Wendy Red Star - Episode 46

Speaker 1 All right, let's do this. Peanut if you're staying Hello and welcome to the photo work podcast, too talky and touchy-feely version of my book photo work, 40 photographers on process and practice. I'm Sasha wolf recording once again from the bearsville. Her in Woodstock, New York. Thank you bearsville. Theater everyone check out what they've got going on Rod, great stuff coming up this summer and I'm joined as usual by my friend and producer. You know, I'll just say that one thing that was really disappointing for me, personally, was that I found out from the last episode, The Mimi Kwame episode, where I wasn't involved in the intro that this guy, this guy, I'm going to introduce in a second, but that this guy while introducing now this guy, Michael chosen, Dalton doesn't need me. Not true. Doesn't need me for two years, two years. We've been bantering and, and doing all this fun stuff together. And then I find out that I'm Superfluous, just absolutely unnecessary. And not only that, let me give you Little inside, baseball folks. Oh, what you don't know is that I would say we get the intro in one, take maybe 40% of the time. Yeah, usually that's fair. There's there's some stumbles and falls and and I'm just going to be honest and say that I am responsible for those the vast majority of the time. And so, and so I hear this Mimi problem intro, and it is so smooth, and I know he got it in one. Take and it wasn't, huh, what? Nope. Nope, no. I go back and forth. I tried different things. He's still my heart, but I will say, I was both proud of you and quietly devastated that did such a great job with that. Out me, how about how about? Thank you know, but it's not fun for me, but it's I'm sure it's nowhere near as fun for the audience to not have a little banter. I don't know. Man, you were so smooth. You were like a, you're gonna get hired by some major radio station? I don't know. Do they do that anymore? I doubt it in Cincinnati. Okay, nobody's gonna get that reference, nobody Oh boy. Oh boy, oh boy. Off the tracks down the road into the field and into the woods. Hello, how are you? Oh, I'm doing. All right. Kids are home planning for the summer good. How is the, how are the trips back and forth from your One recording studio to your other recording studio? Yes bearsville to Manhattan. Yes. All's well, it's actually the easiest drive I have to say but now I'm sort of here. R way more for for people's Amusement. I bought an Airstream. I know I bought a 1988 vintage 31-foot Airstream that I am renovating. So I'm wow. I will just say to all of my artists that I represent. I'm still doing my job. I swear to God. But in every and every free moment actually get up at like, 6 by 7, I'm working on. Then I work and then I go back out and afternoon and work on it. And I'm just about at the point now where I need to hire someone. I've hit a wall and what I'm capable of doing, but it's going to be amazing, little not, you know. Yeah, tiny house. It's seven and a half. The interior is seven and a half by 29 feet, so, but I'm putting a wood-burning stove in. And yeah, it's going to be pretty cool hangout. Wow, I can't wait. Yes. Well you are invited. You You are invited up. Yes, Don's come hang out. We should do a show there. Oh, we should, we should actually be supervised introduction there. Yeah. All right. I like that idea. So before we get to Today's Show, which is one of my favorites, but I just want to say something that's really exciting. This year, Perry photo, and aperture, celebrating their 10th anniversary of the photo book awards. This yearly started in 2012 and if you don't know there's three major categories, First photo book and that category is accompanied by a prize of 10,000 hours, photo book of the year and photography catalog of the year. And even if you don't win one of those three main prizes, there are 35 shortlisted books every year and they can exhibit it around the world. Yeah, they are seeing at Perry photo, which is just a massive event or tens of thousands of people go through, but they're also exhibited at print, Did matter in New York they'll be at the photo 2022. International Festival photography and Melbourne Museum of Photography and soul and many other places. So you can actually check out all the other places with. I'll be seeing on the aperture website aperture dot-org. But the call is open now through September 9th to submit. Keep that in mind everyone it's really a very prestigious thing and Just brings books, a tremendous amount of exposure. So, you know, on top of that, all that exposure, I know my social media just fills up with these photo book, award categories and winners and as soon as it's all an ounce oh yeah a lot of exposure with the yeah sure definitely. Okay. So moving on today's episode was with the great artist. Wendy red star. I loved talking to Wendy. What did you think of the episode? This episode was enlightening and I don't know if I've ever said that about another episode. You know, usually I love it. I love your guests because I can identify with some process or identify with something. They go through as artists and all this was very different. I was riveted by this, this conversation of things. I've I couldn't identify with that, I not dealt with in my own career and you have this conversation about dealing with trauma and Humor. And I don't want to give too much away. It's so good and the role of the Artist as the communicator and what responsibility, the artist has to, you know, let people in on what's going on. And also allow people to discover for themselves, what's happening in the work? And I boy, I just ate it up. It was so good, just so good. Yeah, Wendy's really charismatic and very warm, really fun. Any humor is a huge part of our practice which we talked about a lot so not surprisingly you know she's sort of very similar to her work. Her vibe is very similar to the vibe of her work and she had a lot to say about that and about just the way her work is perceived in sort of the white European American culture. She's Crow. Native American if you don't know. And yeah, It was really enlightening for me as well. So both the conversation of course, you know, doing the research before I talk to her and right? Just some loving every moment of that research, to be honest, it was really fun. Sort of really, yeah, deep diving into into her background. Well, fantastic, let's just get to it because it is, it's a really interesting episode and it's really fun. I mean, I don't want to overstate my importance or whatever but I Wendy and I had a really good rapport, so it's a fun episode and it moves really moves. Absolutely. Yeah, we connected and I say, think so. All right, Michael. Well, without further Ado, please take it away my pleasure. And here's your conversation with Wendy red star, Wendy red star. Welcome to the No work podcast. Thank you so much for being here with me today. I'm a huge fan of your work and so this is exciting for Speaker 2 me. Thank you. I'm just delighted to be here. It's an honor. Thank you. Speaker 1 So we start every episode with the journey that the artist made that that got them to where they are today. Right now, sitting wherever they're sitting talking to me. So if you could give us your journey from, you know, where you were born and raised and everything along the way. That seems Speaker 2 relevant. Yeah I think that's such an interesting question for me right now. I'm 41 and I used to answer this question that is sort of was like a haphazard fly by the seat of my pants way of getting to where I am. But the more I think about the work that I'm doing, the more that I know that this is, this is my life's purpose is to me making the work. That I'm doing. That is an honor and restoring and digging into archives and history and creating records for my community and bringing those two light to the general public. So I grew up on the Crow. Indian Reservation, my dad is Wallace, red star. He's Upsala Gat and my mom is Molly Malone and she is White of very proud Irish descent and she was a public health nurse at the Indian Indian Health Service. And so she's originally from Colorado area and so they had me and I have a sister who my mom adopted when she was stationed in Korea. She's about four and a half years. Older than me, her name is Chelsea and I just grew up in a really Multicultural And then also, in the curl culture and participating in the crow culture and sort of soaking all of that up. And I think from there left to Montana State University in Bozeman and earned a BFA in sculpture. And then from there, I went to UCLA and earned an MFA. And yeah, I just became very focused. Once I left the reservation about learning and picking up on things that were happening outside the reservation and on my reservation just from having that sort of perspective of distance and it just became very rich material for me to keep digging into and became very relevant. And I think, oftentimes people think of me as a photographer even though my background is, and the three dimensions. And when I think about it, I've always been interested in photo, especially the photos of my community and the stories that those Tell that's basically my story and I'm based in Portland, Oregon, Speaker 1 one thing that I'm always really interested in. It's funny because of my own artistic Journey which started in high school and it was just so blew my mind when I realized I could fumble through making art but when did you start making art? So that, you know, you knew that's what you wanted to do in college. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I was always making art there's like pictures from my childhood drawings that I made that Are the same kind of interests that I have today and my artwork like cultural events and things like that. And then I think what's really important to state is that I had a really hard time in school, especially learning the conventional way. And unfortunately, I always thought that I wasn't as smart as everybody else and it really took me a lot longer to sort of grasp the Channel Concepts, but once I did, I was, you know, I kind of knew them through and through. And so, I think not fully sort of understanding that when I went Speaker 1 into college. This is, Speaker 2 what am I going to do? Everything is very challenging for me, and but then, I, you also have the thing about going into the Arts. You can't make a living that way. So, you know, family time. Telling you that. So I originally chose graphic design mmm-hmm and through that I took foundational art courses. And from there, the sculpture Professor Speaker 1 sculpture really clicked for Speaker 2 me. But the sculpture Professor is like, I really think you need to switch your major over. And then what I soon realized is that actually that's how I learn and that's how I can convey, you know what I'm learning. So It is through making art and that actually didn't really click until probably after grad school that I was realizing like. Oh this is actually my way of learning and not only is it my way of learning but it's also my way of being able to share all of this research in the way that it sort of filters through me. And then in, in this visual form, which is a way for me to connect. T' to people, all of these things that I want to convey, where I couldn't do that. If in like your standard writing, an essay or doing something scientifically or something like that, right? Speaker 1 Yeah. So I feel like I Speaker 2 just sort of woke up to that after graduate school, but there was definitely a shift when I was told sophomore year like to switch into Speaker 1 sculpture one thing that first of all, to say that, you know, I think for a while, Of artists, they they're not great academically, I mean it's not always the case but of course it is common, you know, Finding refuge and an art and you know gaining some confidence than about oneself or at least finding you know a place a home if physics class just wasn't doing it for you. I joke around but I'm really not joking that I really don't know how I graduated from high school. School because I either failed or got D's and so many classes but not art. So I want to just this may be a funny place to start but it's so meaningful to me because I just love this about your work so much. So I wanted to ask you about this, I wanted you to talk about this a bit more and aperture magazine. You have a conversation with a Baki back and a bock. He's asking you about humor and you say in my own Crow Community, we have a whole policing system that Is teasing, anytime a tribal members getting egotistical, there's a cousin who will notice it and their job in a community is to make fun of you and bring you down a couple of notches. If you are sick, their purpose is to come and joke with you. So it's very natural for me. Humor is healing to me. Like you mentioned with laughing at funerals, everyone is so sad at that moment to have a little bit of laughter, is healing to have that element. And my work is quite native or Crow and I'm glad that it comes through its Universal people. Can connect with the work that way. They can be open to talking about race. I just love that because your work so much, not all of it, but so much of your work is really funny and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know that it was a part of your culture, you know, I was just like a Wendy, so funny, but but can you talk about that? Because I just think it's really fascinating. And, and maybe to ask this in a slightly more Like way to help you out a bit. So, it's not so broad. When did you realize that you were really wanting to use a lot of humor? Did you connect it back immediately to a cultural Speaker 2 thing? Yeah, I love our whole system of the way, our communities operates and I love tying it back to the historical as well. So I think it's important for me to state that the Salah go tribe has a clan system and the way the Clans work are that they're matrilineal. So the fact that my mom's white, I would have to and in anybody whose mother is not Crow you would use your father's mom's Clan. So I use my grandmother's Clan and she is a scam. Yes, that's how you say it. Which I'd love this. Clan were known as the treacherous lodges. I just love Speaker 1 From Speaker 2 the treacherous Clan and there's wonderful names like the greasy Mouse and the big lodges. And anyway, so I'm from the treacherous Clan, Speaker 1 which it's funny to me in itself should have known. Speaker 2 So I'm kind of like a double Ash kamiya. The way you say it in English is Pagan as well. So it's all of those things but for instance, in case of my dad, he would be Escambia. And then his father, he's a sore loser. It so my dad's teasing cousins would come from my grandpa's Clan and I always love that there's this set of teasing cousins and to me it really is about having a lot of Pride and honour and so everybody is sort of just sort of holding each other up but also it's about humility. So yeah, there's something you're still on the ground. So nice about that. Because in Western Society, it's all It's not that at all especially when we think about, like social media and all of that, everybody's sort of presenting themselves and the best. And it would be so amazing if like well I mean I guess there are trolls and things like that but there's no healing from a troll, right? There thing is just to write you Speaker 1 down. Yeah. So I always Speaker 2 love that concept and it's always so fun when I do, go back to the reservation and I'm with My dad, and sometimes people want to avoid a certain place because he knows his teasing cousin works there. And he's like, I'm just not up for it right now or sometimes. So, really want to go there and, like, see his teasing cousin and by a distance. Yeah, so just to have this whole history is, is I think very amazing and beautiful. So, there's always that. But in general, my family and just curl people and I guess if I want, Out on a limb and be super General. A lot of native people that I meet from other tribes, there's just sort of this inside humor that we all have and maybe it's like planes natives. We're we're sort of teasing each other if they find if like a Lakota person finds out I'm Crow. You know historically we were enemies so we'll sort of like rib each other on that and it's just it's really nice. It feels like we're connecting. So for me I've always had, I've always had that sort of example, but I think a big thing is that we're communities that come from a lot of trauma and the work and the research that I do trauma is always there. Hmm, you know, you just scratch the surface and you're going to hit trauma right away. And so, it's almost a way for me to also protect myself because, you know, takes a lot to, to look into this research and to absorb it and filter. It. And so, one of those filters is, how did we come out of this and sort of looking at things from skewed, angles, and immediately, when I started making artwork, that was really based in concept and history and archives that immediately came up for me. And then I realized this is actually great way, not only for me to get through this material but for people who are viewing this, as The Connecting Point. And then from there, it's just sort of, kind of all of my work. Even if you see work that you don't think has any humor to it, you need to ask me about it and I'll tell you, there's something in there for me that I found to be funny or ironic or yeah. I I would say every piece of work I do has to have that Speaker 1 ingredient, you know, one Series where it's really I think overt. But then I do wonder if Everyone gets it but of course you know, that's could wonder about that forever. But really is just so profound is the Four Seasons series. Can you describe that Series so we can talk about it a little Speaker 2 bit? Yeah. So the four seasons was produced when I was in like the final year of graduate school at UCLA in 2006. And basically the concept was that I wanted to recreate Natural History diarrhea, Rama's and you know, the four different seasons and place myself within those dioramas because I had my own experience of going to the Natural History Museum in Los Angeles on a bet with myself that I could. If I went there I bet I could find some Crow cultural material and I did. And that was the first time that I actually walked into a cultural institution like that. With some critical thinking and not just being spoon-fed, whatever the institution gave me, or the direction in which I was supposed to view things. So in that experience, I produced these for works that were originally I thought of them as installation and then photograph them as like a record. And now they know their format is that they are Speaker 1 photographs right. How large are they? Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, the well they've come in a Two additions. And I'm going to just say this roughly, I think the large one is like 30 by 40 and the smaller size is around, maybe a little bit bigger than 16 by 20. Speaker 1 So what's intense about working at the series is that they are really funny because you you have all these, you know wacky elements that are in the Tableau you know, blow up an All's and one-dimensional, cardboard, cutout animals, and the grass is AstroTurf. And so, when you really look, you know, you Raph, but of course, it's also not even quietly devastating, but just overtly devastating because, you know, I myself I grew up in New York City going to the Museum of Natural History and this is going to connect to something else. You've talked about which I think is really important for us too. Talk about a bit, which is this way in which American culture has almost made it seem as if Native American culture and Native Americans are a thing of the past and you really realize that when you go and you don't realize that you realize the way that is sort of I'm reinforced. Yeah. By seeing these dioramas in a museum next The dinosaurs, you know, it's like so bizarre and, you know, and getting ready to talk to you and really thinking about everything and it was devastating, you know, it's really upsetting and that series is really upsetting but also really funny and so you know, it's such a sort of like I mean I think this is a not a lot of your work and it's a lot of the genius of your work because you don't really feel, it doesn't feel hot. Hostile. Right? It doesn't feel. I didn't feel like you are making fun of me in a way, that was mean-spirited. There's nothing means spirited about it. Yeah, but it is incredibly enlightening and it really makes you think. And the humor is there. It's funny. The humor is there in a teasing way, maybe, like, one of your t's and cousins, but, you know, meant to really sort of bring you down and make you think, but not because Rule that? I mean, does that sound right? Like the way you think about it? Speaker 2 Yeah, and I love that emotional roller coaster, and it's wonderful to hear that. That work is providing that range of emotion. I think that's why that work has been such an important work for my career and I mean, I think the Four Seasons as its own entity now and she's like, got got a fascinating career going on. Like so many, I'll get a Google alert and I'll be like, oh, so she's in that exhibition right now. That's cool. You know, I'm just working to like, you know, catch up. But I've had, it's like that work. I mean, I loved to talk to other artists that have worked like that in their practice because I truly do think that It keeps doing work for me and it's been like super helpful but as a young artist, it was such a powerful work that often felt like that's the only work that people were interested in. So it's so. So I have sort of an interesting Dynamic of my own with that work, but then it's been, I think, such a critical piece for institutions and institutions, realizing they really are lacking that. Voice in that perspective and it really becomes sort of a bridge for so many things within the institution and the different Galleries and collections. But no, it, I love the fact that you say that I'm it's not mean hearted and I think if we were to talk about teasing cousins, again, I really what they're trying to do is teach Speaker 1 you a lesson, so that you can Speaker 2 learn and be a better person. And so it's great. Do you hear the Four Seasons is doing that? I mean, yeah, 100% turning back to you and, and you have to do the work and and that's what I, that's what makes it such a great piece because you, you get to take something away from it. And, and, and do the Speaker 1 work. One other thing that I noticed or observed about you, as I, it feels like you are someone who gets incredible. Mount of Joy from adding detail detail detail detail. And one series that, I love that. I saw it and asked mocha last summer is the 1880, peace delegation series. Can you describe that for folks? And I mean, it is, you know, I'll just say quickly that like, my ex Gallery manager and I used to joke about like our A sphere when people came into the gallery was what we called the 360 which is someone takes like five steps in, does a 360 and walks out and we were like, not enough detail. In other words, whatever was up on the walls. Didn't they didn't feel the need that they had to go up and really walk. Yes. And your work is the exact like it cannot be denied if you don't go up and look you know, especially with this 1880 piece dog, Asian then, you know, you're just goodbye. We don't care about you just go off and maybe you need to use the restroom or something that's fine, but because this work demands that you come in and interact with it. So but why don't you describe what it is? Speaker 2 Yes. So the 1880 Crow, peace, delegation is a work that I produced in 2014 for a solo show. I had at the Portland Art Museum and The inspiration for digging into that body of work was there was a lot of talk about cultural appropriation of native imagery. It was like trending, very hard. And I started reflecting on that and thinking like we're and Crow culture. Upsala culture has there been cultural appropriation and then it made me think of this chief of ours medicine Crow. And the reason why I thought of him was because there's this beautiful portrait of him sitting on On this chair and that image, there's two images from, it seems like from the same portrait session that have been used on book, covers on honesty, murals, and so many artists, I've seen like that will make paintings of that. This is like, what is this? Because I love the photos because they're powerful, he's very handsome, and, and nose and cheekbones. Yes. And his Outfit is just meticulous. And so then I was like, wait a minute. I've never ever sat down and asked anything about this photo. And that, and so that's what happened. I just asked what what's going on with this photo. What happened that day, that he sat down to take this photo. It's like, where was this photo taken? And it's amazing. I think this is so important that the information is there, and it's waiting for you and it's pretty easy. Easy to get, I think maybe that was, maybe why I never questioned because I thought those are answers would be really hard to find and they're not a quick Google search and so basically, what I found was this these two images were taken in Washington d.c. by Charles Milton Bell and 1880. And it was for a delegation trip of group of six crew chiefs went from Crow country, which was located in They travel to Washington, d.c. because the US government was trying to put a train through a large tract of our territory. So the surprising thing for me was it wasn't just him but there were these five other Chiefs. I had no idea that there were these delegation trips that were happening between native people and the US government. So, you know, there were Lakota an Osage all traveling around around that time period and the late 1800s to up until the mid 1900s sitting down with US presidents. And from there, I just started doing more questions in research. And through that, I produced this body of work that focus on five of the Chiefs and I selected two portraits from each photo session with them. And Speaker 1 Just Speaker 2 decided that I want really wanted to look. And the way for me to do that, I decided was to trace them in red and everything that they were wearing I outlined. And then in that process, I would start seeing things and then I reveal. What is that? Oh, that's Urban that fur is ermine and it represents that they captured a gun, which is one of the five or at the for Coos. That you would need to do in order to be a chief. So, all of these things just started like pouring out, it was like the it was like the images were wanting to talk to me and this is incredible. And I, you know, was so engaging for for me and it was almost like the images were screaming to me. And so there's something about that and just being really super intimate with each of these individuals. Right? So just wanted to provide that in a way Other people would be able to see how much this this black and white image had to offer. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, they're really striking. So they're black and white images and you've used. I mean, it looks like, I must like a red Sharpie or something, and just point it out, you know, the different jewelry and hair extensions hairstyles, just what different things signified, what they were and you do add some funny, commentary course in some of them. And it's just they're so magnetic, you know, I mean, I remember when I saw them, just standing there, you know, just being like, I have to read every word like this is amazing. And then, when something funny pops up, you're like, wait what, you know, because because it goes from something really serious to something really funny. Wait, I'm gonna have the book in front of me. I'm going to look for an example that I Oh, here's one. It's like all this serious stuff and then I can kick your ass with these eyes. Oh my God. Yeah, looks like to belly. I mean, the way you're looking at, yeah, Speaker 2 totally. Like, I was just imagining him like walking in and like mean, mean mugging somebody and it's like, definitely all he'd have to do is just look at you. Yeah. And you'd be like, Oh, I'm sorry, excuse me. Speaker 1 I'm in the wrong room I think you like Speaker 2 did I write like that? He was like 6 foot for something and I foresaw this odd fact. Somebody measured his chest to and I was like, oh, so like they're just like these weird things that are out there. That is like I want to include these but then there's also just from growing up on the reservation. Some of these cheese have descendents most of them and you just hearing some of the you know just the local reservation gossip. You know, I had to include in there too. Speaker 1 Mmm, a reservation gossip so well, I love your needs and so much of your work that you know, extra detail that makes you. You know, it's the thing I think as an artist you want, right for people to not be able to leave the artwork, you know, to not do the 360 but to really just stand there and and be given its it pays off any some Times you're standing there with artwork and you're just going, I don't get Speaker 2 it. What? Maybe if, I think Speaker 1 really hard and use all of my gray matter, I'll be able to figure out what it means, you know, but that's not what you're doing. You know, we stand there and we work and we spend more time with your work and it just it actually gives. So you don't have to go through that terrible process of is it just me and my not getting it? You know. It's like you're not even in that space you're just absorbing all these wonderful tidbits of information. Speaker 2 Formation, you know, I think in talking about that because you did ask me about detail. And I think for me, again, there's this cultural element to it that drives that detail and meaning in detail, and it's just the way in which it really shows, and that body of work, that everything has a meaning to it. So everything that those men are wearing has a specific symbology to it, right? Yeah. And so I think that's why detail is so important to me. Because in those details there's something really kind of incredible. It's not just the hair extensions. There's there's a whole meaning that it it equals power and then you know that they were made from people in morning who cro cultural tradition when people die, your close family members will often cut off their hair. So all of those things I'm like So important juicy like, yeah, I need to, I need to convey that. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, it's really great. And, you know, or out of that, you know, not not as specific as what you just said. But but certainly power like a rock, can be inferred. Hmm. And so it is, it's wonderful experience, interacting with with your work. So let me ask you about sort of a big philosophical thing. You said this and I think it was also an aperture as a brown artist your work. Has political whether you like it or not. Even if you are doing abstract painting as soon as someone finds out you're Brown. They think this is about racism. The first time I came across, this is when I was an undergrad and I was erecting teepees around campus. I had discovered that Bozeman Montana was Crow territory. I wanted everyone to know that this was Crow territory. I didn't even think of it as political, I just thought this is true. It wasn't until years later that I realized they are saying, it's political, because it's against the colonial standard. I don't aim To do political work but it becomes political because it's talking outside. The colonial framework, you know? This just struck me as being like this is the conversation right now about so much like you know, when a black artist does like a series on their family, it's considered being about identity and it's like, yes, everything is about identity. You can't just say it's about identity because it's about a black family. You have to be Say that then about any white artists work about their family that it's about identity also, it's just it's so right. Of course, it's about identity and at the same time it's almost like a trick description. Like it's so reductive. Speaker 2 Yes. So I don't know, I just wondered. Speaker 1 If you could talk about that a bit as opposed to me talking about it talk, talk about specifically. Yeah, just about like how frustrating that Must have been that experience and well that Speaker 2 experience. Yes, I think it was actually very actually kind of trauma for me. Yeah. And I actually kind of think I realized, you know, soon as I left my community off the reservation, it's something that I've and a position that I've been placed in constantly as sort of like, like an educator position. And then also sort of placed in a position where I forget what you call this like where Or the speaker for all Native American. Yeah, you're right. The representative right? You representative. Yes. And I'm like, there's no way I would ever want that position. Nor, you know, so I think for me, it was like, oh, how do I contend with this? And it's so interesting. I have a 14 year old daughter and people so do that to her. Now she yeah, yes she is. But she's going to tell, you know, She's being buried her independent self but we all know, we all know the truth but she she's being put in that position to and I was like darn, you know? That's so yeah. So tough. And I think ultimately, what it does is it makes you feel other dirt. Yes. And I didn't realize this until actually just a couple years ago because I was starting to get some sort of anxiety about doing lectures and things like that. And then the questions at the end. The end because some of the, a lot of the questions are pointing out to, like, how different I am, or my community is, and I know there's other ways in which we can close that Gap to, to really, just speak to each other, as relating human beings. But so often these questions are posed, as like, you're quite alien, is how it comes off. And then years worth of Happening. I was realizing oh, you know, it's actually sort of triggering this like isolating feeling that I have. So yeah, that was hard but you know, now I feel like now that I know what sort of happening to me that it's not my problem. Mmm, it really is a reflection of everybody else and where they're at, in their understanding. And I think the way for me to March forward is understanding that the work that I'm doing is important. Aunt and necessary and that's where I'm going to put my focus and when people catch up, they'll catch up. But I'm not going to wait for them, or I'm not going to hold their hand through it. And I think as a younger artist, I thought I had to hold everybody's hand through it. And I thought I had to be that educator person, and that's asking that's asking a lot. And I think right now and switching to just sort of like you talking about the Four Seasons, How you had to do a lot of the reflecting and was placed on you. I think that's what we need. I think we need people now and institutions now to do the work and not put that burden on the people who are actually triggered and traumatized by it. Well, Speaker 1 so, you know, it doesn't do me any good for you to tell me how I should feel, you know, I mean yes I have to, you know, get there on my own or it's not going to be it's going to be a surface experience. I In order for it to be a deep experience. I have to get there on my own. Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely. And I think even thinking about that, Professor, an undergrad, who said you make really political work. I actually really kind of hurt me because for some reason I was thinking I was bad like I was being bad and so I kind of walked away from that comment feeling like I had done something wrong. Now I'll be like oh if I had that moment to go back and just place that question. Can't that person? Hmm. And then I think it would be quite clear to them. Speaker 1 Yeah. How that question comes across. Yeah. His existence is political to you. Mmm. So in the time we have left which is not a ton, let me just ask you a few sort of big already questions. Do you work? I mean, I know, artists tank. So I'm not assuming anything but your work feel. So confident. Do you work with a lot of confidence or is that you go through the The the normal trials and tribulations of confidence that many artists do. Oh, I love, I love that. It Speaker 2 comes off as confident. No, I told her. I totally, I totally have those struggles. It's they don't teach you the business aspects of being an artist and all of that. So I think, you know, the struggle for me is Like, carving out, time to make work in to think. And that actually, for me is like kind of the biggest roadblock, so Speaker 1 he set out of bed, explain that a bit more. Um, so yeah, Speaker 2 typically and you've met my very wonderful. You haven't met her, but email exchanges with my studio assistant, who's basically taking up a lot of my admin. But I had no idea at least the way that my Practice is shaking out how much administrative e-mails back and forth with several institutions and different ass and since my practice has been primarily Museum based, I'll get asked to do an exhibition a year or two years in Speaker 1 advance. Speaker 2 And so that's also kind of hard like something that I'm excited about right now in the moment. And then they're like, okay, it's time for that show. Two years down the road. I feel like I've grown I asked those concept, right? Yeah. So there's all these sort of things that are counter to creativity. Yeah. And so those things definitely caused me to struggle. I think deadlines and having things on the calendar are you know the things that are great motivators. Yeah. Yeah. But once I get into it, I just love. I mean that's what keeps me doing. What I do. It's so Speaker 1 addictive and you come to your work. It's Seems like in the reading I was doing about you that you you sort of find your projects in the archives or Alright you're researching something and that's parks and idea is that your arrest process that your process? Speaker 2 Absolutely. Yeah. In the archives it could be in a photo or it could be in an object and again it's like that 1880 where I just start asking a question and then usually there's amazing. Story that then is launching off point Speaker 1 and you feel comfortable waiting for those things to sort of come to you. Do you ever are you ever in panic mode bike? Where's my next great idea? Or you? How Jewish are you? That's what I'm asking. Speaker 2 Hey, I did ask the curator at Mass mocha. She said, if I asked her three times said, she would adopt me into the Jewish Speaker 1 Community. All right. Well, I am a student. We are, we are funny people also born at Speaker 2 trauma. Exactly. We Speaker 1 don't want you here. Get off. Move Speaker 2 on. I would say that. The archives are. So there's so much Rich material that know they're constantly. Isn't source of inspiration about your bike, where do I start Speaker 1 right? So much? Yeah, yes. So last question the, our friends at aperture would kill me if I left this out and I don't want to leave it out. I swear I don't want to people at aperture. How do you feel about the book? And how does it, what is it? Like, having your first big book? It's a beautiful book. I really and I love often. I'm very cranky about a lot of text but I really like the text in the book and I think it's Really readable and I love the design of the book and the weight of it. And the feel it's a really nice object to just put in your lap and and work through. So that's how I feel about the book. But what's it been like? Speaker 2 Oh my God, I'm I'm blown away. It's we've been working on it for over a year with the Brendan Abner, the editor, the amazing designer and Emily Anderson, and And from the start, because I'm also like text is also hard for me, as like, I really would like this. To be its own artwork, and really thinking about it as an art object and I think we were able to pull that off. Yeah, so that was incredible and just having the opportunity and the generosity to be able to reflect on my work for this monograph. Been so rewarding, it's also been very hard. I'm super impressed with how aperture produces all the work that they do, but I would say that I, I'm a little bit in shock about it. I'm just shocked, but I'm thrilled. I mean, it's incredible. I have a monograph. I can't believe Speaker 1 it. Yeah, and it's really beautiful. It really is it stands out. It's like it's it's it's own thing. It has so much personality. Personality which of course, it would be bizarre if it didn't because your work has so much personality but they were able to really sort of hang with you, right? Like the book If the book has so much of its own, just Verve to use word, I don't know why that popped into my head but you know, it's just like it's got a lot of energy and and, and so it sort of matches up with your work and that way. And so yeah, congratulations. It's really amazing. Speaker 2 Thank you. I really appreciate that. Speaker 1 So we are at that Mark that time. So I'll wrap it up and Wendy. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I really was looking forward to getting to know you. And yeah, so thank you so Speaker 2 much. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Speaker 1 Okay, you take care. Speaker 2 Alright, bye bye. Speaker 1 Bye. Photo work with Sasha wolf is produced by me. Michael Joven, Dalton a real photo show. The associate producer is Taylor cells back. And the executive producer is Sasha wolf. Our theme music is by Jay, Walter Hawks. If you like the show, be sure to subscribe and rate US with all the stars available on your listening platform.