We're going camping! Broncos, Chiefs, Packers and Bears

Welcome to the athletic football show, I'm Robert Mays, our fifth and final beat writer and notebook from sort of training camp coming to you guys today. I want to talk to a couple of beat writers where I didn't get a chance to travel to those places just because I think there's so much entry around those teams. We started with Nick Cosmider, our Broncos writer to caught up with Nick about Broncos team that obviously has Super Bowl aspirations. Shadow with Jesse Newell, our chief's writer about a pivotal season in Kansas City, one that feels a little bit different coming into the year than really any year of the Andy Reed 10 year. And then our final two training camp stops, Shadow with Matt Schneidman up in Lambo, up in Green Bay at Lambo field about the packer season and then finish things off with one of our Bears writers Kevin Fishbane about the outlook for this 2026 Bears team. Let's get to all of those conversations right now. Joining us now, it is our Broncos writer here at the athletic Nick Cosmider. It's really pretty sure you're doing this. They're good to see you. Good to see you too, man. I'm happy to be here. One of the camps I wish I could have gone to if I had the time and it wasn't completely isolated from every other NFL city and undrivable to anything else would have been the Broncos. Obviously, this is a team that has Super Bowl aspirations justifiably. So we're recording this on the same day. We did the table, the contender table on the athletic football show, the Broncos by the time you listened to this, you'll have already heard that, are at the table justifiably so. I think this is a team that, they're Super Bowl odds are lower than I thought I think they should be. I think overall they're just firmly a contending team. What I want to ask you is, what are the reasons they wouldn't be as good of a team as they were last year? Like, you guys that cover the team day-to-day, you see the cracks potentially. You see the weaknesses. You see the positional things that maybe we're not considering because from the outside, it just feels like team that was on the doorstep of the Super Bowl last year as Jail and Waddle wheels up, let's go. Why shouldn't that be the way that people are thinking about this team? Well, I think that largely is the right way to think about it. The one thing that you can really look closely at with this team is obviously the record last year. I'm sure you guys have talked about this. I've heard you guys talk about this 11 and 2 in the regular season in one score games. Sean Payton has said since February, listen, we know that we're not going to be able to count on that kind of, you know, winning percentage in those close games. The idea is to not play in as many of them, but if they do kind of find themselves, particularly with the schedule that they have early in the season in a lot of those games. Once again, I think you're just due to see some of the variance, but does that knock them down from 14 wins to like nine? I don't see that being the case. Inside linebacker, they brought back Alex Nicholton and Justin Sternaud to guys who, well, not on anybody's list of like kind of the most athletic standout linebackers in the league, certainly no Vance Joseph's defense very well. Behind them though, they have virtually no experience. You know, they have a couple of rookies like Red Murdoch is in there. Karine Reed is a second year player, former undrafted guy. So they're not really experienced there. But every time you try to look at this roster and point to a few things, Robert, it just, it feels like you're nitpicking because of the fact that to your point, you look out on this field. And every day, and I was just looking at the defense yesterday and you're like, man, this secondary, especially the way Riley Moss is playing in this camp, I just really don't know how you attack this team defensively. And so for me, that's where it starts. >> Hey, maybe they're a little bit less deep along the defensive line without John Franklin Myers. But again, I think that's stuff you're nitpicking. The fact that the first thing you mentioned about what might be a relative weakness of this team is linebacker depth. And half the teams we're talking about the lead don't have to starting linebackers period. I think it just speaks to overall the quality of roster here and they didn't do much this off season, right? This is a team that really just added Jalen Waddle, like that, and had a pretty poultry draft class in part because they didn't have a first round pick. But I think part of the reason that that's okay and you can kind of gloss over it is the roster was good enough that by just adding Jalen Waddle, you've made a championship caliber roster. I think that's kind of where I land with this. Yeah, and they brought, yeah, it was funny because they had a lot of free agents. And so a lot of people kind of thought whether it was Alex Engleton and Justin Sternad, Adam Troutman, the tight end, had the opportunity to maybe in the minds of some fans here thought they should upgrade at a couple of those types of positions. But they really are just leaning into the continuity thing. This is for Vance Joseph, it's his fourth year as a defensive corner, but really third year with most of the guys on this defense. And they just really have this second hand that they know. You mentioned John Franklin Myers, so that was my concern kind of going into this camp as well. A guy that had 14 and a half sacks combined the past two years who really helped Zach Allen turn into an all pro. That defensive line has been like maybe the strongest unit that they've had in camp. Malcolm Roach, who started actually play more than Franklin Myers in the second half of the last season. He's had a phenomenal camp and you're going to hear this name NAU was a reek in this year. And I think it's going to play a lot for them. Former fourth round pick out of Iowa State got suspended for your early years career for gambling. He's now back and he's been just really excellent after kind of finishing the season strong. So even places where they did kind of maybe lose something, they just really kind of loaded up with the depth from these last few draft classes. Where are we at with the Jonathan Cooper situation? Like is the thought that he is going to get suspended? I'm sure that you've been following that closely. What's the latest that you have about that? It's just for context for people recording this on August 20th. And so it's going to be a little bit of a gap between when we record it, when it's released. There's any massive changes. We'll talk about it in the intro, but just keep that in mind as you're listening to this conversation that it's going to be about a week since we had it when you guys are going to be hearing this. Yeah. Jonathan Cooper is due to have an arraignment in his case on August 31st, obviously that's kind of right after cut downs. But he obviously was arrested twice in June, facing some pretty serious charges. One of which was a second degree felony assault charge due to an incident with his then girlfriend was arrested a second time for allegedly violating a protective order. The Broncos excused him from mini camp in the light of that. But when training camp began again, he's been out there and the two things can sort of be true. He's dealing with this situation, he's also been very good in training camps. So I think that the Broncos are, the champagne set at the very start camp, they're sort of letting the league's process guide the way. We do know that the league is within its investigation right now of this incident. And so I think the Broncos are certainly preparing for the possibility that he could be suspended. And you look at the baseline suspension that would probably be six games and no two incidents are obviously the same, but that would probably be the expectation is that's where it would start. And that, of course, falls in line with the hardest part of your schedule when you're talking about the chiefs, the Jaguars, the Rams, 49ers, Chargers, Seahawks in that six game stretch. So that's something that they've been preparing for themselves for, but they have been standing with Cooper. He's been in camp. So they're kind of just letting the leagues investigation lead their actions with Cooper. My assumption would be if he does miss those six games, they'll just lean on Jonah Ellis more than they would have previously, is that likely what's going to happen if Cooper does miss time? Yeah. And even if he doesn't, Vance Joseph brought this up the other day, he's like, we, I looked at the end of the season last year. And one of the things I kind of kicked myself for is we didn't play Jonah Ellis enough. And there was even talk early in this off season about moving him to inside linebacker. They kind of went away from that just kind of digging in deeper and saying he's too good on the edge to play full time but inside linebacker. But I do think they'll create some, some packages for him where he's playing inside just to get him on the field more. He's been really excellent camp, he's, he's fully healthy, but then another name to watch is Q Robinson. He was their fourth round pick out of Alabama last year. He had a sack of Drake May in the AFC championship game. So as a second year player, this was a guy that had to play behind Will Turner. I'm sorry, Will Anderson and Dallas Turner had Alabama. So it hasn't necessarily gotten that opportunity and then behind Nick Benito and Jonathan Cooper last year. He's had a fantastic camp and they're really high on, on him being able to be an impact player for them in that outside linebacker rotation this year. And he sort of lures that you see them trying to add to the defense this year, whether it's schematic, whether it's personal usage, because when you have so much continuity, I think that's always my question is, what are you going to tweak to kind of stay a step ahead? How is the defense going to feel? Maybe a little bit harder to pin down and maybe feel a little bit different. Even units that carry over a ton of their personnel from season to season, you need to iterate to make sure you're staying at that level. And so I'm just curious based on either what you've seen or what they've said. What do you think those couple levers or tweaks might be for this version of the Broncos defense? Yeah. Well, this team has so much continuity. They did make some changes on the coaching staff. Jim Leonard, who was their passing in coordinator, went to Buffalo to become the DC for the bills. The Broncos brought in Rob Livingston, who was a long time defensive backs coach in Cincinnati and spent the last two years up the road in Boulder as a defensive coordinator for Deon Sanders at CU. Vance Joseph said the other day, like Livingston has brought in a lot of new ideas. It's our same defense, but he's kind of put a twist on it that's helped us in the secondary. And he mentioned Livingston being really good for Riley Moss. Like kind of, Riley Moss, if you look at it last year, he faced more targets than any corner in the league, had the penalty issues, but otherwise really played well. He's been even better. I think they attribute a lot of that, Vance Joseph said to Livingston's influence. The thing I'm curious about to your point about the different kind of things that they can do, is how do they use Jade Baron? It's such an interesting thing with him. - Yeah, here's the guy who was a first-round pick, number 20th overall pick in the draft last year. And I think a lot of people assume, "Hey, there's your nickel." Juquat McMillan was going into the final year of his deal at the time, had kind of had a so-so 2024 season. You say, "You draft this guy in the first round, he's gonna be your nickel." Well, McMillan had a great training camp, won that job kind of easily, and then obviously had a fantastic year as Denver's nickel last year, capped with the kind of the all-time interception in the playoff winning against the bills. So Baron kind of just played dime last year. They found some opportunities when Pastor Tan went down, for example, for three games to have him play outside. He even experimented a little bit at safety. They're playing him all over the field defensively, but he doesn't have a true starting spot going into year two as a former first-round pick. And again, that's not knock-on Baron. I think he's clearly made strides in the second camp. He had the pick six in the preseason opener. He's been actually, I think, really good. It's just a matter of like there's not a spot for this guy. And with Jay Mac and Riley Moss both going into contract years, it's really interesting to me how that's gonna pan out and what you're gonna do with Baron. I think using him, finding different ways to kind of have him be your chess piece, that to me is the big wrinkle on that defense that I'm just curious to see what Vance Joseph and what Robert Livingston do with him. - Let's keep going with wrinkles. The play collar wrinkles to me, maybe the most interesting one with this entire team. Let's start with the dynamics of this. - As you've maybe learned more about it or sat with it, what is your understanding for why this even happened? 