We speak to Hasan Piker... Is he a liability for the dems?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Choiceology. An original podcast from Charles Schwab is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Join host Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to Choiceology at Schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen. How many streaming subscriptions do you have? Is it the same for your business? Avoid it by having all your business on one platform. Try Odo for free at odo.com. That's oddo.com. One of the most controversial, one of the most influential people certainly on the American left is a man called Hassan Piker. Hassan Piker is a Twitch streamer. He is someone who has captured the imaginations of many people, particularly young people. And has tried to force the Democratic Party into adopting positions on the progressive left that many in the party do not want to adopt. Still, he is someone who has energized enormous numbers of Americans. And particularly, in this midterm election cycle, he has been a very, very big figure indeed. I'm going to talk to Hassan Piker. Welcome to America's. America's from BBC News. Whatever you want to talk about Odo, keep my wife's name. The hell out of your mouth because she's way out of your league. The tide is coming and this time we intend to win it all. So he doesn't want to do the job. He wants to build his ballroom and travel with Natalie on their apparently defenseless flying palace, gifted by the Amir of Qatar. When I'm not around, you're going to be broke. There's not going to be anybody to report on. Nobody gives a damn about anybody else. Hello, it's Sarah. I'm in Dearborn, Michigan today. And it's Justin in the World Wide Headquarters of America. It's in London, England. And it is Marianna sitting next to Justin in the World Wide Headquarters. Right. We are going to get to Michigan in just a second to say those well before we get going that Hassan Piker is going to join us later. Hassan Piker, who is, we say this loosely sometimes about people, but it's genuinely the case with him, an enormously controversial figure, a really genuinely controversial figure. A figure despised by some, adored by others. He makes his money in your world, Marianna, on Twitch. Yeah, and essentially he's a streamer, right? So what he does is he streams himself gaming, doing other stuff, and then he talks about politics. And he is hugely, hugely popular on the left of politics, especially the kind of far left of politics. And in lots of ways, he has made politics cool again on the left in a way that Kamala Harris didn't really. Right. That's a brilliant introduction to him. And we will be talking to him and hearing from him later on. But first, Sarah, let's go to you and what you're doing in Michigan. Yeah, well, I've come here to look at the Senate race between Abdul-Elsaid and Mike Rogers, because this is a really, really telling election. You have got a pretty tight race between Democrats and Republicans for the Senate seat here at a time when Democrats are doing incredibly well, according to the polls anyway, in really deep red Republican states. And yet here in Michigan, which is a swing state, really, why are they not doing better? One reason is the candidate that they have chosen, who surprisingly, one in the primary, he is more left wing than the party's establishment would want. And there has been a real flashpoint around this campaign about Israel Gaza as well. And he is very clear on wanting to end military aid to Israel and really thoroughly condemning what's happened in Gaza. And that's made things rather controversial as well. So there's a possibility that his candidacy could allow the Republicans to win this seat at a time when, as we know the Senate, could come down to just one seat either way. If he does win here, that will really boost progressive candidates like him into the 2028 primaries for the presidential candidate. And a lot of people will say that we'll give them a really good shot at getting a more left wing candidate for that presidential election. So what happens here is going to be pretty crucial in determining the future. Yeah, it's just it's really worth just before we hear from both these candidates. And we will do and we'll hear from their last debate and the things that they've said to kind of get people can get the measure of the two of them then. It's worth really doubling down on that point, isn't it, Sarah? If Abdullah side wins, that is a boost for the left of the party that is really big. In part, because he's in the Senate, so he's got a voice and a voice right in the heart of American government. And it's things like health care for all, as an oral medicare for all, which is what they call it, this idea that everyone should be able to have government health insurance. These huge things that he has really gone for and tried to popularize, the party will have to take note of him if he's there. And that's right, Justin. And of course, his more and left-wing colleagues like for instance, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the representative from New York will use this as a springboard. She's been here in Michigan and campaigning with El Said and saying if he can win here in Michigan, then we, meaning the progressive end of the party, can win anywhere. And that was pretty clear, signal to her presidential ambitions. But what's interesting is this seat is tight enough that we're getting visits from very different kinds of politicians as well. And I'm here at the moment because Barack Obama is coming in a couple of days to do a big rally. Kamala Harris has been here. So the Democratic Party are really having to throw their big stars at