Weirdly Normal - The Science of Neurodiversity - Live from Latitude

Hello and welcome to Science Shambles and Book Shambles. This episode going out on both podcasts produce a trend here. This episode, like all of the recent ones, was recorded on the Apollo stage in the Cosmic Shambles Forest of Science and Culture at this year's Latitude Festival. And this event is normally weird. The science of neurodiversity are taking a name, of course, from Robyn's book, normally weird and weirdly normal, which you can still get signed copies of from the Cosmic Shambles shop online, CosmicShambles.com/shop. And he is joined on this panel by Professor Gina Ripon and Dr. Camilla Pang, their latest books available from any good independent book shop. The Lost Girls of Autism and Breakthrough are the two new books from both of them. And this episode you can hear, or rather watch, an extended version of on patreon.com/cosmicshambles. There's an extended intro from our MCs of the day back hill and John Luke Roberts chatting about neurodiversity. And also the extended audience Q&A is available to watch for subscribers. So head over to patreon.com/cosmicshambles and sign up. My lessons coming up in December in Cardiff and London, Gina will be joining us for one of the shows in London CosmicShambles.com/ninelessonsfordates and tickets for those. You can also watch this episode over on YouTube if you like. And enough for me apologies for my voice today, if it sounds weird, I've got a cold. Here's Robin, Gina and Camilla. Hello everyone, this is Gina, this is Camilla, we've done quite a few events together in the last few weeks and by the way, we just do neurodiverse neurodivergent, just explain it. So neurodiversity is every single person in this tent. That is the incredible variety of human brains, human perception, human minds. And the neurodivergent, I would kind of describe as being where the mind has the level of irritation and problems that arise from fitting within, in particular I think very often the social norms, but sometimes more broader norms, where that actually makes a lot of living can be very, very difficult, some of it can be hidden but lead to depression, anxiety, problems in terms of comprehending rules, things like that so it actually becomes, is that acceptable to you Camilla? Yeah, I also want to make a very big distinction between neurodivergence and mental health, because a lot of people get them, they think they're the same, even though being neurodivergent causes a lot of mental health problems, not fitting into society, they are very different. So I think that's something that I wanted. That's interesting because I had someone when I was playing, I think it was someone like Lechworth, where there was Guy in the audience and he said I'm bipolar and I sometimes feel left out of this conversation and I said the most important thing is that we can all have these conversations, that we can really talk about, whatever the definitions are, and I think it is interesting as you said, which is that they are different but at the same time like for instance the first reaction when I was diagnosed ADHD from one friend of mine was, oh that's interesting, I'd always thought you were bipolar, because the highs and lows and the rapidity between going, this is brilliant, oh my god, this is the worst thing ever and I want to kill myself, and I don't mean that in a flippant way either, and Gina, because I know that with, like a lot of the women that I've met on tour with the book I've just done, women who've been diagnosed with autism of 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond that, I think the oldest woman was 81 years old when she was diagnosed with autism, and a lot of those women have been previously diagnosed with depression, which of course has not dealt with the core issue, it's just been. Yeah, I mean, actually I've made reference to what I call diagnosis Bingo, in that lots of women when they get that far have actually had a collection of about six or seven different diagnoses, the most popular one seems to be borderline personality disorder, which if you actually stop and think, "You think whatever does that mean?" But I would just as a brain scientist like to confirm what's been said, I mean having spent all my research career metaphorically rooting around in people's brains, my mantra is that every brain is different from every other brain, and I think until we realise that then there's other conversations that need to be had, so I don't know if any of you are sitting next to your identical brain, but your brain will be different from your identical twin brain, and I think we really need to realise that. Yeah, I think this is. It's something we were talking about before, I think both of us were talking about which is. One of the. Some of you might know about the double empathy problem, which is for a long period of time there was this idea, well of course autistic people don't really experience empathy, and you will have kind of heard very similar things coming from the professionally ignorant Robert F. Kennedy Jr., just terrible things, ridiculous things he said, and what