Wemby Goes Wilt. Plus, the Blazers Are Rollin’, the Post Is Dead(?), and More. | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Variere, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle Man, back in the saddle after a pod off, you know, I took a lot from our live show in Minnesota, new friends, new experiences, and also conjunctivitis. Thank you to the good people of the Midwest. Well, it's very generous of them, but I have to say Justin, you also just seem more distinguished today. I feel like I feel the urge to take your takes more seriously. I never feel that urge, but I was going to say Justin, you're the suspiciousness of the timing of your ailment. Usually, you know, whenever we've been with each other, which is usually involves like work travel or whatever it is, I look over and you're on your phone, you're on some apps. We'll just leave it at that. I'm just saying there's a little bit of suspicious activity between you have some kind of skin thing going on in conjunction with, you know, you like to get on apps whenever you travel. It's just suspicious. That's what I'm saying. I don't want to be interested in it with this, but could you elaborate? I mean, I don't know. You think I picked something up in Minnesota, just cruising the apps? The conjunctivitis specifically. It does raise some red flags. The portlet pickle got on a plane, and that's what we call him now. Well, I do think there might be a connection, but probably not the one you guys are talking about, because I don't know if you're aware of this, but there are two types of conjunctivitis. One is more virus-based, one you just pick up in normal daily life. The other one is allergic, and I have to say I was touching my eyes after we did the hot-wing thing before the show, and there's a non-zero possibility they are connected. Yeah. Would we like to talk about the NBA and some capacity? Well, yes, we'll get there eventually, but I have to say it was tough to see over the weekend. I was still trying to keep track of some of these games. I started to keep like a sick diary of things that I would say had I been on the pod, just like normal anecdotes that I would find a way to just weave in there. The first one I have down here was that whenever come on Molo Watch scores, which is very rare, so they have time to really put this together, they should play the "come on, come on, come on" song, you know, that they did the LeBron, LeBron version. I think they need that as a drop. That's one thing. The second thing is, because I couldn't see as well far away as I could right in front of me, so I was deep into my phone. Actually, as a result of this past few days, I bought one of those brick things where you just like you put it somewhere and it closes off your apps. I need a real detox. But while I was doing that, I was like so deep in the weeds of my algorithm that I was getting fed things that kind of scared me. I got to the nexus of the universe and at one point I got a guy taking DMT from Toad Poison. Oh, I've been down those roads. You never watch those vise shows where the dude licks the toad and then just like lays on a riverbank. That's great stuff, Rob, are you judging that? I don't know. I just maybe I'm depriving myself by not getting that deep into Toad high, but it doesn't seem like my area. You never licked a toad? I've never seen those shows, but this one even seemed like it was just someone doing it for social. I don't think it was like a fully produced thing. It was actually a guy being like, this is, I will show you the way. This is how to take you to the next higher plane of existence. Well, should we do this for social? Should we get some Toads? Obviously one toad a piece. We're not trying to get conjunctivitis again. We each lick a toad and then we watch like King's Clippers together and we just see what happens. Oh my God. That is an incredible idea. Just throwing it out. Really a really bad game. I don't know. I worry about the long-term psychological effects of that if we watch King's Clippers. Yeah. That would be a good social breakout to go along with our hot wings challenge. I was saying to myself though, because I wasn't talking anybody for upwards of six days. I should explain a lot of this podcast, but like as the guy was like flipping out and like just going crazy and whatnot, I was like, oh, this the theatrics of this guy are actually less than what I see in a typical Luca Doncic performance. There it is. Let's go, baby. Holy moly. We're back. We're back. We're all the way around the bin. That was a norm joke. All right. We don't have to talk about that though. Just quickly before we get to the break, Indie Live Show, Rob, have you bought your tickets for December 10th at the Indie High Five? Well, I don't want to take anyone else's seat. That's the problem. I already have mine accounted for, but everyone else needs to buy their tickets at thebringer.com/events. Come join us for the Indie Live Show December 10th. Thank you. December 10th, which is of course the day that we all know we will be in Indie Napolis. And honestly, I can't wait. Okay. All right. On that note, why don't we take a break? And we come back. We'll talk about actual basketball. The Bringer NBA show is presented by Fandool. It's the NBA season and Fandool is calling it your most rewarding season ever. I mean more rewarding than watching a center pull up from three and actually knock it down. That's good stuff. With Fandool Rewards clubs offers surprises and more, there's plenty to look forward to all season long. Download the Fandool app to get started. 21 plus and select states, 18 plus and DC are Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler, call 1-888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. All right. So Victor Webb and Yama is Wilt Chamberlain now. So last night, he put up 52 points, 24 rebounds, and eight blocks. We're getting to the point where it's like, man, this is kind of like Wilt, or this stat line is reminiscent of what Wilt used to do. Dylan Harper said it outright. Last night, Rob, he's basically Wilt out there. Yeah. The one possession that brought it home for me was like towards the tail end of the first quarter, there was what was supposed to be a spurs, fast break, the Mav sprinched all the way back. They took it away. Fast break shut down. Wembee is at the three-point line, keeping the ball away from Walter Clayton, Jr. Who kind of gambled, but even then it wasn't that bad. And Wembee turned from the three-point line in one dribble dunk through three guys. And I was like, this really must have been what that felt, like, watching the light on a regular basis. I thought you were going to talk about when Clayton dribbled into the paint, he turned around, and Wembee literally razzed him as if he were an emoji. I mean, as he should. I think we all know of the ways that Wembee naturally bends the logic of a game, but seeing it this aggressively, this consistently, and just in such a determined way, where it feels like he could flip the switch pretty much anytime he would like to, it's terrifying, to watch. It's awesome to watch. This was the most dominant performance we've seen from any player so far, and I say that with all due respect to Justin's favorite player, Luke Adonchich. Well, what's crazy is, like, after the fact, I started to see highlights where they put, like, kind of the grain on it, almost to suggest as if it was, like, an old school performance, which was a nice little bit of added on top of this, but so career highs and points, career highs and rebounds. So his previous career, high Kyle, was 50 points against the Wizards that happened November 13th to 2024. What is interesting in that performance, he hit eight of 16 three pointers, only six free throws. In this game, he hit one of his eight threes and went to the line 23 times. So this was largely entirely at the basket. Yeah, I mean, you're probably going to hear Mav's fans complaining maybe a little bit about how hard it is to guard him or just not foul him, but to be honest with you, man, there are a lot. I mean, I was watching pretty intently just to kind of litigate those fouls and there were probably more fouls that didn't get called. I mean, there was one particular play where he turned around and PJ Washington kind of hooked his foot slightly as he was running the other way. There was just a lot of dark arts going on in that game. You mentioned though that just his impact, Rob and I were talking last week about, as you were mending, JVB, the Luka MVP conversation, and it's interesting how I think those are two separate things right now, like winning that award and who's the best player in the world. It's like, you know, Lucas production, obviously he's going to put him in that in that situation to get to get qualified for that award, but Wimby last night looked like the best player on earth. His two way impact was incredible. He was just I even posted the two clips that you were talking about. I mean Clayton got him later after that, that nope. A total just grandpa, Simpson, like at the at the Burlesque House, you know, or just in the door out the door. But it was just crazy. And you know, the thing that I was texting some people about last night was Wimby's balance is one of the most incredible things that I've ever seen from a basketball player. I mean, he drove a couple, you talked about him just roasting people from the three point line and getting past people, which is amazing in and of itself, like Gafford played up on him at one time and Wimby just like crossed him over and dusted him. But he had one play where he caught it, took a big step, took a bump, kept his balance and finished his feet are just astounding, man. Like I just think his balance is one of the one of the wilder things I've ever seen from a player. Well, especially when you compare him to the other like incredibly tall, lanky guys we've seen in the NBA over the last 10 years or so, like your bowl, bowl types, just night and day in terms of body coordination. Like it's not just a skill level thing, it's not just the way they process the game. It's just like can you keep your feet under you on a consistent basis and when he's going to take some shots and take some falls now and again, but the fact that he can land on some of these alley ups where he's getting like straight undercut and bumped at every step of the way, honestly incredible. Yeah. I mean, we talked about it earlier this season when he struggled out of the gate particularly with his jump shot and the jump shot hasn't come around and he's kind of talked to that, but he was very quick as he often is because he's just so self-reflective and constantly like over-analysing his own performance and like what he could do better that he made a concerted effort to be more of a factor at the basket and it's so crazy that when he just focuses on the simple things, how good it could literally, you could literally just have 52 points and 24 rebounds in the game just because he's just so massive and is so good at finding a spot and finding little duckings and whatnot in order to be effective. What's funny though is he brought this up earlier in the season in typical Wembee fashion. This is in French, this is a translation where he said Bruce Lee fears the man who has repeated one kick a thousand times and not a thousand different kicks once. And on one hand, I'm like, why are you constantly talking like a long-form rider and only two thousands? But on the other hand, like he does have a point like he saw that he could be effective at the basket. Check out some of the clutter from his game and look how the results that he's had is result. I mean, I think we have to respect that part of him, the part of him that is obsessed with Bruce Lee. I mean, when the embracing that kind of mentality, the arts of fighting without fighting, like all the ways in which you can make your life easier as a player like him, I'm just fascinated to watch. I think if you have all of the advantages he does, he is, as you're kind of laying out just in like the most fascinating test case. I think the NBA is basically ever had certainly the modern NBA for just night to night. How do you orient your game? Like what is important to you? What do you want to prioritize so much is available to him. If he only gets out of his own way, or if he only kind of streamlines and attacks the basic mismatches in front of him. And so it's like he, I think the fact that that is his challenge and he is the kind of overfinker, we already know him to be in good ways and bad is just like it sets him up for such an interesting career. And it could