We Are Water People

[MUSIC] Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in today. This is Bailey Flannery here, and I am with two family chiefs from the Wyandotte of Androgen Nation, Sue Chacha and Linda Philip heck. So Sue and Linda, how are you both doing today? Very well, thank you. Good, thank you. Good, good to hear. Well, thank you so much for being here today. It really is a pleasure and an honor to be speaking to two members of the nation. Just to get us started, why don't you tell us a little bit about your history with Detroit? Let's start with Sue actually. Sue, have you lived there for a long time or are you new to the Detroit area? What's your relationship with that? I've been around the Detroit area all my life. And then Linda, what about you? I was born and raised in Detroit. It was our family vacation sort of to go out by the river for picnics and what have you. We spend a lot of time on the river. And that actually leads me to my second question, which is, we can start with you, Linda, since you talked about this family picnics and growing up on the river. Do you feel that Detroit or, yeah, I'd say Detroit has shaped your relationship with the river in any particular way? It did in a way. It was the place to go to place. It was the picnic place. You could go to the river. You could go to Belial. You could go downtown and go to the boat races. Everything family did was really centered around the river. So it kind of made us water people. Ooh, I like that water people. Okay. So, and then Sue, what about you? Growing up, we went to the lake a lot more than the river. So we did go down river for events and did visit Belial and go to the zoo and stuff there. So we did visit down by the Detroit River. I know my grandpa used to fish and we used to go fishing out on the river as well as in the lakes. So very much connected through fishing or kind of sport like that. Got it. And then as far as your relationships stand with the river right now, how would you describe them? I think as I grow older and understand a little bit more of my ancestry and my culture, I am more drawn to the river to be able to, you know, just look at the river is amazing to me. To like go down by go see where my ancestors were. The water seems to call me if you if I could say that. And I just enjoy sitting by the river side and watching the the foul and you know, I love fishing so I think as I've grown older, I understand the importance of it more. That's beautiful. And if I could ask you just a little bit more like it sounds as though you feel a connections with your ancestors or ancestry as you look at the river. What do you think has prompted that for you? You said you, you know, as you learned more about your history and your ancestry. Is there anything in particular that you think has really forged that connection with the river for you? I think being by gross eel and I think knowing that our ancestors used to pull their houses across the river and used to just do all their hunting and fishing and the wildlife that's around there as well as the fish and the birds. Just the nature in fact and what they how they lived is amazing to me. I just it just is more important to me now. And do you think there's something about the kind of continuity that they may have once or they did fish along the river and now you're fishing along the river? Do you think that makes you feel a little bit more connected to them? Absolutely. Absolutely. And how they lived and when you walk or you go down rivers and you say, oh you know there was long houses here, there was wigwams here, there was you know, people, why and that's there were why and that's that actually lived here and did everything by hand and just built things and mashed corn and lived on the river and survived by the river itself. So it's it is important to me. Yeah. I feel connection to it. Linda turning back to you. It's interesting because it sounds like your experience is growing up. Contrast to a sous quite a bit in the sense that do you mention that there was maybe that occasional fishing on the river or the occasional event but mainly your family did activities on the lake. But Linda it sounds like you did quite a bit on the river as a child. So how do you feel like your relationship has changed or do you feel it has changed throughout time? Well it's it's changed as I've grown older because I am in awe when I go to the river now as a child it was fun it was a picnic it was swimming it was just enjoyment going across a bridge. Now I look at it and I think about my grandfather who wrote a canoe across the river and paddled back and forth on a regular basis thinking nothing of it. We had family and Windsor and it was nothing to go across to Canada to visit the family. River was transportation it was a way of getting places and seeing people and to take a boat across the river now you would take a power boat. He didn't always have access to a power boat they rode and thought nothing of it. It was just a matter of transportation the river was the highway and that's how you got places. Now I look at it and go I couldn't even fathom doing that. It's just the mace is me. I would so interesting too is that the river is this very fluid entity and yet it's treated as this very permanent and solid border between the Detroit area or America and Canada. Are there why and not of Andadon nation members across the border in Canada or how does that work for the nation as far as a border if that makes sense. We've always been considered the people of both sides of the water because we have villages on both sides. We still have members who live in Canada in Windsor and all the way out to Toronto and some up in Winnipeg. It wasn't a border it was just another road. You just lived there you traveled there. We just did everything on both sides of the river and it was very common. It wasn't unusual. I said it wasn't a border it wasn't the stopping place it was just how you got to the next village. Are your thoughts on through being viewed or treated as this border