We Read VIGIL by George Saunders with special guests Marieke Hardy and Jason Steger.

Welcome and thank you for pressing play on this episode of He Red She Red. He is me, JP Pomerody. But she is me Sarah Bailey. We're two Melbourne-based writers who love to catch up and chat about books. We are here thanks to the Books and Reading Champions at SpexAvers. Today on He Red She Red we are going to be discussing the most recent work of American novelist George Saunders, a Svelts and rather curious book called Vigil. To help us unpack it we are thrilled to welcome two guests to the studio. Welcome to you Jason Stager and Marie Cardi. Hi. Hello. It's great to have you both with us. Let me just quickly introduce you both for those who aren't familiar with your work. Marie Kura, Screenwriter, Playwright, Radio Broadcaster, Producer Anna Northa. You've penned regular columns for the age, the monthly and Frankie Magazine and written for many television shows including the Family Law and Heartbreak High. Your six-part award-winning black comedy series laid premiered on the ABC and was adapted for the US in 2025. And you are the co-creator of international literary phenomenon women of letters and a recipient of the 2015 Sydney Maya Fellowship. You currently curate spoken word salon better offset and you have a new original play losing face which day booze at MTC in June. No, we're just about to start rehearsing. So terrifying and exciting. So exciting. It's amazing. So exciting. And then Jason you get the award for the shortest bio I've ever been sent. Yeah. Good. That's what I love. I appreciate that so much. I was just so sorry. It says Jason for many years you were the book editor of the age and you were also a regular panelist on ABC TV's book club. In fact, you both graced our screens for over a decade as the regular guest pair on ABC. That's correct. The book club? For 11 years. Because 11 years. Can I just say, by the way, about the biography? You can interrupt me, you sure? Yeah, the bios. I think it's that so annoying when people don't use the sent bio and they go off scripts. I didn't do that. No, no, no, I'm saying it's amazing that the supplied bio is so short and yeah. Do you two usually like be curious is going to be like Carl and Jacqui where one of you walks out crying? It's huge. There's like a hundred million dollars at stake that would be amazing but unfortunately no. No, we do. We do. We get a few messages about our banter but I don't think that's bad. So we actually banter is not bickering. No, exactly. Fine lines sometimes. But sometimes I sound really mean but that she gets most into you, I think. Yeah, no, because if that's that's a bit of an attitude since we arrived in the room. Yeah, there's tension. So you wanted us to feel really uncomfortable. You were. Creative tension. Creative tension. But yeah, that's, you know. We have just had a conversation about competitiveness so I don't know, maybe, yeah. Maybe you've, maybe you've unwrapped it. I think we picked the biggest book because we just went through and talked about it. We're trying to predict what's going to be the biggest books of the year and we've turned it into a conversation. I think it's, I think it'll be land by mega. Yeah, we've had, yeah, early sharp. What do you think it'll be? Well, I didn't, I think it was just, I was annoyed because you stole land and claimed it as his own and I actually liked that book also. So now I'm like, well, that's not fair. Oh. So anyway. Well, then, anyway, you want to talk about it. You want to talk about it? Yeah. So we are much more interested in hearing about you both because I think, um, so many people. I'll derail this, so I'm sorry. So many people will remember you from the book show. I certainly watched all the time and loved it. It was sort of, um, event viewing in my house. So this is a bit of a reunion. Yeah. And also whenever we meet up, we just talk about books. The thing is Jason was always the silver fox of the book show, which I know he's going to hate, but I've gone completely crazy since the book show. I was being very crazy since I was 25, but now I'm completely great. And people go, look a bit like that, Marie-Kahavi from the book. A little bit. A little bit. You look exactly the same for my point of view. And before we get stuck into talking about visual, we would just love to hear from you both about, you know, what books mean to you in your current sort of life. Obviously, there've been a huge part of your careers in your worlds and your big readers. But what is your reading life like now? How do you choose what you read and what kind of books are you drawn to? Are you Jason start with you? Well, when I was at the age, I was the book's editor, so I just had to keep a track of everything as far as I could. I didn't have much time to read stuff that I wanted to read that was just for me. Since I've left, I'm still, because I'm doing these weekly newsletters for them and monthly previews of the books coming out, I'm still doing pretty much the same, actually. I have a little bit more time. And so I occasionally read something just for me, but not very often. And then I'm doing gigs at sort of writers' festivals and things like that, which require me to read the books of the panelists, like yours. Like ours. Yeah, I've got a question for you. When you've got that little window to read something, do you reread in that time? Is it always new? Well, I've got so many books at home that I've kept, and I think, right, I'm going to read that when I get some downtime. And so eventually I will. But if I do reread a bit, not much though, not much, certain novels, certain novels, I will not read again, because I'm terrified that the impact that they had when I first read them will be completely diminished and changed and will alter my perception of that particular book. Even though I mean, I saw you in conversation with this author, but Hania Yannagahara's A Little Life is one that obviously had a huge emotional, was a good, was a bad impact on me. And I have thought about reading again. And it's one of those things where you think, how am I going to feel? And it's sort of big. It's big, big. Well, it is big. I feel like that would be a waste of time. You think so? Yeah, because it's so big. And if it's not going to enhance your, like I feel like I also didn't love that book, so I can't expect it. But I don't like long books. And if I read a long book and I loved it. Just a sweeping statement. I don't like long books. No, I hate long books. I hate long books. But if I read a long book and love it, I feel like I don't want it. It's done. It's done. I don't want to go back. And so what's the longest book you've ever read? I've read huge books. Yeah. I can't think often to tell my head. That's another tension point between us actually, is that I have realised through this show that I really like long books and Josh is very much a short book person. So like I really have a sense that. So I read all the games through my own books and they're all like a thousand pages. Just even the categories of long and short books is so strange. But I love a lot of, I love a ton of page book. That's what he keeps trying to make his peak. You like a new mellow as well? I like a new mellow. Yeah. And you're a short story fan too. I think sometimes it needs a little bit. I'd rather read 900 pages of short stories than a 900 page literary novel. 100%. But what about if you're so deeply into the long book? You know, you just want it to go home. So I get that with fantasy. I get that. You're in the message. I don't get that with so much literary fiction. Hmm. Are you a re-reader, Marie? I'm selective about it. Not because I think the memory will be tainted. She really has it's the transit of Venus. I think I've read maybe five times. Right. And it's just because her writing is so incredible. It's just like opening a jewelry box. A new. Yeah. Can't argue with that. Yeah. So I think that one, Confederacy of Dunsters, I think some of my personal heavy hitters, I've re-read more than once because there's so much joy in them. But you know, I remember Michael Williams saying it's the thing that he fears most about death is all the books that he'll never get to read. And I feel the same way. Maybe Evan is just. That's such a Michael Williams. Yeah, I know. He's a classic Michael. Could just be a library up there and you get to spend like ten hours a day. When I die, they could say she's gone to the great big library in the sky. I guess that's nice. I think that could be possible. That doesn't happen though, does it? Josh. Sorry. It's my heaven fantasy. And what about you with your reading? You obviously have to read a lot for festivals and panels as well. But do you now. Yeah, but mine's more sporadic than Jason's. Like I do sporadic festivals and then in the middle. And I always think I love having to read books for festivals because you read books that you would normally read as you know you've talked about for this show as well. But then I always look forward to afterwards when I get back to my own reading. Yeah. So it's quite a nice balance. But I always carry three books at a time of different genres so I can dip in and out of them. I love to hear love that. Yeah, as I feel. And because I don't care for me. So much judgment. Yeah. So that is my preferred reading style. And I won't name the bookshop, or they will all know because I don't know what. I know you've got a sponsor. But one of my favourite bookshops has their websites really good if we're going to geek out on what site. You can name it. The website for the Melbourne Film Festival is also peerless. Don't get me started on websites. Dark Mofo. I don't know what got. It's a picture of an ear and it's on fire. It's a dance. I don't know what it is. But Meef is amazing. Anyway, readings website. Okay. Where you can put things in the cart and they stay there for months. So every time someone mentions a book that I should get I add it to my cart and then sometimes I'm untouched and I went back and I had $416 worth. But then I got two readings for Christmas and I wanted them all. I love that. I can't remember who recommended that to me or why. I think I've got five in there at the moment, including the new Steve Tollts, which I hear is incredible. Amazing. Yeah, I've heard good things about that too. No. No. I'm a monster. I'm a huge audiobook. And I don't kindle either. So whenever I go overseas. Oh, okay. Now I'm off you now. So I'd like the multiple reading. You want me in the first place. I was like, yeah. I'm like, this is great. Multiple book reading. Big fan. Yeah. You do like different formats. But I like the Roozai like Kindle as we get PDFs. And I can't read them all. No, I mean either. And I, you can send them to your Kindle and then it's, and then I just want to. Well, if you don't have a Kindle. Yeah, but that's what I mean. I don't have a Kindle either. I'm sorry. This is another source of tension. But when I travel overseas and obviously I travel with like, I put nine, usually have six or seven books in the suitcase. And then two in my backpack and one in my shoulder bag. Six-tendle. Get a Kindle. No, I'm going to guns a steal from carrying all this stuff around. To fit European train stations. No, but then I, when I have read through them, then I post them back from, you know, Prague or whatever. I sound much fancier than I, or, you know, doesn't care about drugs. I don't know. You post them back. Well, you do, yeah. One of the great joys of travel is leaving books and Airbnb. Leave books. No way. You should think about how I don't give any away. I mean, I've learned books a lot, but I never throw books at-- We talked about this. Leave a book. Can I go? Well, I was going to say, I think it's probably time that we talk about our author and our book, because we could talk generally about books, I think, for the rest of the day. So let's talk about our friend, Mr. George Saunders. He is a 67-year-old American writer, best known for his short stories, and his novel, Lincoln and the Bardot, which won the Booker Prize in 2017. He's had several collections of short stories published. He's often interviewed about his writing, but also more so lately, his life philosophy prior to his career as an author. He worked as a technical writer and a geophysical engineer, an environmental engineering firm in Rochester, New York. He was also, for a time, working with an oil exploration crew in Samatra in the early 1980s. He teaches creative writing. He does a lot of public speaking about the craft of creative writing and his views on that too. And he was also awarded the very prestigious Guggenheim Fellowship and a MacArthur Fellowship, which, from what I understand, means he's basically just been given heaps of money to think about ideas and potentially write about them. His fiction often focuses on the absurdity of consumerism, corporate culture. He increasingly writes about death, which I'm sure we'll talk about today. He used to be an objectivist, which I understand to be a philosophy that sort of means that you think that everything you should be doing, everything you can to make your life as good as it possibly can be. He's moved away from that and he's now a practicing Buddhist. It's kind of interesting. I think some of those themes come through in his stories as well. Visual was his much anticipated ninth novel and was published in February this year. So I'd love to just. - ninth book. - ninth book. - Yeah, second novel. - I'm not sure if I'm not mistaken, I'll be right back. - Would love to kick off the conversation with just thoughts on George Saunders. Had you read his work before and what was your sort of, I guess, understanding of his work going into reading this book? Jason, do you want to start? - Short stories, yeah, the, what's it called, 10th of December? - 10th of December. - Which was a very fine book. Obviously Lincoln, which was, I thought, fantastic. And more recently, the Russian. - Oh, it's one of the pond and the ryan, yeah. - Yeah, so he includes short stories by various Russian writers and then writes about it. - Yeah. - Do you have a part of his teaching? - It's such a good book. - Do we do Lincoln in the battle on the book show? - I don't know. - I don't think so. - I don't remember. - Would have been one of the last books you did. - It was 2017. - Oh, maybe. - Lincoln, I thought was magnificent, actually, really, really fantastic. Thuroughly deserved to win the book. It was, it's an amazing book. I've never read anything like it. All those different voices, which he, he, you know, he carries it off so perfectly. - Yeah. - And the figure of Lincoln is destroyed by the death of his 14-year-old son. And he's sitting there in the sort of mausoleum before the boy passes over, or whatever. He's in the barter, which is a Buddhist concept of, in between. And it's, I thought it was a deeply moving, very, very successful novel. And I mean, I'd never read anything like it. - And so you were excited to read this book? - I was excited to read "Vigil." - No, no, I was really, you know, I was really intrigued. - Yeah. - And I thought, okay, he's sort of, I mean, I don't know if we're getting into a vigil now, but you, you sort of read what it's about and you think, oh, yeah, you know, we're in this sort of vaguely similar technique. - Yeah, thematically. - Yeah. Well, maybe just, I'd love to hear from you, Marie, too, around your relationship with George Saunders. - I'm going to read this. - And then we'll talk about "Vigil" specifically. - I agree, Lincoln and the Butter was a masterpiece. - It's all right. You need a, John, someone to be with this floor. - You want to be with this floor? - I know, I could see a small piece. I hated 10th of December, and it was handed to me. And I just felt, I think a lot about inclusive and exclusive intellects. Invitational intellects. Sarah Ferguson from the ABC has a very invitational intellect. She's quite brilliant. And when you speak to her, you go, I also am brilliant. She's very, Jen makes you feel clever, but you know, there's some people that are so. - That brings you along. - Oh, I'm a big dumb dumb. And I feel like, the George Saunders, the short stories for me as a reader felt like he was showing off in a way that Lincoln and the Butter did. And it was like, look at me, I'm just bleeding. I don't write like everyone else. Woo! And I was like, well, I'm bored out of my brain. I have a theory that, you know, how there's a certain kind of man that is like, what do you mean you haven't read David Foster Wallace? Like, where's your infinite jest? I think George Saunders is starting to be a bit that vibe for some men. Oh, you don't get George Saunders? Interesting. You know, that kind of. It's funny, you say that just even researching for this show, there's a lot of discourse online about people who have started to dislike George Saunders for, I think, all the reasons that you've just highlighted. And I think he's becoming a bit Tyson. In his constant conversations around sort of intellect and who gets to be smart. And there's a little bit of that starting to flare up, which is interesting because he's American and they often quite like that. But I think he's tipped over a little bit, maybe. Those shots, I really felt like I was sitting up the back of a union lecture and someone was just marching around in front of me. I didn't like them. I had never read any George Saunders before. Oh, I just went into this completely cold. I obviously knew a lot about Lincoln and the Barrow and understood the sort of links in the concept. But you are a fan. Yeah, I'm a fan. I loved talking about the rain. I think it's crimly underrated. But I also think it should form part of Brad Ridingbroke. I think it's a writer's. Well, I think he uses it in that comes out of his classes. Yeah. And I think that contextualises some of his short fiction as well. But I didn't know who George Saunders was when I first picked out 10% of the sentiment. I really loved it. But I think at the time I was reading so many short. I was reading like Raymond Carver and like the short story is supposed to read. And although I love some of. I love lots of Carver stuff. I read this and there's a book called Friday Black, which has kind of like also had this kind of comic element but dealt with quite heavy themes and capitalism and things. And I really did. I loved that 10% of the time I go, this guy is amazing. Can I pick you up on something that you said then? I shouldn't point at you, but I'm going to point at you. Yeah, I'm going to point at you because we started off with a hostile tone. At a serial. But you said it uses it for riding which contextualises a lot of your short stories. And I'm like, you shouldn't have to. No, I think. But I loved 10% of the December before. Because I read that before I read a song on the Pond the Rain. But then I wrote it. But I'm writing it. And that's what I think sometimes is exclusionary about him for me. I think. And I'm a writer as well. But I wasn't immersed in the stories or. I mean, I'm a Richard Yates short story fan as well. And sometimes that simplicity of language is a very appealing inroad to me. I think how you put it is actually does make a lot of sense to me. How there is like. I'm going to bring you in, come with me. We're both going on the journey. And then there's like a few with me or with me. But if you're not. You're kind of outside of this experience. You could pitch-related really easily. No, not I agree with that. I agree with that. But that doesn't make it. I loved it. I felt like I still loved it. And I've given that book. It's a book I don't recommend that much because I have given it to people. It was recommended to me. I'm like, you can love it. Yeah. And people haven't loved it. But I think going back to that Friday black and I'm not going to try to pronounce. I'm going to not be able to pronounce the name of the author. But you should read it because it's amazing. But I actually think it's like Tim's of December, but better because the class and racial stuff. George Thomas doesn't really touch race, I don't think. But this guy does. And the class stuff is a lot more kind of. At the forefront of what he's writing about. And it's still in the same way I find. So I'm just really funny in short fiction. He. This book's really funny as well. So. Yeah, but anyway. So I've always liked. I'm like an outlier flinking the butter. We're hearing you talk about it. Made me actually like it. Well, I'm like, oh yeah, because I read it so long ago. Yeah. And I'm like, actually I was quite affected by the book. I was shocked when it won the book or actually. - But it's a brave choice. - Yeah, yeah. - Do you usually agree with the booker? - I did last year, yeah. - Josh predicted it last year. - Was that Paul? - No, it's last year. - Oh, God, that was so good. - Yeah, yeah, I love that book. And I also liked, I didn't like the Prophet's song. - Yeah, I thought the Beast King was better. - I haven't read that, so. - I love the Beast King. - I got picked Fed up in that. - Skippy dies, he's other one. - Oh, especially one of them. - He's incredible. - Who Paul was his name Paul? - The other Paul. - Paul Murray. - Murray. - Murray. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Beast King I really liked, but then I went back to God's Skippy dies, it was so good. - Everybody sort of raced about that. - It smells like a boy's school. - Maybe he won a cumulative booker prize and it was kind of the two for one. - Off the body of work. One of those ones. - Yeah. - Back to George. - Yeah, so visual. - But I do actually know the thing about it. I've been telling him when I like visual more. I don't know anymore. - Oh no, there's no way he could like visual more. - I loved it, I loved it. - I really loved visual, but I'm sorry. - I can get to because I read this. I read it in the back a long time ago. And I do remember the feeling, but if you would have kind of, if there's something I was trying to extract from and say what I loved about, I'm so like, I'd struggle mate. I just remember it being, the way you described it's kind of like an orchestra actually makes sense and it's kind of built of fragrance. I sort of remember that, but I think I was slightly confused or if you would know. Obviously violent disagreement. Apparently the audiobook is really good because he has different actors. - I've heard that as well. - Yeah, I've heard that as well. I want to say Stephen Fry, he's got all these different actors playing the- - David Sedaris is a great singer. - Which might make it easy for you. - Yeah, I think it's also, I felt like a short story, writer, not knowing how to write a novel. And, but what's the good way? - But it's a good way. - And a good way. And so what he's done is like, - It's a bass for a first. - He's filtered out. - With short stories. - And then this feels like, if we to move on to visual. This feels like a short story, right? And not knowing how to write a novella, but making it a just basically a really long short story. - Sorry. - Yeah. Well, I'd love for one of you to sort of have a go at summing up what vigil is about so that we can kind of orient everybody. - The duel is about a dead woman, a dual blame who in the afterlife has the job of comforting people who are about to die. And her latest assignment, which is 320 something assignment, is to comfort a guy called KL Boone. - KJ Boone. - KJ Boone. - KJ Boone. - Is a particularly egregious oil man who has done a lot of damage through his work to the climate to the world. And is basically a figure for us to see as or encompassing evil, I think. And so we follow Jill Reap Bursts into the book, literally and hits the ground and goes into the ground. Anyway, emerges into Boone's bedroom and there is this other character who is a similar spirit or whatever, to similar to Jill, a Frenchman who takes a slightly different position from Jill to in his approach to Boone. So that, I mean, that is the premise of it. And I think that is, well, anyway, that's the premise. - I've got a cinematic summary as well. - Please. - It's all that jazz with climate change. - Ooh. - Does everyone know the Bob Posse film all that jazz? - I do. - It's incredible. - It's very good. - It's a musical and it's a very narcissistic project. Bob Posse, Rest in Peace. But makes this film where Roy Scheider plays him and he plays a very autobiographical, hard-smoking, hard-living, hard-fucking, choreographer who's a shit to women and his character is on his deathbed and the Angel of Death plays, played by Jessica, beautiful blonde. - Yeah, he was beautiful blonde. - He's a Jessica, as 70s long time ago. I won't say Jessica Fletcher, but that's where she wrote. - No, it's not Jessica. - And she's the Angel of Death and he's treated to this cavalcade of people from his past who perform as Song and Dance. - It's kind of a present. - He was the choreographer for that. It's one of my favorite films. It did win Oscars, but it's this book, except with more dance. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, without the dancing, really. - And also, I think, Shades of A Christmas Carol as well. - Yeah, that's obvious. - I couldn't, I actually found it that. - 'Cause it scrooches, there's the same redemption, actually. - Yeah, I found it hard actually reading this and not being able to stop thinking about that book 'cause I just felt like there was so many parallels. - Mm-hmm. - Jill Blaine is, like you said, a spirit person and she's elevated and so she's kind of been given this special task to help people pass over in a satisfying, comforting way. - Comforting word. - Comforting word. - And so, why do you think George Sonders wrote this book? Like, what do you think he's trying to say? - He's obviously obsessed with death because everything he writes is about that. - Look, and I liked the book. I did think at times it was very heavy-handed with the climate message. - Yeah. - I like we get it. - It was about laying in the workshop. - Yeah, it was a bit, it was a bit. I know, a bit heavy-handed. Which maybe if it was a short story, he could have been a little bit more efficient in the whole of that. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's not the short story, right, it's instinct to be so direct, I think. - No. - It's almost like polo-work at times. But, yeah, I was deeply disappointed with the book. Because I was looking forward to it. - So unlike you. - Because I think, I really liked it. - That's a very strong, - Yeah, he never, he's such a fan-citter on the book show. Also, I'm gonna, like, pick behind the curtain. Sometimes we'd be back, say, he's like, I didn't like it, and then he'd come and go, oh, I do, I had quite a tendency. I was like, oh, hang me out to dry. And then I always looked like the main one, who would go hard. - He's a complete lie. - So tell us why you were disappointed with the book. - Well, I was really looking forward to it, because obviously I'd liked Lincoln. And okay, it's sort of similar territory, but what I, it seems terribly rushed to me somehow. I felt that none of the characters, I mean, none of them live anyway, but none of them lived. None of them came off the page. There was certainly no emotional engagement. I was also sort of puzzled by, towards the end of the book, he's talking about, he never-tability. And I just sort of, I just thought that didn't make sense. - Me, yeah. - Actually, did not make sense at all. He's talking about, Jill is talking about a boom, and the inevitability of what he did in his life. And I just thought that was really dodgy, frankly, because that is dismissing free will and all that. And so, yeah, I thought it was really, really disappointed, because I was, I don't want to repeat, well, I am going to repeat myself. I was really looking forward to it. Because he's an interesting writer. I mean, you don't get too many people writing from a Buddhist perspective, and that's what he does. - Do you think that's what the inevitability comes from because it's about reincarnation and your living life? - Maybe, I mean, I'm not, I'm no expert on that, but I just thought that was almost ethically irresponsible. - Hmm. - It's just someone, yeah, it's, there is a principle of Buddhism, isn't it? - Is it a term? - Yeah, look at the four of us and the Buddhist podcast. - Yeah, I mean, I also thought, go, I keep using cinematic references today. You know the film "Labyrinth" with David. - Yeah. - She goes there, so you all knew that one, all that jazz. - Yeah. - But, you know, the ridiculous cast of characters she's seen, and there's, you know, there's the door knobs and one is the truth and one is, and there was a lot of silly characters that ended up coming out of each other's parts. - I was a kid and I was terrified when I watched it. - No, but like in this book, I thought I'd like to bump the bum guy. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - There's a circle, it feels like that's infinite snake things. - Yeah, it felt borderline hysterical and very silly. - Yes. - You can like comment here. - And quite flabby. I feel like I've said I liked it, and now I'm just gonna stop. - No, but that's like the, that's the, what I mean by the short story, like this is, there's so much that, had he go, gone, I'm gonna make this short story. - Oh, well, it's obvious what he would cut. - Well, yeah, cut, those two right down to two. - So as a twin, sort of the twin. - Yeah, well, they were sort of, people that had worked with him in a past and they both had gripes and they were sort of, but they were very similar and they kind of came as a double act. - And she like freezes them. - Yeah, and they were comical. I think what you said about it being rushed is interesting because I, I mean, what I liked about the book was sort of some of the world building and I said to Josh before, like I liked how Jill sort of forced to the earth and she can embody a body and she has these funny little, like lies down and put her arms up and then she's in their mind and I quite liked like the surreal fantasy elements and the absurdness and some of the humour, but I just felt like at the start, you don't get much of a chance to understand and orient yourself around her being a spirit and this sort of concept of elevation before the French, spirit comes along and just is kind of so annoying. And I almost wanted to slap him away and go, "We'll get to you in a minute. I just want to understand a bit more about what is going on before you take over." I'm so sorry to do this Jessica Lang. Okay, I thought you did. Yes, I was really painful for thinking about you. I'm glad you clarified. I don't know, I just think, and maybe that was very intentional. Maybe he wanted it to be this chaotic hectic. Everyone's interrupting everybody throughout the book and that's just part of it, but it just felt unsatisfying. With that, with that everyone interrupting everyone, as I just said to you, I apologise, but I also think there's an element of fast, right? And I've only I've adapted fast. Thank you, Dario Foe, for laying the concrete because fast is mathematics. And I was I adapted in 1950s that tell you in fast about the death of capitalism. And I was really glad someone else had done the maths. But the fast can get more and more shrill and hysterical and door is opening and bodies falling out. But if the concrete's been poured and the maths is solid, then that chaos just feels like it's all encompassing part of it. But you're right, the chaos here was distracting. Yeah. It felt very unfocused or unfilted. Go on, sorry. It's like I've just been thinking about what the book is actually about. And it's your death and there's how much it seems. But when you think about climate change and bureaucracy, like the sort of anti-bureaucratic, some of this book, like these people who are there's like this process to follow and it's like everyone's just arguing and interrupting and and it's really chaotic. I think when I think about what affected me, I thought it was funny. But and I think you're right to say the, you know, the climate change. Jason Shagas said it. I didn't find it funny. Lots of people have said to me it was funny. Do you do that? I really just really didn't find it funny. I thought it was, I don't think I laughed at all. But the interest is not correct. It takes a lot and a book to make me. Yeah, I really love it. It's very hard. It was like David Siddharth. It was kind of like it was a comedy. It was, it was, the "The Illos Leverty," I should say. Do you know I was mentioned in the David Siddharth book once? Really? Yes. And I didn't know until I read the book. Oh wow. It's amazing. Yeah, I interviewed him for the age and he and I about the same height and we had a great interview. I'm obsessed with him. I already had fan mail when I was 19 and he wrote one back on a type, like a tie prader. And the interview was great. I was obsessed. It was good. And then years later I was reading one of his books and he was talking about however on comments about how short he is. And he says he did an interview in Australia years ago with a woman he got along with very well. And then he looked at the article which he didn't normally do but he liked me and I described him as I think bonsai-sized. He said I wasn't offended. But to be reading a David Siddharth book and go, "That's me. That's amazing." That's me. I mean, I mean, David Siddharth is so. That's what you should have sent me for your bio. Oh, I would have just read that out. That's amazing. Yeah. That's so funny. What about the character of Jill? She's obviously the main character. I know you said Jason you didn't really connect with anyone in the book. I did like her but I think as I said before I found a start so chaotic that I didn't bond with her until halfway through the book when you get a bit more of her backstory and then you sort of start to understand a bit more about how she left the world, the living world and I guess what she says is now Judy and all this sort of stuff. Like, did you like her as a character and what do you think about the choice of her as the kind of main character? I did sort of warn to her because as I agree with you that when you learn more about about her the way she left the world and what happened to the people she was with before she left the world and afterwards and all that sort of stuff and yet she's sort of sad because she's she thinks that she left to her town and so she is she's very important because she's there's much more life in her than in Boone. Boone is very one note. Yeah, very one note. But even so I would have like I guess I would have like more of her story, more of her feelings. I mean I do like, is it her who says what is it comfort or comfort for all else's futility? Yeah. And that seems to be the ethos in her job. Yeah. But whether that's sufficient is of course it's a different matter. Yeah, what about you Marie? Yeah, I like her a lot and her story was probably the most interesting game more than Boone who just seemed like a kind of quite cartoonish tycoon. He's a bit scrooge McDuck. Yeah, totally. Yeah, not Christmas carol story. Oh, scrooge McDuck. From your cocktails? Yeah, yeah. No, I know he was inspired by me. But her story was was was poised to be more interesting in terms of her how she died and what she remembered and then and then it has this kind of it leads to an emotional revelation for her that ended up being not that interesting or not that impactful because the buildup wasn't maybe we didn't know her enough. Yeah. We knew her enough that when she started feeling a bit loose and coming back into her old human self it was kind of fun and warm and interesting. But the impact of what she learned I felt quite cold about. Yeah, I've got a question. Do you think if you read this before Lincoln the Barrow you would like Lincoln the Barrow less? That's an interesting question. Because I think there's like the risk of having a quite distinct voice which I think he does as it can become a bit of a gimmick and I think he gets why I've got to Lincoln the Barrow as the first one you've read. Yeah, I look I think Lincoln in the Barrow is a more skillful book and I think it's I would hope that if I had I read them the other way round I would still prefer Lincoln. Yeah, but it's such a good question because you do quite vividly dislike this. Yeah. Even though you're looking forward to it. So if you take that you dislike it but you're right to then pick up Lincoln in the Barrow and here's a funny person from the afterlife again I think that you would be. But it's like what's absent in Lincoln the Barrow is probably like the moral pandering stuff but I would say it's much more sentimental. Lincoln, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's also you said he's 67. Do you think I mean and he's bought us so he obviously thinks about death and obviously he makes work about it but I think about there's so much in this about redemption. Yeah. And doing good to the world and evil to the world and I think there is a tendency to become more reflective about that stuff as you become older. Yeah. Obviously it was always interested in mortality and grief and sadness and the philosophical elements of grief but it just seemed like such a guys the world's on fire. Am I right? Yeah. I think as well I've listened to an interview that he did recently just before this book was published and he does say that he's become obsessed with death he sort of is thinking about it all of the time and that is what he's drawn to writing about. He didn't say explicitly that this book was about him exploring some of the things from his past and how he's kind of resolving those in his own mind but knowing that his bio includes sort of working in some of these very capitalist corporate probably fairly similar to Boone in quest. I do wonder if there's a little bit of a what does it all mean? Like he's long been preoccupied by anti-capillism. I think that's a really interesting notion. I just feel like the nuance and maybe in the space that he has in a novella ish he doesn't have as much but there's more interesting to say he worked on in the oil industry but then became a writer and a lecturer and then how do you reconcile the fact with you drew a line in the past you whereas KJ Boone just went money money money. So that's an easier character as an enemy whereas someone really wrestling with the conundrum of choices they made with our younger. He doesn't Boone. He isn't sort of like it's like a form of logic. Is he always at constant explaining away like he's doing it for his family? Yes. You know like it's not like it's not like he's a complete character. I just think he's like personifies the profit. He brings Coca-Cola's to his daughter's class and forces everyone to finish them including the girl. We had a diabetic episode afterwards. That's not funny. He's laughing now. I mean that was not keep being like that was funny. That was funny. But I do think that I mean what I found was horrible. What I found really frustrating about him the one note and all those things but just like you say it's a conspiracy of confidence within himself he's just continually telling himself that he's made and making the right choices. I think it would have been so much more interesting if his career had been more checkered and then you're actually grappling with well what is a good or a bad life and if you've done a bad thing but then you did three good ones does that you know sort of counteract that that wasn't explored at all it was just sort of like just a bad guy. There's no ambiguity. I mean I don't have space to do that in a book this short. Maybe you could have read them on the one. As a moral agent you could constantly bumping up against like these absurd arguments like it like as a vegetarian I remember saying my brother was like he's like well people wanted to explain to you why it's a bad decision and they'd be like it'll be like yeah but but the chicken's already dead. - It's already alive. - It's already in the wrap up. And it's like, that's not the point. - That's not the point. - Yeah, that's not some else's blind amount of work. - But you quite liked, I mean, you liked this book. So what do you like about it? - I liked it because I think I didn't go into it expecting. I went into it expecting what I got from short stories. - But the good thing is, and it's so good. - I like it less now. I like it less now. - It's so interesting that you asked that question about if we'd like Lincoln in the butto. And I think I love Lincoln in the butto. Then I read 10th of December and went fuck off. And then I read this and I was like, oh, that's all right. - Back to fall. - So I liked it. - So what do you love 10th of December? - I love my favourite by Miles. - 10th of December. - 10th of December. I like Pasteryly, which is another short story. I liked Swim and Ponderrain more than his two novels. And then, I don't know, maybe I do like Lincoln more. Actually, having. - People would be changed their minds. - But if Lincoln was his first. Okay, he's a very skillful writer. We know that. But Lincoln, as a first novel, is extraordinary. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean, really, yes. - But it's a six book. - I know, I know. - But it's a. - And also coming from, like, to write five short story collections that were by the time he got to Lincoln Bada, it was pretty well celebrated. He's obviously like, his prose is great. And. - Yeah, but prose is great, but that doesn't make it. - No, but that's why I mean. - I feel like that's the. There's so many people who have good ideas, who have a great story, who have a real sense of character, who have an effort dialogue, but they're prose things. I think that's the hardest part. It's like, prose that just brings you in instantly, which I think he does. - You think that's the hardest part? - I think so. - Which I would. - I think so. - I would say equally is the scaffolding of the story in the narrative arc, which is where this is lit down. - But I also would say, I think it's a singular, it's like an anomaly, I think, how Lincoln Bada worked. Like, I just think. I think it's miraculous. - You can laugh that book now. - No, no, I don't know. I'm saying it shouldn't work, and it worked well enough for me, but it worked so well for so many people. And I don't know if he has an instinct for that scaffolding. - Yeah. - I've given Lincoln in the Bada to someone, because it's one of those ones, "Oh, yeah." And he went, "I don't get this annoying. "I don't want to finish writing this." - I didn't get it that much the first time, but here in you talk about, I actually, I'm like, "Yeah, I just take a while to get ahead of him." - Jason's very persuasive, and it's very persuasive. - I also change my mind about. - I mean, we've heard you say that. - But I usually get worse. - We change each other's minds a lot. - I'm gonna be loving visual by the end. But I like most, I think I like. - Well, you should read some bad books. - Have you ever read a book that you've completely hated? - Yeah, I do. - Okay. - Yeah, but they're like, I don't know, but you're sleep bad books. You've got many people hate these books. - What about one that everyone loves? - Yeah, yeah. - I just thought, I didn't like it a little life. - Yeah, but that's just trauma porn as well, a little life. - And what do we read recently, that everyone. - I love them. - I love them. - I love that much. - Yeah. - Okay. - But there's loads of books I don't feel strong. There's almost no books I don't like. - But you're really good at that. You can sort of say, I didn't love this book. This is what I admired about it. And then this is the thing that really irked me. And often it's one or two things that really irritate the rest of the book, you're pleased. - Yeah, it's a lot of writing about other writers. I hate them. - Well, I love writing. - You find it pretentious. - No, no, sometimes it can be done well, but I find it often pretentious. - You mean writing a fictional character who is also a writer? - No, that's fine. - I mean, we just read the correspondence. - Just having like-- - And just like referential and like inside those-- - A normally viewed with so much. - Because also I find a shortcut to connecting readers because there's a selection process. Someone who's reading a book is into books and you know they're going to be into other books and you're just putting it in there. I don't find that pretty much. And it's also like, it's often these upper middle class people who are writing-- - It's his pet peeve. - I hate it. - If it's someone like writing about-- - And actually write something. - James Patterson, I'm like, yeah, write on. - I think it's like-- - I think this signaling to the signaling cultural-- - Statistic. - Statistication and status. And I find it sometimes the heart of the lover book I found on that, the correspondent I found on that. It's like if a character's reading the bell jar of a genuine full saying. - You can see the strings. - Yeah. - Do you have any books that you turn around in book shops so that the spine's not showing so no one will buy it? - We would never do that. - And what are those books? - A light between the oceans. - Oh, that's it. - Is that ML's? - ML's in our book. - Yeah. - You just written a new book. - I like that. - And John Boyne did this book about-- the guy who wrote the boy in the striped pajamas. He's like, "Pajulli-ness. I don't feel so bad about it." But he wrote this book. I think he was really problematic on Twitter. - He was. - And like every night, I can lie to my who got caught out. And it was like, "Oh no, I'm a near-cut." "I'm going to write a book on being cancelled." Like Lionel Shriver. - It's like my brother, Rebecca, or something. I can't remember what it was. - But he's written a whole book about cancel, like a character that's being cancelled. And he thinks it's really funny. It was one of the most famous things I've been spending money on. - I liked, you know, I liked actually, he wrote the series, the four elements. - Yeah, you did. - And I bought them, and then I realized he was, I found out he was problematic. Someone told me. - Oh, but all artists are problematic. - Yeah, and I loved it. - That doesn't work. - And I love those books, actually, I thought they were really good. But then I found out, I might have talked about this on the phone before. - You did, yeah. - He, you might find this interesting. He just Googled how to make red dye, because he was on historical novel. And he pulled this recipe from the video games' outer, and no, the ingredients exist. And it's so funny, 'cause it plays out. - It plays out. - It's like, it's like an ocorrect eyeball, an viral herb, or something. And these things don't actually exist. And it got printed, and then he got called out, and there's nothing you can do but say, "Yeah, I Googled it, so he did." - Yeah. - So I mean, I stomped on Steadman on the book show, which we would try not to do for first time. - Yeah, I do. - But by the movie rights that already been bought up, that person was already going to be mega. - I don't like it. - I don't like it. - Yeah, I don't like it. - I do. - I do. - I do. - Do you turn any around in book shops? You won't admit to what a B.E.D. - For me, it's like, what are my covering up with, my own? - Oh, yeah, yeah. - I do that. - I do that. - I'm with your own book. - Yeah. - And what book do you cover up? - Mine. - Well. (laughing) - My rivals. No, I almost always do, but just big international crime books that I think are good. - Okay, yeah, great. They're rich enough. - Yeah. - I'm right next to David, built out she, and so I consider just one of mine over, and he doesn't need another sale. - Yeah. - I bought Australian authors of CD. - Yours. - No. (laughing) - We'll never do that. - And you know, just-- - Oh, yeah. - I give, I turn that. - We've turned that around. - I've turned that around, too. - I've turned that around. - And ran. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - At the truck. - Yeah. - I turn that around all the time. - I love this little sort of subversive being the tapping in book stores. - That's like-- - It's like a-- That's a pseudo philosophical kind of novel. That's one that if someone says it's their favourite novel, you just leave the road. - Oh, that's a real road. - You leave the road. - Yeah, the date is over. - Yeah, no, you get your order and Uber. - Yeah. - And you say you're going to the bathroom. - Yeah. - I've actually never met anybody who said it. Well, Jen, this was Jen-- - No, I think she was trying to champion it. - Yeah. - 'Cause she knew we all hated it. - Yeah, but I've never met anybody who loved it. - No, I don't know anyone who's-- - No, no. - I don't know many people have actually read it, to be honest. - No, well, that's a far too long. - Just to re-arrayness, I was back towards Vigil. I think final comments, I was just going to say, like, I have not read so long as before, and I know you all have, I think for me, with this book, I didn't love it. I, you know, for a whole bunch of the reasons we've talked about. But I did. I think I really admire his creativity. I feel like there is something to be said for someone that is just constantly challenging. I don't know, writing novels that are just quite weird and obscure. And he's like, that is my big mass market play. And I quite like that. - It's a big issue. - I'm quite keen to go out and read the can now. - Biggest sling, nice thing. - Yeah, and it's just interesting. - I wonder how you're going to feel about Lincoln in the bar. - I don't know, I'm not quite aware. - See, she could be the one who you read it. - I will read it. - Yeah, and I have intended to read it, and I just haven't got to it. But, yeah, I'm quite keen to read that now, having read this, because I didn't like this, but I sort of admired the ambition behind it. - Because Lincoln in the bar, I was even more ambitious. - Interesting is that now that I've flipped a little more as well, because I did quite enjoy the read. But I don't think I'd pick up another George Slown. - Oh, Jason Sproul has all down. - Oh, sure. - Yeah. - He's got that behind the video. - No, no, no, no, I've read it again. - Oh, for punch. - So you've even got more authority on that. - No, no, no, no, no, no, but I read it when it was, you know, I had a proof copy from Wayback when February. - I had to read it again. - Also, I love the idea of you being so excited about it coming out, and then you read it and finish it and went, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it was me, it was me, I've got a call." - I've got a call, I've got to see this again, surely. - But he's so funny. - Like, I think the thing I like about him, and this is kind of like a vonigate, you know, or MacArthur kind of thing where you could read one sentence, and you sort of know it's happened. He's got like this charm, and this kind of like, he has actual style, and I really appreciate that. - And so he's like, "Surely has it." He's got actual style. - Yeah, I mean, they wrote, but she's too sure. - I wouldn't say surely. - She's not particularly playful as she is. - But in terms of a distinctive style. - But maybe even think, - Yeah, never is like, - Like, it's that thing, you read one sentence. You know what it's like, because it took you three pages to get to that one sentence. But, - I think, I mean, one thing I am curious about is what someone like George Sonders will write next, because I think in my mind he's a death guy, but I guess that's just because of what he's been so far. Maybe he'll come out with something just completely different and that's-- - I hope he goes to short stories. - I don't think he will go to something. I think he'll go back to stories. - Do you know what he read? - I don't know if you have a monasticist, but he wrote, he wrote "Scredit articles" sometimes, or opinion pieces, or essays, but he wrote something a few years ago, Trump won, was coming round, and he was going to all these Trump rallies, and it was like a really sympathetic view of Trump voters, before it was cool to do so. Like, this is a long time. You know, like, now we're all like, what's happening to the white, you know? - Yeah. - And we're working class and the flyover states, but back then he went round to all these rallies, and it was such, it's probably like my favorite piece of writing from-- - I have to read that, can you say that? - Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. It must be from 2015. - Would you like a link in the show, Nights, as well? - 'Cause it's hard not to think about Trump when you're reading vigil, 100% just going, what does it look like for you when you're lying on your deathbed and your world has just been about corruption and like-- - Or compromise. - It makes it make real sense. I remember reading it and thinking it was staggering, like it's just such a good, yeah. And as I said, it's really sympathetic, and she goes and we've like, kind of an earnest understand. - I think, I mean, unless he comes out with a book that everyone's saying, oh my god, it's the new one that's gonna win the book. I feel like I'm full of George Saunders. We've had our time together and it's time to go. - I'll see you this thing. It's the New Yorker. - I've read his journalism, like I was selling cars. - From the New Yorker. - It was in the New Yorker. - Well, yeah, I hope so. - You know, this is-- - And then you'll have to turn his books. - I'd be so mad at you. - I would still read it. - All right, we're just gonna cut to a quick add, and then we'll be back with Jason and Marie Expo's recommendation. Josh, have you heard of Presbyopia? - I have not. - Well, Presbyopia is a common age-related eye condition that typically begins from around 40 years old, making it difficult to focus on nearby objects. And the not-so-good news is that Presbyopia will affect everyone at some stage. - How does that actually work? - It happens when the crystalline lens in the eye becomes less flexible and thicker, and it causes close objects to become blurred and the point of closest focus gradually moves further away from the eyes. It's gradual, but you'll start to notice a change in your close vision from around the age of 40. - Okay, I feel like I've already got this, by the way. How would I go about fixing it? - Well, you might have it, but luckily, there is a simple fix. You might need Presbyopia, multi-focal glasses for Presbyopia reading glasses or contact lenses, or there's lots of other options. If you head into spec sabers for a Medicare-covered eye test, one of their optometrist can help work out what's right for you. All right, we'd love for you to both let us know a book that you recommend, or potentially even the same book. I'm not sure. Jason, do you want to keep yourself up? - Well, I know that I really like Claire Thomas's novel "On Not Climbing Mountains." I liked her previous novel very much at the moment. - Would I like her previous, 'cause I loved her? - Yeah, I reckon you would. - I reckon you would. - It's quite conforms. - I'll go add it to my review. - Yeah, I'll completely different. I mean, there's no story really this, and it's about a woman going to Switzerland. Her father's just died. He was Swiss, lived in, obviously, had migrated to Australia. It's about grief. And the curious thing is the narrator who is the main character doesn't really enter your consciousness for a while. And it's very delicately done. I thought it, I really, really loved it. - It's very ambitious when you put it that way. - I really liked it. - Yeah, yeah. I actually may have really recommended it. - No, I don't think you have it next, but I know you've spoken to me about it. - Yeah, I really liked it. - Yeah, I loved it. - I'd also recommend 14 ways of looking by Erin Vincent. - I have a look. - Wonderful. - I love getting a sneaky extra in there. - Yeah, that's great. (laughs) - What about you, Mary? - Because it's a number, 'cause of the color it could keep thinking 50 shades of gray. - Yeah. - That's the number of the colors. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's a little bit more black. - But it's really good. That's a sort of memoir. - It's like a poem about the number 14. - Yeah, yeah, or just like a high heel. - Can you tell us what's about it? - It's, well, it's her life and everything relates to the number 14 little snippets in there, you can see it. - And it's a few dog ears I should add. - Yeah, it's pretty bright on books too, which is just a poem. - Yeah, I do as well. - But then you keep them. - So you can write and use it as a course. - 'Cause you can see when it's right there, I think we need to. - And I also, those books I have my pen marks on, I'll put it out on a box on the street. - You're a bad person. - I just, I don't like George Saunders' "Nutrile" about you before we did the podcast. - I've got a tiny house. - Yeah, but I don't have it. - We've got to read the books and see you go, yes, and line it. - WTS. - You know that's famous author Josh Pinnett. - Yes, come on. - Someone got a book of mine out of a little library and that someone had gone out and crossed out all the swear words in it. So I think that's worse, actually. - I think that's just me. - One of your novels is-- - Yeah, so someone tagging it and it's like, I got this book out of the book. - Bad guy. - And someone-- - And I'm like-- - That's doing God's work. - Yeah, that's it. - But you never get read a book. - No. - Haven't you run out of space? I have run out of space. - I've got no space. - I've got, well, I'm stacking them up against walls. - Yeah. - That's why Josh has this studio so that you've got more space for your books. - Look at this room. I'm already accumulating too many books in here. - Yeah, I moved to-- - But I need to really, if I really, really love a book, I'll give it to a friend or I'll keep it. The ones, like you get sent proofs and so on, you put them out in a box on the street. And people come and grab them. I see, I mean, I know that everyone has different boundaries for desecrating or not desiccating. So I would never write on a book. Also, because if I read it, even if someone's done something in pencil and rubbed it out, I can tell. - Oh, yeah. - And then I start going, "Why did they underline that? "What were they doing? "Who is this person?" But I do take them to restaurants all the time and I'm reading the bars. So they've always got like soy sauce, or a pretty cool page. - But do you use your dog here? - Yeah. - For real. But a dog here, I've got a system. Right dog here is where I'm up to. Left dog here is, is there something interesting that I can go back to? - I'll go back to my room. - I've got a good system for you. I dog here to the line I like. - Yeah, that's nice. - I'll dog here then. And then it just stops. - What if it's right at the bottom? - It does that. - It does that. - Yeah. - I use from the bottom for a sentence or something that I really like. Top if I want to make a comment or something in there. - This is the biggest conversation of ever since. - This is definitely, it's definitely up there. - But such a good system. - It's so funny though, because I've read a book that Josh has read and he's handed it to me with all these doggy things. And then I'm often going, what do you want to do in the doggy? - I do, yeah, I do. - So what I'll often do is I'll go back to it or if I really like the line or if there's some sort of sort of observation I thought was bringing, I'll undog here and I'll like make a note of it. So I can, and then I'll, yeah. So but often it'll be years and I'll go back to a book and I'll set dog here and I'm like, I better go see what it's, and I'm like, what was the thing? - Oh, that's so nice. - It's like, you get it all right. - The ones I don't put on street, I should say the ones that I'm still on the hands. - Marie, then you need to go, but do you have a quick recommendation before you issue? - I mean, I've got a million. I'm late to Andrew Piposs as lucky, but I've nearly finished that and I really, really enjoyed it unless it's about to take a really bad twist in the final 20 pages in which case, boo. - I really would have. - The first one? - Yeah, lucky's the first one. - Lucky's the first one. - So good. I felt it was a remiss of me to have not read that. So in a Laura McFee Browns very dull, so tense and claustrophobic and sexy, erotic, wet. - Sexy, yeah, sexy. - And look, I wanna talk about, I know, is it David Shale? - Shale. - Shale, slay. - We had the show all week. - I know you would have talked about this book, but the thing I wanted to say about it, which, 'cause I loved it. - So I always think that book. Booker winner is always pretty. The only one was the little life, which was second and a brief history of, haven't gone. - Oh, it's even killing, see. - But I always buy the booker winner, and I don't know what it was about flesh. Maybe a couple of other people that said they'd like to tune me, but you know that you just go, we're gonna fall in love. - Yeah, yeah. - I just, and I never read the back of books, so I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know anything about it, but it was one of those ones, so you know you saved up, you go, I'm gonna love this book. And I did. You know when you get a really strong, bodily feeling and you go. - Very appropriate for flesh. - Well yes, but I had no idea what it was about. I can't, no one was like, I think I knew it won the booker, but I just knew it was gonna be, and it was, it was so satisfying. - It's very true, it's like, - I'm sure when people tell me that, I'm just like, - They're wrong, those people are wrong. - Yeah, 'cause I thought no one's gonna like, but I also, I always described it as quite a masculine book. - Yes, my friend said it was a male fantasy book, but I have to show you something really funny. - He's miserable, no one's fantasy. - I know, and then I saw his author photo at the end, I got a jump skin. - Yeah, we saw that. - It was something, he did exactly the same. - He's funny, really funny, so he's on at the writers festival, Melbourne writers festival, and I wanted to go see him, so I searched his name on the festival website, and because we're doing the book club and we're talking about flesh, right? This comes up, which is the author photo, which is my author photo, and then look, which we, we've got the same author photo. - We're both wearing white. - That's a new author photo. - I'm like, I'm like, it's not the jump scare one, but look, we both got the same pose. I saw that this morning, and it's made my morning. - We'll put that up online and we'll show the comparison you guys are twins. - So exciting, so I don't wanna meet him though. You know what I mean? You know, there's some people that you love their book, and you just think, I'll just leave you there. - It's okay to be at distance. - Maybe we'll set all. - A beautiful photo. - Yeah. - A beautiful photo. But I've heard them, I've listened to them speaking stuff on a screen. - Have you read any short stories? I just bought some off the back of flesh, which I'm really excited to start. - I should have. - A lot of the enemies. - Yeah, yeah, that's the one I've got. Yeah, I'm really excited to read. We both really liked flesh. It was, it was a great, great, great, great. - It was great to have you. - And the benefit is if you take that recommendation, you can go back and listen to us. - Oh yes, it was our first episode. That was what we just did. - It was just us. - It was just us. - It was just us. - It was just us. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Jason and Marie, we've loved having you on the show to talk about visual despite the mixed reviews on the actual book. Thank you to everyone out there for listening. - Net positive. - Net positive. - Yeah, I would say so. - Net interesting. - I think I've come down, Jason's come up. - Fraction. - I'd rather read him than John Boyen. - Yeah, yeah. We'll be back soon with another book club chat soon. Bye. - Bye. - He read Sheerad is proudly presented by Spek Savers. The He read Sheerad team would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded.