We need to talk about the AI Brand trip situation... ft. Megan Lieu | Office Drama

- And for the first time, my content became a battleground between two sides that both had good points. - Silicon Valley is such an echo chamberly. You see the Billboard ads of AI this day like that? - Our job as creators, tech creators, we're in the middle between the two worlds and we had to bridge that gap. - The press and media. - Some of them tried to hide the fact that they were trying to go for that angle. They were just like, "Oh, just kidding. "We just wanna hear about your reactions to the backlash." - I came out of that event super energized all honesty I had underestimated where this was going to go. - How does that make you feel? - That feeling of like my heart dropping to my butt. - It's the worst feeling. - I don't think that'll ever go away. - That's the end of the day. - It's like, this is our career and like we enjoy doing it. And if we don't learn, then this career would end. (upbeat music) - Welcome back, John Malamas. Today is gonna be a special episode. It's not gonna be like what our previous episodes have been because it is time for us to talk about the open AI brand trip situation. I just wanna be really upfront here. AI is a very sensitive and hugely debated topic. But remember, my platform has always had its roots in tech. I spent my entire career in it. And after I became a creator, I was able to work with the world's top tech companies on their AI products. I've had the privilege of speaking to the builders behind the products to ask deeply nuanced questions, give feedback and test their products. And frankly, when this whole situation was going down, I didn't know if I wanted to address it personally, but after a lot of reflection and like talking to people in the creative and tech space, I realized that this community, this platform, this channel is so uniquely positioned to speak on what it's actually like, working as a creator in the tech space. So today, I am very privileged to host Megan Liu as our guest on Office Drama. She's a data science and tech career creator with over 474,000 followers across LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. She's worked for EY, worked in data science, data advocacy, and is a developer advocate and founder of ML data, the media company that delivers content on AI tech careers and professional growth. She is a brilliant tech leader and voice. And she actually was on said open AI brand trip and is here to share her experiences. I just want to set some expectations. It's very daunting for a female creator in tech to speak on a situation like this. So Michael here is to host a safe space for us to have a productive, thoughtful, and constructive conversation that bridges the tech space and the rest of the world because that's where we kind of sit as creators. And I really need your help to make that happen. I know you're already extremely thoughtful and empathetic listeners, but if you are new here, I hope that we can approach today with empathy, curiosity, and constructive dialogue. And if we do do it right, maybe, just maybe the decision makers may pay attention to us and take our piece with sincerity to influence cultural product and policy changes for the better. Now, some disclaimers, I have no affiliation with open AI, never been invited to an event brand trip, had outreach for a partnership. I do love tech through and through. I've worked professionally in trust and safety and in very passionate about tech ethics, the creator industry and how both worlds work together. It's entirely new space. It's uncharted territories. Nobody knows what they're doing. So I hope I can continue to be a reliable voice to shape how this industry evolves and works together. So without further ado, let us begin. - Welcome, Megan Lou. - Oh my God, girl, you're here. You flew out here from the East Coast. - We booked this like two days ago. - This is crazy. Do you often come to California? - I'm SF area a lot more. This is literally only my second time in LA. - Why? - Isn't that crazy? - Why, why don't you, isn't it beautiful? What's the East Coast like right now? - Hey, tell me. - It's much more humid than this, yes. - Oh yes, so I come out here and I'm like, okay, I can see why. - The appeal. - LA and welcome to Los Angeles. - I know. - What a welcome. - What was your first time here in LA? - Adobe Max last year when I first met you. - That was our first time meeting. - What was exactly, was that lunch or something? - No, it was in the evening. There was some kind of event after the conference. - Oh, that's crazy. That was my first time in LA. - Ooh, and you didn't get to explore. - No, not at all. - I got to explore the hotel lobby. - Which hotel? - It was attached to the conference center. - That sucks. - That doesn't sound right. - Oh, yeah. - Well, do you have a good time? I love Adobe Max. - Yeah, that was fun. It was fun. I was like, I definitely need to come back. I just don't know when. And then now this was a good reason to come back. - Yay, well, you got to come more often. I feel like type people don't ever come to LA. - It's not, yeah. - I always had the good of time when this go. I'm so tired. But okay, but people definitely do not go to DC at all. So, don't complain. - I'm, I mean, I'm so glad to finally meet you and have a first big conversation 'cause we only met kind of in passing, said hi. - Hello. - It was like very networking. - It was. - Yeah, but good to know. - Very different from this. - That was only last fall. - Yeah, that was October. - A full year, a year later, basically. - Oh my gosh, almost a year. - Yeah, almost a year later, here we are. We know what the topic of today's episode is. And it's a very, very sensitive one. And you know, I've been working in the tech space all my career and then as a creator, Office Drama has always been about career, tech, business, media and I felt this was so important to have a kind of conversation like this. I thought long and hard, I was like, maybe I just don't say anything 'cause I was really busy when all the thing was going down when all the brand truth stuff was happening on social media. I was like, dude, I gotta go fly here. I gotta do this. I gotta go to sleep. I gotta full of love. But I felt like having a conversation like this was the perfect intersection of everything Office Drama was about. I ended up seeing your post on Instagram where you were like, I also want to have these new once important conversations. - The carousel, yes. - Yeah, the carousel, the carousel. And so I was like, wait, this girl, we haven't really talked before, but she wants to have a conversation. I should ask her out. (laughing) - I'm gonna take her out. - I slid into her DMs. And I was like, oh, she could reject this 'cause, you know, you never know what's gonna happen. And that's why we're here today. She said yes to me. I think another big reason why I wanted to have this is that you see a lot of discourse online about people say we need to have these conversations and it's important to have the new ones conversations. But then I'm like, where are they happening? Are they at the summits? Or are they at the workshops? Or are they at the conferences? I couldn't really find them. And that's why I wanted to have them here. But you made that post that you wanted to have important conversations. And you said yes to coming to LA too. - Coming on up drama. - Good. - Like, I know you were planning your own pieces too, but I wanted to know. Why'd you just say yes to Office Drama? - Three reasons. One, I feel like the timing was right in that there has been enough time since that has happened. Not just for the drama to blow over, but for me and my head space to have processed everything and to be able to talk about it in a calm level way. But also this more long form space format allows for those new ones conversations to come about. You don't wanna know how many short form pieces of content I had drafted out. And I'm just like, I'm scrapping all of this because all of these sound just so not what I want to say. - It's hard. - But because with short form, it's just so easily clippable taken out of context. I really wanted to have this longer conversation. And third reason is because I feel like you understand, being in the creator space, being in the tech creator space and being in the AI tech creator space. It's a very, very niche intersection of all of these worlds that very few people will understand. And I felt like I should have that conversation with somebody who gets it, rather than maybe somebody who's on the outside of it. - Yeah, you mentioned to me that you got a lot of outreach from people trying to support you and then perhaps get you to comment. - Well, what was I like like? - In the past, my experience with the press and media was almost always in a good light. - Oh, really? - Oh yeah, oh, yeah. - Interesting. - But this time, I remember the first one came in and I was just like, "Oh, what is this about?" And then I'm like, "Oh, I wish I didn't open that." Because it's like a lot of the reach outs were to get a comment on the drama. And some of them tried to hide the fact that they were trying to go for that angle. They were just like, "Oh, we just want to hear about your trip and how it was." And then they would come back after I don't respond and they were like, "Oh, just kidding. "We just want to hear about your reactions to the backlash." And I'm like, "Okay, now I can clearly see "what they're trying to do." And I am so grateful that I have a team that looks out for these things and they are experienced in this arena and they were like, "We're not going to comment right now "at least because otherwise, I would have been like, "Well, here's what you need to know." And that's not the right move because I clearly have not experienced what's speaking to the media. And now I have learned that-- - What did you learn? - I have learned that I just can't speak in the heat of the moment and everybody who is there to have that conversation in the heat of the moment, they probably all want one thing. Conversations like this have to happen after everybody has taken a beat and taken a step back rather than just putting all of your words out there. - I remember once upon a time, I got contacted by a journalist, a reporter who in their outreach email, they said, "I want to have a conversation with you "on being a content creator and woman in tech." And then they ended up doing a hit piece on me and my company, yeah, at the time. I know, I know. So it's like, that's my vlog week. - And the interview is about being content creators in tech, their work days, career paths, followers, how you got started, what your followers were like, what engagement you got, have you gotten opportunities like sponsors and recruiters from these videos? And I'm like, "Yo, of course, hell yeah, that sounds amazing." It sounds like it. like a career video. It sounds like woman in tech. So I'm like, oh, advocacy. Cool representation. And then mid-interview, I got to switch up. I got to switch. And they asked me more about my employer, which as you know, we're not allowed to speak on behalf of our employers. Our opinions are our own in our own like content. I didn't get approval from my employer at the time. Like, they didn't know I was doing this. So I panicked. And then I immediately de-empt my boss, my manager, and DMed comms. I was like, oh my god, I think I'm caught. I'm like, something this is not good. I need help. It was a situation where I felt like I was advertised one thing or like the outreach was one thing, which woman in tech representation careers so cool. And then the piece became another. But it happened. It really happened. That is my story. Now I can see why you're just like, oh, all of your retires have been positive. Because well, I think if they did a more educational piece, I would be happy. But I think I've been caught in like other people's headlines because I've just happened to be in this space. So let me just recap what has happened. And I've done a lot of research. And there's a lot of reporting on this. So if you don't know what happened, according to the Hollywood reporter, the verge tech crunch business insider, OpenAI hosted their first ever influencer brand trip at Wildflower Farms for a luxury retreat in upstate New York. They were reformed to table dinners. So while in this activity is like beekeeping and classes on how to better use OpenAI products. So think about 30 creators were invited, right? That's about. Yeah, that's where, yeah. Yeah. Then people posted about it. Because when you invite creators, people post about it. That's what people do. And then the internet reacted very much so they were headlines like how an OpenAI influencer trip backfired creators get slammed for taking OpenAI luxury trip. Influences draw back lash for attending OpenAI's first luxury trip. And that's a lot to process. So I want to like go back before all of those headlines came out. What were your first feelings coming out of the trip? What headspace were you in? I came out of that event super energized both because of the people that I met there. We were all kind of creator entrepreneurs. So we all cared about the same things. We swapped ideas. I came out of it. I remember being like OpenAI's products and the things that we had demos for that we got to see firsthand. I was like, that is genuinely cool. And I didn't know that they had these new features. OpenAI work or codex. It was work. But within work, there were new features that they showed us. And so I remember being like, I'm immediately going to implement this into my my workflows. I was sitting in the airport lounge being like, okay, like let me tinker with this. Let me try this out because I was very impressed honestly. So I came out of it being like, that was a very productive trip that I got to do with some of my friends. You said on your LinkedIn post, you met some of the smartest creator entrepreneurs that you're happy to call my friends. How was connecting with the other tech creators? Because I know it's like for the tech creators face is very small. But it's also a little bit lonely. Truly, if it weren't for these events, I would not get to connect with anybody in my space. I only get to see these quote-unquote like co-workers almost when these events roll around. So I am always being like, yeah, I'll go, like I'll go out of my way to come to this event because I know some of my friends are going to be there. Otherwise, I would never see them. And for me, I am definitely an introvert. If I were, for sure. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Wait, wait, what's your NVTI? Years ago, I think it was like ISTJ. I feel like it's changed since then. But the eye, that stays the heavy eye. Heavy eye. Girl way. Yes. You go to so many events. Because I find that I have to actively push myself and challenge myself to go to these things. Okay. Otherwise, I could be a hermit for the rest of my life. And so if I weren't at these events, I'd be like, shriveled up into a corner in my dark little home. Like, it's not good. So you have to like challenge yourself. So sounds like you were really excited. You learned a lot after the trip. You're speaking at the airport. And you're like trying to figure out how to implement all your workflows. So as a content creator, if any content creator goes to an event, they're excited. They want to post about it. So I guess like, what was your content plan going into sharing the experience you had with your platform, with your followers? I told myself, okay, I want to post more in the in the moment content. I'm somebody who over thinks my content a lot. You're posting them. I'm so hard. It is really hard. But some people can just do it. I met creators on the trip. No. Who are like, I make five videos a day. And I'm like, girl, how? And I was like, okay, if you can make five videos a day, I can make one video a day where I'm just like, I don't overthink it. I just film it in the moment and like, do some like add some post. I still don't have it. But in that moment, I was trying to challenge myself to do that. And I was like, you know what? I am just going to not overthink this post content opportunities as they come up. And for me, I was like, truly so surprised at where this event was held. I didn't know where Gardiner was. I did not know that this was like a nature retreat. I thought it was just like maybe a suburb outside of New York City. Let me just capture this genuine reaction. I want to bring my genuine