238. "We’re in credit card debt again. Will this ever stop?"

One of my favorite articles in the New York Times was a weekend edition of what this model does on his days off. Now, you look at this guy. He looks beautiful. He looks amazing, super ripped. And on his Saturdays, his day off, what does he do? He does like a seven mile jog. He then does yoga. Then he goes and meets friends for brunch. They showed what he eats and all of it made it very clear why he looks the way he does. I was blown away and I loved it because finally I could see what it takes to look like somebody like that. He shared all the behaviors he does that I had no idea people do. I'm kind of obsessed with what people who are good with something actually do. Like people who are really good with their nutrition log into the menu of the restaurant they're going to before they get there so they can decide what they're going to order. What do you do if you're good with money? What are your special behaviors that you do that nobody else is doing? 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They've got ready to go beautiful templates for important things like your website, landing pages, plus they have helpful AI tools to make everyday tasks easier like generating discount codes and enhancing your product images. It's like having a full marketing team behind you. They've got easy to run email and special media campaigns to help you connect with new customers. And everything is in one place. Tackle your inventory, payments, analytics, and more without having to jump from platform to platform. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/remete. We're alike. We have all these credit cards that don't have any balances on them. Do whatever we want, and then we did whatever we want, and then we were right back into debt. We're ready for a thousand in credit card debt wasn't necessary. How long did it take you to go from out of debt with your credit cards to back in debt? I think it was less than a year or maybe. We can lose everything. House, car, our entire livelihood. What are some other ways to reward yourself? That's not spending money. I don't have one. That's how I always rewarded myself. I know I want to change, and I think I had convinced myself that I was changing. Just to put it very bluntly, you cannot actually change by tracking 250 numbers while eating Chick-fil-A 10 minutes away from home. Those two are incompatible. Listen to this line from today's guest's application. We have gotten in and out of $50,000 of debt at least five times over the course of our relationship. Why can't we figure it out? If you've ever wondered how people stay in this cycle of debt for years, listen to this conversation. Today I'm speaking to Otto and Gadden. They're married couple in their 30s. They live in Phoenix with their daughter, who's almost two years old, and together they earn almost $180,000 a year. And yet, they've been trapped in a cycle of credit card debt for the entirety of their relationship. They pay it off. They swear it'll be different the next time around, and somehow they end up right back in it. Now, their backgrounds explain a little bit of it. Both of them have experienced a lot of fear and conflicting money messages around money. But there's more. After all, they make a lot of money. So why can't they pay this debt off? What is stopping them? The question today is can they break free from this fear and chaos and actually start living a rich life? We're going to find that out soon. I'm about to open up Otto and Gabby's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth income and where they spend their money. This is the same tool that I use in every episode. Their assets, $238,400, investments, $10,569, savings, $1,000, debt, $387,362. That gives them a total net worth of negative $137,393. All right, fixed costs are 83%. I suspect this has a lot to do with some of their financial attitudes and behaviors. Investments, 0%, well, that explains a lot, savings, 9%, interesting, guilt-free spending, 8%. I don't believe that. I have a lot of questions, but before we dive in, a quick shout out to our new listeners. Welcome to Money for Couples. Drop a comment below and let us know where you are tuning in from. And please remember that our guests are real people sharing their personal stories. That takes a lot of courage. You got to ask yourself, would you come on a show like this, seen by millions of people and share every number from behind closed doors? Let's keep the comments supportive and judgment free. My community knows how hard it is to ask for help and I hope you will join us in rooting for every guest on this show. Now, let's get started with Otto and Gabby. Let's go back to the beginning of this debt cycle. When did it all begin? We both came into the relationship with debt. I think at the time I had maybe like 8 to $10,000 of debt. And Otto? Maybe like $2,500 if that. This is credit card debt or student loans. I was just talking separately. As usual, nobody counts student loans. They go, "Oh, student loans? That thing over there, which is totally non-dischargeable in bankruptcy." That doesn't count. Okay, so you're talking about credit card debt. Yeah, credit card debt alone. 8k for Gabby, 2k for Otto, and the student loans were a whole different thing. Yeah. All right, fine. I feel like when we moved in together, I think is when we sort of started to rarely deny ourselves, let's say. Why did that happen with the two of you versus independently? Well, I guess it also happened independently because you were both in credit card debt. So what happened when you two of you moved in together from a financial perspective? I think we had someone that, in a weird sense, gave us permission to do things we probably knew we shouldn't have. Because I think independently, yes, we had credit card debt. But obviously, us now being almost seven years later, we've given each other permission to go even deeper than we probably would have if we were still. Does it show up in any particular way? Like, one person's like, "Let's go out to eat." And the other one's like, "No, like, we should stick to our numbers." And the other one goes like, "Ah, come on, like, it's Friday." Any of that kind of stuff happened in your relationship? All the time. All the time. Who's the one who says it? Both of us at different times. Give me the example. So we'd be on a budget where I'm buying you clothes or anything and Gabby, for example. She's like, "Let's go to the mall." "Oh, we're just gonna look around. I'm not gonna buy anything." Of course, she walks right into her favorite store, Anthropology. And it's like, "Oh, look, this looks cute." And I'm like, "Hey, yeah, it looks cute." And then, "Oh, but this looks cute too." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that looks great. You should definitely get it." And Gabby's like, "No, we just like, we talked about a budget." I'm like, "Oh, but it looks so good on you. It's gonna make you happy. I already know it. Let's just do it." And that'll be the cycle for me anytime. She looks great in outfit, which she looks good in everything. And I'm like, "Okay, well, you have to get it." Because it looks great. Why wouldn't you get it? What about the reverse Gabby? Give me an example. With me, I would say sometimes it's related to food. Like, "Okay, we're gonna be in a budget. We're not gonna eat out as much. We're gonna cook at home." And, "Hello, I really don't want to eat anything. That's at home. Babe, let's go out to eat." Or, "We haven't been a breakfast in a while." Or, "Let's go out to dinner." And my bring up, like, "Oh, I thought we're in a budget." I'm like, "Well, actually, you know, you're right. Let's stay inside." I just like, "No, if you want to go, let's go." I'm like, "Okay, I do want to go. Let's get out of here. Let's go have dinner." What do you think is going on in these examples that you give me the clothing, the food? What do you first notice about the way that you describe it? As soon as I see Gabby's face light up about something that I mentioned or, you know, our face lights up. So, of course, I want to do it. And I notice that, I know if I bring it up, he's also going to want to get on board. Even if he's like, you know, we should stick to the budget, I also know that he wants to eat out as well. And the dance has begun. You remember those old 1920s videos, you know? It's very coy, and somebody taps on the shoulder, and then the other one goes, "How about a dance?" And then everyone's like dancing in circles, like they used to do. The dance has begun. So, Gabby brings up going out or a shirt. Auto says, "I want to make you happy." So, you go home with this bag in your hand, whether it's from Target or Anthropology or whatever. What happens then? Yilt. We'll get home, we'll get settled, and I will immediately start thinking, "I did not need this." And then? And then auto will swoop in and say, "No, you should. I'm glad you got it. You looked great. It's going to make you happy. You should keep it." 80% of the time. It'll make me feel better. And I will keep the item, And we will go on with life auto in your application, you wrote, we've gotten into debt and out of debt at least five times. And now we are back in debt. If you had to describe how that happened in one sentence, what would you say? We never told ourselves no. Got it. And hearing yourself say that out loud, how does that feel? Gratful. Now in the moment. Great. Okay. I appreciate the candor. Gabby, what about for you? What is when you hear auto describe that? What do you think? I think that we were consistently living above our means. And similar to what he said, we were living in the moment. And we enjoyed the moments. But now I agree. It feels actually, no, I don't feel like I regret it because I really enjoyed the thing that we did some of it. But I sometimes wish that we had denied ourselves a little bit more and lived a little less in the moment and more for the future. When you are living in the moment, what feels good about it? Give me an example. One of the things I think of as us living in the moment is when we traveled to Europe two years ago, we were in Switzerland and went to an amazing spa that cost I think a thousand dollars a person. And it was luxurious and calming and relaxing and everything that we needed. And that felt good. Really good. So when I say don't regret, it's moments like that. The moments I do regret is going to target and dropping two three hundred dollars and not having anything to associate that with the money. If that makes sense. How do you decide when you're going to target or when you're going to a Swiss spa if you can afford it? Wow, both smiling. Okay. Sorry. What's the answer? We don't. We just do it. And then we figure it out later is what historically has happened. Do you figure it out? I mean, it gets paid. Does one way or another? How did that Swiss spa get paid for? So that was earlier in the trip. So we still had the budget for that. It was things later in the trip that caused us to go over budget. And then when we got home, we were a little bit tight for a month or two because we had overspent on our trip. How did you make it up when you got back home? Working extra. Yeah. Ah, both of you? I think at the time it was mainly auto. So I work traditional nine to five. And he has more of a traditional R and 12 and a half hour schedule. So he had the ability to pick up more within a week's time frame. So was it worth it to you auto? Like when you were working the extra shifts a month later, were you like, yeah, I'm fine with this because we had that beautiful spa experience or were you like, I don't like this. When it's to repay or remake up something like that, not regret it at all. I would do it any day. But when it's to repay things like random little trips, you know, like we went to Target and spent 500 dollars on new betting because it was the beginning of the pandemic. And we didn't know what to do. We're just inside the house. And I'm like, I want to make it look better. So we went to Target and spend a bunch of money. Those things, yeah, I regret it. I don't want to work extra for those. But going to Hawaii, going on any trip that like we make memories, I don't regret it any bit. And the dance continues at a different day at a different time. Beautiful. Do you see what I'm doing with my fingers here? It's the dance. Beautiful. We love dancing. I mean, I always feel like after that situation, we always have like an outsider looking and type of realization. But we forget. It's like, Target, what's already spent. We'll just move on. We'll make better decisions next time. I know we don't. I know we don't. I know we don't. And then we don't. And then here we are talking to you about it. We just do it. And then we figure it out later. Gabby, what do you think hearing this dance? That it's a cycle I'd like to break because it's not sustainable. Would you though? Candidly, the dance sounds great to me. What's the problem? It actually sounds quite nice to me. We have different priorities now that we have a kid. That's my main thing is that we have different priorities. How old is your kid? Just 21 months. 