Wechseljahre: alles, was wir wissen müssen mit Dr. Simone Koch

Now we start with my solo episode of "Fast and Curious" and I'm here talking about topics that really concern me right now, whether it's society, politics, or the completely normal madness between job and life. And as you know, I always consciously take time out of time in nature, go hiking, go outside, just breathe through and I always notice how good it is and that's why I'm really happy that Bergfreunde is a partner of my solo episode. As Europe's largest outdoor online shop, they really have everything you need for being outside, from the backpack to the climbing equipment and if you don't further know, recommend a DigirHeads, real experts and experts on the phone and the whole thing will be delivered quickly, I can confirm, Europe-wide. So if you also see nature, movement and fresh air, visit bergfreunde.de and share with the code "Fast and Curious Zen" and 10 as a number, 10% on your order and now into the episode. Yes, today I'm talking about a topic that moves me a lot, but I think a lot of of you are also moving a lot, the change of years. And I'm talking about this topic with Dr. Simone Koch, she is a doctor, best-selling author and one of the most well-known voices for integrative medicine in Germany. After more than 20 years in the clinic, she took part in her private practice in Berlin specialized in precision medicine, so on health that is really thought out individually from genetics to hormones to mental balance. And with her platform "Koch's Kosmos", she shares her knowledge with thousands of people and shows how you can take responsibility for your own health. She was already with us last year in episode 92 of "Gast" on the subject of longevity and today I'm very happy to talk a lot with her about the topic of changing years, which in my opinion is still too little attention. Dear Simone, nice that you're back, welcome to Fast and Curious. I was just with you and said that two years ago I sat for the first time on the subject of changing years with you and you didn't even know that I had any. Now two years later I sat with you again and we looked at what has changed. So I went out and had such a lucky feeling that I have you and that I have someone with whom I can talk about the topic and who takes it not only seriously, but also tells me exactly what I have to do now and I just wanted to share that with more people. That's why it's great that you're there and maybe started in that way. So when should you think about the topic of changing years as a woman or what can you do long before you think that you are in it? Very optimally to a point where it's really good for you. So maybe in the mid-twenties or early thirties, early thirties is almost a little late, so in the mid-twenties, so that you can measure an optimal condition. Because what hormones apply is the amount we feel comfortable with and which we produce is super crass. So I don't know if that's just because of the many, many patients I treated. Some always have estrogen, that's around 50 and 80. That's a little low, but they feel totally comfortable with it and they're super happy with it. And some, for example, in the mid-twenties, always had a estrogen that was around 350 to 400, which, if you look at the normal values, is increased. But that was my norm when I was young. And accordingly, right now, I used to say, if I wasn't interested, I'd be 46 now. Now you have to be interested in me. That's one of us, yes. And now my values are always at 180, where everyone, a gynecologist, usually still says, wow, everything's okay, you don't have to do anything. But I don't feel comfortable with it. So I feel that. Of course, you can treat it symptomatically, but that's how I know it. My norm was more than double as high. And accordingly, I feel that as well. And that's why I think if you're still so young, you can raise a status quo so that you have an idea, okay, what is that, what makes me feel super? So that you can look at it later, at least be able to approach it again. So of course we don't have to do that. Yes, and that you then have a zero line for yourself at all, where you know, when you feel the first symptom and then the value is taken off, then you can see that he has already significantly over the, so to speak, significantly reduced value, because, as you just said, if you had just walked in with 180, 180 values, everyone would have probably said, what do they have, they don't have a change of year, everything is great for them. Exactly, so I think that's great. But now this question of when do I know that symptoms are changes? Because if you read through what all symptoms are, from mood swings, headaches, some tensions, I don't want to take depression right now and so on. But then you can also arrange them very well in terms of life circumstances and say, yes, to me it's just a lot or something like that. How do I know or how can you, somehow, how can you approach the question of when the changes are going on and when these symptoms could have to do with it? The researchers and those who are very, very active in the field, who is from the USA, Dr. Rachel Rubin, says about it when you are over 40. So if you have any of these symptoms and you are over 40, then you would first of all assume that the perimenopause is or something that has to do with the changes. We don't have a better answer to that, in principle. Because of course you can look at some kind of blood values, but the ones who really show up afterwards, okay, it's really going towards menopause, so that the fertility really goes to the end, that's only coming very, very late. And that's the thing where the school doctors are still aiming for it. So that's where we can treat it from an official point of view. And where you really work and bring the symptoms together. But in fact, a lot of women have already complained a lot earlier about what to do with it. And you can of course look at it. When you work in a functional area like I do, there are a few exceptions. That you can see, okay, good progesterone is much lower than what I write between 14 and 20. And when progesterone is on, and when progesterone in the second psychosef is much lower than that, then you can say, okay, maybe it's because of the yellow body, it's because of that. And if you had a zero line and the one is still under it, then you can see, okay, it's maybe also a functional estrogen lack in this area. But otherwise the value is technically difficult. And that's why I think this assumption that you just say, when the woman is over 40, then let's start with that. It's hormonal, and she doesn't have one on the weapon, because that's what the doctors and women always tell us. That's everything in our body. I think it's a totally nice approach and a much better approach than the idea. It's always all psychical, because that's what I really like to do. Exactly, and maybe go in there. What is still a myth from your point of view, and what is fact in relation to changes? Yes, a myth is that changes start with the last period, so with the so-called menopause. So the menopause is the last man we have, and that's what the changes start with. And that's nonsense, the changes start 10 to 15 years before that. So a very, very long period before that. Then there are the myth that all women somehow have the same symptoms, that we have the heat wave, the typical symptoms. Everyone knows that, I don't know, from books from Eiffel Tower to, I don't know, the heat wave. Many women have very, very serious heat waves, but have a lot of other symptoms, some of which are massive symptoms, and some women just don't have any symptoms at all. That's what you have to say. So it's a huge spectrum on which we move, and I would say that's two myths or discontent or even something classic, that symptoms like thinking disorders, mood swings, they can no longer concentrate properly, in case the feeling of guilt, no longer so powerful, a sleep disorder, that they can all be bodily symptoms, or completely crazy things, so crazy in quotes, but like shoulder pain and hip pain. Movement restrictions, they have to be stiff in the morning, don't want to get out of bed, that this can also be a change. That's what most people don't know. Exactly, and that's why it's important, because you could say that if someone has no symptoms, then no problem, and if someone has these symptoms and they don't change, well, then he's just doing it physically or something like that. But it's, so to speak, in the hormones, a lot of the cause for these things, and that's why you can of course do a lot of things there. And now let's talk about hormone replacement therapy, where I grew up with this study from the '70s, which was quoted to me by Emma after the motto, there was somehow a study done and women gave hormones in the changing years, and then they all got breast cancer, so you can say right away if that's really given again. And that's why we're just giving the 10th of the year the hormones no longer, and let them suffer slowly, so that this is fully recovered and you can really do something today. And that's why it's also important that, as you said, when a woman gets 40, she first studies hormones and doesn't say, "She's developing it" or "She's become a little bit wonderful". Yes, so Emma, let's briefly summarize the women's health study, because it has always been published. So, in fact, this study only showed an increase in a promenade for breast cancer risk, one of a thousand women. What was not thought of in the whole thing is that there is no longer an increased risk of cancer from hormones. Not necessarily for breast cancer, but for other cancer diseases. That means you actually have to counteract that. What kind of cancer diseases do we prevent by a hormone therapy? What do we prevent from overshadowing? What do we prevent from depressions that lead to severe restrictions? Even dementia. Dementia. Exactly, what do we prevent from dementia? And if you would have counteracted all of that, you would have seen it. Hormone therapy brings much more benefit than this minimum of cancer disease. Only somehow nobody cares about the woman. And you've already evaluated this study and found that even this one promenade is not so valuable, because a lot of things were not considered in this study. So we could talk about it for a long time now, we didn't have much time. But the conclusion is that it makes no sense and it was also officially apologized for this miscalculation and so on. But that didn't catch up with every little piece of paper of this world. And accordingly, there is still something that is very strong in the heads, especially in the medical field. And then there is the big problem, that a large group of doctors were brought up with this, we don't treat. That's very dangerous and very bad, breast cancer is no longer possible. So the one I still have, I learned it when I was two quite older gentlemen, who were very short in front of the pension line. They also wrote down every HLT, because they had learned it that way. And then I also learned it a lot from the beginning. But there are many who were from this middle group, so those who now have my age or a little older, they didn't learn it anymore. And that's why nobody knows where to go. That's why the development is new and