We've Never Been Meaner. Here's Why.

Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, like civility has left the building. So what is going on? The environment around us has changed and it's triggering us to be mean. I was so surprised to read this, that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. And you've had things thrown at you is what I'm saying. Oh, 100%. A patient broke my nurse's hand. There's something about flying that seems to bring out just the worst in people. What's the worst thing somebody said to you? I had a gentleman that said to me, I violate women like you. Wow. So what is the path forward? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are going to get better? I mean, I have lots of answers to that. I know you do. Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining me on the Oprah podcast. A heartfelt welcome to this audience. Who all look so great and worked on looking great this morning. Congratulations to yourselves. Really impressed. I had a conversation on this podcast, actually, with Kristen Cabot. Many of you may have seen it. She's the woman who was on that Coldplay kiss cam video that went viral all over the world. So viral. I mean, when they told me that it had 300 billion views, I couldn't believe it because I was like, well, there's only 8 billion people on the planet. How does 300 billion people see it? Apparently, people were passing it around and sharing it and sharing. And she told me about the, just the deluge of vitriol that was directed at her online, which obviously was bad enough. But people also had the nerve, after her address was put on the radio, to drive by her house and even walk up to her in public, in front of her children to verbally attack her, just saying mean, awful things. And of course, as we talked about on that show, she even received death threats. Okay. And I feel so strongly, y'all can say what you want, but I feel strongly that she did not deserve that on any level for being out with her boss. Okay. So after talking with Kristen, I kept wondering what is happening to us in this world? Have y'all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, right? Like civility has left the building. And then I found out I'm not alone in feeling this way. Take a look. Y'all, I just got on a target and I'm about to lose my freaking mind. People are so rude. What's wrong with people? We have lost all sense of humanity and compassion. We have. We've lost it. I don't understand mean people. I don't understand how you wake up in the morning and your first thought is, how do I be as mean as possible today? Can't stand mean people. Go to therapy. Take a pottery class. Go hug a tree. I don't know, but sort out your issues. I mean, like people don't hold doors anymore. They don't say, please, thank you. You're welcome. People don't care how they speak to you, how they make you feel. Everybody's just so insensitive and I can't understand what happened. Like what made everybody like this? Yeah, that's exactly what we're saying. We're asking today. So, you know, there's a recent study that found that 53% of Americans believe that society is uncivil. More than a third say that they almost always or often see people behaving rudely when they go out in public. And to help us understand what is at the root of this, I'm joined by Dr. Jay Van Bavel. Now he says, I can call him Dr. Jay. Yeah. You're the other one. The other one. So that's what we're going to be doing today. Dr. Jay is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at New York University and the director of the NYU Center for Conflict and Cooperation. He's also the co-author of The Power of Us. The Power of Us. Great title, right? The Power of Us. Harnessing our shared identities to improve performance, increase cooperation, and promote social harmony. Thank you so much for having me, Oprah. So what is going on? I'm a social psychologist. So what that means to me is what in our environments have changed. Because. A social psychologist means you study this stuff. Yeah, I study this stuff. I do research on this and have been studying it for 20 years. And the main lesson when you see this is not that humans have become meaner. Human nature has not really changed in the last decade or more. It has not. It has not. And so when you see people becoming meaner to one another, including online, what you have to understand is that the environment around us has changed. And it's triggering us to be mean and lack a sense of civility towards one another. Okay, so if it's triggering us to be mean, that means they've become meaner. Our behavior has become meaner. Our human nature has not changed. And so what that means is. We're basically good? Well, we can be better. If you change the environment, people will be less mean. So people are being mean because of the environment? Yes. Okay, explain that. Okay. So there's lots of reasons why people are being mean. There's lots of reasons why people become mean or lack civility. One of it is when you're under stress. So like when people are struggling financially, that is something that can trigger them to lash out more. They're under a lot of cognitive distress when that's happening. They're thinking about it all the time. They have a hard time regulating themselves. So that's kind of what's bubbling up from a lot of people. They're facing stressors in their own life that have increased. But this isn't the first time in the world that people have faced stressors. I mean, people went through the depression, and people were stressed. And they're still kind to each other and trying to help their neighbors and had the attitude of, like, if you're in trouble, then your family's in trouble. We're going to help your family. I mean, okay, so. Okay, so you're 100% right. So we've faced these other stressors before and haven't acted this way. Okay, so the stressors are increasing, but then what's happening in our social environment? And the things that are happening is there's less of a sense of us, a sense of common connection and purpose. And