Week 4 Hangover: Bryce Young's big night, the Chargers season gets worse, and the Giants move into first place

Welcome to the athletic football show brought to you by the US bank smartly visa signature card. I'm Robert maize today. It's the week four hangover me and Derek broke down three games from last night that we did not have a chance to dig into on the week four recap. Talk about Panthers lions and just a really impressive performance from Bryce Young in the Panthers offense dug into the Chargers Seahawks game, whatever the opposite of the Panthers offense performance was that's how it felt about the way that the Chargers offense played in this game and then rounded things out digging into Cardinals giants those three games today on the hangover with me and Derek let's get to him right now. It's the week four hangover three games that we're getting to today we're going to chat a little bit about Chargers Seahawks later which man excited for that conversation. They're also going to dig into giants cardinals but we're going to start things off with the Sunday night football game. Hit on it a little bit at the beginning of the Sunday night show last night, which we'll do every week. We will probably. In bench in passing mentioned what happened on Sunday night for digging into it in earnest. We really like to be able to revisit and talk about that game with some actual focus and so often why we save it for the Monday hangover and this is a game that was worth focusing on what an exciting outing from the Carolina Panthers and their offense Derek let's just start there. What were your impressions of Bryce Young in this game? Okay, I will give Bryce Young his flowers I promise I was so impressed with Brad Idzick in the way that they called it we can talk about that holistically. It was incredibly impressive and so I just and I think actually why I want to kind of frames that way is that I think it was a tale of two halves in a way I thought the first half like Bryce Young was like fine and I thought a lot of way that they were moving the ball in the first half was they were repealing them to death. They were finding a lot of these crossers that they really wanted like they ran, especially in the first half like one of the on one of their first plays with about 10 minutes in the first quarter. They hit an RPO into the flat with about four minutes left. They like motion a guy from left to right and run that like spot wheel concept, but they also get the tight end out in the flat they throw that to him. They go back to that same concept in the second quarter and they hit Tettaro and McMillan on like the little spot slant they were able to do that they had a third down conversion later in the game where they threw like an RPO bubble. There was another one laid in the first quarter where they hit Tettaro and McMillan on a stick on an RPO bubble like it felt very college and I think that they were doing a good job of finding all the holes in the defense that way. And then in the second half, I think is where you actually saw a lot of the Bryce young like standing in their under pressure, getting to his third read, you know, deep in the play, being able to make those throws it really was like a. You kind of got all of what you would have wanted from the offense in the two different halves I felt. I understand what you're saying. I think my takeaway from the game and my takeaway from a Bryce young season has looked like up to this point is that I think he's been a really impressive problem solver. I think that has manifested in a bunch of different ways I think he's done some of that on his own we've talked about that and there were several moments in this game where it came up where he. The little even the little flippy added Chuba on their second drive he finds space in the pocket in order to do that on the third drive he slides his right just a little bit against the blitz and hits Tettaro McMillan on third nine for 26 yards. The little flip to match on fourth and four on that exact same drive he's finding just enough space against a pressure is McNeil is kind of condensing the pocket and that is really stuck out to me this entire season is just his ability to within the pocket even as things are a little bit muddy either finding a little bit of space to throw finding a little bit of space to extend I think he's done such a good job of that of solving problems on his own in a lot of ways this season. But by leaning into the RPOs you allow him to be a problem solver in a different way you're giving him a tool to do it and so even if they were really leaning on that in the first half he's good at that you should lean on that and you should have it as a tool in your box if you're building this panthers offense because of who your quarterback is so I'm with you I think the second half to me was more impressive just in terms of the big boy NFL quarterbacking things that he was doing but for this offense in this quarterback specifically. You should have that is something you can lean on consistently because that's a strength of his game yeah that was not a criticism at all he said it's what he was really good at in college is being being right with that stuff the ball comes out really fast from his hand like his release has always been really quick and now I think what we're seeing from him and this is a big criticism I had with him even coming out but obviously earlier in his career his ability to like find a way to throw around people was always going to be the biggest hurdle for him in the NFL and I think for large parts of his courage didn't see that. And I think even against the Browns you struggle to see a lot of that but I think this game you saw a lot more of that and if that is something that he can do more consistently that's how you start to get over a lot of the other issues that I've had with him. And so I did think his ability to do that in this game was impressive the third and nine that you mentioned where he rips that one over the middle like that was a really good the subtle movement was really good. I also I don't know where Derek Barnes was going in terms of his hook presence I thought that was like he's like coming back downhill when there's nobody there because the back is in protection I thought that that was crazy but and then he had a couple of throws like that in the second half where I thought he was willing to stand in like the touchdown he throws to Teterot Mcmillan against cover zero there's going to be a guy who's about to hit him the safety is coming free a little bit late and he's able to make that throw he had a couple of other throws I another one to where actually was really impressed with his ability to just stand in the pocket. It was definitely in the second the second half they were backed up in their own red zone and it's a pure under center drop back play and they have like stick to the left hand side and from the right hand side you have the rapper out coming from behind. And he gets like a little bit in his face and like somebody who's like about to cover the stick so he's like I'm not going to throw it he comes back side and he rips the rap route and I'm like okay that is the throw you need to be able to make if I'm going to sit here and say like oh he can't do all this stuff and so it's if we can build on more throws like that and more plays like that that is where you start to get me to believe in this thing. So that drive there up 22 to 19 is the player talking about happens on that drive that drive from him it legitimately might be one of my favorite drives a quarterback has had in the NFL this season. He hits that throw going backside on a straight under center drop back on second and eight they're running play action. He fits an in breaker over the linebackers to Bryce and Tremaine in like a really tight window to really really good throw and then the lions run a simulated I think on the next play with DJ want I'm dropping off the line of scrimmage. And that ball is out of Bryce's hand immediately up the seam to match you right past one of them's ear for