take me on financially. They've had it framed to me as they don't have to train me. So there's not this self-cost to having to get me up to seed and train me. I could step in and take a deposition tomorrow. But I'm not that expensive yet. Right? Because if once I get to the point where I'm six, seven, eight years into practice, then I demand more money on the market. So the salary that I'm going to expect them to pay is higher. So I'm going to cost them more salary-wise. And also there is an expectation once you're seven eight magnars into practice that you are bringing a book of business with you and that you're going to bring revenue generation and have those relationships and bring them with you to the firm. I don't have that. And yeah. And no one would, I think, expect me to have that at this point in my career. But it just feels like the sweet spot where I have enough training, but I'm not an old dog yet. You can teach me new tricks. I can adapt to an environment. And I have a few years to integrate on board, so to speak, and then find my footing in business development and so that I can have that portfolio and that skillset and benefit keeping me around by the time partnership comes on the table. Were you nervous to dip your toe out there? Yes and no. I think yes, in a sense of I do have a really good job at the moment. I work with great people. I really like who I work with. I think I'm really lucky to have landed here. And I didn't want the fact that I was looking for something else to send the message or to feel like I was unhappy with where I'm at or didn't like to I was looking for like what I was doing. I'm in a really great spot and I could stay here, but I'm looking for something different now. You want to grow. I want to grow. And so that was the most nerve-wracking part of putting myself out there is just I didn't want to accidentally burn a bridge. And I don't think I'm going to burn a bridge at the end of the day, but just that stress of I don't want this to be taken the wrong way. But otherwise not really I knew that I had a good profile. I knew I had great experience. I did have a base level belief in my ability to go out and get a job that I wanted. And so I didn't feel nerve-wracking in the putting myself out there from that perspective. And it's gone well. It's a bite. I've had I don't know, three, four interviews. I've really been added a couple weeks. So it did happen a lot faster than I anticipated. I thought this was going to kind of be a really long game. I don't know. And it for the long haul. I'm going to have to put my cast a few times. See what I find. But it seems to be happening quicker than I expected. Comparing this round to what it felt like in your two-year, how would you compare those throwing your hat out in the ring experiences vastly different in I think a really positive way. Then two out, you know, it's this pressure cooker. I know everyone I'm competing against. We're all talking to each other about it. And I don't have anything distinguishing really. I was a middle of the road law student. I didn't have an outstanding GPA. I was involved because that's just who I am. So I had some leadership in campus groups. But there was something to set me apart when they asked you and you, why should we hire you and not anyone else we're talking to you today. I didn't have this super stellar answer to give. I just didn't really feel like I stood out from the crowd that much. What's your answer now? Now it's my experience. I do just think that my experience of taking part at this place. Is it possible that you're just more confident in yourself than you were, but you're the same candidate? I think that's possible. I certainly am more confident in myself. I think I've definitely found a lot more of who I am and my boys and my confidence in the past two and a half, three years, whenever the last time I'd always been a member of it was. But you are the same candidate. It's just a matter of knowing what you really can bring to the table. Yeah, I think there is an element of knowing what I can bring to the table. I feel I'm confident when I can bring to the table. I do have some of my four experience job and I took this second year in law school as anyone would after they've left law school. I think I've also had a different element of lack of desperation. I'm not in a bad place. I could hang out here. If I get an offer and it's not right, if it doesn't pass the gut check, if it doesn't pass the salary check, I can walk away from that and I'm going to be fine. And I have a job that I'm not trying to run away from at light speed. But when I was interviewing you too well, that wasn't the case. It was okay. I've got to have a job in two months or I really don't know how I'm going to pay rent. We're looking at taking private lollies to try to live for a summer. And so that changes the way I feel I can present myself. This time around, I feel like I can come into the room as exactly who I am and have confidence in that versus when I was in law school, I felt like I was really trying to be the perfect candidate because the stakes felt so high. And that was probably absolutely to my detriment. I think everyone can see through someone who's not being genuine. But the stakes felt so high at that point that I felt like I had to be the dream candidate in order to get the job. I felt that way too when I was in law school. And then I got the theoretical dream job and I was miserable at it. And then I didn't quit right away because I had stress hives and they were bigger than everybody else's stress hives. And you came in to law school anti-stress hives. Yeah, no, I knew I wanted, I knew I was going to abolish the death penalty. And I still know that. But I didn't do on campus interviewing. I didn't participate in any of those applications. And then found myself when I graduated getting a federal clerkship, which I'm very grateful for an incredible mentor in my judge. Then I went for the big shiny Louboutin job and I bought the Louboutins and I was very proud of myself. But I was miserable. And then I've spent a lot of time trying to find the job that I have now. And it is interesting just when you think about what you're looking for at different points in your life. You know, in some level I'm looking to grow still. But in skills, not in stature. Yeah. It, you know me better. Between the two of us, if there's somebody who's going to enjoy the lunch more it's you. You're going to enjoy the lunch more than me. That's very true. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't want to do it. I want to eat lunch with people I enjoy eating lunch with. But I don't want to eat lunch with someone because I want to be their lawyer. I want to eat lunch with someone because I just won their case. So you found I don't know, but I, I don't know if I, I think I hear you that, you know, work has worked for a reason, right? But I have happier than I've ever been at work ever. And I've had a few different types of jobs. I've been general counsel. I've been in a county government role. I've been in the big law. I've been a clerk. I've played a lot of different roles in this. And I do think I like the role that I'm playing. But yeah, I mean, every day is a new adventure, right? If you ask me on some days, today was a great day. If you ask me on other days, it's a different struggle. But I refuse to give up the idea that you can't love your job. I believe that exists. Well, I think you can love your job. But I think there's a difference between loving your job and having the quote, perfect job. Oh, yeah, that's fair. I don't know that anything's perfect, right? Nothing can be perfect. You've been in many different roles. Like, do you, do you think your, the role, do you think that the role exists for you? Or do you think you're just always going to be in the place of sacrificing something or whatever feels appropriate to sacrifice in that stage of life that you're in? And so maybe that sacrifice looks different. And so your role looks different, but do you ever think that you'll find a place in this legal life where you don't think you're sacrificing anything? That this is where we should talk about 4,000 weeks, right? You know, it's, you're always picking something to fail at. At least if you're doing it, quote unquote, right? So I don't know. I mean, I try my best to never miss bedtime. I'm in a role where I am doing the kind of law that gives me energy. If I'm not doing criminal defense work, then I'm doing plaintiff side civil rights work. And that combination in itself is a rare find. They do log off pretty consistently around 3.30 every day and log back on at 6.30 if there's more to do. And there's respect around that. And there's also respect around the fact that I'm not a night person. I'm a morning person. So I'm more likely to log on at 3 a.m. than I am to log on at 6.30 even if I log in at 10.30. and I appreciate that. But the fire drills are hard, and the fire drills are hard to maintain a balance with the rest of your life. And that comes from personality that comes from just litigation. So I don't know. I don't know if it's possible to not be compromising something, or at least I haven't figured that out yet. I agree with you with what you were saying. You know, there were for a while clear juncture points where it was time to find another job. So I felt like in law school, there was this. I have to do something for the summers. So I filled those summers, and I filled those summers doing capital defense work, and then public defense work. And it wasn't even a question for me. I didn't know that there were tracks and paths. I started law school with just that's what I'm going to do. And then I had a defined clerkship, so it ended at a particular date. So it was time to find another job after that. And leaving that first big law job, I agree with you. I was at the point of my career that you're in now. And then I would agree is it's a very marketable moment to leave. I started to feel like if I didn't want to be a partner here, the longer I stayed, the longer I would look like I wasn't making partner, even if that wasn't something I was pursuing. So you start to stink like nobody wants you to be a partner in their law firm. And that, you know, I didn't want to wear that scarlet letter. I didn't think that that would be good. But I didn't know what else to do. I just knew I wasn't happy, and I just knew I needed a job. So I tried some other stuff. But I don't have a lawyer in my family. Do you have a lawyer in your family? No. And I'm sure we'll do another episode about mentorship. But, you know, that idea of having that coffee in a Starbucks is really something I've had to seek out and find. It sounds like you too. Yeah, as I'm sure we'll talk about many more times, the law is such a black box. Even this idea of we keep saying make and partner as a zero L or a one L, I wouldn't have understood what that meant. That's something I had to learn through osmosis. But essentially means you've gotten to the point where you own a piece of the firm that you practice at and you're paid out equity generally, although there are non-equity partner checks. But in its traditional sense, you're paid out equity for being a partner, which is part of the profit share, effectively, of the firm. And most people say you become eligible for partner around seven-ish years, all the different firms set different tracks. So seven years into practice, you're expected to have a skill set and the ability to generate your own business to bring that money into the firm to be valuable in us, that now they want to share part of their profits with you. And usually you have to be voted into the partnership. An existing partner has to present you. So you have to have that mentor in the firm that you're at. That whole process is not something I knew were understood until many years into being in the legal community. I do often wonder sometimes if I had known that really was the world I was getting into, what I had found myself in law school. What didn't you want about it then that you want now? I became a practicing lawyer in litigation. I think this is what I used to be specific. But realize that I can't say no. I can't shut it off. And do you want to? And I don't. Like that, if there's something that needs to be done for a case or for a client or for a trial, and that means I have to work until 10 p.m. I'm going to work until 10 p.m. And I really could not set that down at 5 and walk away. That just isn't how I'm built or how I'm wired. And so I found myself essentially living and working a lifestyle that fit much more of this big law lifestyle that I've been running away from. And I think you're leaning into it now. I'm leaning into it now. And I think I also have done a lot to make it my own. I do try to make it to those workout classes. I do hook my dinner. You do make it to those workout classes most of the time. And I do see my husband. And I do have hobbies. And so I have made an effort to still keep my life a part of that. But I think I've leaned much more into this idea that this career is a lifestyle in a lot of sense. And it just, it runs your life in a different way than a 9 to 5 job. And sometimes I fantasize about having a 9 to 5 job. And I also just, I don't think that would make me happy. I think the predictability and the consistency of that would actually drive me out the wall a little bit. I think I need the fire drill in some sense of being a litigator. Maybe that all the time, fire drill. But I do enjoy and get a lot of gratification out of having to solve problems on a short time. It is funny to me when you say that you fantasize about the 9 to 5, because we started this conversation with you even naming a fantasy job that doesn't exist. And not even that's a 9 to 5 job. Because I want to be in my bakery like three in the morning. Yeah. And then drink wine all night with your do karaoke auto tune karaoke. I don't do karaoke, but I will jump in line. Yeah, that's fair. Auto tune karaoke. No, I don't get the karaoke thing. Yeah, me neither. [LAUGHS] All right. Well, you're in the middle of it. What are you hoping happens? Well, it's recently birthday. And that was a birthday. I'm reflecting on the year and earth at. And I think I do feel a lot of content and a lot of pride for where I'm at. I'm really proud of younger me in a lot of ways for getting us here. My focus at this point is just a life that feels right. That's my mantra for 2025. And if I don't do resolutions, but I have loose aspirations of guiding theme to my ear. And that's my theme is a life that feels right, especially recently talking to my dad about this whole moving career is the thinking about it in the Frozen Cons. And he and I are basically carbon copies of one another. And his advice for the end was don't get that analytical with it. You could propon it. You can think about it in spit-in in circles and just get lost in that rabbit hole. But at the end of the day, if your gut's not in it, you're not in it. And so just trust the gut. And so that, to me, is a life that feels right. I think that's absolutely right. I've made every good decision I've ever made was for my gut. And every decision that if I were to go back and rethink through what was being honest with myself, my gut knew, but it's easy to ignore your gut for at least a little while. But for me, at least, I can only do it for a little while. Yeah. I think you'd only do it for a little while. And we are professional thinkers in a lot of ways. We can rationalize a lot. If you put me in a room with just my head for long enough, all rationalized pretty much anything. But you know really quickly whether or not it sits well with your gut. And I don't know. I met my husband in three weeks in. I thought I was going to marry him. And here we are. So trusting we've got that served you well. What advice would you give to somebody who's stuck in the hive mind right now and uncertain about the future? And just feeling that kind of-- I just need a job where I'm going to have to take out a private loan feeling. I think the part-- I totally get that. I think you just do have to take the job. And there are blood realities of being a student and living in a capitalist society. We do need a paycheck. It's hard to be an out-of-the-situation. I think our reminder of just that it is temporary. You can do anything for a year or two and come out on the other end. And so just remind yourself that you can make it through that and you can find something else on the back. And then also put yourself in a place where you are more stable and can afford to be a little bit cheesy. What makes these things unwindier right now, not that stressful as I have the luxury of choice. And so I get to take my time and get to sit and think about things. But that wouldn't have been possible if I didn't just take the job that get handed to me. Which ended up being a great job. But it was doing work that I never contemplated doing. In a practice area that I never thought I would practice in. So take the job. Gain the experience. Become the candidate that will reenter and try again. And trust trust your gut. Saying it twice. Trust your gut. Trust your gut. To not be high. Feel like the open to the opportunities that come your way. I found great mentors and business partners and podcast friends. And just great people along the way that if I hadn't kept an open mind or just had gotten too cynical about it all, I never would have found it. So I do think that even when you're in the situation that maybe wasn't your dream, you do get a buy-in, at least a little bit. And it can be a temporary buy-in. But I think buying in and making those experiences happen is really important. This is a temporary thing. And you're building towards a different outcome and a different future. But a buy-in is important. And I think trust your gut is important. I 1,000% agree with that. I'll read her. in that first real legal job that I was miserable in, I took advantage of every single opportunity thrown my way. It might have been what contributed to be being so miserable 'cause I was working all of the time, but I met a lot of people, I did a lot of things, it made me better, and there's gonna be a downside and an upside to everything, find the upside. Yeah, find the upside. And just try to make the best of the handrake dealt. Last question, when is it time to go? Well, I feel like that is truly the hardest question you've asked the seat name. It is really a breakup, honestly. I think it really is, I was hoping we'd get here and talk about this. So we often talk, actually, about comparing this process you're going through to dating. It's 100% dating. It is probably more dating than dating at this point. Well, only 'cause you're married to the love of your life, but yes. Wouldn't it be lovely if like law firms were on a dating app? And you could just swipe through. You could have this N-A-L-P. Yeah, but that's not the same thing. I want to see, give me a voice note, and linking to your Instagram. Let me see the real side of things, or at least the polished real side of things, but much of dating law firms is very closed off and black box. And you have to already know someone, to know someone, to be able to go to happy hour and have an honest conversation about what it's like. Otherwise, you're getting the same marketing pamphlet from everything. And so, that's hard, I think. I'm notoriously that, that, at that, in my personal life. Like, pre-hazband, I did not know when to walk out the door. Like, I would give you a thousand in one chances. All of my friends are taking me out to say, you're being an idiot. It is time to go. He is telling you that this is not work. Like, it could not be more clear. And you're just sitting there like, "But I love him." And refusing to see the obvious. And so, I think I'm not going at knowing when it's time to go. But I also think I went to, like, a lot of therapy over breakups. And I feel like that, it's translating to knowing when it's time to go professionally. It's not easy, right? Because there is the buy-in. And so, I bought in. And I built these great relationships, and had this great experience. And did really get to a point where I was like, if he like, I actually probably could stay here. Like, maybe this is the forever. And then it hit that point in time, where it felt like this was settling. Maybe there is something better out there. Maybe for you. For me, maybe this isn't where forever lies. I think if you've dated, you've also hit that moment. And I think if you've dated, you've also hit that moment in relationships. Or can I, well, this is fun. This is been good. Like, there's some upsides, there's some downsides to what we just went through. But, kind of thinking, we're not destined for the altar. And I think that is really kind of the realization you come to professionally, too. You're looking for the altar. I'm looking for the altar. And, I don't know, you know, divorce rates are high. But I like to believe that you can still find it forever. You're going to spend this much time of your life in a place really investing. Your brain power, your energy, your emotional energy. It has to feel good. Yeah. And especially, again, like life of a litigator, there have been some cland darker moments in the midst of litigation and really heavy time periods. Where you start doing the math. How much time have I spent here at the office versus in my own home, let alone meaningfully interacting with my spouse. And the math is not good. I live in this office and with these co-workers. And I have spent so much more time with my co-workers than I have. My husband, and I think it is really a hammered home that it has to be the right people. It has to be the right fit. Because I feel pretty lucky to be able to be really choosy in this moment to make sure that it is the right fit. Because we get to people, getting in place. [Music] Thanks for joining the conversation. You can find Bar Review wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe and share. Want to keep the conversation going? Follow us on social at Bar Review LLC. Onnick will see you there, and she'll tell me all about it. Got a question you want us to tackle in a future episode? Send it our way. We try to read every you know. And just a reminder, we are not your lawyer. This is not legal advice and these opinions are just our own. Cheers! [Music]