one really as you were saying it's for the why and not people just another means of travel or it's another means of passing through from one village to the other. It was easier it was easier to be with everybody. You didn't have to stop and wonder am I going in the wrong country am I doing something against somebody else's laws that didn't exist. We were all one people in all one world. We didn't have those kind of boundaries so in a way we lose a lot with the river being a boundary because we can't just be together. So it's really creating this impediment instead of it feeling like one whole united community the river being a means to unite that community it's also it's now being treated as a way to kind of segment it or keeping it divided in a sense. Yes very much so. So then turning back to story telling did you grow up hearing any stories in particular about the Detroit River. Oh we had a couple my grandfather supposedly was a rum runner for the purple gang during grow a vision. We cannot verify this because of course all these people are gone but it was a story that was passed down because he could go across the river and nobody questioned him because he was Native American. I had stories like that too now that I heard that she mentions that but you're holding out on us what and I'm sorry it was called a rum runner. Yes they were called rum runners during grow a vision. We could not make or sell alcohol in the United States but we could in Canada so we could just go across on the boats and bring it back and nobody stopped them because they were Native American. They could bring in all the alcohol. That is so interesting that there's that contrast as far as the river kind of dividing different parts of the nation but then it's I guess it's very much a uniting thing when it comes to bootled alcohol moving across during prohibitions so just an interesting contrast. Wow that's incredible so neither grandfather's are verified but perhaps were rum runners so interesting interesting and then Linda you mentioned that you had several are there any other stories or family histories related to the river that you can think of. Well there was a history that the aisle was owned by our family at one time and was lost in a gambling bet of course we can't verify it again because it's family history and just kind of passed on but we used to go to Belial for picnics and my father would always point things out to us and and tell us that well so and so was here and this ant lived there and so we were all on the river all the time. That's such an interesting story, though, being lost in a gambling bet. Were there any more details around that? Or do you know any specifics of how that might have happened? There was Isabel Shane, who was an ancient family member, and she inherited the island. It was Hague Island that kept hogs there. And she liked to gamble and was usually very good at it. But at one point, she was losing and recklessly put the island up as her bet and lost. Unfortunately, that's all we know. I mean, these are some incredible family histories. I have to say, I don't know if I have anything nearly that interesting. It does sound that the more you learned, maybe not necessarily about these specific stories, but about your heritage and your ancestry, that it did change your relationship with the river and made it feel connected to the river and in turn to your ancestors in a different way. So I'm just wondering, what do you think it was in particular about becoming more connected with the Wyandotte of Andredon Nation that changed that for you? Do you see a turning point for yourselves at all? I think when I became more connected with the Wyandotte of Andredon itself, when I became a council member and more interested as I grew up. At a certain point, you have family, you have kids, you don't really pay attention to a lot of stuff. And as you come back to the Wyandotte, you learn more of your history and your ancestry and you realize the importance of what it means, what it actually means that your families lived here and as you go more knowledgeable, these things become more important to you. Just to be able to go and touch the earth and the water that they lived on or just to be able to go and see where they fought in the war of 1812, just to be by the land that they were on in the rivers that they were by. It has more meaning to me. And as our younger people are, they're in that situation I was in where growing up I was busy. You know, I had a job, I had kids, they have functions, they got to go to. You have to help them out. And sometimes you just don't have time to learn that. I mean, I've learned more about the Wyandotte. It's about the history probably in the last five or six years than I did growing up. I knew I was native. I went to our cream corn feast every year with my parents. But once I got married, had kids, did this, did that. I couldn't find time, which is a sad thing because everybody needs to find time to be able to understand your history. It has a lot of meaning to be down there for me. Just to be by the Detroit River, you know, comes along our property in Gibraltar and just to stand there and sit in the wilderness or sit in the trees and listen to the river and the birds and it's wonderful. It sounds like you really emphasized a physical connection to the earth, to the water, allowing yourself to have that and to set aside the time to learn about this. How did you get through or around or over that barrier? How did you navigate that? I think I just decided that I wanted to learn more and understand why my grandpa loved the river so much. Why my mom pushed us to go to Green Corn Feast and the barriers I think were just there because at the time I didn't think I needed to know it and as I got older I understood my mom passed away, grandpa passed away and I'm like, I don't know or understand what they were trying to give me. It was a gift actually. They gave me knowledge of the wind out of Andardon and I just want to try to continue that for my kids and for my grandkids and