'Cause I don't think you and I have talked since they announced that this was going to happen way back in the winter. - Yeah, I think we were like ran into each other like at the combine, like leaving there. - That's right, yeah. - It was like, you mentioned Senator, you and I were just like standing outside and being like, what is this all about? - Yeah, I mean, it was funny 'cause it's one of those things that there were murmurs of it, right? John Payton, fire Joe Lombardi, his longtime offensive coordinator and then quickly promoted Davis Webb into that role. And right away, there was this thought of like, hey, this was a guy that got play calling OC interviews. He got head coaching interviews. Like, there's no way that he's taking this job without being able to call plays, right? But the Broncos didn't announce it at the time. And we talked to former Saints players, people had been around Payton said, there's no way that he's actually gonna give up play calling. Like, it's just been who he's been since he's been a head coach and even before that obviously. But there's just no way. But I think that Davis Webb since he came into this building in 2023 has just made an impression not only on Payton, but deeper throughout the building in terms of just kind of where he's going and the way that his mind works. And I think the last two years, the growth that he's helped Bonyx have in terms of the grasping of the offense. You know, they just saw somebody who they thought could help elevate him to an even bigger level. And some of what you've seen with Davis Webb and Bonyx is, and part of this is it's Bonyx's third year in the offense. So he wasn't probably ready to take some of this. But now, they're having a lot more time in the communication headset where they're finishing the play call. And Davis Webb has given him a few little tags, a few little like reminders. Sometimes Bonyx said it's even just sort of a joke to cut the tension. They've been able to communicate a little bit more in that condensed window than I think Sean Payton and Bonyx were and how you quantify that, how it ultimately makes a difference that we kind of have to actually get to the games to know that. But I think it's clear that they have some things that they're doing just based on the communication of things that will give them more at the line of scrimmage possibilities before the snap. I think that's going to be one thing to watch. But yeah, it has been fascinating. I think Davis has taken it, you know, talking to teammates of our, talking to Broncos players about Davis Webb. Like they thought, okay, you're done with Sean Payton, this, you know, kind of hard-o about everything. Webb has been, as a guy who just played in the league, like three years ago, has been all over these guys in a way that I think they've ultimately come to appreciate. So I cannot wait to get to the season and see what it's going to look like. - It's so interesting. It feels similar in terms of what's the thought process behind this, what are the potential benefits of it? It reminds me of hearing about the thought process in Carolina, where you are going to an offensive coordinator that was there, and it's now the play call or instead of the head coach. And they've said the same sort of things, where breadhead's egg is in the meetings with Bryce all week, right? And so when you're talking about certain coaching points of, you know, what we're looking for with this route for this reason, we're talking about it on Tuesday. And so in the moment when you're calling the play, it's like, hey, you know, remember, we're looking for this on this. Like even just something like that, that little bit of context. It sounds like that's the exact same thinking, where because they're working with each other the entire week, that dialogue is just more consistent. There's a little bit more shared experience when it comes to like what those game planning moments looked like, and there's potential benefits in that. So I think we have two scenarios in the league that are really similar, I think, in why teams made this decision in what they think they could get from it. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think I wrote a story actually with Joe Person, our Panthers writer, about first time play callers. And it kind of traces like, you know, what goes into it and why they represent such like, obviously an uncertainty, but also so much promise, because you have these guys that have played the position so recently that come in, and you're absolutely right about him being with Bonix all week, but it's also that he's been with Bonix for two years. So they just have a shorthand in the way that they communicate with one another that you can see. I'm not saying it's not telepathic, they're not just communicating an entire play call, which is like a wink or something like that, but they really do seemingly have this connection. And then from the offense itself, I think you're going to see a lot more motion with this team. They were, I think, a little bit static at times, pre-snap last year, and obviously you limited and personnel stuff that you can report during training camp, but I think it's very, I think it is easy to say that this is going to be a team that moves a little bit more, more motion, kind of giving the defense more things to look at before the snap. I think it's just, again, Bonix being in his third year, being able to handle and direct that kind of traffic a little bit more, that's one thing I think to watch out for with Davis Webb. And Jalen Wattlesman back in practice for a few days now, correct? Correct. Yeah, on recording this on Thursday, Wednesday's practice of training camp. He did something that we, I've seen very few times last four or five years, which is absolutely got the better of Pass or 10 on a 60-yard deep ball from Bonix. And to talk to Pass or 10 after, he was scheduled to talk to the media that day. And this poor guy, you would think that he had just been a total bum that just gives him a look. Because it's such a rare occurrence for just like, wait, Pat, this actually happened, kind of thing. So Wattles, Wattles looks, he looks, I mean, again, they've been cautious with a lot of veterans. They've given a lot more veteran days than we've seen in the past. This team's getting a little bit older. That's been part of the process. So I don't think it was anything significant for Wattles. And he's certainly looked to the part as recently as Tuesday this week. When you think about usage and what he's going to bring to the offense, do you feel like it's him mostly taking over the same roles we've seen get filled by guys like Marvin Mims is the way they're deploying him seemingly a little bit different than the stuff that you've seen. What do you think the J1 Wattles effect on the offense overall is supposed to look like? And what do you think it's going to look like? You know, it's interesting. As soon as that trade happened, one of the first things I heard from somebody in the building was, watch what this does for the run game. And I think they faced so many, so many heavy boxes last year that they think that his speed and the ability to kind of work him in the middle to really make you think twice about the way that you're stacking up the box. That's where they see real opportunity. Of course, he's going to catch a ton of balls. They're going to use him in a lot of these different mesh routes that they like to run so often. But I think that's one aspect to look at. It's just how well can he be on the field to have you disguise running past and then be a guy that they really have to account for? That was sort of the first thing. I think just also having a guy consistently in the slot to get open quickly, I think that's one thing that they maybe missed a little bit last year was having just that route runner that you can count on, third and short, third and medium, whatever it might be to say, hey, I know this guy's going to get open for me. That's where you kind of see him and Bonyx, I think, trying to develop that and camp to where-- this is coming to-- we can count on this as sort of an automatic for a team that for all their success last year, one thing that they had way too many of was three announced. I think they were toward the top of the league and three and out percentage. And when they would get rolling, they'd be fine. But I think he's going to help them avoid some of these early, third down issues that they have, particularly early in football games. From all that I've heard, obviously this is from afar, this can happen, where there's just a drum beat about the quality of a player's training camp. Pat Bryant is just Jerry Rice now? Yeah, Jerry Rice or like some version of Rod Smith that's been here before. Yeah, it's been wild. Part of it is he-- you mentioned Jalen Waddle missed a little bit of time. Marvin Mims missed a little bit of time. And camps all of a sudden, Pat Bryant's just getting like every rep with the first team. And every single day he has been-- I tried to stiff arm a lot of this camp hyperbole as well because it just-- it can feed itself, as you know. Like it can-- all of a sudden, a guy has a good day. And now we just sort of decided he's having a great camp. Yeah, it has been every day for Pat Brian. It's not one of these things like, oh, yeah. Like he had a great start to camp. So we're just sort of remembering that as a great camp. No, it's every single day with him. And so it was no surprise when they're very first 15-yard completion to start Friday's preseason game went to Pat Brian. I think the thing they like so much about him is he's so physical in the run game. So he's a guy that you can have on the field a lot. He can be that big slot for you, but he can also play on the outside and kind of be Courland Sutton's true back up in those situations. Vance Joseph said it like he-- Champagne loves that he catches the ball with his feet on the ground, which is great as Courland Sutton is. Sometimes that's not always his strong suit. They believe that Pat Brian along with Jalen Waddle can give them a lot more yards after the catch this year, which was another thing they were sort of missing from their offense a year ago. So he's got to stay healthy at two concussions last year. And he does play. He kind of has this fearless brand where he doesn't always protect himself. So that's got to be sort of part of the coaching points with him, but he's been excellent as he starts his second year. Do you think we see a lot of all of them together? And if we see a lot of all three of those guys together, what do the roles look like? Is it where Brian and Waddle have inside out flex? Do we think that if Waddle is out there, Brian won't be-- how much 11 personnel do you think they can play with those three? And do you feel like they can all kind of coexist in a way that feels cohesive? Yeah, I do. I think it's what you said. I think Brian and Waddle both have a lot of inside out flex. And they use them in the slot in different ways. There are route trees in there are different. Brian last year really became kind of like a-- especially like the last third of the year, like a really counted on slot guy or a slant guy out of the slot. The bonics really started to gain some trust. And I think I wrote it the other day that he became-- he became their second biggest third down target behind Portland Sutton in the second half of the last year, which was sort of an illustration of the trust that Bonix was gaining in him. So I do think that you're going to see all three of those guys in 11 personnel. But then you also have Marvin Mims, who I think is such an interesting guy, because every time they have to have something from him, he delivers it. I mean, the Buffalo game and the playoffs was a perfect example. They're injured. With or without Pat Bryant, Troy Franklin gets hurt. They're just down to, I mean, little Jordan Humphrey had to touch down in that game, because they just were so down receivers. And Mims catches eight balls on eight targets for 93 yards. They want to continue to find him ways. And I think they just-- it's sort of an embarrassment of riches if everybody's healthy. And that even Evan Ingram has quietly had a very good training camp. He and Davis Webb go back. They were both rookies with the Giants in 2017, which is kind of funny to think about. You know, Evan's the other day sitting here talking about how, you know, when Davis was in the quarterback's room with Eli Manning in 2017, he's basically like, you know, helping break down the scouting report for everything. Like he was a coach already, basically, as a rookie. So I think you've seen Davis and Evan having that kind of, again, that sort of knowledge of one another's game so closely that he's going to kind of have a role too. I think you'll see him Ingram, that is, even in the backfield a little bit. And, you know, I think they want to have him be more involved in the red game. Now, he's got to actually show that he can do that because that was a part of the reason that he didn't play nearly as much percentage of snaps wise last year as he had been in Jacksonville. So I think they want to find ways to get him on the field more often this year, too. Speaking of the backfield, this last question I had for you. I mean, what does that mix look like? Jonah Coleman had a really nice start to his preseason. How much is he going to be involved there? If Jake Adabins gets hurt, do we think that Jonah Coleman is actually going to be the guy who gets more of the workload just because of how up and down RJ Harvey's rookie season was? Like, what is your sense for how that trio of guys looks right now? What the mix might be when we actually get into it? Yeah, I think the ideal scenario for them right now is that that Jake Adabins continues to be healthy and he has that, you know, heavy workload that he had last year when he went down a week 10. I think it was the league's fifth leading rusher at the time. And then have Jonah Coleman who kind of has a very similar run style and kind of fits the profile for a lot of the runs they want to do with Dobbins. I think you can slot Jonah Coleman into that. So I think that their idea would be to have him be the true backup, I guess as far as a runner. And then, you know, obviously try to maybe, especially early in the season, less than Jake Adabins loads a little bit by having Jonah Coleman take some of those carries. And then I think RJ Harvey is going to turn into your kind of like, you know, your Swiss Army knife, your third down guy, your two minute, he's really as much as he was up and down last year, particularly when it came to like, you know, rushing inside the tackles. He really grew as a past receiver. I ended up with over 50 catches when you include the playoffs had a couple really big ones made in the season. So I think he can kind of be their, you know, Sprouls type player. If you're looking at it from the perspective of what Sean Payton's offenses had in New Orleans, I think he could be that kind of player for them. That would be their ideal. But I think the biggest thing Jonah Coleman brings is that if Jake Adabins does get hurt, which unfortunately has been a common occurrence for him in his career, even though he pinky promised us at the start of the camp, these unplay all 17 games that you would have somebody in Coleman who can come in and sort of just be a more natural kind of fit to take his place in the event that he misses games. McPasmider always great to hear from you, sir, sincerely appreciate the insight. We'll talk to you again very soon. Thanks, Laura. I appreciate it. Joining us now, it is our chiefs writer here at the athletic Jesse Newell, Jesse, how you doing, man? Doing great. Doing great. How about yourself? Doing well. Excited to dig into this conversation. Obviously, it's been a unique off season for the Kansas City Chiefs, I think in a bunch of different ways. I want to start with, so we're recording this on August 20th. I think it was yesterday where somebody at a press conference, I don't know what the inspiration for it was, asked a question that it pretty much like post A&D read like, hey, what does it feel like for people to think you're going to be bad on offense seemingly for the first time