20 months. Okay. Gabby, is that your answer? Because what do you, I mean, like I said, it sounds good to me. No, that's not the only answer. I am tired of this dance because that has cost us thousand of dollars. Hmm. Why? You told me that you figure it out when you get home. Auto works extra. He doesn't really resent it except when you spend extra at Target or things that are not particularly memorable. It costs us monetarily and it costs us having quality time as a family because we have to work and make it up and pay for it. And clothes aren't that important to me anymore. They used to be. I feel like I held a lot of value in what I wore in my appearance, but I don't feel that way anymore. At least not as much. When did that change? Was it 21 months ago? Probably, yeah. Before you judge auto and Gabby spending, take a second to reflect on your own habits. In my opinion, almost every couple has their version of this dance. Maybe it's not credit card debt. Maybe it's buying the latest smartphone, even when your current phone works fine or splurging on a weekend getaway because you deserve it or upgrading your car when the old one is still running smoothly. Now, some couples have a dynamic where one person temps the other by dangling a carrot and then that person gives in. You both know better, but you do it anyway. And then you promise next time we'll be different or you say things like we've got to do better. But it really never is because that is the system and the dynamic that you have built. But auto and Gabby are not just dancing for two anymore. They have a little girl. She's watching and learning how money works from her parents. She's developing her relationship with money, which she's going to carry into adulthood. So I want to know why they keep spending money the way they do. Let me try to find out next. You mentioned earlier in the conversation student loans not be dischargeable in a bankruptcy. I was filed for bankruptcy in 2016. Did it go through? My bankruptcy, yes. But I didn't realize what I had to do for my student loans. They sent me my first student loan payment and it was $827. My income was not what it is now. And I couldn't afford that. So I just, I was like, well, I'm not paying this. I can't afford this and just didn't do anything for about seven years about a second. You declared bankruptcy before you and Gabby were together. Correct. Why? It's car car, it's its car. I don't know. I like to buy a brand new car. So these hamburgers. Because I couldn't afford anything else. Gabby, did you know this when you both got together? Yeah, you did. I told you. Okay. Yeah. Did you talk about debt before you got in a relationship? Not that I can recall. You know what's interesting? Money is almost never a concern for people when they're dating. Truthfully, nobody really cares. If you like somebody, they go, oh, I have student loans. Nobody cares. Oh, I have $20,000 in credit card debt. That sucks. People do not connect money to their future as shocking as it is to hear. It is extremely rare that people will discover something about their partner, debt, financial infidelity, any of it, and actually change or end a relationship. It almost never happens. So I'm not surprised here. Are you ever skeptical of your relationship, the two of you together when you're discussing money? I ask because you have not been successful at paying off your debt and keeping it off. I really like talking about money. That won't be honest. Innocent, yeah. I remember maybe three or four years ago. We were on vacation, actually, at the time. And I was feeling so anxious about our money situation, how much we had spent. We were in Marcosca, Croatia. Okay. All right. Which is a beach town in Croatia. We like to travel. And we had just had a beach day and we came back in the room. And I am the one who is, I guess, the money person in the relationship. I like to keep tab them looking and I'm like, oh, we're already over budget. I'm like, you know, I really wish we could just have a fresh start and we just did not have credit card debt. I'm like, you know what, babe? I'm going to play for a personal loan, a debt consolidation loan. At the time auto, I'm pretty just sure with like, okay, like just kind of like off kind of doing his own thing in the room. And I applied for it and we got it. And I am over the moon. I'm so excited. I'm telling him how this is a fresh start for us. And this is going to be the time we need to stick to this budget. He's like, you always get really excited when we're paying off that. I'm like, yeah, because I feel like this is going to be the time. And I feel like in that moment, he was probably feeling skeptical. Like, okay, this is going to be the time. Wow. This is going to be the time as we're currently on vacation in Europe with like two more weeks of our vacation to go. Very, very powerful observation auto. Let me repeat it for everybody. You get so excited. When, what was it, Gabi? When you are about to pay off debt, is that right? Yep. Funny though, you weren't about to pay off debt. You're actually about to take out more debt. Auto, what did you mean by that observation? I find it very intriguing. What it's like, it's it's standing saying, I have a budget of a Nissan versa, but you're standing in a BMW dealership saying, oh, yeah, this is going to be great for us, but we don't have the budget for this. So that's why I'm like, you don't have the budget for BMW. You have a budget for Nissan versus, so why are you? Why are you so happy about this to be in this place? That's interesting. I read it a little differently. Like, in my opinion, what Gabby was doing was she's in debt, driving a BMW at the BMW dealership. And then she says, you know what? We should get a Nissan as well. That will be cheaper than getting another BMW. Like, taking out a personal loan is not paying off debt. It's actually just taking out more debt. The shift. The way that you said we got approved, you should actually be dreading that. You should be angry at the personal loan company, mother f*** you personal loan company for allowing us to apply and for agreeing because you know, we're not creditworthy. But we are doops. We got duped into thinking that taking out more debt is winning. You're not winning. You chose to lose. Do you recognize that now? Now, yes. And how are we doing with the personal loan? Oh, it's paid off. And how about the credit cards? We'll get to that in the conscious spending plan. Okay. You've gotten in and out of debt around five times auto, you mentioned. What happened when you got out of debt? That's what I want to know. How'd you do it? Different way. So one of the times unfortunately, Gabby's father passed away and he had a like life insurance policy. So we use majority of that money to pay off debt. How much? It was around 50,000. Okay. So besides soonalones, besides, it was just like credit cards and like, I think we paid off Gabby's car at the time. And then we were like, now we have all these credit cards that don't have any balances on them, do whatever we want. And then we did whatever we want. And then we went right back into debt. We're very efficient. I think it was less than a year maybe. Okay. We literally just did whatever we wanted. We bought whatever we wanted, went to wherever we wanted. When we booked our trip a few years ago to Europe, we're like, oh, first class upgrade. Cool. I've never been on a first class fight. Let's do it. It was great. Money doesn't come into the question like a first class upgrade. That's a lot of money. You know, I can understand like, hey, let's get an extra bag of peanuts at Target or something. But like a first class upgrade, that's a lot of money. Most people would pause and be like, wait, $3,000 or $11,000. It was actually with $700. That's why we were like, oh, we could afford a bit. Well, I afforded probably not the right term to use it for that. But we're like, oh, well, this won't even to our budget too much. Let's do it. So we did. So 700 bucks for that doesn't flash like a signal. How else did you get out of debt after you ran up the credit cards a year later? Dex consolidation month. Okay. So we've had at least three. You have a second mortgage on the condo that my family owns. Oh, you took out a second mortgage on the family condo to pay off the credit card debt? Yeah. This last time. Yes. Yes. Got it. What's the type of conversation happening when you're doing these things like debt consolidation, second mortgage? Do both of you believe what you're saying when you're having that conversation? And the moment. Yeah. I believe it and I'm hopeful to very hopeful that this is going to be the last time. I end the moment. I'm like, this is on the same page. Yeah. You got this. This is it. Was there ever something you were considering buying or did buy that did flash signal? It said, whoa, that's a lot of money. Not really honestly. Okay. I just feel like we could technically afford it because I could technically work. That's how I thought about it. This is the this is the plight of people who work on like a freelance or hourly basis or can pick up shifts. They start to calculate everything by number of hours. I can pick up three shifts and like, that's fine. All the time. I'm like, oh, I just have to work this many more hours or lower time and I could do it. Yeah. It was a lot. It's a trap. Yeah, it is because it's not my job is not very easy to be just picking up extra shifts. Like last year, I worked 24 days in a row during our hottest season, which means a lot of very dead people came into our facility that we had to revive. So working 20, I literally tell Gabby like, I feel like I am a or a veteran coming out of something and I don't even know how to function at home. Meanwhile, she was not functioning well at home because we had a six month old. What else changed for you when it was, did you have a boy or a girl? A girl. Okay. What changed for you when you had your daughter? So I had a very traumatic birth and both me and my daughter almost died. And I feel like that moment changed a lot for all of us. I feel lucky to be here. I feel very lucky that she's here and the things that mattered before do not matter to me. What matters to me now is being healthy, spending time with my family while I'm here and making memories with them. And so I'm willing to spend money on travel. It did do and to see things that I've never seen before with my family, but to spend money on frivolous things that I deem as personally frivolous is not my priority anymore, so my goal. I could care less about it a shirt or going to the mall. What I do care about is getting to the point that auto doesn't have to work as much, that I don't have to work as much so that we can get time back because this time is being spent at work to pay for the things we've done, whereas I want that time spent as a family. Okay. I think I understand. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It sounds awful. Otto, do you feel the same way? Is that the major change that happened when your daughter was born financially speaking? Yes, and I think also more recently are, I'm transgender. I've been out after the last like three or four years. And with the most recent political things, I don't shield as safe. After I really felt very safe, I'm a right, I'm a Muslim refugee from Bosnium. My dad stayed back to fight in the war and I was with my mom and older sister and everybody. She can't. Wow. I was seven days old when we had to leave our town. I mean, I try to sit as a now, but I think more so my goal has changed from like spending money, you know, just randomly to trying to get out of the country. And so that's the biggest motivator for me to get on the right path. And that's like that's when I said I want to land for next steps, it's next steps so that we could go. We are supposed to be in in Europe in September. And now it's October and we're not there and our plan has shifted to five years from now. God, this makes me so mad. I'm that we live in a country where someone who fled a genocide no longer feels safe to live here with his family. I think it's very troubling that we have entire groups of people who don't feel safe simply for existing. You know, I watch a lot of horrible things online and very little of it affects me much. I've seen a lot of I see some of the comments people make towards me. What do you want to make fun of my eyebrows? Go ahead. But I watch these ice videos of families being ripped apart. No warrants, masked men refusing to identify themselves. People being sent to foreign torture prisons illegally. And it sickens me. Now, why am I talking about this? Isn't this just an innocent money podcast? Well, the answer is that money is political. Politics is why your housing is expensive. Why your health care is expensive. And why guys like me get huge tax cuts while poor and middle class Americans get huge fees and costs burden on them. You know, it's funny. Once in a while, I see reviews of this podcast where people say, "Romeat got too political." Deep down, they want me to teach them how to maximize their credit card rewards and then shut my mouth. I'm going to be really direct. That's never going to be me. If you want someone to give you five ways to save on sourdough bread, I'm not the right person for you. What I do show you is how to use your money to live a rich life, how to invest, how to craft your money, and how to be generous with other people. So in light of this, I'm going to start highlighting organizations that I want us as a community to support. For example, my wife and I have donated to Immigrant Defenders Law Center, which is a non-profit organization. They provide free legal services to refugees and asylum seekers. I'm going to ask you to donate and leave a comment below telling me why you did. Small amounts make a big difference, especially with a community of our size. Right after this break, we're going to get back to Otto and Gabby and dive into their CSP. Thank you for listening and thank you for supporting the causes that I myself support as well. I really appreciate you both sharing what you did with me. Sometimes, I'm a little dismissive when people run up a bunch of debt and then they have a son or a daughter and then they go, "I want to do it all for the kids." And the reason that I'm a little dismissive of it, I probably shouldn't, and I think you're both a great reminder. But the reason that I don't love that reasoning is if you can't make a change for yourselves, it is very difficult. to just take that focus and focus it on a little baby. A baby can be spiritual and can change everything, but it doesn't change the way that you look at money and treat money. You have to do that yourself. What I'm hearing from you is you actually have a bigger reason. You have a bigger, much more powerful reason. And I'm grateful for that, because you probably have to make some serious changes today. Would you both agree? - Absolutely. - Yeah, absolutely. - Can we take a look at the numbers? - Let's take a look at the numbers, perfect. - Gabby's always been into finances. I knew she'd be excited about this. - And I was, I was excited and I was shocked that he had applied, truthfully. - It's kind of interesting, right? Like auto, you applied because you want Gabby to be happy. You find that interesting? - Because I feel like Gabby and I talk about our finances more recently and we thought we had a very good plan. It's been going okay, but we're still not sure how to get to where we want to be. And when I say it's been okay, it's us paying off debt. That's literally our conversation. - All right, let's take a look at the CSP. Gabby, can you read off in the net worth box, the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please? - Yes, assets $238,400. In investments, $10,569. Savings, $1,000. - debt $387,362 for a total net worth of negative $137,393. - All right, how do you feel about those numbers? - I wish that they were different, but this is where we're starting and we're gonna change things. - How do you feel about those numbers? - Like, (beep) - Why? - Because I wish they were different, but these are all the choices we've made. - What do you see when you look at these numbers? - It's something where it happens to one or both of us. We would not be doing very well. In terms of paying bills, in terms of debt, we have no emergency fund. We have nothing to fall back on. That's not enough savings to get us through a week, truthfully. - What would happen? - We can lose everything. - House. - House, car, our entire livelihood. - I'll read off some of the subaccounts that you noted here. His student loan, $91,000. Her student loan, $26,000. Credit cards, $44,000. IRS, $23,000. A air conditioning loan, $16,800. Auto loan, $12.6K. Family loan, $5,400. And home loan, $166,000. What do you see when I share those numbers out loud? - Choices. And I feel anxiety. I feel regret. - Which parts do you feel regret over? - The credit card. Especially, I just think it wasn't necessary. We're going to do $4,000 and credit card debt wasn't necessary. - A lot of things aren't necessary. - This is true, but $44,000. That's not including, like our bills are paid. All those things, this is just extra. Did we really need it? - Did you? - No, we did it. Did we want it? Yes. And now we're at the point where we're going to have to pay for it and pay for it, sacrifice this time. - Okay, I don't know what about you. What do you see when I share those debt numbers? - I feel like it buying, I'm not blaming my parents, but if I feel like it buying below the more guidance, I feel like some of these choices wouldn't have been made. - Otto, can you read off your combined monthly income please? - $14,830. - That's the gross, so combine the two of you make $177,960. Did you know that? - It's actually more. - How much more? - This is a net, like take home anywhere between 6,000 to the highest, 18,000. - 18,000 a month net? - Yeah, in January of this year he brought home $18,964. - What the (beep) - You're a nurse, right? - Yeah. - So I make like $43, almost $44 an hour. - That's 80K, 85K, 86K, something like that. - Yeah, so plus with like our extras that we have, I just make a lot. - Plus he was working at night at the time. - And what does that get you? - I, 18% difference. - Oh. - They launch base pay. And then we have like with this thing's called PSSP and you get like an extra $500 per shift. - Wow. Gabby, are you a nurse as well? - I am. - Do you have the same situation? - No, so he works traditional R&D schedule of 12 and a half hour shifts. I'm an R&D case manager, so I work 5,8 and a half hour shifts. - 5,8, okay, got it. - Well, let's take a look at this 'cause this is quite interesting. So your net right now is $10,860, combined. We show auto's take home as $6600, but you're telling me that it could go up to as much as $18,000 in a month. - Yeah. Last paycheck this month, he made $10,666 net. - So is it like auto if you're just like, I want to make $10,000 next month, you can reliably do that? - Pretty often. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - We were trying to be conservative like if he didn't work a bunch of extra shifts like this is what our take home would be, but realistically with us trying to get out of debt to accomplish these goals, he's been able to pick up more to allow us to get out of debt faster. - All right, I have a vision of what we're going to have to do. You might not like it, but you don't have to like everything I suggest to you. You may just want to think about it and hopefully do it. We'll get to that. - Okay. - This costs are 83%. Now, what do you feel anxious about money? Anyone with an eight in front of the number on their fixed costs is going to feel anxious, worried, scarce about money. It's too much. - Yeah. - You can't do it. Let's take a look though. It's your debt payments at $3,75 a month that are the most expensive. Now, let's take a look. You got Discover, Sapphire, Freedom, MX, MX Gold, City, Venture, Platinum, Quicksilver, what the f***? Why do you have so many credit cards? - Living above our beans. When I say that, it was during a time when we were heavily in debt, I mean, we're still in that time, truthfully. I believe we weren't in debt and was like, oh, our credit score is really good. Let's see if we can get this card. - Why? - For no good reason. - Good or stupid? - We just think. - No, you're not stupid. You're rewarding, you're being rewarded by the wrong things. - Yeah. - Investments are at zero. You are doing a little bit of pre-tax investment about $1,100 a month, which is good. Moving along, your savings are at 9%. Okay. Well, this is obviously a lie. $1,000 a month to the emergency fund. And guess how much they have in their emergency fund? $1,000. So, what did you guys set this up like two days ago? - You know, in the last month. You know, like, just coincidentally, we're going to talk to Remete's AT. Let's set that freaking savings account up, huh? - You know, we've had those savings account for them for all of our relationship. It's just been, there's sometimes been zero and there's sometimes been 10,000 and other times there's been less. Like when Gabby gave birth, we had about 12,000 in savings and I just started working at the job I'm