We read the new Tom Brady book — and we’ve been right about his Instagram all along + Jennifer Wilson from The New Yorker joins us for SGS Book Club!

Testing testing testing testing. Hello, hello. This is Linglon. Oh, well, I guess we'll find out. Hopefully. Oh Hi Charlotte. Hello, Madeline. We're back with another episode of the sports gossip show presented once again by us Did you like I geared up for that one? Oh, that was nice. I was I didn't know a low position Ready to die a dramatic breathing. Oh, yeah, I probably should work on that was like a N. Yeah What I mean, uh Unbelievable banger really. It really. I mean, you think it was still is still is Well, we're back. Yeah, here we are. Happy Tuesday. Happy Tuesday. We're back with an episode once again about Tom Brady I'm I'm just like waiting for a season to assist from this man Nothing when bringing greater joy than getting a season to assist from Tom Brady. He's like can you he's like look There's nothing even legal here. Can you just stop shut up and stop talking about as I'll say again We've said this before on the show and I haven't set it in a while Tom if you're listening We'd love for you to come on to talk about your Instagram. We can talk about whatever you want your diet. It doesn't matter Oh, you're anything any of your companies anything just just a thought we would really love nothing more I feel you know, I I feel Tom brate. You know what Tom? I kind of owe you my career So like yeah, if anything know that there's a lot of gratitude include. Yeah, when we talk about work We're huge fans huge fans of your work. Yeah, really I mean love what you're putting down. You brought me so much joy Tom You brought me so much pictures fans. You really did you did no today We there's a book that came out by Lars Anderson called Brady an American story in the price of greatness And there have been a lot of headlines to come out of this mainly because of one anecdote, Madeline and what was that? The anecdote was let me pull up exactly oh nice I'm because I I showed Charlotte how to pull quotes from Your Kindle when you highlight them and onto your computer You can did you have did you guys know you can get your Kindle on your laptop? You can and then you can and then you can highlight from your Kindle. Yeah in copy and paste you can So I put all the quotes in a doc. I Took a picture of my Kindle with my phone. Yeah, not good way to do it So there was a portion in we did you say with the book west? Did we already say that? Yeah, yeah, I said the book was but I don't know I think I said Lars Anderson's book Brady and American story and the price of greatness and I do want to let give a little caveat before we get into this If you haven't read the book and you don't want spoilers I guess read the book and come back to this we should have probably giving you a little bit more time Well, you also you don't you don't need to read the book to to understand what's like we'll give context obviously as we do always on the show Also, I just want to say that it's like I Don't know what to tell you if you don't want spoilers for Tom Brady's life like it's been happening. Yeah also we have Jen Wilson from the New Yorker Who wrote a review of this book? We have her on the show a little bit later to talk from a literary perspective about what she thought the book did Well, and what it maybe was missing. Yes, so stick around for that. She was great. Yes So there's a section in the book about his Instagram and talks about when he joined Instagram The author Lars Anderson says he became more active on Instagram He would soon have more than 15 million followers and he hired a creative agency to help craft him craft his content Brady had come a long way on social media shortly after he activated his own verified Instagram profile in January 2017 He had to be schooled by backup quarterback Jacobi percent on etiquette when he developed an infatuation with hashtags That was a little too exuberant so he was on online and then later on There is a section. Oh, what do you need to say? It's not true that he hired a creative agency Oh, please he founded a creative agency He had his best friend Ben Robots who is his like right-hand man still to this day his brother Jeff fine Was running Brady social media sort of on his own with one of his friends in like a basement in allston, Massachusetts and then it grew into Shadeline, which is now like a full-scale production company Yeah, but that sort of annoyed me that in this book. I'm like you know, this isn't I mean It was also my white whale as a reporter to get to the bottom of who was running Tom Brady's social media right and so he Made it was like a very Brady thing. He's like, I don't trust anyone on the outside I'm gonna build this from the inside which is also why social media has been so unhinged well and and let me just Commentary let me add a little footnote to that too is that that is very common for celebrities as someone who used to run Instagram accounts for public figures It is often run not by a creative agency at the start It's often run by like an assistant or a friend or someone in their close inner circle who they trust because so much of That job is built around trust because you're coming up with content and captions in someone else's voice So yeah, if it's just a random agency you're hiring that you have no personal connection to it can feel a little bit Stale and inauthentic. Yeah, so just want to say that so they start a large start talking about his Instagram Brady's Instagram. Yeah, Brady's Instagram, but the point we would like to Direct everyone to is a passage about a photograph That was taken at UCLA's practice facility in the book Lars Anderson writes Brady's right arm is extended and the ball has spiraled out of his hand Silhouetted by the sunsets golden glow. He watches through narrowed eyes as it soars into the sky Underneath this snapshot of a perfect throwing form Brady wrote quote true love the verbatim phrase jazel had repeatedly used to describe Brady's relationship with football to those who knew Brady well There was nothing ambiguous about the post one friend described it as quote the softest middle finger ever given to an ex-wife which I Would just like to say and I you know you would like to say confirms what we have suspected all along that this man Uses Instagram as a way to process his emotions in real time on the internet for millions of people and millions of followers to see yes and also to Be a little vindictive or to say, you know, this is a man I think what the book does really well is show you how he felt doubted for hit all of all of his upbringing all growing up Was never the strongest or the fastest was the smartest at football? maybe that we Will ever see yeah And works really hard, but there's a part of him and it's funny because the Patriots when they were playing in their you know Sixth the Super Bowl. They were like we're underdogs and everyone's like no, you're not They're like no, you're not you're the Patriots you've won five of these already and they're like no one believes in us Everybody hates us. We and they're like yeah, everybody hates you because you're good and Brady used that his whole life and is still in some ways using that now about his personal life as like, you know some kind of See, I got you. I'm still here. It's like a manifestation a defensiveness as a manifestation of some sort of like deep-seated insecurity or pain. Yeah, it's he uses Instagram as a way to process his