ever? And so I'm just curious, based on what happened last year, some of the potential changes we're going to see this year, like what the overall kind of feeling is around what the chiefs offense has to change and how much faith we have in those things getting changed based on what you've seen early in training camp. Yeah, who asked him that question? We got to look around on that, I don't know, I'm not even influenced by my athletic football show, Robert Mays picking the chiefs with his favorite offenses, but just not really wanting to do it, not being totally sold on it, so. So I would never presume to think that. There was like a 5% in the back of my mind being like, I wonder if what I said about them during the show, it inspired a question that I was led to that answer. So the fact that that actually is true is funny, because I was like, it may be, I don't think I have that much influence, but maybe, so now I'm a little bit uncomfortable about it, but thank you. No, it's okay. I asked the question, so we're all good here. It is so fascinating with the chiefs, just as you said, because of that dynamic, which is, you know, I think in the comment section of that story, there was one person like, Andy Reach never faced this question, he's a Hall of Fame coach, he's better than everyone else out there. And then someone else saying, oh my god, finally, somebody asked Andy Reed this question, he's been coasting by for so long. So it is an interesting dynamic in Kansas City, and yeah, the more, I think the more national and local you get, if you will, you hear this sort of criticism of Andy Reed, hey, is the offense coming back? Are they asking patrimons to do too much? Is this thing modern enough? To coach us sometimes, lose their touch, as we've seen in the past, even, you know, last year with Pete Carroll or whatever, these coaches, you know, you go, you get old very quickly. So his response was sort of interesting, I thought he said, nobody's bigger, nobody's more critical or has more cragly than I do. And so the things you talked about changing in the podcast and the things I think that the chiefs you would think would go more towards, we've seen that in training camp, we've seen more under center stuff, we've seen them sort of cater to Kenneth Walker's strengths as a running back and try to get more explosion in the run game. I know one thing from that discussion with Andy Reed, and interesting enough, he does this every year with the beat riders, he does it in his de facto dorm room office in Missouri, Western. So it's a cool set up because you've got about, you know, 50 square feet in there and then you and eight riders and Andy Reed, but he's talking about what's so interesting if you go back to the film of the first preseason game against the Rams. The chiefs did a play action. It was Kenneth Walker's only rush of the game or only play of the game. They play action to Kenneth Walker and that inside linebacker immediately flowed downhill. And he Reed told us, I like that. I didn't see that a year ago. I didn't see that second level defender moving like that and they believe that can open things up. So I do think there's some tweaks. They had a long, long offseason and chief standards to be able to figure some things out. But I do think some of those changes you guys have been talking about, they're coming to the Kansas City Chiefs. We'll just see how effective they're going to be. >> We've talked so much about the explosion necessary in the run game. And I think going under center, well, we've talked about the lot in regards to the Bengals, how going under center it can make you more explosive on the ground because there are only so many concepts you can run from the gun. So beyond adding Kenneth Walker to the mix, going under center I think potentially gives you a more explosive ground game. So the fact that they're coming at it from two directions, I believe in that part happening. And I think if you're going to be under center, you're going to use more play action because you have to. Right? It's the only way for that all to come together. So that part, I see, I respect and I believe in what that's going to look like. My big issue, and I think an issue that a lot of people have brought up if you have some reservations about this team, the receiving core is the same. Right? For the most part, we're relying on the same guys that tried it out a year ago. So on early downs, we can be more explosive under center with Kenneth Walker. When it's third and seventh, teams are still going to be playing a lot of man coverage and challenging this group because of the limitations that they showed last year. So whether it's based on what you've seen or what you've asked, why should we anticipate the passing game being more capable in some of those situations, then they were a year ago. If all the pass catchers are going to be the same. >> It's a really good question. I think you can bank on a little bit of the pass catchers being improved or better. Now, it's not the skill type you're talking about because I know we talked to the combine when you were saying, this chief seam needs a juan Jennings. They need that guy and then they didn't go get that day. Yeah. So the one change in personnel is Cyrus Allen and he's a fifth round pick. But he has impressed in camp with some of the quick movement stuff, the man beating stuff, the thing that has been there bugaboo over time. So there's potentially a little hope with that. Again, it's a rookie. >> So you think this is beyond like normal camp hype for a day three pick, like you think he can be more involved than a fifth round pick typically would be? Or are we pulling back the reins on that a little bit? >> So I've got a great anecdote from Andy Reid here and this is what I feel. So I feel like the chief coaches ask a lot of their receivers, they've been getting Cyrus to do all the different positions, which is great for him beating on the field, but also tough for him to learn everything and to be able to know all of that stuff and have all that knowledge in you. And you've gone through the pass with the chiefs. I mean, were she right? Had a good rookie season? It was late in his rookie season, Xavier Worthy had a good rookie season. It was late in his rookie season. It takes those guys some time. But a great anecdote from Andy Reid. He said that in the preseason game against the Rams, that Cyrus Allen went out there. He'd line up in the wrong spot. They run the play, Mahomes throws it to him anyway for a completion. So it's the perfect thing for me of where Cyrus is, you're talking about, is this real? What is real for this? I mean, you know, fifth round pick, he's not going to cool. Okay, we can stop there. But like, as somebody was giving me the comparison of like Safan Diggs in his rookie year, what he did. And there was somewhere around 50 catches, 500 yards. I mean, if you can give them an element and, hey, a safety valve against man coverage that's not Travis Kelsey anymore, that's a big deal for them. But my question is exactly what I just talked about, which is, this isn't often said is so built on details. It's so built on preciseness, it's so built on. We have to have you in the right spot for Patrick Mahomes and he has to trust you being there. That is that going to happen with Cyrus Allen. And in the preseason, you let him play through, oh, you didn't line up exactly right. In the regular season, there's just not as much appetite for that sort of thing. So I think it's an interesting dynamic. I do think the shiftiness, the speed that he really didn't test to in college is real. How much will that be in this first year? I don't know, but I think the upside is high for him. And to your earlier point, it is something that they don't have and something that this receiving court is needed for a while. >> Yeah, I don't need for him to be Pukka Nakooa, that's not, for me, it's more like is he going to be, when we look at the snap count at the end of the year and the routes run, is he going to be within spitting distance of Xavier Worthy and Hershey Ryze? Is he going to be like the third most used receiver on the team? Is he going to be in the mix and in the rotation? If that is going to happen, that's more than enough for you to feel good about him bringing a different element to the groups that they've had over the last couple years. And it sounds like there's a possibility of him being that level of player and contributor early on. >> Yeah, they're impressed by him. They like him and a lot of their rookies, what's interesting about this particular class is, you talk about him, Peter Woods, Emma Johnson, Montsord Delane, coming with a, I'm trying to get the right word, like a humble ready to learn sort of attitude. I mean, these guys, with the chiefs, they rave about Cyrus' ability to like take coaching and improve himself and not be resistant to it. And, you know, I'm not sure if they had that in the past with some guys and maybe it's limited their growth, but the fact that they've talked about that with him so far, I think, as a positive sign. But it gets to the whole puzzle with this, which for the chiefs is, it's fine if he's your third or fourth receiver, if you can rely on her, she writes, to be on the field. If you can rely on Xavier Worthy, to not get hurt and run the full route tree. If you can rely on Taikwan Thornton to be your field spacer, but the question becomes, what if one or two of those guys gets hurt, then what are you asking Cyrus' sound to do? And then is it too much for a rookie, again, who's still trying to figure out what position he's in, where he's line up on the field, and have all those things happen, and then go run around without thinking. That's the big thing in the chiefs offense. Once you can go do things and let your natural abilities show without thinking, you're in a great spot. It just normally takes about half a season for those guys, maybe Cyrus' sound is the exception. >> So let's talk about a couple of those other guys, because for all of the rave reviews about Cyrus' sound coming out of training camp, for as good as it sounds like his camp has gone, from the outside, it feels like Rashee Rice has been on the exact other end of that. Has Rashee Rice is showing so far, and the expectations for Rashee Rice been as bad as I have been led to believe it has been, based on the very little I have read about his time so far in training camp. >> So the videos are not good, if you look at some of the separation stuff, the very first, I'm sure you saw it, like the first post-route he ran in the first practice, it looked like he was feet in quicksand, it has gotten better since then, and I think the chiefs, internally, their hope is that it keeps getting better, and that you're working through this thing, and it is a ramp up period, you know, he still is getting in game shape. He's having to trust him, and I think that very first day in the videos you saw, it's a guy that was going out there like, this thing just got surgically repaired, I didn't really get a full rehab like I would have at the team facility because I was in jail, I don't know how this thing is going to respond, I know, you have to lack that, it's in your sense, so I just said it. But that sort of thing is like, do I trust this thing, do I trust it, and it didn't not look like that first aid trusted, it's gotten gradually better. What's so interesting about the chiefs this year, and the whole NFL training camp just ended for the chiefs, and yet it's like three and a half weeks until they play a game. So there's still time here for him to get that back at the explosion. The other thing I would caveat it with is, you know, I just said it earlier, where she Rice is not a beat man coverage guy. He's that throw it on the flat and have been bowled over to other guys and gained 12 yards and be the yak monster of these bends. So they need somebody else, the end to the Yang, they need a Cyrus Allen type, they need to move away from Travis Kelsey having to be that third down security blanket for Patrick from home every single time because he is losing a step, you know, father time comes from us all for us all, but yeah, I think he can still thrive in this chiefs offense because they level what he does and how he turns into a running back after he catches and how he bulls guys over. And he can still be effective at that if somebody else is taking on some of these other roles that they need. So that's where Cyrus and him can play into each other and potentially help each other out. But as far as where she writes goes, it has not looked pretty, and if the explosion doesn't come back, it's concerned, but I do think there's enough time for it to come back, and it would make sense why he's not trusting this knee as he might have his season ago. >> I think the other reason for potential optimism with this team is that the offensive line in theory should be better this year because mostly because it should be healthier, right? And so how Josh Simmons has just been good to go from day one here? >> Yeah, he's been good to go. He's been out in the last couple days with a back ailment, but it's weird with these chiefs entries like they don't see any of them as very severe. >> Okay, everybody should be good for week one. It's one of those camp things like, hey, let's give him a couple days. The thing about Josh Simmons is, he is a freak, athletically freak. He added a little bit of weight coming back into camp. He's not the normal 310-320 type, the anchor in your butt to keep you anchored down. But I mean, he's so freaky athletically that they feel good about his potential and what he could become. But I think you're right, Robert, I mean, when you talk about the chiefs, I remember going back to the combine and Brett Veeze talking to us and saying, for the chiefs, they need to focus on their interior 3 and becoming more of a downhill run team. And you're talking about Kingsley Somatia, who had a great year left guard after he moved from left tackle, Creed Humphrey, All Pro, Trace Smith, one of the richest right guards in NFL history. Those guys need to not be as much RPO, can I hold on to the guy, can I keep him here sort of thing, they need to get downhill and knock somebody on their butt. And so that's more what the chiefs are looking into this year. Plus, you have a guy with vision now. When he comes to Kenneth Walker and being able to see some scenes and I am going to give you great news, Robert, based off of a recent podcast, which is if I could not be higher from, hope your league is a PPR, at least have PPR because they are throwing screens all over the place to Kenneth Walker in practice and also in the red zone, they're handing it to him all the time. So this is not like a two down backroll, like Ian Seattle. They are looking to get him the ball and make him a workhorse. And so he could win some fantasy leagues this year, as long as he's as healthy, but a lot of that will be him being behind the best offensive enemies ever been behind. That should be this chiefs team, if they can say healthy as well. No, that's my song, baby. I appreciate that. That's exactly what I like to hear. The question I have along the offensive line, what's going on at right tackle? Because my assumption was just that Jalen Moore was probably going to get that job, but it sounds like that's maybe a little bit more unsettled than you might have thought coming into training camp. It's been really weird. And you talk about the offensive line being a strength, I agree with that. It's a strength of it's healthy. And we saw last year they weren't healthy and it really was a weakness. This year the interior, I think there's a lot of question marks there because what's happened is when their right guard has been out, when Trace Smith, they've moved one of those two tackles in Jalen Moore or Cleo Benson to right guard. And then when Josh Simmons has been out, they've moved one of those guys to left tackle. So you're really trying to settle this right tackle battle for the chiefs. And yet they keep trying to basically say, well, we like these six guys better than anybody else. And there's an injury. We're going to sub these guys over here, but it's like, wait a minute, you need a right tackle. If you are going to start Cleo Benson, Game 1, Cleo Benson, undrafted rookie-free agent of Indiana, not only that, he was a tryout guy. He showed up at chief rookie mini camp. They called him said hey, you want to come try out with a hundred other guys He said sure and he makes these one of three that signs among a hundred guys that show up to camp I looked us up and you'll appreciate the dropper from true media I looked it up since 2000 there have been two other undrafted rookies who have started as a rookie at tackle in the NFL Two of them one had major off-field issues the other guy had a an injury in camp where he had to step in for the other guy It was injured. This liver is my own Collins. What's that? Was I own Collins one of them? I like I'll pull up the list for you and we could put it in the notes, but I did put the one was with the charges and ones with the Vikings It was it was craziness just to kind of go back and be like this never happens. And this is a tryout guy So it's unprecedented the chiefs are gonna do this sort of thing and put Cleal Benson in a right tackle to start Jalen Moore's had a good last week or so. I think they're gonna go with the veteran I think they're gonna stick with him and then that would allow Cleal Benson to be some interior depth for them Just in case the worst case scenario happens But this thing is not officially settled yet. So if Benson does become the right tackle for them It's a big question mark. It's a big risk But also be a great story because this sort of thing never happens in the NFL What's go to the players that they invested a lot more in in this rookie class and that is all the guys they drafted on defense I think the hope for the defense if you're trying to build the optimistic case here is that the baseline has been fine Right, I mean this team was I think 13th in EPA for plan defense last year. There's a certain floor established with the guys They have plus de-espegnola Hope is the young guys that you added in the draft can that give you a certain injection of talent of pop to kind of take This thing a step forward and take it to a slightly different level That's the plan. What does that plan looked like in practice so far based on what you've seen from the young players that they added? Yeah, real quick. I didn't want to leave the clipping here to you're too long 2012 Michael Harris of the Chargers 2018 Desmond Harrison of the Browns are your two tackles that started as undrafted rookies in their first game as rookies not something that happens very often But my good point the chiefs needed some juice from after last year and I think if you look around the NFL and the teams that were in the final four last year You talk about teams that had not only good defensive lines, but defensive line rotations Guys that could bring in and how often I mean the big thing we think about with Chris Jones from last year is the game Against Trevor Lawrence against the Jaguars game point and he's walking. He's not going to the quarterback But in Chris Jones's defense He's played more snaps as a defensive tackle than anybody else out there because there's been nobody around him They just keep cycling these veterans who aren't very good and haven't had much production and so with Derek Nadie again One more year of Derek Nadie trade back Derek Nadie the plan this offseason is no more Derek Nadie Retred sort of stuff go get real guys. And so yeah, they went outside Kyra's Tonga immediately What's been cool about watching Kyra's is you see these one-on-one battles and training camp and Creed Humphrey dominates all of them all the time since I've been covering it five years Kyra's just got him a couple times and you're like, oh, that's different Derek Nadie didn't get him You know Kyra's Tonga gets him every once in a while, but you talk about the juice, you know Peter Woods He had a minor ankle injury here about a week ago So we haven't seen that same juice from him, but early on and one-on-ones man You saw some stuff from him. You saw the quick hands. He's down to 308 pounds. It kind of They want him to be quicker inside Whereas Clemson, I think bulked him up trying to make him you know a two-gap or sort of thing They saw the potential and the other guy who I looked a year ago this time actually a year ago to the day Our dane brookler at the athletic had Peter Woods. This is number one prospect a year ago in 2025 for this class So you're seeing more potential that hopefully it's healthy, but then the chiefs had a couple plays against the Rams in the preseason Armason Thomas. This is the defensive and they just never have the speed rush around the edge who can clean up on third down and They really missed that guy a season ago and twice Armason Thomas came around the end got pressures and forced a play that the chiefs couldn't get a season to go on defense To get them off the field or to put to create some havoc that they couldn't To be able to you know move on in the possession and get them all back to the offense So I do see some more juice. They needed that and what's so interesting about the chiefs We think about the veterans the Patrick Mahomes the Travis Kelsey's of the world the Chris Jones If you look at like average age of the team the chiefs are one of the youngest out there They have a lot of young dudes So it'll be interesting to see how this comes together But I think the best version of the chiefs defense is led by a defensive line that has not always been the strength outside of Chris Jones and then letting spags do spags things off of that and if that unit leads the chiefs I think that's gonna be the best the best potential of this defense if you're looking at 2026 and I'll be curious to see What that looks like the spags who backs up on the back end because when this defense was at its best when they were Scariest during that 20-23 season they could really play man coverage be aggressive be the enforcer and force the issue By going out and getting Mansour Delay and what we saw from no Williams last year again from the outside It feels like can we get back to that place? We had those sorts of skill sets First question Mansour Delay and again recording this on August 20th. He's back practicing correct and what does that look like so far? So he has come back. He's made some plays. He is so fun to watch because he is so grabby I'm saying right like it that him being there like doesn't that isn't that a breadcrumb to pick up on about how they might want to play It is so spagsian and they always It's interesting to hear the chiefs talk about because spags will talk about Hey, hey, this guy got a penalty last game. What do you do? How do you try to coach that? I mean goes? It's okay for me. I'd rather try to teach aggression down Out there grabbing enough, you know to see what you can get away with or just see hey lose that physical mentality And he part of that is bringing a Jerry Steve back as well having that mentality of a guy who goes out there and knows What spags once and once that physicality, but it's kind of the joke around I mean Montsoor has been so physical that in yesterday's practice they put those mitts on him, you know like the boxing sparring mitts So that he couldn't grab anybody and it's like yeah, this dude needs that like he needs to see everybody in a rap because at some point in the NFL They are gonna call it. I'm a little I'm a little worried based off of the chiefs covering them Spags is so focused on spring practices summers practices getting a guy in the system having faith in him and having him know the play calls So with Montsoor until this last week, they had him do kind of mental reps and then run off the field out of the huddle He has not gotten that full slate and if you hear spags talk about him He keeps saying we need him out there like he's missing out on something. He's missed so I'm a little bit worried Obviously six pick overall is a bigger deal than like last year Christian Fulton comes in as a free agent has a knee clean up surgery Is an available in training camp until the last week and then goes MIA and they don't play him because there's not that faith built up But it's a different beast with Montsoor to land I get that but just a little bit concerned because the lack of reps there and Gaining that trust that sees back on use to throw you out there, but your break up ignore William So I don't know if we're gonna get to him next he's he's a great last few days have been great He played great in the game against the Rams and so it seems sure seems like he's ready for a bigger role and could be one of those breakout players But delaying right now training in the right direction really physical, but yeah, we'll spags trust him Will he be ready to put him in man coverage when the lights come on bright? That'll be the question Two more questions one They've used to worry Conor in the slot a lot over the last couple years I can understand that but I also think that there are coverage deficiencies that eventually started to matter because of what his limitations look like Do we see do you see him playing more full-time safety this year based on how that room is constructed and like If that is the case, what does the slot corner spot look like over the course of the year? Yeah, you want to talk about the shoes beefing up at defensive line They did the same thing a slot corner and for the exact three things you talked about you know They they went on got cater co who they have crystal and walls in house who got injured at the end of last year It was kind of a safety and a corner safety nickel sort of hybrid He's been taking most of the one snaps and they drafted Jayden Kennedy in the fourth round So they have three different options there That they can go to to keep Shemari Conor in the back. What's so interesting is going on practice and then hearing the words because We've seen Shemari Conor and safety almost every single play and so then I asked you saying all I said What is the plan with Shemari Conor here goes? Well, we still think we can rotate them and play him nickel And it's like okay, I know you don't want to get weight-trade secrets I get it, but I'm here every day of practice They want to move him to safety and come downhill fit in the run game It should be a much better fit on always for him to move back toward the back end and play more to his strengths than they did the last couple years Who is stood out in a surprise way on that side as you've watched every single day of practice Maybe who's going to be more of a contributor difference maker guy who lends to the way that this defense feels in a way that I don't Appreciate right now as somebody who's not watching practice every day Yeah, well again, you know, but the big name players I'd start with I would start with Peter Woods just that it's hard Andy Read even said this he said it back a few months ago But you see the number 99 on his jersey and he even kind of backed off the quote once he said it because he knew as like I don't want to make headlines angry never mind wants to make headlines, but he said you see some Aaron Donald like quality So you know you see you squit hard enough you go I see the movement skills that made that guy a beast and this guy has a little bit of that juice now What's a little scary for the chiefs is that last year a year ago that oh more and I'm oh more and more and more and a lot Their second round pick had an ankle injury he played through it and then like a few weeks later towards ACL It was out the season this year Peter Woods wasn't playing as well got an ankle injury he's playing through it. It's like Maybe you want to back off. I don't know they're having him play through it and we'll see if he gets that explosion back I haven't seen that the last couple days But if if so if he shows what he flashed a couple weeks ago that she still would be really happy with that first round pick I would mention Chris Roland Walls as well. I mean he's gonna be a starter in the slot unless something goes completely wrong And so if he solves that issue for them and allows that chest piece to still move up up back those things that Steve Spagnol likes. What's so fascinating is the Chiefs taking on sort of lane with number six because there's always seems to be this type of player that Steve Spagnol that falls in love with and plays a lot. And this year it's gonna be Chris Rowan Wallace. So he should be a guy at the nickel for the Chiefs who should contribute a lot of snaps and should be in there for a lot of plays that people might not know about just yet. - Finding a workable nickel in the fourth round is a little bit different than when you want to play a little bit more f*ck you, ma'am coverage. Those guys are a little bit harder to find in the fourth round. So I think that might be the thought process behind taking a little bit of a bigger swing on Mansour to lane. Jesse Newell always appreciated, sir. Great to get your insight. We will do it again soon. - All right, appreciate it. (upbeat music) - Joining us now, it is our Packers writer here at the athletic match diamond. How are you doing, sir? - I'm great, how are you? - I'm doing well. This is my last one of these. - Excellent. You got a quick drive back to Chicago after this? - I'm quicker, not as quick as I'd like. - I'm leaving about when I'm about to leave. I'm probably tacking on like 45 minutes more than I want, but it makes it easy. It's only getting back and forth from here to there is it barely counts. It's like a training camp stop. I could just sleep in my own bed tonight. - Well, welcome back to Green Bay. How'd you enjoy the day? - It was good, yeah. - It was good, it was a beautiful day. - It was great. - I mean, it was gorgeous outside. I mean, that was a perfect day. It's like truly like a cloudless 75 degree day in Green Bay, watching the football. It's definitely better than that. - How are you feeling about this team right now? - Yeah, I don't really know. - I don't know. - What were you gonna say? - I had this conversation, we had this conversation every summer, and I feel like each year there's this, all right, there's this like smoldering level of young talent on this team, can they kick the door down? And then when they didn't do it last year, I think it kind of reframes the conversation that you're having, but I don't know where it puts us. Like they're kind of confounding, because it does feel a little bit different than the tenor of the discussions we've been having for the last couple of years of the mat with Floreira. - Sure, I think this is probably the first year where that youth and an experience has turned into, okay, now you've got to perform. I think that was their last year after they made the Micah trade. It was like, okay, this is not an excuse anymore. And people inside the building have never really used it as an excuse. It's more of a justification, and we're playing with house money. They never said that, but that's just what I'm saying. Now it's, okay, now there's pressure. You just gave your head coach, but I'm assuming is a massive extension. Official dollar signs haven't been made public. This is year two of the going all in per se after the Micah trade, but I just get the sense, and I like to think I have a pretty good pulse of the fan base that there's just some apathy amongst the fan base because they've been the seven seed for three straight years. They've had these premature playoff exits, and after that 23 playoff quote unquote run, where they go in and slaughter the cowboys and Jordan loves first year starting, and then have a lead in the fourth quarter against the 49ers in the divisional round. It's kind of petered out after that. - It feels like a long time ago. That felt like the height of the excitement, and it's been a while since then. - Right, but I also think something that is very worthwhile to note is that entering week 15 last year, the Packers were nine, three, and one. First place in the division coming off, Kishon Nixon interception at the buzzer against the bears on fourth down, second in the NFC behind, I believe the Seahawks at the time. They were in prime position to challenge for that one seed. Then they go to Denver and Zach Baku Buwele, who's not Zach Tom anymore. Their best offensive lineman by far, suffers a partially torn patella tendon and doesn't play again for the rest of the season. They're up by, keep in mind, Jordan love was third in MVP odds entering week 15 behind Stafford in Drake May. They go into Denver, Jordan dices up the Broncos, one of the best defenses in the league in the first half. They're up nine in the third quarter. He throws a perfect deep ball to Christian Watson that might have put them up by 16, and that's pretty much game over. Patrick Cirtan makes an incredible interception, lands awkwardly on Watson, and Christian Watson gets ambienced off to the hospital because they're worried about dislocated ribs. Oh, and then a couple minutes after that Micah Parsons tears his ACL. So that game in Denver was a physical and emotional blow to the Packers' hopes. They did not win again after that. There were nine, three and one in prime position for a division championship. They lose their best offensive lineman, their best overall player, Watson ended up being fine, but that's like a blow. And then they just collapse that game. The next week in Chicago, Jordan love gets concussed, and he doesn't play again for the rest of the regular season. And then we know what happened in the playoffs against the Bears. So Parsons is going to be back probably week six against the Cowboys. Arguably the best tight end in the NFL who missed the entire second half of last season with a torn ACL is back. He's playing week one, probably without a snap count. They're getting their best interior delinement back in Devante Wyatt, and they have their best offensive lineman back. So while there is some, I say all that to say, while there is some apathy, I also think we need to remember where the Packers were entering that Denver game last year, and the fact that they're almost at that level, if not better this time around, 'cause I think Kraft is your third most important player on this team behind Love and Parsons, and he's back to almost full strength. - I don't disagree with any of that. And I think that's, it's a weird tension when you're talking and thinking about this team, where I do think apathy, I'm not to the point of apathy, but I think that there is a little bit of like, you know, like what, why would they be better? You know, like we've had this excitement about this team, each of the last couple of seasons, they've fallen short of that. Why should I have the excitement again? But everything that you just said is right. And so where do you fall between those two? I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, right? But you look, let's take it individually. The quarterback, I think is still under it, in how we talk and think about the quarterback, and like how good he is in the pecking order and what you're capable of when he's the quarterback. But the rest of the, I think that there are two places I would land when it comes to the, maybe lack of excitement compared to last year. I think we've talked a lot about this show, and other people I think are more worried about it than me, but it has come up a lot as the quality of the offensive line. Like the offensive line is not that good of a unit. And will that hold them back from being a top five offense like they had each of the last couple of years? Are they really worse than they were at the end of last season along the offensive line? You know, Rashid Walker played a solid left tackle for them last year. I was shocked that he only got like a one year, $4 million deal from the Panthers. I just think there are a lot of question marks on the offensive line. They might be better, but Jordan Morgan, who is their 2024 first round pick. He, yeah, 2024 first round pick, he's starting at left tackle. He's never played meaningful snaps there in the NFL. He was a college left tackle at Arizona. They've moved him around between left guard, right guard, right tackle, the bench. Now he's getting a chance to play his favorite position and he's been doing so well so far. Left guard is Aaron Banks. They signed him to a four years, $77 million deal. Lying last year as free agency from the 49ers, he's always hurt. He was healthy for a little bit at the end of last season and played well, but he's still kind of working his way back to full strength. So that's a big question. So it was left tackle, center, Sean Ryan. He took over after Elton Jenkins went down for the season last year, played pretty well. They extended him three years, 33 million. So he's a solid center. Right guard, Anthony Belton was their second round pick last year out of NC State. He's the tackle, but they played him at right guard. He started seven games there, took over that job from Jordan Morgan, started the second half of the season. He's been so bad in past protection that he's no longer, I mean, Adam Stenevich says he's in the right guard competition still, but he's realistically not. He's their swing tackle. He's their backup right tackle. His past protection has not been good. So in comes Jacob Monk, who was a fifth round pick a couple years ago at a Duke, missed a lot of the off season because he tore his peck, I believe, in the playoff game. He hasn't played any meaningful snaps really for this team ever, but it's the right guard competition is between him and Jagger Burton, who's a rookie fifth round pick out of Kentucky. So more unknown there. And then right tackle is the guy who doesn't look like his normal all pro caliber self two years ago when Zach called him ZBB. We'll call him ZBB. He received the third most all provosts among right tackles behind Penais Suel and Lane Johnson. And then they signed him to a four year 88 million dollar extension. He's the third best right tackle in football when he's healthy, but he hasn't looked quite back to his normal self. And there still is that question of, are you getting that same guy coming off off season surgery? So there's questions pretty much four out of five spots on the offensive line. I think that's right. I think my devil's advocate point would be, that's kind of how it was last year. And it wasn't great last year. Yeah, but they were still a top five offense, right? Like they were still capable of being a really dynamic on offense. And so I think I guess that's like, and part of me thinks that LaFlua is on such a good job of scheming around that group when it hasn't been great. Can that happen again? But I just don't know where I land with it. Like I understand the arguments on either side of it. But I think they would, I think they believed they could get better left tackle point out of Jordan Morgan than they got from Rashid Walker last year. Certainly. And I think a couple other important things just to put a bow on this offense talk. It's important to remember Christian Watson missed the first seven games of last year while recovering from a torn ACL. He is their number one receiver. He is a legitimate threat. Jaden Reed missed 10 weeks last year after breaking his collar bone in week two. So when Watson came back mid season, Reed was still out. And then Tucker Kraft, who when Tucker Kraft went down last year in week nine, the week before on Sunday night football in a win over the Steelers. Seven catches for 143 yards and two touchdowns. When he went down, he was first among all tight ends in yards after catch per reception, third among all tight ends in receiving yards and tied for second and touchdown catches. He's a great blocker. He said, I thought I was the best tight end in the NFL when I went down. You're having those three guys were never on the field at the same time. Now they're on the field at the same time. And you have year two of Matthew Gold in their first round pick last year who's looked awesome in camp. He did last year too. And you don't have, you know, Romeo Dobs and Dantavian Wicks were solid players for this team. Romeo Dobs probably more than solid. But you know this. The story with this team is always, they don't have a true number one. They just give the ball to whoever's open. And that probably stunted some of Matthew Golden's rookie expectations because they just give the ball four or five times a game to six different guys. Now it's a defined top three with Watson Reed and Golden. And then you have arguably the league's best tight end and a quarterback who's exceptional at avoiding sacks and navigating a dirty pocket. The run games a huge question because you don't know if their feature back is going to get suspended for six games that is still to be determined. And Marsh on Lloyd, who would then be the starter, has played one game in his first two years. And even though he's extremely explosive, you can't count on his health yet. So their passing game I think can be great. But they're all offensive line in their run game lot of questions. Where I land with it is that I think the offensive line most likely shakes out in the general range of what it was for most of last year. And if that happens and the past game is healthier and more dynamic than it was last season, shouldn't this team be scary on that side of the ball? I think the answer is yes. And I just don't think maybe I'm kind of on an island here. Maybe I shouldn't be putting this on other people. I'm just not sure that's the type of conversation that a lot of people are having about the Packers right now. In part because of that apathy that you're talking about. And that's fair, I understand that. But I do think this team when healthy is still a legitimate super bowl contender. The big question, I guess, to transition it to the defensive side of the ball. Well, let's let's let's let's let's let the receivers just really quickly. Yeah. As you're thinking about, you said the Christian Watson's number one receiver on this team. When you think about the pecking order, the workload, who is the prominence of these guys and how it shakes out? You think it's Watson Golden Reed? Watson Reed Golden, I'd say, right? Okay, really? Yeah, okay. And even with the type of training camp they'd golden this had, you still think that Jaden Reed is the second most important receiver on this team. 100%. Yeah, I think, you know, Jaden reads first two years with the Packers in 23 and 24. He, I believe, led the team in both catches and receiving yards and touchdown catches. He led in a couple of those categories. Then last year, he misses, you know, two and a half months with a couple surgeries. And I think people kind of forgot how important he is. He's far more than just a gadget piece. And I follow easy contests today over the main field. This is my eighth year covering this team. I've fallen victim to falling in love with guys in camp. And I think Golden's going to be a great player with more opportunities. But I'm not ready to be like, oh, he's above. I look back when I was on McAfee last summer. I saw a clip yesterday of me saying that Golden was the team's best receiver. I was like, all right, I need to maybe slow my role a little bit here. So I'd still go Watts and read Golden. But that's not a good place to be for sure as good of a campus. Yeah, for sure. And this is one of those where trying to figure out why didn't he get more opportunities last year? If he had such a good camp or he's such a talented player, it's that's such an easy explanation for me. It's one, young receivers have a hard time acclimating to this offense because of what is asked of them in the detail. And two, the skill set they needed when they drafted Matthew Golden was they needed somebody who could win against man coverage consistently when this team got to third down because they couldn't do it two years ago. Well, Romeo Dobbs became that player. So the reason that they needed Matthew Golden became way less important because you had a guy that ended up making $18 million a year, take up the mantle and fill that role within the offense that you drafted the guy in the first round to fill. It's an easy explanation for him. And I think like I was saying, this offense is predicated, not on feeding one guy the ball like it was when Aaron Rodgers had Devon Tay Adams. That was get the ball to Devon Tay Adams at all costs. He would have 12, 14 targets in a game. You're rarely going to see a guy with double digits. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but you're not going to see a guy with double digit targets. The most likely one is Tucker Kraft. He's their best and most dangerous pass catcher, I think. But to have three receivers who I think all can be, you know, legitimate number two guys on any team in the league. It's a good problem to have, I think. It is. And the only question I have is about those like big boy one-on-one situations where Romeo Dobbs improved so much as a route runner and like the physicality and the size really shows up in those moments. Golden is a physical player in the sense that we saw make a lot of contested catches in college. He'll go up and get the ball. But that frame is just different. And Watson's a bigger player, but he played his play style is just different than that. Yeah, I think his hands have really improved though. Like early in his career, his drops were a major problem. And his hands have gotten so much better and his contested catchability has gotten a lot better in recent years. But I definitely hear what you're saying that they don't have that AJ Brown type build, for example, they're more lanky guys, but I don't think it's a massive issue. I don't think it's a massive issue. Just stylistically a little bit different. Sure had last year, but as a group, they just have so much juice. Like that's the difference is that this is the most like collective explosiveness they've had for sure a group in a long time. And so I think there are positives and negatives. Like that's a positive. You that is a benefit and a version of this group that we just haven't seen here. Let's go to the defense where a lot of the bigger questions are. Let's start with me. Who's playing cornerback for this team on the outside in week. Well, I don't know if you had the guests. Brandon C say and Keisha Nixon. That's what it seems like. Yeah, because this team, as you know, is a draft and develop team. They don't draft guys to play them right away. Rashon Gary took like three years to become a guy who earned a $24 million contract before kind of petering out here. They took Jair Alexander and 18th overall back in 2018. Brian Guterkin's first draft pick, he didn't start right away. Eric Soak's who they took in the first round in 21. He didn't start right away. They didn't have a first round pick this year. They take Brandon C say corner out of South Carolina. In the second round, he's going to start right away. Keisha Nixon, and I've said this a million times before, he's not supposed to be this team's number one corner. Jair Alexander, he made two all pro teams here and then became the richest corner in NFL history, then had a bunch of health problems and his career fizzled out here. He's not even 30 years old yet. He's still supposed to be the number one corner here, but Keisha Nixon was thrust into that full-time role. He's gone from a two time all pro first team kick returner to a nickel corner to a part-time outside corner to the full time number one outside corner and fans hate him because he's not a number one corner, but that's what the packers need him to be. And some of the things he says pissed them off too. But I still think he's one of the two best corners on this team. It is interesting though, I didn't watch practice today because I was working on a different story where I wasn't watching team drills, but in recent weeks, they've rotated a lot at corner. And Keisha Nixon was working with the second team a couple times. So we asked Bobby Babich, who is their defensive passing in coordinator, was the bill's defensive coordinator. What's going on with Keisha taking reps with the second team? He said, we have a cornerback competition. And then as we see that play out, there's one guy on this team who's not rapping with the second team. Only one corner is exclusively working with the first team and it's the rookie. You have Nixon, you have Carrington Valentine, Benjamin St. Jews who's played for the commanders and the chargers who they signed this off season. Those are the other three guys who are in the mix for playing time, but I could very well see it being a rotation. And the problem is when you have a questionable cornerback group like that, as long as you have a pass rush, you're fine. But guess who's missing the first month and a half of the season, their best pass rushers. So I don't really have much faith in this defense until Michael Parsons returns. Yeah. I think they're going to have to get really creative until Michael Parsons returns. Oh, yes. I think and it to me, it comes on two fronts. One, do they turn up the heat just consistently? And I think they probably will. They'll probably have to. I mean, this is when when Jonathan Ganon's funny because when he was in Philly, it was very simple. It was like, we're bringing five guys to do that. Really? They could be as simple as they wanted. And then in Arizona, whatever the opposite of simple is, is the Arizona cardinals, do you think or just going all over the place? But I think that's a lot of Nicarollas. I think Jonathan Ganon, yeah, that there was like, I always describe it as like, there was a very healthy, creative friction between those two guys. I think Jonathan Ganon really trusted Nicarollas to be like, all right, this is your vision. I'm going to let you see this through, even if maybe this isn't how I would do it in a vacuum. But our personnel lensed us playing this way. So I think it'll be more complex and more aggressive than it was in Philly, but not nearly as wonky as it was in Arizona, in part because they don't have the horses and they have to be. I remember Jeff Hathley's first year here in 2024. We later learned that when he got to Green Bay, he thought he was just going to be able to rush for and generate pressure that way with Roshan Gary, Van Ness, you know, the inside guys of Carl Brooks to Vante Wyatt, Colby Wooden. I thought that too, by the way, because I thought that defensive line looked really good by the end of the 23 season, and then it never happened, they weren't. able to. So what halfly ended up doing is a bunch of these simulated pressures where they'd crowd seven guys up at the line of scrimmage and then they would drop a defensive end and quay walker, but send Edgering Cooper and Xavier McKinney. And they just have to get crazy with all these looks and replacement fire zones, whatever they wanted to call them because they couldn't just rush with a standard four. When you have Michael Parsons, you can because those guys who couldn't win their one-on-ones or couldn't win their double teams or whoever Sean Gary, you know, Devonte White, whoever else, maybe wasn't getting home as much as the Packers would like. They have one-on-ones all the time because you have two-three guys on Michael Parsons. We've seen so many exotic looks and pressures this camp and we talked to Mike a couple weeks ago. He was like, yeah, we're not going to see much of that come the regular season because we're just going to pair it down so much. But I think back to 2024 with Jeff Halfley and I was talking to Jordan Rodriguez about this when she was here recently. You're probably going to see two completely different past rushes, first five games and then beyond because you're going to see corners in the backfield. You're going to see Evan Williams coming through the slide. You're going to see, you know, Xavier McKinney in the backfield because you don't have Michael Parsons on the field unless Lucas Vannette, Lucas Vannette has had an incredible camp. Unless he becomes a true number one guy, and I think you have to get more creative. I think the other part that I'm really interested in is that I think the most talented player on the defense, the front seven, the most talented player on the front seven that is not that is not Michael Parsons is that you're in Cooper is that you're in Cooper 100% and so how do you weaponize Edger and Cooper as a past rusher in a world where Michael Parsons is not on the field to me becomes the most important question about the front seven before Mike gets back 100% I he's an all pro caliber player think he's in his third year. Now he's gotten I think one all pro vote the last couple years I might be wrong about that, but he's an incredible player. He's still I think 24, 25 years old. He's going to be one of the best linebackers in this league and then you pair him with a guy who I went to college with is Iyer Franklin and 10 years after I covered him and when he was a captain at Syracuse and I was a student reporter for the newspaper, he's my guess is about to be a captain for the Packers and just the edge and the life he's kind of injected into this defense. He was in all pro two years ago, not great last year, but if he can be even close to an all pro this year, like the linebacking core with Cooper and Zeyer Franklin easily is the unit of those three levels of defense I'm most confident in right now. Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think the the what's interesting to me is the part of the reason you can make the Zeyer Franklin trade is I think they felt good about their interior defensive line depth and the guys that they could run roll through there. That was something that came up today where they were like they we really like the depth that interior defensive line position. Not a lot of like big name guys, but I think there they feel like there's a lot of guys in that room. They can lean on even if there aren't a lot of household names as a part of it. Yeah. And we've seen six or seven different interior deadlines. It was possible to keep track today. There were so many guys writing down all the numbers on our notebook of all the guys who are starting and it's like six or seven different guys. And I think part of that is just trying to keep guys fresh, but it's also like they don't really have to want to why it's their best one, but you have Javan Hargrave who played for Gannon and Philly had 11 sacks for him a couple years ago. Not the same player now, obviously, but I think he can still give you something Carl Brooks, who's been a role player for this team the last couple years. Warren Brinson, a second year guy at a Georgia, who's had a fantastic camp, just got injured and practiced today. I don't know how long he'll be out, but he's been having a great camp. Jonathan Ford, who was a seventh round pick of these guys in 22, went to the Bears last year, then they picked him up and brought him back here. He's six, five, three, 38. He just gets in the way of people and he's been getting starters reps. And then a guy that none of your listeners will know or care about. There's a guy named Anthony Campbell, who's a second year player out of University of Miami. And he had one tackle last year in Miami while playing eight games. He was a bench player for the Miami Hurricanes. There was one stretch earlier in camp where he had four pass breakups batting stuff down at the line in three practices. And that's not all he does. He makes plays against the run. He made he had a vicious sack in the game the other night. He's getting reps with the starters. So you get this group could go six, seven deep just on the interior. And if it's just some of those guys can generate some past rush while staying fresh because of that rotation, maybe they can tread water without Micah. The last thing I'll ask you, we do this for every team in the division previews. We're starting the division previews tomorrow. So it's on my mind. I'm very curious about your answer to this. What is success for the 2026 green Bay Packers? NFC championship game at minimum. I think if if you have everyone healthy, last year they had the quote unquote excuse of having like four of their seven best players heard and out for the year. If you have everyone healthy craft, Wyatt, ZBB, loves healthy. You got to get to the NFC chain. It's put up a shut up time for Matt Laflore. I'm not saying that he's going to get fired if if they Peter out again and get the seven seed, but one of my buddies Bill Hubert and other beat writer, he has this saying it's not called NFC North title town. It's called title town because they're talking about super bowl titles. Yeah. This team hasn't even won the division since 2021. Like you have to win the division. You got to win multiple play off games. And I'm going to sound like a fan saying this, but I think this is how the fan base feels. This is the green Bay Packers. This isn't some rinky dink operation that accepts the seven seed and an early exit every year. You're not this young team with all these inexperienced players anymore. You just gave your head coach boatload of money to extend them when a lot of people thought you shouldn't. You have all the core pieces you need to be a super bowl team. It's put a per shot up time. So I think at minimum NFC championship game for a successful season. Well, you could make a I think very real argument for any single team in the NFC North pretty easily. And so I could easily make one for sure. So I think the good news is I can make a pretty easy argument for why the Packers grew in the NFC North. The bad news is I can make a very similar argument for why they want other teams in the NFC North. And I will say, um, I don't know when this airs, but I know five days from now. Five days from now. Okay. So Jonathan Ganon will have already had his joint practice against the team that just five. And week one is Jonathan Ganon, first Kyler Murray Packers Vikings. So I'm very interested to see if Ganon kind of knows which buttons to press to make Kyler Murray uncomfortable in Minnesota. I realize that today in talking to people here. And, uh, yes, it adds another little layer of intrigue to what that week one matchup is going to look like. As if it didn't have enough match nine men. Always great to see you, sir. Always appreciate the time. We'll do it again soon. Absolutely. Joining us now. It is one of our esteemed bears riders here at the athletic. It's Kevin Fishbait. How you doing, man? I'm good. We've got a lot of bears riders. Always have a strong athletic tradition at the lake front. We talk about this every single year, but the bear's media contingent is always ridiculous. I mean, just the sheer number of people covering that team every single day. And it's a bear's town. There's never any denying that when you see how many people are tasked full time with breathlessly covering every moment of this team. Do you want to do 25 minutes about a preseason and completion? Do you want to start there? I did, I did a very dumb thing in that I engaged on a social media app that's name changed in recent years because, you know, Dan, we are and I wrote about what I liked to tongue in cheekly call the incompletion. Because I do think that it was a really great opening to understanding the quarterback coach dynamic, but people were very angry about other takes on the incomplete pass. So we don't we don't have to get into it. I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting and I and I completely understand how you guys were framing it. And I think it's very silly that people got all up and arms about it knowing you and knowing your personality. I know you were making a joke about calling it that I it's funny that this is one of those moments where I kind of side with Caleb Williams. I think in that situation, I like to see him be aggressive. There are times where I feel like he doesn't let the like pull the trigger on those sorts of throws. And so I get where Ben Johnson's coming from. For those of you guys who don't know, there was an incompletion that he threw to call some level in the preseason game that became a whole thing because Ben afterwards was like, I think I'd go somewhere else with the ball. And so it just led to just a certain level of discourse. And it was an inaccurate pass. So that's also part of it. I also think the inaccuracy is partially driven by the fact that it's a really tough ball. Because if he tries to layer that over the linebacker, it gets it brings the safety into play. And so the trajectory he threw that with, I think is completely fine. And if I'm first in 20, take a chance, take a chance to preseason game. Let's figure out where the limits are. And so overall, I actually liked him making that choice in the moment, even if I think it's led to some consternation from a couple of different parties here. >> Yeah, not to mention, I think seven out of ten times, Colson Levin catches that pass. But again, not the best ball. But that's what Colson Levin can do is make kind of impressive catches. The other part of it, which the interesting thing I thought was, it showed you how analytical Ben Johnson can be. That it was the down and distance that bothered him. it was that it was first and 20 and it's like okay we don't want our aggressiveness to be here when it's first and 20 maybe first and 10 but you can see a little bit into his mind of like it's first and 20 I don't need you I don't need you doing that um but yeah like I think like if you're Kim Williams like if you're watching that you want him to take that shot at a guy like Loveland um yeah is that I thought it was really an interesting look into their dynamic and I got a chance to talk to press Taylor um this week and I love that he one of the things he said was essentially we are coaching Caleb really hard and he wants it he's welcoming it and like that's a whole thing this summer so like they are being so particular with things especially when it comes to ball placement and all and and where the read is and all that stuff because they trust that he wants that and you know ideally you see the fruits of that labor so let's talk about that because obviously last year the installment of the offense and just there was so much written and so much talked about the fact that those guys were trying to keep their heads up of water with everything they were throwing at them in the summer and you saw a process that I think could have been pretty predictable knowing that context on like August 25th the offense looked very uneven for the first four games they get to the buy and I think things really start to settle down over the final two thirds of the season as you've watched them this summer and they've obviously talked about this pretty openly just the fact that there's an increased level of I think Ben Johnson specifically said he didn't want to use the word comfort because he doesn't like the idea that guys would be comfortable but there's a familiarity right there there is an understanding of we have the baseline level stuff down what does step two of this look like what does step two and version two of this Ben Johnson Caleb Williams Bears offense look like so far to you. >> It's just cleaner it's just more concise it's it's sharper like you know every year since I've been covering the team I walk in a training camp and I say okay can the quarterback sustain a drive for crying out loud like in the quarterback just move the sticks like in a move the ball drill can they actually move the ball and last training camp you were there I mean it was it was bad and then you saw it as you said in the first few weeks the Cowboys game opened things up they start really hammering the run game after Vegas and we see what happens and this year and campus just been more methodical and you're seeing like he stayed in the pocket and he's just making just easy throws to love and to burden to Deandre Swift you know out in the flat to Colcomat like he's just it's Roma doons and I think it's how to really salad camp like he's just trusting his guys and taking his completions and you're just seeing the offense just looks smooth and it's not like doesn't mean it's been this explosive thing the defense can't stop it doesn't mean they look like the 2013 Broncos but it just it just looks like an NFL offense should look this time of year when you're when you automatically have an advantage in a training camp setting you should be able to complete passes at a pretty high rate. They're two different places I think you can land with this I think you can land in the good players go burr part of this where this thing's just going to go through the moon or there's so much underlying young explosive talent on this team the quarterback the tight end Luther burden in year two what the run game looks like I think there's the other side of it where we still need to see it. The fact that the offensive line feels a lot more unsettled last year without Dolman and now you you're replacing the center we still have a left tackle battle that will get into the quarterback still needs to be more consistent we can project him potentially doing that but if he doesn't this offense can't hit it's ceiling and so I want you to give me the case for this team becoming the sort of offense that Ben Johnson thinks they can be and I want to get I want to know what is still holding you back potentially in the case against that offense coming through fruition this year. >> I think Luther Burden and Colson level or maybe the two best players on the team in training camp like until Luther Burden got hurt like I mean he's back by the way we're recording this in the 27th he's back practicing so yeah he was easy on that right he was an individual drills on Wednesday so I think he's on track and it's not taking anything away from a dunesay who I think is also looked really good but like you have these two guys and and Robert like how many times do we have the conversation of the year to jump like that's just like oh I'd receive a rookie year full of season strength and conditioning and knows the offense he's going to take this leap so we do that with Burnett and Loveland because we saw what they did the last seven weeks of season but they actually looked apart so I think that the fact that those two guys looked so at times uncoverable you can see what that can do for the offense and again like because it's you're in the spring you're projecting then you watch it in the summer you're like okay like these guys this thing could it could work you on the flip side of that you know you you mentioned you mentioned offensive line and I think that like when the games start like in Cincinnati the joint practice wasn't it was really herky jerky it was a little bit more like training camp last year and Dexter Lawrence kind of blew up a lot of things that the Bears wanted to do and you just don't know when they faced these live defense look they get Brian Flores in week two and and he's very familiar to Caleb Williams and the things that he's gonna want Caleb to do and want to force him to do and I just don't I as you said there's still this unknown this is year three like they're Ryan Poles and set it himself last year like they still want to see what this thing can look like we all know the potential of everything but it just you just want to see it against the live defense um considering the offensive line situation considering all these coaches around the league are going to do everything in their power and that's like Caleb extend plays um and try to take that magician out of way from him so there's still there's still an unknown um I do kind of like I'd be curious you take like this whole idea of well the Bears can't win games the way they did last year it's like well sure like of course they also lost like four games in the final seconds um that were coin flip games that they probably could have won also like you can you can just you I just think you can take that so many ways like nobody's sitting here thinking that they're going to come back in the final minute eight times again um that's just a life I don't think that's like a big surprise um but I do get that like this team has to start faster and we got to see it I'm a big you know see him believe it like what does seem to look like in the first quarter because I was a huge problem last year yeah I think that I agree with the idea that they can't win games the way that they did last year because I think it's coming from two different spots one it's the late game come back stuff which isn't going to happen again this is not even if the overall record in one score games wasn't in ridiculous the way it was really team like the Broncos there was still enough late game luck and late game fortunate bounces that I'm not going to happen again to me the bigger thing is just to turn over differential that that's offensively and defensively like this team just didn't turn the ball over very often in the regular season and they took the ball away at just a ridiculous absurd rate and so I just think that you have to just be more consistent offensively where last year it was really driven by a lack of negative plays overall sacks interceptions and explosiveness can you just be a little bit more consistent offensively and if you can be does that offset some of those concerns about the turn over differential falling back to earth a little bit you not having those fortunate moments late in games like I absolutely think they could be as good of a team as they were last year and maybe with a slightly slightly worse record but we would feel so much better just about the down to down consistency on both sides of the ball the offense I think it's easy to make that case everyone settling in we can talk about the left tackle situation even if it's a slight if it's a downgrade from Dolman to Bradbury they've been pretty effusive about how much they've liked what they've seen from Garrett Bradbury over the course of this offseason I feel like that's a situation where even if you're taking a step back the offense can still function the way that you wanted to because the three pillars along the offensive line are still so good we can talk about offensive line health is a another overarching concern like they those guys are healthy last year in a way that Joe Jackson specifically just hasn't been that's something to keep in mind but if we can just assume average health goes for and they can piece together the left tackle spot and help that guy over the course of games the same way they did last year and you build in incremental improvement from the quarterback and all the young skill position talent I'm fine getting to a place where this could be a top five offense I probably pick them to be a top five offense the defense is where I just think it's so much harder to start building that case because the entire case started with okay the secondary is going to be healthier than it was a year ago it's not where where it's August 27th and it's already not like we're wondering who the second safety is going to be after that's the position you spent the most money on and the most resources on collectively in the entire offseason and then Kyle or Gordon like what's going to happen the entire I think optimistic argument for why the defense would be better was the idea that you'd have Kyle or Gordon the entire season you have real jail and Johnson and now you have two new safeties with range and speed well how many bricks out of that wall have already been pulled out before we even get to labor day weekend too many for me to sleep well. >> Yeah, I think back to a 49ers game last year and you kind of wonder like how many bears games this year are going to be like that where the offense was able to score just at will I mean that 49ers defense is obviously decimated but they couldn't stop Brock Purdy and then just came down to like team you know whoever gets the ball last Wednesday and They didn't have as many games like that as you would have thought considering the difference between the two sides of football, but now this year, maybe that's going to be how they have to win. Yeah. I think two things can be true when you look at the defense this summer, where it's really good that people are excited, including the Bears about their sixth round defensive tackle. But you'd like to hear about other guys that defense who are, you know, taking jumps and making leaps and taking the ball away to high rate. I do think before he's battled at injury last week, I think Tyrick Stevenson has had a really good camp. He's had a bunch of takeaways, contract year for him. You're kind of hoping that Jervin Dexter was going to have that kind of summer, also a contract year. I mean, again, Grady Jared's been healthy. You can't be how much can you bank on him? The Bears at Ben Johnson's been very effusive in his praise for Montez Sweat. Yeah, on Johnson's been solid, but you're right, I mean, like the Kobe Bryant injury is just brutal. There's no way around it. It's it's fucking brutal. And he like, you could just get this sense of how much they loved everything about him. The way he worked, the way he practiced, the way he talked, the fact that it was unbearable champion team. We were seeing him make plays in practice before the injury happened. So it's, yeah, and also he was supposed to be helping along your first round pick. And now you have a, now your first round pick is going to be your best safety. And he's still, that's, that's a lot to rely on. So yeah, I mean, the defense does not have any more answers other than Jordan Vanderbrik looks good. I think the front is just more equipped than it was last year at any point. And I think that's the argument that you could make is that Booker and Dio never played together the entire season last year. Before Booker, Booker was, Booker got back, Oh dang, but it was already hurt. And so your edge room now with those three guys just has more options than it did before. If you want to play Dio inside a little bit and you have Booker now is that third piece, like your edge room is better. And I think you can make a serious argument that if Vanderbrik is a real player, it's just a contributor immediately, your interior group is better too. And so the front should be better than it was last year. But what's the ceiling, even if that group is deeper? And does that ceiling chase you off of the current concerns you have about the state of the secondary? I think that's a different conversation. >> Right, like in June, you could have sat there and said, hey, if the defensive line is average, look what we have with Jalen Johnson type of season in Caledon, Kobe Bryant, Dylan Thiniman. You could have, you could have had that now, it's Dylan Thiniman came Lewis and maybe a fourth round rookie starting at Slot and Malik Muhammad who's, listen, a lot of the talent, like really intriguing skill set. But a rookie at Slot who didn't play there in college, you're taking a little bit of a leap there. >> That's the other part of this is that the Xavier Woods injury quietly becoming like really important because the whole point was, if you wanted to stick him a safety, you could put Cam Lewis at nickel and now you can't even do that. >> Right, right. That's the thing where I'm almost wondering if like, if almost like the Bears wants someone else to win the safety job so that they could put Cam Lewis at nickel, which is where he was playing before Kobe Bryant got hurt. And yeah, so now it's like, okay, now we need the defensive line to start going to be above average to help this downtrodden secondary and you're in your, and now you need Jalen Johnson play like an all pro. You need Tyrick Stevens in a play like somebody who wants to really cash in on this contract year. Like, you need Dylan Thiniman to play like he did in Oregon as a rookie. And that's just you're asking a lot of what ifs, a lot of very thin outcomes that you're banking on here on that side of the ball. >> And look, TJ Edwards had never been hurt before in his career until last year. But he got hurt twice last year. He started camp late because of another injury. He still hasn't been full go. And you're kind of thin at that position. Now that's a position you can be thin at. It's not like, it's okay. But I'll give you another positive for defense. I have been impressed by Devon Bush. I didn't know what to expect from the guy. And I do think that having number 12 is difficult. I think he would look better if his number was like 57, just because of his size. But the speed is real, but you watch him track down running backs and tight ends. I see why Dennis Allen really wanted him as part of this thing. >> I also thought DeMarco Jackson played well last year. If they have to rely on DeMarco Jackson, I don't think that's the thing that's going to make or break this. I'm much more worried about you digging into your secondary depth so much already. Again, before we're even into Labor Day weekend, it can lose this entire selling point. Is that he can be somebody that can plug a hole for you in a pinch if you need him to appoints over the season. It's not week one. He is a load bearing player within the defense, which is exactly the situation the bears are walking into. I guess it's worth asking, do we have any, I'm not even going to ask for clarity, I'm not mean to use that word. Do you have any sense of whether Kyle Gordon is going to play football at any point this season? >> No, no idea. I mean, I like to think it's good that he's there, he traveled to Cincinnati for the joint practice. I got to think that's a positive, because you're really angry. >> I can't believe that's what we're doing. >> Those are the breadcrumbs we're having to pick up at this point. >> Yeah, you look down at the sound like, oh, Kyle Gordon's here. He was healthy enough to get on an airplane, that's a good thing. But I always tell bears fans or radio hosts who ask me about it, I'm like, if you guys want to speculate that he's not going to play this year, he's given you no reason not to, you can just let your mind wander, because we just have no idea. And it's unfortunate that we can't get like, hey, this is what's going on, and this is why it's taking a while. It's just terse like no update, no information, he's out here. >> I think it speaks to a disconnect between what's going on with him and what's going on with your organization, and I think no one wants to make it worse. >> But it's really all that's happening. >> Yeah, and it's, I mean, what's extra unfortunate about it is the last time the bears played a football game, Kyle Gordon was probably played like the second or third best guy on that defense that night. You go back and watch the Rams game, he was everywhere. And you saw how Dennis Allen, who could use him, and it's like, oh yeah, that's why Ryan Poles gave him that contract when he's healthy, puts his hair on fire, and he's a blitz already. He's a wonder. Yeah, you can really use him well, and yeah, like you just, you have no idea what that's going to look like. >> Let's go back to the offense, because I'm just curious how you think about the left tackle rotating cast of characters right now, and what it looks like. Here's, I'll ask you two things. What do you think it looks like in week one, and what do you think it looks like in week four? >> It could be the exact same thing that happened last year. It could be Braxton Jones in week one, and then for whatever, last year, and he's talked about it, he was not playing his well in the second half of the games. And then you've got Theo Benedict, who the coach is like a lot for his run blocking. He bring him in, and then one of Nazi trapellers ready to go, then it's Aussie. It could be a very similar track to last year, the only difference is this time, as he's coming off an injury as opposed to last year, you were just waiting until he gave the coach's confidence that they could put him in there. So it could be like that. >> It's a realistic timeline for him to play. >> Gosh, I mean, it wasn't realistic for him to practice all summer. So I don't know, like I feel like he's changed the paradigm of any kind of timeline you're talking about because he's already practicing and impads. Now he hasn't done any teamwork as of August 27th. Maybe that changes a couple of hours at joint practice, I don't know, but because this has been such a ridiculous recovery, could he be ready in the first month, I can't say no. I mean, I remember Petara Tendon, that's a year, usually. >> Just be a year plus. He used to be into the second season that he'd start regaining actual quality of play. And I guess that's the question, just because he's out there, does it mean that he's their best option, I guess he's going to be ready to play at a level that makes you comfortable about putting him out there, even if he's back practicing. That's an impossible question to answer. I just wonder how much they see him as the actual firm answer to the position at some point this year. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that he played well last year, but he was still the fifth best offensive. I mean, you and I had this exact conversation last summer, whichever referred to a lot, which is, it's okay to be the fifth best. That's why this isn't like the Jamarcus Web days of Chicago Bears, where you're so concerned about left tackle because you don't have a whole lot of other great answers along the offensive line. So it heightens the left tackle problem. Now, that guy is playing extra-jotuny and you do have Cole Komet, who's a very solid veteran to help out. You got a loved one. So you have other answers. I just, the only curiosity I have is like, I was a little surprised the Bears never put Theo Bennett at left tackle until like a week ago, when they were like realized like, oh, we have to because these other guys just aren't doing it for us. >> I mean, that's probably the reason, right, is that they are really banking on the fact that some combination of Braxton or Jed Wills would get them there, and maybe they are feeling a little bit less comfortable. confident about that after seeing it for a month. >> Right, and so yeah, so I do get it and then they put Theo there and it's not, it's fine. But like I just, here's the dream scenario for the Bears. Braxton Jones starts 17 games for you and is solid. And just what Braxton Jones was in 2022, 2023, where he's like, I like to call him a Charles Leno Lite. Like you just, you know what you're getting from him? Yeah, he's not going to be an all pro, but he's fine. And then he goes and gets a big contract somewhere. You got a cop pick. And Ozzy Jopillo is ready to go at the start of next season. Like that to me would be the ideal situation. But I think Braxton's little, whatever that injury was, sent him back a week and I'm very curious to see how he looks in this final week because if he can gain that confidence back, maybe everybody feels better about him being out there for a week one. But if Ozzy's just sitting there ready to go, you know, that's somebody that this obviously this coach and staff really likes him. On a more granular level, I see this being a team that plays probably more 12 personnel than any team in the league, just based on who their best 11 are and the ways that you can use level. And I assume we're going to see a decent amount of rouse because that to me feels like a more dangerous group than even your 11's going to be if Khalifa and even today walker is that third receiver. So that's stuff to me, I think already kind of tracks, I just assume that's how they're going to play. Is there anything about that that you think is wrong or a misguided assumption? >> No, no, I mean, we got the brief glimpse of Rouseon Cincinnati at a really nice catcher run. I mean, like, smart as all get out, can block, this is what Ben Johnson wants to do. You saw what the Rams did to the best defense in football. Super Bowl champion Seattle Seahawks. And you're going to start seeing this. Now it's just one trend, we'll see what the next trend is in five years. So this is what Ben Johnson's always wanted, he was a tight ends coach. So I like that. And also, I know this wasn't a part of your question, but I do want to throw a shout out or a mention of Deandra Swift is very hard to evaluate running backs in most training camps. Ben Johnson's training camp makes it a little bit easier because of how physical it is. Swift is looks really good. He has had some really impressive runs that make you think, you almost forget he's in a contract here because of his position. Think about like, what are they going to do about Deandra Swift, like well, it's running back doesn't matter. But he's looked very strong this summer. >> And then Menungai, what's the timeline on that, do you have any sense? >> Yeah, that came out as kind of week to week. So my guess would be, he'd be ready for the start of the regular season, ideally. And there's a drop off there too. You need him to be your number two. >> Absolutely. They don't have a number three. I mean, who won't even be at this point? >> I mean, it's year four of Rochon Johnson, I think everybody. And there's a Rochon's got more carries as precies than I think he's ever got. And he's finally staying healthy. So Vann Ahmed has had the better runs in camp and in the precies. But Rochon Johnson is your dynamite special teams guy. And Ahmed hasn't really done that very much in his career. So do they keep four, because Menungai, if Menungai is not fully healthy, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, this is sort of the Menungai are your two running backs. There shouldn't necessarily be a third guy, ideally, taking too many carries. >> Anything else we should know from somebody who's been there every day. That the Swift thing is a great example. Anything else that's just like, I, this is going to be one of the lasting images I have of 2026 bears trading camp that a national audience should know more about. >> I've not mentioned Jordan Van den Berg. >> I think we, we kind of alluded to that, but I think that's probably it, right? >> I mean, he's, yeah, I mean, like someone complained to me about writing about him like he's earned it. He's legitimately flashed. I'll know one more thing about, you know, every bear's practice ends with a specific situation. You know, they'll throw something on the clock, you know, a minute 12 seconds balls at the 32, you've got one time out. And those were just a nightmare last year. Last summer, like it was for the offense, for the most part. And seeing the different ways these guys and, and, you know, it pays to have the experience last year in all those fourth quarter games. And I do think, you know, to back to the start of our conversation about the quarterback, like you're seeing him operate those at a much higher clip they did last summer. And I'm sure again, it probably helps that he did it in the regular season in one games that way. But yeah, like that's like a specific part of practice, right? I think the bears have looked a lot better than they have in past years. We could do this for three hours. I could ask you about every single player on the roster, because I probably have questions about every single one. We won't do that. Kevin Fishbane always appreciate the time, sir. Feels fitting that we wrapped up this entire series with the Chicago Bears, because that's what I'll probably be thinking most about over the two weeks between now and the start of the regular season. We'll talk to you soon, bud. >> All right, take care. [MUSIC] >> All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Nick. Thank you to Jesse. Thank you to Matt. Thank you to Kevin, love doing these every single year, 20 overall beat rider conversations with people that are there every single day watching practice. That combined with the division previews that we're doing, feel like, got a lot of just deep dives on every single one of these teams. So I appreciate you guys listening to these. We always get good feedback about them. And I do think that here at the Athletic it is something we are in uniquely positioned to do. My favorite things we get to do every single summer, we will do these as long as they let me keep traveling to training camps every year. So appreciate everyone who tuned into these over the last month or so. That's all we got. We will talk to you on Monday. [MUSIC]