everybody's youth that are growing up. Meas is nephews, you know, I want them to learn and understand. And I think that's a tricky thing about just time and growing up and being young is that sometimes you receive gifts at that age that you're maybe not ready to receive yet or you don't realize that it's a gift. Like you were saying you didn't necessarily realize it was the gift they were giving you. And Linda, so what's it your, how did your involvement in the Lyon Dot of Andardon Nation shape up? Was it something that was pretty continuous throughout your life or was there a turning point for you as well like Sue? We knew we were Native American growing up but we did not know we belonged to the Lyon Dot of Andardon Nation. We were upriver. Most of the tribe is downriver in Gibraltar area. So we didn't have as much contact with tribal members until we were a little older and we were college age and started researching our family history and saying this is our family. We want to learn. We want to know more than just what grandpa's been telling us. It's been about 20 years since we started getting maybe longer since we started getting involved with the tribe. And we've just tried to reconnect with our past. Reconnect with our families. Learn who they are and learn who where we came from. We knew we were Native but where did we come from? Who was our family? Who were our leaders? Who were our chiefs? And I want to be able to pass that on to my kids and my grandkids. And now a great grandchild. So they need to learn who they are and that they're a part of this bigger community. They're not this little isolated shell off somewhere. They belong to the Y and that abandoned and they belong to these river people. Their love of going to the water is something they're born with. It's natural for them. And they need to know why and where it came from. I love the water. Sue, we're going to keep that in. I don't care if you whispered. It's got to stay. You mentioned this inherent love and drops of the water and Sue, you had to whisper like I do love the water. So did you also feel that kind of pull to it as you were growing up or just in your life? I mean you've mentioned that now. You feel that much stronger relationship. But did you feel it kind of calling to you? I have loved the water all my life. And it sort of just calls me when I'm out there by the lake. It's like, "Come, run in me, jump in the water." I'm the one that always says, "Oh, it's nice. You'll get used to it." You just gotta get in first, you know? So I'm the one that's running in first, jumping in the water. And I'm like, "It's nice. Yeah, come on in." And my sisters are like, "Ooh, it's freezing." But yeah, I've always loved the water. I've always went out to the lake, my grandpa, and my grandma lived on the lakes. It was always in the water. And I think it calls me. It's a part of our life, that's a part of who we are. I was going to ask, it seems like Sue has a very specific call from the river. Whenever she's around it, but Linda, what does your call from the river sound like? Is it different from Sue's? Oh, I think mine is different from Sue's. I do love the water. I love the river. Mine is more a connection with the land and water together. The water brings life to the land. The land keeps the water fed so the fish can grow. I am very much into native gardening. So when I go out to the river, it's mostly just to sit and admire the water and sit in awe. Listen to it. You can listen to that water. It talks to you. If you listen to nature, it's talking to you. It speaks. It tells you where you are. It tells you that you belong. You're a part of this nature. You're not different. You are nature. Wow, that's beautiful. And that was so awesome. You're not apart from nature. You are nature. And that when you go to see that harmony, if you're like a better term, and that given take between the land and water, you're not just an outside observer. You are a part of that exchange. You are a part of these entities. As far as hearing nature and hearing the land and the water talk back to you, Linda, what do you hear them saying to you? I'm one. I belong. I'm not separate. I'm not different. I belong. I'm a part of all of this. I'm a part of the water. I'm a part of the land. I'm a part of the air. I have an influence on them as they do on me. And I think it's important that I take care of them as much as I possibly can, because they're actually taking care of me. They're providing me with food and water and air. And everything I need, I need to take care of them so that they can continue caring for me. So we're all one unit. And that completely makes sense because ultimately if you don't care for the land and the air in the water, then I mean because we are one, you're not taking care of yourself then. You're not really loving yourself then. One cannot exist without the other. Both of you I think have touched on this at several points. And so I'd like to start talking a little bit about Gibraltar, because that seems to be a very important site. It seems that the wine dot have recently obtained. That's not the quite right word, but have gotten 15 acre parcel of land called six points or the six points project. How I've heard it described is kind of this beautiful blend. of a site dedicated to ecological awareness and teachings and also a site for a kind of sacred ceremonies and rights of the YN. people. For listeners who are unfamiliar with six points and what this means to you, so maybe we could go to you first. Could you just tell us from your perspective, you know, what you know about this and what it means to you to see this coming to fruition? It gives me a place where I can meditate, where I can talk to the creator, where I can just relax and just listen, listen to the words in the wind and it's a ceremonial place. It's, you know, burial ground area and I hope in the future that things will develop a little bit more. We done a few things on it and just to be able to go and sit in there and it's just a wonderful place to be and I enjoy