like a big gain right after that and they go down and score touchdown like that sequence of plays as I'm watching that happen. I'm like all right what else do I want to see from this guy if he's going to play like this if we're talking about all the things that are allowing him to find a path because he's finding windows and ways to throw around people he's accessing areas the field that even bigger quarterbacks that should theoretically be able to do it more often more consistently aren't able to access some of the aggressive throws that he's making the ambitious throws that he's making like that drive in particular like that just made me sit up straight in my seat. I watch him do that and I'm just not sure other than watching him do it again and watching him do it consistently and just having this be kind of the status quo for how he plays. I don't need to see anything more than what I saw on that drive I just think I need to see it more often for us to believe that this is just here to stay but I'm getting to a place where I'm kind of willing to believe that it might be. That's what it's in terms of like the beats of it and what he's actually doing that throws that he's making it's that game I think for me now it's can you do it against not the worst defense in the league and can you do it over the course of like five six weeks can you kind of sustain this over the course of the season because I think. And I do believe that they're at that part of this is absolutely real but we see all the time that for the first eight weeks of the season some quarterback some offense is absolutely on fire. But I do think with him specifically because it's been incremental growth year over year and this does feel like he's kind of crescendoing and what is. Now year three of this offense it's it's as well put together it's ever been even though I know they were banged up obviously this game without cocker. I can I can start to believe it and so this is for me I do want to see it more often like I think I'm not willing to change. 40 games of opinion off of four but I think if this is something we stand like through the holidays and he really gets brings this team to the playoffs playing like this yeah sure why not I understand that I think. I don't want to be a prisoner of the moment I think I'm more willing to not forget the 40 games but. Come off of what I believe done over those 40 games because this has been really three of the four games that they've played I thought he's played really really well and in the game where the offense didn't play very well against the browns they have 50% pressure rate. I get it's really hard to play quarterback period when the offensive line was playing the way that it did against Cleveland last week and so. I going back and looking at the last two years of Bryce young conversations I was really excited by the way he played at the end of the 2024 season I really wanted to believe in that and then last year. It just didn't really feel like he took a demonstrable step based on what we saw in the back half of that second season and so there was part of me that. I don't know gave up is the right way to frame it but I lost some faith I was like maybe this is just who he is and maybe this isn't going to happen for him and that's kind of where I landed with it at no point did I want that to be true. like the idea that I'm some Bryce young haters hilarious like I think Bryce young being awesome rules I think a guy like this in the NFL playing like this would be fantastic and so if this is just who he is I couldn't be happier to have been wrong about thinking that we kind of reached a dead end with him because that's kind of where I was with it coming into the season and then the way he's played over the first four games I think that I probably I wasn't right about that like I we had not reached a dead end with him he has played significantly better. Over these four games and I think we have ever seen him play he's seven in the NFL and EPA per dropback and that's earned like with the way that he is playing he is a huge hand and why that has been the case for Carolina. And I think that's where I'm at like he is definitely better than he was last year I think for me it's a matter of like how much of him being seven to N.P.A. per dropback or whatever it is how much of that is real like how like what is the like is that something he can sustain or does he fall more closer to 14th by the end of the season which two. He could be clear was still a massive that's a massive win given where he was 18 months ago and so again I think I still have reservations about like what really is the ceiling with him and again I think I want to see the sustained over a little bit longer of a period of time I will say though I kind of love the way that the offense is built and like what they're trying to do with him because he's not at least now he's not scared to make throws I think very early on in his career when he was trying to figure out how to be a smaller quarterback and stuff you saw him. Take the foot off the gas in moments and like that but you really did see I think even last year when he was struggling he's willing to throw down the field like obviously we all remember the Rams game but they were doing that at times you know in plenty of other games and so the fact that he's willing to make those throws to gargantuan pass catchers every single level I mean like all of their guys are truly like 6364 plus I do think it actually makes for like a pretty interesting offense to watch. I agree and I think coming into the year we were curious what the is a impact would be going from canalistic calling plays what would that look like and I think that it's a feel for situational stuff and just a structure of the offense it's a unique offense like there's this combination of them being willing to live in an under center condensed world at times to them they're living in this like a spread out RPO world and that was one of my questions for people there in the summer when I was asking about what they wanted the offense to be it felt like. There were kind of count there were ideas that were disparate enough that how do you make this like a cohesive vision because you're living in kind of these separate different worlds and I think they've done a really good job like a really admirable job of tying all of it together even if a lot of that stuff is hard to tie it together and I think they've done it in a bunch of different ways like the RPOs help do that. And they have guys that are on their staff that were from college and you know they're they're a little tiny tools that they use within the offense where it's like are we're going to do stuff that is rooted in like NFL ideas and NFL concepts but we're just going to be able to account for one guy on the backside of things with some of these RPOs and that that always sounds great in principle like when you're trying to do all these different things at the same time the word they used is we could be diluted if we try to do that too often and when you watch this thing it doesn't feel diluted at all. It feels very potent considering how many different things they're trying to be at the same time it is really impressive how it like they are trying to do so many different things and it never just feels like they're just grab bagging plays because sometimes not in offense is like this where it's just like like the Brian table like it tightens offense feels like that I mean a lot of his offense is tend to feel this way but like that style of thing where it's hard to figure out what is supposed to be tied together I again I feel like they'd have done a good job and I think usually what happens there is when you get these offense. The reason it works is they figure out what are you not good at right now what what are you struggling at what can we pick on in defense it's not just like grab bags of stuff that they like it's grab bags of stuff that you don't want to see and I do think that it's especially in this game did a really really impressive job of that. It's funny