emotions Cross a spectrum of emotions that human can feel whether it's defensiveness Feeling nostalgic feeling sad feeling happy this man uses his public social media platform As a way to process those emotions and for those who didn't listen, when did we do the episode about Tom Brady's in-stream? Was that like six months ago? Yeah, maybe about somewhere around there if you haven't watched or listened to that go back and listen We analyzed Tom Brady's Instagram content from when they announced a divorce to I think it was like basically almost present day Because again, we suspected that he was using his public social media platform as a way to kind of go through that Range of emotions and I think seen in this in the book this anecdote while it wasn't discussed at length really It was just maybe a couple pages. Yeah about a sense to him. It did confirm I think what we've suspected all along about this man to have someone in his inner circle be like Oh, yeah, that's what he was doing. Yeah, he's using it to process emotions He's also using it to feel seen and like to reach out I think he's been famous for so long too that it's almost like his direct connection with the world in a lot of ways or a way to say You know, he can't say to Giselle You know, it hurt my feelings that you said football was my true love because their marriage fell apart as this book shows you because of football Yeah, but it was like look see he's like getting a little dig in in a way that allows him to communicate in some way. Yes And we went back and we looked at Tom's social media because he he joined Facebook in 2011 But he really started using Facebook because he was on Facebook before Instagram people forgot as this kind of like Defiant I'll show you attitude when he made his first kind of most viral at the time post Which was he posted his old resume? And it was the resume that he thought he might have to use if he didn't get taken in the draft and he posted and said thought I might have to use this after the fifth round because he was famously taken at pick 49 in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL draft and the timing of this was interesting because it was in September of 2014 And you might think well, what did Tom Brady have to prove at that point he had already won three Super Bowls They would go on to win won that season But in the 2014 draft billbell check head coach of the Patriots then drafted Jimmy Garoppolo in the second round as a quarterback, which any first QB of a team will tell you is like, what you got to start watching your back. You're like, wait, Brady was 37 at the time. He's like, I'm sorry, you have a succession plan for me. - Not a great song. - And that put a real chip on Brady Shoulder. That was sort of the beginning of his fissure mostly with Bella Check, but he was posting that to say to his coach, we think it was like his original crash out of being like, hey buddy, did you forget who I am, and so you can see the seeds of how he uses social media now all the way back 12 years ago. - Yeah, I think we thought his crash out happened recently around his retirement. Obviously we're talking about his posting more shirtless photos, posting those weird couch selfies that fell like he was waiting for a young woman, perhaps an influencer to slide into his DMs, who's to say, but it did really indicate when we found that, like, oh, this man, this man has been using the internet to crash out for longer than we think to the point where I'm like, wait, does Tom Brady have like an anonymous Tumblr somewhere where he's, you know, put all those inspirational quotes he's been sharing on the stories he was posting on Facebook? Did he secretly have a Tumblr? He was sharing more or a Pinterest board as we talked about on that episode. You know, to me, it feels like maybe for him, the internet is sort of this safe world for him where he can present how he wants to present. - Yeah. - And, you know, as they talk about in the book, like his upbringing, he was the underdog. Most of his life, he was bullied. I felt like he had very cliche stories that are in, like, a kid's movie about, like, kid being bullied and then he, like, overcomes the-- - Yeah. - You know, it's like-- - And he becomes the greatest quarterback of all time. - He becomes the way to quarterback of all time. - Yes, but that he, the internet for him is almost this safe space where he can present how he wants to present and, and I don't know, like, present is like the cool inspirational guy, but also crash, I don't know. It feels like this sort of, yeah, like a, it's like a therapy session for him in some ways. I don't know. - I think that he, the way he is perceived to has shifted so much, because in 2014, when he posted that resume post, social media, I was at the, at Boston.com at the time, it was like our most clicked post of the week where it was, like, Tom Brady posts resume. Everybody clicked it. The traffic was insane. And at the time, it was like, look at this guy who's being so self-deprecating, making fun of himself. And I think when you look back on it, you're like, oh no, that was like a warning shot. - Yeah. - That was a shot across the bow to Bella Check that's like, oh no, I'm not going anywhere. But because of the distance you have now, and of knowing what was going on at the time, you can see how it was intended in a way that at the time to your point, he, everybody thought, like, oh look, he's finally showing some personality. - Yeah. - Which was also a defiant thing to do when you're on the Patriots. It was like the military don't have a personality do your job no days off. And I think so, the seeds for what he's still trying to do, which is be seen as cool and relevant. And you made a great point about, when you look at his social media over the course of this time, you can see kind of the language of the internet shift, too. Yeah, like those early posts were very genuine and authentic, a little cheesy, I would say. They don't show much personality, but over time, as the internet became more meme-y, like memeable and that internet speaks sort of became its own language in and of itself, Tom Brady shifted his sentiment to being more self-deprecating, a little bit more sarcastic, sometimes it landed, sometimes it didn't. But it really felt like his tone shifted to adapt to the changing tides of the internet, as a way also for him to assimilate, when most of his life, he felt like not on the football field, like as a quarterback of the Patriots, but before that, that he was sort of this outsider, and that he always had to fight for his place. He always felt like he was misunderstood, I think, in a lot of ways. And this was a way for him to be understood. Yeah. So he was willing to kind of pivot his tone in how he presents himself online in order to adapt to what was acceptable on the internet. That also could have been partially due to the fact that maybe he did bring in more of a team, who was helping him craft that voice obviously online, which is highly likely. But knowing Tom and reading in the book, so much of his work as a football player, he was like on the iPad watching all the plays, he was doing brain exercises to expand his mind and being able to like see the future, predict the future. And so I wonder for him in some ways, by shifting how his tone online, he was like, I feel like I need to get ahead of the curve, and I need to present myself in the way that I think people want to perceive me, because on the football field, I can