so people are more disconnected and isolated. They're more isolated than ever. They're rewarded for that when they go online. There's not really a strong sense of treating somebody who's different than you as part of your community. And then the other thing is that our norms have eroded, that we see other people acting like this, and that makes it more acceptable for us to do it. And so when you tell about the story of Kristen Cabot, no one might have done that. But once they see, you know, tens or hundreds or thousands of other people mocking her, ridiculing her, shaming her, they feel an urge to do it too. Partly it's because human nature is we look to other people like us to see what they're doing, and then we do the same thing. So is it also because of, I mean, social media gets blamed for a lot of things, but is it also because of the anonymity involved in social media that you can say mean things, act however you want to act, and nobody actually knows who you are? Yeah, it's a few things in social media. So one of it is you can be really mean as an anonymous person. You control others. And some people do that. But a lot of people are actually doing it under their own name from their own accounts. And part of the reason they do it is because one of the things that gets rewarded on social media is expressing moral outrage. Yeah. And so some people are feeling moral outrage. They're projecting their own issues into the situation. But other people are seeing the outrage and feeling like, oh, I better express mine so I signal that I'm a good person. That's where you start to get the pylon where you say 300 billion people saw it, and there's this massive pylon. It's because of all of these things, it's kind of getting amplified. And then you have technology, the algorithms are amplifying whatever's driving engagement. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that a celebrity, this is Doja Cat, recently was talking about Timothee Chalamet and then later posted that she shouldn't have been talking about Timothee Chalamet. Did you all see that post? She then said, you know, I shouldn't have even been posting about that because what I really needed was a hug. Yeah. And what I really needed was, you know, and that she was doing it. And she was doing that to show her moral outrage because she thought she would get a lot of people who would be supporting that. And I thought that was really brave of her, insightful of her, and a really great sense of self-awareness to actually say that. Because most people do it and they don't even know that's why they're doing it. Exactly. Yeah. They either don't know that's why they're doing it or they don't want to admit it. Yes. So you say that life in America today is like being a child in a family, where the parents are constantly fighting. And I remember many years ago hearing an expert say that when you fight in front of your children, you change who they are. Yes. So how is that affecting us if we are like a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting? Yeah. Okay. So what we're talking about there is the psychological impact and the stress that causes on kids. And so when kids are in a home where the parents are fighting all the time, it causes them stress. You can measure it. You can measure it in their physiology. But also they become very sensitive to anything that might be distressing in their environment. They see threats that might not even be there. And so they're hyper-attuned to potential threats. And so when you live in a universe where the parents are always fighting with one another, that causes us stress, but it also makes us hypersensitive to seeing threats in our environment. And the reason we feel that way is because we're surrounded by it everywhere, right? You turn on the news and it causes a sense of tension. And even though you're in a home where the parents are fighting all the time, You don't think you're taking it in. it allows you to be stressful. It's not only stressful, but then it's a role model. So one of the big things we talk about with parents is how they become good role models. If our leaders in society are acting like that, then also we are more likely to think it's acceptable ourselves. Absolutely. So I understand that there's a new Stanford study found that AI chatbots are actually making people behave worse in real life. How is that possible? Okay, so we just talked about social media as one technology and engagement-based algorithms amplifying this. Okay, so now let's talk about the new technology. Yes. The fastest growing technology in human history is artificial intelligence. Just out of curiosity, how many people here have talked to a chatbot? Okay, so you have like 90, 80% of people in this room. Chatbots are also designed to keep us engaged. And so one of the features this new study found that you mentioned is that they are 50% more sycophantic and more sycophantic. than real humans. So if you're interacting with a chatbot, it's going to tell you you're brilliant, you're right. Okay, so what is the consequences of that? We've heard about these delusions and mental health spirals from people, but it can actually harm our relationships. Yeah. So the study that you mentioned, they find that if you're talking about, let's say, conflict in your family or with a good friend, and you're asking your chatbot for advice. It's going to agree with you. It agrees with you, and so you. It's going to tell you you're right. It tells you you're right. And so if you know you're right, then you're not going to make an effort to repair the relationship. And we also study it in my lab at NYU, and what we find is if you're talking about value-based issues, it tells you you're right, and then you become more extreme and more overconfident in your beliefs. And the other thing, and this is the worst part, Oprah, is that people don't even see it. They have a blind spot to it, because everybody loves to hear how brilliant they are, and when they hear that, they're thinking, oh, of course. It just affirms them. Yeah, it just affirms them. Affirms them. Yeah, we did a whole podcast on this. People are, you know, falling in love with their chatbots. Unfortunately, people are also harming themselves because of their chatbots. So there's something about flying, though, that seems to bring out just the worst in people, and it didn't always be that way. I'm old enough to have been in the air where people actually dressed up to go on flights. It was such a big deal to be on a flight, like you're wearing gloves and dressing up and stuff. Not anymore. People barely bathe. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yes. So the Department of Transportation reports that the number of unruly passenger events has doubled since 2019, with one in five flight attendants reporting experiencing physical incidents. Watch this. Guys, hey, what's up? What's next? What's next? What? I have been pulling my head in. I am. Shut the f*** up. Stop. What? Stop. We're going to f***ing die, f***er. We are in a f***ing tin can with a baby in a f***ing bag. 76 percent and that's three quarters of the health care workers three quarters of the health care workers i thought flight attendants had it bad no no this is worse no and i'm really so so i'm surprised but i have one of one of my south african daughter girls is a is a is a doctor at the university of pennsylvania doing i mean doing her residency and she says that she's going to that she she's going to move into oncology because the experience of being a resident has taught her that it's the cancer patients who actually are the most grateful absolutely everybody else treats you like absolutely absolutely yeah so what is happening in the world i mean let's let's take a look before the pandemic um i know you had a chance to speak to our former surgeon general dr murthy and he pointed it very accurately that we are in a loneliness pandemic but that's just a very small uh portion what are they doing to the health care workers that's what we're all shocked that it's 76 connected we're in a loneliness pandemic but the health care workers saw the mental health pandemic coming ages before covid did people were hurting people are not only physically getting sicker mentally they're in a lot of crisis and they don't have the support outside in the communities so health care becomes your front lines emergency departments become your front lines for mental care you're already stressed cortisol levels are running high you're hyper vigilant because your environment is already a threat now imagine coming to the most chaotic location possible your emergency departments for your care yeah i see 60 hurt people in a day i have five minutes to learn your story that's not enough for you to tell me exactly what your body has been through all these years what your brain and your psyche has been through all these years you're already hurt and now you're you feel like i don't see you i don't hear you i don't validate you you're gonna snap is that because you meaning the health care workers are overworked and don't have enough people correct service all the people that need helping this trend to be violent to health care workers is that something new i mean that was the first time i've heard of a health care worker i've heard of those data but the violence the just the sheer level of violence dr patel but i will say that all the things you mentioned as kind of precursors are things that i'm aware about yeah um so the rise in mental health problems the lack of treatment and resources for those those are happening at university campuses i see it with my undergraduate students in my class and then you talked about they're coming in with pain and then there's also a level of dehumanization because they have this image of these health care workers from covid where they're all masked up yeah and i'm a new yorker so i remember during that wave of first wave of the pandemic where everybody was everybody was a hero we were out of our windows trapped in our apartments cheering at like 7 p.m every night banging pots and pans so what happened so the problem is you're understaffed yeah and that's not your fault that's a problem with the system um but a problem is also the norms again i gave a talk and a workshop in canada to over a thousand doctors and nurses and health care staff and then i met with them and the stories they told me about things like conspiracy theories and misinformation they now don't trust their doctors or their nurses you give them advice and they don't even believe it and and and all the medical health staff told me conspiracy theories that's a whole rabbit hole yeah but but a lot of medical staff that i talked to are not even trained to deal with that because they're used to being we're the experts you come to us for treatment you take our advice and we help you and this causes all kinds of conflict and friction in all of their interactions and then the people there lash out you've had things thrown at you and people oh yeah um my my colleagues have um bear the brunt of this i can tell you a story of my nurse of what iv doesn't hurt when you get an iv placed in you um a patient broke my nurse's hand fractured it because his iv hurt and then of course my nurse became my patient and i had to tend to her hand she was out of work for over 90 days we're already understaffed wow yeah she needs her hand to take care of patients you've had things thrown at you is what i'm 100 that's you know it's um it's become so commonplace that like verbal abuse racial slurs um what she said you know i violate women like you that's common that so common that we've become immune to it that we don't even report it anymore because it's so common it's a daily occurrence for some of my nurses and i do you think i mean listen um there's no one thing to blame but i think i don't know if some of the shows we watch on television you know those shows where the women are pulling each other's hair out and calling each other you bitches and things um whether or not that had an influence on us feeling people feeling like they can say anything and do anything this is exactly the issue the more we see those images and people absorb them the more they think it's acceptable to do that and and i want to just like say when i think of healthcare workers that's like a really altruistic job you're putting your life on the line to save people's lives yeah if that if we get you know i've seen the data on medical doctors and nurses burnout drop they're dropping out of the profession because it no longer becomes worth it yeah that affects our whole health as a society it's not worth it if people are throwing things at you when you're trying to help them no way yes yes yes yes and how has it changed your perspective about what you do dr patel you know it hasn't because i understand his research i understand human nature has not fundamentally changed i agree with you i think it's important that we agree with that research even on ground levels i understand that human nature hasn't changed it's our environment it's our environment people post-covid came back even more sicker their public their their physical health concerns were not addressed for almost two years mental health crises were rising now you're coming back into an environment where you've lost a lot of your doctors and nurses so the time you're getting is even shorter so i understood the change and it changed for the worse okay so what are we going to do about it how are we going to how do we unite the power of us to change this well i i think the broader issue for me because we're now talking about airplanes internet social media um we're talking about the medical environment i think we need to really realize that this this is a broader societal issue that we need to create a sense that we're all in it together that we all are part of the same community that you are doing a service to help us whether you're helping me fly somewhere or you're helping me get treated or my family get treated or whatever you're doing to help us whether you're helping me get treated you know the one of the most important ways of thinking about this that i get from the research that i've done and we describe in our book is the way people think about the world is they have a moral circle and people inside that moral circle you support and care for and cooperate with and people outside of it are are outsiders and we do not necessarily care we'll walk by them if they're in pain on the street but the research shows and and we describe this in our book that people have flexible moral circles you can get people to walk by them if they're in pain you can get people to think of themselves in a broader scope in a broader sense of identity and once you do that they will stop and help the person who's who's suffering and so i think a big part of it is we have to change people's minds to get them to realize and understand and constantly be thinking about it that we're all in it together and if we forget about that our health care system starts to fall apart it becomes dangerous to fly we can't post something online without getting harassed and so that's a broader issue and all of us have a role in it we all role model it it's how we talk it's how we treat other people but it also has to come from our leaders thank you american workers report experiencing uh 212 million acts of workplace incivility every single day i like that it's 212 and not 210 or 200 112 million acts of workplace incivility every single day so that's baristas and fast food workers are often the target of people's anger and frustration so we have a guest here today aiden tell us what is your story so i've been in the fast food industry for almost two years now and i've actually found that when people come in they're usually either already frustrated or angry that might have nothing to do with you and even when i try to do my best to help them sometimes it's just simply not enough i remember an instance that i had actually my first week and it was a couple and i don't know if it was a first date type of situation but he went to pay and the card did not go through and he took it out on you yeah and i notified him of this and he just started cussing at me yelling some very unkind things the woman next to him is like looking at him like he's kind of crazy and i'm just like because he knows that date's over there's no second date you cannot come back from the credit card not going through at a fast food restaurant on your first date he knows that's over so and you know even like when i'm working at the cash register or the drive-through i always make sure i'm good at communicating you have to make sure you're kind i've even seen people they've had thrown food at their feet and They yelled that they're never going to come back. And my question to Dr. J is, what is the best way to deal with confrontation, professionally and in the workspace? Yeah, so first of all, your story's horrific and funny, but terrifying. You're dealing with these people who are escalating because of something in their own life, right? Again, it goes back to they're facing a stress. But again, the historical way of dealing with that is like, you're embarrassed. You try to clear the bill and you move on. You don't upscale the conflict. And so you're now in a situation where you're dealing with this person escalating or going to throw their food at you in the other cases. And so I think like the lessons that Cher told us about what happens in an airplane is, first of all, de-escalate the situation as much as you can. Because some people, when they get in what's called a hot state, where they're angry or frustrated, they actually, it's trouble, it's difficult for them to reason and be mature and regulate their emotions. They can't even hear you anymore. Yeah, and some people have, you know, what they do in anger. And I think that's a big part of their management is they tell you to count down from 10 or 20. And so you're going to have to do that job for them to de-escalate. Okay, the second thing I would say to do is have a sense of solidarity with your other staff. When something like this happens, all back each other up. Yes. And again, this is about the power of us, right? They're going to be less likely to escalate against you. That's chapter seven, finding solidarity. Finding solidarity. Yeah. And this can be something that you should be discussing this with your coworkers beforehand. Yes. That this is our strategy. Any one of us faces abuse, all of us come and provide support because someone's going to be less likely to escalate against you if there's five people now standing beside you all having your back. That's good. And that's going to signal to them. There should be an escalation button. Escalation is happening, yes. Yeah, yeah. And it could be your manager, but also just be your coworkers. And then you do the same for them. And if you do that, it's going to de-escalate things. And it's going to make it way more risky for them to throw their fries or whatever at you. They're going to think twice about it. They're going to talk about that now. And then the other thing is, you're going to have a greater sense of solidarity and camaraderie at your work if you know everybody's got your back. And so even when you face these kind of hostile environments, it's going to be a powerful signal to people that it's not accepted here. None of us will tolerate it. And all of us have each other's back. And that's going to be a place that when other people see that, they're going to be less likely to escalate too. So it could have a powerful influence on changing the norms of your workplace. I would also say that because that is such a humane, humiliating moment, that maybe one of the things you all can be trained to say is, you know, I'm sorry. You know, the card, you know, is not accepting it at this time. There may be something wrong with the machine, but it's not accepting your card. That's, you know what I mean? Because the guy then feels like maybe it's the machine and it's not me. Yeah, the person feels like maybe it's the machine. Yeah. So since that instance, I usually ask, is it locked? To kind of give them an idea of like, it's not going through. And usually they like go on their phone and kind of fix it. And then that kind of diffuses it. And I just talk calmer, be kind. Yeah. Always smile. Yeah. Yeah, you're doing good, Aiden. Yeah. You're doing good. That's, so Kaylee, what's your story? Well, I've been a barista for over 10 years now, which, yeah, it's a lot. I've had a lot of experiences dealing with people. And I just feel like, everyone is a little bit impatient. Like they don't want to wait, you know, at all for anything. It's true. We've been trained by our phones. Instant this, instant response. Nobody wants to wait for anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had instances where people kind of get in my face or I've actually had some guy, he threw like a half cup of iced coffee across the room and it hit me and my coworkers. You know, I have people that really make it worthwhile every day that treat us like friends. So I think that, that is what keeps you going. But I think, you know, everything you say and do, it kind of affects other people. So you've noticed that people are meaner. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think there's just the patience thing. And I just feel like people don't treat us like we're actual human beings sometimes. Like if we make a mistake, it's just, you know. Like you're just there to serve them and. Yeah, a little bit. So that's kind of hard, I think, you know, over time. They don't understand the power of us. Thank you so much for sharing. Well, like our next guest, more than half of Americans have been harassed on social media. Let's watch this short clip. Is it me or has everybody gotten like insanely mean? Like super duper mean. It's to the point where I have a friend who's afraid to like post pictures of her online and do stuff online because of how mean people are. She posted a picture of herself one time on Twitter. And she's a Heavyset girl. And like the comments were crazy. But she sent me like a picture of her DM. And like somebody told her to herself. I don't know what's in the water, but it's like everybody is just so mean. I think it's because people are miserable in real life. So they get on the internet and they finally are able to punch down on people. This is the only power some people have in their life. Like this is the only way they can feel. This is the only way they can feel better about themselves. Yeah, Amber. Yeah. Did you have a question? I've dealt with some very mean comments online. I love doing TikTok. I love like doing little dances and stuff. And I've had comments behind fake pages that were horrendous that I wouldn't even think of. I just feel like it is a point where people are kind of disconnected because you are on a phone and it's like you can just say it and get away with it. Nobody can know you're doing it. And I've had people call me a hog and I was at my tiniest, but they called me a hog and it caused me to exercise excessively, restrict calories. Till this day, that comment was three years ago. And it's still, I still, till this day, like how many calories is this? Or I gotta work out for 45 minutes, lose this amount of calories. I just ate this, like, and I do it unconsciously now. And I didn't do that prior to that comment. How do you deal with, how do you not take it personal? Let me say first, I'm, that's awful that you had to deal with that. Nobody has to deal with it. And I think you understand it. When I saw your video, there was a great, like a lot of insight there about these are hurt people. They're lashing out to feel better about themselves. Absolutely, absolutely. And so they're belittling you or anybody. And why you're feeling it, that pain three years later, is something also about our basic psychology. There's a basic effect that is bad is stronger than good. So for every 10 positive comments, the one negative will stick with you. And it's crazy because I've gotten plenty of positive comments but I remember that one comment more than any other positive comment that I've gotten. And I feel the same way when I get my end of semester teaching evaluations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of those are stuck in my mind for years later. So like, I just want to like empathize with you that that's basic human psychology. What you're going through is not unusual. Okay, so how do you deal with it? The first thing I want to say is we should deal with this at the source because the people doing this are causing an enormous amount of distress and mental health. It's causing a lot of mental health issues and chaos to other people's life. The research on this shows actually the people who post those type of comments, it's often a small number of people. But the difference of online a little bit is that if you're walking around on the street in New York, you know, if someone wants to harass other people, they can harass a couple and before long the cops are going to come get them. Online, they can do this to hundreds of people in a given day. And like you said, they put that there and then they just moved on and did it to someone else. And so that is a part of the design of social media is the small, it's a small number of people who are doing most of the chaos. You know, when we think of misinformation, we just talked about that in the healthcare system, 0.1% of people spread 80% of the misinformation online. Yeah. Really? Yes. Yes. 0.1% are spreading 80% of the misinformation. But they're posting a lot. So those people are posting all day long. They've made it. They've made it their job. They've made it their job to push this, but it causes chaos for all of the rest of us in our life or harassment. And so I think there's lots of things you can do that are within your powers. Obviously like you can block comments, you can mute and block people. And I've started to do that very liberally 'cause I'm on social media too. I don't even have comments anymore 'cause people just say the meanest, craziest things. And all the people get together and they're like, "Ah." So that's why I don't have comments. That sums it up right there. That's it. That's it. Yeah. And so it's like, for any of us who are gonna live online now, if you're like, if you enjoy it, you have a creative instinct. So for many people it's related to their career now to be online. Yeah. And so you have to create a bubble around you that's gonna block those types of things from reaching you. Because I think the moment they reach you, they're stuck in your mind for three years. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I will tell you this. I was thinking this because, you know, as yes, we don't, we don't have comments. That's why we don't have comments. Even as you're watching this podcast, 'cause people just get so the vitriol got to be so bad. We just stopped it. But I remember back in the day, I was thinking this the other day when I was feeling this whole thing that you were talking about, people are so mean. I remember when people were doing snail mail and I used to get like 10,000 letters a week. I find one letter that said, I, didn't like the way you did it i would look that person up i would find them i would track them now and call them up and then they'd say oh oprah i didn't mean that girl i can't believe this is you calling me you know what i mean so uh it's it's very interesting but i i i think all of us have that it's human nature you can have a thousand people say this was great and then the 1001 person i'm gonna track them down oh and i understand i went searching i'm like it's a it's a gray avatar i'm like which gray avatar is this i'm searching trying to find it yes i understand i understand so why is that our human nature you can hear a thousand wonderful things and the one thing is the one that sticks okay so the the argument behind it is from an evolutionary sense if there was like a snake in our environment and we ignored it we died and so we are the ancestors of the snake and we are the ancestors of the snake and we are the ancestors of generation after generation after generation of people who are hyper vigilant to threats ah and then another aspect of that human nature we go to the loneliness epidemic is that um again we're the generation after generation after generation of people who fit in because if if if you know throughout evolution if you got kicked out of the tribe you died and we're not a very strong species on our own we don't have camouflage or wings to fly away or poison or sharp teeth we need each other our our superhuman strength our well our super strength as a species is cooperation the power of us so so when we get a signal that someone is signaling we're not worthy socially that is incredibly painful for people psychologically and that's why it's almost primal yeah it's very primal yeah yeah well stacy has had also an experience uh online take a look so it is it fascinates me how mean people are willing to be behind a computer it's funny how people start to come at your looks your weight your skin what you own what you have what you have on would you walk up to someone in real life and ever say that are you that miserable that you feel it necessary to go online with nothing to do with anything just speak to someone like that now you wonder why women especially are so messed up in the head be better people be better people so why did you post that stace well it's funny i started my account a year ago because i was like i'm gonna free myself of all this and the comments are and my voice is a little annoying so i'll give you that but that's a big one my voice is annoying my skin is my skin is creepy i'm like i'm old you know like people point out my age a lot i'm like i know how old i am it's wild what people will come for you for and like i had someone be like the meanest i get why he left you i was like which husband which one but i am i i am compelled to answer so now you block yeah i can't stop yeah i answer everything you do everything and the meaner it is i find that i either have to answer or keep answering i'm like i can't stop is it your intention by answering back to try to change their mind no you know what i think my intention is accountability right like the accountability if you don't just get it right you're not going to get it right you're not going to get it right and i get to say this is not a one-sided conversation you can't speak and drop the mic that's not fair so i think i come back to be like and and if you have enough look i'm smart enough to if you say something and it's proper i'll be like okay yeah but don't come at me for stuff like weight is horrible yeah because it does stick with you so my question to you is why do you think people are so comfortable being mean online they wouldn't come up to you and say that to your face yeah so this is an issue again of norms like for example when i'm at work people are very warm and friendly we have like norms of professionalism right and then when you're online it's easier to to engage in the types of comments that you would not do in person or at a restaurant sometimes this still happens when people lash out at at fast food restaurant workers or medical staff but it's much easier online and part of it is because we have different norms again on that situation and so when you're pushing back on them you're trying to hold them accountable and i and it sounds distressing i would not advise that from like a psychological perspective for your own benefit but it actually can be really powerful for establishing norms and it is actually more powerful if someone steps in to help you and even more powerful if someone who looks like the person is calling them out because we follow the norms of people who are not human beings and we're not human beings and we're not human beings like us and so if you see someone if it's a man doing it it's more powerful if a man steps in and says listen that's really creepy or inappropriate no one deserves that no one thinks it's funny they're way more likely to shut down than if you do it and so that's why i call on all everybody here or watching that we all have a power to change the norms and in particular if people like us are doing it it's more powerful if we step in and help somebody else out okay so what is the path forward out of this beingness can you give us a reason to hope that things are going to get better or that things can change so so i am hopeful and i tend to be a positive person and so the fact that it's gotten worse also means it can get better and so we all have a role in creating a an environment we want to live in so online as i've studied these dynamics and how people harass and spread information i've actually changed my own online behavior i'm less likely to to get in an argument or say something mean about somebody else i'm less likely to get in an argument or say something mean about somebody um because i realize how that spreads among other people and how it impacts them and so i think understanding is the first uh thing about how this impacts people and then the second thing is we all have a duty to step in and change the norms whether that's at our job or in our families or um out in the real world or online and so we have a job to do that to create if we want a more civil world it's created by all of us um and then the last thing as i've said is that we have to do it over and over again is our leaders need to do it and if they're not going to do it we have to hold them accountable to do it we have to push for this and say this is something we care about and that we value and that we want and that just isn't just our political leaders it's our our bosses at work that they have to have a no tolerance you said that nothing happened to that guy who was it sexually harassed you the airline has to be no you will never fly with us ever again or the security staff has to be like no you can't come to our airport ever again and so we have to have norms and then enforce them make them have real consequences for people well we're going to end it there and i'll leave you with this when i turned 50 maya angelou um wrote a poem for me and one of the lines of the short a poem called continue you can see it online uh and one of the lines in that poem is that my wish for you is that you continue to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness that's beautiful and so that's my wish for all of us is that we continue to astonish this mean world with our acts of kindness and that we continue to evolve into the people that we know we deserve to be i think because as you were saying human nature hasn't changed we all still have our values that's why the meanness bothers us so much because we know that there's a better way and i think instead of just knowing that there's a better way to live knowing that there's a better way what the power of us is all about is enacting that better way for yourself and for your friends and your community on a daily basis yes i agree 100 okay well i love that a mean world with our acts of kindness okay so you could go you could go on a social media diet for a while you could have your friends over for a barbecue you can do whatever you want to do you can do whatever you want to do whatever it takes for you to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness all right the book is called the power of us you can get it wherever you buy your books thank you dr j thank you so much thank you thank you it should be kind go well everybody thank you dr j if you're part of the 53 of americans who feel that society has become uncivil and want to know what we can do about it i encourage you to buy a copy of dr j van bavel's book the power of us the qr code is right there on your screen it might just give you hope for the future i know we all believe we can do better you can buy the book right now by scanning the qr code our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day that means a lot to me so here's the thing i would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the oprah podcast on youtube or wherever you podcast it's it's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.