that you frame it as stuff you like because that was one of the other things that came up this summer is that I asked them like what do you want to see from Bryce. In year three and one of the things that came up is just the idea of all right it's year three in the in the offense we want him to really take ownership of the offense and that wasn't meant as a slight to him in any way I think it's more just a commentary on when they got there to Carolina you got benched right I think that there was a real humility to him early in his career and he just that sort of personally he just kind of wired that way and I think the hope this year was okay we want you to be really vocal and what you want the offense to feel like and one of the stories that they told me was the day before I got there two days before I got there was the first stop that I made in my training camp tour this year and they were talking about how the day before in practice. There have been some issues with like with a couple of routes and a couple details and after practice price it said something about like I just didn't really like the how this went and they encouraged him like well why don't you get in front of the offense and say that. Why don't you talk about why you didn't like just the way the practice went yesterday it's not necessarily something that he would do on his own not because he's not willing to but again it's not really how he's wired and so I think they're charged him this year was like we want to hear from you more about how this can be your vision of the way that we want to play we want you to put your stamp on everything we're doing in a really in fat way and that sounds really good in the spring but then are in this in the spring in the summer but then when you watch the way that they're playing right now. Doesn't this feel like a quarterback who really believes in pretty much everything that's happening and everything they're doing because when I watch him right now he's playing with such conviction that that's what it says to me. Well he's playing faster because again I want my biggest criticisms last year was that if you're going to be a little bit physically limited or a lot of physically limited I think it's especially in his case. You got to go man like we've got to believe in these throws we have to get them out fast and I thought I highlighted that specifically in the quick game last week but I think you are seeing it in a lot of other parts of the game like some of the throws that he made under pressure in this game are like. If he hesitates another quarter second that window is not going to be there or he's going to get hit by the time the ball comes out and I think there were too many of those plays last year where I think for sometimes bigger quarterbacks they are still willing to withstand those hits where they have enough arm to where they can be. You know fit that throw in there regardless and he didn't and so the fact that we're seeing a little bit more on the other end where he actually is starting to just play faster and believe it and. Shit if you're wrong you're wrong you throw an interception every now and that's going to be what it's going to be and I think the fact that he's a little bit more willing to play that way. You're seeing it and so again I think I want to see it against not the Detroit Lions but we are definitely tracking on the right on the right path. Couple of numbers all throw out that kind of speak to what we're saying here eight yards eight air yards per attempt on a 2.67 time to throw for best young in this game. Did you felt that he's playing fast but he's not living underneath like he's pushing the ball down the field while playing fast 9 of 11 for 95 yards against the blitz per next gen which he's been really good when they've sent extra bodies at him because he's been willing to attack those voids very quickly. So again overall just across the board incredibly impressed by the way that he played it helps when you have. That guy that you're throwing the ball to that that's also part of this. And they kind of have two of them and one of them just didn't get to play in this game. That's the other part of it and that's the other thing that I think it deserves a lot of credit for is that. Even if team act did play and he was obviously phenomenal and just the entire passing game was built around him for the most part and he affected the game. Pretty much at every single level it's like all right we're going to give you a little like yak RPO at yak RPO opportunities. We're going to throw a deep hinge routes to you with Bryce is going to get back to on the backside you're going to catch those slot fades for a touchdown like all the work he's doing inside. Truly just a spectacular performance but when you look at the offense overall they're banged up man. I mean I broke when real feeling gets hurt in this game they were already banged up a tackle coming into the year with mode not playing. Coker's not playing in this game like I think they're playing this game and didn't listen to play in this game. That's right that they had a backup left garden this game. You saw that I want that one play where boy boy kind of got bullied by Lee McNeil but overall the idea that now two years in a row really. This offense has been able to sustain despite some moving pieces along the offensive line just just incredibly impressive stuff across the board. I know it's the lion's defense. I know there's contacts associated with that but I just. It really stood out to me like the way that they played and how this game was called and what the offense has felt like over the first four weeks. Anything else about the panthers offense that you want to hit we talked about mostly in broad strokes but did hit some of the specific moments that really jumped out. No I think that was mostly it for what I had from their offense. All the other things I would probably say about this are just like what the hell are the lines doing on defense but their secondary is not the team that they want it to be and I think that that just kind of is what it is. I got a certain point it's not worth harping on these are mostly not players they want it out there to begin with. Yeah and it's I think that part of it is also when you look at the numbers from this year they feel like an all defense that is grasping at straws when they're trying to find answers. They played 20% man last night they have played four of their lowest man coverage rates in the past three seasons in their first four games this year four of their eight lowest man coverage single game rates over the last three years they've given up a 30% success rate. In zone coverage in those three in three of those games at least a 50% success rate and they've been even worse playing man. So I just suggest that this this team with a current state of their secondary should be playing man coverage but when you've lived that way for such a long time and now you're trying to not live that way because you can't this just feels like a defense that's scrambling for answers. can't find them. Mm hmm. And I think you saw that. Obviously, you see that in the secondary. I just don't think the linebackers are playing very well right now. Like you're having Derek Barnes cover more than he's probably used to. I think Jack Campbell doesn't look as clean as he used to. Their third linebacker situation is not good. Like that's the other thing too. They can't even get into base because I don't think their third linebacker situation is very good. Like they're just, they're in a very difficult position right now with how they have to call the defense. They're, I mean, there was a play one of the fourth downs. I think that the panthers converting the fourth quarter, Jaylin Mills is covering, I think, Mitchell Evans or something. Jaylin Mills in 2026. That's where the lions are out in their secondary. On the other side of the ball, it was kind of a strange game from the lions overall. The lions were in the shotgun on 74% of their offensive snaps in this game. Did you notice this? It was kind of bizarre. Part, I continue to wonder their, their run game is fascinating to me because it's the opposite problem that they had last year. Last year, they were super explosive and they could not win down to down. This year, down to down, they're not bad. Like they're actually one of the better teams in the NFL because I think it's a little bit more runs that are trying to keep them on track. Some of that is from the gun. That's kind of what a lot of gun runs are. They're not explosive. They are not getting these 20 yard pops. I think they only have one this entire season, which is like antithetical to the entire point of having Jameer Gibbs in their offense. And so I think they used to run the offense where we're going to kind of just eat shit a little bit in the run game and just like pound-to-head, pound-to-head, pound-to-head, under center. It's going to allow us to be the offense that we want as like a, as a under center play action team. This game, they clearly got away from it. I think sometimes this has happened to, to Jared Goff and the Lions before. Teams where they feel like some of the pressure stuff is going to get to them. They will get in the gun and just hope that Jared Goff can sort it out. Like I remember they tried to do this against the bucks. I think it was last year and had kind of a weird game for that reason. So if some of these games where you can force them out of it, the offense gets very hurty jerky. And I do think that one Goff felt to me a little bit more finicky and frantic than I think he normally does. And I think that's partly because of what you're talking about. They're in more gun dropback stuff. But I also just thought execution errors for a lot of other players like James and Williams had a number of really tough moments in this game. I thought like obviously he gave her arms the go ball down the right side line. But then there's a dig that Jared Goff puts on him after he has to bail from pressure a little bit that he can go up and get he gets two hands on it. And he just doesn't come down with it. And so it's a Jameer Gibbs has the drop in the seam like on the little angle route, which Jared Goff is a little late there. But you expect the player like jibs Jameer Gibbs to be able to hold on to it. Like just a lot of execution type stuff like that when they're having to live in a when they were living in a shotgun world that they don't normally live in. Yeah, it was just kind of strange. I mean, Goff, 90% of his pass attempts in this game came out of the shotgun. I just can't imagine that's how this team wants to live, even if you're a little bit concerned about some of the pressure stuff. And to the panthers credit, some of the pressure stuff did affect this game. They got free runners on multiple simulated pressures where they had somebody free coming off the right side because pennacule was squeezing down wall of the lions had enough guys in protection to handle some of that stuff. And so there were handful probably three or four moments in this game where something they'll panthers were trying to do pressure wise did affect the play. But I'm just not sure that the panthers are a pressure heavy enough team for you to go completely against type in a game like this. And for it to lead to the offense feeling her key jerky in the way that you're talking about. It did feel bizarre like I especially too because the game sometimes teams that want to be under center and live under center they get out of it early because they randomly go down like 13 0 off the bat. And it's like this game in the first half was not really out of control for them like it was a relatively like the first half of the game was not that crazy. It really wasn't until the second half again that you really saw Carolina really start to run away with things or at least towards like the two minute warning and stuff like that. And so the fact that they got out of it so early. I also thought early on you saw them trying a bunch of those like pole protections where you're having the guard come all the way over and like none of those plays really felt like they were connecting for them. It just kind of felt like after the first couple of drives they were struggling to figure out what they thought was going to work against this Carolina panthers defense and that amounted to them just like asking Jared golf who is a pretty good quarterback to throw to a handful of pretty good pass catchers and hope that they can make enough plays and I actually thought they scheme to some of that stuff up well like again I thought that there were throws to be made over the middle of the field and some of those are you know golf missing almond Ross ain't brown in the red zone on a little bit of a seam route because he feels pressure or the Jameson Williams drop that I mentioned like it was all these little bits of executionnaires and it was kind of a weird blend of I don't think they should be living in a shotgun dropback world the way that they were. But it was skimmed up well enough that they should have made enough of those throws in place if they really wanted to. It just kind of feels like this might be where we live with the Lions this year where the offense for the most part is still very good and again they weren't great last night they had a 33% rushing success rate they have 46 yards on 15 carries and their run game has been inconsistent for a good chunk of this year again and if the offense is going to have three ish drives a game where they come up empty and it's going to be imperfect but the defense is going to feel like this that might be enough for them to lose some of these games and that's just an incredibly tough world to live in isn't offense where unless you're scoring just at will throughout all like throughout these entire games there's probably going to be you're probably going to leave the door open a crack for the other team and that's just a really tough place to be and it kind of feels like the Lions are in that place. Yeah which is I think the issues are different from last year but that's kind of what it was last year well like they're still a top 10 offense. It's just you have some of these like creekier issues and again I think it's it's funny that last year was like they could still be very explosive and then down to down they just weren't as good this year it almost at times has felt a little bit of the opposite and I think especially in this game it felt that way. All right let's get to our next game here but first we're going to take a quick break. Seahawks chargers Seahawks beat the chargers to 30 to 23 not an indication of the way the game went just just going to throw that out there right now and it's not that's not because the Seahawks were particularly good in this game. I don't think the Seahawks especially their offense was particularly good in this game but the chargers for about 95% of this thing were unwatchable. They were terrible. They did not do anything. I mean the first play of the game they try to run like play action sale to the right hand side and Justin Herbert just throws it at it's just truly one of those plays three different people could have picked that off. Drake Thomas is the linebacker to that side where he like takes one step to bite on play action which is not very convincing and he shoots back up to get under it and then you also see the corner who's like running with the the vertical on the outside he falls off to go and pick off that sale route so somebody was getting hands on it almost regardless. He did that a little bit later in the game where they're trying to run dagger and he just throws the digs straight at her as Jones and so you have a number of those plays from him and then just like execution areas and drops from other people like Keaton Mitchell had drops in this game. So I thought some of the play calling was also bizarre like there was a play there was a sequence later in the game where they're like in the red zone Justin Herbert makes one of his great plays of the game where Leonard Williams is dragging him down on a fourth and four. He rips this ball to to Gadsden. He catches it and the next play they call like a tray Harris reverse pass like what I think we're just so many bizarre moments like that from this team from every player and then you obviously have like shots later goes down like it was a nightmare scenario game for the offense again. The two Herbert interceptions are two of the worst plays he's ever made in the NFL. They're inexcusable which is like the interception last week where I was like that's the dumbest interception he's thrown where he just throws it at the post safety who was never going to be anywhere else other than where he was. So same thing as those two linebackers they were never going to be anywhere else but where they were inexplicable choices on both of them and he deserves plenty of culpability in the way that this thing has looked over the first month of the season but it's just unworkable like when you watch what they look like down to down I mean there's just really no getting past some of the stuff you mentioned the play calling that that sequence where they they ran that the reverse pass after the first down was hilarious. I just can't even imagine doing that at any point in the game when you look like how you've looked offensively the season you got get maybe it gives you a jumpstart but like let's just throw that shit in the garbage like let this is actually play and the other one in this game that I just couldn't believe happened the game is close right it's late in the first quarter and they actually have two really positive runs in a row they're just getting in some two back stuff and there's like we're just going to run the ball downhill they get I think it was Vidal went for nine yards when they were in jumbo with Al King gold next play they run like a little counter wind back with the full back on the field they get 15 to a Mary and Hampton so we're moving right things are moving moving down the field building some momentum they immediately run reverse to Quentin Johnson that goes for negative four yards. Yep and that was the other sequence where I was like the play calling I just don't understand it and maybe that's one of those plays like it works out and you're like oh he's a genius but like I don't I don't think that they have enough like horizontal stretch and threat in this offense for you to give a shit if they're going to run a reverse like that and what's funny is like I actually think they're downhill run game stuff this season has had some nice moments and like you literally just saw proof of concept of it on that drive just be that just be that because it's been it's gotten better over the course of the year like just be that you look at the so those are some of the moments that were frustrating just in terms of the play calling the sequencing just how what they were the stuff that they were trying to do Overall, just the circumstances the offense was trying to operate and were completely untenable. The sea ox had 12 quick pressures in this game. As soon as you get up over 10 and you get to a dozen, it's just the sign of an offense that's not functioning. You just can't function offensively when that's happening over the course of the game. Leonard Williams, DeMarcus Lawrence and Nicki Minaj worry all had at least four pressures in this game. Each one of them had a time to pressure of 2.68 seconds or less. That's the four pressures each and like some of these are you do about that and because like some of them are just like, yeah, these are great players. They just instantly beat a rookie guard like whatever it's going to be, but there were a handful of like completely unblocked like there was one early on in the second quarter. It's a third and four. They're under center. They slide left to the three technique in the edge, but there's no other like pass rush bodies there, but they're sliding that way because it's Leonard Williams and you're scared of them. There are two other potential blitz threats and the two down Lyman to the right side and they just let them go and the back has to take two for one because both guys come. Obviously, he can't get them and I think Herbert gets hit and it's incomplete. And then what the Seahawks were doing a number of times in this game was getting even worry like on the edge, but but the way that the the chargers were then calling their protections was like they were treating him like an edge player and not like a standup, you know, body like a linebacker, whatever, and they weren't just letting the back go like in my opinion. If you have these situations where M and War is on the edge and you have a lot more pass rush that's the other side because there was one where they had four to the opposite side of M and War. Let's just full slide this thing and let the back take him and is the back probably going to lose the M and War is sure, but I would I think I would rather live that way and try to throw hot than wasting Roshan Slater trying to pick up a safety like I just the way that they were handling some of that stuff. And obviously credit to the Seahawks like using him in that way is so creative and fun. But I just thought that like the chargers did not have an answer for any of that kind of stuff. Yeah, the offense was an absolute mess and they score points to get back into this thing. When you look at how that actually happened on a couple of those drives, the Seahawks had four personal files on the chargers two scoring drives in the second half when they called their way back into the game for they had to each on two of the drives that the chargers did not really earn those points for very much of that game. And also that's also a situation to where like not that the Seahawks guys are like giving up or taking the foot off the gas or whatever. But when they're up three scores knowing who they are, it's like this is probably not as serious for them. And then yeah, of course you get a little bit sloppy with the penalties like the score makes this game look a lot closer than it ever was, which is funny because we look back at games at the end of the year and we're like, oh, it's a one score game. Like as you know, it's a coin flip blah, blah. And sometimes you have these games where it's like that was never even sort of in contention really. Yeah. The Seahawks had a 56% pressure rate in this game. And the chargers had a 36 and a half percent drop-back success rate. And you felt that over the course of the game. Their numbers running the ball were actually okay. Some of that is lifted by the fact that they had a number of efficient runs in a row in the second half when the game was already out of reach. But again, anecdotally, they were running the ball. It was very feast your famine in the first half is what I would say. There were a lot of negative runs early in series where you're putting yourself in second and 10. And then those sets of downsides just getting away from you. But they also had a couple of moments where they were running the ball decently well. That's it. It's certainly the only positive to be found about the way that the chargers offense played in the first half of this game. And I don't, this is over. Like there's no way for them to claw their way back into this thing over the course of the season. And so we don't have to have the conversations now, but there are going to be some tough conversations that have to happen. I don't know what you do at this point if you're the chargers. Well, and again, because like Slater gets hurt, I think that there are a couple of other issues on the offense. Like the last thing I want to bring up, Ladmakonky is just like not the player that they want him to be. Like straight up. He had, there was a critical stretch in this game late in the first quarter. It's certain 12 I think and they run him on that like deep kind of sit like at 10 yards where if it gets completed, I don't know if he turns and gets to the sticks and converts it, but you get a fourth and two on like the Seattle 36. You probably go for that or you are at least in like good position. If you really want to do that, he drops that doesn't get it. And that led me to kind of just like the feeling of like he's just not been I think the player that they want him to. And I went and looked this up and I think that we knew that this would probably be the case. When this team is in 21, 22 or 12 personnel, he is third on the team in wider sewers. It's either Quentin Johnson or it's Tre Harris. And neither of those guys are superstars that should keep a player like Ladmakonky off the field if he is supposed to be that guy. But it feels very similar to the conversations that we've had about like Josh Downs with the Colts where it's like he is pretty good at certain things. He's kind of limited in the way that you're allowed to deploy him. And even then Josh Downs is like a much better player right now today than I think that Ladmakonky has been for this offense. And so I think it's just been really the fact that he's not been what you want. Quentin Johnson, I don't think has taken a step from what we thought was like a kind of promising 20, 25 season. And then every sort of promise you could have maybe convinced yourself about the offensive line is not even sort of there. And now Slater's heard again. Hampton too. And Hampton, like Hampton was going to take some step forward like every single fantasy that people had about this offense. I didn't even mean that use that word on purpose, but it was a lot of, you know, I think a lot of that blood into how we read the offense and fantasy football as well. Every single idea, fanciful idea that people had about how good this could be and the idea of parent Justin Herbert with Mike McDaniel and just the excitement around this group. None of it was warranted. None of it. It's been a single thing that could have gone wrong about this thing has gone wrong. It's been an absolute disaster like there's really no other way to talk about it or paint it. That's exactly how it's been. Full blown disaster. And I think like the cherry on top for this game, it feeling that bad. This was the first time the defense looked like kind of good. Like obviously the Seahawks end up scoring points, but like this was by far the Seahawks worst offensive performance of the season. And they really only like started getting the scoring going because the chargers muffed the punt and gave them the ball in like the 23 yard line. Like the defense actually played the defense today was like what you would have hoped going into the season where they are like they look like a mildly above average unit. They're not as good as the mentor teams, but they give you enough chances and they really only get screwed when it's like the Seahawks had to dip into the reverse bag. And oh, JSN makes one or two crazy plays and you give up a screen on a short field. It's like that's stuff's going to happen to all but the best five or six defenses and you could have lived with that. So the fact that you got what the defense was supposed to be on this game and then the offense was still an abject failure, that was like the extra bit of salt in the wind. The moment where the game flips in my opinion, the Seahawks had a third and 16 in the second quarter. I think when they were up seven to three, so third and 16 and Darnell hits JSN in cover two, he's just wide open as I think it was camera, which safety it was that was like drifting away from him and cover two. I don't remember the safety, but I remember the play because they actually thought it was a neat little design. That's one of those where, but he's third and six 16, the only guy we can get these 16 yards is JSN. So they run him on that like deep kind of skinny post into the isolated side, but on the trip side, the other way they have to number three runs straight at the curl defender to that side. It actually has to stay tied down. So Darnell can throw that ball over his head. I actually thought that that was a really neat design, but you would hope for a little bit more from the safety they're giving you a little bit of help. Yeah, the safety, it's to that side, it's Tony Jefferson, and he's just getting a ton of depth as JSN is getting vertical on that play and it gives JSN space to kind of break that thing off on the post underneath it, but like you said, it's a really good. It's actually Cooper Cup, who ends up pinning down both the linebacker and the pole player on that play to create the space to make that throw. And the game changes there that they see the sea ox score on the next possession, they get a sack on third and long on the possession after that. And then so they the sea ox score on that play and then early in the second half, they end up scoring again and go up 27 to six. And so the game kind of gets away from them there, but that that play in my opinion, because it was seven to three with eight and a half, like nine minutes left in the second quarter and you had them in third and 16 and them converting that really does flip the game. It absolutely ruined the game for them. And like that's just that again, in a lot of ways, like if you had given up that play, like that's, that's fine if the offense had given you anything, like three or four bad plays from the defense is going to be what it's going to be, because it really was that kind of performance for them. I thought down to down. They were really good. Like they were really, really good down to down. It's just that offense had trouble had promised yesterday. I mean, Darnell looks pretty unsettled for a good majority of this game. He looked unsettled and the run game outside of like they got one to pop later. In the game, and then the shaheed reverse was just getting nuked in the backfield all the time by Kalil Mac and Tully Tully pull out to those guys, which I will say the fact that the Seahawks run game for the most part when it's what they want it to be is we're going to run outside zone. It's going to be right at AJ Barner, all this stuff. We're going to run weak zone off of it. The charges are kind of like the perfect team to stop them from doing that because Tully and Mac are like, we are going to set the edge and we are going to get into the back field. And so that's another frustration is like you were like the perfect matchup for this team. You still had a couple of bone head plays and then obviously your offense gave you nothing. It was just all their losses this year have been particularly frustrating, but this did feel like in some ways this game should have been a lot closer and you should have had a chance to beat maybe the best team in the NFL and you just like completely squandered it. The touchdown to shaheed was kind of awesome. Oh, I understand that. Actually, really, it's a really fun thought coming into this week. It's like, all right. Jardine Price is her. Okay. So now we're working with some combination of George Hollani and Emmanuel Wilson. And we're really just trying to get by it running back. What we're missing most without price is pop, right? We have, we are missing the opportunity for explosive runs of prices not going to play. How do we solve for that? And the idea of putting Shaheed in in those moments to try to get one of those, I actually think is really inspired. And so for them to hit one of those in the way that they did, that's a really cool just sequence of events where you're like, this is a good idea. We should try to do this to make out for what we're now missing. And then to hit on it in the way that they did, I have to imagine if you're a part a member of the offensive staff, it's like, yeah, man, I can't believe that actually worked. You know, it's funny to mention Shaheed. Somebody posted this and I can't remember who it was. So I'm sorry, but they were like Rashit Shaheed will just score a touchdown in every way, except for catch one. Part of turns, kicker turns, give him a jet like any of that stuff. You'll find a way to the end zone, but peer pass. No, that's not for him right now. The last thing I'll say, I mean, I don't, what else are we going to say about the defense? Like, they played the way I want them to play against an offense like