Wendy Goldstein | The Art of Building Superstars

- I made that decision my first week on the job to sign the roots. Thank you next, Ariana Grande, perfect example. - Yep. - She called and said I want to drop it, Friday. Music has to be in the moment. It's not about what you like, it's about what works. ♪ Again and again and again and again ♪ - Ladies, James Hillman and everyone in between, this is iconic. This is a historical moment in not just un-famous history, in all of podcast history. My guest today has never done an interview this in depth. She is my favorite ANR in the history of music. I don't care if people get mad at me for that. You can be in the comments and yell at me. Not only is she my favorite because I love her, but she is my favorite because also, I need to say, she's not just an ANR anymore. She is the CCO and the chairperson of Republic Motherfucking Records. And she has ANR, very small artists that you maybe have heard of like the weekend, Ariana Grande, Nicki Minaj, the list go, Jonas Brothers. - Jonas Brothers, thank you. Help me help me. - To name a few. - To name a few. Can we give everyone here today? Can we give a huge warm welcome to my hero Wendy Goldstein? - Trying not to be embarrassed, Douga. - It is, it is the most awkward part of the podcast when I have to introduce the person while they just sit there. - I know, it's like a God, what does he gonna say? - So I am lucky enough to know a lot of your amazing story. - That's true. - We have a history. - We have a history. You've changed my life multiple times. Change my parents life. They've been able to retire because of such. - I love your parents. - You've put me in. So I know a lot about your history, but I think a lot of people are gonna be very curious because you are one of the most successful ANRs in the history. So people are gonna wanna know everything. - Okay. - You started as a DJ. - I did. I know your stories of clubs you DJed and like how that helps you get into the business, but I don't even know how it started. How did you start it? - It started because I grew up in New York. It was the '70s. No one was watching us. We didn't have cell phones. And I started going to clubs at 15 because the drinking age in New York at that time is 18. - So 15th close enough? - I think you had a fake ID. They didn't have photo IDs back then. So as long as it matched your height and your eye color, you could be anyone. - Oh, that. - Unbelievable. So of course through my clubbing and hanging out at the band shelter in Central Park, not going to high school really. I met some very interesting people. And one of the people I've met was a 30 year old gay man named Richard Vasquez, who was a graphic designer by day, and a DJ by night. And Richard had a brown stone on the bowry, the bowry in second to be exact, which was a shitty neighborhood back then. But he owned this building and his brother lived on the bottom three floors, which went subterranean. And he had three floors in a roof deck. And on the second floor, the entire floor was devoted to vinyl and turntables. - Wow. - And he taught me how to DJ. - I did not know this part of the story. That is so cool. - 'Cause you have to learn, especially back then, it was techniques 100, it was a mixing board, it was headphones. You had to count out the BPMs on a stopwatch. Like you really had to know, you're a shit. We used to have little stickers to put the BPMs on the sticker of the vinyl, so that when you were spinning in a club, like you could see it. There was no serato, there was no internet. - Right. - But I credit Richard. - So Richard teaches you how to DJ. Your DJ named off some of the iconic clubs that you played at. - Danceteria, danceteria, danceteria. - And danceteria, I mean that's all you need to say. So your DJ and danceteria, and how does that lead you in to the music business? - It's interesting because I never thought about working for a record company. I was 19, I was going to college, but not really. I was hanging out at Danceteria a lot. And it was the early 80s, I mean the early 80s. A lot of the really, really super cool new wave acts were signed to independent labels in the UK. - Right. - And all those independent labels looking for North American lights and steels. So all of a sudden I would get this flood of A and R people in my DJ booth, which was long in narrow. And I'm trying to pull records and there's a guy in a fedora in a fur coat going like looking through my records and I'm like, can I help you? Like at the out of here. So I met a bunch of A and R people. I didn't even know that was a real thing. - Right. - So I became friends with them. And back then in club and club land they weren't, it wasn't a bottle service. So as a DJ you got X amount of names on the guest list and handful of drink tickets. So you know these day and R guys would call me to put me on the, can you put me on the guest list from Danceteria and it just became friends with them. - Yeah. - One of them, Bruce Harris, who was at Epic Records. - Yep. - He was at Epic Records, 1984 circa Michael Jackson thriller. I mean, it was rockin. It was on fire. One day they leave a message on my machine at home. I was living on 10th Street in Second Avenue. Can you call it? Can you call Bruce? He wants to take you for lunch. So I arrange a lunch for Bruce for the following week. And during the sushi brunch lunch, he says to me, listen, my assistant's getting married. She doesn't want a career in the music business. I want you to take, I think she should take the job. I'd never advocate anyone leaving college, but you clearly don't go. (laughing) So why don't you come and work at Epic? - You're at Danceteria. - You're at Danceteria way too late to get to class. - Exactly. - You can't fool me. - And he's like, I was like, I'll take it. He goes under one condition, I need you to still DJ. You need to be in the clubs. - In the culture. - In the culture. And I work six days a week. That's how I started. - Wow, wow. So I actually do a really, really quick backup for anyone watching who might not know what the term ANR means. Wendy Goldstein, the most iconic living ANR person, can you break it down real quick? - I could break it down very technically in the 40s when big band music started. These labels like chess, the early Atlantic, they would sign artists that were singers, and then thus the artist part of it. Most artists back then didn't write. - Right. - Thus the ANR person was the person who found