we were talking about beforehand is one of the biggest, but double empathy problem, by the way, is basically that it wasn't so much that autistic people didn't experience empathy, it was that people who believed they had normal brains weren't able to empathise with neurodivergent brain. In fact, the problem was very often lying within those people who went, "Well, of course, I'm good and proper," and that seems to be to me one of the major issues, which is the failure to accept the variety of brains and the failure to. So, yeah. Yeah, no completely. One of my favourite conversations when meeting someone is them telling me how my autism presents, they're like, "Oh, but you should be like this," I'm like, "Oh, should I? Do you want me to recite Wikipedia for you? Do you want me to, you know, put my headphones on to make you feel more comfortable with your profile of what autism is?" So, but this is the thing, like, where do you draw the line between someone being aware and actually trying to help someone versus, you know, you need to ask what you need. You need to know more about your neurodivergence, so that people are like, "Hey, I can cope with that with music, but trains aren't really bad," or, "Do you know what I mean?" I think there's a responsibility of someone saying that. I think there's that awful phrase, "We're all a little bit autistic," which makes people think. Because they think, "Oh, actually, I don't like scratchy labels in my clothes, so I'll be able to understand you, or how come you can wear labels in your clothes, and yet you call yourself autistic, those kind of issues?" Yes. There's actually something I like to distinguish between, so autism and, you know, neurodivergence isn't about a set of symptoms. It's actually more about the processing of that and how you respond to the world. So I do think, you know, when you get a diagnosis, especially later on in life, it can be so validating, she's like, "Oh, that's why I find that difficult, not because I'm wrong." One of my good friends, she's my age, 33, and she's just realised during her PhD and loads of mental health ups and downs, that she's actually got ADHD, and she's like, "Right, that's why I'm finding it very difficult, even though I know everything, to write it on the page." It's not because she's wrong, it's actually, it can be very validating diagnosis, isn't it? So that's the input, sometimes people will say, "Why do you want a label?" Which, as you've said also, then even as it's secondary issues, it may well irritate you as well, but it's a, but why do you want a label? And I would say that no one is after a label. No one waits, some people will have to six or seven years to get their diagnosis. They're not going brilliant, now I've got that, and I just continue. What you get when you get your diagnosis is you get a user's manual and you get a map, and suddenly you put. And permission. And permission, and the change, and it doesn't mean, because then sometimes people go, "Oh, then now it's just your excuse," and you go, "But it's not an excuse," because apart from anything else, very often it does mean there are lots of things you are able to do that you could not do before, and in no way crush yourself, but just go, "Oh, now I know what I need to do to fulfil this particular need." Yeah. But that idea that it's, you just want a label is, again, the kind of nonsense you get. Yeah. I think having referred to the double empathy problem as Robin and Emilie know, "I'm on a real overdiagnosis bandwagon at the moment," but it just seems to me that the double empathy problem is not knowing what a diagnosis means to people and saying, "Oh, I think we were to ration it." There's too much of that, you know, people wanting a sick note from life. And I think they haven't talked to people who've had a diagnosis, and particularly in their 40s, 50s, 60s, who the first response to all of the people I did spoke to in writing my book was such relief that last my life makes sense. And then the next thing was grief, you know. My life would have been so different if somebody had realised this earlier on in my life. And I think people dissing the note of diagnoses, of any kind, don't seem to have absorbed the idea of what that means. It isn't just a label, it's, I mean, Robin made a great quote, "I'm no longer lost in the universe," which really resonated with the things that people have been saying. And coming also, I was thinking of, because we were talking before and apparently Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to. Mae'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n Mae'n fawr i'n fawr ac mae'r fawr i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i' Mae'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hy ac mae'n gallu gwneud hynny, mae'n gallu gwneud sydd ymwyr, mae'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n Gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu gwneud sy'n gallu management gynllunig. Mae'n gwaith yw yn gwaith yw'n gwaith yw'n gwaith yw'n gwaith yw'n gwaith yw'n i'w i'n gwaith yw i'n gwaith i'w i'n gwaith i'w i'n gwaith i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i'w i "I don't want to watch Jeremy Clarkson's farm and go, 'Oh, that's the best thing I've seen all week.'" I couldn't have said it better myself. And I think to both of your points, if someone says, 'Oh, it's not a cure.' I'm like, 'Well, that's the point. The point is like, 'I know how my brain works. 