working and her insurance for maternity leave didn't kick in. And I had to take on pay time off because of the traumatic birth. So we relied on those savings. - That's like a good example of an emergency. That is a good example of one. For sure. You know, it's interesting that people's relationship with their savings account. I think your example for both of you with this traumatic birth, perfect example. I would have tapped that in a split second just like you did, great work. Parent that's super sick. You need to get on the first plane at an airport. I don't care about costs. I'm getting on the first plane. Boom. Those are the kind of things we're talking about. But the fact that you have $1,000 in savings is extremely problematic. - It's very much so alarming. - Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Your fixed costs are $9,000, so it wouldn't even last you a week. - No. - That's it. If the two of you are not basically performing at the top level when it comes to work, that's it. The whole House of Cards collapses. And then finally, okay, your guilt-free spending says $8% or $838 a month. I don't really believe that number. Do you? - No. - Okay. You eat out and stuff, right? - Yeah. - That was a very quick, yeah. How many times a week do you eat out? Uh-oh. It's out of the smile. Here we go. - We just went out last week. We just went out last week. - We went out this morning. - Oh, I'm proud about that. - Where'd you go? - We went to Chick-fil-A. We had doctor's appointments this morning, so we went in fasting. And then the words we had and eat obviously wouldn't bring anything with us. We're like, "Oh, let's stop and get something to eat." - What do you mean? Obviously, we didn't bring anything with us. - Oh, I shouldn't say obviously. We did not plan and we didn't bring anything with us to eat afterwards. So the only choice that was left was to get something on the way home. - I think it's just like, "Oh, it's just $15.20 bucks." - Didn't you tell me that, you know, as of 21 months ago, with your daughter and the desire to move and et cetera, like we have a new motivation? - Absolutely. - I mean, I can't afford things. - Well, you can't afford them. - We paid debit. - Sorry. - We're not trying to be approved, I promise. - Let me read you the numbers. Otto, you have $387,000 in debt. You have a $91,000 student loan. She has a $26,000 student loan. You have $44,000 in credit card debt. IRS $24,000, air conditioning $16, home loan $12,000, family loan $5,000, and then a home loan of $166. I don't think you can afford it. Do you? - Within the budget that we set, what's the budget? like seven odds or everything for two weeks. - No, this is for a month that says $838. - Oh, with the budget that we currently have, include him having more income. So we give ourselves $750 per pay period. And in that, we get gas, we get groceries, eating out any diapers or wipes we need for our daughter. So as long as it stays within that $750, that's what we mean where we say it's in the budget. Do you notice the mental gymnastics around rationalizing a freaking Chick-fil-A purchase? We can afford it, we pay debit, it's in the budget. Truthfully, this is less about their actual numbers and more about the narrative that they have created for themselves. We all tell ourselves stories about ourselves. We actually specialize in creating stories about ourselves, such as how much energy we have, how tired we are after work, how much physical activity we can take. And of course with money, we specialize in telling ourselves stories that do not match up with the actual numbers. It's incredibly common for people with high debt to engage in these mental gymnastics to rationalize their spending. Most people have a total lack of connection between today's decisions and tomorrow's consequences. Like if I asked you, how is that new car you're gonna buy going to affect your retirement? You'd have no idea. The vast majority of people would not. They told me what matters in their rich life. Time together, a future overseas, freedom from all this stress. But when you look at their actual behavior, they are spending money on Chick-fil-A. Which by the way, is actually not anyone's rich life. I've talked to millions of people, not a single person has ever said, "Ramit, say, T, I f***ing love Chick-fil-A, it's my rich life." Never said it, never said it about target, never said it about frequencies candy, never. Random commodities are not part of your rich life. I can promise you that. This is just comfort food that allows an escape from an otherwise mundane reality. Now you could disagree with me. You could say, "Ramit, say, T, I love Arby's roast beef sandwiches. That is part of my rich life." I have two responses to that. Number one, why do you have the palette of a stray dog? Number two, I don't really think that is your rich life. I just don't believe it. I don't believe that when you look back on your time on planet earth, that you're gonna put in your top five areas of your rich life, Arby's roast beef sandwiches or hot tamales or freaking forbrees. It's not gonna happen. It's gonna be bigger, much more meaningful things like being able to spend time with my kids, being able to support a friend when they need help. It's meaningful, big things I have never heard somebody say, "Tie detergent is my rich life." Now what's interesting here is that it's gonna be challenging for them to actually start living their rich life until they pay off their debt. And they can't pay off their debt until they get control of their spending. So what's this budget they keep mentioning? I wanna see their numbers, which we're gonna do right after this break. - We have a budget that we stick to in terms of, we call it our living expenses account. We try to stay in that account, meaning that once that money is gone, it's gone. And we try not to pull from savings to replenish it. - Can I see the budget? - Yeah. - Who maintains it, by the way? - Me. - All right, let's go back to October. - All right, where is it? There we go, all right. So let's take a look at what I see here. I see $13,500 coming in, $12,602 going out, which means there's $402 left to spend. Moving along to bills, money going out, we get just like a list of stuff here. Rent, HOA, Netflix, AppleCare, blah, blah, blah, blah. Insurance, okay, fine. And then we have expenses. Oh, I'm very interested in this. Okay, so we have coffee shop, Costco, date night, date night is $170 so far, daycare, diapers, eating out, formula, gas, groceries. We have self-care, target, vehicles. All right, so we have all this stuff. So what does this budget tell you? - That we have a lot of work left to do. - That's not an answer. - That we're still over spending. - Does it say that? - No, it doesn't. - Like if you walked in to see a patient and you saw the report, you know, by their bedside or whatever, you open it up, you look at it. It tells you something, right? They had a heart attack or whatever happened. It tells you something. What does this budget tell you? - It tells me where money's going 'cause I feel like for a long time. - Hold on, I'll stop you right there. Okay, you track it all and what does tracking it all tell you? When you look at the numbers and you track it all, what do you learn specifically about your spending? - But not a lot has changed. - Yeah, I think you're wasting your time. I don't think your financial situation is improving. You're tracking all this stuff. There's like 500 cells in this budget. What's the point? I can't tell what is the number one thing to take away from that budget. There's so many freaking numbers on there. Can you? - No. - What's the point of it? - I feel like it gives me comfort in a sense. - How to wear you on this? - I hate that budget. It's two numbers, it's not, it's complicated. I do not like tracking every one of my expenses. I don't, I don't want it to do that. - Yeah. So is this what happened? Both of you in debt going through a series of like, oh, we got this money, we'll pay it off. We got that money, we're paid off back in this debt cycle. So then Gabby goes, okay, I know what we're gonna do. We're gonna keep a budget. We, but it's really I, Gabby, you download this budget from somewhere, it has like 10 gigillion numbers on it. And then every month, meticulously tracking every number, but not actually changing anything about the way you spend money. Did I get that right? - Yeah. - Guys, motivation is not enough to change this. This requires a complete recalibration of your relationship with money. I'll take that budget, take it out back, bury it. But I have to encourage you, Gabby, we are not looking for confidence, okay? Confidence does not come from a spreadsheet. Trust me, confidence comes from competence. And competence comes from actually changing the way that you are treating your money. And auto, you can't be like, I hate money, so Gabby's gonna track it and as long as it's okay, I'm gonna spend it, can't do it. That's part of the dynamic that's gotten you into this situation. - Yeah. Are you both prepared to change the way that you relate to money? - Please, God, yes. Sorry. - Take a second. - What's happening, Gabby? Sorry, I didn't catch that before. - No, it's. I think it's part of the realization that like, I know I want to change. And I think I had convinced myself that I was changing. And I feel like it's the realization that actually was not happening. I was telling myself that no behaviors have changed. And the tears are because I'm realizing that. Like I was making myself feel better by telling myself this story. - Yes, just to put it very bluntly, you cannot actually change by tracking 250 numbers while eating Chick-fil-A 10 minutes away from home. They are simply incompatible. And I say that specifically because neither one of you told me that your rich life is eating Chick-fil-A. I (beep) No, it's not. You told me that. You said my rich life, I regret spending all this money at Target and stuff that's not creating memories. I want to travel. I don't feel safe and spending 20 bucks at Chick-fil-A which indicates you spend way more than that over the course of a week. You told me that's not what you want to do. And yet your behavior is doing exactly that. And I appreciate that you're acknowledging that. Sometimes we do cry. When we realize the thing that we claim is important to us is not how we are living our life. I don't mind it. That realignment is painful sometimes but I'd rather go through the pain and then realign. - 100%. - So the question Gabby is how much are you spending on discretionary spending per month? Clothes, eating out, coffee, travel, fun stuff. - You know what will give us a more realistic picture is probably looking at September. - Okay, wow, a lot of red. The number in the CSP says 838. What's the actual number down there? - $1597 and 96 cents. - Right there we've doubled what you thought you spent. And that took us five seconds. We also have not included travel. How many trips per year? One, two. - Typically, it's been at least one. - I don't want at least, I want at most. What's the most? - Three. - Three. - And how much is each trip cost? - If we're visiting family, down south, probably about 2,000 that including the flight, we went to Hawaii this year and that total cost us about 6,000. - Let's say 4,000 each. Let's round up to 5,000 'cause I think sometimes they're hidden expenses that we don't account for like taxis and blah, blah, blah tips, whatever. Let's just say 5,000 times 3,15,000. That's an extra 1250. So we've just doubled it again. You're spending what? 2700 or something like that. Per month on discretionary spending. We haven't included birthday parties. We haven't included any one off expenses. But we're already at, let's just round up and say $3,000 a month. I would bet it's probably, closer to $4,000 per month. What do you make of that? - I would agree. - Okay. And what do you, what does it tell you, auto? - That we don't really know where our money is going, and even though we have a budget, this is where our money is going. - Because if you go back to on some of that budget, if you go back months, months, months, there's never been a category whereas it's been zero. Or where hasn't been read? - Yeah, it's a funny thing that people do. They track things, even though it's read, every single month they're failing and they're just like, "Hey, I know what I'll do, I'll keep tracking this." They don't actually change anything, they just track it. The big takeaway that you did not indicate, which I'm trying to get you to realize, is you are spending more than you make every single month. You're not getting out of debt, you're getting more into debt. So the fact that you can put it on a debit card for 20 bucks, okay, that's great, but you're actually getting more into debt every single month. At $838, that's all of your money left over. That's $838. When the number is actually like $4,000, let's say $3,500 or whatever, just for easy math, you're broke. You're spending more than you make every single month. That is the meaning that I want you to understand, is that tracking won't solve it. You actually have to substantively change your relationship with spending. - I don't think I realized that, to be honest, I think I'm kind of blindsided by it because I'm thinking, okay, this one instance we're spending, let's just say $7,500 on a trip. That one instance, not how much I make the rest of the year. It's like, okay, I have $7,500 right now. I pay it off and we're good. I don't think about it spreading through the entire. - It is a little complicated because in the months where you spend more, you probably make more, right? So that's why you're spending flexes with your income, right? - Yeah. - And do you set that up, Gabby? - Yeah. - So you tell them like, hey, this month, I know you're gonna work extra hours, so we're gonna spend more on XYZ, is that how it works? - Yeah, but typically it's we're gonna pay off more on XYZ, but subsequently we also spend more because there's more money coming in. - So you're not getting ahead. The debt is racking up anyway because you're paying some towards it, which is good, but it's not aggressive. I could tell it's not aggressive 'cause you took a $5,000 trip to Hawaii this year. Guys, couples who are in credit card debt do not take vacations. - We've taken a vacation every year, so it's what we've been together. - I know. - And we go for a month to Europe, yeah. - Wait, I thought you told me the vacation's only $3,000. How do you spend $3,000 for a month in Europe? - We spent a month because it doesn't make sense to go any less to seek my family. - How much is it cost? - $10,000 and think it's more than that. - You like? - Probably like 15 to 18,000. - All right, and that happens every couple of years? - Yeah. - Every year. - It's up this year. - Every year, except this year. - Not every year, we've only done it twice. So. - Okay. - Do you hear that there's a lot of like, well, there's this, but not this, but this one, this one, do you notice that? There's a lot of kind of debate over the minutia. What's the actual takeaway of what I'm hearing right now? - We don't know our numbers. - Correct, and $15,000 every other year is still a ton of money. So when you tell me like, oh, we're serious about paying off, you're not serious. You're not serious because it doesn't show in your spending. Couples in this kind of debt do not take $15,000 vacations. They just don't, not if they want to pay off their debt. - Well, we didn't take one this year because we were trying to not do that. - But I really wanted to go see my family, we just couldn't afford it. - That's great. Every time we, well, we went to Hawaii instead, but every time we've taken a month off, it's been unpaid from work because we can never, I personally can never have any time loss. - But Otto, what's the point? What are we talking about right now? - I don't know. - I really am. - I was saying stuff. - Does it happen a lot where you guys get in the weeds? - Yeah. - What's the point that I was making? You're spending $15,000 every other year at least. You can't afford it, you cannot. And you have not properly added that to your monthly spending. $15,000, that's an extra $1,250 per month that should properly be going. So when I told you, you're probably spending an extra $1,000 a month, there you go, right there. You guys are spending more than you make and you're going into more debt. No amount of tracking stuff is gonna tell you that, but a simple, just like looking at the major expenses in your life and being honest about them will. What does that tell you? - And no change has been made, really. - Agreed, Gabby? - That we're stuck in the same cycle. - Yes. Can you describe the cycle to me now? - We don't decide, we can report something, we just do it. - Yep, we'll figure it out later. - We figure it out later every time. - Which is always Otto. Yeah, you should ban that phrase from your household, figure it out later, no fucking way. We're not figuring anything out. You should respect your time so much that you stop giving yourself homework in the future. This is exactly why I hate budgets. Gabby has been tracking every expense, spending hours, inputting every transaction into this spreadsheet, and yet she missed the only detail that matters. They are spending more than they make. That's it. What is the point of tracking every little thing when you miss the big picture? I'll tell you, when people dive into these complex budgets, it gives them the illusion of control. They feel like because it takes so much time and there's so many colors that they are being meticulous, but in reality, they are missing the big picture. They are essentially wasting their time and that is a very painful lesson for us to accept. It's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You're busy, you feel like you're productive, but you're not actually being effective in addressing the real issue. The freaking ship is sinking. This is exactly why I designed the conscious spending plan. Instead of having to track 10 million numbers and looking backwards, you can look forward and make sure that the four key numbers you track are aligned with your rich life. Now, I know a lot of you have already downloaded, maybe use the free template, but some of you might want a little bit more help. You might want to double check your numbers. You might want to know how to adapt the CSP for your specific situation. If that's you and you want extra help, you can join my money coaching program. It's designed to help you break free from the cycle of debt, stay accountable, stay in control of your money, and yes, I promise you will still be able to spend on the things you love. Sign up for the program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. I think auto and Gabby are finally starting to see the issues here, and that maybe they themselves are the reason for this debt. Now, to really understand why they behave the way they do, we have to go back to where they first learned their original money messages. Gabby, what do you remember about money when you were growing up? What did your family say about it? That's quite a sign. I remember being told we don't have it, but then there were also times that we could go somewhere, we could go to a store, and I would get any and everything I asked for. Okay. What kind of store are we talking about? Normally clothing store, or even if we went to Walmart at the time, and I wanted a toy or something like that, I'd get it. But there were other money messages as well. I was in college. This is an example. I was in college. My mom had remarried, and her and her husband was not the best relationship. There was a lot of secrecy around money. Once I was visiting from college, and we're driving in the car, and I think I asked them, "Hey, could I have 100 bucks?" Just like Kate asking her parents for extra money. And my step-debt turned to me. He was like, "Well, what are you doing with the $200 your mom gives you every month?" And I was like, "What $200?" And he was like, "Your mom sent you $200 every single month." I said, "No, she doesn't." And then my mom gets mad at me, because I was honest and I was genuinely confused about what money, what is this? I worked three jobs. I'm a full-time student. I would love an extra $200 a month. But she had been lying to him and saying that she had been sending me money. I don't know what she did with the money. There were also times that they would get into an argument. And I would go with her, because she would not want to go alone. And depending on who got to the bank account first, they would call all the checking and all the savings out. - What would they do with it? - Keep it put into a personal account that they'd get in an argument, the way in which they would get a one-up on one another is whoever could get to the money first. - Wow, is money a weapon? - I feel like it was used as one when I was younger. Absolutely. - Yeah, I mean, that's a really chaotic way to grow up with money. It's a lot of mixed messages, like back from when you're a little kid, we don't have money. Suddenly you can go by whatever you want at Walmart or the clothing store. I'm willing to bet your family did not educate you as to the difference. Why are you able to buy it today versus why can we not afford these things another day, right? - Mm-hmm. - Did they tell you any of that stuff? - No. - No. - I had to beg my mom to even do my FAFSA 'cause she didn't want to give her social security number 'cause she felt like someone was gonna steal her identity. This really drives me crazy. It really drives me crazy. I have to tell you on a personal level, there are kids who want to do well. They want to go to college, they want financial aid. And it's confusing to fill out a FAFSA and figure out all the (beep) when you're like 16, 17 years old. And then to have parents who should presumably be the ones helping to lead the way, helping to guide their kids, and they're actually a- roadblock, it's very infuriating. I will say the story you told me about using money as a weapon about who can rush to the bank first and withdraw that. That is a very vivid, like I can see like fire when I think about that. But Gabby, I wonder if you're not using money as a weapon against your future self. I mean, think about it. If I told you, Gabby, I want you to figure out a way to as quickly and efficiently as possible destroy your own financial future. How would you do it? And can you own the path that I'm on? Yeah, you would rack up a ton of debt on discretionary stuff. You would not pay attention to the critical levers in your finances. You would actually spend time focusing on stuff that is meaningless. You wouldn't talk about money with your partner and you would spend on a bunch of stuff and then rationalize it for later. Is that not what we have today? That's exactly what we have today. That's using money as a weapon, but not against