We’re back with Itoje, Russell & Janse van Rensburg!

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Cadillac v-series, distinctive luxury performance, engineered to thrill, discover the v-series lineup at Cadillac.com. Right, Robby New Weekly, 1st September, 2026. That's low energy, CJ. We've been sure the scene where we first got here today, he was flying. He is no, it's on the dome. And it's a set, it's the set, it's the set, it's the set of things halfway out of the dome. He was flying this morning, couldn't shoot him up. And it's a second, it's a second, it's a set of September. Thank you, it was nice, John. We've been off the clock for two months and I, welcome back to Rugby New Weekly. He's not enough, he's not enough. Oh, dude, okay, as you may have heard, everyone is here, don't care. Hugo Monia, Chris Ashton, spirits from the sky from some people. I reckon we're going to be down generously because it's a very exciting time. New seasons around the corner. Some cracking rugby's taking place, we're talking about it in a sec. We've got some mega guests on the way, none of them. Finn Russell, Mara Toget and Bernard Janty Van Rensberg. You're going to Scarper before we speak to Van Rensberg, aren't you, Danny? No, I'll have a look at him if you want. I think you're going to look at him. I think you're going to go, are actually Scarpering. The main Ashley, I've got these interviews to do. I think Hugo, we could be podding now for a quite a long period. When you think of what is coming up over the next 12 months plus. Loads, to start the domestic rugby in the Northern Hemisphere, then you've got the Nations Championship finals weekend. We're here at the Allianz Stadium. That's going to be unbelievable. Then you've got the Six Nations, the finishing of all the domestic leagues, all the way into the women's lines, then a rugby rockup. And in probably August, September, World Cup, warm ups. So I can't see when we're taking anything off until pretty much two or three days. I've learnt a lot from you in the last 10 years. The one thing I've also learnt from you is you and Macula have been able to time the weekend off here, all the year. You'll disappear after the Nations Championship, 100%. Nice, that a two-night mate. It's not easily done anymore, is it? I could disappear with them, could I? I mean, with Rachel as well, I'm going to start. I've said that, I've said that. Okay, exactly, you're going to disappear. Yeah, I know he's got kids, we can't disappear. Whatever, we're going to do a lot of plotting. We've got some huge guests coming up in this episode. We've got special episodes coming up over the next few weeks, building up to the start of the domestic scene. So it's all happening. But it's kind of a back-to-school feel. And I guess all you guys are quite happy to see schools reopening. I am counting the hours down to my kids go back to school. I've had a brilliant summer. But I'm ready for them to go and have some struggles. To go into the medication. Yeah, and it is new fresh beginnings. As we sit here out at Stady, we're looking out on the pitch. The pitch is what? Is that a layer of sand they've got down there first? Who's got most people's gardens across the summer? That's what it does. But in what a lot of sand we've got. A couple of months time, that's going to be the most beautiful green grass you've ever seen. And rugby is well and truly back. And what a season we've got, prems to start with. There's a hustle and a bustle downstairs. People are getting excited and what we're two or three weeks away. Got what? But what has been happening the last few weeks? It feels like the eyes of the rugby world have been on. What's happening in this rugby squares rivalry series? You think yet, rugby's had a quiet period in between the nation's championship, but then when this series started, it's kind of. I think it's gripped a lot of rugby fans who maybe prioritise the international game as a lot of rugby union fans do. And they've been watching two of the best teams in the world. If not the two best dudes go at it. What we're talking, when's the 2nd of September and 3rd test on Saturday with the two epic showdowns, aren't we? I was actually thinking about this. There was a couple of reflections I had like, what's Dave Renny doing in Japan? Respectfully. We know they're developing nation and lots of really, really good coaches of like sharp and their tools down there. But Dave Renny's in charge of the All Blacks, that beat the South Africa in the first test like, wow. So I'm glad to see him back at the top table of international rugby. And secondly, is there another sport on the planet that would actually curate a series like this? This is like Alcaraz and Sinner, just saying, should we just have like a one off just like. Why just sack the US opening? Yeah, just sack it off. Should we just go ahead to five times in 10 days? Yeah, like, should Argentina against Spain? Should they just have it off and just like a three match series? It's. I've watched that. You would watch that. And that's why people are gripped by this because it's brilliant. You've got the number one and a number two team who've both actually been number one of the world rankings over the last couple of weeks. It's been, it's been compelling view. I think to add to that as well, just New Zealand, our back. We talked about it before the end. That was your take away from the nation. That was my take away. It was their back. And we said, I think they'll, they'll get a win. Maybe even two in this series. They've got the first one, which is huge. So Africa abounds back. But there's not a clear favorite for me going into test three. It's the box, isn't it? It is the box, but it was the box two weeks ago. Last time I tried them and they lost. But for me, the biggest take away is, I think New Zealand, our back. And they've still got Richie Moonga still coming in. Why have they changed so quickly, think? It's that can't be as simple as a coach change, can it? I think probably maybe a bit of a mindset shift. It's quite easy to shift. Apparently was a good, like, culture coach, but maybe not a brilliant technical coach. Clearly, yeah. And Dave Renny's, we know he's a brilliant technical coach. And I think it's probably easier to get people into camp to manage the cultural side of it, especially a country with the rich history that the all blacks have. So all you need is, when I say all you need, it's hard to do that because you're looking for the very best, to coach the very best. But if you can get a great technical coach, then you see that. Because both of you called it after the first week in the nation chamber. I wasn't convinced that you clearly could see the structures, the systems, and how they want to play. Because it's been no different to what we've seen in the last couple of weeks. They've got people on all blacks DNA, haven't they? They've gone big on what makes the all blacks, the all blacks, which is ball movement. And that's what I've loved about this series, The Clash of Styles. You even have scored nine tries across the two tests with no basics. They've not really, their scrum has been, have had some bits, but on the whole, it's been overpowered. They're line out, gone to pot. Air release after all over them. They can't catch a restart. And they've scored nine tries in two games. Because their ability to strike in sevens from distance is like the all blacks team of old. And then you'd look in South Africa who we know can score tries. We know can play some rugby, but it's all based on fundamentals, isn't it? Set piece, kicking game, defense, restart. So the Clash of Styles for me has been the most special thing about this series. Because two teams know exactly what they are and who they are. And they're just going out there and trying to do it. What does it mean when Raziax like that? Does that mean so they're thicker under pressure? What did you make of all that then? So all three of you, what? We did it in the Lions when they're under pressure. You got them over. Well, weren't you clear then? You weren't real and you can distracted the whole. But he's not got a new clean and press conferences here. In fact, Dave Rene wound him up with the scrum stuff. But it's the shenanigans around the team selection, where he names a team on Monday, changes it, and then he can't do that with his front row, ultimately. And I've asked you what you think about it. So I'll hand it over. But he can't do what he did with his front row, can he? You can. The problem with McCarty. He always knows what he's doing. He knows he looks at the tour agreement. Oh, yeah, there's the grey area. But who's that? To do that based on-- He finds all these grey areas for-- That's the real genius. No, Jurgis, just Raziax. My general, I've been sat in so many meetings with Raziax, and you chat to him. So when you talk about laws this and that, and we're talking about tweaking this law, and I'm not saying just Raziax, but you're chatting to international coaches who are part of the process to amend in a law that they're already telling you how they can manufacture a loophole within the brand new law, which we know is then going to have to be amended in 18 months. Let's do a member today. We're talking openly talking about it. So when Raziax, when you say he can't do that, I'm like, Raziax would do anything within the constraints of the law. He can't be doing that alone. I'm the guy must bring him like 12, and he goes, no, we can't do that. Yeah, and the law allows him to do it. So he can always fall upon, well, I can. Like, what did I do wrong? And people could talk about ethics and more and all the rest of it. But according to the law, he can do a-- He's obviously not to talk agreement and gone, oh, we've agreed to name R23. Well, he signed this talk agreement because last year, in Africa, when they took part in the November series, they didn't sign the talk. They didn't sign it. So they were beholden to no one. I mean, someone's got to get it. Like, I get-- because I've asked Wild Rugby about this, they said, can they do what they've done with changing a team or naming two per position? And then Colby almost coming back in when he's been ruled out on the Friday, fine, make all the changes pre Thursday. But if there's a 48 hour window, which is mandated by nearly every competition or all competitions, the bit for me is looking at the conditions, I mean, there's a ref change in the week, so that's come into his thinking no doubt. But if you look at the conditions, how many coaches that you guys have played under, have you picked a fly-off of rainy conditions, it's beautifully sunny and you go, "Oh, I wish we'd actually swapped our number 10 and 22 around." And right, he's gone and done it. There must be loads of coaches going, "Oh, I wish I hadn't had a look at doing that." It's like we talked about before that, imagine if you could have your whole roster on the side of the field, a bit like NFL, and it just starts raining, you go, "Oh, well, maybe four, he's a bit more." Some of us wouldn't have a play-off. Every week, not again, maybe to get on, don't pick DC. I just, I love Razzie, and I think I love the fact that he doesn't care. Doesn't care what other people think. Who else has ever sent their referee advisor to do the whole press conference? And Razzie's just like, "Yeah, go, there you go, mate, go and face all the questions." And then, I don't really mind the name in the team changing the team last minute. - No, as long as it keeps all the teams going. - Because if all the teams aren't doing it, why should he be able to do it? - Yeah, but then I'll do that. - If I was in other teams, I'd go, "Well, I'll do that." Because, no matter if he has broken the protocols of the tour agreement. But the reality is that only reason, he would have been sanctioned by now if he wasn't allowed to do that. And people do say, "Oh, well, then everyone else can do it." It's like, "Oh, yeah, crack on, do it." He goes 71 and everyone's like, "I'm not sure he can do this." Like, "Well, he can. Anyone else can do it." - That's always really, really late. - I've asked people in front of him. - Yeah. - I don't get why football. They named their team like 90 minutes. I was like, "I'm not sure how much you get." - I know him realise the team's been named. - What bothers you? - It's not exactly so close. - I don't know, like, Sasha coming in for. - Polly. - Yeah, makes a difference. But some of the positions, Chess and Colby playing or not, don't think tactically changes the all-black. Okay, the front rowers, but they've analysed all six front rowers. So, I like it. And the reality is, whatever Russy does always gets scrutinised, because he's often a person to do it for the very first time. And then people get called into question, "Should it be allowed?" And then you've got this forever debate, this eternal debate in rugby, it's like, what you're legally allowed to do versus what's morally right. And I hate the kind of moral high place that rugby always like raises flag around, because nothing's perfect, and everyone will look to find the grade, because we can talk about that. But then on the pitch, we'll see players looking to find an edge in cheat and play in the grade of the game for 80 minutes. But that's kind of accepted. - I guess one person's game. - Exactly. - That person's cheating. One person's all part of the game. I do think that the way they've read any slide. One thing you don't do is accuse the Africans of not getting their scrimmaging right. And you said they've already come back to international rugby, and look, he's up for the fight. When you say to a South Africa, you're not scrimmaging straight. That's really to a red flag, to a bull, so it's all set up for this test. But you talk about rugby and values, and I thought I'd get too worthy about it. But that, Ardysa Verenshaw, fits Patrick's stuff. You all saw it? - The anthem. - Yeah. - It's a beautiful moment. - Ardysa Verenshaw. - I'd be heartbroken if it was pre-planned. I'd like to think Ardysa Verenshaw, one of the greatest all-blackstable time and gone. - Yes, it's pre-planned. - Come in, why not? - Yeah, of course. - I was joking. - You were joking. - Yeah, it was pre-planned. - But no, it's lovely. - Yeah. - It's great. - I mean, it shows that they massively respects what's sure if it's Patrick's done and given to that shirt, and everyone that's aware of the shirt before they go big on that. - And it's a lovely moment. - The big thing that they've done is, I only times have we heard people say, "You can't play rugby against South Africa." And they've just proven that. - You have to be amazing, I think. - But you know who never says that. Disgots. And the Scots, earlier in the Nation's Championship, a week after England went to South Africa, the Scots threw. I know it was kind of a second-ish, like South African team, but Scotland will always play, and they did. But what New Zealand have is just way more quality, respectfully. They've matched them in the set-piece. I think they've got. I actually think the all-blocks backline, the most skilled backline in World Rugby, to have so many ball players, you know, whether it's Ruben Lava, Rich Mawanga, to have Jordi Baratwav, I just think, is in a world of his own, to have Damon McKenzie at 15, and then arguably one of the best players on the planet at the moment in World Jordan, the best trascorer in all-blocks history. Their skill level is just insane, so why would you not move the ball? And if they show up their basics, they're going to be dangerous going forward. If they're not already. What I love about this series is no one is talking about the World Cup, even though it's 12 months away. They're talking about this series in isolation. But having said that, if you were England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, are you looking on and winning a little bit? I'm watching two teams, iron sharpening iron, raising the ball higher and higher, because they're playing these super-intense, high-skilled, high-quality test matches, and you're going, "Oh, are the best just getting better here?" I don't think you are, because we've talked about before. You look at the draw, and only one team out of New Zealand, South Africa and France can be in the final. So the other side of the draw, you're thinking, one of us is going to be in the final. And Ireland, Scotland, England, Australia, I can be in the final. Scotland go to the other side, but depending on what happens in the pool. So one of these Northern Hemisphere teams are going to find themselves in a World Cup final, which is incredible. And I think the beauty of some size of test match rugby and the best team in the world, when that best team in the World gets beat, teams look at it and go, "Oh, that's how you do it." You always need to be showing out to do it before you can then go practice how to do it. And as Luke said, England didn't really do much against South Africa. Scotland showed that you can hurt them and New Zealand have just gone and shown. As you've said, without really a great set piece and that they can go throw some ball around and score some tries, and nothing looks better for me in World rugby than when New Zealand put the ball in front of people into space, and they go and score a try. I think it was the Carter try, where just the hands, unbeliever at pace, putting the ball in front of the next player. It sounds so simple, but that's why we used to say New Zealand catch pass is better than anybody's in the world. And they're now showing it. Imagine what they can do with a platform, with some dominance. So I think they are, yeah, they are scary really. Well, not scary. I think it's great for the game. That they are coming back to being the all blacks of the old. I think the next 12 months are going to be fascinating. Good to see you guys. Great to see you guys. You've got a bit of words to do. Well, we've got some big names coming on the pub. We had this issue at the end of last season. Didn't we? We all showed up. Maybe some of us were meant to be there. No, I still think I was meant to be there, but what I think is disappointing is that when we all get together, Jonesy's reflection is, we've all shown up. I'm trying to give a reason why I mean, actually, you're going to do this. No, it's not a second one. So we're not invited. We know, is that what you're saying? Again, you've got bigger fish fry. You've got other fish fry. Yeah, there are other fish. We'll pot soon. Pot soon. Yes, actually, who wins this series, by the way? I do, we have a winner. Is it a drawn series or we get a winner? Why are they playing four games? Well, one's been in America. One of five or three, so you can have a winner. Because I think it's going to draw two. Yeah, it's going to be good to all. What is it at this weekend? It's in Soweto, Johannesburg. It's not at Ellis Park at the Soweto stadium. So I mean, back at altitude. Still be naughty. Still be very naughty, yeah. Bring it on. Yeah, South Africa will win on Saturday, just about for me, I think. I just. The last ones in America. And the last ones in America? No, it won't have the same feel. The one in America. It's not Chicago. No, that Ireland game in Chicago does a lot of heavy lifting. Yes. Doesn't it because it bases like, oh, there have been some epic test matches in America. But a lot of the other American test matches haven't, I mean, been lower profile, because it has. The Americans in Lichy just get their head around football. And we're like, hey, there's this rugby match. Who? What? Yeah, in New Zealand, South Africa. I just hope, yeah. As you say, I hope the Baltimore game doesn't feel like massively after the Lord Mayor show. Iconic stadiums in Iconic cities in South Africa. And then you go somewhere that. Why would you explain rugby to an American, you've got three bullet points. It's not NFL without pads. A lot more technical. That's three. You can't pass the ball forward. We could have done with that one, but we would use it up. Yeah, you start. Sorry, yeah. Fewer players, less subs. But maybe too many subs anyway. And then let's talk about. The scrub board rugby reformers, Bala. And look, when we talk about the scrum, it's really that Bala. It makes sure it's not deep-powered. But also speeding up the game. I think you need 30. I think you need 30 hours. 30 pods. OK, let's crack up. We've got Mara on the way. We've got Finn Russell on the way. We've got Dan Tiffin runs. We've got way all happening up next. Five lives, rugby union weekly. So, Ash, your first guest to the season. And no better man to have on. I don't think you're correct there, Christoph. Yeah. When we're looking ahead to a new campaign. A well-rested man. A very well-rested England Sarasota line's captain. I don't think he is. Because he's just getting married, kids. Probably move. Microphone, Mara. There's a few times, come on. It's all within the same year. Mara and Toe, Jason, yeah, by the way. True, true, true, true. I don't mind why I know this, and you don't, Mara. So, married, kids, have you moved out? I haven't. Oh, that's on the list. No, no, no. OK. What else could he have done in the last year? It's got a big enough place. Holidays. Yeah, it's got a few of those. This is the weirdest thing. Because when we flew back from Johannesburg, you were in the airport. They were a very bleary art. I was like, that, what's Mara and Toe? You're not meant to be on tour. And you were in the airport. We don't think you're impressed. She's fun timing. We, uh, I flew back from Nigeria. I got into his Heathrow Terminal 5, got into the shuttle train to take us to our baggage. And I looked to my right, I looked to my left, when I looked to my right, I saw Jamie George. I looked to my left, I saw Steve Warfick, and they both looked at me in disbelief. And I was going to feed the drive to you to them. And it was a very, you know, obviously, England just played South Africa, they were coming back from there. Then, you know, I went to go pick up my stuff and I saw the whole of the England squad and management at the gate, so it was a quick exit, right, I had to say hello to everyone. But it was actually nice to see them, you know, I was missing them from afar, so it was nice to see them. That's really a couple of other journeys. We thought we had a big exclusive, that you were joining the, you know, all this resting was a bruise and you were joining the camp. He might have any skip. I didn't have my boots, actually. I didn't have my boots. I didn't have, didn't have kit by bought boots and, no, I had boots and I didn't need to bring it. So you enjoyed the rest, but it's not something that you were expecting, shall we say? Yeah, so I spoke to Steve within two weeks, two or three weeks, post six nations, and he raised that, you know, we had a long conversation and at the end he mentioned, oh, and yeah, we need to have a think about what we do in the summer. Then I was like, we talked about, we talked about, we talked about, then he said, yeah, whether we take you on tour or not, and it took me, took me a back a little bit. I was, that was just something that wasn't really in my mind, I just knew that, you know, from the end of the season we go on tour, duh, duh, duh, duh. Is that because you've done it for so long, do you think? Yeah, and it's the done thing to my memory, I might be wrong. I haven't heard, or I don't recall many selected rest for England players from the England head coach. None come to mind. I know there's been, from time to time, certain players have decided to step away for whatever reason, but not as a, almost as a performance sort of metric or reason behind it. So it's just what we have, I don't know if we, we have a different system to some of the Southern hemisphere teams where they can enforce rest and have greater control over these things, and, or even, you know, Ireland really to look too far, far away. So yeah, I just wasn't expecting him. However, once I digested it, and once I start to think about it, the more and more I thought about it, the more and more I thought it was the best thing for me. Because is it hard when you're in the middle of it to realise what you're taking on? Because you were the Lions captain, the England captain, the Saracens captain. You've spoken so eloquently about the, you know, what you had with loss in your personal life. And you probably go, I'm just dealing with it day to day, but when you take a step back, did it sort of hit you that you have had a pretty, you know, tough 12 months or so there? Yeah, I definitely had a big 12 months and I don't know if I've fully come to terms with both the positives and the negatives over the last 18 months or so. But sometimes when, you know, I think often in life, you know, everything comes at a cost and you want to, when you don't have breaks and the season is pretty much a year around season. You get five weeks at the end, really, you kind of probably want at least eight week and eight week preseason, which is of just training on top of the five weeks. You've had that this time. I've had a full preseason and it feels different, I imagine. It feels great. It feels great from a mental point of view. It feels that also from like a physical point of view, I was, you know, I've been in all of preseason, taken part in pretty much everything. So yeah. I don't know it by it at all. I don't know it by what by the decision or not. Not at all. No, it's not at all. I think it was a wise, imprudent decision and I think it was the best thing for me. If it was, you know, if it's a different conversation we're having, if they're saying, "Oh, I think you're not too sure of your place at the team." I think we're going to give other guys a go and, you know, we'll take a view when you come back. That's a completely different tone to the conversation. If that was the conversation that was being had, but it wasn't. It was giving me the best opportunity to, you know, to perform well over the next period of time. And a big change at Tarrison's with Matt McCollough leaving. Brendan coming in, you've had, like I just said, full preseason, how has he been? How has he changed things up? We all know Brendan is a fast thinker, you know what we say. I don't know how he manages to get so much information into his brain and out to all the people so fast. It's quite incredible. Brendan's been great. Brendan is a well-went, he's a force of nature, he's, you know, as you said, he's a fast thinker, he's highly emotive, he's very clear with his comms, standards, what he expects. And I think the team has responded really well to him, and he just comes with a gusto, he comes with a particular energy and charisma that I think the boys are enjoying so far. So yeah, I'm very much excited about what's to come and what we do going forward. It's going to say it's big 12 months, but it's really a big 12 weeks for you to date on the horizon? We'll be making any announcements on the pod, but yes, I'm excited. But you're excited. Very much, very much so. Do you know what you're having? I'm having a boy. I'm having a boy. I'm having a boy. I'm having a future life. Yeah. How old are you? 31. 