We're designed for relationship

Bam with her change log is provided by FASTA, learn more at FASTA.com. We move fast and fix things here at Change Log because of roll bar. Check them out at rollbar.com. And we're hosted on Linode Cloud servers at the Linode.com/Change Log. [MUSIC] This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute a doctor-patient relationship. If you have specific questions or concerns, we encourage you to consult a health professional in your local area. [MUSIC] From Change Log Media, this is Brain Science, a podcast for the curious. We're exploring the inner workings of the human brain to understand behavior change, have the formation, mental health, and what it means to be human. It's brain science applied, not just how does the brain work, but how do we probably know about the brain to transform our lives? I'm Adam Stacoviac, and I'm Dr. Mary L. Reast. [MUSIC] My husband has often said as we parents more of the challenges that come along with that. And so at one point in time, he used to say seven or 47 because obviously he was 40 when we had our son that it didn't matter what age you are. We still struggled with relationship and trying to figure out how to live beside people who make choices we wouldn't make or do things that we wouldn't consider doing. And I think in life, we are just apt to struggle with relationships because not everybody's like us. And we don't always know all of ourselves either. Some of the time when I talk with patients about our self or this notion of ourselves, I like to think of it sort of like a gemstone in that there's different facets depending on how it's cut, right? And so when the light hits it, different aspects or sides of our self show up or are seen. And sometimes throughout development, that goes a bit awry. And so we end up with more like fragmented gemstones, like where we might feel like I'm not aware of this part of myself when I'm in this situation or this relationship, but I'm more cognizant or aware of it in this one over here. But all of that being said, we're always going to be able to navigate our relationships with others more adaptively or more effectively when we figure out how to deal with ourselves. Would you agree? I feel like learning more about yourself is about life experiences. Kind of like if you go on a camping trip, for example, in the middle of the woods and you have your first overnight in say the Texas heat, which you know what you do that camping in Texas in the summer, you'll probably die. But let's just say you do that, right? You might learn some things about yourself. So it's like through life experiences, you begin to discover your facets. Yeah, yes. So I like to think of that in terms of feedback. And so we can look at the feedback loop as conditioning and go, was it positive? Is it something I want to do more of or was it negative? And like, whoo, that did not pay. I do not think I'll do that again. Hence, camping in Texas in the summer. Right? Yeah, don't do that. Right. So what is conditioning then? Conditioning is this notion of really how we learn. And so you might hear people talk about it in terms of punishment or reinforcements. And basically that just means sort of do I want a behavior to occur more frequently or do I want a behavior to occur less frequently? Like I could say, I would prefer that my child throws a tantrum less frequently. And so I'm going to condition them in a certain way. IE give them feedback that says this is not what we do in this setting or here's a different way that you can navigate that emotion. And it doesn't look like throwing yourself on the floor in the middle of the grocery store with adults, you know, conditioning might look like sort of that positive feeling because feelings are always a part two of the feedback process. I can have an interaction with a person or go have an experience that was very favorable like camping or traveling to a certain place like I think a lot of families and individuals will tend to repeat a certain vacation place or idea because it's paid a positive emotional response when they do it. It's like those studies you hear about where the animal could be a rat could be a monk, you're something like that where they're sort of testing them. I saw this thing recently with on this show on YouTube, I forget what it's called. I think it's called Mindfield and it was about these apes that were had really amazing short-term memory where they could see numbers on the screen like one through 13 all scattered about the screen just see it for half a second and it would go away and they can tap everywhere the number was. And it's almost like, you know, those studies where you see those kinds of things happen or where you see a rat go to get a drink of water but get shocked instead and say, "Well, I'm never going back to that water trough again." Is it kind of like that? Like this feedback loop of like good things or bad things happen and so therefore you learn to adapt or relate? Yeah, I mean so bearing in mind that again we are designed to feel that our feelings also play a fundamental role in the conditioning process. So that if I have an experience that creates positive feelings that part of my brain is going to consolidate that experience and sort of bank that to remember. So it works both ways, right? If I have a negative experience say like for whatever reason no matter what I do I frequently burn myself on the stove when I'm cooking or the oven. And so I might be like, "Dude, I'm out. I am never, I'm just not going to cook. I'm not going to use the stove because it doesn't pay." It hurts. But you know, that's my my feedback loop and so if I just lived more in the emotional space of that experience I might be up to be like, "I don't cook" and I would defer that responsibility to my husband or I would live by restaurant I suppose. So whenever we're in relationship, I mean this is another thing that I think is super interesting is because feelings are involved that means empathy is also involved, right? Because when I empathize with another person what it is is that I actually have a sense of understanding of their experience from their perspective, not like my perspective of their perspective. Like I can look in and say like, you know that somebody might not be struggling with math or somebody might not have a hard time with exercise because well, I don't. But that doesn't mean that's true for all people. And so when I'm in relationship with other people, it fares a lot better when I can practice sort of setting my my own perspective aside and being willing to move or maneuver that I could see their experience through their lens. Yeah. I think it's important to to remind those listening to this like why like, severely why relationships truly matter to us. And that's because part of who we are is because of part of our relationships that are mine and who we think we are is formed based on these interpersonal relationships whether we are whether they're strong whether they're weak, they all form and inform whom we are. Yeah. Connection is key when it comes to being human. I mean, so when I talk about the brain sort of thinking of it in terms of three brains in one because the different structures in our brain are synonymous with or similar to other animals like reptiles, mammals, and then what sets us apart is more of the neocortex. Well, that middle brain, which is our mammalian brain, is really what is connected to for lack of a better word that our ability to be in relationship with others because mammals all feed their young with milk, right? So we know ironically, and this is research I think is fascinating, that when mothers breastfeed that actually brain waves between mother and infant are identical. Really? Yeah. Is that like just humans too or do you mean any mammal that feeds their young with milk? No, I don't know that it's for this was just done with humans. So I can't speak to other other mammals, but for humans, which is fascinating because oxytocin is a neurochemical that is sort of like our stress reducing positive emotion giving neurochemical, which is why it's super adaptive for moms when they're feeding their babies to be able to have more of that experience of calm, but that that is also our attachment binding hormone. And so it gets released in mom's brain and it calms not only mother, but child as well. Wow. So how does that plan into relationships? Then obviously, you know, a child who's been in the womb for, you know, potentially nine months or more depending upon the pregnancy that they come out, they're in a whole new foreign world, right? That's where they connect with their parent. Yes, precisely. So there's a lot more talk about around and research on that skin to skin contact with mother and infant, immediate or primary caregiver. Any person, human, human being, right? Immediately following birth because of the power of that attachment and how that actually helps the infant immediately. Because I mean, can you imagine how traumatic it might be to be in utero for nine-ish months or so and then be separated? And you went from like no space and cramped and tight to huge vast space and I can move and not having an awareness of an infant, not having the awareness that their arms and legs are necessarily tethered to them, but just feeling that openness and emptiness. So to have another human, warm blooded human that they can connect to actually is incredibly soothing. And so I think about this with adults like when we have someone we care about who is ill and possibly in the hospital that I would say where do you want to be? Right next to them. Exactly. And so when we experience pain or hardship like we are apt to look for the connection, it doesn't mean that we get to opt out of the pain, but just knowing that we don't have to endure it all alone is critical. What about how relationships play into this notion of neuroplasticity, being able to reform or reshape parts of your brain? Well, it's interesting that the research talks about that the first year of life and some will say the first couple of years of life tends to be more right brain development for infants, which is ironically more of the sort of emotional side of our brain. We sort of say and always when we talk about the brain, we talk in generalities as well as sort of what we know as of now that language is more left brain, while there's some right language function, it tends to be more left brain function and sort of emotions, relationships more right brain. And so when we talk about neuroplasticity, there's a way in which having another human with you actually facilitates more of the growth of those neural networks for infants and early toddlers. Well, I've been doing a little research, not a ton, so I'm not vested or really up on this research, but there's also talks about we've talked about putting our little one before you've mentioned that and this prefrontal cortex not even being fully formed until say you're mid-twenties. So when we say we're dealing with a three-nature right now, not a teenager, a three-nature, that is three, but thinks he's 13 or 14 or whatever number might be. So we have to, even when you go back to relationships and empathy, realize that there are moments in people's lives up until the age of 25 where they may not have a fully developed functioning brain. Sure, they've got the brains all there, but there's parts that are still in formation. Right. Yeah, this is why even right now with kids in sports, there's so much research around brain injury. Oh really? And sort of well, like protecting the younger brains. Right? So like my son at his age for soccer, like they're not allowed to do headers because the brain is still developing and it's just more vulnerable to injury. So we just want to be protective of that. When it comes to the brains, we want to have other people sort of, as a parent, we're sort of acting as the frontal lobe for our kids. Right. Yeah. Good point. I like that. A lot actually. Yeah. So I think about it like scaffolding that as our kids grow and it doesn't matter. Like I just always want people to have this sense of hope and optimism around like, look, it's not over if you didn't get it in childhood or it didn't fully grow. Like neuroplasticity is one of the most amazing and hopeful things because we can continue to build this and grow all throughout our lives. And so having another person participate in the development of our own mind, it's sort of helping build neural networks that say, hey, I totally understand that you're upset as a three-nager because you did not get ice cream and you think your world is now ending. But to actually, you can still empathize, but that doesn't mean you necessarily give them that desire. Right? Because I don't want them to be conditioned, I.e. I don't want them to have the perpetual feedback that when they're upset that they just get to have the ice cream that they want. Right. Let's also say we're using children as an example here because for the audience to empathize with us, that's our breeding ground for research, basically. I can give an example where my son, you know, he just, I can't recall the exact scenario, but there was a moment when I was like, to my wife, I said, hey, it's not that he's misbehaving because we were both sort of like in this crazy mood with him. And he wasn't behaving. And I was like, you know what, it's not that he's misbehaving. It's just that he can't right now. He's just too far gone. He's too tired. He's too exhausted. He's overstimulated. And his brain is just not developed enough to really get that we're asking them to behave. And design and expecting them to, but he's just not capable. So that moment, we both sort of just curled into ourselves and just cuddled him and just was just loving to him rather than like, why can't you get this? Come on, three-natured do this. You know what I mean? Like, you know, so our breeding ground and research is our children. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I, in my line of work, I mean, I will see the people where this sense of attachment and connection and feedback loop didn't go so well. And so they've learned, I always say it's sort of like they Jerry Rink things. Like they learned how to best function in their lives as well as they could. But we, we know this whenever we Jerry Rink something and don't actually fix it the way it was supposed to be, what happens? It breaks down. I like to ear more with that too for future habit formation and breaking conversations will have around like the whole, you know, the cue, the response, the reward, et cetera, because that's kind of like it reminds me of like habits evenly, this short circling, this Jerry Rink as you're mentioning. It's almost like you're, you're making your own path to like a better connection or a learn behavior, whatever you want to call it. That's not exactly, you know, good long term. No, no. In fact, so part of how we've developed this awareness of attachment and connection actually came out of research with, you know, nonverbal kiddos like early age. I want to say 18 and 18 month ish. And what they did was they had caregivers, even these kids tried to engage with just like facial expression because there's a way empathy really involves facial expression. We'll talk about this too at other points. With the role of mirror neurons and how they're connected to empathy. So it makes sense. We have these neurons in our brain that help us sort of see things empathize with other people. And so with young children, we do that a lot in terms of our facial expression. So if you notice like a kid's crying or upset that it won't just be our tone of voice, that's compassionate, but we will actually look them in the eye and contort our face to be empathetic or sensitive to them. And so what these kiddos would do is if what they instructed the people interfacing with these kids to do is to be flat and not actually provide any visual or verbal cues of engagement with the child. And what would happen is that their level of distress would ratchet up and ratchet up and ratchet up until they stop crying because they realized they weren't going to get a response. Wow. I think a lot of times I don't know about you, but my children have done things just to get a response. Yeah. Right. And so if we can look at relationships and how we function in our world through this lens of conditioning and go, what was reinforced? What feedback did we get when we were upset? Did our parents comfort us? Did they just hold us? Which power of touch, I cannot attest to enough that when we can hold hands embrace 20 second hugs actually reduce our level of stress. They have a physiological impact. So when you see somebody who's really hurting, you're like, just give me a hug. Yeah. Right. Because you have arms wrapped around you. Somebody else warms. You know, some things obviously happening in your brain around serotonin levels and different stuff being increased to whatever to provide that relaxation. And all these things that sort of like give our ourselves indications that were safe. Correct. And so it reinforces that like, I'm not alone and that I have a team. I have a group of people who I can go to as resources that will help ease whatever pain I'm in. It doesn't mean that I totally feel all better. And now I can just go do whatever. And I'm not sad, hurt or angry. Like I think of in grief. But it sort of helps modulate it and just like carries the burden. So when you're an individual, right? Like some people, we talked about conditioning when they're conditioned to retract, conditioned to isolate themselves from others. In the end, they're just trying to, they're trying to cope with whatever the issue might be, but they're also hurting themselves because. Individuals in nature just aren't normal. We're designed to feel designed to relate designed to have relationships And there's there's interaction in that, you know what I'm trying to really get at is is that for those who think Oh, you know what I'm an individual. I got it. I don't anybody right. I don't need your help I don't need feedback loop from anybody. I'm I'm cool my own in the end You may in the moment you may actually Get by correct, but in the long term. What's the effect? Right. I mean think of that Sort of like playing defense that that's actually more defensive than an offensive move Because we are fundamentally designed to be connected and so thinking about it back You know when we didn't have the resources we have today that we can just go down the street or other people are always around us It was much more tribal right and so if I didn't have my tribe like literally I was far more vulnerable to being killed right That's true Right well, and so we know the role that social connection plays because I don't know if you've looked around but we don't have orphanages for infants anymore Like we once upon a time did yeah and That in part is due to the fact that if babies were not tended to if they didn't have that social connection and relationship that they didn't survive Wow Yeah, and I mean you don't think anything of the fact that actual punishments in prison are social isolation We wouldn't use that if it didn't have a reason that it was actually offensive To our brain and and I would contend really like our soul our fundamental Humanity with the pain of it though. How does the pain come in though like if it if it if it's about Conditioning some illicit in the prison scenario, you know like we're isolation or you know removing them from You know the social gatherings and isolating themselves if that ultimately like hurts them in what what's the process of that pain Does it begin in the brain is it begin you know sort of like the you know physical parts of yourselves like where does the pain Begin or form well This is what is I think super fascinating and that is that the research has shown That the physical pain centers of our brain actually light up When we are rejected socially really yeah So this is if you get punched in the face and got rejected same. Yep. Wow So it doesn't stay there It's just sort of like that part of the brain gets lit initially and then you experience more emotional pain And I think we can talk to this Concept even later in understanding more about how pain works in the overlap between even physical pain and emotional pain Because I would always say physical pain most often is localized like I can say I hurt my knee or my elbows hurting or my neck or back Because I can localize where that's coming from But emotional pain and part of what it makes why it's so challenging to figure out ways to navigate emotional pain is because it's diffuse It's blob like There isn't a place I can say oh this is exactly where it hurts So you get in an argument with your spouse or you have an interaction with a friend Or whatever or you're left out of the group everybody else is doing their thing and you were the only one not invited like It literally hurts physically But then you're just sort of stuck unless you develop coping skills or strategies To navigate your way out in order to feel differently