predict what's happening, I can see more than other people, but in the reality and real life on the internet, that's just not how the internet works. You know what I mean? I think he was chasing youth. I think that the internet at the time was still seen is like a very young hip thing. Like the people he had doing social media when he was 30, when he was 42, we're 24. Yeah. So he was trying to keep up with this way of talking on the internet that was, or I guess he was 40, they were 24, keeping up with this way of talking on the internet that felt current and youthful because he was getting older and the thing that Tom Brady feared more than anything was aging out of being able to do the thing that he was the best at. And I think when you read this book, the reason we're talking about social media in light of this book is because you have a primary source in Tom Brady's internet presence, that you can map the events of his life to, that you can tell how he was feeling in this book, there are a lot of interviews and sort of people in his life who spoke off the record to Lars Anderson to say because I wanted the book to be accurate. So you get a feeling of like, oh yeah, okay, if you look at this, you can tell he was feeling that way at this time, which backs it up. But I think the curve of, the cruelty of being an athlete is that your curve of knowledge as it exponentially grows higher, your body starts to break down. And that once those two intersect and your body just keeps going downhill just by natural aging processes, you, it's the hardest thing in the world. It's impossible. And I think what this book showed was Tom being the best at what he did and then his relationship not surviving it. - Yeah, let's talk about Jacelle. - Okay, because Jacelle is obviously a through line in this book. There were some, I had some complaints early on about how the author talked about Jacelle's place in the modeling world. But that's maybe for a different episode. I do think that I wish that there had been a little bit more information around her importance in the fashion industry and how she was sort of in a lot of ways the goat of the fashion industry. And I feel like it was not minimized 'cause I mean, he does mention she was the highest paid model and she had all these business endeavors. But it does, I don't feel like that point is illustrated that clearly. But she shows up throughout the book at key points in his life, like talking about when they met and then talking about moments where they were getting dating and then him, Tom ready having a baby with Bridget Moynihan, his ex-girlfriend, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do you feel like their relationship? Did it illustrate anything new for you about where his career ended up going and his retirement? Or do you feel like it just confirmed what you already suspected about their dynamic and how that potentially played into his career and him choosing to retire and then unretire and then they got the divorce? - That's a good question. I think it just confirmed it. I think it was pretty clear from the reporting that's already out there and from his activity on social media and her activity on social media that this broke down over a long period of time where she felt that he was putting football first. And I think if anything, we mentioned this when we talked to Jen, it should have been like a double biography. It should have been a story of both of them because it was more of a long profile of Brady without I would have loved more about how their lives actually intersected or didn't because it just seemed like they weren't a good match because Tom, I guess what the book did make me realize in light of their divorce is like, yes, Tom completely fumbled Juzelle by not being there for her the way she was there for him. I do think though, when you read about his devotion to football and I knew what he did to be the greatest, but when you read it cumulatively and you see the genius that he possess, there is a part of you that's like, yeah, how was he ever gonna stop doing this until the last possible second his body could do it? It's almost like it was you, if I can, if I felt like Juzelle's friend reading it, I think starting in 2016, when he didn't retire, I would have been like girl, I don't know. I think maybe this, I know he's the love of your life and the father of your children, but like he's not gonna change, so you need to decide can you be with this or like, is it time to go your separate ways? - Yes, I mean Juzelle was one who famously said that football was his first love and I think that's true and I think that's one of the biggest takeaways of the book to your point. It's like, yeah, football was his first love and it's interesting because I do feel like in some ways and this isn't to a knock on Juzelle, but I think Tom Brady showed his true colors from the beginning, he, I don't think there was ever a point where it felt, I mean we don't know what their private conversations were like, So, of course, he- He could have been telling her, "Oh, I don't care that much about football. I care more about my family and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Like, sure. Okay. Obviously. We don't know. But I do think, at least from the outside looking in and the anecdotes that are put in the book, feels like he was pretty clear about who we was. You know, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. He loves putting his butt on that football field. He loves it. Playing football. That's it. That's it. And anything else is unfortunately secondary. It feels like. Even if, of course, Jacelle was the love of his life. He loves his kids exponentially. Those things can be true. But I do think thinking about this man's purpose on earth. It's like his purpose on earth was to be the greatest quarterback of all time. And he, nothing would stop him to do that. And to your point, why would he retire? He's just won a Super Bowl. He's the 28 to 3 comeback. Why would he then be like, "I'm going to retire now." You know? It's not like he was laid back with injury. Clearly still. It's not like he was plagued with injuries and was like hobbling, hobbling to the finish and then that game. Right. Right. He was, he won a Super Bowl. Yeah. And then he won two more after that. Yeah. Here's a question. Yeah. Do you think if they had lost that dreaded 28 to three comeback against the Atlanta Falcons and never forget? If they had lost. Yeah. Do you think that would have changed his mind? I don't think so. No, no, no, no. I don't think so at all. And I think that the interesting thing in the book that I learned was he had said, you know, I don't want to have children until I'm 39 and I finished playing. He was pretty clear about that. Like that was his timeline because he knew that he couldn't be the best father and the best football player at the same time. They had kids earlier anyway. Yeah. And it's almost like he knew what it would take. And I think that there's a bit of a tragicness to the whole thing because you're watching. It's like you're watching someone almost have to choose between two things they shouldn't have to choose between, but that athletes have to choose between all the time, which is you have to sacrifice so much to be a professional athlete. You do. It's crazy. I don't think people fully understand the amount of work it takes to be a professional athlete. Of course, if you have a family at the same time and you want to also be there all the time for your kids, like those things just physics wise, you can't be in two places at the same time. It almost shouldn't be, I don't think it's a question of like did Tom Brie LaFootball more than his wife or more than his kids? He had a finite amount of time to do this thing that he was the best at. And he felt that he would have the rest of his life to be a father and a husband. And Jacelle was like, well, to me, that starts now. And you can completely understand why she would feel that way. You want a partner who can be there for you. And I think the problem in their marriage was that maybe she kept hoping he would change. And he kept not knowing how to tell her fully like, I'm kind of in this because he loved her. Yeah. He loved her. I mean, I think they're. And he was also very selfish. That's also true. I do think I wonder if for Jacelle, they talk about this in the book that, you know, Jacelle was very instrumental in him having a plant-based diet, talking about him doing yoga and meditation and all these things. I wonder if her mind, because she was clearly involved in his professional career. I mean, that's a fundamental way he's changing how he's preparing his body, right? That I wonder if she felt like, well, I am changing him. I have this influence. So why can't he take it a step further and change for me and retire? Totally. I wonder if I can imagine in her mind being like, look at all these sacrifice I made, look in all these ways. I influenced you professionally. And then you're not going to go retire and then she clearly was just like, cool, I'm done. It was like the final straw. I can imagine how easy it is to jump to that conclusion totally because, because for her, I think she was keeping her end of a bargain that Tom didn't keep. Yes. And when you look at him through the lens of a football player, you're like, well, of course he didn't keep it. When you look at him through the lens of a husband, you're like, well, that's not being the partner that you said you would be when you told her that you would play for ten years only. Yeah. And it's just fascinating to watch this like the struggle, I mean, I mean, it, as we talk about with Jen coming up, the price of greatness, the author is insinuating was Giselle. I think that what you learned from the book is that Tom Brady has so many deep seeded feelings of not being the best like he's still posting workout videos, even though he wants seven super balls. I know. He still needs to convince you that maybe he could do it. Maybe he could get out there. And I think that that's kind of just a pathology that like, I don't know if, I don't know if their marriage would have survived his retirement either where he's crashed out from not being able to do the thing he loves. Yeah. Feels like they were on two separate roads. Yeah. Yeah. That we're going to have to go in different. Yeah. So it does feel like that. And I feel like the end of the book felt like a tragedy for Tom in some ways that, you know, he planned so much of his life, so much of his career. He knew so much about football. He knew he was Mr. football. He knew just everything you could possibly know about the sport. He knew and then some and he could predict any possible outcome really. And you always kind of knew he was going to get the job done. He was reliable. But then in this area of his life, his personal life, he unfortunately could not really predict the outcome. So he did have all the information available to him. And this was a highly likely outcome for him in his life. And I think that realization of the fact that he cannot predict another person's emotions I think in some ways. And he can't control ultimately to your point the fact that there is that point on the graph where his football knowledge and his body declining meat and he unfortunately just has to retire and he has no choice. I think those combination of factors has led to where we are today with him and his crash out online and continuing to post those workout photos and shirtless selfies. But I don't think it's necessarily because of Jacelle. And that I think is my biggest problem with the book is that it's sure a factor, but really Tom Brady is at the center of this. And I think that that is where it's interesting to see a book written by a long time sports illustrated writer look at a man through the lens of his relationship because we don't often see that. However, it felt like it was an all or nothing framing where I think anybody who is a person, you know, you're responsible for yourself. Yes. You're responsible for yourself. Nobody can save you. Nobody can change you. You have to do those things on your own. And so it's almost like it's irrelevant. Why it fell apart in some ways because it's like, well, this was Tom's life and he was in charge. And I don't think the authors are arguing that he wasn't. But there is this idea of like, you know, it's a woman the best thing about a man. And it's like, you're two separate people. Yeah. Two separate people. Of course you're together. But like, yeah, he didn't like his marriage didn't fall apart because of they just weren't compatible. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't working. It wasn't working. Yeah. And it is devastating to read. Also though I think something that he didn't really touch on was in the two years after the divorce, which we've talked about a lot, which we analyzed the social media following that. And you said in the last episode we did about when he was crashing out doing like WWE stunts, the role that his job with Fox Sports as an analyst has played where I think he's he's pretty high on himself, which is what we go trip. Yeah, it's what Fox Sports does because if you read this book, you're like, Tom Brady should be a football coach now, Tom Brady should now go on to, I mean, if he really wants to stick it to Bill Balecheck, he should go on to become the greatest coach of all time. Yes. But he's like kind of high on the life of the suits and the million dollar watches and being on TV and the vlogs. This man loves football so much. It's like, just get back out, go coach, Tom, like be in the trend on the field. He was such an amazing leader. Every teammate was like, I love Tom Brady. Yeah. I feel like I feel like there's a world where he coaches it at the end of his contract with Fox. Is he under a 10 year contract? Oh, God. That may be too far out. But long. I don't know. I think I don't remember. I remember, I think it said it was, yeah, 10 year, 375 million. Something like that. It's a way out. I'm no lawyer. But also though now, you know, he's trying to be a good dad. Yeah. And I think he wants to be their first kids. Where's coaching him and take him away again. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Also kind of funny is that Tom, the amount he's been posting his kids recently feels a little bit like he's competing with Jacelle's new husband, who keep Valente, where he's now like, oh, okay. So now I have competition on being a dad. Look where I take my kids. Joaquim. You know, like, can you take him to the Olympics? No. I can. You can take him to Jiu Jitsu competition, but I can take him to the Olympics. Look at me. Once you read like how defensive and like vindictive this guy can be, you're like, oh, well, it feels kind of like now he's doing that. Well, he's given us too much material. He's given us too much material and also it's not that complicated. He's just a competitive person and now he can be competitive with his ex-life's new fiancee or husband, whatever. Yeah. You know, so that's it. Anyway, please enjoy our conversation with Jennifer, we had a great time talking to her. And yeah, here it is. Enjoy. We are thrilled to welcome Jennifer Wilson to the show today. She is a staff writer for the New Yorker, covering books and culture, and recently wrote a review of Lars Anderson's new book, Brady, an American story, and the price of greatness. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me to discuss my favorite topic. Tom Brady's failure is now. We also see that we've got to get this out of the way. I'm a Patriots fan, your Neagles fan, and that's a beautiful thing. That's what America's all about, right? Look at us, and a lot. Finding common grades, I'm kidding. We wanted to start out though. We've talked on her show a lot about how Tom Brady over the past two years has been crashing out on the internet in the wake of his divorce, and his ex-wife, Juzelle Bunchin, getting married and having a baby with a different man, Joaquim Valente, and we, from your point of view, is someone who's maybe not quite as in the weeds as Tom Brady is we are, but who read this book and probably hates him 'cause your Neagles fan. How did you feel like this book explained or didn't what he is publicly going through now? I mean, I think, you know, I mean, I'm in the weeds in a different way. I mean, I think I joke to this is the first time I've reviewed a book about someone I've discussed in therapy, like Ed Lenn. Amazing. That's incredible. I mean, I think that the book really, I mean, the book is really fascinating because, you know, I think like this, the subtitle is the price of greatness, which is sort of like the unofficial subtitle of I feel like every sports documentary these days is just sort of the toll that it takes. And it's never really a big toll, you know, in a lot of these, like I'm thinking like the last dance. It's just that, you know, like some people think Michael Jordan's kind of a douchebag, but this one was really dramatic because it basically, the book argued, I mean, I remember reading and thinking, wait a minute, is he saying that the price of greatness is Jezel, like this whole biography is told through the prism of what happened in Tom Brady's life that made it him possible for him to do whatever Jezel told him to do. And he was just such a, it was really fat. I mean, it was just like a really fascinating way to think about someone's life. But I mean, basically, essentially what he's arguing is that you really have to understand. And I think I did on some level, but not as much as I do now having read the book, just what an underdog Tom Brady was for so much of his early life. Like, I mean, in, I think it was middle school or high school, he wrote an essay about his sisters and just sort of what it was like growing up in the shadow of these athletically gifted sisters. And, you know, he wrote, you know, I just hope one day someone says, "Hey, aren't you Tom Brady's sister?" Like that to him was just that, you know, there was this really emotional story about, you know, he was like kind of like the slow kid in the neighborhoods when they would play neighborhood games. The group of boys said, "Hey, you know, Brady, go along." And they, like, threw a football and he's, like, they pretended to throw a football and he's like, "He keeps running and keeps running." And they just go the other direction. - Oh, brood. - And that is brood. - It's really, really brood. I mean, I will tell you like this, I really softened on Tom Brady having read this book, but yeah, and so basically the writer Lars Anderson is saying like someone who has those kinds of wounds, you know, there was, it was never gonna be enough for someone like that. Someone, he needed more validation than pretty much anyone who played professional football. And so yeah, it's, there's a lot going on there that kind of was only able to be resolved on the football field when he was getting these wins. And now you're sort of seeing someone having to rethink what winning is like and how to sort of get the validation that he once got before, that he clearly really, you know, needed after truly like decades. I mean, even into his college football career, I mean, the fans would boo when he got on the field 'cause they wanted, you know, the other, the other foot, the other quarter back, you know, they just, no one, if there's a really funny moment where he says to like the counselor, the coaches, and Michigan, the coaches don't believe in me. And the counselor says, you're right, they don't. (laughing) - Another strike against Tom, tough. - For God. - For God. - No, I feel like there were a lot of anecdotes in the book that kind of give you a little bit more insight into Tom Brady's legacy. There is of course original reporting in the book from the author Lars Anderson. Do you feel like what is put in the book helps provide context or explain Tom Brady's legacy? Do you feel like there are any elements that were missing or pieces of the story that you wish? There had more, then more original reporting and not just kind of regurgitating what maybe some people already know about Tom Brady's life in legacy? - I think one thing, and I mean, you all probably, I don't know if this was new information to you all, but to me, it was really fascinating how he explained the dynamic between Brady and Belichick that in so many ways the entire Patriot system was built around this idea that, you know, Tom wasn't like a star, you know, draft pick. Like he still felt like, you know, grateful to Belichick for like plucking him out of obscurity. That's kind of how he saw things, like really early on. And so, you know, Belichick could kind of boss him around in a way where if he had been, you know, this kind of like college football star who, you know, every team wanted that might not have happened. And then that affected the entire team because if they see that, you know, even the quarterback can't talk back or the quarterback can't push back, like they are, you know, it created a very disciplined locker room. And that was fascinating to me. I mean, I would have loved more about the dynamic between him and Belichick. I mean, I think that one of the, I mean, I think this stuff about concussions and like I was really stunned at how quickly the book just kind of went through every, like, you know, there was only Giselle really in the book is sort of saying, I want him to retire because I am afraid that if he state continues to play, I won't really have my husband for the rest of his life. I mean, he might continue living, but how? And, you know, and I thought that was like that element of thinking about why he can't quit and why she's afraid that he, for him to continue playing. I sort of wish there had been a bit more about that. I mean, obviously, you know, Tom is the hero of this book. He's the hero of the biography. I wish that there had been a bit more friction in the book. I wish we had gone deeper into his politics, you know, the crypto scandal. That's all mentioned, but I mean, it's just to me like that feels like we're going to talk about the price of greatness and, you know, his blind spots. And, you know, those things seemed that they deserved greater attention. Yeah, I think reading it, you know, I used to work at Sports Illustrated. I think that there is this tradition of a certain type of profile where you try to get at a male athlete's psyche. That is what a lot of those profiles were. That's what I