'I know how to work with my brain now. Now I know what I'm dealing with. 'I can actually embrace it. I know it sounds really cheesy, but it's kind of true. 'It's amazing how you're like, 'Right, this is what I am, this is what I'm not. 'This is what I can do. This is what I cannot.' I'm actually really good at hyper-focusing for five hours, even if I forget to eat. But maybe that's okay. Maybe I find it very difficult to break down tasks into small things that people deemed valuable. But isn't it amazing that I can do this? And I think what this whole, the high point of being a new divergent is when you start to validate your experience as opposed to it being something you should eradicate. That's just like reductionist and there's not no way to live. So yeah, a diagnosis helps you actually live and you know yourself. Yeah, know yourself. Well, you were saying, Gina, in your book, The Lost Girls of Autism, which I highly recommend. Yes, brilliant. And you talk a bit about that you look back at your youth as a neuroscientist and go that you almost feel that you were part of the problem in terms of because as we know for all the women here, really you've only started becoming part of the story. It's not been the idea of autistic women and in particular the idea of ADHD. All of these things are like, well, no, it's very much a boys thing. And so people have had to be constantly misdiagnosed because they're not even allowed to be part of that story until very recently. So in terms of your idea that you feel that you were part of the problem in what way do you mean? Well, I think, I mean, the book you refer to it started off. Somebody said I've written a book about sex differences in the brain, sex and gender. Why don't you write about sex differences in autism? Would be really interesting. Of course, it's mainly a main problem, a male problem, but you should have a look. So I didn't like the idea, but I thought I'll go and have a look at the literature. And once I started doing that, I realized it would be a really, really tiny book, which may actually have been a good thing. But because for the 30 years that we've been brain imaging, or the kind of work that I've been doing with the autistic community, and I am at the end of a long chain of access to members of the autism community, I was only looking at males. And then I realized that actually more than 70% of the research into the autistic brain was only done on males. And I thought, that is really shocking, which is why the book that I've eventually produced wasn't the book I set out to write. And it's how can science, you know, a very active science and clinical community get things so wrong. And there was this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. So as a researcher, when I was recruiting autistic participants, there were very, very few females, because the diagnosticsist dice are loaded against them. Teachers are saying, "Oh, well, I've got a child called Jack. I think he's probably autistic." But if the child's called Chloe, oh, she's shy. She'll grow out of it, socially anxious kind of thing. So all of these barriers have been put in place. So autism is a real case study for how scientists and science really need to be careful that they know the backstory. Well, that's, that there's so many interests. Helen King has written a fantastic book about the history of ridiculous medical ideas for women. And I, again, this is a story of the history of science, isn't it? Where it starts off by going, "We start off, we need to have a model of the average human being." So here he is. Now, there's a broken version called a woman. And I often imagine about, there's a, I did this thing at the Royal Society where the librarian, Keith, wonderful man, had brought out this lift the flat book. I think I told you about it. And it was a lift the flat from the early 18th century. And on one side was a man, and the other side of the woman, you could, you know, lift the skin, lift the ribs, look at the lungs, all that kind of thing. And then just at the base, there is a pregnant woman just from the neck downwards. But to see her genitals, you first have to lift the face of Satan. And I thought that kind of tells us a great deal in some ways. Now, currently you were, so you were diagnosed with autism? Eight was it, and I'm trying to remember now, was it? Yeah. So when I was little, I actually had childhood epilepsy. And so because of that, I had like, I was very lucky that I had the doctors on my case. And they were like, wait a minute, she's a little bit, you know, neuospicy. And they were like, she's got autism. And then I had like, I had that when I was eight. So I was actually very lucky that my mum was so on it, because she was like an SCNT chair, and she's doing her PhD. And so I did have the help, I needed in school. And