being there every day if I could be, but I live in worn so it's kind of far away. But just to be able to, when I am down there and I can get there and that's one thing that I really, really enjoy is just sitting there and listening to everything the nature in itself going around me. It's a wonderful place. And as you mentioned, those are burial grounds. It's a sacred site in that sense. So what does it mean to you specifically considering your relationship with the river and with the land and the burial grounds to see all those three things coming together in this site? You know, the river touches it to be able to preserve that area so that it's not developed by people, that that burial site area that the river comes to, you know, it provides life there and I ancestors still live there, you know, those people still live there in the in the wind and in the water and in the trees. They still live there. So it's a very important place and it should not be damaged or anything. I think they all connect in that way. The river flows into the land. Our ancestors are buried there. So as trees grow there and all those trees that are growing there, all those little saplings that are growing, they're in all of that land. The animals that live there, they go through everybody and if you touch that land, you can feel them there. That's beautiful. Linda, turning back to you then, what would you say going back to the original question of the six points project there and what's happening? How would you describe that and what does it mean to you as an individual? The six points is home. It's where our ancestors want. You can go back seven generations even eight or nine or ten actually and our ancestors live this land. They cared for it, they took care of it. They took what they needed from it only what they needed and they gave them the rest. Our ancestors some are buried there. To us, it's a very sacred place. We would like to to be able to have a little more time out there like Sue I live a distance and spend more time just being on that land walking in those woods listening to nature wondering how our ancestors survived through all of this and learning from everything they had to teach us. We have wild roses growing out there. We have wild strawberries growing out there. These are things that they live with. They had every day and we are so lucky to be getting some of that back and to be sharing it with our kids. We want to be able to to develop it more. We've had some problems with the river overflowing us so we need to work with the river to get some control so that we have a part of that land, not just all water, so that we can continue teaching our children this land. We can put in more native plants. We can look the way our ancestors did it. Listen and have ceremony in a special place. This is going to say we have to talk to the river about stuff overflowing. We're giving you enough space. Give us our space. No, you got to be assertive with those boundaries and like you both talked about how you're listening to the river and you're taking in what it's saying but now you got to talk back and say okay, you know, you're taking up a little too much space there. Something that strikes me is very very significant in what both of you are saying is how you're anchoring yourselves more and more in learning by your ancestry, the sanctity of this site and your connection to it, your anchoring yourselves in the present by being with the river and with the land and just allowing yourselves to soak that in and to feel that oneness and that unity. But you're doing these things because you care about the future because you want these traditions and these legacies to move forward. So we'll start with you, Linda, since you just left off. I'm speaking about this but what would your vision be for the future? What would you like to see in an ideal world for the Wyandotte of Andredon people? Oh my. And that's a tough question. I would love to see the Wyandotte of Andredon people gather more freely at six points. I would like to see the Wyandotte people learn to treasure what we have learned and to share and to be able to share that with all of their children, not just six points but the entire surrounding area that they should know the history of where they came from and appreciate that and pass it on and teach true history to their families. Not an anger, not an hatred, nothing of these evil feelings from things that had happened in the past. They can learn to appreciate the past and learn from it, learn what their families have to go through to survive. It will teach them to appreciate life so much more. It'll teach them that life is not all electronics and all shopping and stores. It is nature, it is people, it's joining together. It's the sharing of life that is what's important. And I think coming down there and spending more time there, I think they will learn that. They will learn that. They are connected to this world and this earth. We need them to learn our history. We need our younger generations. Otherwise, it's going to be lost. We need them to learn the history to feel what we feel, to have it be important to them. Not just, "Oh, we got to go here, we got to do that, mom, dad said I got to do this." They need to understand the importance of it and learn the history. What strikes me is that both of you have said, "I wish I could be at Gibraltar more, but it's a drive, it's a ways away." And in O'Linda, you touched on, turning away from the anger and the hatred and I think moving forward in a loving and generous spirit. But I'm sure it's really, really difficult to recognize that all of this land, all of these lands were where your ancestors lived and it was their land. Do you think there's a possibility of potentially getting more land back or even expanding what your broader is currently? We would love to have more land, absolutely. But can we get it? Who knows? That's something that's a total unknown. Everything now is politics and honey. It's not open and sharing. If you don't have the right politics, so you don't have the right money, you can't do anything. It's totally different. There's nothing done with love and care and sharing anymore. We don't have enough lamp on. That's what she heard. So one of the final questions I have for both of you is, again, you both have such different relationships or you have throughout your lives. So the river and to this land, but you've both kind of arrived at a similar point as you've aged and as you've moved through life. What I'm wondering is specifically kind of focusing on the ecological component of this. How the river has changed. Linda, I think you mentioned that. The rising water levels and the river expanding has been an issue for Gibraltar and protecting this sacred gravesite. What I'm wondering is, have either of you noticed any other changes in the river, either good or bad? Pollution. Big, big industry on the river now. They're trying to make sure that they don't pollute the river, but there's been damage to the river by big industry and it's not clean clear as you know, it used to be and the river has a lot of industry on it. You can still fish and stuff, but sometimes components get even get in the land that run into the water that are dangerous to the wildlife, the fish. You know, as you grow up, you realize that these people should never have built factories on the river. They should have never been able to do things on the river. People live and they have jobs and they have to do things and they build a factory and then they just have to be careful if they're going to be doing stuff by the river. Because ultimately it does go everywhere into the lakes, into the small streams, wherever they all run in together and the land, but none of those factories were there when we, you know, our ancestors lived there and they all lived healthy lives. Do you see a way Because like you said, you know, the industry is kind of it's going to be there, but it seems that there's a thoughtfulness and intentionality and protectiveness over the water that has not been there. Do you see a way forward blending these two things? I think modern man has become more aware that some of his progress was done with the wrong intention. It was only to make money and to get wealth without consideration for what it was causing and now I think more industries are aware of what they're doing. At least I'm hoping they seem like they are and are aware that what they do matters and it doesn't matter how wealthy it if you don't have water to drink you're going to die. They need to realize that it's not all for wealth. It's all for people and nature. The Y&DOT used to fish for sturgeon. The sturgeon were so plentiful on the river that they could practically walk across the river on sturgeon. Now there aren't any. They were trying to bring them back, but they were destroyed because they were large ugly fish so they would take them out of the water and sell them, use them, toss them away because there were so many they didn't care. And because people at one time did not care, we are all the losers. But I think most people now are becoming more aware that everything they do affects everything around them and they're trying to rectify but there's so much damage done that it's going to take a one time to fix anything. Yeah. And like you said, you can try and bring the sturgeon back, but I mean number one, it would have been easier if they hadn't been eradicated in the first place. And number two, the water scape has changed so much. The landscape has changed so much. Then you wonder is it possible to bring back the sturgeon and the traditions that were so connected with them? It's a tough battle. It is. Linda, I wanted to ask you in particular have you noticed you bring up the sturgeon, but any other changes like that along the river. We have they've made it more industrial, which is very sad. You cannot go out and enjoy the river except in specific locations. You can't walk on the water unless you go to an assigned area. It's all private industry, private ownership. They've taken away the beauty of the water from everybody. I think it's very sad. It seems like it's squeezing out that connection that is so important and that yeah, just just humans being with the land and the water and with other other creatures. And again, like you were saying, kind of sensing that that unity and that oneness and that is squeezed out when you have all this privatization and all of this industry taking up the waterfront then. So that is really complicated. Well, I just have one final question for you and that is, and I don't want this to be a completely loaded and tough question. But if there's one thing that for the listeners for this podcast, one thing you want them to leave with today after hearing you speak, what do you want them to leave with? What's a greater appreciation? What the creator has given us and they should reach down into their very spirit and their very souls and look at what they have, which is so much more important than ownership and wealth and start to treasure what they have given as a gift. It's a gift. It's time we said thank you. Learn, learn about your history, learn about the land, be protective of everything. Just be a caring person, care about what's around you, how you walk the earth and where you get your water from and take care of it and learn about your history. It's important to learn about your ancestors and say thank you every day. Yes. I hope. I hope. Could you say that one more time, please? I hope. It's like saving a man. It's a total agreement. I hope. Linda and Sue, you have been tremendous guests today. I am so honored by your stories and your presence. Truly, you are, you're so generous and gracious. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having us, Bailey. Thanks again for tuning into the Detroit River Story Lab podcast. I'm interested in getting involved maybe sharing your own story or helping someone else to share theirs. Send an email to [email protected] or simply click the link in our bio for more information. Thanks listeners.