and I like to think of these things when we talk about relationship and challenges that we encounter is that people are unskilled They just haven't learned other skills that work better So if like I've only ever learned how to play defense I'm probably not going to be the best offensive player period And that doesn't mean I can't be it just means I then have to practice playing offense IE looking at the desires that I have not simply trying to stay in self-protection mode So that I'm always safe Because bear in mind our brains are always designed to keep us alive. That's their primary job Stay alive Yep, I love that I know how do I not die today? And so when we encounter pain it can be challenging because remember the pain sent or not the pain But the emotional center of the brain is more that the million brain So if you think of mammals cats and dogs, right? They don't know it day of the week it is They don't have language right Right so when we feel we can sort of get lost in the ambiguity of The emotion and not be able to orient to other things that help us remember like Oh yeah, my spouse. I actually like them right right They're on my team. They're not actively trying to assault me right now Although my brain wants to tell me that they are right right right because it legitimately hurts Let's summarize the importance of relationships then so obviously they're good for feedback loops We very lightly touched on the fact that relationships form our own personal mind on who we think we are They're a learned experience this conditioning process. It's also required if not you'll Whether and die to some some degree whether it's literal literal physical Um, right and what are some more summaries for relationships and the importance I would say without them we are apt to struggle more We know the Benefits that relationships have and that especially when we look at the five people that we tend to surround surround ourselves The most with I mean, I think about this as it relates to habits choices. We make purchases all of the ways we do our life because When you think about the influence of your relationships, you know, I think of it like I don't believe anybody who has struggled with addiction wakes up and is like I think today's going to be an awesome day to be an addict like that sounds fun But rather they're struggling they're in pain and it seems to be the people that they've surrounded themselves with say hey Try this it worked for me. I want to be very intentional about the people that I surround myself with If you think about even possessions that you Value in your life. Do you treat them differently because you value them like do you care if you get a new car versus like you know A 1985 Pinto. I don't even know if they make Pinto's back there, but Right Do you treat those cars differently? I would say yeah Right and so it is I would contend that that when we value The relationships we have with other people It changes the choices that we make and sort of the way we allow them to Effect us right because I'm not going to just let I'm not going to park next to anything or drive my car anyway If I feel like it's a really special or I spent a lot of money on it And so in this way if I can go look I as a human being matter Not Relative to any other person, but simply because I'm fundamentally human And I know that being human means being embedded in relationship Then I want to be somewhat intentional if not very intentional about who I surround myself with and recognizing The way in which I allow those people to influence me the decisions I make because most of the time we Will ask our friends and the people that we value what their feedback is about major life choices, right? Yeah, it's true phone friend and so I Exactly, it's a lifeline And that that actually is super adaptive and helps us to not just survive but really thrive and When you're vested in growth, I think that you always want to level up I wouldn't even add one more to that which is just a different side of what you said Which was also the responsibility you have if others have that influence on you Recognize your responsibility in the influence you have on others to share to share All right, thank you for tuning into this episode of brain science if you haven't yet Please do know something's journey. We have so much to explore Subscribe to this podcast at changelaw.com/brain-science We're on Apple podcast. We're on Spotify. We're on overcast and anywhere else you can get podcasts Follow us on Twitter. We're at brain science FM You can also do in our slack community It's free to join talk about all things brain science with me Mary L in the rest of the community And if you have topics or suggestions for the show you want to hear them email us editors at changelaw.com Huge thanks to our partners fastly roll bar and linode also thanks to break master cylinder for making all of our beats And last but not least if you want to hear more shows like this subscribe to our master feed to get all of our podcasts Had to change all that comps last master or go into your podcast app and search for changelaw master You'll find it. It's one feed to rule the mall get all of our shows plus some extras that only hit the master feed Thanks again for listening. We'll see you again soon