I think this is, like, I'm very lucky to have that. And that's why I'm like, why doesn't everyone have that? And we'll come onto that in a minute, because that's a really important point about schools and stuff. And then later on, when I had to do a nine to five job, I was like, this is not, this is not the one for me. I don't know what, I don't know what I need to do. I'm having like panic attacks, I'm a lurch break. I can't stop spinning outwards, I need to do this. And I realise I was ADHD. Because to sit in a chair for eight hours, I don't know who could do that. There we go. So the ADHD, how much did that change your, again? Well, can you give us some examples of kind of the palpable ways where you think this is how it changed the way that I was able to interact with the world and interact with, you know, within yourself? It started, I started to realise that it was actually distinct from me being autistic, which is very much like focusing in words, very much ordered, with ADHD wanted more. It was like, I want everything but what you're telling me to do. I'm like, right, why am I contradicting myself? This job is very important to me. And my mind's like, you're not doing that, you're doing everything else but that. And apparently, normal people don't have that. I didn't know, I was asking people, like, did you get that? No, and I'm like, oh my goodness. But what it did is give me the validation I needed to be like, okay, I'm going to have to go for an exercise every day. I've got a lot of energy, I've got a lot of, you know, I have to talk to myself every day to be like, I need to do these two things. As opposed to feel my calendar with loads of things, which I know I won't do, because as soon as you define something that you're going to do it, you won't do it. That's how I realised it. See, that's why I have to do things where, like, you saw me earlier, because yesterday I was on stage pretty much the whole day. And so I thought, I'm only on stage twice. And then I went, and so I came up to and went, what are you going to ask us about psychedelics? I went, what, am I doing that panel as well? And that's why I have to say yes to things that I have to do. So if you're stood in front of an audience, you can't go, I'm sorry, I've been distracted. I'm just going to go over there and do some coloring in. You have to do it, whereas if it gets to writing a book and article away, every week that I write my column for the big issue, I get a message from Alison and go, could you send it in on Monday? I'm going to write it right now on Friday. And Tuesday afternoon, I get a phone call saying, have you done it yet? And I go, I knew there was something. And that is never change. And yet every Friday, I really believe that is the Friday. I am going to write that column. You trust yourself so wholeheartedly that you'll get something done. And you're like, why hasn't it been done? Yeah. Yeah, you're confused. But I was going to say, we had a really good conversation like she half an hour ago about schools and about support. And you were talking about this and how it's actually not going to be, what's it called, legally? I think the issue, again, to get on the overdiagnosis bandwagon is there is a political context because it's serious face. The government is producing a white paper in September, which is investigating the costs of special educational needs support. Now, I'm pretty sure-- and maybe I'm just stereotyping. And not too many people here will have seen last week's article in the telegraph saying, whisper it quietly, the British public are being taken for a ride. And the issue was, do you know how much we're spending on taxes to send children with special educational needs to special support centers? Shock horror. So I think there is a kind of issue that children need support and schools have managed to provide it so far. But the costs are spiraling and the numbers are spiraling. And the government has said, well, we can't deal with the people who are needing the support. So perhaps we'll actually deal with the demand. So there's suggestion that they're going to cut the funding that special care plans won't be legally enforceable, et cetera. Sorry, that is a serious face thing. But I think it's just the idea that particularly with autism, the earlier the support, the better. And there are so many barriers. I mean, again, I don't know if there are teachers in the audience, but I've certainly encountered teachers who say, oh, in all my 30 years as a teacher, I've never met an autistic girl. And I think that would be useful if the teacher training organization actually addressed that as an issue. Anyway, sorry, bandwagon here. No, you're not at all. I think it's a really important thing. It's fascinating what the telegraph like to whisper quietly. They get very quiet about a London being the money laundering capital of the world, about embezzlement, about privatization where dividends are given for shitting in the water. And they'd be very quiet about all the sexual predators that are around, as well, in positions of power. But they don't seem to do whispering sometimes on issues that might actually affect the world. And more people-- sorry, you were going to say something, but I'm not a big fan of the telegraph or any newspaper. Please join me for the burning of the telegraph wicker person. It was XPM. It's in the shape of Simon Heffa. Sorry, Emily, are you going to-- No, no, well, that's just a green. I was like, yeah, no, I agree with you. But yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I know it's a serious topic. But it's really important, because it's happening. And I don't like the thought of, instead of acknowledging the problem, you're like, oh, no, there isn't a problem, because we're not going to make it legally binding. I'm like, whoa, I'm like, I'm-- when she told me that, that's fresh in my mind. That's ADHD for you. It wasn't something I practiced, but it's something that's completely at the front of my mind. And we're going to have to move towards diagnosis rationing. There's going to be a one-out, one-in policy, I think. You know what I'm saying? But again, it's all about-- as you said, it's all about finance. It's not about that, because the overdiagnosis-- there's a book that I think it's fair enough to say, you're not keen on it, either, and I don't think you're either. And it's this, yes. And it's this, so I'm not even going to name it. And it's a book all about overdiagnosis. And-- Is that actually two? Oh, there's another one. Oh, no, there's-- Oh, yes. And it's had a huge amount of attention from the Guardian, from Radio 4, from all of that kind of me. Well, I am a bit worried as well, that kind of, you know, pretend worry. And I think one of the most telling things in one of them is it says, in chapter on ADHD, it says, anecdotally, I worry that the majority of people diagnosed with ADHD see no palpable improvement in their life. And then in the next sentence, the words include, though many of them say they're much happier. And, yeah, and that, to me, is-- and apparently, that author, someone did say about that, and they said, oh, yeah, I just met this guy who told me. And I go, so you met a guy who said he wasn't happy about his ADHD diagnosed. And you went, oh, well, I think anecdotally, that must be nearly everyone, then. That doesn't sound to me as someone has a non-scientist who's very worried about whenever I put science and books. This scientist doesn't seem to be-- it feels to me like they've got an agenda rather than an actual interest in how it changes your life. Yeah, agreed. Well, come, throw something else. This is, again, on this idea, which, to me, it feels one of the big problems is-- and I think this is also why so many women were diagnosed is, because, very often, both, I think, you know, with ADHD, a lot of the women I've met. My ADHD was a lot more similar to actually to the women that I met, which is, you weren't showing off at school and bouncing around the desks. You were sat there unpicking your jumper, and you were very still, because you were filled with anxiety. Yeah, masking. The masking element. And that seems to me to be one of the problems, which is people that say, basically, they say, if you're not causing a problem to us, why don't you just shut up? So that's why you mask, because you go right-- so you hide yourself. And because you might appear to be coping, they go, well, why are you making such a fuss, then, because they don't realize that what lies behind the eyes is something very different to the performance you're putting on. And I think what you're talking about is gendered socialization, because it's girls who are told, be quiet. Don't make a fuss, make friends, be nice. And it is the majority of autistic women who have been failed to be diagnosed, who present in a completely different way. So not only have they not the support that they need, nobody's actually including the clinicians and the therapists, et cetera, have got an idea of what they're going through. Only they themselves, and there's some amazingly good books, having just a couple of other ones, about late diagnosed women as sort of personal testimonies, autism in the heels, for example, that old girl out. Great, great books, where women have suddenly found their voices and said, hey, you know, there are autistic women, and this is what we like. And it's actually nothing like what the autistic default person has been presented as since the 1940s. Well, I just find that when people approach me, and I can see that they're walking in different skin, you know that thing where there was a woman and I was playing bath a few months ago. And I kind of, some of the things that she was laughing at, and the things she was nodding at, I think, when I speak to her afterwards, she's going to say, I've been diagnosed with autism in the late '86, and that's exactly what we said, but I just saw this person who had such abullions, such kind of, that everything that had made them feel that they had failed. You know, so many people who've had jobs, they've been mothers, they've run all these, and yet they've lived their whole life feeling that they are failing. And when they get that, and just to me, it's one of the most exciting things to see about the potential of really understanding yourself, is to say this person looks like so many shackles are gone. Yeah. And also, sadly, because it happens very early, I mean, we've been looking at four and five-year-old girls in school who are already camouflaging. And so, you know, all of their lives, they've been kind of masking and, you know, finding life difficult, and you think, that's a tragedy for a child growing up, you know, being called weird and other and things like that. I think when you're already from a place of difference, but at female, from a different culture, or race, you mask any difference that makes you feel like more of a risk. And so I think masking is also very prominent in people, you know, who have color and who already, and, you know, I personally at school, obviously got a lot of, you know, bullying and stuff. That's fine, but I think when you mask, sometimes you don't know what you're masking, and you turn it into something else to be a problem, so I did that when I was a little, but before I had ADHD, I was trying to hide something that I think quite understood. And so I had, like, a bad eating disorder. And so I was like, I need to hide a mask, whatever this thing that's working against me, instead of working with it. And the moment I got that diagnosis, I was like, I felt like I couldn't solve myself anymore. I thought, oh, I can actually live because I know how to handle what this is. And I think it gives you that permission to work with yourself. Do you know how to make any sense? Yes, it does. I wondered about, I just quickly wanted to mention about the fear of diagnosis as well, because my friend Joanna, I don't know if she's, and she's going to be on this stage later on, when I was chatting to Joanna Neary, who's wonderful, if she's just playing anywhere, check the thing, look it up. She's always had absolute joy to experience the work that she does. And she said to me that she was worried when she went for diagnosis. She put it off for years, because she went, I was worried, they were going to say, no, you're normal. You're just shit at being human. And I think that is a genuine worry that people have, which is they just, because they've lived. I mean, that's why I hate that book about overdrive. Mae'n gallwn i'n gallwch ei gweithio, mae'n gallwch ei gweithio, mae'n gallwch ei gweithio. Mae'n gallwch ei gweithio. Mae'n ei gweithio, mae'r gwaithio'r gwaithio gwaithio, mae'r gwaithio yn gwaithio'r gwaithio yn gwaithio. Mae'n gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio yn gwaithio. Mae'r ymwch ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n yw'ch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n a'r ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi'n ymwch chi' i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w sef i'w se y bywch chi'n bywch chi'n bywch chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi i'n gweithio i'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio Mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio yn gweith Mae'r ffordd o'r ffordd yn ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r fford Mae'n yw'r ysgiliau. Mae'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r ysgiliau'r Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. because for a lot of, again, neurodivergent people, when if you write out a plan and you know how it ends, you're bored. So there's no joy, so you don't write well. I mean, it's not like Ian Rankin, I'm not saying Ian Rankin's neurodivergent, Ian Rankin, I'm at various crime authors, I know, he doesn't know who's done the murder. Until sometimes halfway through he goes, oh, I think I know which free Mason did it. You know, and so it's kind of, but again, these rules which are actually stopping the joy of education, the joy of learning, the joy of curiosity, the joy of experiencing the world. - They motivate me more than they sadden me because I know that I'm not gonna follow them, so I may as well just press on them because it's more fun that way. My, what do they call that, demand avoidance? That is something I have. And you know what, I could literally just like, not get up a bed every morning, be like, oh, I can't do anything but because I don't want to do it, but I think this is why we exist. To tell everyone that those rules are relevant. - Are we run out of time? Thank you so much to Camilla, Gina. Thank you. (upbeat music) - Thanks very much for listening. Remember, you can watch an extended version of this episode on patreon.com/cosmicshambles. Head over there and sign up to Get Extended Edition. Lots of other stuff and support everything we do here that Cosmic Shambles these episodes wouldn't be available outside of latitude without your support on Patreon. Make sure to grab copies of Robin Camilla and Gina's books as well. Nine Lessons tickets, don't forget those. Go and get 'em CosmicShambles.com/9Lessons all profits to charity as ever. And until next time, we'll be back with another panel from Latitude, not sure which one yet, but until then, take care, stay safe, and bye for now. - This podcast is part of the Cosmic Shambles Network. (upbeat music)