be an all time great career. It could be one where he's always like, you know, gets to some of these stages and feels like a little bit frustrating in terms of shot selection, well to see where he nets out. But everything is there for him. And this kind of game is so hard to take away without just completely compromising everything your team is doing on defense otherwise. It's just interesting to watch him to the way that he affects a Kyrie is a guy who is very settled into his grooves and methodology that has been proven over the years to work just to watch him get to his jumper and things like that. And Wimby was affecting the speed at which Kyrie was taking shots that you've seen him take thousands of times. That is that is a kick that Bruce Lee has seen that we've seen you know Wimby honestly isn't even a great comparison for Bruce Lee, it's just like if Bruce Lee were built like Kareem, you know, maybe that would be a good like one to one there, but that was fascinating to watch. And then just to watch him, you know, in the paint, I mean, you know, not that Walter Clayton Jr. is like first team. I do think Clayton is pretty good showed some that showed some good stuff in the map. I do have some thoughts about the man I want to get to, but just watching him like navigate around guards in the paint and the fact that he's that dominant defensively, even when the spurs, I still don't think they're offensive hierarchy is felt is what it figured out you just watch them play. It's like they're still it's still not a cohesive flowing thing. They're kind of calling the numbers for the individual guys and piecing it together and it's working. But I just think it's a testament to how dominant Wimby is that they still haven't figured all that stuff out and they still can win games. I do think they're getting better with that stuff, like obviously the three guard looks were super clunky at the start of the season. And it's not perfect. You're right. You can still feel it now and again, but I don't think a game like this one would have been possible for the spurs in week one, like it was still too awkward. It was still too stilted. And yes, they're finding their way, but like I feel like they are doing a couple things that are really important. One, you could feel how fast they were getting out on the break just by virtue of having the three ball handlers on the floor a lot together and how easy it was for them to release into people who could really push the pace. They also never turn the ball over. And so if you're looking for how are they maximizing possessions? How is Wimby getting the free throw line so often a lot of it's just because they actually get to use these possessions to their fullest effect. And then they're finding him in better spots by virtue of having some of that stuff. I don't think there is that clear pecking order as far as who is supposed to make what decision when, but the fluidity of the spurs are playing with. I do think feels a little better. It is crazy how much they still have to figure out. And if you watch Dylan Harper's post-game interview with the inside guys, you could tell like that everyone's kind of like it's like an unspoken thing that this isn't quite right yet. And unfortunately for this spurs, Harper is just like just by growing up with an NBA parent isn't really media trained like you could tell when he's lying like immediately. And the fact that he even said it during the offseason how much it wasn't like the best thing in the world for him not to be starting like you can kind of see where that seems are with his team, but it is funny how Wembee is able to paper all over that without really didn't seem like there was like a concert effort to just like spam him in a way like it seemed like he was still getting things in the flow of the game and start going back to the point you guys are making about Luca. I don't know if you've seen the clip floating around from Mike Dantonie talking about James Hardin. He was talking specifically about when Hardin was just ripping off like 50 60 point games like on the regular I think during his MVP season and he was like well at a certain point he'd solve the game. And I started to worry what that would mean for us as a team like how would we figure things out when he couldn't just be everything there. And I think about that with Luca sometimes you're already seeing that when he's off the court how much of a difference it makes. I don't have that problem with Wembee just felt like whatever he was getting was not something that they had to really force feed in it just felt like the easy right play. I think the parallel for Wembee in that regard is more on defense where like the the stark drop off the complete shift in identity like who you are as a perimeter defender with that guy behind you as opposed to Luke coordinate behind you. I mean it completely shifts your perspective on every part of doing your job. And so I think that's where we see kind of the biggest like departure as far as what it feels like to play with this guy. I mean you could even see it in this game like if you're watching basketball and Daniel Gafford is settling in for free throw line jumpers like something is broken here in a way that is maybe hard for some people to describe but impossible to miss. And so if you're one of the other defenders on the floor, I do think Wembee is breaking a lot. And like it's certainly you know David Schumacher wrote on the ringer dot com today all about the ways that Wembee is breaking the game. I don't know that you can watch him dunk and draw fouls and score this much this quickly and not think that he's breaking something. And so that is your challenge as a team when you don't have this level of just pure output from Victor Webinyam when he's only putting up 28 instead of you know 52 54. Where does that leave you? What do you want to go to? What are the rhythms of your offense that feel comfortable and beyond comfortable just kind of like settled into in a muscle memory kind of way. Yeah, and we keep hoping for him to settle into the mode of primary offense where it's like everything's going through him, but I kind of postulated this in the finals a little bit where I wondered if the apex kind of offensive outcome of Dylan Harper was probably was the like highest form of optimized spurs offense. Like if we could get there and like how do we get there? We have all these other guys in in tow like along for the ride that you want to get a lot out of because Castle like we know is really dynamic and physical getting down hill with the ball. He keeps getting dared to take open jump shots and you get the proven dynamism of deer and Fox getting into the paint and had a you know just he's a creative player who's skilled. It's just him not overstepping in a harmful way. I still do kind of wonder about the second unit stuff because the maps went on a run like all the times that the mass went on runs were when we went off to Florida. It was like Cornette as much as we love him. I kind of wonder if they still I don't know if they need to get another like true five how to answer those questions because the maps don't really have big as they are they don't have like a behemoth like a Klingon or a or a or a Mara or whoever it is that we can get to. I just I wonder about that if as they move on just like figuring out the offensive side and then figuring out the second unit that I still don't totally know if those things are answered. It Cornette looks bigger like almost out of shape in a step slower. I wonder if like he's dealing with something injury wise but you're right. It's like noticeable more so than it would be for any other normal human taking the place of Wembee. He's last on the team and just raw plus minus over the course of the season minus 49 and you can see on the court like this seems like something is off there which is a pretty huge disadvantage for them because they're going to have to plug those minutes and also just like as much as the three guard lineup has the potential should they figure it out it seems messy enough that I don't know if they'll ever figure it out in a way that serves all three of those guards in this game Fox had some pretty ugly moments. So it's wild to say like because the spurs are cruising when he looks amazing but there's just like so much here that I feel like they still need like a month or two to sort out. Well I think anyone involved would tell you that the three guard situation is a means to an end right. It's what is fine for the team now to try to keep your primary stakeholders involved to try to get the minutes distribution just right to put your best players on the floor together but I would be shocked if anyone with the spurs or around the spurs would would bet on anything resembling this in two seasons, or even one season. Like this feels like a temporary measure. It does though give those guys cover. Like Fox can have a bad game or have a bad moment. Like I have bad moments like this one and they still pull out a really tight game against the maps because they have enough other things going for them. So I get the advantages, it is a little weird. It is a little relative to NBA, you know, modern NBA terms unconventional, but I think they can make it work. I think I share some of Kyle's skepticism though about the backup five stuff. And I kind of wonder if they may be better suited just having a completely different kind of backup center. Like just go absolutely small there, live with some of the rebounding trade off. Like if they had a more as Johnson type, not him, but like a very switchable five in that spot instead, I kind of wonder if that might energize some of those groups and really feed into what makes Keldin Johnson good at basketball, what makes Carter Bryant good and flexible. Like they might have something there that would be very different and therefore difficult for opponents to anticipate when they're game planning so hard for how to get around Wembee. - They have one. He's just, he's just hurt. I'm telling you it's Staden Quackens. I've said it though, I'm a broken record at this point that I wanted to add one of the thing to Dylan Harper's right to left finishing move is becoming one of the most devastating signature moves in the league. Are you all paying attention to the how ridiculous this is? - I mean, it's not. - He will take, I don't really know if anybody else in the league, it's just so simple. It's like, it's unblockable. Against the best defenders in the league, he just is constantly doing it. - Well, on the Dylan Harper front, I mean, he's shooting what like 80% at the rim or something to that effect at this point, like truly preposterous numbers and he's already the best guard finisher in basketball. I love though that it's not just all drives. Like he's such a good like flash to the middle cutter. He's such a good offensive rebounder. Like he just has so many ways of warming his way into the heart of a defense. And once he becomes a lead guard, like a true lead guard on top of all of those things, he's just going to be a devastating player for a long time. - Does anyone want to take any shots at Wembe's just so we could end up on awful announcing like Was did? - I am, you know, I am a little jealous, you know? But that's what it was. - Was has been on that corner for a long time. He tried to get out in front of me being a bust and I got to say it hasn't gone great. - Yeah, I remember I came on like right after the summer league game, right? When Was it 'cause he took a bunch of like 18 footers and missed them, the barefooted thing though, you had a problem with that Rob, right? You said so, you were making fun of, okay, well. - Wembe being barefoot? - No, you said, I thought there was something that was said. I just, I told Rob that I had spent most of my childhood barefooted, and he didn't seem surprised by that since I'm a dick, but yeah. - Look, I didn't say it in those terms. I'm just saying, you know, just, you're just running out in the grass. You're just living free. I'm jealous of your lifestyle, frankly. You are ahead of the like those guys that were like the toe socks. I've seen a lot of basketball players try to go in this direction. So, you were just, you know, figuring this out. - Embracing the natural ergonomics of the human body, you know? - Yeah, I was so, I was so rural when my wife and I got married that we were walking at a lake one time to go swimming, and I walk, I was walking barefooted on like micro gravel, and she was like, what the hell are you doing? And I was like, what? That's how like calloused in country my feet were. I've lost it, but shouts to Wimby, barefoot rules. If you can do it. - All I know is every time I tried to do that with my cousins who would live in like more rural areas of Texas, they'd be like, watch out for that stinging grass. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? This is not the life for me. 'Cause there were bugs in the grass? - No, it's like, you know, like a poison ivy, poison oak kind of relative or whatever, where it just like irritates the shit out of your skin. And I'm like, this is why we were shoes guys, you know? Like we really should do this. - We don't get that up here. - I lived in normal America, so I don't have any of these anecdotes to throw out there. One thing I won't say about Wimby is just the post game one. One thing I'll say about when we 20 minutes of it's going down. - We can't let that fast. - You from your ivory tower trying to claim you're from normal America? - His post game interviews, especially the ones on the court, he has to do with the national broadcast. I feel like he has zero time for. He hates them like with a very obvious passion. And I would just say if you're gonna be the face and the league, if you're gonna like be up front with like, taking on that challenge, it's okay. You could at least like humor the person who's trying to do their job. - Well, he only does 60 minutes now. Everything else is small potatoes. - That's true. - All right, so you wanna talk about the Mavericks on the flip side of this? - My takeaway from that game was, well, twofold. One, I liked the way the Cooper flag responded. Just a dog. He screws up the previous game against the Kings, apologizes to his team for it. Like, love that first and foremost. Then has a bad first half, clearly struggling against Wimby. But just like managed to dig offence out of the mud, like just tacking the boards, running hard in transition, beating guys down the floor, love that about flag. The other part of this is like how much the maps are different when Kyrie is out there, just a counterbalance there, and how much that's important if they're going to be a factor in the, well, I would say anywhere in the West. I assume they'll probably be a play and team at worst at this stage, but they could be pretty intriguing if they do keep them around. There's this interesting tradeoff happening with Kyrie now where it's like, there are pretty good team while he's on the court and you could see how much flag benefits from that. But ultimately, especially as you look up and down the roster, they're just like, they're resigned to taking these second draft polls for a lot of guys because they just don't have the raw resources in order to build a future for flag. And so is this weird tension playing out in real time, Rob? But last night, you saw the advantage of having Kyrie just to turn to. And I want to get to like the kind of tactical part of that, but we kind of maybe glossed by it too quickly earlier of just the basketball and their vana of watching someone like Kyrie trying to figure out Wimby in real time. And that's something that you just don't have elsewhere in the roster, right? Like, this is a really great Walter Clayton Jr. game. I think he's been really good both spelling Kyrie in spots, but also playing with him. Turned out to be a really nice player. Marcus Sassar's like probably the most uninspiring of their backup guard options is fine as like a failsafe. But I think the combination of Clayton and Sergio Delairea is like, that's fun and interesting and gives you just enough upside and enough pop to kind of give you a second life in a game like this when someone like Kyrie isn't able to do everything. The problem is they're mostly doing that playing alongside him at this stage. And so it's like, how do you, how do you replace or how do you spell one of the most creative players in the game? One of the, one of the guys who truly you cannot take away in terms of his ability to manufacture shots and opportunities for himself and other people. Like, it's a really hard thing to replicate. I don't know the Dallas is gonna be able to do it by adding anyone or by trading Kyrie at this point. It's just a matter of like, are you okay with this being more or less the state of play where you're gonna be pretty good? Is Kyrie gonna be okay with the team being pretty good? Competitive as you said, like I think they improved massively half over half in this game, not just Cooper but their defensive strategy against Wembee. I thought was much better kind of putting smaller guys on him and trying to live with some of that. Their physicality was so much better. I thought they were a little more competitive on the glass as well. Like they were finding ways to just be like a good, feisty team, but that might not always be good enough. And so I don't know where their season is gonna go, but for right now, I really like watching this group and I love watching what Kyrie brings to them. - Yeah, that was my broad takeaway as I was watching it where I was like, you know what, man, I kind of feel like Dallas is a little closer than they have gotten credit for. The way that we talked about him in the preseason, like they just have a lot of adults on defense. Like, Marez, I thought it looked great. - Really good. - At the last night moving around, honestly to the point where he might free them up to make some kind of a move for one of their guys 'cause they just have so many of those bigs. Just one more, one more like perimeter, I don't know if it's a movement shooter or if it's a switchable guy at that two, three, four spot that could just give them some line up flexibility. I know that like Reza Shea is like a hypothetical of that type of thing. I would think he's a pretty good defense to his credit. Like everything else is a little fuzzy and he guards wings better than like having to switch up or anything like that. But I think Reza Shea's done a good job. - Yeah, and I had the thought watching him last night where I was like, man, if Reza Shea hadn't been overpicked, at the time a lot of people had a problem with that pick and we're just like, what, why did they, why did they do that? It just would be interesting to see how we would think of him because everything that we think about him is just framed through. They're like, that's the number one pick. No, it would just, yeah. - Anyone who thinks that just go and take a look back at everyone who got picked in that first round, not just in the lottery and you will see that like, Reza Shea being a quality rotation player is actually on the high end of the outcomes of some of his peers there. - Yeah. - Yeah, totally. - Just let him be Tavo Saffaloche, you know, that's really where we're at. - Oh, that's right. - Well, can we talk about Morez quickly there? 'Cause I think he's an interesting character here, especially in contrast or in parallel to Yaxl just like taking off on a rocket ship. Obviously, the Mavericks had the opportunity to draft Yaxl over Morez and yet Dusty May in the maps, his former coach, Pick Morez. He's definitely more subtle and definitely you could see the long-term thinking where he might fit a little bit better, but I'm curious kind of what you think now that you've seen both of these guys. Was it as simple as that? Like Yaxl just requires so much oxygen that you don't wanna put him next to someone like Cooper because you're looking for, more supplementary players at that point, or are you kicking yourself if you're a Mavericks fan watching Yaxl go off for 30 practically every night at this point? I think either way it could be a path to success. I mean, I don't know that Yaxl needs oxygen necessarily. I mean, he's capable of just being a simple, that's the positive about Yaxl is that he is of a similar player species to Cooper, maybe not like superstar mold, but he can, he can kind of expand or contract to whatever space he's in. He can be like a spot-up player, he can be a connector, he can also attack his guy one-on-one. So I could see if you were a mass fan looking at like, okay man, it'd be nice to have some more switchability and some more shooting and some more passing out there and Yaxl would have done that. But Maraz is a decent ball mover, he doesn't overstep what he does, he's a good, he's a very switchable defender and he can play some small ball five. So I can understand where you would, where you would feel that way if you're a Dallas fan, but I, I don't think that they just like, whiffed and failed. I'm not getting that since. I don't know how you feel about that rub. And I think it's more clearly a lot of people, maybe even including Dusty May, underestimated what Yaxl could do as like a pure shot creator right out of the gate. Like he's just so much more advanced with the ball that I think certainly he got credit for in the draft profiling, but also that he ever really had a chance to show to this point. I think the physicality and the space of the NBA really suit him. He's doing a lot to, to generate looks out of like somewhat unconventional spots in a way that does remind you of Jimmy Butler at times, just like finding angles, like kind of weaseling his way through various levels of coverage. And then he's so big and so long he's able to extend in a Cooper flag kind of way and just like finish over the top of some of these guys. I'm, I'm, I'm very wait and see with Maraz because I think like you could see in a game like this one, why he is a defensive prospect worth really leaning into. He, he feels incredibly sophisticated and his ability to keep players in front of him in a way that I wouldn't be shocked if we look up five or six years from now. He's one of the best defensive bigs in the league that feels totally within bounds based on what we've seen from him so far from his Yaxl could be like a multi-time all star based on what we've seen so far. So is it a width of you draft the merely very good anchoring piece of your backline defense? I don't think so, but I think Yaxl is going to be the kind of prospect that if this continues in any rate is going to make front offices just completely tear their hair out with missing on him. Yeah, it's definitely not a width by any means, but it's just interesting to compare them to especially considering Yaxl's start, especially as a shot maker from deep. Yeah, there's that part of it. It's also the age curve and like how much you were worried about that considering Yaxl was 24. Although Maraz is like 20 is not like a spring chicken in that regard. Okay, they were 20 is a spring chicken. He was a young college sophomore too. Right, I mean, he's stronger than Cooper Flag, who's in his second year. Sure. I'd say that's pretty young or older in comparison. It's clear that like they had a vision for what the team wanted to be we could make the jokes about Messiah and Project 6.9 and like Schmitts did this also with the blazers, but like clearly they wanted all of these bigger, longer guys who can play their trade defensively and like Maraz fits that vision of the team. And also when you have Cooper playing the way he has this season, I maybe I think when I speak to oxygen, it's more like because Yaxl is such a big character and figure. I almost wonder if you want to be a little bit more precious about that so you don't really step on flag being the most important person there because clearly up until these past two games, he's just looked incredible. The shot making is like slower coming, but you can see it starting already to get bigger or better. And it's also interesting how we made jokes about him like growing over the off season. You can tell he looks like noticeably bigger and taller and shooting over the top of guys. And so it seems like only a matter of time. I thought we were already there last week to anoint him as a top 10 player, but it seems like even despite some of these humbling box like he seems ready to probably close to that level with not already there. Well, especially to get glimpses of that in a game like this one, which as you laid out Justin, had to really go around the bounds of the game to find ways to score because everything else is taken away. Like Victor Webinyama is a nightmare matchup for the vast majority of players in the league, but especially someone like Cooper who's so reliant on being able to attack head on and get to his floater or spin and get to an angle kind of like out extend around defenders who just can't keep up with him. And when he was there at every single turn, like he was just there to take away and deny and challenge shots. And to have the resources in your game to just dig up those points, I think it's just invaluable. And it's what separates someone like Cooper flag from the very score forward players who are super impressive in the way they get to theirs. But otherwise don't have the collect the comprehensive ability to impact possessions. I think it's what makes him potentially like a really great co star alongside other really great players. And I'm eager like I love singing with Kyrie, but I'm also eager to see who he is alongside, you know, another 20 something guy who's on a similar arc, similar curve able to bring a little something to his game and who they can be as they grow together. Cooper, number one, he is did you that I think you mentioned this play in transition where he just like sprinted and caught that lob over I forget over who he is fucking fast. That was really impressive. And but the other thing, I don't my buddy, Ben Taylor brought this up and he's like really, really bothered by this. And I think this is hilarious. But once he mentioned it, I can't stop noticing it. Have you ever noticed the way Cooper dribbles? In what sense he dribbles in a bizarre way. I mean, you could say he palms it literally every time he touches the ball, but as many stars do. Yeah, well, he has this way that he like like he just kind of swivels over in this palmy kind of a way that he, next time you watch a game, he has a bizarre way that he dribbles, but you mentioned the floater game. He's he's a unique player. I've talked a lot about that in terms of his just directions that he could go and be used like we don't totally know, but the fact that the overhanded floater game is like the primary way that he likes to score. We just don't see a lot of 6869 ball handlers play the way that he does. He's underrated bizarre, I think. That might be kind of like the swing skill in the spaced out era that we live in now is like everything for so long was focused about okay, create all this three point shooting. So then you can get to the rim. But now defenses are so good at taking away the rim, even as they sell out for shooting. And so there it's all this in between game. And for a minute there, it was about, you know, can you be a koalender type and just live in the mid range, kill, kill, kill in those matchups and kind of round out your scoring profile that way. But I think we're seeing with guys like Fleck as they operate in a purview purview that's a little more guard heavy. Usually like how do you get to those sorts of floaters? How do you get to your like nausea, martial kinds of shots to it? Like the maps are really good in that spot. And they may not be the best team from top to bottom, but it's part of what makes them feel so resourceful in a game like this resourceful is a great way to put it. It's just it seems like he's able to toggle to what ever you need him to be. And so if he's not scoring, if that's not working for him, he kind of just applies his trade somewhere else. Like he just busts his ass on the boards or he gives you more defense. So it's like what we can talk about Scotty Barnes. He like opens up the door for a lot of different things because of his versatility and is able to check somebody boxes like Cooper already has that, but on a higher level because he also has like the star making stars shit like go make a shot when a game sort of stuff. Yeah, it's interesting because I think that like positionally solid mature players on defense. I feel like we don't totally have a great way. Somebody analytic success is probably going to like hear this and message me and say you more on or tweet at me, but like we don't totally have a way to quantify positionally smart players versus defense guys who convert defensive positional stuff. You know, the guys who get the blocks and get the steals, they're not always the person who made the play happen. You know, like I just feel like a lot like Barnes is a good example of somebody who's just always so in the right place that he allows somebody to come and make a play on the ball. And I just feel like Cooper kind of has some of that going on, but it's interesting too that you were talking about like the pull up stuff of Kauai versus a floater. I don't know, I kind of wonder if we're in this revolution where those shots, those mid-range shots, they've proven it or like they're less likely to get offensive rebounded. It's like the lowest foul drawing per points per possession area of the floor. So it's like, I don't know if like floaters or an improvement in that way, but it's just an interesting kind of divergence from the norm that we're seeing from Cooper. Well, it does naturally just like by the flow of those possessions pull the shot blocker, right? And so as far as like the offensive rebounding tradeoffs you're talking about like you're dislodging the defense from where it wants to be and you're creating whether it's offensive rebounds, whether it's you go up for the floater, but then dish off to someone kind of ducking in for a layup or a dunk like it's just not closing the door to some of the side avenues that take, okay, this is a decent opportunity, but it could be a great opportunity. Any last notes from this one, the ABA court just fantastic. I loved it. I loved it. The spurs also got the theater lighting that like the staple center used to have are crypto. Now the nets have it as well. Just makes everything look more dramatic. So that plus the ABA stuff is just this is what we need in terms of jersey aesthetics. We don't need to be like coming up with 30 new jerseys. We actually need to be going back to the ones that were fantastic and just like digging them out of the trunks and just bringing them back out. Maybe just throw everything back. You know, we're talking about putting the film graying on everything, like, let's. D-H, this D4-KFI, everything, especially us, frankly, but anything that's on a broadcast, and maybe I'm saying this just because I came off of a concert experience like this, but maybe we just need to like yonder pouch every phone that goes into an NBA arena. Like you lose your phone. - Yonder pouch. - Yeah, are you familiar with these things? - I've never heard that either. - I've never heard the word. - So like these are like when you go into a concert or like a live event venue, and they lock your phone in this pouch that you keep with you, but you can't access your phone during the course of it. So it's like, you can't-- - Wait a minute. - You can't follow all those things. And there's areas where if you need to go make a phone call, you can go and lock it and make it. - But like let's just, let's go full analog with this thing. You know, like let's lock ourselves in an arena together. If you wanna be on your phone, stay home and be on your phone. Go to a sports bar and be on your phone. - Did you just give me shit for saying this exact same thing? Didn't look like a couple weeks ago, Justin, I say something about how I thought that we needed to like lower the inventory or the accessibility of video. And now you're saying like, whoa, let's get rid of this, like let's get rid of this ability for video to go viral so that people that weren't there can, like I was saying basically this exact same thing. I was like, we need to lower the accessibility of video. I was like, we need to make it a more unique experience in your account. - But then you didn't get the sponsorship from Yonderpouch. - Yeah, I'm nowhere to fund this segment. - Come on. - This spot gets it brought to you by Yonderpouch. You're gonna kick you in the Yonderpouch, yeah. - Is Yonderpouch the brand or is that the type of pouch? - Like is it a bandaid versus like. - You said that as if it was like Kleenex or Frisbee. Like that was. - I think, I think if you're out in the world, this is a fairly well understood phenomenon, but you know what I'm saying. - Look at Justin's eyes, he's two out in the world. So don't you accuse anybody of that. - He just talked about getting to the nexus of the internet and it was like, so fine. - We need to get Justin outside more, especially now. - I literally can't see that well. 'Cause you guys are like six inches from my face. So, yeah. - The Pacers, the Pacers' ABA jerseys also. - Yeah, great. - And we're all at the same time. Like it seems like it's a concerted effort. Like it's almost like a low key ABA night. Like that's cool too. - That is cool. - None of this like, oh, we have clowns all over our jerseys 'cause we go on the circus trip once a year. It's just like, just stick to the normal stuff guys. - Bart, I'm a Bayley. - We probably would be okay as a basketball loving community if we just took like a three year moratorium on any new jerseys whatsoever. Like let's park it for a minute. Pull out the throwbacks if you want to. If it's already in the vault, pull it out of the vault, but like, let's live with what we have. - Just because things are new doesn't make them good. I think I've accepted that in this stage of my life. There are some things that we figured out quickly. - Sneakers. - Why does everybody keep wearing dunks in Air Force 1s and blazers and stuff like that? It's 'cause we fucking figured it out early on and we stick with it. Okay, jerseys, we figured it out. We're overthinking it. Let's see. - Podcasts, I would say, figured it out. - Already. - That we've been doing for 10 years now. - Well, that's actually good one. - While you were gone, Justin, I was just telling Kyle exactly what Mike Dantonie said about James Harden, which was that we felt like you had just solved podcasting. And it was like, oh, what are we supposed to do here when you're here? This is just us being Ryan Anderson running to our spot. Without you though, we had to figure out how to do this thing whole cloth. - You're not Ryan Anderson though, you can't shoot. You're probably more, let's see. Rob's, I don't know if you're talking about this. - Unbelievable. Trying to give a negative scat on a dude who'd punk you like 11-4. - Ordrable, can't shoot ordrable. - I think the trip you say, yes, jump, jump. - Unblockable. - Why don't we take a break and let's do some mediation in the meantime. We'll come right back. - This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club, the last minute gift givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma club, whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours? Done. Shopping for the brands they want, like Aura Ring and Kitchen Aid without blowing your budget, check and check. Sam's Club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us, Sam's Club. - So, as we look at the NBA standings on November 5th, 2026, you will see that atop the Western Conference are your, not mine, but your Portland Trailblazers six and one. Did you ever imagine you would see the day probably? - Not this season, which makes it remarkable and amazing and also amazing your restraint, Justin, and refusing to just shoehorn them into every segment to this point. I know it's taken a lot out of you. I know it basically got you ill in the first place, but they deserve the remover in the sun. They deserve a whole segment of their own. - Well, I definitely was gonna do it on Monday had I been able to show up, so I'm glad to do it a couple days late. I'll say this, when John went down, I saw a lot of people ring in the hands wondering if this thing would keep up. I think in part because people were a little surprised by the start to begin with. And naturally, I think you're gonna describe it to one of the new elements. Their jaw had played really well played within the flow of things. I wasn't as concerned because I thought that jaw was a part of the success that they were having, but ultimately not the driving force. If anything, I thought the real takeaway from the first couple games was the symbiosis that is formed between Dame and Denny. Those guys have just found something immediately. I think Dame being on the bench all of last season really helps in that regard. Not only to the fact that he's not only a very smart and good player, but also the emotionally mature enough to know when to take advantage of like to call his own number and when to kind of take a back seat. There's just like something very good form there that just has a natural balance to it. And overall, this entire roster, I think, just has something there where there's so much flow and good ball movers and willing pastors offensively. And now without jaw, if anything, you're kicking up some more of the defense of potential that the team has to the point where we can talk about Scoohenderson and his role, I think we'll get there eventually. But you put Drew in that starting lineup in his spot. And all of a sudden, this looks like one of the more kick ass lineups