auto. Against myself. Against both of your futures. I don't think you two should be the enemy of yourselves. Why not be your greatest friend? You know, I love myself. I love my future self even more. I'm gonna put some money aside for that person so that their life can be easier. That's the way I might think about it. Auto, what about you? What do you remember your family talking about when it came to money as you were a kid? Save, save, save, save, save, save more. Never get into debt. Pay things in cash. My parents never had any debt except a condo. Before we took out the Huwak was at $95,000. Where'd you grow up? I grew up here. Came here as a refugee when I was seven. You came here as a refugee when you were seven. How did that inform your relationship with money or your family's relationship? We had all the essentials, I will say. My dad was a lot more cerebral than my mom. I might think that's because of his mom. My mom was always, well, if we can pay for it in cash, that's fine, you can have it. My mom, especially about food, never said no. If she was, like even if it was fast food or whenever she would never say no. Why? So after the war, we lived in a refugee camp for a little bit. And I didn't know these stories until later 'cause I never felt like we didn't have anything. My mom always made it happen for us. My dad was like a commander in the army, so he had an income. But there's been times where we didn't have a lot to eat. And I didn't know those things because I was a kid, but growing up, like when I've asked her, like, hey, like, tell me about this time in my life, like what happened she would tell me. So now I know that like there's been times where we didn't. We had food, but it wasn't like a lot. So my parents, because of that reason, they were always frugal. So your parents, both still live? Yeah, they moved back three or four years ago to Bosnia, since they built the house. - Wow. - Well, they built the house in 2004. - What messages do you think you learned from your family about money that you have brought into this relationship with Gabby? - Well, I did everything to complete an objective of my parents. - Yeah, why is that? - I think I remember this one specific moment. I was like eight or nine, and I really wanted something in the store. It wasn't even expensive. It just wanted something. And my dad would look, well, how much is it? How much is it? How much is it? And I'm like, it doesn't really matter. I just want it. Like, can I just have this one thing? And it'd be like, how much is it? We don't need it. It's too expensive. And it would be like, not anything that I would consider expensive, or my mom would consider expensive, but my dad, like I said, he was the more frugal one. And I think I understand his point of view in terms of like, they always had, 'cause they never learned to speak English. So they always had to work very difficult jobs for very low money. And so they couldn't afford big, frivolous things. I mean, they just couldn't, their motivation and goal is to go back home. And so they spent their money on building a new house. And so my thing now, it's like, oh, if I wanted, I'm going to get it because I've been told no so many times. And I don't want to tell myself no. I've been told no so many times. I don't want to tell myself no. If I can't afford it, I'll just work more. And I want to go home. I don't want to be here. It doesn't feel safe. I want to have enough money to go back home. Doesn't it all sound very familiar? - Yeah. - But if you become the person who cannot spend money on things, like if I had a magic wand and I said, auto, you cannot go on vacation and eat out anymore. Who would you become? - Probably my parents. Your dad, the one who worked hard, who always said how much is the cost, who wanted to go back. The difference between you and your dad, there's many, but one of them is you earn a lot more money, like a lot. But you're not effectively using it in the way that they did. I don't know what they made, but I'm sure it was not nearly as much as you and yet they had enough to get a condo and move back and build a house. That's pretty impressive, right? - Yeah. - I just want to jump in quickly because hearing auto's experience as a Bosnian refugee totally changes my perspective on their situation. You probably don't know this, but my dad was a refugee as well. In 1947, there was something called partition. An India and Pakistan were separated by basically some guy sitting in a conference room. Over night, tens of millions of people were displaced. There were people who had been living in houses for generations and suddenly neighbors turned against neighbors and people fled. My dad himself had to flee in the back of a truck. He had to disguise himself as a girl so he would not be killed. And my grandfather stayed as a political prisoner in Pakistan until he finally rejoined his family in India. I hope that you knowing a little bit about my family history informs how I show up when I talk about money and politics and luck. Do you understand that by pure virtue of luck, I ended up being born in America. And if I was not born in America and I was not born to two educated parents, it's probably very likely. You would not be watching this or listening to this right now. That is why it is so important for me when I talk about money to incorporate all the different elements, not just a freaking budget. In this case, safety is something that you and I take for granted, but it can vanish overnight. I know that from my own family history, auto knows it as well. He grew up learning the world outside was not safe. Gabby actually told my producer, she's a survivor of Hurricane Katrina. She and her family had to evacuate New Orleans. So all of this helps me to understand why they behave the way they do with money. I want you to understand that because there's so many people in the comments of this podcast who just point at people and say, stop doing that so stupid. How could you do that? I'm trying to show you how complex human nature really is. It's easy for you to point at someone and just say, that's dumb, why don't you stop doing that? But if you gave me 10 minutes with your own money or fitness or parenting or the way you live, hell, show me your bathroom. And it would be very easy to point the finger right back. I don't want that. I actually want us to go deeper and to try to understand why we do the things the way we do. With Gabby, she's probably looking for control. Auto is probably trying to find a place where he can finally feel safe. It doesn't justify behavior, but it does help us understand it. Let's keep going. Do you have confidence that you can pay off your debt? Yes. Auto? Yeah. Okay. Why? That'll occur a lot. We just paid 6,500 of credit card day in the last two weeks. Okay. Let me ask you another way. Do you have confidence that you can pay off your debt and keep it paid off? I personally don't have the confidence right this moment, but I'm hoping that we get there. Gabby? I do. I feel like we know what we want, but we need to envision the future that we'll get us there or else we're going to keep going into the same or keep doing the same thing. So envision it. Let's hear it. I want to get out of debt and I want to stay out of debt. We both have careers that afford us a pretty nice income. And instead of having all of our disposal or extra income go toward debt payment, I would like a mix of that. I would like to mix and put some in savings because we definitely need savings because the house is a little bit on fire right now. I want some to go toward investments for our future and then I want to be able to spend right now and continue to go on a vacation once a year. Instead of all that extra money going towards debt. What's different about that than what you're doing right now? The motivation, which is? So my motivation is to get out of the country. Like this is my personal vision of how, why I want to get to that. Like why I want to fix this issue to get to that. Okay. I understand the motivation is different. Now I'm talking about the vision of specifically how you get there. So Gabby said, I don't want to only pay off money towards the debt. I want to have some to be able to take a vacation once a year and to be able to save some. Like how is that different than what you're doing right now? I mean, it's not. It's just the motivation is different to do it. Gabby? This time around, we don't have anything to save us. And what I mean by that is before we had the life insurance plan or we did a debt consolidation loan, or another debt consolidation loan, or a HELOC, or borrowing money from family. This is the first time that we are consistently paying the debt off. We're doing it. I'm not trying to take out more debt in order to pay this lump sum to like now have money on the credit card so that we can pay off. And it feels different this time. It feels like we are doing this. We are paying it off. I've had to. times of my life where I had to make a big change big and if someone had asked me do you have the confidence that you could make this change I would have said yes but if they could see through me like Superman you know or they could see me telling the truth I think deep down in a deep place that even I wouldn't have been able to admit I didn't have the confidence and if someone had pointedly asked me why do you have the confidence I would have said blah blah blah I can make a change blah blah blah but I wish they had simply said I'm confused how you have the confidence to make this change because you've never been successful at it in your life and it really would have shaken me out of it and it would have made me ask myself why do I have this confidence not unless you had changed something about what you were doing what do you think it would take I think it's hard because my income is so like not flexible but in a sense it's flexible well there's several solutions to having a irregular income one we can pick a conservative number as you did with the CSP and then we can make a rule for what to do with any unexpected income that's one way to do it yeah another way to do it is you just become more consistent you literally say this is how much I'm gonna work and I'm not gonna deviate from it because I know from calculations that if I work this many hours we are going to be in an okay financial situation okay there's lots of ways to do it sounds great okay that's one what else do you think needs to happen I need to change on how I think about my relationship with money I think what he may be trying to get you to see is what behaviors are you gonna change yes so instead of rarely denying ourselves anything we're gonna need to change that we're gonna have to start denying ourselves quite a bit together it's a team so that we can reach the goal but to deny ourselves we really need to remember and have a solid foundational why we're doing what we're doing because I feel like for a really long time we thought we knew we were telling ourselves why and that we felt confident in what we were doing but I think we're just kind of telling ourselves a story and I feel like we're both realizing that now what was the story you were telling yourselves Otto that we have changed that we have paid on this day we're not gonna get into debt again and then we got into debt again and what was the reality that we got into debt again and how did you get into debt by not denying ourselves yeah so I'm gonna I'm gonna offer a little bit of a different way to look at this because the two of you told me that you never say no if we start spending 20 minutes talking about denying yourselves you guys are gonna nod your head politely and then we're gonna end this call and you're gonna be like that guy okay it is very difficult to go from eating Chick-fil-A this morning to being like okay now we're gonna deny ourselves everything you know why because people don't want to deny themselves so we have to think of it a different way and then we have to build a plan when I decide that I am 10 minutes from home and I'm gonna drive home instead of stopping to eat whatever type of food I am not denying myself I am choosing to eat amazing food that I have at home in the fridge when I don't go on a vacation I'm not denying myself from that vacation I'm actually choosing to have an even better and more amazing vacation next year the way that you will sustain your changes is to give yourself a bigger more powerful vision that you are working towards denial lasts about a week but a powerful vision can last a lifetime shall we take a look at the numbers again and come up with a real plan yes please our goal is to get our numbers in the conscious spending plan down to a more rational goal-focused set of numbers okay what would you say is the primary financial goal in your relationship right now I would say a combination of saving emergency fund and debt payoff okay auto what about you okay sick look your fixed costs are high I want to highlight a couple of things your mortgage is quite low one thousand three hundred fifty five dollars is great I have no comments about that stay there don't move for a long time your car payment total with gas and everything is six fifty great no comments on that your groceries are a thousand is that accurate I don't think it is oh oh it's got to be higher I think it might be higher I think realistically that number is maybe like twelve hundred all right we're at eighty five percent fixed cost phone is two seventy seven can we cut that yes so we've actually talked about switching over to mobile okay great what is that going to be like let's call it a hundred bucks all right we're down to eighty three percent childcare is one thousand seven hundred sixty dollars per month yes all right and that's that's the going rate it's not gonna change for the foreseeable future right no all right we'll leave it there you're saving a thousand dollars a month for the emergency fund okay fine guilt free spending it's time to actually create a real number as for what you are allowed to spend on for guilt free spending so you spend eight hundred fifty dollars a month right now which is eight percent if you just blank slate what do you think is worth spending money on every single month for non-essential spending top I can't really think anything I the one thing that I think of would be paying a babysitter for a date and I once a month great how much about one forty one forty all right fine what else for me with working so much I would want a self-care momentous works what is it a massage how much one seventy one seventy is that per month per month yeah great what else you guys are going cold turkey on eating out you're never eating out again the last thing that touch your lips was chicken nuggets is that how it's going to be I would say that a part of me wants to just make our date night we are one time eating out and instead of like going for fast food let's have this date night be a nice dinner great how much is it cost I would say one fifty for dinner is more than enough it's way too much you all cannot afford that okay one fifty what we just have one thousand down a dinner where'd you go glib on it's just so Thailand Thai place that we like to go to wait what do you get for one seventy at a Thai restaurant we're about to get judge wait hold on hold on you think you're gonna get judge more for eating at a Thai restaurant than Chick-fil-A you're on the wrong show tell me what you got at this Thai restaurant I'm into it a pork skewers chicken wings I got patai she got this fried rice drink without two mock tails we got a lot of appetizers and I'm a course in two mock tails so can I ask you all this is a very important moment you told me you want to be debt-free auto you told me that for safety reasons you want to be able to move out of here take that all that stuff and tell me how can you reconcile that with eating out at that Thai restaurant for roughly a hundred and seventy dollars truthfully it's because it's like a reward I've been working so much we don't really get a lot of time to spend with each other we could have this time to spend with each other and went watch watch what I'm doing with my hand I'm a banana and I'm unpeeling that layer from myself pouring that away that story about we are rewarding ourselves with a hundred and seventy dollars is just a story what are some other ways to reward yourself that's not spending money I don't know you tell me I don't have one that's how I always rewarded myself I treat treat myself okay no money you're gonna reward yourself what are you gonna do I don't I don't have anything how do other people do it I don't think about it don't let yourself off that easy how do other people who are not gonna spend money but still want to enjoy life what do they do I really don't know I die I don't I I'm surrounded by people that do that well that's the kind of attitude you need to have not I'm of course exaggerating I mean nothing against them but they are not you and the reason that you are doing that you simply have absorbed the social norms of them I need you to find other people and other norms to adopt because you can't do that with the debt you've put yourself into so I need you to get creative with me surely you can think about what somebody in America does to enjoy themselves without spending money I don't play a sport that they like great I like shooting hoops love it that's one what else go for a walk the weather is getting nice out we used to love going on picnics love it yeah what else bought this nine hundred dollar bike when I thought I was gonna do a triathlon and I have been redness since can we sell that thing oh I was I was gonna say I was gonna I'd rather have the money go for a walk all right how much would you get for that I'm out the amount I bought it for what else you guys have in your garage et cetera that can be sold we actually went through a selling spree already and got rid of and sold a lot including old baby clothes yeah all right what did you do with the money put it in our savings account, I'm pretty sure. - The $1,000? - Yeah, we were like a lot of people that we were using our savings account as a checking account for a really long time. - Don't do that. - I know. - All right, sell the bike, put the $900 towards the debt, it'll do good for you. Auto, you and Gabby both need to come up with some specific ideas of what you're going to do to reward yourself. The way that you are living right now, your relationship with money is I grind myself into almost dust at work, and then in order to rejuvenate, I need to spend a ton of money. Can't do it. Gonna have to find a different way. - We've always done that. And we literally tell each other like, okay, well, I just worked a lot. All right, Gabby, we're gonna go out for dinner. - Yeah, that's the old, peel the (beep) it's gone. You can't do that anymore. So you will have to find a new way to relate, to work and to money. If it were me, what I would say is, hey, Gabby, you and I need to come up with a vision of what we are going to do with our work and with our money. My vision is, I wanna be able to pay off the debt and be able to move within seven years. I don't know, we gotta run the numbers. And that, in order to do that, that means I'm gonna have to work a lot more. In order to work a lot more, here's what I need. I need to have one massage per month 'cause this is really hard on my body. I would love to go out for a date night once a month, and I'd like to have a modest dinner, but something that we can enjoy together on that day. But other than that, we need to plan our meals because I need to be able to take food to work. I can't be eating out at work anymore. Gabby might say, I love that. And I want us to meal prep together. I can do it on this date. You can do it on this date. Let's coordinate our schedules. Auto, since you can earn a lot of money with the overtime stuff, let me figure out what I can do to support as well. And let's also talk about how we can spend time with our daughter in the time we have. It's gonna be very difficult for us for the next two years, but if our goal is to get this debt paid off, we're gonna have to change everything. - We think. - About our relationship with money. What do you think? - Let's go. - Yeah. - How much you wanna spend on your dinners out for date night? - Let's do 60. - So right there, that's $370. What about vacations? - We are not going on any vacations until our debt is paid off. - Love it, fantastic. That's what I'm talking about. Okay, if you had to guess how long it will take you to pay off your credit card debt, how long would you guess? - Maybe eight months. - Okay. Auto, what do you say? - About eight months, yeah. - With the way where you start to pay off this debt. - So let's keep in mind that we're specifically talking about the credit card debt, which is roughly $44,000. But in addition to that, you have, you know, 91,000 plus 26,000 plus 23,000 plus 17,000 plus 12,000 plus 5,000 plus 166,000, that's all separate. - All the debt. - I don't expect you to pay that off in a matter of months. Okay, but the credit card debt is just overwhelming. Your current strategy for your credit card debt will take you 17 months to pay it off. In those 17 months, you will pay almost $10,000 in interest alone. But it took you a long time to accumulate it. You've had some bad financial habits, bad financial mindsets, and the two of you have not been holding each other accountable. You've actually been doing the opposite. So it's gonna take some time. I do have some suggestions though, because if you increase your payments by $1,500 per month, that cuts the payment down from 17 months to 11 months. If you were to increase it by 2,500, that cuts the payments from 17 months initially to nine months. So you have options. - My instant thought is, I wanna pay it off in the nine months. - You wanna get super aggressive? - Yes. - Let me just check on this, auto, if you worked, how much can you contribute extra auto on top of your $6,600 a month net income? - Well, given that my last pay check was almost 11,000, and probably out another 5,000 to that one, just being conservative. - Damn, that's what I'm talking about. All right, so let's say you make an extra $5,000 a month. Is that right, auto? So you're taking home 11k? - That's being conservative. So in December last year, I made 24,000 in that month. - Can you work that hard every month? - For a while, yeah. - Like for like a year? - I mean, I can work five days a week for the rest of my life if I needed to. - How much does that mean you take home every month? - 15,000. - Yeah, all right, I'm putting the number in. This is what I'm talking about. Am I the only one getting pumped right now? - No. - All right, how much did you say? 11, what's the number? - 15,000. - $15,000, holy (beep) Oh my God, what the (beep) the fixed cost just dropped down to 47%. I'm sorry, I'm gonna get roasted so (beep) hard