We Taught Them to Hate Our Country - Katharine Birbalsingh

People look at multiculturalism and they say it is broken, I do not disagree. It is broken because of what we have done with our children. People were asked when they think that political violence against your political opponent is justified. When you ask people between the ages of 18 to 24, it's one in four people. And for those who identify as progressive, half of them think that if they think your views are fascist, they should be able to attack you physically. Why do they think that? As of what they've been told, right? Because of what we're teaching them through the media, in our homes and in our schools. We don't start talking to each other, we are going to have civil war on the street. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Hillsdale College. Right after this episode, go check out the incredible online courses, which are absolutely free at Hillsdale.edu/trigger. Katherine Burwell saying welcome back to Trigger Nometry. Well thanks for having me. It's always fantastic to have you on, but you have got a book out which I think a wades into very controversial and dangerous territory while navigating all the difficult issues that we are all concerned with at the moment in our country. And you do very well and I think you're not partisan politically, which is always great. You talk about where but left and right are not looking at the problems that we're going to discuss correctly in your opinion. And it's really fantastic. One of the things I wanted to do for people who haven't seen every interview we've done with you before is actually to talk about the part of your book that's autobiographical because you are known as Britain's strictest headmistress, but actually you went into teaching with a totally lefty mindset of wanting to help black kids because you believed that black children don't do well in school because there's not enough black teachers effectively. Is that a fair summation? Yeah, because of racism in the classroom and poverty. Racism and poverty. Those are the two big things. So you start out as this well intentioned lefty, you go into education and what happens? And I start to see that things aren't as I imagined. I saw lots of white teachers working really hard for the black and brown kids in front of them. Really dedicated people. And often there was very poor behavior. The systems didn't seem to work. The knowledge we were teaching them was perhaps not being taught as it ought to be, but that took me many years to sort of figure out. It's over time that you come to see that the things that you imagined were the case just aren't true. And I, well, I just came to change my mind. I came to change my mind about what works in the classroom, that the more progressive methods that we were taught in my PGCE, teacher training, the stuff that everyone pushed was just wrong. And that actually if you gave kids the tensions and told them off that that worked. I found that praise and punishment worked and that the old fashioned traditional ways of raising kids that we were told to move away from worked. And you learn that over years because nobody's telling you that. So nowadays things are in teaching. Thanks to the Michael Goe reforms that happened between 2012 and 2016 or so. Thanks to those, everyone just takes for granted that we teach knowledge in classrooms. Before then, there was no such thing as a debate between should we teach knowledge, should we teach skills? Everybody just didn't teach knowledge, I can't, and that seems crazy, but that is how it was. Everyone was suspicious of discipline. In those days, if a kid had a knife in their bag, you were not allowed to search their bags. If you wanted to give a kid a detention, you had to give them 24 hours notice and you'd have to write it in their diary. And then they'd be booked for the next day. They'd already be booked and then you wouldn't be able to give them a detention. And you'd say, "Oh, you've got a detention." And they'd say, "24 hours, 24 hours." So they used to say, "People don't realize." And there's a reason why the results in PISA, the international tables that just came out a few weeks ago, that we've done so well. England has done really well. Why? Because of the Goe reforms. And the Goe reforms basically established a traditional outlook in teaching, which is to give us traditional teaching methods and traditional discipline. And before that, we were like 27th in the world for science or maths or English it was and then 21st and so on. Now we're in the top 10 for all three categories of reading, maths and science. And the reason is because we have gone back to tradition. So the one difference I would say now that my really distinguishes my school is the traditional values that we've got that I'm on a big campaign partly through my book. And just generally I'm trying to persuade the world of schools and just the world of families. Because people, when looking at my book, well, one, it's called diversity is not a strength. So you know, that should make it clear that this isn't just about schools, but it isn't just in schools where children learn how to be adults. They also learn how to be adults at home. And I think parents and teachers, I think we're doing the wrong stuff. I'm glad you said the thing about this book isn't about schools because I think it's about a lot more than that. And you make very important points about our society. And also it's important because otherwise people will switch off because education is not a sexy subject. But as you've convinced us, or didn't need to, as you've convinced me, didn't need to go into this Francis that education is important. And it took me a while, didn't it? I haven't been bashing you for years and years and years. I feel like I'm in detention now. I've been bashing you and so many people. I'm trying to get people to understand just how important childhood is to a country. And people look at the country and they say, why is it in the mess that it's in? And it's in the mess that it's in because of what we're doing with our children. And nobody understands this. I've been saying it for 25 years. And now I've written a book because I'm trying to explain people look at multiculturalism and they say it is broken. I do not disagree. Well, indeed, the central thesis of your book from what I took away from it was that almost every debate we have in our society now that is polarized, that is difficult, that is messy, and that is ultimately unresolved is a product of the fact that we've been teaching children to think precisely in these unhelpful ways for a very long time. And one of the things you tackle head on and you're uniquely placed, obviously, to talk about is the infiltration of what you call white guilt into society. And how that affects pretty much everything talks to us about that. Yeah. So, I mean, if you think back to 1995, there may have been a little bit of white guilt here and there, but it wasn't overpowering in the way that it is now. When people talk about Henry Novak and what happened to him, they talk about two-tiered justice. And then I know there are many progressives who will say, "Oh no, no, it doesn't exist." But actually, if you go through the various different events that have happened in the last 10 to 15 years, in particular in the last five, six years, we can see a difference. We can see a difference in the way that our institutions are reacting to things. Certainly in schools, and this is something I talk about in the book, although I also mentioned the police, the fact is, are judiciary, I mean, we all know something's not quite right. But where the right goes wrong on this is that the right, you need at least, just jumps to immigration and says, "It's all these black and brown people that are the problem." And the thing about black and brown people is that, well, we live here, right? There's lots of people on acts who say to me, "Well, all we need to do is get rid of you, Catherine. We can put you on a helicopter and send you home," whatever that is. "We'll send you out of the country. And if we can just get rid of you, everything will be all right." And what I say to the right is, look, and obviously that's more the extreme right. Obviously, there's a whole lot of people in the center right who don't think that. But what I am noticing is that there are more and more people in the center right who are so fed up, and I don't blame them when I get it, but they're jumping. They're jumping over to the further right. And they're jumping because they have no other sort of narrative to explain what's going on. And it is much easier to just say, "Well, look at these brown and black people. They are the problem." And there's no question that there are some black and brown people who are a problem. I'm not saying that there aren't. But the fact of the matter is that most of the people who are making all of these decisions around Henry Novak, what's happening with the police, the judges, the teachers, these people are all white, right? So it's not as easy as just saying, "Well, obviously, the problem is black and brown people because white people, I believe, are riddled with white guilt." Now, I can't say all white people, but there are lots of them. And it's in our institutions. It's in the blood veins where it's just pumping through everything. And so if the decisions that we're making all of the time are often peppered with this white guilt, then we make the wrong sorts of decisions. And that happens from your dot. What does that look like in a school? It looks like, so one story I talk about in the book is celebrating flag day. It's a very standard thing to have these cultural celebrations at school where everybody is celebrating their own culture, yet no one would ever celebrate British culture. And when I say no one, so we have a British flag that flies outside our school. And this morning I went to assembly and all the children stood. And just before they stood for their headmistress because we're a traditional school, they sang God save the king. I say, sang God save the king. I sing it every morning, right? Now it's interesting because in America that used to be a standard thing that we'd I grew up in Canada and we sang, oh Canada every morning in school, it was normal. Nowadays that doesn't, I mean, it's almost offensive to sing God save the king. It's very hard to find a school where they would do that every day. In fact, I've never heard of one. I don't know, maybe I've never heard of one singing God save the king. How many schools have the British flag fly at their school? We have one flag and it's the British flag. All schools have a pride flag or the trans flag. They might be littered with Palestinian flags. The school might not officially itself be flying the Palestinian flag, but you will find children with pins on them or it might be sewn onto their bags or that sort of thing. So the thing is that when you are wanting to celebrate all the time, other people's cultures, so when I say other people, what I mean by that is other countries. And of course children will feel an affinity to the country that their parents are from, their grandparents are from and so on. When, you know, I've been to Jamaica many times, my mother is Jamaican. I have a particular relationship with Jamaica that I do not have with say Brazil. That makes sense. When Jamaica Day happens every year, I think, oh, it's Jamaica Day, that's a nice thing, you know. And some people, some people is Jamaican heritage, go out and celebrate Jamaican Day. Great. I eat my plantains as much as any other, you know, Jamaican heritage person. However, if those young people do not also identify as British, we have a huge problem as a country. And that is where, so like this recent, not recent, actually, you began it. You began the conversation around Englishness and Britishness. In the dirt and bleed. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, and it's interesting because I haven't told you that, so I have a podcast that started in August and it's called "Strictly Education." It's fantastic. I really enjoy watching it. Oh, I love this. So nice that you watch it. So, yes. And my strictly education podcast that's coming out. So obviously, we're recording this long before this goes out. But the one that's coming out this week is all about you. So, this could go either way. By the time you're watching this, either Catherine and I, the best of friends, or things have gone downhill. Yes, exactly, exactly. So it'll be interesting because I'll be interested to hear what you think of what I say. So the reason I'm, it's, it's, it's lots about you is because I begin with talking about you and Fraser Nelson having the conversation about Englishness and Britishness. And I sort of tell the story and then I explain, well, in fact, you can tell me right now what you think, I then explain that I think that this conversation, and actually you just said inadvertently, which is, which is, which is the right answer. It's the right answer because you don't think that it's a big deal. Like why are we having this crazy conversation over and over again about, are you English? Are you British? If you're an ethnic minority, you need to answer the question. You got to a point where any politician that was being interviewed, the first thing they'd say is, are you English? We know you're British, but are you English? And then it was a situation where, well, if I'm a progressively minded, sensible person, I'm going to say English, but if I say I'm British, then that must mean I'm far right. That, that is how it was interpreted. We the media classes are all chatting about, are we English, are we British, are we English, are we British? When actually, I'd like to put it to everyone, are we anything, right? And when I say, are we anything? If we go up to young people nowadays and say to them, are you proud to be British? In 2005, 80% of people would have said they were proud to be British. In 2025, 40% of people would say that they were proud to be British. And that's not young people, right? The fact of the matter is, is that something has changed over the last 20 years. People are not proud to be British, and they don't identify, the point is, do we identify as British at all? Not whether or not we are English or British, but do we feel part of this country? The reason why everyone has, I think it's a massive red herring in the conversation. It's a red herring between English and British, because what everyone's upset about when they're having this argument is that when you say, well, actually, you feel British, you wouldn't call yourself English, that's because you're thinking of Englishness as an ancestry, which is fine, makes sense. When they say English, they mean it as a civic identity. So the two of you mean something totally different. You mean, when you say British, that's the civic identity. When you say English, that's the ancestry. They are using Englishness just as a civic identity, and that's it. What matters is, do we have a civic identity at all, right? Because I guarantee you, there are a whole lot of people who live in this country right now who don't identify as either English or British, right? They identify as being Indian or Pakistani or Jamaican or Ghanaian, and so that's how they think of themselves. And that's a problem. Because if a country is not united under one flag, which is why I say we have one flag that flies at the Kayla, my school, if we do not have that, then we will be broken as a society, which is why people feel that multiculturalism is broken. And I get it. The thing is, since we're talking about my comments, the only thing I will dad is, I think in my conversation, in our conversation with Fraser, the way it was clipped is sort of misrepresent the nature of the conversation because I was talking about my own children who are born here, very white other than anyone in this room, frankly, also not being English because of the ancestral thing. But there is a reason why a) this conversation is pertinent and is being talked about. And it's actually the reason that you identify, because what I'm really thinking about is, what is the right identity, civic identity, that we could theoretically all unite around, which is what you're talking about. And the reason I don't think Englishness works is there far too many both ethnic minorities and, ancestrally, English people who don't accept that ethnic minorities can be English, therefore it's not a great identity for us to all unite around. But the intention of what I'm saying is, what is it that we can all unite around in a society that I don't like multiculturalism, and we can talk about that, multi-ethnic society in which people from all sorts of ancestries are living in one place, how do we move forward is my question. And I think Britishness is a much better fit for that. And I would argue the fact that you don't fly an England flag outside of your school is kind of what I'm getting at. You fly the British flag because that's how you can unite people, is that fair? Yeah, no, no, absolutely. That is what you meant. And that's why when they're saying English, but they're saying Englishness is a civic identity, you're both saying the same thing. You and Fraser are saying the same thing. And this conversation is only held by the media classes. This is the point, we should not be talking about whether or not we're English or British. What we should be talking about is whether we are British at all, right? That is what's important. And the thing is, it's interesting when you say about multi-ethnic because I would disagree with you. And in my book, I talk about this idea and how people, more right-leaning, will often talk about how multiculturalism is bad, not bad, but is broken and it doesn't work, which I get. And therefore, what we need to talk about is multi-racial society or a multi-ethnic society. I would say a monocultural society. Okay. A society in which we have one culture, which is British culture. Okay. The thing is, within that British culture, there are lots of cultures. You see, what you wouldn't deny is that we eat sushi and curry and, you know, a variety of foods. We wouldn't want to deny people is the right to wear different religious stress. You wouldn't want to raise the mosques and the temples to the ground. You want to allow people, there are different cultures because those are all cultural. So I tell you what, I've got a solution for you. And the solution is in my book. The solution, my solution is what I call multi-cultural patriotism. Now, and the thing is, is that, you know, some people have read it and you obviously have read it. And, some people have read it and they said, "But everyone is going to hate this gathering." Because the left are going to hate the patriotism side of it. The right are going to hate the multicultural side of it. You're just going to make everybody hate you. Well, it's true, and maybe everybody will hate me. What I- hoping. See, the thing is, is that we're kind of grabbing at straws. We're looking and saying, but we know multiculturalism is broken and multiculturalism is broken because it's political multiculturalism. It's state multiculturalism. That's what it is. And it's being imposed on us and we're being told diversity is our strength. It's our strength, even though it's bloody obvious to all of us that it is not a strength, which is why I've called my book diversity is not our strength. And I've written the book in such a way that I hope that the book is such that I really hope that it speaks to people on both the right and the left. It does. So you found when you were, I thought when I was reading it that if I were, if I was left leaning in my outlook, this would be the most accessible way for me to engage with the ideas you're talking about. Here's a number worth sitting with. A pound today buys about 75% of what it could in 2020. 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Plus, if you're quick, you'll receive a free half ounce solid silver 2027 Britannia if you buy gold a silver worth 500 quid or more. To receive your free guide to physical gold, scan the QR code on screen now or follow the link in the description or the pinned comment. Can we just do a little bit of definition, Catherine? So when I think of multiculturalism, I think it's like you say a state-imposed thing where the overarching culture of Britishness basically doesn't exist and what we celebrate is the cultures of all the different people. And I think, as you say, that doesn't work. And when I mean monoculturalism, of course, you're allowed to be Jamaican and I'm allowed to be of Russian ancestry and speak Russian to my children and whatever. But that is very secondary to the Britishness of all of us. That's why. That's the patriotism. So multicultural patriotism, what that allows for is that we can each have our cultures. As you say, you would speak Russian at home, but you put the country before your own tribal interests. That's the thing. The patriotism is recognizing that you aren't the only person who matters in the world and your group isn't the only group that matters. And that you don't go out there fighting for your group only. In fact, you fight for the country. So these days, there'll be a stat in my book somewhere, but the number of people who are willing to fight for the country because they're very few nowadays. The fact is that we're not willing to fight for the country. We're not willing to put the country first because too many of our young people don't like Britain. This is what we don't understand. Too many of our young people have been taught in their schools, in their homes, in the media, everywhere that Britain is a racist, bad country. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't teach the truth in history. Churchill was a complicated man, but the fact is just teaching our children all the time, the narrative of oppressor versus oppressed, and that if you have any kind of victim identity, you might be gay or trans or you're suffering from mental health or you have special knees or you're black or you're brown or you're Muslim or you're Hindu or whatever it is, all of these various different identities make you into a victim and therefore the state, the British state is the bad, they're the baddies and Britain is bad and if we look at the history of Britain which is then taught to you in such a way that you really see just how bad Britain is, then you grow up disliking Britain and therefore in 2025, 40% of people, not mainly young people, 40% of people are proud to be British. There was another survey done where one and the thing is, I just see this, I see this in my life, so I'm quoting kind of poles and things, but the fact is that anybody on the ground who's actually got their eyes open, who's in schools, who sees young people, who talks see young people, not the kids at my school, I'm talking about the kids everywhere else. Believe me, if the people watching this don't believe me, go and find some kids, go and talk to them. It doesn't matter what color they are, they could be brown and black, they could be, they could be white, ask them what they think of British history, ask them what they know of British history and the stuff they're going to tell you about, what they know of British history, they'll tell you about Hitler, they'll tell you about the oppression of various brown and black people in America. Here, their only understanding of history will be the view of oppressor versus oppressed and if you grow up with that, that is when you then get all of these marches on the street. Now, in my book, as I say, I explain this in more detail, why childhood matters, and as you said at the beginning, every political situation that we're looking at, it is grounded in childhood. So when we're all looking at saying, Gen Z, what's wrong with them? I don't understand it. Why are our young people behaving as they do? The number of 50-year-olds, 60-year-olds who I speak to, who will tell me, yeah, I'm a bit embarrassed to talk to my kids because they think I'm a bit of a racist, oh, actually, they think I'm a bit of a transform. Oh my goodness, I just try and avoid those political conversations with my children, right? And I'm sure that your audience listening will be going, that's true, actually, my children do feel a little estranged from me and their friends, and why do they seem like they've come from a different planet? It is because of the way in which we have taught them, and we don't recognize that, and then we all say, what's happening? Now, let me get back to the multicultural patriotism point. Multiculturalism is broken, but we don't want to get rid of the different cultures in the country. Well, I haven't got rid of the different cultures in my school. My, I've got kids, I've got Hindu kids, Muslim kids, I've got Buddhist kids, I've got, I've got all kinds of kids, right? And I've got Christian kids. Now, I got everybody. I've also got black kids from Africa, brown kids from all over the Middle East, India. I got some Chinese kids, I got kids Caribbean, and I said, all of these heritage, right? This is where their heritage is from. All of them are from here, right? Some of them, their parents, were born here. Now, some of them, their grandparents were born here. So they're, they're British, but they're also of a heritage from somewhere else. Now, they all have different cultures. They all eat different foods. They all wear different dress. Some of the girls wear hijabs. Some of them don't. Some of the Sikh boys will wear bracelets. They, they, they dress differently, right? They do different things when they go home. Some of them are learning the Quran by heart, you know, and they go to the mosque and, and others are wear a cross under their, their, their uniform, right? So we allow them their different cultures, but there is one overarching culture that binds us together, and that is Britain. And so we sing, God say the King, we sing Jerusalem, we sing, I vow to thee my country. This morning, I was showing them the trailer for their, because the next week they've got a reward film, and our year 11's have, we'll be watching 1917. Why? Because we are preparing for remembrance for when we come back, and every child will wear a poppy, and all of us will recognize the two-minute silence. And in assemblies coming up to the, the 11th, we will talk about the, the, the, the boys who gave their lives, and those boys will not just be white boys. They will be a variety of different boys from the Caribbean, from Africa, and so on. Now, India, etc. Like the fact is that we in still a sense of deference and reverence to towards the country in our children, and they watched the, so those year 11's last year watch Dunkirk, for instance, and so on. And so every year, we're building up a sense of gratitude for the freedoms that we've got. Now, how many schools are doing that, right? How many schools are doing quite the opposite? Because I know of many schools where they wouldn't even have poppies at all, or if they do, it's a few kids who are buying a few poppies. It's not everybody. And there's this real sense of, well, come on, that was ages ago, you know? And how many schools would have children where they could tell you all of the details of the Second World War, where they would understand that it's not just oppressors versus oppressed. Like, talk to children. I, you know, people don't believe me. Talk to children. I don't just mean 15-year-olds. I mean 25-year-olds ask them what they know of history. They will only understand history through the prism of oppressor and oppressed. And so the thing is, when you see it in that way, everything is interpreted that way. Think about J.K. Rowling, for instance, okay? So there's a whole bunch of people who think she's a transfer. We all know she's not a transfer. We know that ultimately she doesn't hate trans people or want to harm trans people. She simply believes that women should have spaces that that are their spaces, and that biological women should be there. the only people who would enter those bases. That is what she thinks. If you were to ask anyone over the age of 45, what they think of that position, most of them would say, it's perfectly reasonable position to take. You ask anyone under the age of 30, what they think of that position, and they will say it's horrifying, she's a transfer. Now, so the point is is that what I'm saying isn't just about race. So my book is called Diversity is Not Our Strength, but it isn't just about race. It's about anything that is seen through the prism of oppressor and oppressed. And the fact is, there's a reason why are under 30-year-olds think the way they do, right? Now, not all of them. Obviously, I'm not talking about everybody, and I talk about Gen Z and people will, you know, some people get offended and they say, but obviously, I'm not talking about all of them, but we notice a real difference. And I'd even say the younger millennials, for instance, you, over time, we're beginning to see this, and they have not yet met Gen Alpha. When Gen Alpha get into the workplace, and not just the workplace, but out on the streets, why are we seeing the things that we are seeing? Do you know, so another poll I'll give you, people were asked when they think that political violence against your political opponent is justified, right? You ask people over the age of 75, one in 33 said it would be justified. But when you ask people between the ages of 18 to 24, it's one in four people, think it's justified. And for those who identify as progressive, their political progressives, it's half of them. Half of them think that if they think your views are fascist, they should be able to attack you physically, right? Because of what they've been told, right? Because of what we're teaching them through the media, through in our homes and in our schools. And we have no idea. And because nobody takes those-- - So what have they been taught in their schools that I can understand what you say about having a different view of history or all of this stuff? What have they been taught in schools that justifies violence? - Well, if, for instance, all you ever hear are about these evil men like Hitler, right? So you know when people have these ideas, well, if I could go back in history and I could do something-- - Well, I kill-- - I kill Hitler. - I kill Hitler because, well, I'd save millions, right? If other characters, say like Churchill, are painted in a similar sort of light, because for you, as the child learning this, well, if you're a racist, then you're an oppressor. And if you're, you know, an ordinary person, then you are oppressed and not just ordinary, but if you have one of those victimhood flags, then you are oppressed. Then anyone who was an oppressor deserves to die. - So Charlie Kirk is Hitler. - That's exactly right. So why Charlie Kirk is a great example. Or remember that CEO of the healthcare CEO who was killed? Yeah, exactly. So, or Charlie Kirk, you know, Charlie Kirk is a father who, I can't know this from just talking to 25-year-olds. Forget about 15-year-olds. I'm talking 25-year-olds, right? When I try to explain the Charlie Kirk is it was a decent guy? They don't understand what I mean. How could I possibly think he was decent? And I say, well, because he was a father, he was a good man, he was a good husband. In fact, unlike most people, he actually went to young people in the universities to talk to them, to try and bridge gaps and to try and do something, you know? When I think do something, what I mean is a lot of people talk and they go on their keyboards and so on. Most people don't go into universities and try and talk to young people. So, I have a real admiration for Charlie Kirk for that. And they say, but you know, he thought that women who were raped should carry the baby to term. And they should not be allowed abortion. And I say, okay, but well, you just disagree with him. And they can't understand that that's just disagreement. They think that he's evil, right? And young people, now I'm not saying that everyone who thinks that he's evil, then thinks that they should be physically attacked, because I've just said it was one in four. And for the progressives, it's 50%. So, there's 50% who don't think that. But there's 50% of them who do. Who think that that healthcare guy? So, what's his name? Oh, his name will come to me. Hassan Kaker, him. He, going on telling everybody how it's quite right that we should steal from supermarkets that they push this idea that why is it all right to steal from a supermarket? Because the supermarket is the oppressor. Why is it, he, when being asked, oh, well, what about if it was your local restaurant or a local shop? Oh, no, somebody in the local restaurant, somebody decides to leave without paying. Oh, well, I'd pay for them. Because he sees them as the oppressed. You're just a little restaurant, whereas a big supermarket, well, they are the oppressor. He is a great example of somebody who sees everything through that lens. And so, my book very much explores all of these ideas. It talks about how diversity is most definitely not our strength. But multicultural patriotism, you see. It allows us our different cultures. You see, I think that's one of the ways. Because the right says down with multiculturalism, and because the left says diversity is our strength, the two will never meet. Now, what I'm hoping, hoping, is that the people in the middle who lean to the right and who lean to the left, there's the leftist identitarians, they're never gonna listen to me. And there's the extreme right. Well, they want me on a helicopter going home, so forget about them. Probably not a helicopter, more like a easy trip. That's worse. Well, I want a first class ticket. Now, if you lean right or you lean left, I really hope that they read this book because I've done my best to be a teacher in it. And try and explain things in a way that people can follow. And Amal Rajan read it, and he said that he read it in one sitting, and it was so easy, it was a really easy read. And it explains to people how the other side thinks. That's what, I mean, I don't know, did you find that? Absolutely, that's what I mean. You charted a path between the two shout-outy extremes very powerfully, that's where it succeeds. I hope everyone reads it. Well, because the reason why I'm putting forward this idea of multicultural patriotism, and what I really hope is that that ends up on the coming out of the mouths of our politicians, whether right or left, that they'll at least talk about it, because I want to change the narrative. Because at the moment, the narrative is, throughout multiculturalism, what we need is multi-ethnicity. But that isn't quite accurate, and the left know it. The left know it, because they're saying, but people should be allowed to have their different foods and their mosques and their temples, and their religious dress. But the right aren't saying that that isn't the case. It's just that they haven't got the term to be able to describe what they want. And the left are saying, no, no, no, no. We need to celebrate all these cultures. Well, fine, but we can celebrate those cultures, but one culture must dominate. One culture must be what binds us together. And that is our patriotism to the country, which is Britain. And that's why I call it multicultural patriotism. And what I'm hoping that everybody doesn't end up hating me, and that I don't alienate everybody, but that actually I hope to bring us closer together. Because if we don't start talking to each other, if we don't start talking to each other, we are going to have civil war on the street. That's what's going to happen. And you can see it happening in France now, right now. Just look at France and how did it start? The kids, it started with the children. So everybody who keeps telling me that children are not important. And I'll tell you why. I mean, I shouldn't say this to two guys, but that is because women historically, and rightly, have always looked after the children at home. Now, it's not always the case. And there are house husbands that I get at their exceptions. But generally speaking, it's the women at home who are looking after the children, right? There's loads of women in teaching. And it's often seen as women's work. Children is seen as women's work. And schools, like when you just said, well, education, we're going to lose people because it's not a hot topic or whatever. And you're right. I mean, what you said is right. Well, why isn't it? It should be interesting to people. Schools and children should be interesting to us all. And that is because it's women's work. And we just kind of glaze over. And we think, well, they're kids who cares. Children make up 100% of the future, right? They make up 100% of the future. I once said to Jordan Peterson, 'cause I go around to everybody. So I've been trying to banging, banging, banging, banging on your door. Every time I see Jordan Peterson, I'd say, listen to me, children matter. When he came to visit my school, I went, I said to him, you never talk about children. You never talk about schools. Because he talks about kids at home. But he never talked about schools. And he said, you're right. And I said, yeah, exactly. Now I have to say, he listened to me, because then actually he did start talking about schools. I kept saying to him, he'll keep talking about universities. He don't talk about schools. You say universities are these brainwashing machines and so on, and it's a disaster. Well, why do you think they're a disaster? Because the kids have already been brainwashed before they arrive at university, right? And then when they're 25 and they're on the streets protesting every Saturday, we all say, what's going on? I don't say what's going on. I know what's going on. I've been shouting about it for 25 years. That's why we were just saying that I've been on your podcast loads, and you've been very kind, and you have tried to give a voice to the sorts of things that I've been saying. But nobody's listening, and then I started this podcast, and I started my podcast deliberately, because I thought, what is the point of my podcast? The point of my podcast is to say to everybody, every single episode is rooted in childhood. Everything I'm talking about always comes back to children, and I will talk about political events that have happened. So my podcast this week is about Englishness and Britishness. Next week, my plan is to look at France. All of it is always rooting back into childhood, because I need to persuade everybody just how important children are, because we've forgotten that children are the future, and children, look, if we care about Britain, if we care about the future of the country, we have to care about our children, and we have to care about what we're teaching them. And that's what I'm hoping. I'm hoping multicultural patriotism, and for all your viewers who have maybe some friends on the left, or when the book finally comes out, well, actually, this will air on the day it's coming out. Get them a copy of the book for Christmas. Get them a copy of the book, because I genuinely think that a left-leaning person, I think you'll find, if your audience gets to their left-leaning friends the book, I think they'll find that they're suddenly able to connect a bit more with them, and that the left-leaning friends might listen to them a bit more, and go, "Oh, I see where you're coming from now." That's what I'm hoping. I'm just hoping it'll bridge the right and the left a bit, because otherwise, well, I don't know, we're stuffed otherwise. Many people know C.S. Lewis as a man who wrote Narnia. Fewer know he spent years as an atheist before becoming one of the best known Christian writers of the 20th century. Hillsdale College's free online course, C.S. Lewis on Christianity, follows that journey and takes his arguments seriously. Across seven lessons, Professor Michael Ward, a leading Lewis scholar takes you through Lewis's case for objective morality, his advice on prayer, and his thoughts on heaven and hell. It also tackles the hardest question of all. How can a good God allow suffering? Lewis answered it twice. First, as a thinker in the problem of pain, then as a grieving husband in a grief observed. This is one of more than 43 courses Hillsdale offers on the constitution, the Roman Republic, the American founding, Genesis, World War II, and more, all built the same way, tall properly, not dumbed down. I couldn't recommend Hillsdale's courses more highly. Go to Hillsdale.edu/trigger to enroll. It's totally free. Encounter the faith and wisdom of C.S. Lewis. Start right now at Hillsdale.edu/trigger. And we also have to be honest about this as well. And as some everyone can now drink, as someone who talked for around about 12 years, both from the secondary and primary. Look, it's a curriculum, but it's as well the people delivering the curriculum, Catherine. I mean, you look at the National Education Union. They described reform as a far-right party. I mean, let's be honest, this is embarrassing. Yes. Yeah. No, no, that's right. That's right. But they're the leftist identitarians. They're the, they're way over there. Like they're never going to lose. But you say the leftist identitarians, Catherine, that's the biggest education union in the country. No, I agree. I agree. I agree, but I'm not, I'm not going to persuade them. So, I'm picking the people in the middle. You know, leaning left, leaning right. At the moment, even they are not talking to each other, even they, right? So the people who are diversities, are strength no matter what, forget about them. I'm talking about the liberal multiculturalists is what I call them, who lean to the left, who think to themselves. Well, of course, we've got our different cultures and that's a nice thing. And I live in Hampstead and I go and eat my sushi and my curry and it's all lovely. And I don't understand what's wrong with these people who are complaining. They're obviously far right. And those people genuinely just don't know. I agree, they just don't know what's going on. They don't, they don't know what's going on in the streets. They don't know what's going on in Blackpool and in Brotherham and so, they have no idea. And they don't even know what's going on in Peckham or in Brent, you know, like they just have no idea. And what I'm hoping is that the book will open a window for them, for them to start going, oh, well, I've never thought about this. Let me think about this differently. And then, I don't know, for those who are under 30, we have a huge job to do there because they really have this oppressor, oppressor narrative. And when people don't believe, just go and talk to some of them and say to them, tell me what you know about history. Just tell me what you know. And every event in history that they will put forward to you will be one that fits the paradigm of oppressor oppressed. And that's why when we then see, you know, like as I say, it could be a, it could be JK Rowling. Well, she's the oppressor. It could be the Palestine Israel situation. Well, Israel is the oppressor that they will then interpret everything that way. And then they think to themselves, well, how do we make the world better? Well, if only somebody had killed baby Hitler, we would have saved millions of people. That is genuinely how they're interpreting the world. I just think, Catherine, if we're being honest, we need to talk about the people who are involved in education, not all teachers, of course not. But I come back to the point about the National Education Union. This is the biggest union in the country. This represents the vast majority of teachers. And they say, and they put out statements about recognizing Palestine reform being a far right party. And that to me, that's not just a National Education Union. That shows a deeper corruption of the profession itself. - I agree. (laughs) I agree, I just, you know, I don't know, I doubt I don't know what to do about. I don't know what to do about that. Especially with the current government that's in power and that's not going to change, not in any time soon, you know. So I always think to myself, you know that, that kind of poem or, you know, where it says, "Give me God, give me the courage to know." - It's a ready to press. - The serenity, there we go. We need to know the difference between the things that I can change and the things I cannot change, the wisdom to know the difference, you know. I can't change that. But I'm hoping I can change those who lean left and who lean right. And both of us on the left and the right need to change. And my idea of multicultural patriotism is something that, while it seems offensive to both in the first instance, actually could be the thing that binds us together. And then if those who lean to the left and those who lean to the right are brought together, we become a much stronger entity as people that kind of sensible people in the center who disagree about things, but we can disagree openly and happily and able to have conversations. And then the extremes are, well, forget them. We in the middle here, we need to try and save the country, right? We need to save the country. 'Cause I, you know, look, I know a lot of people on the left have said something wrong with the country, why are you too? Why are you pretending there are issues? But I think because they just don't realize. They don't know. They don't see the footage that some of us will see when we're online when you see the footage of the things going on in various parts of the country, but also about what's going on in schools and what children are saying. My views come from what I know children are taught and how they speak and what they think. I know this, right? And it's interesting because teachers would find it hard to disagree with me. I'd love to find the school that doesn't have a, let's celebrate your own flag day, let's celebrate your culture day, let's celebrate your food day and everybody brings in their own foods and their own flags and so on. I'd love to know whether or not they have British flags outside their school. I'd love to know whether or not they sing God Save the King every day. I am most certain that they do not. And who knows? Maybe you will get a flood of calls after this, people writing in and saying, "That Katherine Bribble sing, how ridiculous, "the school next door to me, they have a flag outside, "I hear them singing God Save the King, isn't it wonderful?" Maybe we'll hear that. And then they'll, maybe they'll send the history curriculum that they're all being taught and it will be similar to the one that we teach at Michaela. I suspect not, right? And because I know what I'm talking about. And I'm trying to tell people because people also don't know. So people send their kids to school. They have no idea what they're learning in school. So this is ever since I gave my speech in 2010. So you asked about my story before and what I didn't explain was in 2010. I was basically kicked out of the profession and I was kicked out of the teaching profession 'cause I dared to speak at the Conservative Party conference. I'm not a Conservative. I mean, I'm a small-sea Conservative. I'm not a big-sea Conservative. And I spoke at the Conservative Party conference because I was invited there. And I spoke about how I thought the system was broken. I am still saying the same thing 16 years later, right? I'm saying the same thing. And the system is broken because none of us are looking at what happens in school. And after that 2010 speech, I then went to try and set up a free school because I wanted to show people what was possible in a school, okay? And I talk about this in the book and I set up this school called Michaela in Wembley and it has a whole load of kids who are coming from various different immigrant backgrounds. Just the other day, they went to see in Wembley. They went to see England play the Czech Republic and we won, you'll be pleased to know. And our kids were in the stands with St. George's crosses painted on their cheeks and flags and everything and they were belting out God save the king. Now they do this naturally, they don't think about it. It's just who part of who they are because that is how we have raised them, right? Now the fact is that if every school were doing this in the country, we would not have the problems we've got now. So rather than, you know, for those people on the right who are jumping even further to the right and they're thinking to themselves, well look, I mean it's brown and black people who are the problems. So let's just, it makes me feel better to jump further to the right and talk about how we're going to send everybody home. Well, okay, you can talk about how you're sending me home, but it's not going to happen. So let's just be real for a moment here. It's not going to happen. And if it did happen, well that would be an interesting economic discussion, I have no idea. But even if it did happen, do you know what white kids think like these days? Do they know what the majority white schools are like and what the behavior is like? And like, it's this idea that we move out all the brown and black people that all these white kids will just magically appear and be church-going, beautiful citizens who have all the same old, small-sea conservative values of yesterday year. No, they don't have those values either. None of our young people have those values of personal responsibility, a duty towards others, a sacrificing something that's important to your tribe for the sake of the whole because patriotism is what matters, right? Gratitude, kindness, decency, all of these sorts of values, being resilient, you know, stoical, jumping over obstacles, not saying I'm a victim, I'm a victim, but instead thinking, where's the obstacle? Let me jump it, you know? That sort of attitude has completely disappeared and why has it disappeared? That's what we need to be asking. Not whose fault is it, it's his tribe, it's her tribe, it's not to do with my tribe. And in fact, I'm just going to bunker down with my tribe and end up with my tribe on my own. That's all wrong. And if we continue the way we're going, even if you got rid of all the brown and black people, the country would be finished, right? We need to stop those on the center right who are jumping over to the right. Don't do that. Embrace multicultural patriotism. And those of us on the left who see the more extreme right growing in numbers, those of us on the left here need to say, okay, wait a minute, maybe there is a point, maybe diversity really isn't our strength. Maybe you can have diversity under one umbrella, under one binding idea, which is Britain and have patriotism be the thing that holds us together. And so we get multicultural patriotism. That is what we need. That is what I write about in my book. That is what I try and persuade people to do. And I think people on the right and the left, I have a whole chapter dedicated to what the right gets wrong, lots about the stuff of white guilt and so on. It has to be said. It is mainly the left really that is, I charge with the stuff on the way in which they talk about racism, white guilt and the destruction of our small sea conservative values. That is, you know, that's the kind of the first part of the book. And that is, well, it's worth reading. It's an easy read and I think that if we all try and embrace the ideas in the book, I just hope we can get it into the national conversation so people can actually have a term, a vocabulary. I'm often watching people on podcasts, I don't know, in news interviews and so on. I watch them talking about multiculturalism and every time I think what you want is multicultural patriotism. Every time I'm listening, I'm like, they don't have the vocabulary. They don't have the narrative. I want to give you the narrative here. Have this, have this, talk about this because everybody's not sure how to talk about these issues. Look, two things, multicultural patriotism, children, I can just get people talking about those two things I would have succeeded with the book. And one of the things you actually talk about in the book and you talk about, it's really interesting the way you discuss it, is you talk about this idea of parallel schools because of mobile phone years. Yes, that's a very good point. And I never actually thought about it like that, but it is quite literally a parallel school because kids are going online and they're learning all of this stuff. Exactly. Exactly. So it's combination and I didn't, thank you. I don't know why I haven't mentioned it, it's a bit silly of me. Yes, you've got what's happening in the home. You've got what's happening in schools and then you've got what's happening online. And what's happening online is destroying the country and people don't get this. They don't understand and they let their kids just sit online and their kids are being totally brainwashed by what is going on online. And look, it's a parallel school. Actually, I shouldn't even say, I shouldn't have called it parallel school because it doesn't, it does more damage than school. Because it's not just when you're in school. It's also, one, they spend hours and hours and hours on there, you know, six, seven, eight, nine hours a day, a day, right? Honestly, sometimes you think, well, these kids have a full-time job online, that's what, just being online. Watching all the same stuff that is telling them things that are not true. Things in the dynamic of the paradigm of oppressor, oppress, that's how they're taught everything online. And so, but it's not just then they leave school and then they're at university and they're online all of the time. And then they're 25, 26, 27 and they're online all of the time. So when I come along and say, I think Charlie Kirk was a good man, they genuinely can't understand what I'm saying. They just think I'm mad. Well, it works both ways and I actually think it's, with technology, it's worse than what you said. And they're watching things that aren't true. I don't think that's true. I think what they're watching is a selection of things that are true that are not representative of the reality in its co-herent context. So for example, if you're on the left, you will be served, you know, Charlie Kirk is a fascist, the videos of from Gaza, well, actually it's from Syria 10 years ago, but pretending to be from Gaza, et cetera. And if you're on the right, you know, you might be watching endless clips of black people beaten up a white guy, right? And then both of these groups are marinating in the stuff. And it's true that those black people did beat up that one white person. But that isn't what's happening on the streets in London if you're walking around. But if you sit in your room all day long, then eventually you get to the point where that becomes your complete reality. Which is why, you know, we've had Jonathan Hy on the show and we will again to talk about the impact of social media and phones on children, this is something obviously you're very, very strict on, at Michaela, and I think-- And I have been campaigning on this for years. For years I've been talking about this and nobody would listen to me. Do you think we should be banning phones in all schools in the country? Oh, well, that goes with that, say. Oh, so what else would you suggest? It should, phones should be banned to children all together. They should not have phones. In the same way as we don't allow them to have cigarettes, we don't allow them to drink alcohol, we don't allow them to access porn. In fact, we do allow them to access porn because they do it on their phones. So we're lying to ourselves when we're saying we're denying them all these other things because actually the phones give them access to all those things. They should not be watching beheadings and rapes and, you know, violence of the type that they are watching online. And then that is-- the poison that that is is then immersed in this idea of oppressor oppressed. And like, when you were just saying about, oh, it's actually from Syria, but it's from Gaza and so on, stuff they're watching. They're being given a vision, which is just in the end, it just isn't true what they're seeing. So we don't understand. They're young. Their minds are impressionable. The brain doesn't stop growing until 25. So they soak up all of this stuff and we don't understand it. And so I give lots of examples of this and explain it all in my book. I mean, the fact is that we don't understand what's happening to their worldview. So that's why they genuinely-- it's when I'm talking to people who really want to understand what I'm saying. They don't understand. What do you mean, Charlie Kirk is not evil? They simply can't see it in any other way. Ah. You said something else, which has become more prevalent. People talk about the risk of people who phrase it differently and you always want to be careful with this stuff, but you mention civil war. And you mentioned in your book, you talk about this, that people effectively, young people are self-silowing. People will-- I mean, there's a passage in your book that I just found terrifying if true, which is that in many schools, children from different ethnic backgrounds will only sit with each other. Yes. And if they do sit with each other. it's because they all identify against Britain. So there is one way in which children from different backgrounds and so on can be friends in most places, you know? The one way in which they are together is that they are all victims together and they don't like Britain, right? So that's the one thing that'll bring them together. Otherwise, yes, they will be split into their different groups. - And is that why you talk about the rupture in society, breaking out into violence, eventually? Or is there more to it than that? - Well, I mean, you see what's happening in France, for instance, so you see the various news items that are happening and you see, oh, that's just a little trigger there, a little trigger there. It's happening here, it's happening there. If you think about the way in which Britain was in 1995, it wasn't the way that it is now, things have got, so in some ways, in terms of racism and so on, things have got better, right? In some ways, you know, you had Stephen Lawrence in 1994, you had various issues when we think about 1980s, there were riots and so on. And even in 1994, I remember when I was in Brixton, there were riots then and so on. So, but look at what's happening in France now. Look at what, when we think about the grooming gangs and so on, this is just things have got worse, right? In many ways, in some ways, they've got better when it comes to race relations, I mean. So I know this personally. Seven, eight years ago, if I posted online, I don't know, my children celebrating, you know, the England winning, singing God Save the King and so on, I only got attacks from the left. Now I get loads of attacks from the right, right? Telling us to go home and so on and so forth. I want to talk about the fringe of the right, I think. Can you say that? One of my teachers, and she's quite progressive. I wouldn't consider her to be on the right at all. She was at a party and somebody came up to her and said, we're going to be sending your boss home, you know? And I thought, sorry, so this isn't just online. This is actually in person, where my teachers are being told that their boss is going to have to leave the country because her boss is brown or black. I mean, like, the fact is, that kind of thing would never have happened before. Yeah, well, this was what I was going to say, is you say race relations have improved. I think they improved up until a certain point and what I see now is a regression. That's right. And the regression is because of the pushing of diversity is our strength. Exactly, which is what I argue in the book. And they've radicalized, well, the entire country has been radicalized by each other's ideologies now. And so the more prominent portion of the fringe of the right is effectively doing the identity politics for white people and exactly the way they're actually many sensible people. I think probably yourself included have been predicting what happened if this woke insanity was pursued in the way that it has. Exactly. And that's where we are. And that's why a lot of us have this concern, the divisions of such, that if this is allowed to continue. And if we don't adopt this sort of model that you're talking about, we'll be in trouble. The people who watch this show have generally done more thinking about how governments operate the most. But there's a difference between understanding the problem and having actually built insulation against it. That's a world, Michael Thoroughop, operates in. He's been living as an expat for over 25 years, visiting more than 110 countries, and calling nine of them home. He founded expat money nearly a decade ago to help others do the same. When he helps someone build an international plan be the knowledge he brings is entirely first and every recommendation comes from something he has already done himself. Expat money works specifically with freedom-minded families and investors who want to reduce their exposure on any one government or any one system. Second residency, second citizenship, offshore banking, international real estate, legal structures that spread your life across borders. Michele has put together a free report called Plan B Residencies and Instant Citizenships. It covers five routes to a second passport, including one that almost never gets discussed. How a foreign residency functions as genuine political insurance, which countries actually make sense, depending on what you're trying to protect, and what it realistically costs. Go to expatmoney.com/trigger or click the link in the description of this episode to download the report. There's no charge, no catch. That's expatmoney.com/trigger. - I built Michaela and my teachers and I, we built Michaela with the idea of demonstrating what was possible in terms of schools, you know? So when I say in terms of schools, what is possible? It's possible to teach children well so that they can know their algebra and so on and do well in their GCSEs. But it's also possible to have children grow up with a sense of duty towards their country, a sense of duty towards their families, to their teachers, to believe in something bigger than just themselves. Now, the small-sea conservative values that we give our children, which I've been talking about incessantly for years, people tend to just disregard that. People know about me because we get great results. We get great GCSE and A-level results and people know about that. People know about me because I'm a strict as some headmistress in Britain, you know? And they think, oh, she's that strict teacher and she's the teacher who can tell kids off and, you know, good for her and so on will great. But we miss what's really magical about Michaela, which is the way in which the children are so polite. You come visit our school. They're so polite and well behaved. They're so kind to each other. They're so grateful to their teachers. They are decent people. If you go on the buses nowadays and see the children on the buses, do you want to stay on the bus? I mean, you want to get off because they're shouting and screaming and they're horrible. Now, the thing is, is that I've been shouting, I have been shouting about this for years and we haven't understood that those children on those buses, well, they're now 25 and 30 years old, right? They're the ones in the streets doing, disrupting in ways that we find horrifying. And it used to be a fringe, right? And in any society, you'll always have a fringe and who cares, but they're growing in number. And that is because the over 75-year-olds, where one in 33 believe that violence against your political opponent is justified to one in four believing that and even half of them when you're looking at the progressive ones. And I refer to that because people like polls, they like kind of evidence. Where's your evidence, Catherine? I mean, I don't need any evidence. It's just bloody obvious. Just go and visit your local school. See if you can get in. This is what I always say to people. So don't believe me, go and visit a school. Oh, they won't let you in, will they? Oh, funny that. I wonder why they won't let you in the doors. Oh, you just asked to spend the day, did you? Anybody wants to come visit my school? They can come visit. There are tours that happen every day. We get a thousand visitors every year that come to visit the school. And the children will take you around in a tour and you'll sit and have lunch as you've done. The fact of the matter is, anyone can come to my school. You try and get into the local school and you're where you are. They're not going to let you in. And if they do, it'll be in October when they have a few tours for the year six families to come around and see. And look, I did this all my life. All the parents, I always used to come by my classroom. They never went down corridor D. (laughing) You are put, you are sent down certain corridors to see the best teachers. And because people don't know what they're looking for, and the kids seem to be kind of okay and then they go home. And then all the naughty kids come out of the hiding places when the parents have gone. People don't actually see what's going on in schools. They don't see it. Not only that, but you're not listening to the kinds of values that when you go around at CS school, even when you come to my school, you're not going to see what we teach them in history. You're not going to see the details of how we teach religious education or geography. Do we teach the geography of the country? Or do we do something else, right? Do we teach about recycling? Or do we teach about the lake district? You know, like that is the people don't care. They send their kid to school and they think, well he's gone to school, it's fine. They don't think about the content that their child is being taught. And they don't think that the content is going to have an inevitable consequence on how they think when they are older. - And but is there's also a point as well, Catherine, which is they look not your school, but I've taught in a lot of schools. And most schools are fundamentally chaotic. They're fundamentally chaotic when it comes to behaviour. I wrote a whole book about it. I've had teachers come up to me going, well I wouldn't have said it, but you said it. Which is depressing in the first instance. But in the second instance. - You were only talking about primary. - Yeah, primary and secondary, which I told you. - So secondary is a hundred times worse than primary, right? - I told secondary and I know it, but my point is something else. What we're teaching kids in those schools is something very profound, which is if you muck around, if you disrupt the lesson, if you behave badly, not only will you get away with it, but you'll get indulged. The kids who turn up every single day and do the work and work hard and don't cause any problems, you will get zero attention. Because all the attention will go on the world. I used to call them the headliners in the class who will go along and cause mayhem and disruption. - That's right, that's right. Now, like, for instance, I have at Nikkei La, so I personally, every six months, weeks or so, I'm given a printout of the merits and de-marits that each teacher is giving out. And I have to see that more merits by five times are being given out over de-marits. And then the heads of year are monitoring to see are the good kids being given merits. Because you know as a teacher that often what happens is the naughty kids are given the merits. And the reason why the naughty kids are given the merits is because you're desperately just trying to get them to behave as a teacher. Because the sisters in the school are not strict enough to help you. So the only way in which you can keep those children behaving is by basically bribing them in some kind of way and trying to be friendly with them. That's the only way you can do it. Now those habits, what you're talking about there, is ritual formation. The ritual formation of those children, the habits that are being given to those children is, oh wait a minute. I mean I need to be naughty in order to get noticed, oh I need to be bad in order to get attention. And so they learn how to do that. And everybody is corrupted over time. So when they then behave like that at 25, they are behaving like that at 25 because they learn that when they were 12. And also they then go on social media, behave like that and then they get re-tweets, shares all of this because they have, and we see this both on the left and the right. You've had people on the left behaving terribly and you have people on the right saying terrible things, you're doing terrible things or whatever it may be and they get that validation. That's exactly that. And that just happens right the way through society. Constantine always talks about this, incentives, what type of behaviour are you incentivising for? Incentives are everything. Not just with children, it's with human beings. Exactly. Okay, let's say we've adopted your framework for society, but what strikes me in unite discuss this when I visited your school, which by the way is an amazing experience. And it really, really special to see. Well, tell your viewers the date- I just did. No, but I'm- Well, I should tell your viewers that if you want to come and visit the school, all they need to do is go on the website and they find the visitor's page and they sign up and they give us the dates they want to come and they are welcome to come and see what is possible, what is possible in a school. Anyway, go on. Well, and that's really important. But what strikes me, and this, I hear your point about these people on the right and the left, they're never going to hear your message and there's no point focusing on them because you're not going to change that. But the reality is, Catherine, you're one person, you're a very special person, not just because you have those values, but because you're a leader, and I know what you have to- you don't get teachers in your school coming in ready to teach in the way that you've created the school. You have to whip them into shape in the same way that, you know, when people come and work for us, we have to get great people, and then you, you know, encourage them to think about the world in a certain way, and that helps them think I have to be. And then we are a great team together. Yes. But to do that, you have to have a cast memberable seeing in every school in a country and we don't. So what do we do about that? Well, like I say, we have to start small, and in the first instance, we've got a whole bunch of people in the middle leaning left and leaning right who don't speak to each other. We literally are incapable of speaking to each other. We have to try and fix that in the first instance and try and get people, when it comes to the diversity conversation, right, to the reason why I have multicultural patriotism as the thing that I want us talking about is that once we are united by that and an understanding that we all want the same thing, the whole British and Englishness debate, in the end, you guys are actually saying the same thing. You understand? Yes, I understand. And the fact is, we get lost in this conversation. Yes, that's right, but I am taking—you've been bashing me over the head for many years. I have been sufficiently bashed over the head now, and I'm taking your argument seriously, and your argument is, if every school in the country was like your school, we'd have a different society. Having visited your school, I completely agree. My question to you is, how do we get to that point? Okay. The thing in life is that we spend—often people on the progressive left, they spend too much time always saying the problem is out there, the problem is out there. All we can ever do in life is to look inward. All we can do is look to ourselves, look inside ourselves, look to our families, look to our communities, and think, what are we doing wrong, and how can we be better, right? And I think that if each one of us—and that ultimately is what I'm trying to argue in the book—we have to be brave, all of us—and all of us shy away from those difficult conversations, all of us—when we think, oh, but he might think I'm racist, oh, he might think X-Fine Zed, oh, I'm not going to say anything, actually, we need to be brave, and we need to—we need to say what we think, and we need to be brave to talk to somebody who thinks differently to us. And we need to be brave to look outside of our own little bubble and think, well, let me try and understand what the other side is saying. What I try and achieve in the book very much is that whenever I'm explaining any political point—talking about any political point of view, I try and explain it. I try and say, look, I don't agree with this point of view, but let me just have a go at explaining what this side thinks, you know, and I'm trying to do that because I'm trying to show I'm not just shutting down and saying, oh, there it is, I actually do understand what you think. Now let me—I'm going to explain what I think you think, and now I'm going to engage with it, and I'm going to show you why it is I disagree with that position. And if all of us were to think like that and to think, well, do I actually understand, do I actually understand what the person who disagrees with me thinks, and is my position reasonable? You know, for all of us to be thinking like that, to be intellectually curious, to be a thinker, it's the only way—too many of us look for the political Superman who's going to come and save us all. There is no political Superman. There is just you and me. That's who needs to change. We need to change, and the first step in changing is to try and understand what the other thinks, and then to engage with it. And that's why I'm hoping with the book that whether you're on the right or the left, that people will engage with it, and will give it to their friend who is on the other side, you know, and have them read it. And then talk about the ideas and actually try and connect with them. Often we don't do that. Often we just think, you know what, I'll just be quiet on that issue because otherwise we're going to fall out. We need to talk about this stuff because I do think we are—you know, when I say, oh my goodness, there will be civil war. I don't mean tomorrow. I don't know when it's coming. I have to say, you know, for the last—since we opened the school in 2014, I was always saying, it's the end of the West, it's the end of the West, and all my stuff would laugh at me. They're not laughing at me now, you know? And I have to say, I didn't think it was going to happen this quickly. When I used to say it's the end of the West, I used to say in a hundred years, you know, in a hundred years, I had no idea this was going to happen in 12 years that I'd be saying, oh my goodness, actually I can see it happening right now. And the West is worth fighting for. The West is, you know, we're in this amazing building right now. The architecture, the art, the music, the history, the amazing things, all the inventions, everything that the West has brought us, it's something that we should all be so grateful for. And we need to fight to preserve it. And if we just take it for granted because we think that this is normal, this is not normal, right? It's not normal to have traffic lights that go green, amber, and red, and people stop and go. It's not normal to have parking rules and to park and that it all works. It's not normal to go into a shop and that you exchange things and nobody's fighting over things, nobody's stealing things right in front of you. This isn't normal. I mean, you know this, you know, and you know this, I mean, both of you know this. You know, like, we need to understand how fragile it is and we need to look after it. And who is going to look after it? Who is going to look after it in 20 years? Our children. Right? We have to understand how crucially important our children are to the future of the West. And that is the number one thing I'm trying to achieve with the book that diversity is not our strength. And it's to try and persuade the adults in the room that we need to be adults and we need to look after our children. Catherine Bowles saying thank you so much for coming on the show. It really is a book worth reading and I hope many, many people do. And by the way, contrary to our reputation, a hell of a lot of left-wing people watch and listen to trigonometry. All right. So, if you are like that, buy a book for your right-leaning friends who need to be dialed in a bit. And watch my podcast, "Strictly Education," because that's also, it's also to persuade people of the importance of children. Catherine, thank you for coming on head on over to TriggerPod.co.uk where Catherine is going to answer your questions. How do you ensure that your staff are adhering to your ethos and do you have the means to train other educational establishments to follow your methodology? Yeah. So, well, okay. Guys, let us take a minute to recommend another podcast. Did you know the average podcast listener has six shows in rotation. So you're most likely not just listening to trigonometry. Wait. So we know you're cheating on us. This is a discreet. Right. Right. Right. Right. Really? Absolutely. Just like trigonometry, Jordan hosts weekly mind-broadening conversations with some of the most fascinating people in the world. But a key difference that I'm a big fan of is that Jordan is focused on pulling actionable growth orientate and advice from his guests. I'm looking at his episode list now. There's an episode here where Jordan talks to a hostage negotiator from the FBI who lays out his techniques on how to get people to do what you want them to do by making them like and trust you. Sounds just like me. Except, you know, I'm more SAS. You can't go wrong with adding the Jordan Harbinger show to your podcast rotation. Search for the Jordan Harbinger show. That's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R. On Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.