think a lot of these guys who came up writing their work trained to do. I mean, the language he uses to describe Giselle is insane. It's like sexualizing her, but also clearly oblivious to the fact that he's doing that. And so I think that it felt like a long Sports Illustrated profile. And that's not to say that I think I was fascinated in ways that I was sort of surprised because, you know, a group of Patriots fan covered Tom Brady. Like, there were things in there where I was like, oh, okay, you know, that's interesting. It felt almost like it should have been a double biography of Tom and Giselle to actually show the price of a marriage rather than just like this man fumbled his supermodel wife. And that felt a little bit like we liked when you said in the review that the stakes were low. It felt sort of like a shrunken version of, oh, my God, you could have told the whole story of the 21st century so far through the lens of Tom Brady. Yeah, I mean, that's what I kept. I think at one point I was just like, wait, well, what does Tom Brady mean? Like, what is the significance of Tom Brady? I mean, the NFL and the quarterback position have changed so much in the past, you know, 25 years. I mean, I'm even thinking about, you know, like race and racially, like, you know, I mean, you know, really at the start of the 21st century, you had far fewer black quarterbacks. I mean, it was really, I mean, it was really uncomfortable. The fact that, you know, this sort of the idea was that the team could only really be led by a white. You know a white quarterback like you only that person had the kind of like the the mental skills to understand So, you know to memorize the playbook and things like that and things changed obviously over time and Yeah, there's just there's not it's just not that kind of book like you said It's it's sort of like a like a book length profile. Yeah, the the geometry her teeth that had the geometry of freshly fallen snow I would be curious though like you all as are you as a patriots fan like what what parts of the book felt new to you Like what was information that you hadn't had before? I think I New Generally the beats of all of it to be honest. I think I wasn't I was interested in his time at Michigan I feel like I didn't know quite as much about the Details there and then I think It more felt like confirmation I think the book of like what we have suspected on the show based on his social media Over the past few years, so it's not necessarily something massively new But I think there were details that filled in areas of his life. I was like, oh, okay, so that the college stuff I think was was mostly illuminating, but we were saying it's interesting that they he didn't talk about social media that much No, the the social media is only really touched upon at the end of the book when we've talked to this a lot on our show that he joined Facebook in what 2012 2011? Yes, 2011 like this man has been a very public person online for quite some time and has Sort of been crashing out on the internet in a lot of ways And I thought it was interesting that that piece of his story and legacy wasn't really touched upon until right at the end I don't know. Did you feel the same way that his public persona kind of towards the end of his career? And then going into retirement was touched upon enough or do you feel like for you as a reader? It was satisfying and maybe we're just too sick of who are too deep in the Tom Brady internet presence I mean, I think that the book really portrays him as quite quirky You know, I think I mean, it's just I mean, I think I forget what which player it was now who said like man I didn't know that many Caucasian brothers who had cocoa butter in their locker room like I and I did think oh my god Yeah, that is really unusual and then just everything with like the TV 12 method and You know, I think someone responded to my piece They said, you know, it sounds like just I'll just really wanted to eat tomatoes again You know, I definitely got the impression that he was quite quirky and You know, and he was a bit of a nerd in in college and was, you know, making sure everyone did their homework And so I mean, I just definitely got the impression that he was sort of You know very unique As unique as as a snowflake as just know yeah geometrically perfect tea But no, I mean like what I mean, I don't know yeah, his how would I how do you all think of his kind of social media presence? I do I will say I find it really funny. I Someone appreciate when he crashes out I sort of you know, I I find it entertaining Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on the show, but I think it it humanizes Tom Brady his crash outs because they feel very personal and vulnerable in ways that you don't often see from public figures of his level Yeah, and I think that's maybe the most interesting element is that you're really Exposed to the inner workings of Tom Brady's mind even though again in the book so much of the book is about the fact that he's so he can You know predict what's gonna happen before anyone else sees what's gonna happen You know, so much of it is the mind games that he plays and he's able to kind of see clearer than most average people It seems but then when it comes to social media, it's this very vulnerable place where he is just like it everyone else Just going through it grappling with his mortality grappling with his retirement his identity And he's just happens to be doing it on a public platform. Yeah, so I think for me it humanizes him in a lot of ways I think it also just goes To his need for validation. I think that um, you know what the book does show is as you said he needs validation I think another thing that I learned was sort of the transition to Tampa Bay, the machinations of how he got there That was really fascinating and he just wanted a coach who was like gonna be nice to him, which I mean who among us You want a nice box? Yeah, but but also I think that Seeing the chip on his shoulder, um, it made us go back and actually look at his earlier social media because in the past two years He's used it sort of as in the book as they talk about, you know, middle finger to Giselle When he calls he the picture of him throwing a football he captions it true love Which is what she always said about his football career But if you go back and look he's been doing this for a long time like anytime he felt slighted by Belichick There's usually a post like starting in 2014 that matched up to that. Yeah So I think it's another tool for that under dog mentality to fuel his competition and also like try to settle some scores I mean he's a one thing I got from this book is that you know, he's quite emotional I mean, you know the night of the draft, you know, he went upstairs to his bed and you know laid and laid in bed And his father came and laid next to him because he thought you know, he was never gonna It was a it was a close-knit family and they were very emotional with one another very emotionally honest with each other And I think the thing that I got most from the book was that Tom really thought of himself as not good for so long that I do think that Probably like he thought like his you know that people couldn't see his talent But he lived with people he he's not like someone who was always perceived as perfect Who's now suddenly like failing like I think he always thought of himself as kind of failing in public or learning in public and So I don't know I mean in a way I I think it