self to camera more often. And so I recorded that moment where I reacted to the cabin. And I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to post this first. You posted during the trip? It was right after I had left the second day. And I was like, okay, that's the first video I recorded. So that's going to be the first video that I post. And then the plan after that was to post more of the in-depth valuable content about, you know, what I learned, what the purpose of the trip was. But in that moment, I was like, okay, we're going to just be in the moment post genuine videos. And it just so happened to be that that fateful video. That's the only post you made video wise from that event. Did people react immediately or was it like, I remember I had posted that maybe Friday evening or Saturday. Okay. And then the reaction started coming in Sunday afternoon on TikTok. And I had posted to TikTok and Instagram. And it was going south on TikTok. Sunday afternoon, when I looked over at Instagram, 100% positive. Nothing. That would have indicated to me that this was going to be taken in this direction, except on TikTok. TikTok, I had that that inkling. And then I was like, you know what? This will probably be a thing. But I feel like it's going to be mostly contained to TikTok just based on what I was seeing. And then by Monday morning, it kind of became across platform thing. And I was like, oh, I, in all honesty, I had underestimated where this was going to go. But I probably should have paid attention to what was happening on TikTok more. Could you have predicted the reaction? Like when you were filming it and then posting it and then saying maybe the first message come in for me. This was completely uncharted territory. Yeah. I just like you, I live my life online. I make my living online. And I have been so lucky that for the most part, it has been a very welcoming community. Otherwise, I would not be doing this still. And so I never would have thought that this would reach the audience outside of that community. I was like, this was, this is just going to be like maybe a couple thousand views maybe. I think in retrospect, I have received comments like that on previous videos, but they were very isolated. Of course, I reflect on those comments whenever they come in. But the volume and the intensity of this round of comments was not something that I've never dealt with. Yeah. The commentator reactions, I think were, well, I guess I want to share my experience from the outside looking in as a viewer. I think I just, I saw it was happening. You know, I saw room tours. I saw unwind with me where creators would vlog from their suites running baths at night. I'm out here in the woods with open AI. And then I think those headlines or those like starting content pieces, maybe was a big contributing factor to the reactions. Then according to the verge, people commented things like people will literally sell their soul and their planet down the river for a nice free hotel room. Or wow, beautiful greenery. They should put a data center there. So it was really sarcastic, really biting. I think that a lot of people on the trip, this was their first ever brand trip. You've been on like brand trips, but this is like a different type of brand trip. This is a different type of brand trip. Okay. So was it like the first of it's kind for you? Yeah, the first of it's kind where we went to a non-corporate conference center setting. Yeah. Pents, why I had that reaction. I was just like, this is insane. That was insane. Having this here, not even just like, wow, this is so lavish, but just like why are like, it's just so interesting that they chose this setting when most AI companies. They tend to just be in conference centers and, you know, office settings. What was the content plan if like things didn't happen the way it did? What was the hope going forward for your content? The following pieces of content were definitely going to emphasize what we had learned in the workshops and the demos. That was about half of the programming where we had sat down with product teams, engineering teams, to battle test the product in real time and share that feedback with them, which we definitely did do. A lot of us creators came out of it being like, that was really helpful. That was at least half of the programming, but of course it's the luxury cabin and the beekeeping and hanging out with friends. That was just what was going to be the initial content because it was cool. That was the plan to share for the videos after that, but we didn't get to that. You decided not to post it? Definitely not. You don't want to add that feel to the fire, even if it was educational. Yeah, no. I was not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole. By the time you saw that carousel, that was after a lot of back and forth in my own brain and with my team being like, should we post this, should we not post this, should we address this, should we not address this, should we push it in this direction, or should we push it in this direction. And finally, after a lot of pushback from some members of my team, I'm like, no, I want to get this character. or so out there, I wanna get something out there rather than just pretending it didn't happen at all. - 'Cause yeah, I think that you had the choice to let it blow over and not address anything and even just like take down the posts and just like forget about it 'cause the internet does what the internet does. They forget it in two weeks and it happens a lot. According to TechCrunch, which referenced the future problems tech newsletters by Sarah Gibbons, AI companies have been working with creators for quite a while, like you've done AI partnerships, I have done partnerships with tech companies on AI products and Thropic hosted an influencer band dinner for cloud in February, Microsoft co-pilot hosted an influencer brand trip to the Super Bowl, which is wild, but TechCrunch says none of those other AI trips seem to have struck as big of a nerve as this open AI brand trip. And as someone who has worked in the space a lot and partnered and gone to these events and had a great time sharing your experiences, why do you think this event turned out so differently? - I think a lot of these articles in the commenters had hit the nail on the head in pointing out, I guess, the irony of the setting. I think at its core, the event was not different at all from the goals that other AI companies have with these events. But it was the setting of where it was given everything that is happening in terms of the broader narrative around AI. It was to them, I guess, a very flashy, ironic way of hosting this event. - GirlBoss Media, the digital media career platform on their Instagram made a post and they wrote, "It's hard to ignore the irony of a luxury nature retreat while AI companies are being accused of destroying the environment." Yeah, which makes a lot of sense, but I don't think we're on the side of, "Oh, AI companies should stop hosting events with creators." I don't think that was the message that we wanted to get out. Finding the builders and understanding why they did what they did and what this product is for and what considerations they have is what is I'm fascinated by. I'm a product girly, like, "Pam background," I just really like that kind of stuff. I guess what are some of the events that you found a lot of value in and what you hope that these events can continue to be? - It's so important that these events invite people who are very in tune with their audiences and what they want to see. I would like to think that these AI companies view me as somebody who can advocate on behalf of my community and that's why we're there. That's why we're putting so many creators and people on the brand side together to foster those conversations so that it can be a two-way conversation, right? I don't think that these brands go into it being like, "Oh, here's what you should tell your audience." And that's it. They want to hear that feedback from the creators to the brand too. So that's that two-way communication. And I will say also that the other AI events that I've been to, usually they're like a one-night dinner thing or a one-day event where it is very much just networking. With this brand trip, we did have a lot more of those product sessions than I'm used to. So like I said, it was about half of the programming and I was like, "Oh, like this is nice." Like because we have that time to actually sit down and work on the product or work with the team on the product, that's actually not present in I think a majority of the other AI events that I've been to because they're shorter. Yeah, you have to do it like a summit style workshop style. Exactly. I want more workshops. I remember going to a networking dinner. I went up to one of the engineers and I was like, "Hey, buddy, I'm going to look at me right now." No, I'm just kidding. This wasn't like exactly how it went down, but in my head it's how it went down. Look at me. I'm not here to meet anyone. I'm here to solve problems. I'm here to go to bed early to solve. I know you're building this stuff to help people like me and I need your help right now. You're networking. You're my problems. What can I do? How can I get there? Because I'm sick and tired, buddy. And then that night, he did a product demo. Like he just went home. He filmed himself doing a product demo to like solve a certain use case that a workflow that I was like having a lot of trouble with. 'Cause I'm like, "Dude, this takes me so much freaking time." And then he sent me that screen recording. He was like, "Why don't you try this?" So I was like, "I love you." (laughs) And that's why I think these events are going to continue to happen because they want that real-time feedback where they're like, okay, this one individual had this very specific problem and nobody else was giving me this feedback. And that's valuable to the brain. 'Cause they don't, they're just working. They're just working, they're just doing their job. Right, and so that's the value of these in-person get-togethers for both the brands and the creators. That was awesome. Shout out. - We know who you are. (laughs) - So, but I do wanna address like the big elephants in the room on the AI criticism. And it's not something I will, it is in the scope of today's episode, but a lot of the comments were heavy criticism against AI, the verge summarizes them as the environmental effects, the contentious build-out of data centers across the US job replacement or job loss. And these are incredibly important conversations, you know, like we're both in the career space. We wanna help people in the career space. We've worked with like Puffins I LinkedIn and their book Open to Work came out on addressing AI and job, I guess the job industry job market and how you navigate that and what are like ways for you to build yourself. So you are more like AI proofing your career. But I must say that I'm not professionally qualified to speak on these topics. I try my best. I think I'm a consumer in these problem sets, in these problem spaces. I've watched, do you know, do you know Hank Crane? - Yeah. - Yeah, I watched his video called, "Why is everyone so wrong about AI water use?" And even he says, "It is not easy." The whole water debate is not easy. I wanna know my clarity, like I wanna go to an environmental engineering conference about AI and really learn the research behind the impacts and what we can do to slow that down. 'Cause I don't think anyone wants, I don't know, water to go away, like we need that. We need that. But he said it's not easy to measure and compare the effects of AI water use. 'Cause the thing about water consumption analysis is that it's just very tricky and complicated to do, even if there are fields of economics and science supporting this. I think the more that we can have conversations like these, we can discover and excavate the information we need. And everything's happening in real time. Like no one has this research. Like if you're waiting for researchers to come out, it's gonna be years down the line. Yeah, and that's just how it goes. So I feel like when you're going to these events and talking to the people and the builders of each of these companies, we're finally able to like build the narrative and what's happening in the industry together. And then we can share that more holistic, high level piece. But yeah, I'm not a professional in the space. I really wish I could. And hopefully one day we can bring actual experts to share more about their fields. So if this, we can take it there, that'd be amazing. But I wanna address that. That is what we talk about in my private conversations with anyone, truthfully. A lot of these conversations are happening privately because as we have seen, it can get very embroiled in anger when we bring up this topic specifically. And so if we continue to bring this anger around that conversation, how do we expect to continue to excavate? Like we have to approach it with an open mind. Yeah, and if you are very chronically online, hankering also, and also recently kind of went under fire for AIU staging is work, do you see that? Yes, I did. It was really rough. I believe. It is a rough time, it's a rough time. I think everyone's just trying to figure out their jobs and where their place is and what they, what their personal limitations are. We're trying to figure that out. And know like what is the take that we want to communicate to these companies and like what part, well what problem space are we trying to represent? But knowing what you know now, if you could go back in time to the moment that you got invited, how do you think you wanted to play things out differently? Definitely emphasizing the overall goal of learning with the brand. I approach all of these events sort of like trade shows. Like I'm there to network, meet people who care about the same things that I care about and learn alongside them so that I can relay that back to my audience and maybe that got lost in the initial video that I had shared. It's really easy as content creators to be like, okay what's going to get the most clicks? What's going to get eyeballs? And can't lose sight of why I started my content, why we started our platforms in that chase for people to like interact with our stuff. As a viewer, I really wish I saw more of the educational side because yeah, the girl just wants to know how to figure things out and solve problems. Again, outside looking in when I was like seeing this come out on my feet, I was very surprised to see a lot of the commenters and reactions that tagged primarily the woman creators. Like there were some discourse around it and I thought, oh wow, this might be a woman only retreat. Like that's kind of cool, like a woman in AI. But then I saw photos in BTS of the event and there were also men and I was like, interesting. I did not know that. That did not, that was not portrayed in the content that I saw. The virtual article specifically mentions comments questioning why so many of the content creators were women even though men were on the trip too. And you mentioned it was 50/50 and even the articles referenced when their first references were always the women creators and not the men creators. The men creators were last. Did you see that pattern? Did the woman see the pattern? And were the men supportive? Yeah, there were just as many men as there, on this trip as there were women. And I think the men on the trip observed that as well. Yeah. and so they were very supportive. They did recognize that we were bearing a lot of the burden of this negativity. What they like, "Hey, let me know if you need any help." Yeah, they messaged and they were like, "I'm so sorry this is happening." I know it comes from a genuine place because we were all creators who know what this job entails and what that negativity can be. I don't think anybody was just like, "Oh, you know, I'm glad you're receiving this and I'm not. I don't think it was like that." A lot of them were there for me to lean on to be like, just to be a listening ear for me, to be like, "I don't like that this is happening." And I was telling them, "I'm glad you're not on the receiving end." Yeah. Negative media is so much more baity, more interesting, more clickworthy. For sure. And I actually believe in that. That does a lot of love office drama titles or not very clickbait because I believe that when you set that precedence, it creates this mood and expectation that you want to have rage content. I only ragebaited one time with my gender reveal stuff, so I'm sorry about that. I also didn't intentionally do it. I didn't think that much. I angered a lot of people and I'm like, "I think you'll survive, guys. Sorry about that." A little bit of a healthy ragebait, but I do my best to have more fair titles because of that. And I think it's so much harder to create a piece with joy and education and being productive and constructive than it is to do a hit piece. Yeah. I think hit pieces are like, what do I, how do I say, like low-hanging fruit? Like cheap. They're low. They're cheap shot. Yeah. Cheap shots. I'm just like, "Really? This is the best you can think of." Yeah, so I hope that, and maybe I won't go as viral. I think that's just what it is. Maybe I don't have more clicks. That's the trade-off. And I'm okay with that. I'd rather have healthy debate, or you don't need to live in extremities. And we're in the middle two big worlds, yeah. What's funny is the week, maybe like two weeks before that happened, I went viral for a different video, completely unrelated. And it was 100% negative or positive comments. What was positive comments? It was me revealing my lashes to my boyfriend who has never seen me without false or without extensions. So I revealed to him that video got like 20 million views. That's crazy. And it was all positive. And I was like, "Wow, I am on cloud nine." It's so weird. I just like, I just attract positivity. And then two weeks later, the universe is like, "Well, here's one that's going to attract the opposite energy." And it really just goes to show that being a creator, you do have to get used to the ups and downs of how the internet works. One day it'll love you, and one day it'll hate you. There is another interesting headline or point that these writers or reporters are saying. It was like a much broader narrative. I find it very fascinating by The Verge once more. Influencers are a convenient vessel both by brands looking to disseminate their message, and for the inevitable backlash from audiences who give them a platform in the first place. By tapping a certain kind of creator for a weekend of sponsored event, the company is able to test a new audience without fully committing. It's the content creators after all who will get the angry comments, whose faces will be plastered on the backgrounds of an ever-increasing number of reaction videos. How does that make you feel? It kind of pains us in a light of like, "Oh, creators are just passerbys in this world where brands have more of a say." And I don't agree with that. It is very much a partnership between brands and creators where I would like to think I only take on the partnerships where brands value my feedback as a creator, otherwise I wouldn't take it. I'm not here to just be upon, and I would only ever partner with brands where I am proud to spread a certain learning or message, and so I think that that take is very one-sided. I can see how they would say that to like for creators to act as shields for these types of brands to get their message out. It may be true in pockets of the creator's space. It also has not been my personal experience, so I'm glad that you're also having a very positive experience in these partnerships. What makes you feel valued when these brands reach out to you? One factor is obviously the brand trusting that the creator can bring their own vision and their own voice to the content. Some brands are really good at being like, okay, here's the vision, and we just trust you to execute that. And to me, that signals that they value our perspective, and we know how to deliver the content best. And we're not just taking their talking points and just, you know, sending it to our audiences. And honestly, I think as you get bigger, and I'm sure you've seen, as you start to have more opportunities to pick and choose from, of course, you're going to gravitate towards those partnerships where you feel like you're an equal partner in the process. Have you ever given feedback that was, I don't know, accepted or constructed for the other side? I don't think I would ever give that feedback of like, "Hey, you're hard to work with." That's a really hard thing to do by the way. Yeah, definitely not. I don't even, I don't think you can easily do that. But also, but more like, "Hey, I know this is not going to work with my audience." I know that this type of language is not messaging. Yeah, this messaging is not going to work with my audience. I know it because I know my audience. And usually they're pretty receptive to that because if they don't listen to that, then it's a lose-lose. The content is not going to perform. And my audience is not going to like it. Brands will be like, "Ah, you're right. That's a good point. Maybe we'll lay off a little bit." But it can be hard when you're first starting out in your career as a creator to share that feedback and just be like, "Okay, this is what they want from me. So this is what I'm going to put out there." Yeah, agree. And then you learn that pushback. You learn to have that dance and that collaboration. And you also have team members on your side who can share that feedback with the brand constructively. Because I feel like if I were to communicate that with the brand sometimes, I'd just be like, "I want it this way because I just wanted this way." That's the TJ and you. Then my team has to pull back and be like, "No, no, no. This is how we should word it to the brand." I'm like, "Okay, you're right. That comes across much better." And then we are all on the same page. Right. Yeah. No, that's totally fair. I think that's why these in-person events, like going to these in-person events are so important because then you get to have this personal rapport with the decision makers or the person who can actually funnel your feedback in the right way. And they can receive your text in your voice instead of in a voice that comes from a negative place. Yeah, because it's really hard to have a proposal, go in a paid partnership with them and then for the other side to be like, "This is not going to work." And then you're like, "Oh, our creator is hard to work with." You have to strike that balance because everyone is kind of, we're kind of like all colleagues, but we're not close enough to give each other that kind of feedback. And we still want to protect our partnerships moving forward. But we also want to do the right thing. Right. How do you strike that balance? It really is getting to know the other side as a person and them getting to know you at these events, having like that personal, like, I know you, I know your values and I know what your intention is. And of course, I'm going to try to see what we can do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That stuff is hard. That stuff is really hard. OpenAI did give, finally, they actually gave a response to what happened. According to the Hollywood reporter, openAI comms rep Eddie Campbell Urban shared that creators are an important part of our community and how people get information and learn about our products today. We welcome healthy debate as AI becomes more prevalent. And we value creators who choose to engage with us and tender events, ask tough questions and learn alongside everyone else. We'll continue to value them just as we do traditional media and other marketing partners. How did you feel about this? Yeah, that's statement actually came out after somebody at OpenAI had reached out to some of us creators being like, hey, we're there for you and we're about to put out a statement as well. So we as creators, I think we appreciated that they did insert themselves in the conversation to be like, we value our creators. A lot of brands are recognizing the role of influencers in their overall marketing strategy. So I think that really showed to me that we were valued to them. Yeah, I really like the statement. I really like the invitation for healthy debate, which is hopefully what this is, healthy conversation. And I really like the part where they say they value creators who ask tough questions and learn alongside everyone else because I think that's the only way we can figure things out constructively and move the needle forward. There's no other way. If it's like, we're just throwing out polarizing statements here and there. If we're only having these conversations in private rooms and not where it matters, only private rooms. Yeah. Yeah. So I think creators get a chance to share that publicly and have a sense of whatever space that we represent and then bring it back to the table. Given all the events in AI and in the creator space, what do you hope the creator partnership playbook looks like? Like, maybe if you were in their shoes, you are ahead of creators and a tech AI company and you want to lead the culture for this is the golden standard or the best practices. How do you hope that playbook looks like? I hope brands don't shy away from having these these tough conversations. And I don't think I've seen that from OpenAI continuing to use these events as a place where that two-sided feedback communication can happen. These events are not just for the brand to be like, okay, creators, here's what you need to know and here's what you need to tell your audience and go run off and go spread that message. Brand has to listen to the creator as well, to get their insight on what's happening in their communities, because we as creators, I'd like to think of us as boots on the ground journalism in a way. Providing the space for that conversation to flow back and forth and in real time is why we go to these events at the end of the day. We as creators were there to learn, but so are the brands. They want to learn from us as well, you know, maybe you might think that that's like a simplistic view of it, but these events continue to stick to that. I think that's how they can continue to be productive, even if throwing that event doesn't result in positive ROI immediately. These in-person interactions are so valuable, especially in this post-COVID era where we tend to default to things just happening virtually, but the magic happens, IRL. How do you measure the ROI of an event, of these private dinners, these workshops? That's hard, because I feel like some brands are really cool with it, and some brands are like, what are we going to get out of this? Like, at least with videos and like, partnership videos. You can measure the clicks. There's like, yeah, yeah, like, what? It's in the conversations that are happening in like small groups, private rooms, like what are creators saying about your brand when maybe one of your spokesperson is not there? Like, what are they saying about not just the event, but also the role that this event plays in the reputation and the goodwill of the company? Because those creators probably will bring that back to their audiences in the form of organic content, even though they're not paid to do sponsored posts, right? It has to go back to like, the quality of the product at the end of the day. If you are throwing a big event and you're like creating a partnership around a product that doesn't genuinely resonate with the creator, then it's not going to go anywhere. And so to avoid that, you just really have to find the creators who would resonate with the product first, and not just being like, okay, this creator has a bunch of followers. This creator gets a bunch of clicks. Let's just throw money at them and like, hope that the partnership works well. That's probably not because that genuine value that the creator can find in the product, that will come through in between the lines of the script. I don't think we can get there until we have the workshops, because there's just simply not enough accurate tutorials online, and I hate the one-minute tutorials. Yeah. Because they're so hard to actually follow, and they skip a lot of the steps that you need. I hate the whole right-my-entire content system, whatever, this thing can just create content for me. No. Maybe some parts of it. Some parts. It can for me. No. Some parts of it, but in a one-minute video, we're promising a little bit too much. I have pretty good relations with a lot of AI tech companies, and people do want to partner together, but I'm just like, look, buddy, I would love to. I just don't see a good use case yet. And I want to understand it more, instead of us talking, me and marketing leader, whoever, can I talk to the product builders, or the people who are advocates, who like see all the use cases in the real world, that can be applied, because sometimes I don't even know what problems I can solve with it, and what the extent actually looks like, and what the output is. I really like that. I like very practical use cases, and build those stories out. Yeah. I think that's because you come from a product background, like you need to be able to speak to the people who can use the same thing as you. Yeah. I think that when creators who don't get the tech AI space, it's obvious when they do a partnership and you're just like, I would never do that. That's not a practical thing, and maybe they do it for a bit, but yeah, for me, as a consumer, I'm just like, can we actually do something useful here, like a, that was so unnecessary. There's entertainment for sure. There's like for the bit, there's like the comedic part, but if that's all that there is, then I don't think, I don't think we are writing the narrative enough. Like, the working plan is, is not enough. Yeah. So for those partnerships, I am okay to slow down the partnerships that are coming to me until we find a really constructive use case that I'm like, this was actually helpful for other people. Have you heard of the 11 Labs 11 Voices campaign? Not this specific campaign, no. One of my friends, Sophia, who was also, Sophia Noel, who was on Office Drama, shadow of Sophia, she was the director of the 11 Voices campaign, where essentially it highlights 11 people across the United States and in the UK, who live with permanent voice loss. So it comes from ALS, Stroke, Surreal, or Policy. They showed this documentary where 11 Labs was able to help replicate their voice so that their loved ones can hear them speak for the first time in a long time. It's a very emotional piece. It's very beautiful. Yeah. It's a very beautiful piece, a premiered at Southby in March, and it was like such an impact AI for good type of program in campaign that was like, this is amazing to give people their senses back. That could happen to me someday. All right. My loved ones. I love the assistive technologies, and those type of programs, I'm like, oh, hell yes. I am so for it. So I hope I can see more of that in the AI space. I would love to be part of that kind of messaging, such a, like you would never think about that. I don't think any average person could be like, yeah, one day AI is going to help with assisting voices for people who have lost their voices. Yeah, yeah. And so once you see that, you're just like, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I think, yeah, if more campaigns can highlight these social impact use cases that are unexpected. Yeah. That's where people start talking about the possibilities. What do you hope your relationship with AI will be as a content creator working in this space? What do you hope like your relationship will be moving forward? I have always wanted my platform to advocate for how to navigate your career in a time of a lot of uncertainty. And I had started to create content around that, not because, you know, AI became a thing to help do that. But because I personally dealt with a lot of career insecurity and doubts myself. And I was like, I, if I can take what I've learned and share that with other people, that's great. And right now it just so happens that AI is the tool for a lot of people to navigate that uncertainty. And it's personally helped me with my career as well. And so sharing that value to my audience, I hope that that's that value of like how to view yourself worth, how to view your future career in a time where everybody's heads are on fire. Nobody actually knows what their career or the world is going to look like in five years. If I can provide some sort of like answer to what that means for just one person, that's great. That's going to be the through line for my content for a long time. That's what I continue, that's what I hope it can continue to be for a long time. What was the uncertainty in your career journey for the viewers if they don't know your journey already? Nowadays, I think a lot of people talk about, you know, being lost in their careers, being lost in their early 30s, being lost in who they are, and that conversation is very prevalent nowadays. People are very willing to talk about that doubt. Whereas when I started creating that content five, six years ago, I don't feel like a lot of people were talking about that at all, how everybody feels this way. But nobody's saying it. No one says it. Right. That was like 2020. Yeah. When people were undoubtedly very lost, I think the most lost we could all be, but everybody kept it inside their heads. I started my content on LinkedIn where a lot of people were very career conscious. For me to bring forth the topic of like, you can be lost in your career and you can be in the process of figuring that out one step at a time and that's okay. You don't have to have everything figured out. And me sharing that on a space like LinkedIn at the time was just a little bit rarer than it is nowadays. Yeah. And so it was like not, not chic to be vulnerable about your career in securities online in 2020. And yeah, nowadays, you know, everybody just brings vulnerability to their content because we know that it'll get clicks, but also it feels therapeutic. And that's why I had started talking about that vulnerable content back in the day, specifically related to careers because I cared so much about my career. And I was so upset that it wasn't going the way that I had planned. But me sharing that disappointment was therapeutic for me because I realized that a lot of people felt the same way. What is your audience like? Like, who are they? What are they like? What are the interactions that you've had with them that made you feel, oh, I, this is who I'm fighting for. And this is why I want to keep fighting the good fight. I think it's very similar to your audience, I would say, like just ambitious girlies in their 20s and 30s, who maybe at one point in their lives channeled all of their effort and even their identity into their nine to five. But now in this world where everybody's talking about portfolio careers and like side hustles and, you know, diversifying your income streams, maybe now they are like, wait, maybe this nine to five narrative actually doesn't fit the goals that I have for myself, like the long term vision that I have for myself. Going to those girlies who realize yes, it's okay to work hard in your nine to five, but it's also okay to give yourself two things outside of that, that nine to five. And sometimes I'm like, do I clarify enough that that is the person that I'm trying to speak to? maybe sometimes it gets lost in the messaging, but I try to show up as that myself. It's show up vulnerably and be like, hey, I once upon a time cared a lot about my nine to five and now I'm trying to build something outside of that and I have. And so me showing up as that person, I'm hoping that I can naturally attract those people, even if sometimes I can't verbally say that in a very concise way. - Yeah, I think it's really heartwarming. And I think that's why I wanted to do a podcast because you can't kind of hit that level of vulnerability or resonating lines or being that helpful or nuanced in those one minutes. And I think one minutes are almost like entertainment, like the bait, like the, you just, you get a little, you get a little hit and that's all you get. It's just candy and yeah, yes, I've done really deep content on short form. It's really hard to do. It's really hard to execute, right? And those spaces is why I wanted to do office drama. - I think that for tech creators in particular, once upon a time, it used to be like, how do you interview and get the jobs? How do you negotiate your salary, like salary transparency? But I think tech creators have evolved their platform to weigh more than that. Like it was like the day in the life of a software engineer, right? Like, what is it like being in product and data and like being a designer and how I broke in with no, with no skills or experience? Or it would be the just like the product, like unbox product with no, you know, like review of this product. - Right, exactly. I feel like those are, that's a different category of creators. I don't, it's not that they're not tech creators. It's like tech career creators versus tech technology creators. - Okay, yes. - Knowledge creators, technology creators. - Yeah. - Yeah, like they go to the CES and they do review of like this like new camera, we'll do, do, do, do, yeah. - I can't, I can't do technology like that. - It's so different. - I do tech, I don't do technology. - Yeah, tech career. So I feel like that was how it was in the last, several years, but now tech creators have such a different role in this space. Because AI is like one of the most, perhaps the most innovative, influential technology of our era and time, that's changed so many things. Like all the great CEOs say, like this is, this is probably the biggest innovation that's happened in decades. And we are part of that revolution. And it's a scary thing, but I think our role, which I again, like you probably understand very deeply, is that when you go to San Francisco, everyone's kind of in this echo chamber of like, everyone knows what's up, and we're kind of just building, just doing work. But Silicon Valley is such an echo chamberly. You see the billboard ads of AI this way like that. The people I know who are working in this space are all well-intentioned people who just want to do good work. But it can be extremely, you can't see anything outside of it when you're like so deep in it, which is kind of why I needed to lose humans is good. I just wanted to do that. And then we have the rest of the world. And the rest of the world dialogue and discourse is so different from Silicon Valley. Like it's just night and day. It's night and day and our job as creators, tech creators, we're in the middle, we're the middlemen between the two worlds and we have to bridge that gap. And through our content, through long form, through short form, through LinkedIn posts, we have to bridge that so that one day, we're able to be in the room with the decision makers and bring those artifacts, those quotes, the sentiments, so that we can slow down to grow in the right ways. Yeah, so that's my take on tech creators moving forward. I also think that with the rise of AI, it gave rise to communities and people who think alike, versus people who don't think alike, and people who think alike, they're going to coalesce into groups, niches, whatever. Right, and out of those groups, niches, you're going to have the more public facing people. Yeah. Branch out and become advocates, creators for those small communities. And it is with these transformative technologies and that is why these communities have popped up and that is why I think we have started to evolve away from, and by we, I mean like tech creators, we have evolved away from the like, here's a day in the life of my, you know, my work day. My corporate job or something. Right, yeah. And like, those are entertainment. Yeah. And there's definitely a time and place for it, but these communities crave something more. These communities crave connection with each other. These communities also crave like, learning what's outside of their communities. Like what's happening outside of their bubbles? And that is where our role as content creators need to evolve to advocate on behalf of those communities in a way that maybe we didn't have back in like 2021. Yeah, I agree. Now that you've gone through this roller coaster the last few weeks and you're coming to a place of clarity, what's something you've really learned about yourself? I have learned that I can definitely fall prey to that insular thinking of like being in that bubble, like not knowing what's happening outside of your circle and your niche. This was, like I said, uncharted territories for me because I have been very lucky in that like, the comments on my content and like the conversations that I've had have generally been positive. And then when this happened, I was like, oh, there's this whole other world outside of the people that I have, that have been my core audience, right? And for the first time, my content became a battleground between two sides that both had good points. And when you are creating content for just one specific audience, you get used to the comments only going one way. And when this happened, I was just like, oh, like this conversation can absolutely go both ways. I recognized the pros and cons of both sides of the argument because they are happening right under my nose in the comment section of my post in a way that had never happened before. For me, it was a learning experience about, you know, how I react to comments that were for the other side and how I can serve as the person to bring both sides together. In the past, I was always just like, I hope everybody agrees with me. I hope like all the comments are positive and it got to a point where I was just like, yeah, like all of these comments are always gonna be positive. Like, I could, I'm just, as long as I'm positive, the comments will be positive. I, as long as I'm well-intentioned, good-intentioned, then this negativity won't happen. But now, like, it's not, I see it as like, it's not negativity, it's like a two-sided conversation. And I hope to be the one who can foster it without viewing it as like a personal attack. Of course, there were personal attacks, but those are hard, those are hard as well. Those are really hard, like that. That feeling of like my heart dropping to my butts, the worst feeling. I don't think that'll ever go away. But when you see comments for the other side, for the other perspective that are actually like, bringing up good points that I can learn from them, I'm like, I value those now. And I actually, I welcome them in a way that I didn't before. Yeah, I think a lot of brands saw what happened here. I was like, hey, there were maybe some perspectives that we have missed in planning out our marketing campaigns. And like, the brands are learning in real time alongside me about how the rest of the world feels about AI. And it's like, how do we incorporate that into our message? That's a learning lesson for both creators and brands. And I truly want to lead the way in it. Honestly, I don't know what you were going through, but you come off very resilient. I'm like, Megan, this is your first time going through the trenches of the internet of the cancellation culture, the cancel culture. The internet of all things. Yes. And I feel like you did really well. I'm like, you're out here. You're talking. You're like, you're not, you're not choking up. You're just-- I had to take a step back or I'll see you on that. I move on and move forward. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm learning. And here's how I want to change my work moving forward. I don't know what it looks like, but I'm committing to it. And we'll find out together. That's what I'm hearing. The other day, it's like, this is our career and we enjoy doing it. Yeah, I enjoy doing it. And if we don't learn, then this career would end, truly. I want to continue to use my career as a learning point for myself, but also for my audience. And if I'm not doing the learning, my audience is not going to do a learning either. Yeah, so we have a lot of work to do, which is why Matt Lee will be scary for me. So I'm like, we have so much work to do. Oh my god, you got it. Help me, Megan. I'm so excited that we're able to finally hang out and meet and talk. I haven't-- I feel like I've been out of the tech creator's space for a little bit, especially after I moved out of San Francisco. I don't know how you stay in touch with everyone. I feel like there's been a new wave. You're one of the OGs. I'm not an OG at all. I'm after OG. Yeah. Post OG. Yeah, I'm like post post OG. Like, my UCO is OG. That was such an era, I know. And so I was very, very grateful to have her. Give me guidance and support while I was going through my journey. So I was like, oh, I probably should reach out to the tech creators. But they're all in San Francisco or in New York or something. And no one's here in LA. I can't name a single person. Really? Yeah, there's nobody. I bet there's more somebody's here than in DC. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. But that's your choice moving in DC. True. That's what I get. Yeah. But you are traveling a lot, which is cool. And I cannot travel anymore, so it's a little bit tough. No, that's good. Because you're just like, I can only go to the events that I really, really have to go to. Otherwise, it's a no. I know. Yeah, but your force to be strategic. I know. But now there's a whole wave. And I'm like, wow, this is so exciting that it's so much bigger than what it was before. Because I used to be the only one. Like literally, I'm just like, this is really awkward, especially as a woman, like being a creator girly. And then I'm just like, this is very strange for me and you to be here. And I look, I don't look like you and you don't look like me. [BLANK_AUDIO] There's more of you than there are me. - Yeah. - I think it's definitely changed for the better than that respect. - I know. So, yeah, we will continue to stay in touch. We're not dinner, we're gonna hang out. - Excited. - Yeah, thank you so much, Megan, for being on Office Drama. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and I'll catch you in the next. Bye! Shout out to our drama llamas on Patreon. I actually shared a little BTS blog prepping for today's episode with Megan in that video. I said this episode took me, I don't know, like, 12 hours to put together. I slept at 3 a.m. the night before. Anyways, Megan actually flew in that morning from DC. She took an 8 a.m. flight, gone into LA at like 12 p.m., checked into the hotel, scarfed down her lunch, and then came directly to the studio to shoot the episode. And I think we allotted a few hours to kinda get to know each other, warm up, figure out what the scope of the conversation would look like, and then, Sophia Sun, who's another tech creator, who just moved to LA, who I went to college with, who's also a mutual for both of us, came out with us, and I took both the girls out to dinner. I sincerely feel like I've been kinda out of the tech creator scene by nature of being in LA, and being pregnant, and not being able to travel as much, but this community is so near and dear to my heart. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I think you can definitely tell that I was pretty shy in this episode. It's a sensitive topic, and like, this is my first time, really getting to know Megan. I wanted to be super respectful, but also get to the deep juicy stuff and get some insightful information. I don't like how reserved I came off after reviewing the episode, 'cause you know, this is not how I usually am. I'm usually way more playful and way more cheeky. But I think that I just like took this conversation very seriously. Personally, I walked away from today, getting an inside peek into Megan's inner world, like how she felt. Where her head space was at, while going through the entire brand trip experience and posting that first video, and seeing the flood of comments come in. And knowing how positive everything played out on the grounds in person, hindsight is always 2020. It's just so easy to say what someone should have or should not have done, and given the context of tech events, she's attended so far, I feel like her actions did make a lot of sense. And it's so fascinating to see how Megan processed her experience, quote unquote, getting canceled, and how she picked herself back up, learned from the experience, and is continuing to move forward. And I think that's the best result. And that kind of resilience is really, really hard. And she did this so fast. I'll be able to see her next month again, because we're both speaking at create and cultivate, so exciting. Anyways, thank you for listening to this episode with an open mind. I hope today opens up a lot more doors for us to have super interesting conversations in this industry moving forward. Just some insider information. It's not easy being a host for this kind of stuff. Like, you need to build a strong bedrock of content. You need to build rapport. You need to build trust. So there's so much back in work in order to make something like this happen. So thank you for being here. Thank you for trusting me and listening to this entire episode. And hopefully, this is my first one of many. As always, I will see you in the next one. Bye-bye.