in all basketball. They've only played 15 minutes together, but they're already like, I was looking up today, like 53 net rating, it's kind of absurd. This team Rob is starting to remind me of if they remain healthy and things keep clicking the way they are. Like the long ago blazers with West Matthews in Robin Lopez, where it's like there isn't one just like absolute dominant superstar or we're not gonna overwhelm you with talent, there's just something so good with all the pieces together here that I think could lead to a lot of regular season wins. - Which is a crazy place to find ourselves coming off of last season's blazers, where spirited, like good defense, hard playing, Diny Abdi obviously had an incredible year on his own. And like a lot of players we liked, but then you watch that team in action. And I would say last season's blazers, you could tell within the first five seconds whether they were gonna score on a given possession or whether it was gonna go completely off the rails. Like they had no capacity to play full extended possessions because the flow would be messed up, the spacing would be messed up, they'd get jammed up, they were turning the ball over, left and right. And the fact that they now actually do have those resources. And it feels like they're playing later and later into the clock in good ways where possessions aren't just going totally off the rails midway. I think a lot of it's just like having the ball handling that they do with this season's roster with job, but honestly, even without him just having Dame out there and drew out there and scoot out there and Diny. And like even guys like Tumani feel a little more comfortable when they do have to put the ball on the floor. They just have a lot working for them that is the spacing you have to respect. Some of that's 'cause I mean guys like Tumani and Drew and your guy Donovan playing in are just shooting the shit out of the ball right now. But even the guys who aren't, Damian Lillard hasn't even really hit from three yet. But you have to guard Damian Lillard. And so those trade-offs, I feel like give them such an impressive balance to their offense. They're still getting to the free throw line a ton and that's where yet again, Dame, I feel like the stuff he draws, I feel like the stuff he draws off ball in terms of with his movement like non-shooting fouls that when you're on a team with any of Dia all of a sudden become shooting fouls. That's the sort of synergy that I think has been really playing in their benefit and turn them into against all odds. The number one offense in the entire NBA right now. - Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about where we were two-ish years ago when we were looking at the way that they were building this team with a lot of guys on the same timeline, you know, Jeremy Grant aside, but we were looking at like Shaden and Scoot. It's interesting that Shaden is just not even, I think that's a whole lot of the conversation. But we're like, all right, we got these scoring guards that we kind of want to build around. How are we gonna do that? We assume it's gonna be like playing through the bigs kind of thing, but they've found this, and then we moved into this era where Dini kind of overperforms and turns out he's not overperforming. This is just who he is. He levels up, takes a leap, and we're like, how do we kind of reconcile having Dame back and having Drew, and is it like is Dini gonna lose a step? But instead, they've kind of moved into this synergy. You mentioned the number one offense in the, this is being led by the fact that they're the number one picking role offense in the league, which I never would have expected. And I did expect Dame's gravity to help the overall spacing, but you're right, like the synergy is like going deeper into the clock, which is just a sign of like offensive maturity and guys playing together. So the nicks do that in the finals. I think it's a big part of why they won the title, but man, they are shooting the show out of the ball. I had that exact wording in my nose. It's probably mean like the spot ups. I mean, Camara is 54.1% on the league. The spot up three's 54.1, I mean, 37 looks obvious is 41.2. at 40% on catch a two stuff, you know, they're not going in, but he's like, you said he still looks like Damian, yeah, I don't know if he's like, uh, they've got body snatch and he's that maybe not the same dude, but people still see him and they're like, that's Daimler, we got to close out, that's benefit and everybody. Klingon's been good as well. I think, yeah, the shooting is definitely going to taper off at some point, but Dam has managed to click everybody into a more natural comfort zone. And I think Denny in particular, he just seems more streamlined, not having to do as much, but Kamara, just like, even when he isn't going to shoot well and he's going to have those games down the stretch, like he's just like a good in the flow decision maker. And I think you're starting to see that pop Klingon, I think, has been an absolute revelation thus far shooting is one thing. And I think you're starting to see the benefit of having even a credible shooter at that size where they're going against the nuggets. And like, Yokeh has to respect him out in the perimeter and all of a sudden you have Daim one on one against Aaron Gordner, not playing particularly well this year. It's a whole other issue, like, just takes him to the rack and like that is going to help what I think is going to be ultimately one of their biggest downsides is like how many drivers, how many paint touches you can get outside of Denny, especially the more where you put on Daim's tires. But you're seeing Klingon, like, even some of the subtleties in his playmaking start to pop where he's just like very savvy in the handoff game. And like setting screens and having a guy like Daim who's smart and knows angles, but also has like the quick sort of burst that you're not going to get from Klingon from from Denny, like the relocating and moving quickly off the screens. You're starting to see that sort of ballet start to bring out the best thing, Klingon. And so it's really up and down the roster where you're starting to see guys. At some point where like city Sudoku, like Sudoku, city Sudoku, he is a puzzle, you know, we've been trying to figure out city for a long time. Even he is the type of guy where it's like, I don't know what you're going to get it from shooting wise offensively, but like he fits the vision where he's like he plays hard, which is the type of thing that I think goes over like unnoticed when you're just looking at the stat sheets. But also, like he plays like smart within the flow to the point where he's like in transition covered, like, lofting up a lob for I think Camara and it's just like there's just like everything is just working in concert in a really beautiful way. I want to dwell on Klingon specifically for a minute because yes, we are all acknowledging fully and openly he's not going to continue to shoot like 45 plus percent from three. I'm going to say it's going to come down slightly, but coming off of last season where he was already like league average or better, especially for his position, if he comes out somewhere in the middle of those things high 30s, that would be tremendous. And to be a high 33 point three point shooter as a big and a guy who's a legit room protector and an elite offensive rebounder, that's a skill set. Like if you if you do the overlapping venn diagram of those things, that's like two guys. And so everything that gives you as far as what it affords you stylistically, the way it trades off, the way it builds, the way it's kind of like complimenting guys like Dame, guys like Danny and the pressure that they draw in their own respective domains. Like, I think Donovan Klingon is proving to be just an absolutely perfect center for this group. And I didn't really talk about like who he can be as a high post pass or the other elements of his game. But it's just he's a much more unique big prospect than I think he was slotted, maybe even that I've given him credit for at times in this podcast. I'm just very impressed with the all around player that he's become better than Rudy Gobert, Justin. I mean, look at the rebounding numbers the past two years, pretty good. You guys mock me for saying he's the best rebounder in the league, but finish last year. Number one, we didn't mock you for saying he's the best rebounder. I don't think I mock you for that. The best rotation in the league. That's what we mocked. That's looking pretty good. I mean, if anything, if you have like a concern, it's that this team does play differently when Rob isn't out there, like he's just so critical to what they have, which is like two waves of these smart ball movers. And so like, for instance, they're going to play it back to back Friday, Saturday, like he's not going to play one of those games, like which game do you sacrifice there? Because then it gets start deep in the weeds where it's like Brandon Carlson, do we play young out there? Their third center, despite having options still isn't much of an advantage. And on top of that, like Vee Crachy went out last game against the Sunsy fractured his leg. That's like the one spot they really don't have the opportunity to sacrifice minutes because they don't have these like three, four types in order to fill even though Vee, like wasn't hitting anything miraculously despite shooting well as entire career, just like cannot hit a shot with the blazers. They needed his minutes because now they're like left with like the two way guys to fill those spots. Well, the real question here is if we can't have a Portland swear jar anymore because it's not swearing, you know, what's our new swear jar. We got to find something new. I think we are. I think it was already discovered in the process of this podcast, someone flagged it in the chat. I think it was Victoria that I think it has to be Luca like, is that not the answer? Every time Justin mentions Luca Doncic and a segment that isn't about Luca Doncic. It's got to be just and he's the only person who decides what the swear jar is. What do you say? It feels very targeted. I don't know. I just I feel like, you know, every every time I talk about one of the five best players in the NBA, I have to contribute some, some coinage. Me, if you talk about him as being one of the five best players, it would be a first for this show. But I would never say that I was very careful in saying nothing about like his actual effectiveness. It's just the means to which he gets there, which could be a little grating. If anything, it feels like, feels like the people have responded and I feel validated. Have the people responded? Yeah. Does that feel like a lot of people are jumping on the same sort of line of thought about the histionics? Here's what it is. In whenever you talk about Luca, I want to hear less about what Luca is doing. And I want to hear more eye statements from you. It's like, I don't like watching this, right? Like I am, you know, fatally flawed in a way where this is disruptive to my lifestyle. Do you have some reason? Okay, I will happily pay the price for this contribution. You don't think more than just the martyr is, is a, yeah, I'm willing to go down on my school. You don't, you think this is a me thing and not people being general being upset about this? There are other people who share this opinion. I mean, Bill was saying more or less the same thing on his pot literally this week. So like other people clearly share your perspective. I just think posing yourself as the people's champion for standing up to the powerful Luca Donchech is maybe not as compelling an argument as you might believe. I don't think that's what I was doing. And I think you saying that says more about you than me. Maybe when you look at people, like, I am in the mood, given the week that we're having to speak truth to all kinds of power, you know, I'm just, we're all riding our waves. And in Luca's case, that's getting a ref to kick a guy out of a game because he threw a basketball back to her very, very hard. That guy stood a guy throwing out of the game. That was fucking weird. What? I didn't see this. What happened? He must have said something on top of it. So like, I paused to say that like, I don't know what he actually said. And it was probably viral. Oh, no, yeah. Of course, I'd fans specifically in Utah, but he, like, he rocketed a ball back from, like, the baseline C and the ref kicked him out. And Luca was, like, almost badgering. Luca was on the ref side. Yeah. The first time in his life. That's how you know that guy was out of bounds or he's just, he's just this, he's soft. And he complains about it. Oh, my God. All right. Wasn't, wasn't Pat McAfee? Was it that hurled the ball? All I know is somehow in the course of that segment, just and just put like five bucks in the swerge are. So let's just, let's just keep racking it up. We'll donate it to charity. We'll see where it ends up. Yeah, my, my people are behind me. They'll pay my fines for me. But you missed it. Jomi. Jomi was literally sitting in the control room waiting to see what we were, we were going to say about Luca. So it's not a, it's not a delicate, he's here again. Okay. Yeah. All right. We're just being, we can't talk about Luca at all in privacy. Well, let me ask you this guy, just a circle back in the blazes before we move along. What do you guys think in terms of long term viability here? Like, do you think that they have asserted themselves as like a clear cut like top four team? Do you still think about them the way you did and like it's just going to be an early quick start? Like Rob, where do you fall in the blazers holistically? Well, we should flag that projection with, I believe they have one of the hardest remaining strength of schedule in the entire NBA. So to this point, they're doing a great job of beating the teams in front of them and certainly beating the brakes off of the Phoenix Suns every time they see them. Look, conversations over. Oh, that's insane. The mid-off has been buried, if not buried, it's like thrown in the incinerator, incinerator, ashes scattered into the Pacific Ocean, like that is done. I think they are going to be a good Western conference team, but not a great Western conference team. And this is, I think, enough to kind of embolden our expectations, it kind of push them up the hierarchy slightly. But I don't think we've seen anything to think that they're going to compete with the absolute best in the West or that they even necessarily have like everything they would need to outlast the rockets or the lakers or, I mean, maybe even a team like the nuggets, if they get their shit together in like a seven game kind of format, the blazers are really good. But I don't know, I want to keep expectations still somewhat reasonable for them. Well, preseason, Rob, you and I rated them at 17 and Justin had them at 18. So do you think we were all three low? Yes. All three low. Yeah, I think the Denver game was the point where I turned because like the first couple games, you're right. The schedule was pretty soft and even the Lakers game beating up on the Lakers defense, I don't think is as much of an accomplishment these days. But like the fact that they scored a hundred and thirty six points was just like kind of mind-boggling. toggling, because that's the type of team if you got into a shootout last season, just would have just sat on their hands, because they couldn't compete. So they actually, they have something there. The question is, one, the depth. This is the point where, like, having Shade and Sharp, I think, would be important to fill out the wing rotation. We didn't talk about Scoot, hasn't really equated himself in that first unit. I do think, like, he is typically a slow starter, so I'm still cautiously optimistic that he can click into place. And I do like that they're starting him, as opposed to bringing Drew in that starting unit, just to bring balance to the second unit. I think Drew's been essential to this team. Ultimately, I'm a little worried about the depth, worried about the high-end competition. They play the spurs this weekend, so we'll see that. But I think they've shown that if they could stay healthy, which is important for a team that has to, Dame, a lot of other guys, where they have some concerns there. I think they could be a top four team, and I think they proved that against Denver, where they looked like the better Sharper team. Denver might get a shift together over the next couple of weeks, we'll see. Like, they seem to step slow in comparison to some of the sharp decision making the Blazers were making up and down the court. Completely agree. I think the Dame part of it is a good one to note as well. Like, he's been healthy so far. Thought he's been moving really well from kind of whatever you might have expected coming into the season. But he is a 36-year-old coming off of an Achilles tear. And the way or over the course of the entire season is going to take a toll. Like, it may take a toll mid-season, it may take a toll after the all-star break. Like, there's going to be a moment of aggression for a guy like him, and what do the Blazers do in those moments? Do they have enough other infrastructure? Does their offense kind of start tilting in a way that feels unsustainable without having him as a counter-balancing force? It's not just like Kenny's guys stay on the floor, but if they do, like, what is Dame going to be when he's playing 82 games again at his age, with his injury history, with everything that this team needs for him, frankly? Yeah. All right, so elsewhere last night in the Western Conference, the Oklahoma City Thunder improved as 6 and 2 despite all of their injuries up and down the roster. It's interesting because, as tragic as like the Jada injury was, and unfortunately, despite the fact that I made a concerted effort not to seek out that clip, it found me almost like the It Fowls monster, where it's just like if you're on the internet at a certain point, you're going to see exactly what you do not want to see. And so I have that to halt me for the rest of the season, that's cool. I'm sure despite what a really awful circumstance the Thunder were put into, a very, very small part of San Press, he was like, "Oh, I get to dig through the crates of some fringe rotation players and give him some opportunities," because that's essentially what they found themselves in. And so you're getting guys like Micah PV playing, Bennett Sturth is out there. They started last game Rob with Mara next to Heartenstein. And in a nice little nod, they announced Mara as the starter at Forward, which I thought was really funny, because he's like one of the biggest players in the league. Obviously, expectations might have changed, but the Thunder still do what they do best, which is just fine contributors out of nowhere. Yeah, I mean, they're a different team, clearly. Like Shay has to do a lot more AJ Mitchell, McCain, like those guys have to show up as scores, or else they're just like not going to have enough juice. And then defensively, they're just not going to be up to the standard of who you would be with, Jada, Benchette, and Case and Wallace. And until very recently Alex Caruso on the floor, like you just have to adjust everything about your expectations of who the Thunder are. But once you do that, they do find those guys. And like Sturth's in particular, I would say it's been really good for them. But beyond him, you just have the outsized roles that come for guys like at Daimara, you know, J will kind of doubling his minutes and role with this team by necessity. Like they have plenty of guys who can step into more responsibility, more minutes, more scoring, whatever it is that you kind of need. It's just that in this form, they're not going to be able to compete with the absolute best out there. This is a biting time stage. And the fact that they're this good while they're biting time, I mean, it's what makes them the Thunder. Yeah, I mean, life gave them lemons, and they're trying to make lemonade by getting these guys experience. And it's like, oh, I mean, huge shock. They okay see Thunder drafted good players as we're seeing that are just ready to go. You're mentioning size. I mean, at Daimara, I went back and look, he measured barefooted, seven foot three at the combine. So I joked about him being like the Wimby Hulkbuster. I don't know. We'll see. But I mean, he's just he's huge. It's toe socks as well. Yeah. Pure barefoot. I don't know. I mean, what do we think? Like, do you think they're running around barefoot in Spain? What do we think? I would say that in his situation, probably, you know, abducted by a credible basketball club at a young age. So I doubt a lot of running around barefooted for a Daimara, but also big wine country, right? So you got to be stomping some grapes. That's true. I didn't even think about that. That's what I bring to the pot, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Off-color European jokes. Yeah. He's he's been more ready than I think most people, maybe all people expected him. He's been really ready to go because he just he looked really rough in the summer. And we just kind of thought, OK, maybe this is going to take a little bit of time. Yeah. He's a good passer. Like you said, it's a different team. He's a guy that they can play through smart screener. He showed pretty good touch on little push shots in the mid range, good lob threat, but you mentioned Bennett starts. I mean, this is a guy who I've watched a lot. I will say in the past, you know, two or three years. And this is a guy who went from like being the focus of an offense as a ball screen operator to just an overqualified decision maker as a second side guy. He is so clever at catching. I mean, just whenever, whenever there were a few different plays and I clipped a few amount for just for myself, but might tweet or whatever, follow me on Instagram. When Shay catches it on the left slot in the place where he likes to do it, likes to do business, the defense tilts to the nail and all that Shay has to do is just go kick to Sturts. You give Sturts that advantage. He's just like, he's not going to do anything just crazy in terms of hitting home runs or just making like mind bending plays, but he just makes the simple play a lot in the two main game with Mara, just realizing where the advantage is when it hits. He gets it to McCain gets it to Mitchell offensively. I think they just have, they have enough to we were talking about them being like a tier one team or not. I think they're going to still be a very good offensive team. They can't bring the fight to you defensively like they could in the past where they were just oppressive where you can't even get into your stuff when like, Cason is out there, when Jaydub's out there, but as long as they can hold the line, this will be good job experience for these guys, winning if, you know, the Chets and the Casons get back. Well, and think about the luxury that was Sturts of when you do go to the guy in your bench, not only is he a really good shooter, like you would be lucky to be an NBA team to dig into your like third and fourth string wings and find a guy who can knock down like 40 percent of his threes. That would be amazing. But to have that you mentioned the shooting, yeah, yeah, like to have that kind of shooter who's not strictly a spot up guy who is overqualified to create exactly the way you're describing Kyle. And therefore, when every defense in the world right now is trying to deny, deny, deny, shade the ball every time he's off of it, having someone who's making simple, effective decisions, attacking close outs, attacking open space, swinging the ball like that is worth its weight in gold. And so like he has like a nice, very tidy offensive game and rule right now for the thunder that as a rookie is just incredible found money, but they just have this shit sitting between the couch cushions and dig it up all the time. So Dagnott was talking about Jared McCain recently, specifically about the shooting slump that he's in right now. And he was just making a general point about players that when you're just a shooter, if you're not making shots, there's just like really no point in playing you at that point. And he was saying in McCain's favor, McCain's not that guy because he could do so much more and he was speaking specifically about McCain, but I also think it speaks to the overall trade off of the guys that they shed over the offseason outside of Isaiah Joe. And the guys that they're kind of like kind of prioritizing as a result of this. This was even happening before the injuries happened where it just seems like there's more widespread offensive juice creation, playmaking, being able to put it on the floor. And so while you lose a pretty key personnel member in JW and then also chat for your offense, it just doesn't feel like they're lacking in that point, especially when you have shade to do so much. Now whenever you say that about an offensive player at this stage of NBA basketball, I'm like, what's the other side of this NBA player doing way too much to early? I do worry about the long term ramifications of that. But you've seen with the thunder, like they're not missing shooting in some offensive options because they made it such a concerted effort to go out and trade 3 and D guys, more for guys who are a little bit more versatile have a little bit more juice to them. And so I think they're benefiting from that. And then you can go deeper in the weeds and find your Micah PVZ guy who can just like get a tap out in between two players and not rebounds out enough like those guys are easier to find. And so it almost helps you prioritize length and size and hustle in your deep bend players when you have other guys like Sturts and McCain and AJ Mitchell. And look, I know we kind of jumped straight to the Sturts di Mara zone of this conversation. But like any of this is only a conversation. We're only even talking about this because Shay can just go out there and back to back against the calves and drop like 85 total points like he's just capable of ramping up and dialing up in that way. Without cost as you mentioned, JV, but there's going to be a cost of the defense overall. I think the fact that they've still been pretty good on the boards has been a huge help to them like a di Mara being a really good offensive rebound or an addition to everything. I say a heart and Stein getting them extra opportunities and those guys holding up on the defensive boards. Super important. Like you can't be like some what mediocre coverage defense and getting killed on the glass at the same time or else you're holding. team is just going to sink. And so they've created a defensive baseline that can work for this group and then found all of those other guys. And I mean, the Micah PV minutes, they're not quite as like scintillating as the Bennett starts stuff or as like fun to watch as a dimara drop in and is like little eight foot push shots or whatever. But high-pointing an Evan Mobley shot to do that play insane. Evan Mobley looked shocked by that. As you should be. But like again, it's just like a truly sensational like physical prospect in terms of the way he kind of changes the geometry around there. But Micah PV is like quite flat offensive game from what we've seen of him really yet in any of his NBA opportunities so far. But like has the motor, it's absolutely running is able to turn a lot of these possessions into competitive ones just on pure force of will, which is exactly what you have to do in that spot. And if you're backfilling with those kinds of players, if you're backfilling with you know, Kenridge Williams stepping into the starting line up at times and just can like rebound above his weight and defend above his class. Like that is how you survive these stretches. And it's the reason why the Thunder have not just been equipped to go on deep playoff friends in the past. But in theory, can survive these kinds of injuries better and more effectively than just about any team out there. Well, you mentioned Kenridge PV yet another guy from the pill can system looks like kind of superfluous or just like not necessary in New Orleans, but you put him in the thunder system all of a sudden his hustle plays what he does well pops. And perhaps that's when you have an abundance of all the things that you need. You can like prioritize some role players and just stick him in there to do that until they do more. But like that's the benefit of the thunder system where they just give guys a little and then just keep layering on top of that from there. We'll see with PV. Maybe he's just a hustle guide. Honestly, it's not a bad guide deep in your bench to have. But like even a guy like Mara, who like Kyle, you could probably speak to this better than anyone, where it seemed like when he was at UCLA early in his career, there was something about not being able to speak to him that eventually in Michigan, he started to put things together, but there was still a concern ultimately about like what type of NBA player he'd be like, he seemed dialed in from the start. We talked about him like getting in better shape over the off season. There's something about the system creating just like this expectation of what a Thunder player is that I think filters down to the role players, which is why they're so successful at mass producing these helpful players. He said, speak to him at UCLA, like literally like language barrier speak to him, or just like see him as a prospect. Like get him to buy in and to do. Yeah. Right. Was that right? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. He just looked, slow, lost, unable to leverage his size. I mean, just a lot of things that he improved on, he improved his balance. He improved. He just was more physical. It just seemed like he was a more realized idea of a player. And you know, we saw those things at Michigan, but we're seeing them. Honestly, I just think we can throw the worries from the translation worries from the summer out the window. He just, he fits into what they're trying to do. You mentioned PV2. I mean, PV's always been that guy. And it's, I think it's sort of a cultural preference where he is just kind of a hustler in the possession economy in a way that just fits the way that the thunder think about games. But I've taken it back tomorrow a little bit. I was looking at his defensive differential in the he's just such the defensive thing has really, really stood out to me where he's such a deterrent. Yeah. Where people aren't his, his defensive differential numbers are up there with the most dominant room protectors in the league, which makes me think that the thunder just holy shit, man. I mean, they just they drafted an elite room protector where they did considering they're already, you know, state state of just massive success is a crazy situation to be in as a franchise. You can still, he is like a crazy shop blocker and already an impressive room protector in terms of both his instincts and when he stays down. And that's the luxury of being the size that he is. But you can move him right now, like you can kind of move him around the court in the chess piece kind of way and work around a dimara. Maybe that won't be the case though by your three by your five. Like once he gets even more sophisticated within how the thunder play and what it means to play professional great defense. Like for this to be a starting point and it's we're already flagging like all of these advantages that didn't seem to be there on the scouting report coming in all these ways in which he's a totally transformed player for whom who he was in college. Like if you watched him now for the first time and told anyone you were worried about him using his size to his advantage as he ducks in and just dunks over everybody, it would feel crazy. But it's clearly something has worked in terms of ironing out the priorities of his game, the priorities of his professional basketball life. This version of this player is really good. And this version of this player is something that could translate to thunder teams present and future in all kinds of fascinating ways. Justin you said it. I wrote this down at 755 p.m. Eastern time. You said that the calves are soulless. It's like clear identity buy in and you just watch the compromised thunder kick the ever-living crap out of the calves. I was just curious pick your brain on that real quick. There's just something about certain teams man where you could look at them on paper and the assembled talent and like what this guy can do to that and what should be a logical conclusion. But it just doesn't work out because there's just something dead behind the eyes and this is the calves. Unfortunately they have so much going for them. I know Peyton Watson hasn't been there. I know James Harden is out there like yelling at Kenny Atkinson on the floor. It's just like this shouldn't be that hard. And yet every step of the way with this team is just never has worked out and at a certain point I think you have to come to the conclusion. I'm almost at that point where it just might just not happen. Maybe more major changes are needed because there's something just deep into the pores of this team that has led to results like this. They should be able to at least hang with a thunder team missing three major contributors. I don't even think that any one member of the team James Harden included is like fatally flawed in any particular way. Like I think they all could be the best versions of themselves on championship level teams. You don't think James Harden is fatally flawed in any particular way looking at his career. You don't think that Rob. I somehow don't like it clearly has had awful missteps completely blown games in the playoffs. But if that was a team that was like one make away from making the NBA finals with Houston. Like there have been points. Rob is the way to the end of the poster. If there's a week he's better off you know, better with his stumping with the sleeves rolled up for James Harden. I'm not the one who picked the calves to go to the NBA finals. I don't believe in this team. I don't believe in these players in these roles. My point is that all of these players individually I like in various ways and then you put them together and there's enough kind of basketball friction between them in terms of just natural stuff you have to work through as a team over the course of a game in a season. And I don't trust this collection of personalities to do it. Like I don't think it's going to be explosive. I think it's going to be a little dead behind the eyes at times. Maybe a little quiet quitting at times. Like they're going to be good. But in some critical moments, they're not going to show up. And it's like I again, I don't hang that all around James Harden's neck. I think it's a collective issue about who the calves are and where like the void is in terms of kind of like motivational thrust with this team. Unfortunately, just found themselves in the position where what they need is the exact opposite of what James Harden brings. Like he's a very good organizational basketball player offensively. What they needed was more of like a spiritual organizer. Like they needed a Marie condo. Like he just somehow always finds a way to like if you have like a real mopey sad sack quality to your team, which is almost compounding that disadvantage when what they needed is someone to really spark something in them. He's not he's not that. Justin's just watching James Harden Isos and being like, does this spark joy? Does this bring anything out? And the answer is one. No, the ball gets swung to him on an advantage. And he's just like dribble, dribble, dribble. It's like, okay, I just I personally think that your superstar should dictate some of the things that you were talking about. But that's just me. That's just me. That's just my preference. I think your best players should dictate those things. But I'm old fashioned. Well, their best players don't have a Mitchell. So we haven't even brought him up. Well, honey, you're right. But he's not equated either. Well, we were talking about young developing bigs before I wanted just before we go here to bring up the quote that Nikolay Yokic was given after beating the Raptors last night, which I thought was interesting just in terms of like the big picture NBA and where we're going. It is funny when Yokic decides to just like play ball with reporters. He just like has a way of explaining the NBA to you. And I just wish he would do it more. I know the languages barriers as a factor there. But would be nice if like he played ball a little bit more there. I'm just curious overall what you guys think, Rob, because on the one hand, it was an interesting timing because he really gave it to the Raptors, a smaller team that I thought he pushed around in order to have probably his best game of the season. But on the other hand, I think he was suggesting something that we were seeing more wide spread, where it's just like the post game probably isn't going to be around in five to ten years because of the allowed physicality down below. Where do you fall in that? I think that post play, specifically postplay from Biggs with an actual size advantage like the yoghurt was talking about. is the single worst-efficient part of the NBA game. Like, it is ruthless down there, and I agree with his general point, which is that if you do have a size advantage, you are punished almost every time you try to wield it in a back to the basket kind of way. If you're someone like Wembee who can step around or just kind of like go over the top of people, that's gonna be allowed to kind of play within the modern game. But if you're barreling through anyone, if you're lowering a shoulder, if you're even giving the slightest bump, every benefit of the doubt goes to Alex Caruso, who seconds previous was just raking his hands all over you as you tried to get the ball in the first place. It's so funny that this came up 'cause I was just venting about this to, like I was having a conversation with someone who works in the league, works for a team, about this game. - You as somebody who has to play inside and can't shoot, so you get fouled a lot, and so that's what you're doing. - I'm gonna be honest, like this is a passion project for me for this reason, as a pick-up level big myself. - I could see through what you were doing, I mean, I can be transparent in that way. But like, when people lament the state of the game and the lack of diversity that they see in it, or like the three point focus that so many teams have, miss me with most of that stuff. Like I think that the game does have a natural counterbalance that needs to be achieved, and maybe we've tilted a little too far to three point heavy offense. But I think what we've really lost is not 2000 to 2003 era, like pure iso mid range, like mid post fade away basketball. What we've lost is this, like it's so hard to achieve consistent post entry passes, given the way the team's zone up now. But even when you do it, you just have no chance of getting any kind of clean offense out of that if you are a big, just by trying to do the things that big men were historically allowed to do. Like I don't understand why every other form of contact if you're a guard is prohibited on a level where you cannot breathe on these guys. But for some reason, Biggs, you could just jump on their back and it's all fair play. - I actually think it's probably more easy than you think where it's a little guy trying to defend a big guy. And unfortunately, the way that it comes across is that the big guy is just gonna pound on him despite the fact that it's actually the opposite. There's an optics problem like this. With that, and unfortunately, the way the league is going is a lot of teams are sizing down. Probably not as extreme as it was previously, but if you're going five wings, like the Raptors tend to do, then you're basically going to have to have a lot of those size players guarding the Biggs. And it just never is going to look in a way that I think is going to speak to what Yokich is saying. And part of this, I do think is like Yokich and Bigman complaining about things because simultaneously to this, I did see a clip from DeMarcus Cousins complaining about how guards all of a sudden started to ask for switches from Biggs and then all of a sudden he was tasked with having to guard guards. And he's like, I hated basketball at that point. And there's something to that where basketball found a way so that the Bigman had to basically guard players that even guards can guard. And so like I'm sympathetic to that, but like now we're getting to the point where like everything has been so jumbled positionally that you have these littles practically being the most important resource theme and they're so widespread. I imagine if you look at the roster balances, a lot of these guys are there as well. And so I'm sympathetic to Yokich's point on one hand. On the other hand, I also wonder if it's just the Bigman complaining about his job in the way that we would to our spouses about normal grievances as well. - Yeah, I mean, the Raptors are just an interesting case. This is not like, this is Gorilla warfare versus like traditional warfare. I mean, that's just not gonna be one of the most, they're digging and they're swiping and they're trying to help and parachute in. Like Rob, the point about the entry passing against like zone concepts is really true. It's just not the same as it used to be. I know a lot of people bemoan, you know, there's no entry passes anymore. It's just, you see those things. Post-up play is not as deliberate. And you know, we could, you know, Kirk's done a bunch of stuff about this in his books and his, you know, tweets and things like that. But what's Kirk wearing sunglasses, by the way? And it's in his inspirative, you know? Let me, it's going out that, I'm sure you're about that. But you just see it in a little bit more novel uses. Like LeBron last night was like posting up in transition, like finding matchups and things like that. So even though the world has changed, it's like, it's not totally gone. It's just situational use is different. I thought it was, I wondered if Yokeuch saw Bill saying that his prime was over. We should just do like prime watch for some of these guys. It's like, he seemed to take that personally and had that really had the overhand. It was a big push shot game from Yokeuch's last night. - That's true. - I don't know, man. I'm sure he gets fouled a lot and I understand being frustrated. - Yeah, I mean, the particular frustrations of playing into the Raptors clearly factored into that kind of messaging. But I still think if you just enforce the rules as they currently exist, they would favor bigs a lot more than people think. Like the idea that you can't draw a charge if a play begins in the lower defensive box and yet every time a play begins in the lower defensive box as a post up, it's just free reign to try to draw all of that shit and get under bigs and hound them. Like the stuff is there to make a clean functional post game within a modern context. Like I'm not saying it's gonna be ever what it used to be, but it should be a part of a team's overall approach, even if it's primarily as a playmaking hub. And for a lot of teams, for a lot of bigs, it's just not a realistic option anymore. Well, like Murray Boyle's, too, is like flying in, like nacho Libre, like what's it called? He's just like flying in and he sees some of those plays or he was like trying to bother Yokech. I was like, I'm very Yokech, I'd be annoyed too. That specific type of personnel, I feel like was built to get that post game. - It's true. - Yeah, from Yokech. - Yeah, it was the timing. I guess because he was having to fend off all these gnats and like swat him away for 40 plus minutes. That's one thing. On the other hand, he did look better than he had all season and I'm curious just before we go here, just like on the whole Requiem for the Nuggets as we once knew them where you guys are because I watched them in that Blazers game. And I thought like, yeah, clearly Yokech is showing some signs of where the shot has been noticeably absent this season and curious if that will round back into form and how much that speaks to his overall just like depreciation because of recent injuries or just age or because how much weight he has on him and how tough that is to carry as an athlete throughout your career. The one that really stuck out to me was Aaron Gordon. Like, I know we have to worry about Yokech considering how much he means to the game but like Gordon seems in a very tough spot. I don't know if you saw the play where Damien Lullard picked him up in isolation defense and kind of stone walled him. - Not good. - That was rough. And there were some other parts of the game where Drew Holiday took advantage of him. He seems like this could be it. Like I'm like legitimately worried that he might not be able to get back to what he has considering his injury, rap sheet is much more long. Where are you guys just overall in the nuggets before we get out of here? - Really good when it gets the Raptors very concerned about their season. Like, I think we focused on the Yokech stuff because it just seems very clear that he's not gonna be able to be the MVP Yokech that we knew on as consistent to basis as we're used to. And that's fine. Every player goes through that part of their career. The problem is like Jamal Murray's been fucking ballin' out. Christian Brown looks better than he basically ever has as a pro. There's a lot of things that are going well. Like they're finding rotation guys that have thin air as well to help on their bench. And yet they still look slow in the thargic and completely flawed. Like I think with all of the variables that have swung their way off setting the Yokech stuff or off setting the Aaron Gordon stuff, I would have hoped that they would have found themselves in a more competent balanced place. And it just does not feel that way watching them. - Yeah. I mean, if Gordon's not gonna be, the four words I think were the underrated thing that Yokech obviously being an all-time superstar this energy with Murray, all of that stuff was like an unsolvable quandary at a certain point. But I think the four words were really an underrated part of that run that made them special, whether it was in PJ and then Gordon and his athletic peak. I mean, he came in the league in 2015, I think. 14-15 was his rookie year. That's been a while, man. That's hard to do all of those jobs at that level for that long, but you know, it could be the case that by the end of the year they're still competitive. I wouldn't put it past them in a playoff series because of the level of problem solver and when the game slows down, we'll see. But yeah, it doesn't seem like they're quite at the same level. I feel like the four words are a big part of Y. - Yeah, but that's the kind of the difference, right? They've kind of shifted at least in my mind from, oh, this is one of the best teams in the West to like, you don't want to see Nicola Yoke in a playoff series. It's like, it's a totally different consideration set. - That's the diff. - That is, that is unfortunately the diff. Where are we on the diff? How are we feeling about basic math? - Well, the nugget's the diff or the, is Portland the diff? What's the diff team? I forget. - Cleveland. Cleveland's the diff. - Cleveland is the diff. - Okay, there we go, sorry Cleveland. - I did see someone suggest that getting all NBA Jamal Murray had a monkey pause effect or I guess we're doing one wish will all now. It's the same basic idea. Where it cost them Yoke it should engordan as a result. He has been great. He hit that one like fading into the bench three that brought them within three in that blazer's game. Unfortunately, the blazer scored on the other end. But like, he's been great. And I think to Rob's point, they are digging through some of the reserves and finding some guys. Like Hopkins has been pretty good. They haven't had Spencer Jones yet. Brazil has been good. At the very least, they targeted the right with some of their deeper bench players, which is like just young athletic role players. Like they kind of got away from the fancies of like trying to find this next wave of talent, the strawers and the Watson and some of the other guys, and they just like just give me a guy who plays hard and is athletic. And I think that's helped. And so if you have a case for optimism, I think it is that, but they're definitely like on watch throughout this season. And especially, I thought Kirk Piece was great the other day, just like really putting data behind the whole thing that we've been seeing for a while now, which is younger teams are going to have an advantage like the nuggets are aging out of their prime, not just yokich, it's kind of widespread across the roster. - But that's why it's good to see them so clearly handle a team like Toronto, right? That has that ferocity that has so many good young contributors that has all of the energy and the wind in its sales. And it's like to keep a team like that at arms reach in the way that they did. I mean, clearly the best win of their season, but also hopefully a point at which they can swing some progress out of a longer term. - Okay, let me wrap it there. I'm just talking to you guys because I didn't get all my takes out earlier in the week. - We're glad to have you back, Justin. We missed this part, you know? - All right, do you want to turn the cameras off and have another podcast just behind closed doors? - Let's run it back. - Okay, all right, thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll be back on Monday, hopefully able to see you guys, but we will talk to you then. 41+ in present and select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Starkicino or 18+ in present EDC or Wyoming, opt in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens, restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wage or amount, see terms at sportsbook.fandal.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gampler or 1-800-MyReset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Recall 1-877-8 hope-NY or text hope-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. [BLANK_AUDIO]