the chargers. They're not that. That's what I'll say. Like you watch what Byram Murphy did you watch it again. You mentioned what even worry did is a past as a past rusher. Even worry blew up a play five yards deep in the backfield as a run defender, Leonard Williams was all over the place. Ernest Jones had the interception. The defense looked how you want the defense to look. And now they're much closer to full strength than they've really been at any point this season. Because even with even worry back, playing a limited number of snaps last week, Julian Love wasn't playing. And so now you get even worry back in the nickel. But then obviously they're playing around with him and doing a bunch of different stuff. I think the fact that they're willing to use him and worry in a such a varied role and keep Pritchett as one of those outside corners and keep spoon in the nickel. I almost think that's a good thing. Like the idea that they weren't just looking at their watches waiting for the moment when they could get that third outside corner off the field. I would be I feel pretty good about that if I were the Seahawks like landing in this place four weeks into the season. Well, and credits Mike McDonald again. Pritchett looks like good. I still don't know if he's like as good as like the best of Terequilin, but Pritchett looks a lot better than I would have thought going into this year. And so again, if he's good enough that you can allow with their spoon to be at his best position because obviously last year these two would be on the field together, right? Like M&Wari and Devon with their spoon. But I think with their spoon is always at his best when he's in the nickel when you can really weaponize him as a downhill player. And I think the way that they've been using M&Wari is even more as like a missile and downhill weapon and really just throwing him at problems rather than asking him to sit in space and kind of read stuff out, which when you're a freak of nature athlete, the way that he is like, yeah, look, let's just send him at the problem. How do you feel about that? Do you do you feel like that? Even if it's the best way to use him right now and it really like arguably makes you more dangerous as a defense, would you maybe want to see him working on more stuff where he's having to figure out stuff in space where he's having to play more and cover just because at some point you probably are going to need him to be that sort of player and you can make an argument that's where he probably needs the most work. It is where he needs the most work. I have never felt that he was going to be a good player who was like on a back pedal, really taking space in zones like playing that way. I think he's really good as a flat defender. When like again, it's very limited what your scope is going to be. Or when he's playing man to man, he's actually pretty good. But I do think that he's always been a guy where the footwork is just a little bit sloppy. He can kind of be top heavy sometimes. And I think some of the angles that he's taken the further he's from the ball, whether it was his rookie year, whether it's in college, it's just not his best stuff. And I think it probably is a detriment a little bit to his long term development that they're not asking him to do that. But I think with as many other good players as they have, like I'm not necessarily worried about them trying to make the best of Nick M and Warren in year five. I think I'm okay with them using with Nick M and worry. However, they need to to make him the best defense that they can be in year two for him. I think that that's perfectly okay. Yeah. And the answer to that seems to be missile slash battering Ram, which he's taken to pretty well. They're using him like Frankie Lufu or something. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then come back and chat Cardinals giants. The New York Giants knock off the Arizona Cardinals 36 to 24. This play, this game comes down to the final play, I mean, the Cardinals were driving to potentially score the go ahead touchdown. The anti banks picks off. Jacobi percent takes it all the way back. So it looks a lot more lopsided than the game actually was. Plenty of stuff that we can dig into. I'm going to start with just with my big picture takeaway. From the Giants performance in particular, the best players on the field, in my opinion, yesterday in this game were Malik neighbors and Abdul Carter. And if you are the New York Giants, that's it. Like that, that is exactly what you want to be. Even if the season is going to be a little bit strange, because Jackson Dart doesn't play and you're probably not going to be able to get all the answers that you want to one of the big things with this team over the last couple of years is these guys that you drafted in the top five that are supposed to be these special players and both Carter and neighbors were supposed to be special players. And we've seen those flashes, right? When neighbors was healthy, he was incredibly exciting. And I thought what Carter showed last year, it was really easy to buy into him taking a big leap and just being a potentially dominant player. And then you go back and you watch the entirety of this game. Malik neighbors conjured plays out of thin air for the offense multiple different times. And Abdul Carter was legitimately unblockable, legitimately. He had eight quick pressures in this game per next gen, eights. And then you go back and you watch and it's like, oh, that's not fake. But those are real. Those are real. He is nuking the game. And so that was just my prevailing thought going back and watching this is that the young stars that the giants need to be stars were exactly that yesterday. They were incredible. I mean, the play that neighbors makes where they throw that like high like corner route to him. And it's, he's not even really open. And he just makes like a twist. That opened it all early in sane catch on the ball. And that's one of those like when he first became a rookie, it was like, oh, it's flashes of Odell Beckham again. That was another play where it was like, that is what it looked like when he was at his best, too. And so like, I thought that that play was incredible. Their offense was bizarre. We're like, I actually thought it was called and like schemeed up pretty well in this game. And the quarterback was just horrendous. Like they could have scored 50 points, I thought, with the way that they were, they were cooking some stuff up. Like there were corner routes left open that they did not connect on like the in the two minute warning. Like he could have hit likely on like a deep corner. There were a number of other stuff that I thought they were doing that was really impressive. Like I actually thought I wanted to give credit to like a giant coaching staff that I think we all were like, what is this really supposed to be with Greg Roman, Matt naggy, all this stuff? I actually did think in this game. It was called pretty well. And like they, they really picked on a lot of what the Cardinals were trying to do specifically in their two high stuff. Like a lot of their big plays came against cover two. And they just found like a really, really good answer for that. Like the one that I really want to talk about was in the second quarter, two and a half minutes left. They get into empty. And so scatobos all the way at the number one to the left hand side. Malik neighbors is at three. They run him straight up the field on that just kind of on a on basically like a seam bender. And the safety to that side. He's playing a deep half. He's so concerned about playing his rules that he's like, I got to get depth and I've got to push because that's what you do in cover too. You get off the hash. And it's like, let's think for a second. The giants are putting their best player on the ball inside. I think they're telling you they want him to run up the field. You should probably overlap and get there. But it's like a backup safety. And he doesn't get there. And you know, he actually makes a good throw. And so I said they did a really good job of picking on stuff like that for a lot of this game. Yeah, I totally agree. I had that play as well. A couple of the other moments that stuck out to me. The dry on the same drive where neighbors makes that crazy catch in the first quarter. There was a third and six where Winston gets all the way back to him on a third and six. The bill. The blitz pickup from cam scataboo on this play on this third and six is probably my favorite one I've seen this year from any single back. Not only does he stone wall the linebacker in the hole. He actually like puts him in the ground, which that was incredible. And so that really jumped out to me. And then the other play in my notes that truly like a game changing play the play right before they dance a bank's interception. The play that drew Philips makes to get the PBU on that second down in order to force that final play, phenomenal play. And then sorry, the last guy talking about guys drafted high they need to play well. Arvel Reese is a very exciting player. They're looking forward to the next however many years we get of Arvel Reese because he also had like four or five moments in this game. He's he's already got so many like you see some of the flashes and then to I just even think down to down. He's always going the right way and in the right spot. And it's a matter of like man, a few more reps. He's going to know exactly like when does he actually stop and like go hit the lineman. It's just like very small tweaks to him actually finishing plays and like getting in the way that like man, the fact that he's already moving in the right direction so many times like I'm I'm really excited with where he's going to be like. I the fact that they have so much speed on this defense and then you bring up Drew Phillips. He had another play in this game where they tried to throw like a screen his way and he goes up and immediately drives and kills it. He doesn't actually get the tackle, but it forces him to like slow down. He runs right in to remain Edmunds who he was able to make the play. And so I actually did think the Giants defense at certain points in this game were making some really impressive plays. So I'm the actually the other thing I want to shout out is it's not about the defense. But to go back to the coaching staff a little bit. Did you notice that when they the Giants I think got to it was when they the Cardinals had 14 points and they scored and the Giants get 12 instead of settling for the extra point to make it 13 14 they actually tried the two point to tie it up. I actually love that because not going just getting the extra point doesn't really it help you necessarily like you know one point is better than zero whatever and they failed it. But I actually like them taking the tie there because then later in the game they went for another two point conversion and they got it and so they're right back to even anyway and that's kind of the whole point of why you should do stuff like this is it can give you like more favorable positions and so I actually thought that was another little bit of like shout out to the coaching staff again like I actually do think in a lot of ways they're doing a pretty good job this year. Yeah, it was just a strange game with five combined interceptions and like those turnovers were all pretty impactful. I mean the game kind of does swing the Giants score to make it 14 12 like you just said. And then because they were down 14 seven right the cartels were really moving the ball in the first half they were running the ball efficiently so the Giants are down 14 seven as we get into the back half of the second quarter the Giants score. And then on third down on that drive to go we were set gets intercepted because Shelby Harris deflects the past to our release and the Giants then score to go up 19 14 and so that stretch in the in the back half of the second quarter from the five minute mark essentially until we got to the end of the half a lot changes in the game because the Cardinals were moving the ball pretty well and pretty consistently for a good chunk of the first half of this thing. And like yeah like I did think to there were certain points even for as well as they played in the first half. I still thought that there were just some weird moments from the Cardinals offense like the first play of the game like Marvin Harrison Jr's going to break open on like a deep outbreaker and for said just doesn't want to throw it. He turns it down and comes back to McBride. I thought that was a little bit weird and then the interception he throws on the high corner early in the second early in the second quarter. That's one of those like you he leaves a corner route low and inside which is like the last place that you're allowed to do that which if you're a veteran quarterback to me it's like you know you got to miss that high and away and so I just thought that was a little bit bizarre from them but for yeah for a Cardinals offense that for a lot of this season has actually had moments. Kind of a little bit distressing that in the second half they kind of fell apart the way that they did. And the defense is worrying at this point. I mean there's really no way around it like the defense is just concerning they just don't have enough good players really like saving Collins is great as like a run defender and every now and then he makes like a pass such play for you boot a baker was actually awesome in this game like especially in the first half he would driving on every single crosser that the giants were trying to throw. But other than that I think the cornerback play is fine but can be up and down at times and then I just think the front is not quite as impactful as we were kind of hoping for. Yeah I think that's right. I mean you look at it over the course of the game and they just weren't really affecting the quarterback very much that you just don't feel that front over the course of the day as much as you want to and it's they've invested a decent amount in it right. I mean like they paid for Josh sweat and free agency thought Walter no one I was looking forward to what his season might look like and it's early right it's early for a year to player. But they're already a little bit banged up obviously to lose will Johnson like you said they're digging into their depth at safety. There's a chance that this thing is kind of in tatters for most of the year and there are another one of those teams where the offense does have to outscore people and the idea that we're already there for weeks in is a tough place to land because I did have a little bit of hope that the Cardinals defense could be better than we might have expected because of how banged up they were last year. It's been pretty disappointing so far and if you're going to get banged up again, it's like well, then we're just going to end up where we were last year and that I do think to like injuries are going to hurt everybody, but because they play such a weird and specific style of defense, I feel like the injuries kind of matter more in that way, like especially with some of the three safety stuff in the way that they play their friends, like it just when you start to lose bodies and lose the guys who have reps in it, it does make for some tough sledding. All right. That is all we've got for the week four hangover. We will be on tonight breaking down Saints Falcons. So if you are watching this on YouTube on Tuesday, that recap is available in your YouTube feed. If you're watching this on YouTube, we'd encourage you guys to like, subscribe to all of that great stuff, especially if you are new to the channel. Yes, as you're listening to this, that was actually last night. Yes. Last night. What a game is when we broke. Yeah, I'm sure it's going to be a fantastic game. Can't wait for Saints Falcons. If you're listening to this on the podcast feed, obviously that recap is available to you. So please encourage you guys to check that out. For now, that is all we've got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you very soon. [MUSIC]