on this episode. I am sorry you guys. I never met anybody who's just like, hold on. I think I'll take home $15,000 for the next year every single month. It's (beep) great. I know there's a cost to this auto, not just financial, but I'm here to help with the finances. - Yeah. - The fact that you can do that, we just solved a lot of problems. - Yeah. - What the (beep) is going on? - Thank you, babe. - I'm kinda just like, why don't you do this before? That's what everyone's wondering. Okay, before you roast me in the comments for this magic income solution, I really did not know about this. I had no idea. And usually when I tell someone to make more money, it takes months, sometimes over a year, to ask for a raise, start a side hustle, build a new skill. Nobody just shrugs and says, okay, yeah, no problem. I'll make an extra $5,000 this week. It's like they found freaking $60,000 between the cushions of their couch. Now, I have only encountered a few people that can do this in my 200 plus podcast episode. So I want to acknowledge, this is pretty rare, it's very unexpected. But here's the thing. Auto has had the power to earn extra money every single month, and yet they are still in debt. Still living this way, do you see the point? You could have an unlimited money faucet, and if you have an unhealthy relationship with money, you'll probably be in a bad financial situation, regardless of how much you earn. Five shifts a week, tons of extra money, debt will be paid off. You now have at-holy (beep) I can't believe these numbers blowing my mind. Just to show you, when you add the $15,000 here to the net pay for auto, you can see that your fixed cost drop, okay? And you're taking home $19,000 per month. That is (beep) awesome. Guys, nobody who's taking home $19,000 a month should have credit card debt. In no universe is that allowed. This is the stuff that matters, right? It's not about tracking these minute details. It's this strategy. You take the $9,000, you go, all right, well look, we already know how much we need. We need per month, $370, holy (beep) let's round up to 500 just in case, okay? But of all the rest of this, what are we gonna do with this money? Well, we're gonna add a ton to the debt. Yeah, pay that (beep) off aggressively, all right? But we're also going to add a lot to our savings because we are not gonna put our freaking daughter at risk by not being prepared in case one of us gets sick or in an accident or something. So we're gonna go over to our long-term emergency fund instead of $1,000 a month. You know, we could put like $3,000 a month. We could do that so easily. You could even put more. But the point is, you choose how you wanna allocate. And just out of curiosity, I'm curious. If you have roughly $9,000 per month, how would you split that payment? A $6,000 toward debt and $3,000 toward savings. Great, hell, if you get sick, you're in trouble. We cannot let that happen. We need to build a backup plan. Guys, this is part of what I'm talking about, changing your mindset. We cannot only count on things always going perfectly. We need to have a backup plan for when, not if, but when things go bad. Yeah. All right, if you put $6,000 a month towards the debt, meaning you add $6,000 out of the $9,000, you could pay this credit card debt off in four months. I believe it. I mean, it's insane. And then you know what you could do is you could simply take that all that money and you rolled over to the next day. Guys, you could be debt-free so fast with your income. It's actually crazy, but you could do it. You could live an incredible life. Gabby, how do you feel hearing that? When he has to work a lot, I struggle because it's really hard to follow parenting sometimes. I also work full-time. So picking up our daughter, coming home, spending quality time with her, doing dinner, doing bad, I've been doing bad time. Night after night after night, I've not having your partner. It's hard. And it's not just hard 'cause of the solo part. I love my husband so much. He is truly one of my best friends. So it's also hard not to get that quality time together, consciously, I understand that like him working is putting us closer to our goals. But emotionally, it's still very difficult. So there's sacrifices on both sides. He's sacrificing time away to work. My sacrifice is solo parenting and being home alone with our daughter. But there are both sacrifices. - I wanna acknowledge we've talked a lot about auto and your role with work in particular because you have this unique opportunity. opportunity to make a huge amount of income, which in your situation is such a gift and so critical. Okay, such a privilege. - Yeah, that doesn't mean that it's not hard for both you to be parents and Gabby, you're working full time as a nurse as well. We cannot ignore that. So I want to take a second to acknowledge that. My take on this from a financial perspective is you both have made a series of decisions that have gotten you to this place. And it's going to be hard. It can be hard for a long time like the rest of your life. And then your daughter can pick up the torch and it can be hard for her. Or you can both create a powerful vision where each of your roles is a partner because you cannot do this alone. And that's okay. There's no way around it. Both of you have examples from your family where things were hard. You both have a massive light at the end of the tunnel. So don't be afraid of things being hard. - Thank you so much. I just wanted to be on record, Gabby. Thank you so much for doing our finances for the last and for our relationship. I'm gonna take responsibility for a lot of it as well. So thank you for doing that for us for our family. - Thank you for acknowledging that, I appreciate it. - Thank you both. This was such a treat to be able to speak to you today. There's a phrase we hear in the self-development world. Choose your hard. Like things that are worthwhile are hard. Training for a triathlon is hard. Becoming a doctor is hard. Building a successful business is hard. But living with $50,000 of debt is also hard. No matter which path, auto and Gabby choose, it's gonna be hard. But they will choose. And remember, by not making a choice, you are also choosing. If they want to move to Europe, if they wanna build the life they dream of, if they wanna stay debt-free, they have to make a bold choice. And it's important to note that they can't just depend on willpower because they've tried that before and failed. They need real systems and they need a shared vision. If you are listening to this and you and perhaps your partner have decided to make a massive change, the first question you've gotta ask yourself is, what's different this time? If your answer is just we're gonna try harder, you're probably gonna fail. If the answer is, I need to do better. That's just words. Look at my hands, that's just words. What you really need is a total recalibration of your relationship with money. That means systems, it means a powerful vision. It probably means you need to change the way that you spend money down to what credit card is in your wallet. Now I teach all of this in my money coaching program. I would love to encourage you to join iwt.com/moneycoaching. A huge thank you to auto and Gabby for speaking with me and being so open today. Now let's check out their follow ups. - I think the biggest takeaway for me was, kind of how unserious we really were about giving it to our financial goals. Well we just thought, oh yeah, we're doing it like we're paying off debt but we're not really cause we just get back into debt. So just having a conversation with an outsider looking in, it just showed us how unserious we were. One of the things that Rumi mentioned was actually selling my bike, but I'm actually unfortunately not gonna do that for me, I'm sorry, I'm actually gonna keep the bike so that I can write it as part of my clinical free activity that I do for myself as part of self-care as well. That's like probably the biggest change I'm gonna do immediately is just sprained free or nearly free things to do to kind of self-care or just use up time as a hobby. - Something I've been thinking about, especially as I'm driving to work, is during the conversation he asked us, he gave us a couple of examples and asked auto and I, are these red flags? And to both auto and I, no, they weren't red flags. And I've been thinking about that, like why were they not red flags? Like why are auto and I so aligned in terms of like, just spending and somewhat living in the moment and not denying ourselves? And one of the reasons why I think is that something that we somewhat have in common is that we both went through a different but similar life experience. So auto was living in a genocide, ended up having to go to a refugee camp but then eventually came to the US. And I am a Hurricane Katrina survivor. When I was in middle school, I lived in all in Louisiana and we stayed during Hurricane Katrina and we were evacuated to Arizona. So similar situations that we essentially left with the clothes on our back and that is all. And ended up in this state. Interesting that we're together, like having had those experiences, maybe not interesting at all, maybe. That's why we connect so much. But I also think that that's a part of the reason why we had that mentality with spending money of we need to just live in the moment because when our lives gonna be over, like we both went through things that most people can't even dare to dream of. And I think that's why. So it's been another month since we met with him and it was transformative for us as a couple, us individually and for our future. So we have quite a few updates. - We paid a total of five credit cards since right before meeting with for me and right after. - With those five credit cards, so that was about $9,900. And we are on track to pay off four more credit cards along with auto's car loan. Our goal is by the end of the year. But if that doesn't happen, it'll definitely be paid off by March, 2026. Next is our emergency fund. So when we talked to Rene, we talked about saving $3,000 per month. So within that month, we were able to save $3,000 and it is our goal to continue with that. - We also started a sinking fund. So we have about $700 in there. And that's to cover things like carmean ends. - The next thing we did was separated our accounts. So we had a bad habit of pulling from our emergency fund like it was a checking account. So we now have Charles Schwab as our spending account so that it's completely separate from our discover which we use for savings as well as for our bills. - And then we decided we're gonna allocate $200 for self-care each month. So we're gonna just do massages each month or if we choose something else, but it'll be about $200 for that. - And the next thing has been weekly meetings, which has been really nice because auto has been bringing them up. Normally to me like, hey, we should be in talk but everybody gets been hit and so that's been really exciting. - Yeah, I'm just trying to take away some of the burden off Gabby's shoulders and with that. So we're pretty excited. - Bye. - If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply or you can become a member of my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In money coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call and I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out money coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching.