234. "We have $100k+ in debt. Will we ever enjoy life?" (Part 1)

One of my favorite articles in the New York Times was a weekend edition of what this model does on his days off. Now you look at this guy, he looks beautiful, he looks amazing, super ripped, and on his Saturdays, his day off, what does he do? He does like a seven mile jog, he then does yoga, then he goes and meets friends for brunch, they showed what he eats, and all of it made it very clear why he looks the way he does. I was blown away, and I loved it. Because finally I could see what it takes to look like somebody like that. He shared all the behaviors he does that I had no idea people do. I'm kind of obsessed with what people who are good with something actually do. Like people who are really good with their nutrition, log into the menu of the restaurant they're going to before they get there so they can decide what they're going to order. What do you do if you're good with money? What are your special behaviors that you do that nobody else is doing? Well, I'm going to show you what those behaviors are so that you can become good with money as well. On Monday, November 16th, I'll show you what being good with money looks like. You can sign up at iwt.com/live to join these special free events. Recently, my producer told me she's been struggling with sleep, so I asked our sponsor, Lisa, to send her a new mattress. And here's what she said. I've struggled with insomnia for years. Now, every night when I get in bed, I'm instantly relaxed and asleep within minutes. The Lisa mattress is somehow soft and supportive at the same time. It's the most comfortable mattress I've ever slept on in my life. That's from our producer. Lisa makes premium beautifully crafted mattresses designed specifically for how you sleep, whether it's on your stomach, side, or back. They make it easy to figure out which mattress is best for you. You just take their two-minute sleep quiz. And Lisa mattresses were named the best hybrid and best memory foam mattresses by the New York Times wire cutter. And they come with free shipping, easy returns, and a 120-night sleep trial. Go to lisa.com for 25% off mattresses plus get an extra $50 off with promo code remit exclusive for my listeners. That's L-E-E-S-A.com promo code remit for 25% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Lisa.com promo code remit. What do you think about this debt? It's terrible. It's frustrating and sad and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight. Are you angry? I'm angry at Michael. I'm angry at myself. My relationship with money. It's not a good relationship. He's at my now where he should be able to retire, but he can't. I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life. I don't want to work till I'm 75. I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives. At this age, I thought we'd already be there. Do you believe that you'll die with your debt? It's going to be a stretch. There wasn't time one time where I considered taking my purse and my keys and walking out. I'm at my wit's end that I don't want to keep doing this. Imagine making great money, but still being in debt. Where's the money going? Why are we in this situation? Why do we feel trapped by our debt? Today, we're going to dive into a story that is very familiar for millions of couples, high income, high stress, and no real plan. Listen to this line from the application. He has run up credit cards buying electronics. He has little to no retirement saved and we make way too much to be so stressed about money. I do not know how much longer I can keep doing this. When I see phrases like, "I don't know how much longer I can keep doing this," that is assigned. The stakes are very high. Today, I'm speaking with Imani, 52 years old, and Michael, who is 65. They've been married for 24 years, but they have not spent a single one of those years aligned about money. What's interesting is that they've worked with money coaches in the past, yet they keep finding themselves stuck in the same cycle. Michael, overspending and avoiding and Imani trying to take control of their finances. I'm about to look at their numbers, but first, I want to hear from you, when was the last time you were not on the same page with your partner? Tell me the specifics. I want to see them in the comments. I read everyone. Was it not agreeing where to eat out or how much you should keep in your checking account? Let me know in the comments the last time you were not on the same page with your finances. Now, I'm looking at their conscious spending plan, which breaks down their key numbers, including their net worth income and where they spend their money. It's the same tool I use in every episode. Assets, $603,315. Investments, $770,000. Keep in mind, Michael is 65 years old already at retirement age. Savings, $8,523, debt, $601,000, and over $100,000 of that debt is high interest debt. Net worth, $780,000. All of this is raising a lot of questions. Let's get started with Imani and Michael. Imani, you mentioned in your application that you've been married for 24 years, and you said something that really caught my eye. You said, "I want to separate our finances." In fact, I am so upset that I suggested we combine them four years ago. Why do you feel that way? I feel like we spoke better or related better when the finances weren't combined. I feel like we are both like all in the account all the time. Like it'll be like, "Well, why is there a $7.95 charge?" And he'll ask me, "Well, did you go to the spa?" You know what I mean? Like, part of it is taking away the autonomy of the other person. And so it feels like I'm being I'm monitoring an adult. That's not fair for me to try to be his mother. Originally, we did have separate accounts, and then we had a joint account for bills. About four years ago, I was like, "We just need all the paychecks to go into one account, and that way we can monitor and get a control over our finances." And then what I saw was out of control hole. And so it stressed me out. Wow. Okay. I have lots to unpack there. Michael, what's your reaction to what the money just said? It seemed to be less complicated when they were separate because it was always like, "Well, I know certain things had to be taken care of, so I can't spend somewhere else." So I had to make sure that the money was there. When it became a joint account, it's like, "Well, yeah, I can go here and buy this and buy that because there's money in the account." Would you say that when you combined your accounts that the spending got sloppy? Very, big. Yeah, it did. Okay. So, I mean, just to ask the obvious question, why should you just separate it? We've discussed that. Separating it. And? But we didn't come up with a concrete plan, as far as how we're going to do it. Right. Yeah. All right. So it's still on the table to separate your finances. Yeah. But I mean, you know, when you talk about, well, people, when you hear about marriages, right, it's like it's supposed to be a coming together and you're supposed to have things together. And I have friends who have joint accounts and everything goes well in with us. Yeah. It is not. Yeah. And of course, you know, if you were to separate your finances, I suspect things would not magically fix themselves. I suspect it would open up a whole new can of worms because a lot of ways it's a symptom probably figure that out a little bit more. So Imani, you mentioned that sometimes Michael will say he's looking at the expenses. He goes, "Did you go this spa?" What is the next sentence after that? From him or from me? You'll say, "Yes, I went to this spa." Right. And then what does he say? Nothing. Oh, so it's just a question like, "Hey, did you go to the spa? Did you buy this thing?" That's it. Yeah. And you'd usually come to when I'm asking him about, "Did you go to Best Buy again?" Oh, oh, okay. Let me flip that then. So you asked, "Did you go to Best Buy?" And then Michael, what do you say to that? I want to say, "Yeah, I want to Best Buy." Okay. And then I go, like, I leave it there. Okay. And then how do you respond? Why am I doing this? Just have the conversation in front of me. Go ahead, Imani. What's this 152 at Best Buy? I went to Best Buy to buy some SSD drives for my computer. Did you need more SSD drives? I needed one with more capacity. So about one that was on sale and I got a bigger. But don't you have like 10? Yes, I do. Most of them are filled up with different documents and data. So yeah, but that wasn't in the budget. Yeah, I know. But I'll get the money back in there. How are you going to get the money back in there? The budget is based on the budget. You can't put the money back. I'll make sure it gets packed. Okay. Whoa. Okay. That was quite interesting. What just happened in that conversation? Michael. I would say that I probably deflect it. I was going to make sure the money get back into the account, but I didn't tell you how it was going back into the account. I agree. And did you actually have a plan for how to get the money back in the account? I had a good range of dates that I could put the money back. Okay. And did the money get put back in the account? I think it did. What? I can't say for sure. What? Right. That doesn't sound Like a plan to me, but I agree. All right. All right. Fine. And then what else do you notice about the conversation, the chess pieces? What was each person's role in that conversation? I felt like that was in the microscope. Hmm. That's an interesting metaphor. So if you're under a microscope, then what is Imani? See is the investigator. Oh, wow. That's powerful. Okay. So you have the investigator and the investigated in that example. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Imani, how about you zoom up, analyze it. For me, it's frustration with Michael spending particularly at best by, right? And he told me that he needed more of something he already had. So it was my frustration at Michael for buying something that he already has multiples of that I don't see the need for that wasn't in the budget. Here we go again buying things in excess. And to me, there's no such thing as putting money back. Okay. What would you say each person's role was? I felt like the the momo, the parent, honestly, or the one who watches over the budget and then you have Michael in the role of I'm going to get what I want, you know, I'm a spend and get what I want because it's my I make money and I'm going to spend it. Is that true? I mean, he does make money. He does. So if he's making money, just out of curiosity, can he spend it on an SSD drive? Sure. He could spend it on, but does he need 12 SSD drives? I don't know. I don't particularly care either. I'm just, I'm asking, is this a joint issue? Like, is it coming from joint money or is it an individual issue in which case, if he wants to spend it on garbage, he could spend it on garbage as far as I'm concerned. What do you think? It's a joint. In my mind, it's the joint, right? Because we decided that we would each take a certain amount of cash out of the account and he takes the cash out and spends the money out of the account. Oh, wow. That's my issue. Okay. I got you. Can I tell you what I observed from your conversation, which I thought was very revealing. So many things happened in like 60 seconds. That's why I love seeing the actual conversations. First off, the fact that Imani, you were like, what's this charge? Like already read flag number one for me, that one partner is looking over the other's shoulder, not blaming you at all. I know that it happens in reverse as well, but if one person has to spend money unexpectedly from the joint account, it's their responsibility to actually bring it up. So that's already kind of like, that's an interesting thing. Next up, it kind of turned into like some kind of inspector gadget type of like, Imani became the SSD investigator. You know, are you sure? How many terabytes are we talking about? It's like, I don't really think that's what we're going for here. You know, I get the sense maybe like, I don't think you're an SSD investigator. And then we had Michael who quickly was kind of like, you could kind of see the tone, Michael. It was a bit of like a young boy who's got caught doing something. And it was like, you know, yeah, I did go there. No further explanation. Just going to stop and hope that nobody pays attention. And then I'll put the money back. What's that? Again, it's a very boyish sort of answer, you know what I mean? We're talking about a grown man here. Basically, yes, our conversations kind of go. Yeah, I know. Right. That's why I'm here. That's why we're here too, because it's like a say conversation. What we just saw play out was the parent child dynamic, which in my opinion is one of the most toxic patterns in a relationship around money. In my new book, Money for Couples, I break down exactly why it is so toxic. You know, your partner is not a child. Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult. The parent child dynamic also creates resentment on both sides. The parent feels burdened and exhausted. The child feels controlled and infantilized. And this dynamic creates ripple effects. The dynamic almost never stays just in the financial realm. It seeps into other parts of the relationship. It erodes trust and intimacy. I even call it sexual kryptonite, because it's very difficult to feel attracted to your partner when you feel like you are parenting them. If you cannot get on the same page with money, I recommend you pick up a copy of Money for Couples and use the word for word scripts in the book. It's also available as an audiobook. But let's zoom out now. This isn't just about roles or dynamics. There's also real numbers to consider. Michael is 65. They've amassed $600,000 in total debt. And a hundred K of that over a hundred K is consumer debt like credit cards, personal loans, car loans. That type of debt typically carries higher interest rates, which means it can really snowball fast. We're going to untangle the specifics of their debt when we get to their conscious spending plan. But here's what I can already see. And money has a strong need for control. It's actually no surprise that she's frustrated, maybe even fed up. Honestly, if I were in her situation, I would want control, and I would be angry too. What's more surprising is that this debt is something she's been trying to get control over for years. She's worked with several money coaches and yet nothing has changed. So what happened? Why didn't those approaches work? We're going to find out right after this. Okay, I understand that you have spoken to money coaches in the past. What was your experience with them? You know, we got, you know, a system, like an Excel file and a system of, you know, set these things up, but the work to do to maintain them. I felt like I was doing most of the getting that done. We were supposed to set up like money dates, right? Like how do we come together and go over the finances? And the few times we did it, it was me at the computer, Michael sitting on the bed or on the counter or on the couch. And, you know, him looking up saying, "Which you need?" Right? As opposed to us, both being engaged and going through numbers and then getting frustrated. So part of it is, you know, I'll say, Michael, where are your