this and people who can maybe persuade slightly more conservative parts of the state, black voters, Jewish voters who are upset about El Said's stance on Israel persuade them to still come out and vote for a Democrat in a state that they really do need to win if they're going to control the Senate. Okay, as promised, then, here's the two men, Mike Rogers and Adela Said, and the last, the second and last, to their two debates. These were key moments. So being bought off by the Muslim Brotherhood, having donors to his campaign from Hamas, that's support. Hezbollah is not a problem. If you are going to go to the United States Senate, we need to know, are you for America or are you for these terrorist groups overseas? He keeps raising this question about this association with an organization I've never been a part of because of my mom who's a nurse in Missouri. It doesn't make any sense and it's actually really quite beneath you. Mike, it's really quite beneath you. It's a call and a question. My loyalty to the Constitution, I'm talking. I'm talking. I'm talking. Okay, and then Donald Trump posted on truth social in the usual fashion, but with some errors saying, Mike Rogers, the great American Patriot, I'm a public and kind of the US Senate from Michigan, completely obliterated Mohammed al-Sahed, not his name, in the big debate tonight. If this was a fight, they would have stopped it. Mohammed is a jihadist lunatic who hates our country, the black people of Detroit and wants to see the US fail. Sarah, thanks. No, thank you for your attention to this message. No, it's a pity about that. No, thank you for your attention, but still Sarah, a lot to unpack. Yes, there certainly is. So we'll start with Abdul al-Sahed's name. Mohammed is his middle name, but Donald Trump uses it as often as he can, and so do lots and lots of other Republicans, because they are trying to stress that he's a Muslim and trying to suggest that he is, therefore, somehow different, other, un-American. There's been quite a lot of this in this election with other Muslim candidates as well, and it really, really annoys al-Sahed and it's possible they've gone a little bit too far with this as well, and that they might be driving people to the Democrats as a result of this, but as well as suggesting that they are trying to tie him quite closely to the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization based out of Egypt, which is being called a terrorist organization with links all over the world. Now he has said very clearly that he has nothing to do with them, but the Republicans are trying to say that there have been contributions to his campaign that have come from individuals connected with the Muslim Brotherhood, and also that his mother back in the 70s worked for an organization that was aligned with them, and even if that were the case, he wasn't brought up by his mother, he lived with his father and his stepmother from the age of three. It's, this is pretty tenuous, some of this stuff, but it is being used to suggest he would be a national security threat. You've got people like Senator Ted Cruz posting that if he's elected and if he's put on the Senate Intelligence Committee, then he could be in the seat of classified information that he could then feed to jihadists. So that's a bit of a stretch. It's a lot of ifs in there, and Abdul El Said has been very, very clear in saying that he doesn't support the Muslim Brotherhood and that his loyalty is to the United States, to the Constitution of the United States, and that he's a bit insulted that simply because he's a Muslim people are questioning that, and it has become pretty central feature of the campaign. If you listen to this exchange, this was him at a town hall meeting where he was taking questions from voters over the weekend and he was asked about the Muslim Brotherhood. Will you disavow him? Sure, yeah, absolutely, but I want to ask to the question that you're asking. Why are you asking the question? Well, because they're a terrorist group. Okay, no, no, but what are you implying? Do you assume that I wouldn't? Yes. Why not? Because I have not heard you disavow him yet. Have you disavow him? I haven't heard you disavow him yet. I disavow him. Do you? Great. This is not the first time people have asked those kinds of questions because do you know John F. Kennedy is? Do you know who that is? Tommy? All right. Do you know what he was asked as the first possible Catholic president of the United States? What did they ask him? You don't remember? You should read history. Tommy, when he ran for president, he was asked whether or not he was going to have allegiance to the Pope at the Vatican because of course he's Catholic. And his answer famously was that he was not running to be a Catholic president, he was running to be president and happened to be Catholic. I'm not running to be a Muslim Senator. Now this particular clip has gone so viral, like mega uber viral. So the point where people are posting on X being like, hmm, I'd never actually asked my wife if she's to survive the Muslim Brotherhood. And I think there's a number of reasons why it has gone so viral. Not least it's punchy obviously and we know that rage bait does well, like arguments do well, that kind of stuff gets traction. But there's also something about alzade, which feels quite distinct, I'd say, from some of the other democratic leaning candidates in so much as he seems kind of like young and a bit cool. And like I think his punchiness, which perhaps could turn off the kind of traditional democratic voter, or even a kind of maybe older demographic, is quite appealing to say a younger male audience who are like, yeah, actually maybe that doesn't. And this is where I feel at the moment, just looking at the social media world, the Democrats, thinking of Mandani, thinking of alzade, feel like they're surging ahead in terms of how to win those young male voters. And they're quite masculine and they're quite sort of forthright in how they express themselves in a way that Donald Trump's campaign really succeeded back in 2024. But aren't doing quite so well in that way. Yeah, I think he's summed it up. He's got this incredible forceful bro thing going on and he's really good at it. And Hassan Peku, we're going to hear from later on, is of a similar ilk, was thought of as being that the Democrats, Joe Rogan, I'm not sure they still think that because he's kind of kind of a bit further off the reservation than Joe Rogan has gone in the other direction. But anyway, we'll get to that. I know that's debatable. Well, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. Yeah. I mean, treat guys that you think that this is a clip that serves alzade very well. I don't need that at all. I think Mary was making the points, Sarah, that this clip serves alzade really well with a certain group of people, but potentially is unhelpful for his race is unhelpful for the race because it puts off a load of people who are not on Twitch and X and everything else, but have real lives and in the real world, IRL. Now, it turns out in fact that the guy who asked the question used to work for the Republican Senator Josh Hawley. He's the son of a well-known Republican strategist. But alzade didn't know that when he was having a go at him. I mean, you're right, Justin, that he's very articulate. He's very sharp. I think he's just, he's like almost too good and it just comes across as not inauthentic, but unlikable, frankly. I would say on social media, the reaction is very different. I don't think that there was that much sympathy expressed for the bloke who asked the question and most of the commentary. But this is not right. The people are certainly voting for him in this race. This is wider America or even wider world. That's the point. Even wider world, and so it's for that reason that social media is always a very sort of unreliable litmus test because you can't tell how many of those people actually live in a place where they could even cast a vote or be involved in voting. I've heard David Axelrod in recent days, the former Obama strategist, agreeing with you, Sarah, and actually doubling down on what you've just said about is it putting off other people and saying that the problem with alzade is he can't stop himself channeling the anger of this relatively small group of people and not staying focused on the things that matter. Like the price of, these are like the price of petrol, like the economy generally, like the ability of people to find a flat to live in. And he keeps being sideline. This is Axelrod's point. He keeps being sideline onto stuff that is a bit niche actually when it comes to the wider electorate. And actually in Michigan where you are, it is niche and there are unquestionably some in Michigan who they energise by what they heard in that debate. But plenty of it appears aren't being as energized as perhaps there should be. I think that's a bit unfair because that suggests that he's talking about the suggestion that he's got terrorist legs all the time. He talks about it when it's brought up and it travels a lot on social media. In fact, he's got a really disciplined campaign that's followed on from Amzora Mandani's campaign in New York with three promises that are repeated ad nauseam until everybody knows what they are. And that is Medicare for all, free health care for everybody, money out of politics, getting rid of big campaign donations, and money in your pocket. And they're incredibly disciplined about that. I spoke to a couple of students last night who were volunteering for Abdul Al-Sahiz campaign. So obviously they're supporters of his but they were really fascinating. I mean, they're like 19 years old. I think in every answer they gave me, they mentioned Medicare for all money out of politics and money in your pocket. And so they've had that drummed into them. But they were really passionate about him, incredibly passionate about his policies, but didn't even call themselves Democrats. They said they wouldn't have voted for Kamala Harris in 2024 if they'd been old enough to vote. They probably wouldn't have voted in the selection at all if Haley Stevens, who ran against Abdul Al-Sahiz in the primary, had become the candidate. So if there was a moderate mainstream Democratic candidate, they wouldn't even bother to vote. And yet here they are, out every day knocking on doors, handing out leaflets, organizing events because they're so enthused by Abdul Al-Sahiz. So that's, I mean, that's very interesting. And typical of the way that young people seem to be more left-wing and more engaged and more excited than the rest of the electorate. But of course there's a flip side to all of that, which is that all of the things that they like about Abdul Al-Sahiz are putting off some older, more conservative voters. And it's close, Sarah, isn't it? It is. And it should be said that Al-Sahiz defined the polls a few months ago to win the primary. And the polls suggested that his more moderate opponent, Haley Stevens, would win that. And so, you know, maybe he's running further ahead than we know about. But yeah, at the moment it looks very tight. And so we could be watching a really interesting night when it comes to the election results with Democrats picking up seats, picking up states in the Senate. You never thought we would see them winning. Haven't seen them winning for decades in like Texas and Kansas. But not winning somewhere that should be an easy pick up like Michigan or maybe Maine, where I'm going to be seeing you in about a week's time, Justin. If they fail to win seats that they ought to be able to get, like Michigan and Maine, then huge triumphs in Texas and Kansas will be, you know, will be wiped out by their losses. So it's going to be fascinating to watch across the country what they are and are not able to do. Okay, it's time to talk to Hassan Piker now. Before I do that, though, let me give you a flavor. In case you are not a Hassan Piker Twitch addict, a flavor of what he actually does. So it's his show and not even sure that's the right word, but it's his appearance on Twitch in which thousands and thousands of people message him and he responds to those messages. Let me give you just a flavor of what that feels like and sounds like. Dude, I'm not going to lie. The fact of the crowd was cheering for Nuking San Diego and Los Angeles, like, because they didn't hear him that way. They didn't hear him as like, oh, it's a small price to pay. We're saving Los Angeles. We're saving San Diego. They heard, let's let Iran nuke San Diego. Let's let Iran nuke Los Angeles. They were like, hell yeah. And I know there are plenty of liberals who would say the same about our Kansas. Say the same about Alabama. I'm not one of those people, obviously. I think that kind of politicking is dumb. It's silly. But would the Republicans ever let a Democrat get away with saying something like this? Absolutely not. They would never in a million years. And we must not let the Republicans get away with saying this either. Is that simple? When Republicans say, oh, you guys got paid protesters at our town halls. They're simply projecting. They're lying. They do it all the time. So their assumption is the Democrats must be doing the same. Okay. That's the Hassan Pica performance. Let us talk to the man himself now who joins us on the line. Hassan Pica, thank you so much for talking to America. Great to be here. Can we start with what's going on in Michigan? We've just been talking about Michigan and the Michigan race. And I want to play to you, first of all, an attack ad. So this is an attack ad by Mike Rogers, the Republican against Abdul Al-Said. It's an attack ad from back in September, but it's an attack ad that has you in it. Let's listen. After serving in the army, I became a street agent in the FBI. I worked for years to help bring Osama Bin Laden to justice. Abdul Al-Said runs around with a terrorist sympathizer who said America deserved 9/11. America deserved 9/11, dude. I'm not here to disavow people's views. Abdul is too extreme for Michigan. I'm Mike Rogers and I approved this message because I'll fight to keep America safe. So when you said those words, what were you thinking? Oh man, I love that ad. I think it's one of the most, it's not even the most insane ad that we've seen this election cycle. What am I thinking when I see that ad or what was I thinking when he said those words? Oh, in 2019. I mean, I've rehashed this conversation, I think approximately a million and a half times over at this point. But yeah, in 2019, I was talking about the concept of blowback and I very quickly apologized. for using the language it deserved and it's interesting because you know since then this was all the way back in 2019. It wasn't that consequential overall until it was actually Andrew Cuomo who tried to bring it back as a as a salient attack point against Zoramum Donnie. It didn't work the monster please Zoramum Donnie's now the mayor of New York City, but that hasn't stopped other campaigns from also trying to to to turn this into some sort of major controversy. But I think what's more important is not what I said as a Twitch streamer from California all the way back in 2019 and apologized for, but why Mike Rogers is deploying this line of attack. And I think it's pretty obvious by this point where you know we're in we're almost done with October. Republicans don't really have anything. So they're engaging in some of the most bio forms of campaigning I've ever seen with Obdolosa Ed. It's all Islamophobia. It's all just you know Obdolosa Ed is a dangerous radical Muslim. Does he even care about America? And they're trying to advance a narrative that every Muslim is somehow responsible for 9/11 loves 9/11 wants 9/11 to happen. It's a way to try and otherwise these these candidates. I suppose what they would say about you though as you did actually say those words. So when they quote those words and I should use you saying them they're not exactly making something up are they that that is the difficulty and that then goes to whether you are a help or a hindrance to outside. Yeah. I did say those words. But I think it's you know people mispeak it's not the end of the world. And they're trying to they're trying to make this into a much larger much more consequential situation. But here's the here's the problem. Those attack ads have stopped. There's been additional reporting since then you said that last time they used that was in September. It was even earlier than that. And there's a reason why those attack ads stop when they started attacking me in virtually every race leading up to this unprecedented Republican midterm convention where they openly said we're going to talk about his non-piker. We're going to talk about the Democratic Socialist America. We're just going to say that the Democrats are radical. And these are the this is the new democratic party. The reason why they did that is because they had nothing to lean into. They couldn't talk about the economy. Gas prices are completely out of control. They couldn't talk about how Donald Trump was the peace president. He started a bunch of different wars right whipped the world into panic and chaos. I mean, look at what he's doing in Ukraine right now because of the the war that he initiated, this war of choice that he initiated in Iran, he now has to the demand that Zelensky lose his leverage that he finally has over Russia because the more Zelensky strikes the critical energy infrastructure, the worse it gets for the gas prices all around the world, right? So we're in a double buying there too. And that's precisely the reason why they thought, all right, I guess we can maybe attack this random twitch streamer, but it failed. He failed because no one cares. It failed because Trump is the president. He says unhinged things on a daily basis from the bully pulpit. He has far more power in his words. And of course, far more power in his actions, right? So all the Republicans are running away from the president and trying to make it seem as though they're not in support of the president, trying to distance themselves from the president. They thought they could do guilt by association with candidates by associating them with someone like myself. Now you asked if I was a hindrance of burden or a benefit. Yeah. I know what my responsibility is. I know what I'm capable of doing. If you were to ask me a son, can you go and talk to these 65-year-olds and get them to vote. These moderate voters, these retirees, and get them to vote for Abdel said, I would tell you that's going to be quite difficult. My job is to bring excitement to under 45-year-olds, to get them to participate in the civic process in more meaningful ways. That's precisely what I've been able to do. And I would go so far, say I've been able to do it quite effectively. And that is the reason why it's not just the Republicans that have been launching these attack ads, but it's also some Democrats who have been leaning into them too. Yeah. Well, we'll get to that in a second. Because I'm wondering, when you bring out Donald Trump, and we've heard what Donald Trump's been saying about you. He's a communist and all the rest of it, but I just, I wonder whether there is a similarity between you and Donald Trump that actually will be quite obvious to a lot of people listening to this, which is that you do say wild things. And in your case, on the 9/11 thing, you've apologized. I don't think Donald Trump's ever apologized for anything much that he has said. But he calls you a communist. I think you've said things about the state of Israel, like that it's fascist, et cetera. Use words loosely. You are appealing to people and getting them involved in the process, but doing so in a kind of wild sort of way that is outside the bounds of what used to be normal political discourse. In other words, you are the sort of a Trump-like figure, to which a lot of Democrats, and this goes to your point about the Democrats. A lot of Democrats would say, we don't want that. We want to go back to normal. We don't want this stuff. Yeah. I think normal is what brought us Donald Trump. And for the record, I don't think what I'm saying about Trump or Israel is all that outlandish. It comes across as outlandish to people over a certain age demographic or people in mainstream outlets, but I think it's perfectly fair to Bill Israel as a fascist state at this point, a fascist state that's done genocide. And it's not just my assessment either. I mean, Omar Bartov is a very famous Jewish Israeli holocaust scholar who recently wrote a book exactly about this about the transformation of Zionism. You know that to say to Jewish people that Israel is a fascist state, given the history of fascism and German and what happened to the Jews, you know it's offensive. And I don't want to have that argument with you. I'm just saying that you're out there and saying things if you don't mind if you don't sense the abilities. It's defending people's sensibilities, but it's not, it's not an extraordinary argument to make. It's one that even, you know, Jewish auntie Zionism, Jewish scholars are beginning to make as well. So take only argument about whether it's Trump like or not. So the reason why I brought that, the reason why I push back a little bit on that is because Donald Trump says outlandish things that are untrue. I have a style of communicating that is, I guess unorthodox for mainstream outlets, but I talk in the same way that like an average person talks, right? But the arguments that I'm presenting or the opinions that I have are not actually outside of the confines of normalcy at all. As a matter of fact, I would go so far to say the majority position is the position that I hold on a lot of these issues. There, of course, those where the majority either doesn't care about or it doesn't have sufficient knowledge to care about. You know, if I'm talking about some kind of foreign policy decision in the, in the minutiae of it all, it's certainly not the, certainly the average American person is not going to care about that, right? Having said that, you're correct when you do say that Donald Trump was seemingly an outside force that came in and changed the change at least one of the two parties in a very meaningful way. And he has been a very successful political force. I hate to say this because he's obviously a very dangerous political force. I think he is illiberal. I think he is a fascist. Well, even if he's not ideologically committed to a fascist project, people around him certainly seem to be, but it's not a secret that he has been able to almost single-handedly rewrite and retool the American political process. And for that reason, I think Democrats are terrified, not because of the way I speak or not because of how democratic socialists are changing the rules or trying to actively fight back against Republicans in the terms that Republicans have fought against us for the longest time. But I think it's more so about where our priorities lie. With Donald Trump, in many respects, he was chaotic. He is still chaotic, but he also still serve the interests of the super wealthy. Now, what's interesting about it is the number of super wealthy people that he serves the interests of has shrunk, especially in his second term. It's a close-knit group, friends, some of the top billionaires in the country. And of course, his family members that now have positions in the government that are doing outright corrupt things. But he ultimately still serves the same capitalist hierarchy, whereas someone like myself, the democratic socialists of America, want to change this system. We're not shy about it. We talk about it all. the time, perhaps maybe even too much. We want to stop American militarism, stop American bloodshed overseas and use some of this productive output here in the United States of America. Stop blowing up schools over there, spend this money on building schools here. Our infrastructure is crumbling. It's a real shame. We have a massive homelessness crisis, right? 600,000 people go to sleep outside every night in the wealthiest nation on earth. This is morally repugnant. We don't have a socialized healthcare system. So it's not a secret that this is what we want to bring about as socialist in this country. We want to make sure that we take some of this unbelievable amount of wealth that we've been able to generate away from the hands of the select view at the tipy top. It's consolidated up there. It's trapped up there. We want to make this money more productive and we want to yield true American prosperity. We believe that in the process of doing this, America will change its current trajectory. I don't think this is a scary concept or a radical one. In many respects, the goals that we want to achieve, especially in the interim, are not dissimilar to what you enjoy in the UK. Of course, there are problems in your system as well, or what people enjoy in Norway, right? Now, of course, I want to go beyond that, absolutely. But I still want to go through the democratic process. We're not invested in the seizure of people's assets or anything like that unless they are breaking the law. At which point, I think that we should be doing that and we haven't been doing that enough. We treat poor people with law and order, but wealthy people in our country and in the West generally get away with breaking all manner of laws and create a system of disorder. I think we need to change that. How far can you get, you think? So you've just set out very clearly what you believe. And I'm thinking, I will be talking earlier about Michigan and maybe some Democrats in Michigan who are slightly worried about your association with the candidate there, but looking beyond Michigan, looking elsewhere in the Midwest, looking across the vast swathes of America. How successful and how quickly successful can people who agree with you be in the democratic party? In other words, how much do you think America can change in the direction you want it to in, I don't know, a reasonable timeframe that we can sort of think about like four years, eight years, 12 years. I mean, I don't even think we have another opportunity. I think that America is changing right now. And we have to take control over the reins once again. I don't think Americans broadly appreciate what the Trump administration has done. And in many respects, while we treat Trump as an aberration, I think Trump is simply the logical conclusion of the current design that we have in America of corporate rule oligarchy. It's just more vulgar and more in your face, but it's very clear that Americans oppose it. I mean, I'll use the Iran war, right? From day one, nobody wanted this. Trump's own generals opposed it for many of the good reasons that we found out shortly thereafter that Iran would close the straight of hormones. This would collapse the energy markets, shut off 20% of the global energy supply, destroy some of the destroy the economy of our of our allied regions and allied partners. We're seeing all of that unfold right now. American munitions have been depleted. Both our offensive weapons capabilities and our defensive weapons capabilities have diminished. American primacy is now contested around the global stage. Nobody wanted this. Benjamin Netanyahu wanted it. Maybe a couple people in Washington, D.C. at select think tanks like foundation for defending democracy wanted this. But it was opposed by like 60% of the public. And the wars on popularity only grew. How can we say this is a democratic process when people get pulled on this stuff over and over again. And they routinely oppose it, including the Republicans themselves. Well, also Trump supporters who are now turning on him because they didn't want this war. So my question is, can those people be part of your movement as it were? So someone who has voted for Donald Trump, maybe three times. And who wanted the various quote unquote populist things that he was promising and hasn't delivered? Are they potentially supporters of the Hassan Pica Democratic Party now? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, in Michigan, they already are. I just saw a new poll. A new poll that came out about William Lawrence. He's in a contested supposedly purple or red district, right? William Lawrence and Abdelal Sayed are actually doing remarkably well. These are both left flank candidates. These are both insurgent candidates. Abdelal Sayed is not a socialist. William Lawrence started his DSH chapter, but ended his affiliation after winning the primary. But he's a pretty progressive guy overall. And of course, so is Abdelal Sayed. And we're seeing this happen already. A lot of the low propensity voters in Trump land in previous Trump regions, previous Trump, Trump voting districts are actually finding our message to be far more appealing than what corporate Democrats have pushed for. It's a really interesting point that because people who listen to this podcast and know enough about American politics to know that if Bernie Sanders had been the Democratic candidate in 2016, he is very likely to have beaten Donald Trump in 2016 and had a kind of left populism. And I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? The extent to which, actually, this isn't really a left-right thing. Is it in many respects? No, I've been saying this for the last decade, the reason why Donald Trump won was not only because he was obviously tapping into the deep veins of white supremacy and racism, which are obviously a very successful, historically, have been a very successful way of galvanizing some sub-sex or the masses to go out and vote. However, he also was able to identify the deep resentment that people had with the institutions with the establishment. He used fake right-wing populism, what I like to call "sloppilism" in an effort to tap into the populist rage and then redirect their anger and attention to marginalized, vulnerable communities that have nothing to do with the current economic predicament that people are facing. I always point this out. Trans people are 1% of the population. They shouldn't be talked about endlessly, right? The Muslims are 1% of the population. They shouldn't be talked about endlessly. There's no outsized political power that trans people hold, or Muslims hold in this country. And there's certainly not a lot of power that undocumented migrants hold in this country, right? And yet that's all the Republicans want to talk about. And I always stress this point. It's not a Guatemalan migrant that trekked thousands of miles to come to the United States of America that made your housing more expensive. It's your landlord. It's hedge funds buying out all of these homes and rising up their prices. Transgender person is not the reason why your electricity, your energy costs are skyrocketing. It's a part of, it's because of the wars that we're waging. It's because of the data centers that are being built that are sucking up the energy needs that your industry and the residential neighborhood previously needed, right? That's you're subsidizing the data centers with your extra utility payments. And when, I mean, this is just the truth. It's not only the correct way to argue about these issues, but it's simply just a truthful way of addressing the problems that persist. The issue is corporate Democrats have shied away from identifying what the real reasons are. And therefore they've been ineffective at combating Trumpism. They've been ineffective at combating right populism. And I believe that we are better at combating right wing populism because the antidote to right wing populism is just simply saying the truth and socialism, left wing populism. That's interesting. Left wing populism to combat the right. In that case, what happens to the center? I don't think the center is going to disappear. I think there are a lot of very intelligent, very thoughtful liberals out there who find themselves at odds with our program, with our agenda. And to them, my question always is, if you were to decide which side you're on, if you had a situation where on the one side you had the fascists, that will maintain the capitalist hierarchy, but will cause tremendous harm and instability. And on the other side, you have the socialist Which side would you find yourself in all we're asking for is for the super wealthy that have taken advantage of this current system and Created tremendous wealth for themselves to open up their purse strings a little bit and to give back to the American people So that we can have true national prosperity once again and make America ironically enough this great country that I know it can be That's the argument that we're making it's really fascinating in many respects because you know Trump ran on being the peace president and saying America first and and making America great again and then he violated all of those campaign promises Outright because it was clear from day one that he was going to serve the interests of these oligarchs that went and and sat next to him It is inauguration, right and and this kind of like wealth consolidation that's taking place the media conglomerates that are forming People don't like that people oppose that people want to to live their regular lives and Exist in peace with one another and oh, well, that's really interesting. Yeah, so you bring up what was gonna be my last question I think it's such an interesting one so a lot of people a lot of Americans a lot of people outside America say When is it going to be unified again? No mind great again? Unified again, and I think part of your answer is going to be about wealth inequality and there isn't a question It is simply factually the case that there is more wealth inequality now than there was 20 30 40 years ago that that's in the gilded age in we have worse. That's right. Yeah, we have worse wealth inequality Then then the roaring 20s at this point, you know, if you if you were able to address that Would that be enough to bring unity again or not? I? Think it would certainly make it easier. I'm not foolish enough to think that once we tackle wealth inequality that Forces of racism are magically going to perish overnight, but I do think that it would make it far easier to Create a a buy-in for people, right? I think there is this this Social cohesion that's been destroyed as a direct consequence of the social contract being destroyed in the past You could work at one person in a household could work a job and be able to take care of their children They could they could purchase a home. They would have assets. They would have a buy-in to the system said that children We've created an entire we've created an entire generation with no buy-in to the system was so ever and in that anger and resentment that they feel about Their current economic conditions. They they lash out at whoever the media is telling them is their enemy It can be black people brown people migrants People in different countries. We've become this this very violent this very angry nation that is Looking at all of the wrong villains when the villain itself is the design of this system and I still perhaps with my endless naivete an endless optimism believe that we can change the structure and I will do everything in my power to exhaust all readily available options Will you will you will fight for democracy here by on the BBC then pledge to be slightly less angry yourself in the future or is that is that a long way in the future? Well, I hope for a future where I will be less angry all the time But when I look around and I see school shootings happening all the time I see no investment from our political class to tackle any of these issues when I see so much poverty and right next to so much wealth I mean I live in one of the wealthiest districts and there's so many homeless people sleeping outside every night That makes me very angry when I see all of these resources that we have that we could be using we that we could be deploying To combat the crises that we're facing on the home front, but instead we we wasted away We burned billions and billions of dollars and assets in in the military bases that we've built encroaching upon our so-called foreign adversaries when I see all of that wealth Light on fire. I get frustrated. I think a lot of Americans see that and get frustrated by that too You do you looked very energized when I mentioned Bernie Sanders the the left-wing former former presidential hopeful on the democratic side I suppose I I shouldn't finish without saying who you backing for 28 what have you got? Is it AOC? Alexandria Causia Cortez is there someone else do you have a kind of is there someone who you think can Take the Hassan Pike of view of America cogently into 28. I think AOC is obviously the one that is capable of Uniting the democratic party and and bringing the leftmost position to the mainstream having said that there are I mean It's entirely up to her if she's invested in running for the presidency or not There are certainly other candidates other potential candidates. You know, I really like Sean fan. He's the Head of the UAW the one of the largest unions in North America That could be somewhat of an interesting person To push for There are other you know, there are there are other candidates out there They haven't really expressed their desire to run but I I do like Raphael Warnock. I've talked about Georgia before I talked about John Aasov And I said you know depending on how John Aasov carries himself in 2027 and into 2028 And just to explain to people in case I haven't been considered so John Aasov who is up for reelection this year Almost certainly going to win we think at the moment Raphael Warnock the other Senator who Is not up for reelection this year, but you're saying could also be a contender for 28. Yes. I think Raphael Warnock But old Raphael Warnock that comes from this liberation theology background could Potentially recreate. I mean, this is pure fantasy, right? I'm just everyone always ask me to spit ball on these things So I just try to come up with more interesting dynamics that you don't really get to hear in mainstream Alice because everyone's talking about the same like four people five people, right? Raphael Warnock Running on a liberation theology platform As he was a reverent back in the day could could potentially try what Jesse Jackson Unfortunately was was right about but too early to advance this rainbow coalition I think the time is right for a unique dynamic candidate like that So I think that could also be very interesting Look, I've kept asking you final questions and then you said things have been so interesting So I've asked you another final question which is kind of but it's been great to do. I really appreciate you spending the time with us As empire's real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much for joining us on the Americas. Of course. Thank you for having me Okay, that's it for today if you want to listen to our other episodes and earlier this week We talked about the big money behind the Republican campaign in the final days of the midterm elections You can find those episodes wherever you get your podcasts And if you want to get in touch we read every single bit of correspondence that we get in fact We have an entire episode dedicated to answering your questions every week So send a question in or maybe it's a story you think we should be covering whatever it is get in touch [email protected] or you can send us a message or a voice note We love the voice notes. What's up us on 44 330 123 948 0 bye-bye Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmers market You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything Maybe you go for some free range self-directed investing or perhaps you pick up a few farm fresh trades while you peruse You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. 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