good. Hormone medicine is also uninteresting, because they are not scheduled anyway. And that's why we have a huge gap around which nobody takes care of. And that's just a problem. And I hope that in the next few years, a lot will be done. Yes, that's a huge problem. And I'm sorry, in retrospect, with the generations of women, who I also met back then, friends of my mother and so on, it somehow didn't last any longer. That's suddenly so annoying or so annoying or so forgettable, or what they weren't all and what they weren't all written down. And that's why you sometimes said, I get it, but also that your husband has left her now and so on. So terrible if you somehow know how little was helped there. Maybe go in. What is hormone therapy for which phase of change? So where does it start and how does it go on? Usually it starts with progesterone. Whereby you have to say that there is also a relatively large number of women who don't treat progesterone well. So that's right away. In the meantime, you bring it very strongly to the context of neurodivergence. So with people who are a little different in general than others. The addition of autism and ADHS. But I think it's always important that there are diseases. There are a lot of neurodivergencies that have no suffering pressure. And we still don't treat progesterone well, in any case. How do you feel that you don't treat it well? That it makes you more restless. And sleep disorders are caused, sometimes also irritability, water storage, all sorts of things like that. Normally progesterone does the opposite. Progesterone makes a mood stability, increases sleep, is dehydrated. So it brings the water out of the body and makes a total stabilization. And progesterone sinks in many women from the 35th year of life. And can then be substituted in the second half of the cycle. And then it's up to 40, 42, 43, depending on the, so it's super pregnant. Even when the bacteria enter, when the pyramids enter, it's very different. Then slowly sinks the estrogen and, very, very important, the testosterone. Testosterone is very, very short. We always have the idea that estrogen is the hormone of women. In fact, it is so that the absolute testosterone value for women is much higher than the estrogen value. That means we have, if you look at it as numbers, much more testosterone than estrogen. So testosterone is the most important hormone for us. But we have... We don't order it at all, do we? Yes, we have a lot less testosterone than men. And that's why you said that men have a lot less estrogen than women. And that's why the estrogen of women is more important than the testosterone of men. But it can be explained a little bit that testosterone is also super important for us. For example, for the bone density. For bone density, testosterone is the hormone. And also for libido and orgasm. Testosterone is super, super important. Unfortunately, there is still no testosterone-preparation for women. Really? Really! Wow. Because no one is interested. I was so... I don't know, at some point, at some point in my assistant's time in the Gynn. But that didn't sell. So it was left for libido. Then it was taken to the market again and then it was like "puff". And since then it doesn't exist anymore. And if you are doing testosterone with women, it is always an off-label use. What makes too many colleagues afraid to do it. Even if women have an insane benefit from it. Exactly. And these are the hormones that you start to lead. In any case, it is still against the DIA and pregnenolone. DIA is a drug from the anrogenics and pregnenolone is the precursor of all hormones. So you can still do that in any case. Yes, and that's so exciting what you say. Because I think, as you say, the changes show in everyone in a different form. And I know that when I was with you, I described what symptoms are for me, how suddenly I suddenly have a low self-awareness. That I sometimes came into rooms at the beginning of this year and thought, "Oh, I would prefer to hide." So things that you don't trust me at all and which I of course always played well outside. But where I was really very small and thought, "Where does that come from now?" So there is actually no objective attachment for me to feel like that. And now that we have removed the hormones, for example, a very low testosterone value has come out of me. And that's amazing that you now say, "Yes, it is, but actually, if you are not someone who still describes it, then for the most part there is sugarcane." After the word, it's nice for you that you don't have any testosterone, but unfortunately we don't have a solution. Yes, absolutely. Yes, and especially what you just described, that you just notice, "Okay, I'm not quite myself anymore." And that's one of the first things that women often describe, that they come and say, "Something is different. I don't feel like I used to be like before. Especially mood-wise, a lot of things are somehow strange. And that's going to be, I don't know, a "midlife crisis", some things to burn out, some things arranged, depression. And actually it's just the waste of the hormones that causes it and that leads to the fact that you can actually do something about it. And I think you can also see something like that in society, that women, somehow, we always have to suffer. We always have to go through it. Exactly, birth has to be painful, menstruation has to be painful, that's also something typical, that's always said. People's pain is just like that, where you say, "What for us are you talking about?" "Why?" And that's what happens with the next year. And what is the future of hormones now where you say, "The changes will become much easier with it"? So maybe we can go through that, through your top three things that are the future of the hormones that you just said, progesterone, estrogen, testosterone. Simply add that the years will come where you maybe also develop the feeling of a new strength and it's not like the sacrifice that you really had to be in the past, because it wasn't helped by you. What's important is the successful conversion of the brain. So that's because of the changes in the hormones, the successful extreme conversion of the brain and the need for a few years and during that time you don't feel well. And you can support the body to adapt to this conversion. And the most important measures are how it fits with all sports. - Here, above all, strength and sport. - What for sport? Yes, so strength and sport, strength and sport is super decisive, but also things like sprint training. Here, it's important who has never sprinted, please don't start right away and do 100 meters of sprint all at once, because what is also sensitive to the loss of the hormones are the scenes and then there is the probability that you will get injured, when you've never done that, so start moderately and be a little careful first. And the last one should be mobility training. That's also very popular, like yoga or Pilates, or super. But it should definitely be improved by a real strength training with progression and resistance, because the more muscle mass we have, a lot of things are happening, that's anti-intensive, that strengthens the bone mass and it's also very, very positive on the hormone content, the weaknesses are just less. That would be the first most important thing. And that's a nice parallel to longevity. So a lot of strength, a lot of muscle helps you to become healthy. So you should probably do e-tune, no matter if you already have a change of year symptoms. What else? So, are there any other bio hacks? Is there anything about nutrition where you just say, "If you do that, then you definitely made the way a little easier for you?" Nutrition is also protein-rich again. I don't want to say how possible, but really very protein-rich. For women, the protein intake is actually 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight, because the protein biosynthesis gets worse. Due to various things that happen with an estrogen waste, the recording of the protein from the abdomen is reduced, as well as the introduction of protein enzymes and everything else, which is why the protein intake is drastically increased. So here, that's super important. The blood sugar should be as stable as possible. The fluctuating blood sugar level is super negative for the hormone balance and for the complaints that may occur here. Those are the two things. What is always helpful here is a Mediterranean diet, which is basically not bad. But you can do that with a completely different diet form as well. So a Scandinavian diet makes these principles possible. Yes, but with a Mediterranean diet, which is quite good for a high protein intake. Yes, and again, it's crazy how this goes along with longevity. Absolutely. Proteins are also very large in longevity and blood sugar as well. By the way, I can really recommend you "Hello Insight" or this favorite 3-tracker. It takes you two weeks to do it, and then you can measure your blood sugar in real time. Because then you get a feeling for what spikes in me. Because on one hand, you can drink matcha latte with Hafermilk on a nightingale in the morning and on the other hand, you shoot it up right away. And then you also see what effect it has when you eat vegetables or first apple or something like that. So I think that's a good test for yourself, because otherwise, if you sit down, please keep your blood sugar level stable. Where do I know? I don't know, absolutely. "Hello Insight" also has, I think they still have a nice program specifically for the alternator, where you can burn a little, which also looks like something. And the last axis is also, and that's also covered with longevity, but I have to say, half of the population is just female. And the thing that works for us there positively, which is also a big role, is stress resilience, stress control, so everything in that area. And that's also part of sleeping. So improve sleep quality, make sure that you have enough depth and have enough sleep. Sleep becomes significantly worse, both through the growth rate of the liver and also through the uterus. That means the cat is biting into the tail a little bit. If you have massive problems there, then sometimes no way over to hormone therapy. But yes, you can do it beforehand. So if bad sleep is mainly caused by a lot of stress and a bad stress control, then you can do a lot of it. What else can you do about stress control? So there are places everywhere, these breathwork workshops and breathing techniques and so on. Is that it? So what would be one or two things where you say, "How do I get my stress in control if I just have the life I have and can't change much now?" I also have a breathing training and I think it's totally good. I think the more important things are, it's totally good when you get used to a breathing training routine. Great, no question. It's also totally good when you take certain supplements, which are also great to balance out the cortisol growth. But I think it's more important that you do things like three hours before you go to bed or four hours before you go to work. And don't read any more emails or any WhatsApp messages from people who send me on the phone. I don't watch any exciting movies that are extremely exciting for me. I don't do sports in the evening, because that can lead to people going too high. I try to build things in my everyday life. And that means I just look out of the window for five minutes and just try not to do anything. Let the soul build. Exactly. That can be things that are super helpful and then of course breathing techniques. So three times a day, three minutes, certain breathing techniques can lower the cortisol level by 25% according to studies. So also super helpful and that's things like the one-hold breath, for example. That's just how you breathe in deeply. So you hold on, press a little bit against two fields, 14 seconds and then you breathe as long as possible. So the whole breath through the mouth, through the lip brake, you breathe out three times. And then you basically feel much more relaxed when you do it well, because you immediately feel much more relaxed. Very good. Now you just mentioned sex and libido, also in relation to testosterone failure. If it's like this now, that hardly anyone describes testosterone and that is a clear symptom of the change of years. What does the evidence say to desire, to dryness, to pain and which therapies can you or what can you do if no doctor in this country describes women's testosterone? Local estriol. Local estriol has no effect at all, no effect at all. It is also completely fine that there is a condition for women to give breast cancer. It doesn't cause increased thrombosis risk. That is the second thing that is always brought about by estrogen therapy. It is in the bi-packed bag and the bi-packed bag is wrong. And it has been running for years, initiatives to get rid of this bi-packed bag and the company is simply not interested in it. And that is to say, it is really a generation of women being massively damaged, because a therapy is prevented because of claims that are not correct. It doesn't matter where you ask yourself why, we don't want to make it too big and it would take me a very long time. But local estriol either as a recipe or as a cream. If you use it as a cream, then it's good. For example, I always brush my hair from the next door, I do it as a morning routine. When we get out of bed, my husband wakes up, the children and makes us cocoa and I still have a little time in bed. And then I do a massage of the disc wall and the area around the sink with local estriol soap and do bedding training. That's my morning routine and then I just stand there for 10 minutes after the other one and then I have it done. You can also just insert a sepia, but if you still massage the tissue at the same time, then you increase it by bleeding. And that helps again, it's more helpful than if you just... And you can also buy a recipe-free in an apothecary? Unfortunately not. You always need a recipe. So it's recipe-oriented. Here's a tip for everyone out there, when your gynecologist asks your house doctor for any reason. Most of the house doctors are very, very open about what's going on. There are a lot of different films, both for creams and also for sepias. And for the sepias, there are those that are high-dose, which then somehow mean forts and there are those that are very, very, very low-dose. The very, very, very low-dose are completely sufficient. So you don't need the high-dose. If you use the cream, I would really do it every day. If you use sepia, you can use it three times a week. You bend with the risk of hair loss infections. Massive. You bend with the risk for back-bodies, weakness, back-bodies reduction. Massive. And the shine lubrication improves, increases, the pain in the text improves, increases. And for very, very many women, the libido is also there. Well, look, there's a lot already won now, if people hear that for the first time, because there's just no way around it at all. Where we are right now, what's the price, what kind of recipe do you need? I am legally secured and I pay my treatment privately for you. Because I just said, I mean, just like you wear a new coat and a massage and whatever I always wear, you think in Germany, if you go to a doctor, then you have to pay for the start. And if that's private, then I don't do it. I sometimes think it's funny how we give out so much money for restaurant visits and what I know, but then for what makes us long-term, somehow so little. Which treatment pays the cash, the laws, privately? And where does your own investment come from? Because you say, that's not that much, but now, for example, right now with the cream that you describe, but you simply have a massive impact on your life. Yes, so these creams actually pay the hospital cash only when you have complaints, but then you have to say, you have complaints, so and the lubrication system and so are adequate complaints. And so it's probably reasonable, hand-to-hand, there will be a classic diagnosis for that, then the cash is already paid and otherwise the cash is also paid for complaints, the treatment of the change of years, so in heating and so on. The problem is that it is determined first when it's out. So perimenopause exists in our system, not so much. Yes, that's why it's a bit difficult. Blood rates don't pay the cash, because it's out of here that it's impossible. So you only treat symptoms. And that's right, too. If you have a really good intraception, then you can feel for yourself whether it's good now or not. But we have to say, in today's time, who still has it? Yes, we will, especially as women, we will add that it doesn't matter how we feel. It doesn't matter to me, I don't say. Yes, exactly, and you don't think about it that way either. That's what I thought at the beginning of the year. I thought, when I say to myself in my environment, I'm feeling so small with my hat and somehow I don't have any self-awareness anymore and at the same time I'm standing on the biggest stage of this country, then they also say, do you need attention or what? So of course I kept that for myself and of course my husband tells me and he also took that very seriously, thank God. But you don't want to fall into the burden. Yes, and you always have to, that's not very clear, and that's why I always tell you that there is the "economic paragraph" according to paragraph 12 of the social law book and that means that the performance that the doctor can bring must be competitive and must not exceed the necessary measure. And that means you're not allowed to hang dead over the fence. I don't feel so good and I don't feel as self-aware as I used to be on stage. - That's not enough. - That's not enough. And that's just, it's not a bad will of the doctors at all, but it's actually anchored in the social law in Germany. And it has to change from very, very above what I'm about to change so that I would then develop that. And I'm personally totally with you that I think, okay, if I can afford my latte macchiato frappé, blah, blah, blah for 7,80 Euro, then I can also go to the doctor once in a while and put 200 Euro on the table. Absolutely. Maybe at the end of the day to make such a positive, optimistic look forward, because what I always want to do is, yes, we have challenges, and in this case, she has half of humanity. And yet I don't want you to look at women from the age of 40 with such a slight, middle-aged look every time we drive out of their skin or are small in size, it's a bit like, yes, she's had a change of year, let her go. Maybe she'll get back on her feet at some point and he'll help you out. So we want to go through this second half of life with a strong, lustful and energetic look. And what do you see in positive indicators, especially medical or mental, that we will succeed much better than generations in front of us? I think it's totally good that more and more people are really going there with it. So yesterday I just saw a totally beautiful video by Halle Berry, where she's talking about change and also about what you just said. It's been a long time since you've closed the door. And when you said, I want to go to the post-menopause now, then you weren't actually available anymore. And now a lot of people are like, that's me and that's my hormones. And somehow that's nice. And if you pay attention to all these things, so if you have a really good diet and do a lot of sports and you pay attention to race control and resilience, maybe you don't get any complaints and you get through it totally well. And on the other hand, that you just have to make yourself clear, the whole thing doesn't have to be fate-like. Also, the weight gain in the course of years, the stress of the mood, the whole thing. It just doesn't have to be that. And we don't have to stop that either. So I think that's super important. When we wanted to get a washing machine, my great-grandmother didn't want to. Because that was the opinion, the rumbling board did it, too. And I think that's how we behave in relation to washing machines. That's how it is from nature. So we have to get through it. And the question is, why? Why do we have to suffer more than necessary if there is no reason for it at all? And if you pay attention to all these things at the end, what comes out of it, why is that? Why do we have washing machines at all? And that's probably because the woman after the change was a huge advantage for the human society. So what I increase is the empathetic ability, the ability to keep large groups in the eye, the ability to feel the mood of groups. These are all structures that are built more strongly after the change. Probably to take care of such a village community or such a large amount. And that can be used in today's world. And that we also recognize these values. And say, "We are no longer valuable for anyone, because we are no longer sexy hexes, but we bring very, very different qualities and values that, in my opinion, need humanity very, very urgently." Oh, what a nice final word. And what an unexpected thing when it comes to change, that there is eventually a ability that needs the world more than ever, namely to find the common, to emphasize and to keep an eye on it as the spreader. So, dear Simone, that was a fantastic ride through this very complex topic. I wish every woman out there that she had no symptoms and listened to us here. And then at some point she said, "It was great, but it didn't affect me. How nice." For all those who are like me, who somehow notice that something is changing. And I would like to stay myself or at least support it a little bit. And as you said, Simone, I just had to go through it. I think today's episode has brought a lot. Thank you very much for being there. I thank you. I also thank you very much. And yes, I just want to thank you very much for the whole topic. Bye! Yes, that was my third solo episode again. And if you want to hear more about the topic of changes, but also longevity and all the other exciting topics that Dr. Simone Koch is talking about, then definitely subscribe to her newsletter. I'm doing the show notes here. And next Thursday, Lea and I are together again at the start and have a very close guest, psychologists and partherapists. And we are talking to you about a topic that concerns many, but hardly anyone speaks openly, namely the topic of partherapy and how to get through crisis as a couple. And why helping is not a sign of failure. I am very happy about this conversation. And of course, when you hear it again, all the best and see you later.