We Visited Death Row for the Super Bowl. You Can Help Save This Fan's Life. (PTFO Vault)

Hey, Pablo here, and I just need to tell you that today we're re-earing. What might be the most important episode we've ever done on this show, which is the story of Charles Flores. And the reason we're re-earing this episode with this new intro that you're listening to for me is out of a truly desperate sense of urgency. Because on June 15th, the US Supreme Court released the results of its June conference. And the Supreme Court officially denied the petition, filed by Charles and his attorneys. And effectively refused to review his case without any comment, which means that Charles and his attorneys have exhausted all available legal avenues on both the state and federal levels, which we'll explain more about in this episode and in the post-crypt afterwards. But the thing I need you to know right now is that there is a very different petition that you can sign that would be extremely helpful to Charles Flores. And so we're going to link it in the show notes right now. It's not going to take very long for you to check out. And of course, time is of the essence, as you'll see. Welcome to Pablo Torre, finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is. Sooner or later, the truth is going to come out, and I'm going to have that opportunity to see life after this. Back when I was a magazine reporter, and this was many years before I locked myself inside the PTFO studio in New York City, I loved spending time on the road, just driving around this country. But one place I had never been before is a town in East Texas called Livingston. Livingston is the home of the Polonski unit, a supermax prison that is otherwise known as Texas's death row. You may recall that we sent PTFO correspondent Dave Fleming to this place back in October 2024, because we wanted Dave to find out about the apparently enormous role that football fandom plays for the inmates here. The men whose last words before state execution sometimes even wind up being shout out to their favorite NFL team, which, in a sense, says everything. Today, more than a year later, and ahead of Super Bowl Sunday, it is my turn to meet our guide to a fandom that is truly unlike any other. A remarkable inmate by the name of Charles Don Flores, a person you can hear right now as he's walking down the hall to the Polonski unit's visitation room, this surreal place with a painting of cookie monster on the wall behind me, an eerie Star Wars mural across the way, and a thick paint of glass which forever separates the inmates from their kids, their family, their visitors. Charles Flores spends almost all of his life at the Polonski unit in solitary confinement. But now, as we'll explain, he is running out of time, even though he never should have ended up in here, at all. It occurs to me that you spent 23 hours a day in solitary, and so you have an hour with me, and I am really grateful that you're taking the time. Thanks so much for caring, and for coming down here, and for taking interest in my situation. Because it's not just about me, it's about all the guys down here, right? I'm just one person out of almost 200 people down here. But the other reason I'm here, of course, is you're the publisher I find out official Dallas Cowboys correspondent. That's right. And so the first question that I have for you is, how about them Cowboys? Oh, man. How about them Cowboys? What happened? I think that they weren't able to adjust on defense. I think it come down to, they had some good players, but they didn't have the right players to fit the scheme that Eva Fluss was running. And then when they realized that and they tried to change it, it was like the position coaches didn't have them ready, and the biggest moments they felt when against Detroit, you know. They were playing 10 yards off the wide receiver off of James and Williams. The fastest dude on the field, you're going to give him 10 yards. He was gone. They were covering him with the safety. Come on, man. That'd be like me trying to cover it. Can I read you, can I read you the e-message that you sent us because I need to hold you to account as a guy with takes. You're referencing James and Williams referencing Maddie Bruffaloose, referencing the coaches. This is what you said May 2025. Quote. So in case you didn't hear, this is the year the Cowboys win another Super Bowl exclamation point. You heard it here first. And when it happens, remember I predicted it. I'm so pumped about the upcoming NFL season and college football too. End quote. Okay. And then some stuff happened. I was thinking about you on January 4th. Yeah. How did you feel in truth about playing the Giants last game of the season and what you wanted? After the Detroit game, I didn't want them to win another game because I wanted the top 10 pick, a top 8 pick, you know, to be able to get the player that they need. And if you ask me what they need, they need a big defensive end that can rush, you know what I'm saying? So they don't grow on trees. They're met at the top 10. You had one. You had one of those. He wasn't big enough. Like a person wasn't big enough. Yeah. If you ever watched, like for instance, whenever they would play the San Francisco 49ers, Trent Williams would put his handles on him and it was over. He'd eliminated him. But whenever he would play an elite defensive tackle like that, that happens to him because he's a linebacker. He's a linebacker size, right? Six, three, two, 50. You need six, five, two, 90 coming off that end, right? And so I loved Michael Parsons, but playing half of your salary to three guys would have been insane. We're just, we're, now we're doing, now we're doing, well, what have been insane. So, so we're doing a PTI now. We're debating now. You're on party interaction, you're on party. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? Michael Parsons wasn't big enough. Yeah. He's the best player on the team. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. I want to point out that you guys have the number 12 pick, the number 20 pick now. Yes. And you have a priority that you're placing on the future, on the long view of the next generation of Cowboys star. I think they've got to stay on defense. They can't get enamored with another offensive player, no matter who it is. You have to drive defense and you have to build from the inside out. You got to put that defensive in that big guy. You got to find him. You got to put him on there. And then with the 20th pick, get a linebacker. And then, Jerry Jones, you have to spend some money in free agency. You got it, yeah. Charles. Charles, it's a remarkable thing. It's a remarkable thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How much faith you have in this team despite it all. So, if you missed our original interview with Charles Flores, this is where I need to jump in to tell you why the state of Texas has plans to execute him and how I got interested in his case in the first place. In 1999, Charles got sentenced to death for the murder of Betty Black, a 64-year-old woman who was shot and killed during a break-in at her home, just outside of Dallas. But Charles, his worth noting, was never accused of being the person who shot Betty Black, or even carrying a weapon. In fact, there has never been any physical evidence linking him to the crime at all. What Charles was accused of, instead, was being a knowing participant in the murder and attempted robbery, to which Charles pleaded not guilty, maintaining to this day that he wasn't at the house in question at all. But how Charles Flores was still found guilty of capital murder, despite all of that, is what really blew my mind about his case, because it involves this video. The first thing I remember is when I looked out the window and I saw a car pulled up into the driveway. I remember it was a VW bug. And I'll remember seeing you guys get out. And I remember looking at the passenger as he got out and remembering the dark hair but basically the same as the drivers. - In the absence of physical evidence, what the state of Texas did was use a tactic called forensic hypnosis on the eyewitness in this video. This is the victim's neighbor, a woman named Jill Barganier. Jill Barganier had initially told police that she saw two white men, both with long dark hair, step out of a multicolored Volkswagen and head toward her neighbor's house. And in a photo lineup, Barganier picked out a tall white guy with long dark hair named Richard Childs as the driver. But Barganier did not identify Charles Flores, not initially. And then the forensic hypnosis happened. - Have you ever seen a document for your film? - Like on TV, I like those. With the animal kings in the show or, you know, what we're gonna do is, is when we get you into a deep state of hypnosis, we're gonna take you to a theater. It's gonna be your own private theater. And basically what it is, you're gonna be seeing in a documentary. And you're gonna be seeing the film of the events that occurred on that day, on that morning. Good. I'm gonna ask you to verbalize this. - I'll tell you more about the scientific absurdity of this tactic in a bit. But what you need to know right now is that if the trial of Charles Flores, more than a year later, Jill Barganier finally identified him as the passenger Richard Childs had been driving. Even though Charles, of course, has never looked like a tall white guy with long dark hair. And here's the kicker. In the state of Texas, there is something called the Law of Parties, which punishes knowing participants in a capital murder as if they, themselves, had fired the gun. Which is all to say that Charles Flores got sentenced to death in 1999 because a forensically hypnotized witness belatedly identified him as the passenger of the actual gunman, Richard Childs. Who, by the way, proceeded to strike a plea bargain admitting to being the killer once Charles got convicted. Which is how Richard Childs eventually got released on parole, back in 2016, 10 years ago now, while Charles remains trapped here, one of 161 men awaiting execution. - Can you describe the surroundings for people who are just hearing us talk? - Well, I'm a Texas death row prisoner, and we're at Polonsky Unit in the visitation room. - Yeah, I mean, you've been here for how long now? - 26 years. - Since '99. - '99. - And among the 161, are you one of the elder statesmen right now, or are you one of the vets? - Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want to, nothing to be proud of, I guess, but yeah, I've been here a long time, and so I am one of the old school cats here, and it's kind of funny because I've read that people are often, they stayed the age that they were inside their head when they were locked up. So I, you know, I got here, I'm 28, I think, I believe. And, and then a lot of times, I still think I'm 28, you know, and then when people, hey, whole school, what the hell is that full talking to? You know what I'm saying, but it's me. I'm 56 years old now, you know what I'm saying? So that is surreal, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of hard to comprehend, I guess. - What do you remember about America, the outside world in 1999? Where are the last things you remember? - I'll tell you an interesting story. In 1998, okay, that was the last time I was free. I had a cell phone, and it was the first digital cell phone that had come out, because before then, they were analog, okay? There were no text, there were no pictures, much less internet or anything. It was just clear, you know what I'm saying? And that was like state of the art. So I imagine that. - But now, how aware are you of all the things that have happened? - Oh man, it's just, it's just so, you know, remember, we didn't have TV. - Here? - Yeah, four, until what, 20, 20, 23? - TVs were only available in the Plunky Unit, starting three, two, three years ago. - Exactly. - Yes. - Just so you know how much of a football fan I am. The first thing that we got to watch was the chiefs beating the Eagles and the Super Bowl. - What did it feel like to watch the Super Bowl? - It was amazing, because back in the get in '98, they didn't have all the angles in all the ways to see the game. And to have that camera jumpin' around like that, it was just, it was almost like this concerted. We've never seen it, right? Now everybody's used to it, yeah, but why? It's amazing. - I mean, you tune back in, and suddenly, this is the thing that is the only thing that everyone can gather around is football. That's what's happened out here, is that football has only become the most important thing in America. - That's right, that's right. - And so we're talking, by the way, ahead of the Super Bowl. - Yes. - And so can you explain where the Super Bowl now ranks among events here? - Okay, so it's probably a revolving thing. Christmas Thanksgiving, Super Bowl. But let me tell you, if the Texans make it, Super Bowl's gonna be number one, you know? Because the biggest population back there are the guys from Houston. - Yeah. - I don't know about CJ Shroud, but man, that defense is scary. And you remember the Baltimore team that won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilford? - Yeah. - You remind me of that. Didn't watch it, but I listened to it, right? - I was gonna say, you were listening to this. - You were listening to it, yeah. They had Jamal, what it was? Was Jamal Anderson was running back? - It was Jamal Lewis. - Lewis? - Okay, I knew it was Jamal. - All Anderson Falcons running back. Jamal Lewis Ravens running back. - Yeah, you remember they had a run game. - Yeah. - And they had a quarterback who was just in. - Yeah. - Yeah, you can hear that. You can hear him just being in. As you were following the game. - So can you remind us just like how you watched the game? There's a TV now. - Yeah. - And so just you're, again, in Solid 3, 23 hours a day and you have these, I mean, you're into some M-Box. - That's right. - You're trying to use some M-Box, steel doors, but there's like an opening where you're just like watching the communal television out in the hall, basically. - Yes, yeah. - So I met, the sale is nine foot wide, 12 foot long. At the front of the sale, I have a door that's about waist height. They have two cutouts, three inches wide, and then about three foot tall. - I see. - And it's not glass, it's this wire, okay? They don't have glass in it. So that allows the sound to come in a lot better and you know, we can talk and all that. - But you're watching through the little diamonds on like the chain link wire, basically. - Exactly. - So I have some legal work that I make a make shift like stool, and it's about the size of the chair or the stool that I'm sitting on. - Right, your paper is from your case, now decades long, is now big enough to be tall. (laughing) - Yeah, right, you're just, gosh, I believe it. - So when I'm watching TV, when I'm watching football, I have my stool at the front of the sale, and I'm sitting, you know, about this close. And I usually have a book that I put on the sink, and that's my light in table. So I have my drink there, maybe if I have chips or whatever, not jose or whatever, you know what I'm saying? They're there. And then like, some of the place first down, and you know, and they run the ball, I'm just sitting here. But like, if it's third and 10 or whatever, I get up. - Yeah, I get up, and I'm looking through that diamond. I'm watching 'cause I'll have to get as close as I can. - Right, you can get on the stack of papers now. - Yeah, yeah, but when it's time to really watch, you gotta get it very close. - You're putting your, you're making a diamond dip with your hands, and you're looking right through it. - Yeah, and you're actually looking through one of these squares, you know, one and then, yeah, focusing in on that. And the TV, the TV is probably, or less from here to the blue wall, on the bit behind the machines. So there's a row of bending machines behind me, and there's a blue wall right there. - 25, 30, 30 foot away, so look at that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But where I'm at, I'm in the face-based program, and we've got a 50 inch TV. It's like one of the perks, and it's on the wall. So I can see it pretty good. - Right, do that little diamond, you can see. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm blessed to be that's blessed. - Well, it's this thing that sports allows. - Yes. - That I really want to understand because the Super Bowl comes around, and it's this holiday, and I imagine there are rituals here. - Yes. - Like food, like how does that work on Super Bowl Sunday? - Remember, when you're sent to prison, you're taken away from your people. You're taken away from your clan. You're taken away from everything that you know and you love, and you agree with, and then you're put here. And then so like, being a fan of something, that's part of being in society. society. And even though we're locked away, being a fan, me being a cowboy fan of the brothers back there, you know, being super hype about the Houston Texans, that's their connection to one of the connections to the free world, right? And so that's why everybody is so invested in it because it's not just them. It's mom at home, it's dad at home, it's the brothers when you call home, that's all they're talking about. That's all we're talking about. And you were just so hype, you know what I'm saying? So the Super Bowl is a big deal. And so everybody will make some type of Super Bowl feast, some type of big, big meal, right? And for me, remember that the Super Bowl is in, is in the late afternoon, so you know, it starts about five, thirty, six o'clock, right? So I'll probably make some partiser, nachos or something, you know, and we buy everything that we cook. It's already pre-cooked from the prison commissary. And the prison commissary is just imagining that that's our grocery store. You buy a big bag of tortilla chips, right? You buy a bottle of squeezed cheese and you buy a chili with bean that's in like a microwavable pack. And the key is you got to know how to mix them. So what's Charles Flora's secret to mixing all that stuff? If I tell you, I'm not the Chargy. I can tell that you're the guy who knows the secret recipe here. Yeah, yeah, by my size, I'm sure you get that. I wasn't gonna say it. But the idea that you guys are all celebrating the Super Bowl individually, but together. But together, because remember, I imagine like you see these, these books here. You know, imagine there's a dude in each one. Yeah, and we're all at the front. We're all there. So I can talk to the guy here. I can talk to the guy next to him. I can talk to the guy at the end if I shout loud enough. Yeah. This is just like if you're at home because when the commercial comes on or whatever, you know, that's where like, man, did you see this play? How about the, you know, that guy's playing good or CJ Stroud, man, don't throw the ball again. Just run, you know? When they go to sack, you just go down, you know? But the idea that you're hearing stuff, I want to actually understand like, you know, listen to the radio when you first get in here. You know, I think about this because the World Cup's coming up this year. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I know you're a soccer guy. Yeah. And so can you explain like how soccer fandom has worked in here and how you first started like, you know, tuning in. You know, that's amazing because in the free world, I really soccer was in the thing. And so I really didn't pay attention to it. But when I got here, when you come to prison, bro, when you come in and it's a new environment and it's potentially dangerous, you're looking for the people that look like you. The white guy didn't go sit with the black guys. No, the white guys goes over there and sits with the white guys, right? When the Mexican guy comes in, he's not going to the white guys. He's not going to the black guys. He's going to the Mexican guy. You know, the Latinos that look like him, you know? And I've always been the type of type of guy that I'm I'm proud of being a Latino. I'm proud that my people are, you know, Americans of Mexican descent. I'm proud that I know Spanish and and being able to communicate with the brothers that might not know English very well. Well, it also means you could listen to the better version of the broadcast. Exactly. And so that's where I was going. That's where I'm going. And so with them, they're talking about it. We used to listen to the Mexican national team on a scratchy little AM station out of Houston. And and they broadcasted all the games and especially the World Cup, the goal cup, you know, Cup of America, all that in Spanish. And when I listened to that, it blew my mind, right? And I loved it. I loved it. And I got I got into following the sport, right? Well, they're having so much more fun. Yes. The Spanish language broadcasters are enjoying their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was to wonder are they are they drinking beer up there? Once you hear it, it's hard to it's hard to go. It's hard to go about. It's interesting, right? Because for the most part, not a lot of guys fall or soccer here. But I think it's going to it's that's going to change when we're going to finally get to watch it. We didn't get to watch the last World Cup. Of course, right? Yeah. Every four years. Right now, this time we will. Well, I know one of your dreams was to get to see the World Cup. Because finally in North America. The question of what you're hoping for and what you're dreaming about. I want to establish that like you specifically are the reason that I've been tracking this practice that I didn't know existed called forensic hypnosis. And so the fact that this thing existed for so long and the fact that you have been a a name and a face that's popped up in the coverage of the story over time. Yes. Like the last decade of the practice of police hypnosis, which is a real thing that exists in America. The last decade, it tracks alongside your last decade of hoping and appealing and trying to see if you could actually get out of here. And so I just want to go back to 2016 because in 2016, I'm just looking at the notes I've written down here. Yes. I mean, you were days away from execution. Five days. Can you just describe what it was like to be five days away from the day? It was surreal. So it's one of those situations you got to be there. You got to you got to bring this cell next to me to experience that right. But I'll do my best. I remember the last visit before I got my state of execution because I got five days away and it was a Friday and my mom and my my brother had come to visit me. And if that wasn't enough, my father had died two weeks before my schedule execution. And so I was so traumatized. I wasn't numb. I couldn't feel them. One of the terms, it was up there. I couldn't feel that. But I remember that I had to be strong for my mother. I had to be the one that encouraged and gave hope. And so instead of having a bunch of people console me, I was the one that was talking about, well, man, it's not over yet. It's not over yet. Because that's how I felt. That's what it was. And I remember telling her that the the the appeal that was filed on the hypnosis stuff because I'd had a whole string of attorneys before that telling me that that was not a claim. I I couldn't I couldn't use it. It had been settled in the court before yada yada yada yada yada yada right. In a sense of me, they're telling me, no, your ass is dead, your fixing or die. All you got left is meditation. And in Texas, it's the right. You know what I'm saying? If you're counting on hypnosis to to save you, it's over. But we had this claim. It came up at the last minute and I had a new attorney that was helping me. He was a professor at American University. And so it was him and a class of third-year law students that were able to put this appeal together in about 45 days and follow it. And I remember when I got it, I sat down and I read it. Then I read it again. Then I read it a third time. And I knew that it was the best appeal that had been filed for me. And if the court heard I'd get to stay. And I might walk out this place. You know, at that time, I thought that would be the one that would get me out of here. And so fast forward to that visit. And I told my mother, I said, mom, just imagine like we're at the casino in Las Vegas. And we're betting the farm. We're going to bet everything that we got on this appeal. And if we win, I'm going to get out of here. And if we lose, well, I'll see you in heaven, you know. But believe me, I've got hope because this is the best appeal that was ever filed. I mean, so that was the mindset that's what I had in my mind. I wasn't so much thinking about myself. I was thinking about my parent, my mom, who just lost my dad. I knew if that executed me, it's OK. Killer, you know what I'm saying? That was the level, the stakes in my situation. And what happened next on May 27th, 2016, five days before the state of Texas was scheduled to kill Charles Flores, really needs to be heard to be believed. Because what Charles just said is true. His legal team had filed an appeal with newfound hope. The practice of forensic hypnosis had long been criticized as fundamentally flawed, if not just outright absurd, given that it really is what it sounds like. The police hypnotizing a person like the previously mentioned eyewitness, Jill Bargaineer, so that they can supposedly recall traumatic events with supposedly greater clarity. - This will act. I'm gonna ask you to concentrate on focus on the timing, on the hundred iron little muscles that are on the bottom of your feet. Three, two, one, one's zero. - But what Charles's lawyers did with the clock ticking down was build their case around the state's 2013 junk science law, Texas State article 11.073. And they had this memory expert, named Dr. Stephen Lynn, testify that the hypnosis of Jill Bargaineer was done horribly wrong. Likely creating a false memory of a person, Charles Flores, whose face had been plastered all over the news in the months after he got arrested, which now brings us back to what happened on Friday, May 27th, 2016. This was hours after Charles's mom, who had just been visiting him, maybe for the last time, had driven away. I didn't find out about it till like nine o'clock. And I found out about it on the radio. - The exact same radio that he had used to listen to NFL broadcasts and soccer games in Spanish. - And that's surreal. When you hear, hey, you know, public Tory, death row prisoner has been given a state of execution. You're like, whoa, you know, it's like, is this a movie? What's going on? You heard it in your cell. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard it on the radio. - On the radio. And thanks to the archive of KPFT 90.1 FM in Houston, which broadcasts a program every Friday called The Prison Show, where the hosts give updates on inmates' cases, you can now hear this too. - I am so excited, guys. So excited, get up and jump up. Charles gotta stay. Charles got a stay. Get up and tell everyone. I'm gonna read what Greg and I put out. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals state Charles's execution date based on Dr. Stephen Lynn's affidavit that the only eyewitness identification of Charles was tainted by hypnosis session that was performed without dated science. The hypnosis session likely caused a false memory of Charles and a false identification because the information is newly discovered and likely would have resulted in an acquittal if Charles was tried today. The Court of Criminal Appeals remanded the case back to the trial court for further hearings on the junk science used to admit the hypnosis altered memory of Charles. Charles will seek to get a new trial through these hearings. He gotta say, guys, we're happy. Thanks, Dave. - And I wouldn't only want everybody hard to say. - I was gonna say, and everybody's happy. - But that happiness, that cinematically joyous hope that Charles's case would finally get a retrial. It did not last. In 2017, the state rejected the appeal of Charles Don Flores. And in 2020, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the ruling. And this is the point in the story where things get even crazier. Because in 2023, in recognition of all of the criticisms we've already mentioned here, which were extensively investigated incidentally by the Dallas Morning News, Texas passed a new law, a law specifically banning hypnosis-induced evidence from being used in criminal trials. There was sort of a shock wave that went through Texas about wait, are we really allowing law enforcement to hypnotize witnesses? - This is the person who's represented Charles, pro bono since 2016. His lawyer, Gretchen Swin. - And it was big embarrassment for the Texas Rangers, who were sort of the biggest trainers in this technique. And now the law has changed. It is no longer lawful to admit the fruits of a hypnosis session. So if you wanna do that, fine, but you're not gonna get then what comes out of that in front of the jury. And that is true in most jurisdictions in this country. - But as tremendous as this news seemed for Charles Flores, there was a confounding and infuriating catch. - Charles wasn't able to benefit from this law. There's no retroactive provision here. So a law, inspired by his case, reflecting a clear sense of, you know, outrage hasn't benefited a guy on death row. - All of which, in our view, is profoundly, profoundly (beep) - It's not an earth's wreck, if you didn't apply, it doesn't apply. - To the past. So it gets even worse. You know, we had an emergency situation where Attorney General wanted to set an execution date. This last frame, and it was a miracle we were able to follow in a pill. And then that appeal had for the first time, all of the hypnosis information in it. - You heard that right. In May, 2025, about seven months after our original episode with Charles aired, the state of Texas attempted to set an execution date for him. A legal letter even circulated, listing several available dates in November, 2025. And Gretchen, at this point, his lawyer, immediately filed a petition claiming that this move was unlawful. And then, in June, she filed a new set of affidavits with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. And this included new expert declarations that cast even more doubt on the integrity of the original conviction. - So we had new claims, new audits, we also had a great sworn statement from his original trial lawyer, who basically said, "If I had known any of this, I would have been outraged "and describing just the pressures he was under, "the what was kept from him, "how they weren't even given any discovery "till they were already in the middle of trial, "and this was standard practice." And that he looked back on his own reaction to this and took responsibility for some of his own choices that were harmful to his client, and also expressed his real outrage that this case is where it is, and that Charles has not been given a new trial. And that's pretty amazing stuff. - Except that by October of 2025, several months later, that petition got dismissed, procedurally barred. - Without explanation. So what this decision was was that we're not going to look at the merits of this client, not even look at it. And it's devastating. I get a notice, it's what's called a postcard notice. So there's not even an opinion. It's just you get a notice saying that something was denied. And it's really hard thing to convey to a client that they brought very sincerely all this stuff to a court that is just saying we're not looking at that. And what I really came here to hear from you was what it's like to feel like you're not being hurt. - That almost killed me. Again, it was like, I think that the danger, right? That a guy on death row has to deal with is allowing himself to believe that he might get out of here. And so you sit yourself up for a fall. You know you sit yourself up for a disappointment. And again, because it's like ground hold day, 'cause I get these pills and I read it. And I'm like, man, this is amazing. - I'm reading it and I'm thinking the same thing, like this makes a ton of sense. - And then when you think about it, again, Gretchen, my attorney, she wrote that in like about two weeks and it was like everything fell. So it was like a blessing from the good Lord. I mean. How else can all of this stuff just fall in line? We've been working for five years to try to find an issue so we can follow another appeal. I've been in limbo back and forth. And so, bam, it happens. And I allow myself to hope, and I allow myself to think about, man, I might just get to see that world cup. I might just get to be watching Dallas Cowboys. You know, I'm allowed myself to imagine my life after death row. I actually allowed myself to think about what I wanted to do when I get out of here. What I want to do is I'm going to take an extended trip. And what kind of music would I be listening to when I'm on the trip? So I let myself think about that. I let myself go there, right? And then in October, on October 4th, you know, bam. It was, the dream was destroyed. And like I said, it almost killed me. I'm still not over it. I got a smile on my face, I'm laughing. But, man, you know, I'm just, and I didn't know about the playlist. - All right. - Do you know what song is the first song? Do you have a specific song you're trying to, that you've imagined? - The first one that I put down was the song, the road goes on forever, and the party never ends. And it's a story song. And it's about a guy and a girl. You know the song? - Can you give me a little? - Now you put me on this pop. And what the song is about, let me try to give you the background is, it's a guy and a girl, they meet in a bar, and he was kind of a, a mess up like me. I tried to go to the Navy, but he couldn't pass it to us. So he started, he got involved in, dealing contraband, and then the cops got on him, and they sent him to the pin. When he got back out, he was back at it again. ♪ In a house just off the roof ♪ ♪ With the briefcase full of money ♪ ♪ And a pistol in his boot ♪ - So he meets the girl, they drive to Miami, and they run out of money. The guy has an idea, he knows some other guy, the dealing contraband. So he goes to make the deal, he's got the money, they've got the product. And as that's going down, the cops run in. When he's getting away, he runs to the bathroom, jumps off the back window, there's the cop. And as he's reading him, his ride to the girl comes around and is struck with a single shot, 14. And the road goes on forever, and the party never ends. And later on that night, he gives her all the money, and he tells her, when the cops catch up to you, tell them that I'll put you up to this. And then the story ends, I think it's 21 months later, she reads that he's going to the chair. ♪ Shared by the paper ♪ ♪ And a cold six pack of beer ♪ ♪ The headlines read that's sunny ♪ ♪ Is going to the chair ♪ ♪ She pulled back on the main street ♪ ♪ And her numerous sadies, bins, the road goes on forever ♪ ♪ And the party never ends ♪ As she gets in her brand new Mercedes-Benz, the road goes on forever, and the party never ends. So yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty, pretty dramatic song. It's great though, right? Yeah, it's great, it's great, it's great. (upbeat music) I wanna fill people in on this, like as time is wearing thin here, we have this place to ourselves, it's empty. And there are other people here who are scheduled, who are on the docket for execution. When I believe someone soon is scheduled, what's it like in here as that gets closer? Does the air change, does what does that feel like? So, when you get up, when you're given an active execution date, there's two death rolls, there's the death roll where the majority of the guys are there, and it's like suspended animation almost, because you don't have the active execution date, right? So you're going through the appeals process, that's running. So you're kinda quote, safe. You're really never safe here, but you allow yourself to believe this, 'cause I'm not gonna die next month or six months from now, or next year, you know, whatever, however. Then there's the other death roll, which is the true death roll, which is you have an active execution date. And when you have the execution date, you're put on death watch, and it's a section of sales, seven on the bottom, seven on the top, for all the guys that have this pending execution date are housed. And in these sales, they have a camera in the corner. So they're monitoring you, they're watching you 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So make sure you don't hurt yourself, so you'll be alive in time for them to murder you, understand? And so there, I think, what is it? Five, four or five guys over there right now. When I. Death Watch is on my part, this is a section. This is B section. This is C section. I live in C section, my cell is there. A section is death watch. So when I come through today, on the way up out here, Busby was in the Darrell. Eddie Lee is what we call it. So I'll handle that one. What's up, Eddie Lee? He's a cowboy fan too, just so you know. So yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's always a reminder. He's over there, you know, because sometimes, you know, you get caught up in your own thing. You're doing your own thing. So that reality will slip away. When you're over there with them, you can't get away from it. You understand what I'm saying? You can't get away from that. 'Cause you're the one with the dead, you know, everybody's around you's got the dead. You look up, there's that camera watching you. He can't get away from that. I want to be clear about this again for people. The man who played guilty, who confessed to shooting Betty Black is free. That's right. You got out on probation? Yeah, 10 years. And you're still here. And I'm wondering if you ever imagine what he's doing now. I try not to think about things that upset me. I work real hard at staying peaceful and positive. And yeah, if I start thinking about that, I imagine that might upset me a little bit. Get angry and I used to, and my younger days, I think I used to enjoy being angry and acting out. Now, it's like the thing that I dislike the most. I hate not being in control of myself. And so, with anger, because, like, for anger with me, man, once I start getting angry, it's like, I'm hanging on to a rope and I can't, I can't, I can't grab it. And it's just slipping away, slipping away. And once I get angry, it's over. So, that's just something, something that I've learned in as I've matured in life. And so, yeah, I don't think about that kind of thing. I think about positive things instead, you know? I hadn't thought about how the thing you can control and you've worked on controlling for decades is the one thing you can, which is how you choose to feel. Yeah, but when did that occur to you that this was gonna be something that you take pride in being disciplined about? It's interesting because that goes with the spiritual journey that I started, man, 20 years ago, right? And just I had to, I knew that I had to learn to control myself. It took me about five, maybe eight years to get to the point where I was like, man, I had a problem. Now, a problem led me to being in this cell and I can't control, I can't control my reactions. And that's, that's emphasis on reactions. Something would happen and I would react. I couldn't, I wouldn't think of the consequences. I couldn't wait, well, man, if you do this, you know, you're gonna get in trouble, you know? And so, so it couldn't be able to do that. And it's interesting because at that point in my life, I started hearing a bunch about meditation. I was reading about meditation. I was hearing about meditation on the radio. Everywhere I turned, it seemed like meditation was coming at me. And I was like, "I wanna. " learned how to meditate. And I did. And with the help of friends and people sending me books and that kind of thing, that was the key. That was the key of putting space between the awareness that is me and my ego, which is pride, which is anger, which is all of those things. And the more you meditate, the more the space is in, is in between that, right? And that was what gave me the, the handle on control. And is that, that makes sense? It's, it's frankly the only thing that explains how you could be a Cowboys fan this time. Well, see, I'm going to disadvantage. Who's your team? The Browns. The Steelers. The Shells laughing. I grew up a Giants fan. The Cowboys Whippin' Boy. Okay. So January 4th, by the way, you have a side of that story, which I did not disclose until now, is that of course the New York Giants beat your ass. And for that reason, no longer have the number one overall. I can be on the other side. One to five. Congratulations. This is, this is, this is the irony, right? The irony is that out here in the free world, as you've called it, the Giants were like, we got to get this win now. And meanwhile, you in here have the right logical, but paradoxical view. If anyone were to have this view of like, we're playing for the future. It's right. We want these picks. We want, you got it. You got to have it like that. And I just want to make sure that I give you the opportunity to tell people what you wish for them to hear, because you're still fighting this thing. There are some Hail Mary's left. There's also, hopefully, a conversation that keeps going about how it is that a guy who has always maintained his innocence, who had zero pieces of physical evidence, DNA, or anything, at the scene of the crime, who was only put in to the Plonsky Unit because of a debunked forensic hypnosis procedure that you can watch on tape and is mind-blowing to revisit. What, what Charles Don Flores would like them to hear? Well, I know this much. Suffering is universal. Victimhood is optional. Victimhood is being stuck is rigor mortis of the mind. It's being stuck and past slights, past disrespects, past traumas. And it doesn't let you go. The reason that people embrace victimhood, that we embrace victimhood is because it gives you the right to feel like you had the audacity to do that to me. And I'm so grateful that I've gotten to the age and the maturity that I know the difference. And so again, suffering's universal stuff happens. And I keep taking these losses. I keep having these traumatic events happen to me. But in the end, I believe in good. I believe in a higher power. I believe in that sooner or later the truth's going to come out. And I'm going to have that opportunity to see life after this. And in the meantime, I'm like, when these things happen, I'm just like, man, that hurt. Okay. What's next? And when I'm able to do that, they're not torturing me. They're not making me suffer in a way that I think some people who do support the death penalty want you to because it's not enough for them just to murder you, right? Take your life. They want you to suffer before. And so that's how I deal with that. And with regards to my case, man, I just want a fair review. I just want a fair shot. The Dallas County prosecution office, the Dallas DA, they have a convictions integrity unit. And I want them to look at my hands. I want them to review the case. Give it a look. Let the evidence speak for itself. And you come to the conclusions because until now they don't want to do that. They refuse to look at it. And they are totally and completely in control on whose case they look at. It's my understanding that the head prosecutor in Dallas, he doesn't understand that I have an actual innocence claim. He doesn't know that. And I want him to know that. This is not just a technicality thing, right? That I'm trying to just get off on on some type of rule. No. I'm innocent. I can prove it. Let the evidence speak for that. Look at it. Look at it. And I think if that, if we're able to get there, well, then I'm going to be able to take that trip one day. I don't look forward to it, brother. Charles, I really hope that your road continues. And I hope to to see you out there, man. Got it out. Maybe we can go to the giant cowboy game together. God, you're going to be insufferable. So if this were a normal episode of Pobletauri finds out, that would be the ending. I think we would choose to go out on this laugh, yet another laugh from a guy who can find joy, apparently, who can control his emotions as he explained, despite what his government is actively trying to do to him. But that's not exactly what happened as the clock on our hour together took down to zero. What I saw was the guards of the Polensky Unit, escorting Charles back into solitary, back into a cell in C section where this innocent man continues to await execution for a crime he did not commit. And I need to be clear, Charles has now exhausted all available avenues within the state of Texas now. His lawyer, Gretchen, she's going to petition the United States Supreme Court tomorrow, February 6th, but things are looking bleak. And so what we have for you in the show notes of this episode is a petition. And I really hope you can sign it. It's at actionnetwork.org/petitions/charls, or you can just click on that link. And our goal is to make sure that people continue to hear his story. That's all we can really ask for here is for people to give a sh*t. And there's also a song. It is a song by Robert Earl Kean. And I keep listening to it. In honor of a super fan who is dreaming of finally queuing up a playlist and leaving the Polensky Unit and driving away. [Music] So something I need you to know here at the end as a quick post script is that the list of supporters who have stood up to speak on behalf of Charles Flores. It's been kind of astonishing. There is a brief from the American Psychology Association, which pointed out how deeply unreliable the eyewitness identification at the heart of this case happens to be. There's also a brief filed by the magician's pen and teller who expressed their unequivocal belief that hypnosis is completely bogus. But because the US Supreme Court denied the petition filed by Charles and his attorneys, as we mentioned earlier, and because Charles cannot yet apply for clemency, which could grant not exoneration and freedom, but a life sentence instead of death until after an execution date is set, what happens next lies mostly in the hands of the Dallas County District Attorney, a guy named John Cruzo. It would be up to John Cruzo, in other words, to formally request that the trial judge, in Charles's case, set an execution date. But there is something else under the control of the Dallas County DA. It turns out something called the Conviction Integrity Unit, which is pretty much what it sounds like. A special division of the DA's office that is tasked with reviewing credible claims of innocence or official misconduct. And yet, somehow, through this point, the C.I.U. has refused to review Charles's case. And so, what I need you to understand here is the glimmer of hope that it still exists on the horizon. Because in January, a new Dallas County DA takes office, a woman named Amber Givens. Amber Givens won a decisive victory over John Cruzo in the Democratic primaries, back in March of this year. And this means that John Cruzo now has about six months left to decide how he wants to leave the seat he has occupied since 2019. And whether he wants to request that the C.I.U. finally review Charles's claims of innocence. And if he does not, it is possible that his replacement, Amber Givens, could. And so, if you want to encourage Amber Givens or John Cruzo to take action, we urge you to sign the petition we mentioned at the top, that is in the show notes. Because public pressure of this kind is really all we have left. In the meantime, what I can tell you is that we have continued to exchange emails with Charles. He reached out, for instance, on June 17th, just two days after that news came down from the Supreme Court. But Charles did not mention that ruling. And he didn't ask us for anything. He never does. Instead, Charles congratulated the staff of PTFO on winning a Pulitzer. And he told us that he's been watching the World Cup. Because of course he has. He's been feeling connected to everyone in the outside world through sports. And he's been watching as many matches as he can. This has been Pablo Torre, finds out a metal-lark media production. And I'll talk to you next time.