numbers? We need to, we need to meet and go over budget. I'm gonna get the numbers. Yeah. I'm waiting for the numbers for the last eight weeks. That's, you know, until we did the conscious spending plan, I have been waiting on the numbers for two months. Hmm. Very true. Very true. This is a general pattern at home in money. Like you're driving things at home and he's, you're pulling him along. Michael, what do you think? I would say that I was more reactive, been proactive and I don't know that we ever set any rules and engagement on how we're gonna, you know, attack once we went to the counseling session. We never had any rules. So, we'd not have any rules if we didn't do something that rules broken, there were no consequences. Hmm. That's interesting. There were no consequences if the rules were, but what would be an example of a rule being broken? A rule would be like, okay, we're gonna meet Wednesday at 6 p.m. and we're gonna talk about how we're tracking our budget. Yeah. Are you generally reactive in life versus being proactive? I would say, in my professional life, I can't be, I can't be reactive, I had to be proactive. When I'm at whole, I kind of decompress and I don't have those same rules or restraints. Do you think long term, I do not, okay? And you money might find it surprising. I don't think, I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life. Tell me more. And money's nodding. Tell me more, Michael, that's quite an admission. Yes. It's kind of like I have a vision or I have an idea and I just kind of do it. What does that mean? There's no step. Well, I need to do this step first and if I need to do this step second, I need to do this step third. In my professional life, I do that. In my personal life and absolutely not. And money, would you agree? Yes. Okay. And how about for you? I'm proactive everywhere. Okay. All right. Would you agree with that, Michael? Yes, definitely. With that said, it's kind of at the point, well, you know, I have to be proactive. I got to take action. Or what? Either she's going to say, you know, that's it. I had enough or she's going to say, or she's just going to turn out and do our own thing. 24 years married. Yeah. Money would you agree? The stakes are pretty high. Yeah. Absolutely. I can't keep doing this. I refuse because, you know, he's at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can't because I cannot financially do all of this by myself, right? And I'm at the age, there's a, there's a pretty significant age difference between us. I'm at the age where I want to look at early retirement. Like he's already at retirement. Like I want to look at early retirement. I don't want to work to learn 75. I don't, I don't want to do that. And I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives. And at this age, I thought we'd already be there, right? Like I feel like, I feel like everything I'm behind, like we're behind because, you know, I know you're not supposed to look at other people, other people's lives, but we know too much to be in this situation like this is just dumb and frustrating and I pick myself and I'm mad at myself because I feel like the loss of control got us here like growing up I was so I was known to be so cheap that I pinched the copper offer penny that's what my mama used to say right like I knew where everything was I never went into debt and all that stuff and then you know the last several years it's just been out of control and I just I'm so sad about it okay hmm are you angry very who are you angry at I'm angry at Michael I'm angry at myself can I ask like the tough question here what makes both of you think that this time will be any different I'm hopeful that it'll be different because Michael has a tendency to listen to the other person advice right if it comes for me I could say the exact same things that you're gonna say but he's not gonna hear them if you say them he'll hear them and Michael please I'm not trying to be like me but that that's how it feels to me it's like if the internet says it or if you see it in a book it could be the same thing that I already said mm-hmm what the f*** listen to the people on the have you seen the comments I got the first thing I do is I go whatever you said I'm doing the opposite of that Michael listed to the internet I take your point Michael why is that you're nodding your head why is that hey that's a tough one you know my spend some time in all forces that's been a lot of time there on forces for a long time my life was very regimented I know I was gonna be all the time we and where how all of that when I got out that start to slip a little bit where it's like you know I've been living this rigid life and so now I have some some leverage to kind of go to the left or to the right go on yeah we we tried that or and that did work you know we tried this and this didn't work so to your point what's gonna be different this time for me was different this time I see the effect on what does it have not any money as far as our finances what effect I can see that she's really stressed out about it Michael do you ask him money for advice on money ever an extra sort of advice I think so yeah do you ever ask her for advice no I got only to be for myself on this my relationship with money has been it's not a good relationship that it was something that was never discussed when I was going up even when I was in the military and I was making a steady income it's just something that there was no coaching no learning on so it just kind of carried over from that after I got out of the military take me back what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up that's literally nothing would you say your family was middle class upper middle lower metal what would you describe it I would say lower middle I was raised mostly by my my grandmother and I didn't have a warrant for anything even though money wasn't discussed I always had what I needed when I needed when did you go into the military I was 18 okay so straight out of high school you went to the military well I actually pre-enlisted before I graduate from high school I knew of my heart of heart where I grew up at that that I wasn't going to stay if I was stayed there two years three years I would got caught up in drugs not a big day really what part of the country if you don't mind my asking same little area all right and did you have other family members who had been in the military yes my uncle he served in the in the Navy okay cool so you signed up you go in what was your first impression when you got there and the first time that I had ever had broccoli and what'd you think oh like oh this is a neat food I never had this before it was it was I opened for me mm-hmm like that in any military person basic military training you're training basic training with people from all over the world all different aspects of life so what surprised you the most in those first few weeks the the rigor in the discipline doing my career in military everything was everything was very regimented nothing could get out of control or you would be disciplined for it it was very regimented you knew where you're going to be when you're going to be there how long you want to be there and it was like clockwork so that was very refreshing you liked it I loved it wow what did you love about it I didn't have to worry about oh where I was going to live what I was going to eat mm-hmm what I what I was going to put on if I had money I know I was going to get paid every two weeks regardless of of the situation so in a way that it's kind of like being I won't say baby said it cause believe believe me being in the military like then baby said it but there were things that I didn't have to worry about that my civilian counterparts have to worry about right and then there was the opportunity to get educated travel and uh make money as I progress through the ranks okay and did you plan to stay for a long time I did not whoa I did not I did I my plan was to do 48 years I'll save my money and then go to college but I got I got to travel live in different parts of the country and live in different parts of the world and before I was 30 years over had lived in three different foreign countries mm-hmm so I saw a lot of the world you see it with the money no no this would be four we met you know this is well now it was in the military at the eight years I was so I was in for the long haul how long did you stay in total stayed in 20 years and 21 days whoa is there something about 20 years that is when you're eligible doing my trip to uh to retire with full retirement from the military great okay great how long ago did you retire uh I retired in 1998 a whole different lifetime ago why right no kidding what did you do after you retired I went into uh I went into manufacturing uh basically the same uh same skills and training that I got in the military at transfer over to uh to a civilian sector and I went into manufacturing and I have been in manufacturing since 1998 wow what what do you think about the fact that as a civilian you didn't have that structure that you used to have in the military uh interesting that you asked that because I remember my first a million job and I won't mention the company but I had a manager uh when he did my performance review he said to his frustration with me was that I I worked very well off a list mm-hmm and I was like wait what like it's like a fish being told you swim in water you're like huh we're right I'm like wait I was like wait what uh basically what he's trying to tell me is I need to be more uh I guess creative innovative and I got it create with would there be another word there he needed you to be more maybe it starts with the p p r o p r o proactive yeah what do you think I think so yeah and Monty what do you say I agree I mean I think that that is exactly right that he I could see him coming out being list list list driven but he talks a lot about you know he had to be so regimented when he was in the military and out of these out no structure right like it's just a hot mess express what would you do with the money that you made in the military uh we'll tell you that had a good time mm-hmm uh I did buy a couple vehicles uh right out there she uh we get a burger if I go buy another vehicle this was after I got the military so you had two sons and then you're like I'm gonna go buy a car oh yes okay nothing that was planned nothing that was discuss what did you just like walk in and just buy it that day oh basically yes holy s**t this is blowing my mind this is I never bought a car when I was growing up it took us one week to buy a car and that's when we knew the car we wanted my dad would take us in there we'd freaking have breakfast at the dealership this I'm not kidding we would sit there we'd negotiate and then we'd literally go home and come back the next day it was a family affair all of us the whole week that's amazing because I would the money would call me and ask me where I was at and I'd be like I'm at the dealership and then I would click really yes so this is like 20 years ago 20 to 25 years ago yeah yeah every time we made a major like half a major life event or like he said every time we had a kid he'd drive up in a new car look what I got what is that what's the connection is it like a celebration I don't know I guess I kind of used it as a celebration hey we got we got new sign uh so I'm gonna get a uh we're gonna get a nice vehicle to take new sign home man you if you I prefer a baskin robins cake yeah yeah 35 bucks when I was a kid we could never afford it let's get it now fantastic I've been 20, 20, I agree. Every so often, I visit a military base and speak to them about personal finances and careers. I remember one year they had this incredibly detailed minute by minute schedule. 0545, assemble for PT, 0545 to 0555, walk to PT, 0600 to 0700 PT and so on. I loved it. I love the details, the logistics that had to happen in order for it to work that clearly. But I can also imagine what living in that kind of environment would have done to me long term. And this is a classic example of how a rigid, structured environment like the military can shape someone's mindset long after they leave. You get a steady paycheck, housing is covered, you know exactly where to be and when there's a system for everything, including your money. But when you leave that structure behind, there's a major gap. And a lot of people simply do not replace that structure with anything. They go from a fully controlled environment to complete freedom. That word freedom, note how we describe it in America as if freedom is always a good thing and that freedom can be overwhelming. I suspect that's what we're seeing with Michael. He says he's proactive at work, but at home, he checks out. And because money was always handled for him through benefits and automatic deposits and the TSP, he never really had to build the skills to manage it himself. Now he's out of the military 65 years old and in financial trouble. And Michael is not the only retired veteran dealing with this. According to American consumer credit counseling, nearly three quarters of military families carry credit card debt and they are twice as likely as civilians to owe $10,000 or more. Meanwhile, Imani is handling all of the day-to-day finances and she's looking at her own future realizing I might not be able to retire because he's not stepping up. This is what happens when someone avoids building a system of their own. The default becomes I'll just wait for someone else to handle it and in a marriage that simply does not work or in my opinion, it should not work. They're not 25 years old, by the way. They don't have decades to figure this out. It has to happen now. And that is why we're going to get into the actual numbers right after this. What was it like to create the conscious spending plan together? Oh, over me. This is what it was like. It was right here. This is how we did it. Okay. Hold that out. So I'm going to describe it for people listening, not watching. Imani is pulling out one of these big pieces of butcher paper and it's got like a lot of categories and numbers a lot. I mean, this is like four feet high. It's quite large and filled out a lot of numbers. Okay. Which I'm seeing gross net. I'm seeing assets and apple credit card, et cetera. Okay. So they did it all on paper. Okay. I don't mind everybody does their own way and did you do it together? Yes. But we did. I guess he was going slower. I sometimes can get a little frustrated and I want things to move faster. And so I'll just take it and do it. I'm like, we just need to get this over with. But I was trying to be deliberate about letting him write the things down and see. Well, I could tell you how I felt really. So as we're putting, you know, all the categories in there and putting numbers in there, things kept popping in my head. Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, I forgot I got this coin set over here. Or I forgot that I have this account over here with this bit coin in it. So it's some point for me to kind of get frustrated because it's like, I got all this things. But I don't have any control over it. It's just there. Do you mean you have extra money that you were not accounting for or extra expenses? I have extra money that like I have these accounts set up. Did I have money in until I go into that account? I remember I was like, Oh, I forgot I had money in there. You know, I'll open up a bit corner account or a small stop trading account in the money. I'll be there and now I'll kind of just put it there and park it. All right. Let's take a look at the CSPS. All right. Imani, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for the entire box, please? Assets six hundred and three thousand three hundred and fifteen investments, seven hundred and seventy thousand thirty one savings eight thousand five hundred and twenty three debt. Six hundred and one thousand four hundred and sixty eight total net worth seven hundred and eighty thousand four hundred and one. What do you think about those numbers? Terrible. Why do you say that? I feel like the investment number should be higher at our age. I feel like the debt number should be lower, much, much lower. I feel better than I felt I thought it was going to be close to negative quite a big difference between negative and seven hundred eighty thousand dollars. I know. I had the opposite of a reaction. I don't think I vocalized it with the Imani. When I saw the number, I went down. Now, if I get rid of this or if I want to down this, we'll be on that word for be able million dollars easy. How can I get rid of some of the exit access that we have in our household to push that number up? Whoa. Okay. This is, I'm already seeing you're going to make my job easier for me. I like that. Let's take a look at the gross monthly income. This time, Michael, I'd like for you to give me the combined gross monthly income number, please. Okay. So gross monthly income number is and is twenty two thousand four hundred and four. All right. So combined the two of you make two hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars a year. That's a lot of money that we could be leveraging better than we have been. All right. Michael says a lot of money. What do you say, a money? It is. It's less than it was. Oh, you know, I took a pay cut. Are we are we into depressing time already? I thought we're just talking about the hell's happening right now. Is this a lot of money or not? It is a lot of money. Stop right there. Two hundred sixty eight thousand dollars a year is a lot of money. You are what you are correct. Okay. Okay. It's less than we've had in the past, but yes, it is a lot of money. Any kids living in the house? Yes. We have two sons that are actually adults, but they still live here. How old? Twenty and twenty five. Okay. Fine. And, um, all right. Let's continue looking at the numbers here. Okay. I like we have a four one K contribution in here. Very nice fixed costs. The money. What's that number right there? It's eighty three percent. That is why I feel broke. Yeah. And that is why I, I, that is why I wrote in. Yeah. That's, that's it. Right there. That's the number that explains a lot of why you feel stressed out about money. That's one reason. Let's keep going investments at one percent. And of course, the one percent is a five twenty nine. A five twenty nine for 20 year olds. What? What's that about? Okay. It is, it has been there for a long time. And I just haven't stopped it. Why don't you do the same thing for your retirement? Like, you're right. Like, oops. I tripped and fall, fall and put a hundred fifty dollars a month into my. How come nobody ever says that to me? All right. Savings at seven percent. Okay. And we have a six hundred bucks is going towards an emergency fund. Four hundred bucks is something called separate savings. What's that? Are separate savings accounts? Okay. That's like your individual money. Okay. And then your guilt-free spending suggests it's nine percent or fourteen hundred dollars. I don't believe that. Do you? I don't believe that even though it's higher. Yeah, absolutely. Where is the math not adding up? Michael has, you know, 1012 laptops, right? What the 12 laptops? Just I'm just, I'm a tech nerd. Do I need 10 laptops? No, I don't. I would pick me perfectly fine with one laptop. Send the role with none of my electronics right now at this point. I've got to the point now where I've been able to do what I want to do for so long. It's kind of got me in trouble financially. But I still have those assets that I can get rid of it and recoup some of that and add back to that net worth. All right. That's interesting. Okay. So you've had a conversation about, could we, you know, could Michael sell some of his stuff and Michael sounds like you're actually interested in pushing that net worth number up. Very much so. The math isn't mapping. Oh, I have a feeling it's right here. Six hundred and one thousand dollars of debt. Can you tell me what's in this debt? Yeah, so I actually, can I ask Michael that Michael? So the mortgage is in there. Mortgage is how much? I think right now it's two hundred and ninety five thousand. Okay. Two ninety eight. Two nine eight. Yeah. Okay. Tonight. Okay. What's next, Michael? There's a heat lock loan. It might be 50,000. The heat lock is 65. Okay. From 50 to 65 K. All right. Your money is a student loan, I think that's eighty five thousand. The automobiles, I would say 10,000 on a vehicle. Think of your money. O's thirty five thousand on a vehicle. Okay. Forty five K total. What else? My consumer debt. I have a 401 K loan that's forty five. No, I'm sorry. It's, uh, it's not forty five. It's thirty seven. Okay. Then I also have credit card debt that's about eleven. Okay. Michael, I think, has more, he's got closer to sixty or seventy. All right. Let's shoot for the stars, seventy. Okay. Let's say seventy. Yeah. Okay, what do you think about all this debt? I'm embarrassed. That's terrible. I'm embarrassed. You know, I know better. I know better. And my debt was going back to school and I totally changed careers. And you know, that's the reason for my high salary. But I think the 401(k) loan was to consolidate. I did some things around the house. The HELOC includes a real estate investment that I made with someone. It'd be different if it was like all travel or something like that. I feel like I don't see the tangible for all the debt, right? And, you know, I want to be able to go on a cruise or go to somewhere without, you know, having to put it on credit cards. And we're not in that position. And I feel embarrassed because we have friends that can do that, right? I was talking to one of my girl, our mutual friends, the wife. And she was out of work. And, you know, she was like, oh, yeah, we have our savings. And listen, listen, listen. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, I'm like, good God, we would be in a mess, right? I'd have to like cash out 401(k)s to make it work or, you know, take on two or three jobs to make up the stagger. And so I'm embarrassed at my big old age, you know, being in this kind of debt. And I don't think debt is a problem like if you're doing an investment or something like that, right? But the stuff we have to show for is, it's frustrating and sad. And it makes me want to cry and scream and fight, to be honest. All right, I appreciate the candor. I would be frustrated too. If I was in my 50s and 60s, if I had a high income, and in fact, used to have an even higher income. And like, where is it? All right. Where's the money? Yeah. And it can feel like insurmountable. It can feel like frustrating and hopeless. If you will give me the time, I would like to understand a little bit more about how we got here. Because when I start to understand that, hopefully we can figure out a plan to get out of here. I don't like seeing couples in debt. Certainly not in their 50s and 60s. So what do you say? Sure. Yep, and money, take me back to you as a child. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up? My mama has always been super, with always super good with money. Like, she had a budget, she shopped with lists. The dynamic in the house, my mom controlled the finances. And I remember her saying one time that her, my parents got married, young, that they combined money and my mom went in to get money. And my dad has spent her money. And she said that was it. They had separate accounts forever after that. My mama did not play that. Mama, very regimented with money, sent me to private school. You know, to me, it was about the budget and about being responsible with money. So I feel like I know better and knew better. What did she say to you about money? She talked about a lot about saving, right? We had our savings accounts and she would take us to deposit money. Like, we had to, when we got things, we had to, we could spend some, but we had to save some, right? It was always spend and save, spend and save. And we had our little bank books and she got me my first credit card when I went off to college. She co-signed for it. I used it responsibly initially. So she taught me a lot about, you know, writing down, buying stuff that you pay for, don't carry a lot of debt. You know, she paid cash for everything. She saved up. She took us on trips. You know, for my graduation present from high school, she took us to the Bahamas, my sister and I. And her best friend and her daughter. And we went to, for my 16th birthday, I went to Disney World, right? So, you know, we took trips and we had money. And she taught us to be responsible. And somewhere along the line, I got lost. Talk to me about that. Where was it that you got lost? I think what's I got married? Look, I did pretty good with my finances when it was just me because I bought a condo when I was single. But my first condo, bought my house. The first thing I bought with my first paycheck, I'll never forget was the sectional sofa and a coach bag. Nice. How'd you feel? Oh, I felt great. I still have that coach bag. And my mother just got rid of that sectional sofa last year. And I bought that in 1997. Wow. So, you know, I hold on to things. What happened when you got married? That caused your finances to deteriorate. I just didn't stay as disciplined, right? I felt like because Michael was spending, I had to make it up. And I didn't want the kids to have to want for anything. You know, wanted to get them all the things that they wanted or didn't want. Or I thought they should have wanted us to go on the trips. And, you know, Michael was busy buying cars. And I'm trying to, you know, do all the other stuff. And so, I was using my money to send the kids to camp. And, you know, things like that. And so, I felt like I lost the rigor and the discipline around money. When did you realize you had a problem? It was several years ago. We were, there's another financial guru whose program we were trying to follow. Because I was like, oh, we'll get out of debt. And it'll be great. Wait, who is it just so we know? Dave Ramsey. I'm happy that anyone goes on any financial journey as long as they end up at the right place. Yeah. Oh, you're welcome here. All right. So, what happened when you started under that plan? So, I couldn't get Michael to go in with me. Like, having Michael stick to a budget felt like pulling teeth. And it was work for me, right? Because the kids were young. So, I had, we were working shifts. I think I was on second. He was on third. So, we were like shifts passing tonight. We had a baby or a toddler and a elementary schooler. And so, it was a lot to manage. And I, you know, every day I wake up from like, man, if we'd have followed it back then, right? We would, we would have been debt-free and live in our best life. And, you know, all the, the baby steps and all that stuff. And we still have a baby step number zero. I'm struck by how Imani describes her relationship with money. She said it used to be good when it was just me. Then it was us. I suspect what's behind that is they've never had a series of substantive conversations about their relationship and money. Like many couples, they probably just slipped into it, dating, living together, kids, jobs, without ever stopping to establish plans and then to recalibrate them. And now they're surprised it's not working. Relationships don't run on autopilot. But most of us just slide right into some of life's most important decisions. Where should we live? If we have kids, what kind of parents do we want to be? How much money should we save and why? Most couples don't actually talk about these things. Believe it or not, most of us just coast until something goes wrong. So it starts to feel like you are constantly reacting to life because you actually are. Let's talk about the deeper issue. One partner grows, the other partner does not. Emani is clearly into personal growth. Remember, she said earlier she has dragged Michael to several coaches to tackle the very issue she wanted to talk about. She's clearly ambitious. She changed careers later in life. So the hard question becomes, have you outgrown your partner? This is an uncomfortable conversation, but it's very real and there's actual data to back it up. A major Swedish study found that after bariatric surgery, designed to help people lose significant weight, married people were more likely to get divorced. Another study showed that women who won the lottery were more likely to end their marriages shortly after. This is one of the reasons that when I was dating, one of the top three things I was looking for was someone who was into self-development. I knew I was and I knew that over the course of my life, I would change and I would grow. And I wanted someone who already had built that into their own life. And once you start growing, you want your partner to grow too. And I see it all the time. The person who has finally learned about money, they start offering advice to their partner and they get increasingly frustrated that their partner just ignores it. But be honest, and think back to three years ago, five years ago, if someone had told you then, you got to use a CSP, you got to automate your finances. You probably would have rolled your eyes too. That is the side of personal development that very few people talk about. You can grow faster than your partner. And they may never develop the same interest that you did. So what do you do? Have you talked about it? Not hinted, not fought. I mean a series of real honest conversations about how your life is changing and what it means for your relationship. Why? It's important to you. If this sounds familiar, if you are feeling something right now in your chest or in your stomach and you're going, "Oh my God, I think that might be me." Then I want to encourage you to join my Money Coaching program. It is designed to help couples like you stop spinning in circles, stop feeling like you have a wedge between you and actually start building a life together. Here's why it works. Money coaching does not just focus on the numbers, although we will help you understand your own finances. We dive into this psychology behind your financial decisions and the dynamics of your relationships. You're going to learn how to have actual productive conversations, how to align on your goals, even if you see things differently and how to create a plan that works for both of you. Plus, you'll have personal access to me. me during monthly coaching calls and a supportive community to hold you accountable. Imagine just having at least one hour a month where the two of you are talking about money in a guided