the artist and found the repertoire. - ANR, that was the start of it. And it obviously is morphed into many different things, but the name of the job is stayed the same. - If you could, and then I'm gonna get back to your story, but just so that people have the context as we talk more about your journey. So that's the original technical term of ANR. What does the daily life of an ANR look like right now? And I was a year now, not Wendy, and not the chairperson. Wendy, 10 years ago, the ANR, what is that look like? - Yes, so I fortunately, in my opinion, came up at a time where there was no internet and there was no research, which was fantastic because you signed what you truly believed in. - You loved. - And you know, research did play some type of role in those signings, meaning if a band was drawing a thousand people, they were sticky, people cared. So that was how we gauged it back then. Today, it's a whole different thing because research has become the driving force in ANR. And everyone has the same data at the same time. So everyone seems to go after the same things because the research quote unquote, according to Eva Lippman, does not lie. So the life of an ANR person today is much different. You know, if you were interested in an artist, when I came up, you actually had to physically go. - Yeah, and see it. - And see it. - Get on a plane, probably. - Get on a plane, get in your car, stay out at a club till four o'clock in the morning. That is all upside down now. - That's completely changed. - Hello, my little un-famous friend. So, the thing about the algorithm, Lomas algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast, unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, what are the old school YouTubers say? Like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please, do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. How do you feel that research leads the way versus passion? So research plays an important role. Indeed, releases play an important role. They work as an incubator for an artist so that when we get them, we could just add water and go, and it still could take five years. So you're looking at, I've never seen a time, like the present, where it's taking longer and longer and longer for artists to break, which is so counterintuitive to the technology. Because if you think about the internet, everyone could get everything all the time wherever they are. So why is it taking longer for artists to break when, before the internet, they actually had a tour and go to cities and get played on radio stations and get supporters and tastemakers to talk about them. Yeah. It is an interesting-- It's an interesting, oxymoron. It really, really is. Okay, so back to your story. My story. Thank you for educating everybody watching. You're no better place to get the education than from Wendy. So back to your story. So you start assisting. What would you consider your first win in the music business? What was the first thing that went, oh, either you got a promotion or what would you consider your first win? Epic records. I was still DJing. And Epic had a first-- well, actually CBS records at the time-- had a first look deal with Virgin. When Virgin was at its height of independent releases in the UK-- Yeah. --and I got my hands on a new record that was only out in the UK, wasn't out in the US. But we played a lot of imports at Tansitaria. It was, you know, the heartbeat of New Wave, hip-hop, and all collided. And I walked in on Monday, and I said to-- and I brought the record in, and I walked in Bruce's office, and I was like, this record packed the dance floor last night. And it was Culture Club. Do you really want to hurt me? He's like, oh, shit, it's on Virgin. I'm like, yeah. Wow. And, you know, we picked it up. And, you know, we did a lot of those kind of things. And shortly after that, Bruce went to RCA, and he took me with him, and I was able to take that enormous leap from being an assistant to being an A&R Scout. Right. For RCA. For Bruce, and it was great, because I had this little interior office. It was 1986, '87. You could smoke in the offices. It was disgusting. I was like, chain smokes. I would have a cigarette lit on the phone, like another one. It kind of gross, but-- But glamorous. So glamorous. And we really did great things at RCA. Wow. You know, house music was starting. Mm-hmm. So one of my first signings back then was a house music group called J.M. Silk Okay. Who wound up being Steve Silk. Hurley, one of the biggest-- Oh, right. House remixers ever next to Frankie Nockles. Of course. The-- What I love about U.D. Jane and saying this record filled the dance floor. That is a lovely old school version of research. Totally. It's a--it's a scene how humans react in real time. You know, DJing is such a great background to do A&R because it teaches you very early on. It's not about what you like. It's about what works. Right. And that's-- A total-- The total antithesis to how A&R people believe they should be. Right. Now, there are certain things I've signed that I love. Love, love, I like, you know, would go home and listen to. Yep. But as you grow up in this industry and as you get to be at a higher level, higher level, your--your job is really providing the release schedule. Yeah. To keep a label hot. However, we need to keep putting music out. Yep. So I'd always have a little bit with myself. For every, like, passion project. Yeah. It was okay to sign something that I knew would sell. Yep. That wasn't necessarily my particular taste. Yeah. And as I got older and got more in tune and refined. Yeah. I learned how to make records that were hits. Yeah. For that artist. Yeah. My opinion about it. Didn't matter. Didn't matter. Yeah. How do you separate in your brain? Because I do the same thing. It's--I'd never liked down the middle pop music. And that's mainly what I wrote. Yeah. So when people were like, oh, which artist do you want to get in with? I was like, all of them. All about one. I don't take anyone. So how do you--because I know in my brain what I'm looking at a song technically. I go, I need the structure to be right. If the artist allows me to make the structure right. Yeah. I need this level of hookiness. I need this level of vulnerability. I need--because I'm looking at most of the things that I write from my quote unquote job, best job in the world. As I think, this isn't music. I would listen to it home for the most part. No. So it becomes technical. Yeah. So how do you separate when you're listening to records that you are deeply passionate about versus records that you know the world's going to be passionate about? Do you listen to them differently? Well, I actually listen to them the same. Because I have this built-in structure and understanding of what I need in a hit song. Because don't forget, until I got to Republic, I wasn't the queen of top 40. I made hip-hop records, a lot of them. Talk about it. I would love to. I know, but let the people know because I think it's fabulous. Somewhere in my career in 1993, I landed at Geffen Records, which was still run by Eddie Rosenblatt and David Geffen still own 51% of it. But the first week on the job, someone turned me on to a group that was playing in the street corner of Philadelphia. They were high school kids, and they were drawing a thousand people. And I'm like, wow, I have to go see this. They go and I meet the manager for a coffee and what I saw was the most incredible level of musicianship ever. And I made that decision my first week on the job to sign the roots. So fucking cool. And proceeded to A&R for albums with them. It took a minute, but they got there. So again, you know, it was always the structure of this song. And we had put out two albums, and they were touring, and they were press darlings, and they kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But we didn't have that elusive hit until the third album. And I remember going, taking the train to Philly, sitting with them in Larry Gold studio going, we have to have a hit on this record. And what is it hit in 1999 for a rap group that is selling half a million records, sold out tours, highest level of musicianship. What does that look like? Yeah. Right. And the truth says it was a song called "You Got Me." And it had all of my personal formula in it. Right. Coming from a DJ background, the first five seconds of a record has to grab you. Yup. If it's not instant, it doesn't matter. Yup. That record starts out with Quest Love, and this great kind of drum kick sneer thing, and you're like sucked in. Yup. Right. And that's what we proceeded to do. Yeah. It's hard. For the, for the, I use Geeks as a term of endearmate. For the Geeks listening to this, break it down from me. First five seconds has to grab you. First five seconds. What else do you need? I need a musical hook. Mm-hmm. That's not the vocal. No. Instrumental hook. In addition to a very catchy, catchy chorus. Yup. And what I mean by a musical hook, because I've studied this so much, funk and soul records are the best example of a perfectly written, executed record, because they start on a riff that becomes a hook of the song. Yup. The. topline melody and the cadence is in the same key with the same pattern. And then if you add it like a catchy chorus, it's hulk, hulk, hulk, hulk. And you think you're just listening to the withers, right? But you realize that when you break it down, there's not a down second in that record. - Yeah. - Never loses your attention. - Yeah. And the, what you're so right about soul and funk records is that the instrumental parts for the most part, Blanket statement, the players on those records are so fucking good. - Unbelievable. - That they're not just playing the chord. - No, they're it's flying the family stone. - Yeah, and I think about that. - Think about that. - Half of the James Brown records, sometimes the instrumental parts, whether it's the bass line or the horn line or whatever, the guitar riff, is sometimes hookier than the vocal. The Ohio players, I mean, it, you could go on and on, Casey and the sunshine, but a lot of that kind of morphed into disco, but those records have a form, a tried and true formula. - So when you, you just so beautifully broke down what you're looking for in a song and a record, what is it about an artist that makes you go, oh fuck, I've, we've got to talk about this in a good way. - Artists have to be superpowers, honestly, they really do. And they come in different shapes and sizes. I'll talk about my Jo Jonas story. - Yeah. - Because when I signed Jo Jonas, it was at a time where the band did broken up. Nick was doing very well with his solo career. I went and met Jo at his house, and we hang hung out for three hours. I left the meeting thinking he's so charismatic, he's such a star. And it's the first and last time ever that I signed an artist because I started following him on Instagram. And his Instagram was so funny, so funny. - Clever. And unlike if we can put this into a record, this could be massive. And he's already halfway there. He's a Jo Jonas brother. People love him. - Love him. - And thus, that's how we met. - That's how we met. - I signed him off of his Instagram. - Oh, crazier things have happened. - Yeah. And then we got to make that first DNC-E album together. - Cake by the ocean changed all of our lives. - Yeah, it really did. It really, and I'll never forget playing you that song. And I had just very recently stopped my hand. - I know. - And so I at the time, still, when I would play an A&R or a manager and artist every song, I would just perform it. It's just a full number in the middle of the studio. And you know, Conway is built amazing studio, one of the best in the world. But it's built old school. So there's a board in there that's so fucking big. So there's really not much room. - It takes a ball the room. - So there's not much room. So you and I are like in a space no bigger than this couch. And I'm like doing a full dance number of cake by the ocean for you. And you're just looking at me with this biggest smile. And I'm like, literally was thinking, I don't think I've ever told you this. In my head, I'm like, she either thinks I'm insane or she loves me or both. And I was like, that song going back to my perfect structure of the song, you know, funk record has all of those elements. You're already in the first five seconds. The guitar line. A hook. And it gets better and better and better from that. And it's the most ridiculous lyric on the planet. But it all worked. Joe, being Joe, being funny and being funny was really able to sell that. So my dream of signing an artist off of Instagram actually worked. - It's one of the most synced songs in history. - That in history that we have, especially at Republic. Because songs about nothing that make you happy are everything. - They can fit into any movie. - They can fit into any movie trail or movie trail or any like, you