32, not too bad. Five, six kids, how many do I want? I want a minimum of three. You want a maximum of? Well, I don't really have a maximum of. It's a reward here in average. It's not so much in this generation, but in my grandfather's generation, a lot of Nigerians are polygamists. So they had many wives and many children. That's not really your going time. No, no, no, no, I'm a faithful man of faith, a lot of fraud, but I'm going now. So for example, my cousin's grandfather, he must have had like 60 kids without exaggerating. I don't know how many wives he had. But maybe 15, some of them he married properly, some of them, you know, just called the, just called the, the local. Guess he didn't even work in it around these. Well, he, well, he, he almost became president of Nigeria. Well, that's what we do all the time, that's the way for another day, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, you say a bit of a free date, yeah. I mean, anybody who's got kids would say, have one. Yeah, see what you can do, see what you can do. Obviously my wife will have to, as I was going to say about that as well, but I don't think. More than you, I'll just say. I'll say, I'll say. Well, a very personal, I'll be that. And very personal, I'll be the season, there's loads to look forward to. One thing I did think, I did expect from you over the summer, I had a bit of time off. I thought you might be MP of Barnett or something like that. Well, Keir has just stepped down. Yeah. There's a gap, though, is there? Yeah, just a gap. And that's a safe labour seat. Okay. So, obviously, I maybe need to, it's feet to a couple of feet forward, you know, wrenched up my interest. That's. But, you know, we've got to walk up to it, that's a bit of a walk up to it. We'll talk to him first then. I'll tell you, I'll pay you. I like it. Good man, Marrake. Best love to everything over the next few weeks, months and beyond. Thank you very much. Good man. That would be something if he was able to be a member of Parliament and captain of Club and Country and a new dad, actually. That'd be a lot. First? That would be, that would be. Is there ever been an MP role player? No, no chance. No one springs to mind, but back in the day. Back in the day. I'm thinking. No, but back in the day. There was some. Like, we're talking like a hundred years ago. Not even. I reckon we would've played for England, rugby, cricket and we're also like a prominent member of the community. Don't have to go 100 years. I reckon in the 90s there might have been. No, no. I don't think anyone from that kind of legendary England team in the 90s, they were like. Not coppers. Yeah. And they. Rory Underwood, RIF, pilot. Yeah. No MPs. Does an MP doesn't spring to mind. Someone's missing a trick here because you need that in your friendship because circle, don't you, so. Marrow, let's get Marrow in there. And the bit about him being. Having that pre-season, being all rested, ready to go. Going to be really interesting how that all pans out and what levels we see from him now. It seems like it was definitely the right decision. We. I feel like a lot of people mentioned it. Maybe Mario just completely missed that he's played so much. much rugby. And didn't see any of it until Steve said, maybe we should have a rest. I'm surprised, I'm surprised slightly. Surprise that it took him by surprise to be a conversation. I suppose though, as you've been there, I haven't. I imagine when you are a pro rugby player, you are a pro rugby player and playing rugby and training rugby and you get accustomed to the grind as being just what it is. I suppose where Marrow is a special case compared to the other England players is his longevity, consistency of both fitness and performance, and then you you layer on how important he is to England, Sarasons and the Lions, and in number of times he's played 80 minutes. So I think his number of minutes combined with the number of years means he was probably a bit of a special case here. I think what the key factor is how important he is to teams in the position that he plays. I can't really relate to it or any outside back really. I don't have the same generally speaking. They don't have the same heavily involvement as what Marrow does in teams as part of leadership groups and captain in and position-wise in line-oats and number of contacts. All the stuff that is involved in is quite a unique one for him, but he's right in what he says. I can't think of any. Can you think of any captain that's been told to have a rest? No, I can think of examples where players didn't play that 2014 first test against New Zealand because the turnaround was too short, wasn't it? To go from. They have sabbaticals in New Zealand. Yeah, well in advance. I like that we talk a lot about the grind which is way more severe in the top 14 compared to the Pred much bigger league, longer season, but look how many summers in recent memories, some top French stars haven't taught. So that has become quite common in France recently for the injuries as well. Marrow hasn't been injured. He's not had a long, as far as I can remember, long injury layoffs. Not really. So a lot of players generally do get injured, so he's like, well, you don't need a rest because you've had injury recently or you've had a rest period, so yeah, I think it's probably a combination of things, but hopefully he's better for it, full preseason, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. Well, why would it be it? Well, because of the strain of it, or the still of the hard it is, but I am fascinated to see how he goes now for club and country, someone who has had that period to think he's going to start doing championships or something like that. Are there levels he can go to now? You don't think he's reached as high as a player? I'd say he's reached as high as a player, but I think he's impact in games can be high. It can get back to where we see it. That's what I'm saying. I think when he burst on the scene at 2324 in 2017 with the Lions and England in that 2016 back end of that Grand Slam in 2016, I'd say still does that. Yeah, I would say that, but there was a prominence maybe about his career. Because he was new. Yeah, and maybe his game is just tweaked to be a different type of lock, maybe not quite as eye catching, galloping in open spaces, kind of forward, compared to someone who's excelled in the tight. We'll see. I just wonder if it'd be very fascinating to see what a full preseason, having that kind of mental refresh, having that kind of physical refresh, what it could do for a player who's already achieved so much. Yeah, it's going to be just good to see what Sarasund's got with, because literally Brendan like we spoke about. They could completely change how they want to play the game. We just don't know. Yeah, we'll do loads more on every club as we get closer to the season, but speaking of higher achievers, we've got another one coming up on the pod. Finn Russell is on the way actually. How are you Finn? Good to see you again. Great to have you back on. Thank you. I'm good. I'm good. Some summer for you. Yeah, I would imagine summer. Yeah, got married to first week after the Fiji game and then I think I don't know, three weddings after that, so. Not yours obviously. Well, no. I did that for the next few years now. I think I think in bath, there was, I think six or seven of us got married. They were, they were rugby weddings. I'm a little brother got married in the same this summer as well and they're not. There was two other bath boys, but there's another three other bath boys got married as well, so. We got to say people of all of them are not. Yes, but well, Ben O'Bano's and Will Sturts was the same weekend and then all the more. I was just saying weekend, so. But horse actually had one in Portugal as well, then one back home, so. Who's the best? Mine, I think. I like him. Obviously, a sergeant. Who's the best? They're very different weddings. Will Sturts was down in Cornwall and then Will Mures was back at the farm, so. Okay. Yeah, Will Sturts was back at the sort of family of state, I think, and horses on his family of state. They're different, different but. They've never been apart. 33 getting married. Yeah, and where was your mom on it? Up in, I'd just say North Berek. So it's right at Kilmerton House, so back home, so it was good. It just wasn't weather was nice and yeah, shorts for the afternoon, but yeah. So the fall bet was done and then we changed into shorts to then come back out after. How does it work? Because you've got obviously mates from your Glasgow days, you've been in France, or you've Scotland mates and our holiday bath mates, wittling that down to, oh, do you just have everyone and have a person guest list? Yeah, think, well, we did like the kind of formality, but in the morning, which was like our closest friends and then family, and then an afternoon being a fighter, but another 130, as people are something so. We had a lot more than after, and so that was, I think, Glasgow. You know, we stand France, sort of people, sure. You're there in the morning, you're a proper mate. Yeah, afternoon. You're on the wider group. Yeah. To be fair, I think everyone coming after in the morning, that was half three, so it wasn't late. It wasn't an evening. It was kind of still their old-day kind of thing. That could be dangerous, because they probably been drinking since 12. Well, yeah, I think I started at nine. I think I beat them too. It's like, you were nervous. I'm a mate from the right before. He just kept feeding me champagne in the morning, so. Who was your best man? My two brothers were best men. I mean, I had three young men as well, so my three best mates, my younger days, sort of, not going to be in a sanctuary, yeah, exactly. Was this any sort of news in Scotland? What do you mean? Did it make any. Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure. We didn't go down that route of anything. We didn't have any newspapers to do it, so we kind of wanted to kind of, whatever we wanted to do, and we were in charge of it also. Yeah, we kind of kept it supposed to say semi-private, but obviously it gets out there. Yeah, yeah. And you got away after? Yeah, we were meant to go to Mekonos for four days, but then we flew back to Can after a couple of days. I know. You know what it's like. So yeah, it's going to be four days in Mekonos with me, Emma, and then my sister and brother-in-law, and then we ended up flying back into Can. It's still party, but just for a couple of nights there, so something a bit different. Right. You know Can we are, wouldn't you? I've had to be in it too long for a while. No, I didn't think so. It was much too much. Anyway. We've seen you've done nuff all the night, basically. You've just gone out a lot at a good time. Yeah, we're based up in Scotland, probably, you're probably traveling a lot, like without knowing it. You're kind of living at a case for almost like ten weeks if you could somewhere to or so. I mean, nuff all fitness wise. Well, so I told my calf towards end of last year. Oh, convenient. But so I went on tour, played against South Africa, and then I had these varicose veins in my leg, so they got in, I tried to get him taken out this somewhere to hopefully help my calf, so it always tightens up my right calf, so they thought maybe that's causing a little bit of an issue. So the Monday after the Fiji game Monday before my wedding, I went down to Leeds, got that burnt out, and then I started running, I think, ten days or something before we were back in. And it just tightened up again, so I did probably five or six sessions, and then didn't do anything, because then I had to go and get it. So it's the same that kept you out towards the end of the pressure you were thinking maybe we might see you one of the games. The plan was to try and get back for that semi, it wasn't right in training. Got through the whole session, I threw one pass and it just locked up again. And then the plan was if we got through that, to try and hopefully push for the final loopy caster. So when we didn't get through, it was, I had a few weeks to get right, right for that, so that's a good game. And where are you at the moment with it all? I'm fine, I'm back in training normal with the team. I've not done all the conditioning yet, so they don't want to push it too hard too early. I think they say with calves with the soleus, that's kind of the load, which then throws it off, it's not the acceleration. Actually, first of all, I've done a soft tissue injury in my career. Yeah, because we've brought it up to the top of it, I've seldom got injured. Yeah, I've like rocked with a doctor here and there, but in terms of soft tissue, I've not done anything apart from that, so. I had stopped running anything further than 40 metres, straight line. Was that? So I had. Age, was it? Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. And age, you couldn't run in straight over more 40 metres, not that, Bob, as you made it. You don't run over 40 metres. Anyway, it's jogged, don't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is. So literally, the plodding kind of muscle, and it says, well, that's one I used the most actually. On a serious note, you mentioned a South Africa game. I just want to ask you your reflections on that, because you correct me if I'm wrong, for it, it felt like you played to the best rugby, Scotland have played, and you hammered them, and you gave everything at it. Still, they had too much. If you've taken. That's the kind of game that can either deflate you because you gave so much and lost, or it could really encourage you because you asked big questions of the double world champions with your sack. Yeah, I think, obviously, deflate you because you lose, but you play so well, but then at the same time, go over to South Africa, play an altitude in Pretoria, and playing like that was amazing. I think learning from it, whenever we've played against South Africa, you can make a lot of line breaks, make a lot of entries to 22, but it's actually how do you finish them off? So, it's something we'd actually been getting better at, so when we get in there, it's finishing it off. And I think if we're going to take that next step to beating us South Africa on New Zealand or whoever, let me have to not succeed or we didn't do it this time and how do they get that score in differently and putting it all back is very different to South Africa, but I think it's like annoying at the time, but a lot of positive to take from it and how we can then move on to that next step, like I said, so it seems like against South Africa it's always kind of the same. You make quite a few entries, but they're covered offends. It's pretty much put yourself to tower that saves them a lot of times. He comes off the scrim and corner fires to catch the winner, you know? Do you think there's pressure on you to break the sailing through this barrier that you can't seem to just quite push through against these top teams? I'd say that there's probably a little bit of pressure but of expectation, I think we've got a great squad. We've been, it's easy to say, we've been building for the last few years, but until we actually think so, break through that, until you sort of break through and beat these big teams. You know, beat, we've not been Ireland in nine years I think now, so until we sort of beat them every sort of couple of years, then it's good building, building, building, but if we're not actually getting to that next point, then it's hard to keep building, you know? It's also so much motivation as we talk now, start a September year to go to the World Cup. So loads there with Scotland and you've got New Zealand at home, what a chance to finally take their scout. First, I mean, Scott is rugby history, no more motivation needed and you look at Bath who last year had a brilliant season for so much of the campaign, two semi-final but I know you've been there as a player before, I should get so deep into competitions to lose into semi's a season that could have been so historic ends up being disappointing. So you've got so much to go at, haven't you both a club and country level? Yeah, there's obviously lots and lots to play for in a World Cup coming next year, as you said. I think the first Scotland is a nation like the new Nations Championship, I think that we're really good for us, having tournaments in the summer and in November that will help. I think it will help every team kind of pushing on and then six nations obviously, one of the best. So November is our first Scotland to be massive, we've got a chance to beat New Zealand, I think they've got back to their best unfortunately. But they look classed just now, but yeah, we've always got a chance to try and be the first team in Scotland to beat them, but again, it's everyone will be building, I think everyone will be using this next year to build up for the World Cup, as much as everyone wants to win, I think subconsciously, especially the culture that we're looking on to the World Cup and what's to come there a little bit as well, but yeah, we're seeing them with Bath, it's after getting close last year in the league and Champions Cup, how do we take that next step and getting to finals again, so I think. It's hard on both fronts, isn't it? Yeah, so few English teams have tried to do that, and you tried, and you got far, but it shows how hard it is to get really deep in both. Yeah, and I think it takes a lot of the players, as you say, if you're playing weekend, big games, then it's quite tough, but I think I'm learning from last year, is it worth the effort? But you're just both hard, isn't it? I would say it definitely is, I think she gets, then you lose the semi-farm, you've got to go in the Premier, I start. Yeah, I wish we had that energy that we could have. I think there's put so much into board out and stuff. Yeah, I think there's part of that, but at the same time, had we then got to the final of Europe and you win that game, it's different, but then you lose that game, you lose the semi-final, then you're kind of thinking, was it worth it, but, you know, we're probably one player away of getting to the final of the pre, and then you never know what happens, and then against board, I think we're just a few things that didn't go our way that we could have done differently. So it takes a lot out of you, but I think that's what my bath's got a great squad, and you've got to kind of prep for that, so I think in a small, a short league, you have to start out really quickly, so when you get to the end of it, you can try and rotate the team, and like, when you're before that, when we went Champions Cup, the Challenge Cup sorry, and the Prem, we work quite ahead in the league, so we could rotate the team, and you can look after the players when it came to the end of the season. And just finally, life with Eddie Hurne? How's that? Yeah, it's good, it's good fun, so, and that's where we're in Can, we're full across there to meet up with him, and other guys, to suppose, have a business lunch for us there. So was that all of his rugby, so was Henry Pollock? Yeah, he was, he got on his rugby stable just after, yeah, so, me and Henry were there, Emma was my brother, my sister, and Laura were there, so, yeah, we went for a lunch at Lagerie, so it was pretty chill, and then we went back to the yacht after it, so, I didn't have the other half left. Yeah, it's just like a different, a good man, a really hard summer you've had by the way. Yeah, it was tough going, well done, I don't know, good man Finn, thank you to you. So would you cut your honeymoon short to go on a boat with Eddie Hurne? So is that what, what's happened? They were passed what he said, they were going, they were in Mikonos and then got the call, you need to be in Can, like a bat phone and you've got to go, well that's the, the circle he's moving in now. Well, surely Eddie goes, oh, really sorry about you're on your, you're on your honeymoon, I won't disturb you, or does Eddie go, Emma, I've got a boat in Can, take it, I'll leave it to you. The yacht's leaving, yeah, and obviously Finn jumped at the chance, I suppose it makes the honeymoon a bit more special, but you've got to cram in as a, if you're a player who gets that five, everyone gets their mandated rest, but given the international start, their five weeks mandated rest a bit later, you've got a very short window to cram everything in, I mean, those weddings, you've got to kind of have the club players before they go away and the international players when they're back from, from talking, come to mine, just couldn't make it or didn't want to come. Yeah, why is it let him go, Jim Mander refused to let any of them up to the Saints go. Hold on, when did you get married, um, 2014, August, or, oh, 'cause it was in preseason. Yeah, but man, it's a Saturday afternoon in preseason. So you had, you had, you had you been on that New Zealand tour in 14 when you were the finalist played the second game? Yeah. Yeah. So you had all the lads back in, he refused to let them go, because they were playing. But why didn't you then do the wedding in, I suppose you would have been touring in June, why didn't you do the wedding in July? Um, um, it just, please, you were away or whatever, yeah. In July. I don't know. Anyway, August was probably a suit to do, but because of preseason, Jim Mander didn't let any of them go. Any of your Northampton teammates? No, I think there was a bit of spotter. Had you gone to Saris? Yeah. Okay. So this is, this is when you were, okay, for right, this, you were already at Saris, the, the Saris guys go, had you not made friends by then? No, yeah, Saris, I was there. Okay. So they were allowed to go over Northampton, weren't? Yeah. That's annoying. And that wasn't allowed to come. That was a shame. It is, but Jim won. But after the problems you have is a, where we play, tying other people in. From other clubs, um, yeah, they had to go and play, um, for Penn, Bedford away somewhere. Yeah. Probably, I don't think I'd even played, but it just refused to learn. And that is probably pretty common amongst DIYs, head coaches, sort of thinking that every second of preseason is incredibly important. Yeah. And it might be, but I'd bare say, it's just not, it's probably not. I think we've, as a game, we've definitely moved on, though. We appreciate more people's time with families and, uh, I mean, not everybody. I can't vouch everybody but, on the whole, you think, overall, I think if you're waiting with 2024, 2026, people will understand, like, we're having a conversation better right now, about what our coach decided to not do for my wedding day. But you don't think the current crop of coaches would do the same. No, I don't think so. It's a bit more aware that, I think there's a lot of lives in it. Yeah. Okay. It's interesting. But yeah, it's still in you saying five weeks off and stuff. It can be hard to fit everything in that long time. Sure. And on Finn and Scotland, I just a lot, it's a big old year, isn't it for him? He's 33. He's achieved so much in his career. He's won a prem title now, but you feel he's in a place with his experience allied with his form. I know he's had his injuries at the back end of the season where he could have a pretty special 12 months if things go to plan. I mean, there is the chance of Scotland could beat New Zealand this autumn as the chance of Scotland could make a special six months. I wonder what his nation's the world cup bath could be fighting on both fronts. There's a lot that he could be achieving over the next 12 months. I wonder what he'd choose over beaten New Zealand or win in a six nation. Winning a six nation. He's in. Oh. I've said that a bit quickly. The first Scottish side in history to beat New Zealand. Yeah. Or the first Scotland side since 1999 to win the six nations. We should have asked him. Yeah. We've got quite a few things actually. We're like, did you fight from big? Yeah. We're a bit rusty. We'll come back to that one. We're a bit rusty at the moment. Anyway, so. And I feel like there's always someone on pressure because you've been finishing, have you been finishing? No, no, no. He's killed, isn't he? He's so good. Yeah. I think it's, it's an actual, it's a trophy. It's something. Is something you put a by your name. It's just that, that I'd love Scotland fans to get in touch. Would you rather beat New Zealand or win a six nation? Surely it's six nations. The only hesitation I've got is the Scotland I've never beaten New Zealand before. So you would be part of it. It's a great memory, but winning the six nations is in the box. And to win the six nations, you have to win at least four games. So you've put a body of work together in those six weeks, five for six weeks. Properly sustainable and tangible that can, you know, show that you've properly arrived as a team. Yeah, 33. I don't know if we're running out of time, but this World Cup is going to be his last World Cup. You think? Yeah, big year for him. Yeah. I don't think he'd be flying fly off of Scotland to 38. I'm just going to chuck him out there. No. I mean, Johnny Sexton did. Johnny Sexton's crazy. And I think he's crazy really. But this is, how we say, and I know that it was encouraging that they beat Argentina without fit, for example, isn't it? There has been a little bit of an issue for Scotland is who plays 10 when Finn's not around. And it was clearly a massive issue for Ireland, because Johnny Sexton, they shouldn't have had so much pressure on the 38 year old shoulders, should they, as they did in 2023. So yes, I would think that Finn won't be the Scotland's fly half in 2031, but you never quite know. I dare say-- Just a nice trip to America. I dare say, Johnny Sexton isn't an anomaly from that point of view to go that deep into your 30s. Big old 12 months for Finn Russell, as it is for so many international players. Big 12 months for our next guest, who made his international debut in the summer, Bernard Janty van Rensberg. He is on the pod for the first time, and he's up next. Right next up, as you man, we've spoken about a fair bit on the rugby weekly, Bernard Janty van Rensberg. But first time on the pod, do you know he's spoken about you? To be honest, in the last couple of months, just before I sort of made my Indian debut and stuff, I tried to stay away from the media just because, you know, not all just bad things, good things as well, but, you know, I can't just avoid the bad things and listen to all the good things. So I try to just sort of tell myself to avoid all of the media stuff and just focus on myself. So, yeah, sorry, I didn't know. You know, because we'll get on to this, as we're on there, then we'll talk about some other stuff. But your selection for England obviously did come with a little bit of noise, didn't it? Yeah, of course, and understandable, you know, that there's going to be some people that don't like it, some people that do like it, you know, for me, it's just an honour and a privilege, you know, to sort of go to that next level of playing rugby and, you know, it's sort of what you work for as a professional rugby player. So yeah, like I said, I'm so, so happy that something like that happened. And like I said, they just sort of tried to avoid all the outside noise and just focus on myself. Did you have to at one point say, right, because clearly you wanted to play for South Africa, you played for the 20s, and that would have been an ambition. Did you have a moment where you almost had to say, no, now it's about England, because there was still stuff from Razorasmus in the summer that you were a little bit on their radar too. Again, that sort of came out off to it also, only I heard about it because my dad told me and that he said it, but for me sort of, I can say this in the right way, there wasn't really an end goal. Yes, I would have probably loved to, but there wasn't really, I just, every sort of team I play for, I want to do my base for that team and whatever comes after that comes after that. And sort of just helped me to sort of focus on myself and try and play the base rugby that I can. And sort of when it came to me, I can become eligible after five years and for being in the UK. I didn't say, oh yeah, my new goal is to play for England now. I just sort of stuck with my own thing that I want to be the base that I can for my club, whatever happens and whatever comes after that, you know comes after that. On the stuff that came out that Razor said that he wanted to pick me and all the stuff, you know, I was sort of in the dark, I haven't had anything from them. Whatever he said in the thing, whether that was true or not, I didn't know about it. You know, I just sort of tried to focus on myself and when I sort of had the call up, you know, it was getting that opportunity to be in the squad, yes, that I sort of made the squad. It was first that just the alignment camps, not the else squad and to be in an alignment camp, you know, it was, it made me happy and, you know, it's sort of like a little bit of reward for the work you put in over the years and all that stuff. So yeah, I didn't really sort of know that anyone wanted to pick me whether it was South Africa or England. I just sort of kept focusing on myself and I wanted to do my, my base. I like the way that you've put it in you as a player, just wanting to progress to the next level. And the circumstances, other circumstances that doesn't affect you playing rugby and you're eligible to play for England, right? So you've just taken the next step and you've taken the emotion outside out of it and that's what people try and do, especially media and stuff, they try and attach emotion to it. But for you, that is in the case that you are able to go on play for England and the national rugby and that's the next stage of your career and it looked like one that you really enjoyed over the summer. You enjoyed getting on the pitch and playing for England. One hundred percent, you know, it is a special moment for any, any player to sort of go to that next level and play international rugby and, you know, whether I'm, what I was born in England or not, if I were an England shirt and I got on that pitch, I'm going to give it my everything, you know, because that's just me as a rugby player. What I'm going to do so, yeah, I don't know. Some people obviously probably still have their thoughts and how they feel about it and stuff and, yeah, for me, probably can't prove them wrong or anything. I just do that's how I feel. I just wanted to do my best for which I would do my best. When you went out there, when you were playing for England, did you have any sort of sense of, I need to perform even better to try and make people think that I can play for England? Was there any sort of thought while I was going through your mind or not? Not really, no. I just sort of, before I made my debut when I was named on the bench, I remember it was just like we arrived at the stadium and Jamie George came over to me and he was like, if he can give me sort of one better advice, he's just enjoyed today. If he thinks back sort of to any matey's debut, everything goes by so quick and, you know, the whole build up and everything just goes by so quick because you're trying to think of this and this and this and, you know, if you're maybe feeling a bit stressed or under pressure or whatever, you know, you said just don't think about anything, just go out and enjoy and that's sort of what I did. I was just like, you know what, I'm just going to enjoy today, it doesn't matter if I go onto the pitch or not, if I go on, I'm not going to try and do anything special, whatever I do. I'm just going to do what I do weekend and week out for Bristol or for all the teams I've played for, you know, and don't think about anything special or whatever, just going to try and do whatever I can to enjoy the day. How did you feel pulling on a white shirt? Did you feel weird? No, not at all. Not at all. Yeah. Not at all. It was actually like, you know, the thing that sort of made it better as well is, you know, all the boys that I sort of played with making my debut, you know, all of them the way they sort of just made me feel like it almost just felt like I'm playing a normal game for my local club, you know, they made me feel so welcome and they made it so easy for me to sort of just not have any nerves or anything and, yeah, made it really easy for me to just go and enjoy it. So it felt natural for you, but what about for your family? You mentioned your family. No, we know how the South Africans, the Springboks, how incredibly passionate they are about the Springboks. Have you spoken to, of course you've spoken to your family about how it feels for them supporting England because they're the boys playing for England. Yeah. Like you said, do you know how South African people are? My mom. No. My mom, my dad, my brother, and one of my best friends from school and his wife was at the game when I made my debut, my dad had his England shirt on, my mom had my England shirt on that I played with in the French 15 game. My brother had his England shirt on, my friend had his England shirt on, and I think his wife's the only one that didn't have a shirt on. She was just a normal close, but she had an England hat on. So no, they obviously, it's like family and they before and also they said they support me. Because I'm out of white and they absolutely did, so they loved it. Was it your first touch in international rugby? You scored it right? Yeah. Because we were doing commentary in Everton together, and I said I think that's his first touch in the French 15 game, but it's a full-blown international. Yeah, it's just lucky enough to find myself in the right place at the right time. Did you enjoy the whole summer tour and being involved? Yeah, it was really fun. You think you can be for a while? Well, I hope so. Yeah. No, it was really fun. It was a lot of travel, obviously, but the nice thing about it, it sort of gives you so much time to get to know everyone a little bit better, spend some time with them. And you want to look shiny? I know, I knew a few of the boys before and playing Call of Duty with them, most of the less the Tiger boys. Is that through well? Is Ellis Genes the link there? No, that was Jasper and Anroh. Liemannberg, they used to play games as well, and then I played Call of Duty with them. So Jack, Fennpert, Fleet. Badger, Badgerbush, George Martin, Freddy Stewart, all of them. So I've used to play with them and then all the boys that play Scots. I think I made about 300 and something bounce onto it just by winning all the cards. I'm a ranger, are you? I don't want to say it, but I just love playing Scots, yeah. What game? Poker. No, they just played like Creek or something, but they always play for money. So at Bristol we play as well, but not for money, so I've gotten good at it. And then as soon as it was for money, yeah, I just sort of benefit it. And tell us about the time after tour, have you spent that? You were at five, five, four weeks off, did you? Yeah, obviously straight off to the Argentina game, we were still a long travel back to the UK, got back on the Tuesday morning to another flight on the Wednesday. To go back to the farm, my dad's farm in South Africa. What about to do? It's, let's just be clear, it would be Pretoria. It's like three hours, three and a bit, I was dry from Pretoria. It's up on the belt then. Yeah, it's close to Botswana border, nothing just. How much longer it's okay? Yes, 500 hectares of wildlife, 300, I think that he does the crops on, and then he bought another small piece of like 280 hectares for another bit of wildlife, because we have buffalos on the farm as well. And on the 500 hectares there's a little bit, almost a little bit too much, so we have to sort of split them and move some of them to the new, new farming board. Right, so you got a job, that's all for when you finish. Yeah, hopefully I would like things, so my brother loves farming as well, so maybe we'll split it all, I don't know, I don't think that may, hopefully. Whoever goes to the farm first will get the big house and then the other one. The other one will have to make a blend, so you are on it already. Yeah, fantastic, and just finally better goals for the season. Loads on a Bristol front, but then the world cups in a year, you mentioned how much you want to stay in that England environment, there's lots going on. Yeah, me personally, I just obviously, anything I do, I just want to get better at it. You know, drawing, sort of, learn as much as possible, especially like being in an England environment, and playing with sort of lots of players that is that next level, you know, try and take as much as possible from them and sort of get that going in my own game. And then, what do you think of the missing pieces for Bristol? Always in and around top four, and just never kind of getting it done. I know, that's what I would say, I think a goal for Bristol, like you said, exactly. You know, we're in and around, I just think it's sort of, I don't know how you get it. Hopefully you don't ask me that, but just getting that consistency because I'm thinking back like two years ago, we had a really slow start, but then a really good finish towards the end, last season. Again, we had a really good start, and then a slow finish. It's just sort of, I don't know, getting that balance, or where we try and be consistent throughout the whole season, and some people can say, yeah, it's injuries, or whatever that sort of made us drop off last season, or something like that. But I mean, all the teams get injuries. I think it's sort of just that when the next guy steps in, you don't really drop off, you just sort of maintain that consistency. And I think that's something you sort of will focus on this season to sort of make sure that everyone is sort of in the right spot, that if it's their time to step in and, you know, put on the shirt that they do the job. Thank you, man. Good to see you. Thanks coming on. Thank you very much. Have a good evening. Thank you. Right, Ashie, Bernard Jansi van Rensberg, good to have him on the pod. As we said, someone who we've spoken a lot about, and now we sort of were able to get his side of things when it comes to playing for England. Yeah, I really phone interesting the way he explained it. I think we talk and watch playing for England with emotion a lot of the time, and we don't take that away from it, especially if it's an English player who wanted to play for England. It's a given, right, for us, for you to play for your country. So in this situation, it's a bit of a different one. But yeah, the way he explained it with, he just wants to play for the next level as a rugby player, and that is playing international rugby. It's not his full law, he's doing what the rules are, what the regulation is. It's what is available to England one team. That's his next stage playing international rugby. And that's the opportunities he's got. And when you do take the emotion out of it, that is playing the simple matter of fact in it. You can't get upset one way or the other on it. He is a rugby player, who's very good, who, as we've been playing for Bristol, deserves the chance to play international rugby. And it's where professional sport, in its very essence, is a kind of conundrum and a contradiction. Because if you were to offer the person in the street a chance to go to the next level in their job, then they'll take it. Which is how he's describing it, as you say, taking emotion out of it and just going quite clinically, am I playing good rugby? Is there a higher standard rugby to play? Yes, have I been selected? Yes, I'm going to do it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that way of thinking. I just think for a lot of people, international sport is about emotion. But it's very rare to have a profession. If you were to get a promotion at a bank, emotion doesn't come into it. He's taking the emotion out of it, but for so many of our listeners, professional sport and sport in general, international sport particularly is all about emotion. There's quite a lot of the French national team that could play for other countries. But they play for France. Like it just happened in a team international sport quite a bit. But when it's your country and it's, I think we've been over it many times. Yes. But I understand, is understanding it. It's great to have him on, to explain it and get a feel for it. I'm actually looking and enjoyed it. He understood what he was doing in putting the England shirt on on plane and his family bought into it. And he could be playing a big part in the next round. Yes, for sure. And clearly a good team, man. Steve Borthwick's spoken about it. A lot of the England players have spoken about what a good team man he is. And they will completely understand the England supporters that would go, "Well, hold on, this guy got the phone call from Rady Rasmussen five minutes before Steve Borthwick. He would rather play for the sprint box." And he's not, to his credit, not sitting here going, "It's been my lifelong dreams play for England and I'm an Englishman to my core." Because he's not, he's not doing what some people have done in these kind of conversations and go, "Oh, the moment I heard the national anthem, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I'm going to get a tattoo or some genius." He's also sort of protesting too much and trying to pretend he's an Englishman because he would be the first to admit that fundamentally he's South African but he's got an opportunity to play for England and he's going to give it everything. Yeah, I think the other thing as well that people get annoyed about is that the English talent that isn't getting the opportunity because he's a good player and we can get him in the team. So I think that's another bit that people see blocking off and avenue for other people that should potentially be getting English lads that should be getting the chance. Yeah, it's a great, it's a great, it's a good debate. And we had it on the pod on Instagram and they were low to really spoken to him about it. Interesting points of view from both sides but yeah, good to get him on and wish him all the best with Bristol and with England this season. So that's pod one back ashy, a load of Chris amount on the way on the rugby and weekly. Lost count on the number of quality guests we got coming up. But over the course next few pods, the likes of Fin Smith, the likes of Lewis Riesamid. We can have a special episode all about the new signings to the Prem. It's being the Jack Morgan, Rafi Quirk and the one and only Courtney Laws who's back in the Prem. We're on our way to sail in a few days time, aren't we? Oh, no. Well, it is up north, yeah, we're looking forward to it. And we're going to go and see Courtney and some of the other guys and get the load on their new club and in Courtney's case his return. To the Prem right, oh, it's also a special with Conor Ashay as well. The one of the head honchoes at the RFU with a year to go to the rubble cup. So we've got so much look forward to it is going to be about everything. Future of English rugby, the state of English rugby, the England team with 12 months to go where they're at. As we've touched upon on this pod, watching New Zealand and South Africa raise the bar, our England and other teams being left behind. It's a question to put to Ashay and loads more in between. Good to see you as ever, Ashay. I'll see you back in a few days time when we go and see Mr. Courtney laws and we'll do it all again. See you then. Thanks for being back with us everyone and we'll see you soon. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.