made it clear to me reading this book. I was like oh, yeah, he's kind of always He's always kind of figured that people think that he's a doofus So he's not like he's suddenly going to be insecure now Right. Yeah Yeah, I think you're right about that. I do want to talk about just a little bit more because Obviously the book opens with them on a first date at a wine bar And then Jacelle is obviously discussed quite frequently throughout the book Do you feel like by the end of the book that his point that basically his career is directly tied with the collapse of his marriage Or do you feel like the author Didn't hit the point home about the role the divorce played in his supposed kind of crash out and the end of his career and his retirement Um, I do think that the You know, it's I mean, it's hard to say because I think the book also mentions that there were other factors that you know He said to his father, you know, I'm tired of getting hit. He was getting older like he could he could sense like his vulnerability. I I definitely think that You know, yeah, the book is pretty clear that the end of this marriage Most likely came as a result of just you know, Jacelle getting frustrated with never feeling prioritized I mean at one point when she they're in Tampa Bay. She's homeschooling the kids because you know, there was just There, you know, there was this like you she couldn't plan for anything because it wasn't really clear like well What you know, where are we going next? What are we going to do next you are talking about retiring now you're unwritten now you're unwritten now You're retiring now you're unretiring it became possible for her to really kind of plan out the rest of her life and uh, you know, I think And was very expressive about this as Jacelle is yeah yeah, so um I don't know. I definitely think that the book makes the case that it was a big factor um That it just you know Sent him kind of spiraling. I mean, she really did keep the I mean, I got the impression from this book that Jacelle was just a phenomenal partner Yeah, um and so yeah, and you know, if if everyone has a with you have a great partner in your life I mean, I'm not saying you can be Tom Brady, but you can achieve incredible things and I think losing her was absolutely a um destabilizing in his life. Yeah, yeah um You know, Jen you you wrote them in your review how you love books about sports um and We we wanted to know you know, we talk a lot um about Documentaries about athletes um, I think we're going to probably start doing more books um It's interesting because they're just always written by men um, but you know, what are you going to do um not always but most of the time um What what do you think have been some of the most successful books about sports um that you've read and and what do you look for as a mark of Okay, this was a good sports book I mean, I think I mean, I'm sort of I guess bias in the sense that I'm like I'm not a sports journalist like I'm a sports fan But I'm certainly someone who I really I mean, I did a PhD in literature I you know, that's what I studied for most of my life. I'm always really interested interested in unusual narratives. Like for me, it's really hard to even, like, I don't know, I like to, I love tennis, for instance, but if I don't know who the players are and I don't have a sense of their backgrounds and their struggles and what they've overcome and the rivalries, then it's hard for me to get into it. Like I think I almost, you know, there's a little bit of, there's a really, there's like a really subtle reference to the Iliad in my review where I talk about Peyton and Eli as, like, Hector and Paris respectively to Tom. Achilles, and I was sort of surprised that someone on the internet made independently of me, had made kind of an Achilles comparison to Tom and this kind of, you know, this option that Achilles has given glory in the battlefield or being able to live on for generations and generations. They were comparing that to sort of the Tom Brady Jacelle, you know, dynamic. So for me, it's always, you know, when I'm just hearing about just only the athlete and they're kind of individual world and it can be a little boring. Like I need to, I need to hear like the adversity, I need to hear, I mean, I love like, I mean, it's almost a cliche at this point, but Andre Agassiz memoir open because it was just, I mean, I just don't, I can't think of anything else like that where you know, you have a player talking about, you know, really hating this thing that they were so great at, but then like having to, but still wanting to be great at it. And it was just such an interesting kind of set of, just kind of stakes of, it was a surprising narrative. But I think I say in the piece, you know, I'm always really like, you know, obviously a great sports movie is hoop dreams because yes, it's about basketball, but it's about so much more, it's about American society. It's about just like the function of sports in a lot of communities is the only way out, is the only kind of economic ladder. So I think those, those things like when they're sort of a surprising kind of human drama, you know, the surreal, like any, I really would just love to, I mean, I, I'm sure, I feel like I haven't read a biography of Serena, but I just, I mean, like, I mean, I think like, even, I mean, King Richard was great, but like, I don't know, to me, like so much of the story still hasn't been told, like, I mean, just the, I mean, just the fact that, you know, he, that he learned how to play tennis by getting tapes from the local library in Compton and then like taught himself and then like teaches his daughters and they become the two great, like the two greatest female tennis players of all time. I mean, it's just, so yeah, I think anything where there's just, where you're getting a sense of history, or just something that feels, I guess, at a Greek myth. Yeah, some tension. We always talk about it. Yeah, there needs to be tension at the center of the story. Do you really dislike the, the Steph Curry documentary I saw that he was, oh, well, he was neglected to mention that his father was an MBA player. That's just, yeah, I mean, that's a big one. Can you tell? Yeah, I, that was, I really, just like, yeah, I surprisingly, you know, usually I don't like when an athlete has some say in the documentary, but I really, I really enjoyed the Beckham documentary. Yes, yes. I like that one too. I can't figure out why, but it's just, it's like, no one had PR training. You just let everyone talk, which is so much better. It's such a more compelling product when they just let them talk, yeah, and the mother, the fact that his mother just like kept a list of anyone who ever criticized him. And she didn't like have to say what she was doing with this list. It's just, it was ominous that she was keeping it. Yeah, she had it. It was somewhere in a drawer. Yeah. Do you feel like there are any tropes or cliches that writers fall into when writing sportsbooks that just you're always like, oh, we're doing this now. I mean, I think it's just this idea. And I think it's, I think it's beyond sportsbooks, but I think this idea that you can't be a fan of someone and criticize them at the same time. I mean, I think that this is becoming more of an issue in the last decade where people can flake critique with cancellation. Because, yeah, why couldn't this have gone deeper into Brady's relationship with Trump? Or, you know, I mean, you know, why not? Why? Right, because there's this like notion that then people won't be on Tom's side. And that's just not the function of a biography. And it's also, I don't know, I think everyone really responds well to complicated figures. And yet we have this idea that you have to kind of sand people down in order to make them likeable. And I think that, I think refreshingly, Tom Brady doesn't, isn't like that. I don't like it. Yeah. He himself is not sanded down. He's not. Yeah, I mean, it's just a, what do you think besides, you know, adding the context? Like when you came away from this book where you like, yeah, good book. Like what, you know, it's such a binary of like, oh, I think I like that. Like I just curious of like when you're your top line thing, I'm like, would you recommend this book? I mean, I definitely, I read it, it was entertaining. And I, you know, it never was, it was not hard to, you know, it wasn't like I felt like I was trudging through anything. It felt very fun. It felt, he has a real, has a real talent for, you know, picking out details or, you know, to the point and vivid. And they did a ton, they got a, he and his team, he worked with a team, got just an incredible amount of interviews and quotes. And I definitely feel like it all, there's also a lot of aggregation here of stuff that's already been reported. So I think if you're, I don't know, yeah. And I think that even for people who don't really care about the just all stuff and don't really care about the marriage, there's just a lot about his early career and his relationship with his teammates. And the fact that, I think I talk about this a bit in the review too, the fact that because he was this underdog, you know, he was able to get along really well with his offensive line because at other place, you know, at other, on other teams, you know, who had some like hot shot quarterback, where, you know, they just sort of felt like, okay, he doesn't understand, he can't understand what it's like to be this part of this, like, you know, this kind of mass on, like, on the line, like, you know, this kind of like, thankless job. And people just sort of think of us not even as people, but like really just kind of bodies there to protect, you know, the brains, the quarterback. They did not see Tom Brady that way. They said, no, he is one of us. Like he was kind, you know, he was kind of this baseless draft pick, you know, at first. And so I thought that that was all really interesting and compelling and yeah, I would recommend it. I, yeah, yeah. I think it provided good context for his legacy. And obviously as Tom Brady Instagram experts that it was excellent confirmation that he does crash out on social media and that was put in print. Well, before we let you go, we do ask all of our guests the same question, which is what is your favorite sports gossip story of all time? It can be in any sport, it can be recent, it can be old. We're putting you on the spot, but we would love to know if there's something that immediately comes to mind, it could be just Ellen Tom, but it could also not. Yeah. Oh my goodness, well, you're gonna have to give me a minute. Sorry. Yeah, that's fine. I should have done my homework. Oh my goodness. Why am I totally. Well, anytime anyone's like who's your favorite athlete, I can't name a sickle athlete, so I don't know. What's my favorite music ever heard of an athlete before my life? Never heard of one. That's my question is like, what's kind of a gossip? But I guess one of my favorite, just sort of, hadty, gossipy kind of moments was when Serena was playing Maria Sharapova, and Serena's husband showed up in a dare t-shirt. I guess. Oh my God. I forgot about that. Yes, that was a very iconic moment. Because she had, for any listeners who don't know, she had been suspended for, you know, violating the drug policy at one point. Oh my God, Jen, that's great. That's so good. Yeah. Dare to keep kids off drugs. I was like, wow. I think whenever her husband annoys me being a tech bro on the internet, I remember that moment, and I'm like, okay, all right, I get it. I get it. Well, it was like, it was a beautiful silent protest. He didn't bring a sign in, he just wore a shirt and he's allowed to do that. Right, because there's just like that ridiculous idea that they had this rivalry. And it was like, there's no rivalry. Serena is absolutely dominant when it comes to head-to-head Maria Sharapova. Yeah, right. And then they had a lovely little moment when Maria wasn't she inducted into the whole fame and Serena gave a nice little, or was Serena inducted and Maria gave a, I think it wasn't it Maria inducted? Maybe I'm wrong, you might have been the other way around. I don't know. Either way, they were like, yeah, we're cool now. So yeah, yeah, yeah. - I'm glad they're cool now. I'm still not cool with Malaysia, but I mean, speaking of sports books, I mean, the way that she describes Serena's body, like how big she was, even though Maria's taller. And really, I'm holding a grudge. I don't have a darsh. I'm still wearing my metaphorical darshirt. - Well, it is fascinating where when athletes themselves are like, you know what, okay, I'll get over it. And fans are like, do you remember how bad it was? - I don't know. - You're like, seems like it's not like, why? Why are you over it? I don't know, like, don't get over it. You don't need to get over it. - No. - Yeah, yeah, I believe in girls. - That was a perfect story. We have not had that one on the show. - Okay. Oh, I'm glad I'm allowing us. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Thank you for allowing us to put you on the spot. - Yes. - I wasn't sure if it was gossip since it was like on-- - Like live TV, but anything-- - We define a sports guy if there's anything with tension at the center. Could it just anything interesting that is happening that helps maybe provide some context so what's going on on the field? Sometimes not, but just a sports story with tension at the center. - And, you know, to point if it's a little messy. Yeah, even better. So, we love it. Jen, thank you so much for having me find you and your work on the internet. - There could be people find me in my work. Go to thenewyorker.com, heard of it. (laughing) - Familiar. - But yeah, you can also follow me on Instagram. It's generous pour with a J. - Awesome, perfect. - Perfect. - Thank you so much. - Thank you. - Ah. - Ah. - Love that conversation. - It's also, it's just so refreshing to talk to someone who like doesn't have his posts memorized. - Yeah, we're like, well, I could bring up this specific postman. I was like, no, no, she has better boundaries. Better boundaries with Tom Brady's healthier person. - Yeah, yeah. No, I loved hearing your perspective about the book, what are thoughts where big is takeaways. And also just her talking about generally about sports books and the cliches that writers fall into. I thought that was super interesting as well. - The dare shirt pull, that was great. We put her on a spot, but that was a good one. - I can't believe, I forgot about that. - Yeah, that was great. - That was amazing. - Well, thank you so much for listening or watching or both, who's to say. And as always, please rate, review, like, and subscribe. I say this, but please do it. It makes a huge, huge difference. You can follow us on Instagram and sports gossip and TikTok at SportsGossipShow. And you can subscribe to our subsec at sportsgossipshow.com. Wow, nailed it. And that's our show. - Okay. - Okay. - Bye. (upbeat music)