know, driving to Vegas, you know, bachelor's scene where it just fits anywhere. - Yeah. - How has, whether it's your instinct, whether it's your gut, whether it's your knowledge and deep research of, and I don't mean research in the internet sense, but research in music. - Yes. - How has that evolved over the years? How have you, how has the in our from 1993 changed from to now? - You know, my process has always been somewhat similar in, in a way. And I think again, given that I have a DJ background, I know every record ever made that you can dance to. And because of that, I tend to use a theory what's old is new again. - Yeah. - So I'm constantly digging in the crates to come up with new. For Ariana the way it was big pundits still not a player. - Yeah. - Right. I mean, we have a, the next Kylie Cantrell single is Mary J. Blige, real love. - Yeah. - And I twist them enough where it's the new artist's signature sound. And the records are old enough where their audience won't even know where it comes from. - Right. - But there is something about knowing your references. - Knowing your references, having something that people lean into subconsciously. - Yep. Feels familiar. - Feels familiar. - But you can't use it in a corny way. - Yeah. - You have to use it in a cool way. - Yeah. No, and I think that there's such, you know, there's no fashion designer on this planet that creates a collection without deeply researching a new set of references. - A thousand percent. - And, you know, I think that in the modern world of music, you know, it's like I'll never, you know, the first day I met Julia Michaels heard knowing like deep fion apple cuts. I'm like, you're 19, you shouldn't know this. And you know, who had the exact same similar deep references is in deep in the heat of hell COVID, I did a zoom with Olivia Rodrigo. We ended up never writing because of COVID, but she was also talking about deep singer songwriter album cuts from the 90s. And you can tell the young writers, artists, whatever want to call them, the young ones who are just because they're so passionate, have done their fucking research. - You have to do your research. - There's just a different level of artistry. - And I understand the difference. You know, when I came up, let's say rock and roll, soul, pop music started in with the Beatles in 1962. - Yeah. - So I only had to go back 20 years to do a deep dive into music. If you are 20 years old now, you have to go back 70. I mean, it's, that's a task. So it's harder for them to really gain the knowledge of all of those records. And every time I hear a record, EDM, what was EDM? It was, you know, Frankie goes to Hollywood, art of noise, you know, black box. It was all of those instrumental dance records. That's what it was. That was the foundation. There's not a lot like, you know, the best form of praise is an artist paying homage to someone else. - Yeah. Yeah. - When I played Max Martin the Weekend, you know, what he, his takeaway, oh my god, it's Michael Jackson. - Right. - That wasn't the intention, but that was where his brain was. - Where Max could grasp it. - Where he could grasp it. - Yeah. - And, you know, there is something about that, the art of A&R. - If you don't have that knowledge, you're kind of pissing in the wind. Like just, all right, well, is this good? Is it not good? Like, you know, how do you know? - Yeah. Yeah. You have to do the research tonight. - You have to do the research and you have to understand what works and what won't work. - When I think what is such a great thing to learn from you, because, you know, this podcast is about collaboration and the job of an A&R is so fucking collaborative. You're collaborating with an artist, you're collaborating with a producer, a writer, a marketing team, it is deep collaboration. But I think, so a lot of people come to this podcast to learn and I've learned so much from you. What I've learned from you today is that so far, because we still have more to talk about. - Yeah. - The re, like, you did all the research because you loved music so much that you were DJing. Like doing research is really hard. - It's very hard. You have to have a purpose to do it. - Yeah. - I know. - It was DJing. I always wanted to play a funk and soul classic record. I wanted to show these people that. I was cool that I knew disco and funk and soul and Otis Redding and as well as all the current stuff, which was, you know, blondie and talking heads of a master flash at the time. And so I wanted to play everything all the ones show that you knew all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you? This is a much more technical current question. But I think it's a really good one that Morgan wrote, which is I was going to read it because it's really good. What's the thing artists think, get them signed that actually doesn't? Jumping on your desk and performing in your face, I hate that. Right. Because especially if the record is an amazing and maybe they're not even the best performer, that's not why you were interested in them. You're interested in them because like they were like, yeah, yeah. And it's like, I never want, I want to sign artists that I'm pursuing more than them pursuing me. Yeah. It's almost like dating. Yeah. Right. Play hard to get. Yeah. Play hard. Exactly. Yeah. Let me show you why Republic's the right place. I'm the right A and R. Yeah. What my added value. Yeah. And as an A and R person, because really at the end of the day, your discography walks in the room with you. So as an A and R person, and therefore, if you're walking in with a very long discography, you can be cool about it. Yeah. I don't need you singing in my face. It's a pet peeve. No, that's a great answer. Yeah. That's a really good answer. You mentioned before how it's taking artists longer and longer to break, which we've seen whether it's chapel, whether it's Sabrina, Zara, the list goes on and on. And I'm just thinking of the pop girls, because that's what I pay attention to. But it's in every genre, right? What as an A and R as a chairwoman, whatever position you're in, when an artist is taking the long time to break, how do you decide when it's time to go maybe we're not the right label for you, or when it's time to go, hey, we need to pivot your sound, or when it's time to just like stay the course, whatever the answer is, how do you navigate that with these people who are looking to you to make their dreams come true? So I was taught very early in my A and R career by some of the most amazing record executives. Yeah. So it's one of your pearls of wisdom. I have not heard. I am listening. So if you're sitting on an artist, you got to wait and slide in exactly when something is faltering to really take that slot. So A, you always need records on reserve that are clever, that an event happens. I come from a hip-hop background, what was so great about hip-hop is that they would literally make a record and drop it the next day, whether it was a disc record or whether someone passed, like, it was very in the moment. Pop music also has to be in the moment. Thank you next Ariana Grande, perfect example. She's very clever. She called and said I want to drop it Friday, but it's not even mixed yet. And by the way, this was Thursday. So giving you eight days or giving you one day? Half a day. And I remember calling Serben, and the best mixer is a ball time. Best mixer of all time. I love him. And he would always know when I'd call him and I would go, hello, and he goes, what's wrong? I'm in the car with my parents. I just picked them up from the airport. They're in from Canada. I'm dropping them in my house. What do you need? And I remember saying, I have this Ariana song. We want to release it tomorrow, but I have to deliver it finished, mastered by 5 p.m. New York time tonight. And it's already 9 a.m. at a time, so it's noon. And he goes, got it, I go, it doesn't even have to sound good. You just have to mix it for a minute. And he goes, just for a minute and get it to Randy and Sterling, just a minute. And he goes, all right, let me drop my parents off in my house. Let me have lunch. I'll go right to the studio and we made the deadline. Wow. Something that was, she dropped that record like a rapper. Wow. And it exploded. Wow. That. And she got that slot at that moment in time. Right. Yeah. So everything leading up to that was preparedness. I mean, that's actually a really, really good point, right? She was massive before that, but that was the moment she became a superstar, the generational superstar. And she wrote that record in a very tough time in her life. Right. And the thing I love about her more than anything, even till this day, she puts it all out there. Yeah. Oh, it's, it's all out there. I mean, I was lucky enough to do one song on that album because you were nice enough to send me to New York to do it. And I'll never forget, she played me thank you next and I was blown away, but she also played me a magic. And I was just like, what the fuck is, I've, this girl's always been amazing, but something is happening on this one. And then I was with Priscilla wrote, who is now Money Long, Money Long wrote Imagine. I got to write a fake smile with Money Long and RE for that project. And it's also to see her instincts, right? Like she came in and we had like started a bit of fake smile. And she heard like, I don't know, eight bars. And I was like, yep, no, this is on the album right now. Let's finish it right now. We finished it in an hour and a half. She cut it, edited her own vocals, you know, she's like the engineers at the computer while she's in the booth. Yeah. You know, very politely asked him to move. So she can edit it herself. And everything she's recorded. Yeah. And it's quicker when she does it. Yeah. But she is one of the thing I love about her more than, I mean, there's so much I love about her. Of course. But since the age of 16, when we signed her, they're crazy. She has been decisive. She does it, mall things over. She doesn't think about things. She really sticks to her own first instinct. You can't get in her head and mess up her flow. It's the best when an artist is like that. And they're not constantly second guessing or changing their minds. You can do amazing things. Would you say, if we, because obviously talent and having that gift and the X factor is of course, goes without saying every any any superstar is going to need that. Would you say that the second most important thing is that level of decisiveness? I think so knowing who you are and creating your own brand. Yep. Are you created her own brand? All these things that you wouldn't think would be cool at Coachella like a ponytail, so I go out and there's 100,000 people in ponytail, God bless. She stalked to who she was. What would you think is the most common thing you've seen artists do that, that hurts their career? Too much. Monically, too many musical styles. The one thing with Ari is that when you hear an Ariana record, you know it's Ariana. It's R&B Tinge, that's how she sings. It has a little hip hop in it and might have a little e-dem in it, but it's funny, it's quirky. The vocals are like, you know, it's to get any artist that you're an Ariana. The goal had always been, and I learned this very early on when the Michael Jackson's of the world were signed and active. My boss said to me, the most important thing is that they are on a one first name basis with the fans. If you could achieve that, and when you think about that, it's Madonna, it's Gaga. It's Beyonce. It's Rihanna. It's Ariana. It's Ariana. Yeah. Right? Even just Ari. They shorten even the name. Ari. But that is an achievement that you can only get by doubling down on your craft and making it better and better. If you go and go wherever the trend is, you're not an album-selling artist, you're going to be single to single, and you see the difference. That's so perfectly said. When it comes to writers and producers, what to just really boil it down? When you're collaborating with a writer and/or producer, because sometimes they do both. What is the thing that you would say you 100% need every writer and/or producer to a quality they have to have for you to have a long-term relationship with them? They have to be cool. I have to say it, and we have to be able to hang because I know now, in my career, I've made so many records that I know how to give notes, and I know how to inspire. I'll send a producer, like, "Here, listen to this record from 1984," I'll give very specific notes that are helpful, not notes to just give notes, and I will walk in with a very specific sonic palette for an artist. If you picture a mood board, something old, something new, so therefore they're in it at the ground level, and they're in it with me and the artist, and that is really important to build a foundation. I have never been a big fan of using too many producers on an album, to be two to three max, preferably two, so it's a cohesive sound. And it's deep, deep cuts, fan favorites, those need to speak and say something. They're not album fillers. What is so smart about that point of view is that I know as a writer, when I know that the artist, that the ANR has the artist writing with the entire town for the album. When I go in, if I get three days with them, I am only trying to write the first single. Yeah. I'm not given the luxury to go and get weird with them for a day, because I don't view album cuts as filler. I want to take them seriously, but if I only have three days with you and I'm competing with the entire town, so then on those albums, you can hear it. It just sounds like every song was trying to be the first single, and it's not a proper body of work that anybody cares about. And they don't know how to fix the sonics to make them along with each other. Yep. So one of my, you know, things that I'm always pretty determined and make sure happens, I like to have an executive producer on the album, who is a real producer, that I can work with, where outside songs might come in, but they make it sound like the artist, like a body of work that we're trying to put out to the world. Consistency is key in all of this. And that is why, you know, when I was coming up, you listened to albums, and you listened to them in the sequence that the artist intended you to listen to. I was very young when songs in the key of life came out, and I had a record player in my room, and I loved that album so much that it took me six weeks to even turn it over to side B. I couldn't, I just always want to listen to the songs I want to listen to, and then I discovered, oh my God, side B is even possibly even better. So I come from loving and adoring albums, reading the credits, knowing people that are involved, like a real fan, a real, you know, I was an A&R person before I even knew what it was. I knew what label it was on, what year came out, who produced it, who managed the art like I knew the B side, that was just me, I was curious. And I think what's, that's what's, is you're so great for so many reasons. But one of the most important reasons is that artists, writers, and producers, 9.5 times out of 10, we are doing this because we love it so deeply, and we can tell when an executive is giving us notes based on something that doesn't come from the love of music. Of course, because it's not coming from the true essence of the soul. And it just feels fucking weird. And it's like every time you've given me a note, every time I'm like, oh yeah, that's probably going to work because it's coming from a deep love and a deep research. It's not just for giving the sake of giving a note. Exactly. And for me, it's always instrumentation on the very big on BPMs. You're very big on, on, on structure, which I love because I'm a big structure geek. And we always. And we're almost so good at a loose structure if that's what's required intentional for that song. Yeah. I agree. If it's, if you're in making an album, they all shouldn't be perfect. Right. Like it's boring. No. Yeah. What's the thing a writer or producer, so the most, and you said the most important thing is to be able to hang and collaborate in a fun, loving way. What is the thing that a writer or producer is going to do that immediately? You're like, I'm never calling them again. There's many things there is an over-aggressive manager big turn off because again, yes, there's money involved, but you should be doing this because you want to be aligned with something that even if it doesn't happen this year, next year, the year after, you're in there. That's a big turn off, doing too much, big turn off. Like the creatively doing too much or, or too many sessions with other people, not allowing enough time, which is a signal to me that you're not that into it, because if you're really into something and you are a producer and you love music, you will drop everything to literally stand next to this artist. And if you're not going to do that, I don't really, I'll figure out the hit. I want to surround my artists with people who love them as much as I love them, as much as the label loves them. That is beyond important to me, because it's like, yeah, you could go after and get the biggest person, but if they're not going to devote their time, what's the point? You're going to get it like a B record. Yeah. You're not going to get the A-Shit. Well, especially because you are an owner who wants a small team on the album. Yes. So if someone isn't giving it a proper amount of time, yes, then you need to be up. It's not fair to the other people either. How do you balance giving an artist and their collaborators, writers, producers, giving them time to breathe versus delivering on like logistical needs? Every case is different and you have to be able to read the artist and be close enough to the artist to really see what's coming ahead of it and adjust accordingly, right? And also be transparent. If the label has a record in for a certain month and you know six months earlier, you're not going to make that date, tell them, don't lie. I mean, the artist shouldn't lie. Well, no, tell or tell the people running the label, right? Yeah. Because there's business plans and forecasts and things that they're going to have to find those units somewhere to replace it. We never force the art to make a deadline. Right. That's rule number one. Love that. And so then when if, if, so if the art isn't making the deadline, you're not going to force it. Then on, on your end, how do you, how do you handle that, especially now as chairperson? You just have to be honest. Yeah. You're not ready. Right. This isn't ready. And it has to be great. Yeah. We're not going to force it, we're not going to force it, we're not going to force it. We're not going to force it. to happen, and established artists who's in a core genre, let's say, it's R&B or hip-hop. If they don't have a record that crosses out of that every 36 months, they're not going to get a new audience. And what does a new audience bring? Look curious, kids are curious, a new audience brings them back to listen to the entire catalog discovery, is the most important element in that. So artists that don't stay on that path, they become a dying franchise. So yeah, the catalog still might strain, they might be a big celebrity, but by not having a driver, it shortens the lifespan of what it could possibly be. And that's why current music is so important. It's to introduce a new audience to everything this artist has done. Yeah. When you've had to have those hard conversations with artists or writers or even employees, and someone has sort of lost sight of the main goal, how do you approach those hard conversations? Because this is something I'm learning. And something you told me when I started publishing company and label, and I'm learning that the publishing side, I really understand it because I was songwriter, and the label side, I'm still fucking learning this hard label, it's a totally different skill set. And you said to me, when I started all of this, of like, you're such a leader, this can be amazing, but just can I give you one piece of advice, and I said, please, and you said just know when you start business, when you're just a songwriter, you can be everyone's best friend. Yeah. The second you start businesses, you have to have hard conversations, and people might not like you. And you're very well liked right now. And at starting a business, you are going to have some enemies, be prepared and you were very right. So when you go into those hard conversations and someone's going to view you as the bad guy for the day, how do you? I still try to do it as nice as I can. But you do do it very nicely. Yeah. It's just matter of fact. Yeah. It's like, you know, I'm lucky enough now to be in a position where when I walk in a room, my discography walks in with me. And sometimes you do have to make it about yourself. Yeah, you do. It's you're, I mean, I'm learning that, you know, on the label side especially, you know, like we, we are both together working with the amazing B-Miller right now, and because that labeled part I'm still learning is hard for me, I just mean B made like a really cool new school arrangement that we're just like a kind of like a creative team. We've locked arms and I am here to call people. I'm here to write our songs. I'm here to do everything. But I am never going to like have some weird comp, we're making, we locked arms as creative partners. And I learned that for me is the way that I can handle it. Well, as an A and R person, the truth is, the thing you have to protect most is your creativity and your reputation as a creative person. So certain conversations might not be appropriate for you to have and still continue to A and R, an artist on the highest level. So a republic we work as a team, it's not that I'm scared of having it. It's just, I need the artist to look at me as the chief creative officer, I need to stay creative. Exactly. And that's the big, and I love hearing you say that because it makes me feel less crazy because I learned early on when I started my label, I was, I was asked to have a really hard conversation with an artist. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'm so good with people, I'll do it. Well, me and that artist never wrote another good song together ever again because all the sudden I was like the big, bad executive and we're supposed to be writing together as an A and R. You have to understand your value and protect your value as an A and R person as a creative, as a songwriter, as a producer. It's very difficult to be business person and creative at the same time. And if you notice, and you look at labels throughout the ages, for every creative who ran a company, there was a suit. And it was the suit that had the tough conversations because the creative needs to be creative. And that's where growing up in the business, at the height of the business, and when it was thriving and not indees and not internet and not streaming and all that other stuff, you saw that. That was so transparent. And unfortunately, younger A and R's, they don't get to see how it was done, to even imbibed that. What's the thing you miss the most about the industry before social media came and flipped everything on its head? Well what social media did was make the consumer expect that the messaging of a new release, a new video, a new tour come directly from the artist. So if you think back to the 70s, David Bowie was a mystery. And he had been ahead today, if he had to do that. If he had to talk to his phone every day. So I think that the times has so much to do with the type of artists that break, prints who became a symbol. Like I walked around all of my high school thinking I was David Bowie. Right, addressing like David Bowie. That's how important he was in my life. So I do think that but he didn't do a lot of interviews and you really didn't even know what his voice sounded like. And I liked it better that way. Yeah. What's the positive from the new world of the music business? I think a positive is the fact that you can reach so many people so quickly. You can get your message out. And if it's really resonating, you will see it explode. And I think that, you know, that's the good and the bad news of gatekeepers. Mm-hmm. Yeah. To wrap up every episode, we play a little game. Okay. It's called gag or drag. Okay, gag is if you love it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love this. Drag is if you hate it. Okay. People talking through the opening song at a concert. Drag. Drag. Shut up. Shut the fuck up. Why are you here? Gag or drag people leaving a concert before the encore? Gag. Only because, you know, I've done that, you want to get in your car. You don't want to get stuck in the traffic. I'm an adult. I need to wake up the next day. Yeah. I'll give them a break. Yeah. Yeah, fair. I love that. I love that. That's a very, very real honest answer. Yeah. Gag or drag people comparing New York to L.A. Oh, drag. Yeah. Coming from New York, born and raised, there was like, why does a city have to be better than the other? Yeah. Thank you. It's, when I moved here, the amount of, because it was before the mass exodus from New York to L.A., the amount of friends of mine who were like, oh, so you've, you're a cell up. Yeah. And I was like, actually, yeah, I'm trying to paint my rent through music. Now, I'm going to write songs for other people. Yeah. I'm actually a hundred percent of fucking cell up. I moved out here in 2001 for a job to be out of A&R capital. And I couldn't have been happier. I was like, yeah, why not? I don't have kids. Yeah. My husband's English. He already made one big move. He's like, oh, who cares if everyone's shallow and superficial. I could get a convertible. Gagger drag the phrase, work, life, balance drag me to I hate it. First of all, who's to say what's, who came up with the formula? Right. And it's not one size fits all. Right. I'm up make my my eat this I breathe this, this got me through illness. Yeah. Well actually, let's fucking stop this game for a second. So I was, I had maybe had like two-ish hits. One of them was because of you, kick by the ocean and you invited me where you were getting an award. That's right. From a hospital, right? Yeah. St. John's. St. John's. In Santa Monica. Because you had the same year that you survived cancer. You had the biggest year of your career. I didn't. And I don't want to get emotional, but I love you so much. And it was, I was so new to success. And you invited me to sit at your table while you got this award. And I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? This woman just like. literally saved her life while also blowing up the weekend and Ariana the same fucking year. And DNC right why I was there. They performed. Yeah. How I don't even know what question to ask you about it. How did working so fucking hard that year help you get through that battle? It's a very interesting question. Cancer is a funny disease. A lot of it has to do with your mental state. And also the doctor you choose or can get to go to. And when I got diagnosed I have a lot of great friends in the city of Los Angeles. So I was able to get in with Dr. Lawrence Piro who is one of the best most innovative brilliant oncologists in LA. And when he met with me the first thing he said is you're gonna work right through this. And you're gonna have your most successful year ever. And I looked at him like he was effing crazy. You don't even know him. And Peter sitting next to me like he's like all bought in. But the truth is he was right because when I was going through treatment was when Ari was in with Sovyn Ilya Max and a bunch of the Swedes on her second album. And I told very few people that I was going through treatment. But obviously Ari had a lot of cancer in her family. And so I told her and her mom and Sovyn and Max and Ilya. And I would just go to the studio every day for a couple hours and just lay on the sofa and just be there. Be in that environment. Help me so much. Yeah. I think it would have been so much worse laying in bed feeling sick than laying on the sofa gone way feeling sick. But it was true because I put everything mattered so deeply. Cancer is an amazing thing to go through. It's hard. But you grow from it so much. It makes you a better person. For the first time ever I put myself first. I cut out things in my life that didn't serve me. And I leaned into things that gave me joy. Making records gave me joy. And I only focused on that. And the records that were made in 2014 were extraordinary. And I will forever be grateful to that experience. Because it led me see and hear and experience things at a totally deeper level. Yeah. Yeah. Next question. If you could give one piece of advice to someone about the how to collaborate well with an ANR specifically. Artist, writer, producer, you've given a lot of amazing advice. But if there was one last thing that anyone watching this is like how do I communicate better or work better with an ANR, what would that piece of advice? I think the first thing is communication, having a relationship that goes beyond just making that record. It's a business built on relationships. When I worked at Kevin records, Eddie Rosemblatt and David Geffen would say to me, your only value is who you can get on this. And they'd pull out his cell phone. A new fancy fan dangle device. Yeah. Well, it was huge back then in 1995. Whatever. But the truth is my greatest gift is that I know everyone. And for the most part of had really pleasant and good experiences with them. And I feel that as an ANR, you, that's your job. Yeah. Who you can get on the phone, who you can get to, who will do you a favor, who will drop their parents off and go into the studio to mix a record for you when they were taking the day off. That is your value. Yeah. So when you work for a label, you have to add value. Yeah. And that is you cannot replace that. Yeah. You just can't call for me means something to a certain person. Yeah. And I feel that. Oh, I always know the difference when a session request comes through someone in your at an office versus when you call me at the front. Yeah. And I'll just pick up the phone and be like, Hey, whatever it is, just say yes. If you called me the answers, yes, they're just book it. Yeah. So I think that that is what I was taught to aspire to. Because it's not about me. I serve a function. Yeah. And I do it at the top of my game. Yeah. But I have no illusions. I am not the star, which I love. Yeah. Because I can go to Irwan and Beverly Hills and be anonymous. Yeah. But it is that it's being kind to people. Yeah. Because it's a very small industry. Yeah. And being transparent, if the song's not going to make it, I tell someone like you have to be honest on it. The thing that gets a lot of younger A and R's and executives in trouble or get them a bad reputation is by not being transparent. Yeah. And when you're old, you're blunt. Right. I mean, there's that, you know, I wish I was like this when I was 20, but I wasn't. Yeah. But the truth is I learned the hard way made a lot of mistakes. Yeah. You know, and you know, whenever I would make a record and it didn't work, I would do a Monday morning quarterback and I would have evaluated it. Explain what that means. Because I actually meant to ask you, what do you do when you have failures and you just answered it without me asking? Yes. So a lot of it is, I thought it was a head, but it didn't work. And it could not work for a structural reason, or the artist just isn't hot and no one cares. Yeah. Or maybe the song isn't as great as I thought it was. Maybe the message in the song isn't as powerful as I initially thought, or maybe the artist isn't connecting for a myriad of reasons. Yeah. And to really just put it to bed, to learn from your mistakes is as important to know what not to do. Yep. And not repeat that again, is so valuable. So valuable. Because it's a job that they are paying you for your taste and your expertise. Yeah. Two of the most intangible things on the planet, the most subjective things on the planet, like who's to say, I have good taste in your shitty tell. Like, like, it's an opinion. Yeah. So you're making a career off of an opinion. Yeah. Love it. Everybody, Wendy Goldstein. Watch Unthings on Spotify. Subscribe for no else. I'll see you then.