format. Now you can come solo or you can bring your partner to the program either way. I know that it's going to help you. So if you are ready to start building your rich life together, join money coaching. You can sign up at iwt.com/moneycoaching I'll put the link in the description below as well. Does it feel hopeless now? We didn't follow it 20 years ago, so it's pointless to even start now. No, no. Definitely not pointless. As long as you have a breath in your body and air in your lungs, air in your lungs and life, no, there's always tomorrow, right? There's always the best time to start is now. And we're not as far behind like again, listening at all the people that you've talked to your partners. I'm like, ooh, they're bad to see. There's a way to turn this around. We just got to both be willing to do it because I'm tired. I'm tired of being the one to feel like I'm pulling, I feel like I'm pulling Michael all the time and I am tired. And I want Michael to retire. I don't want him to have to keep working forever. I want us to be like, oh, let's go. Let's take us a radical. Like I want to go frolic around Europe, right? I want to go, you know, do all those things. But. Michael, are you surprised hearing and money share this? We've discussed it before, probably not to this level, but again, I can sense the frustration. And remember when she told me, hey, we're going to be doing this with Remy. I was actually kind of relieved. That actually doesn't surprise me though, Michael. Yeah. It doesn't surprise me because this is yet one more way of delegating work from you to somebody else. In this case, me. Do you want somebody to just tell you what to do with the money? I'm looking forward to advice. Great. I love that. I'm not looking for anybody to do the work. I love it. I love it. You work in. You just tell me in which direction I need to be going in versus what I think. Beautiful. You're here to play ball. That's great. That's what I want. My goal is to link or connect with someone that I can trust to manage the money and make sure that it goes in the right places, that it has some element of debt reduction, but at the same time, some element of investment, whereas you're reducing debt in that work, that work is increasing. Like a money manager that manages your household finances. You want someone who will reduce your debt, increase your net worth, and you stay pretty hands-off. No, I will monitor it, but somebody that knows a lot more about investing money, somebody that knows a lot more about what's the best way to reduce that extra number of amounts of debt. I don't have that knowledge to do with that. Now, let me ask you, Michael, because you all spoke to at least one money coach if not more. Presumably, they talked to you about debt when it happened as a result of that. I would say that I didn't have the discipline and rigor. You now? Yeah, because it's affecting my wife, and I can see that it's affecting. What about you? Me? Definitely. I know we're going to get to this, but my worst life right now is if I can sell everything I had and sit in the room with just a book in a my tie, that would be my rich life. What? Really? I never heard that on this podcast, making my life so easy. Is this for real? Yeah. I'm serious. What the hell? Hold on. Turn that camera around for a second. Show me what's in this room right now. Well, so right now, I'm remote. I work remote. Okay. Will you send me a picture of like the 10 laptops and all that stuff? Yeah. And more, you'll be like you say, you'll be like, what the f**k? Okay. Boom. I love that. I hope you shocked me. All right. That's good. Yeah. When I look at, you know, when you say assets, I think there's more there than what that figure shows. Just on what I have in the household. Like computers and stuff? Computers. One time I was heavy into music, so I have some pieces. Hey, Monty, any surprises hearing what Michael just told us? Absolutely. I said, what the f**k you just like you did? What surprised you? The whole, if I could, if Michael saying, if he could sit in a room with just a book, absolutely did not believe it. I absolutely do not, unless something changed in the last couple of weeks, I don't believe it because to me, the way you spend your money is what you value. Right? And I get being a tech head. I understand one and a half a hobby. I do. I get it, right? Because they're things that I like, right? I love converse sneakers. I have 20 pairs, but converse don't cost a thousand dollars. A pool. A pool. Right? And so, you know, I understand that Michael is concerned about, you know, me packing up and leaving. Or he said stuff to like, she, go, you're going to put me out, it has crossed my mind a time of three or four or five, right? Is this a joke or is this serious? No. I'm serious. Okay. We've had that, we've had that conversation and he'll say that. I don't joke about divorce with my wife, ever, never, ever. I just want to understand, is this like, has this joke gone on for a long time? Is this, is there a cultural thing that I'm missing here? Because like, I also don't know any Indian couples that joke about ever. And I just want to understand because it, to me, is like quite serious. That's, yeah, that's, that's, that's all that's interesting. I think part of this is called, do you, when you say I'm in money? Maybe. For me, I mean, I think we're joking most of the time, but Michael, there are times where I'm serious, like there, there was a time, one time where I consider taking my purse and my keys and our youngest son and walking out. I can, I can see that, I can see that. I knew, I knew it was getting to that point. Okay. Which is why I, I wrote in, because I, I'm at my wits in, right, like I don't want to keep doing this. Okay. It's serious. All right. We all agree, something big has to change. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. Michael, are you at all worried about not being able to retire? I would be remiss if I say that I wasn't realistically. Do I think I, I will retire? I would, I would say as far as full-time work, yes, moving away from full-time work and going into consulting, because at this point in my career, as long as I've been doing it, as long as I've been certified in it, I would receive, I would say that I'm at a certain level of mastery of what I do. But based on my experiences and my education of the different Fortune 500 companies that I worked for, I believe they will always be consulting work for me to do. Okay. All right. My goal is not to, is a realistic goal, it's going to be a stretch. So if I look at my current savings and my 401(k)s, if I stay on that trajectory and my 401(k)s, they will exceed my debt that I currently carry. My concern is, what do I leave my family? No, that's, many, many people, especially men, they, they see themselves as a provider and they will often, first, they start off by, you know, taking on work so they can provide for their family. Often, they might be earning good money, they spend a lot of money sometimes too. They're not often, like, tightly interwoven with the finances, that's what's happened here. Maybe they rack up debt, maybe not. But eventually, when I ask them questions about their own financial situation, they often appear relatively nonchalant, it's okay, like I'll be fine, I can consult, et cetera. But the thing I care about is passing it on to my kids. I'm actually concerned about the fact that you're passing on an example that it's okay to be in tons of debt. You could give them a big old check, they'll just burn it like you've burned it. You could pour it. So the most valuable thing in my opinion, you could pass on would not be $25,000 or $250,000, but rather an example of what it looks like to be effective with money. To me, that is generational wealth. First, how does that strike you? I think it's, it's point of. Michael, your answer was, in my opinion, not particularly inspiring and not a great answer, because I was like, are you concerned about not being able to retire? You were like, well, I'll be able to work. What I'm concerned about is like giving something to my kids. I'm like, wait, so we just skipped over from you being in your 60s to dying. What about the rest of your life? No joy, no travel, no joy. - No, nothing, huh? - I don't like to travel. I'd like to travel to somebody, so-- - Where, where's the money coming from? - Yeah, that port, that port, right? - All right, all right. So there's problems here. - Mm-hmm. - Okay, and you know, just to summarize what I saw, we have no, since childhood, no talking about money, developmental years, you know, in your teens and 20s and 30s, it was like somebody else basically handled for me, whatever money I made, maybe I'm saving a little, but I'm spending a lot, enter the civilian world, and just like spending a ton of money, and after 20, 30 years, I have tons of debt in a very complex system that does not make it easy to talk about. By the way, I also don't really talk to my wife about these numbers. Okay, all right, and money. You know, I'm curious, you mentioned wanting to travel. You mentioned things like a sabbatical. I wonder for a second if you can just tell me like, I bet you've thought about your rich life. What is it? - Oh, absolutely. It is going to Europe for three months at a time or going to an island, right? Just say, hey, guys, let's go, right? Let's go spend time frallicking. I want to go frallick, right? I have worked hard. They came hard, went back to school in my 40s with two kids and a full-time job and a husband and a household, went back to law school, right? And did that? - Damn. - It switched careers. I did that in 2015 to 2019. - That is insane. Congratulations. - Thank you. So, I'm no stranger to hard work. But at this time, when I envisioned my life as a child, at this point, I would be wealthy, right? I'd be able to own my time and not be a slave and have on gold and handcuffs. I want my investments to work for me and I want to go and travel to all the places and go to the premieres and I want to go to cons and to Martha's Vineyard and all those things, right? I want to do the boozing people's stuff. - All right, I hear you. I like that. It's what I especially like is that you've come on a journey and I like that you have a vision. It's obvious you've thought about this, which gets, I could tell it's exciting to you. It gets me excited. Michael, how do you feel hearing that? - Well, I'm excited for, I think that's where they go. She's worked hard and I think she deserved that. - And do you want to go to some of those places too? - Sure, I mean, I traveled early in life. Before I was 30 years old, I had lived in three different foreign countries, so I saw a lot of the world. - You see it with the money? - No, no, this will be four we met. This is when I was in the military and I did a little trouble at that, I got in the military. So I think she deserves the opportunity to be able to do that because I got to do it and I'm gonna say I'm dying. - Yeah, right. - Michael, what's your rich life? - My rich life is to declutter, get rid of some of the material things that I have. - I don't believe you. - I'm serious, I'm so done with it. - But wait, okay, if this is true, maybe I'm wrong. When was the last time you did a semi-serious declutter? - I think we've done two in the garage, we actually paid somebody to come in and assist us in it. - Okay. - Again, it didn't stick. - So your rich life is to declutter and? - Get rid of this debt. - Okay. - And just simplified not life. Just really have a simple life. I'm more than I deserve. - Okay. - I'm gonna help you come up with an even more powerful vision of a rich life. Okay. Imani, I see you nodding over there. How come? - Because I feel like everything that he says, I don't know if it's because he's looking at the effect of things on me, right? I want Michael to have a vision of his rich life. You talked about I wanna travel and all that and he didn't say that, right? And so for me, it feels like he's like, oh, I've lived my life and I've traveled the world. You go do that by yourself. And I don't wanna do life by myself. If I wanted to life by myself, then I'll just go to life by myself. I wouldn't have rode into his program. I would have just said, you know what? I'm over it. I'd have cashed out for a 401k, paid off my net, take my children and just go. - Wow. Hearing the contrast between their rich life visions is honestly heartbreaking. And the layers here are striking. Michael and Imani's vastly different experiences with money growing up and how they manage it today and mostly how they envision their futures. Now I see a generational issue here as well. Michael's backstory reveals an upbringing that did not encourage him to dream beyond survival. It was earning an income, landing on his feet and I wanna account for his background, but I also don't wanna let it distract from the larger issue. Another striking layer here is the prototypical gender dynamics at play. Imani, she's got this bold, vibrant vision of travel, adventure, a rich life full of wants, things that she wants to see. Meanwhile, Michael's dream is solitary, a book, a my tie and leaving money for the kids. Personally, as a man in my 40s, who has seen other men shrink and increasingly not wanna hang out with friends, increasingly only talk about things like a man cave. And even say things like, I hate people, I don't really wanna hang around anybody anymore. This leaves me really sad and disconnected. I am urgently fighting against that. I am creating guys trips. I'm trying to hang with more friends. And from Imani's perspective, if that were my partner, it would honestly make me feel hopeless. And to make matters even more frustrating, he seems to be responsive to another man's advice, but not his own wives. Imani has said point blank, she's considering leaving, and I believe her. If you can't even agree on what a rich life looks like, by this point in life, what are the chances they can actually make the huge changes needed? We are going to answer that question in a very surprising part two next week. Not only are we going to finish this conversation, but I sent Imani and Michael away and had them come back with actual changes, and you are going to see what happens. Specifically, where I shared some actual scenarios from our partners at FASIT around exactly what they need to do if they want to reach their retirement goals. Will they do it? Will they even come back? What surprising things will they have done? Trust me, you will not want to miss next week's part two. FASIT is an SEC registered investment advisor investing involves serious risk and past performance is not a guarantee of future performance or success. I'm not a member of FASIT. I have an incentive to endorse FASIT as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. My opinions are included and should not be interpreted as a recommendation or research regarding any investment or investment strategy, legal or tax advice. If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply or you can become a member of my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In money coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call and I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out Money Coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching.