We are living in a New Music RENAISSANCE (ft Sulinna Ong)

Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip. The Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. For decades, a shadowy organization called the Lemonati has kept lemon on top and lime in the shadows. Look around. Lemon-forward sodas. Even lemon-forward songs. We ran the tracks, slowed them down, reversed them, and squeezed out the truth. That's lemon propaganda right there. But now, 7-Up is fighting back with their new lime-lemon soda. Join the 7-Up rising. Flip the sip. 2024 revolutionized the music industry in a way that we have never seen. From the legends of pop releasing albums that would go on to break world records to the 10 years to be an overnight success stories of artists who finally got their big moment after years of honing their craft. We had some of the biggest rap beef in the history of the genre. Beyonce finally getting her long-awaited album of the year win. And it feels like there are more artists breaking through than ever before. In fact, 5 out of the 8 best new artist nominees at this year's Grammys had a song with over a billion streams, which is unheard of in any other year prior. Creativity and individuality is being rewarded in a way that we have never seen before. From Chapel Roan, to Dochi, to Sabrina Carpenter, to Shaboosie, to Tate McRae. These artists feel so different from one another in a way that is so refreshing and makes it exciting to be a music fan. Doing the bare minimum is dead. What I love about each of these artists is how unapologetic they are about their artistry. Vulnerable writing about their deepest flaws. Performances with entire theatrical themes. Innovating new sounds while paying homage to the music that made us. It truly feels like the pop paradigm has shifted. While the 2010s really felt like this era of rewarding conformity, this decade is rewarding individuality. These artists understand so deeply who they resonate with and why they resonate with them. Putting all of their emphasis just in that community. And what's fascinating is I would argue when many of them stopped trying to appeal to more people, they ended up appealing to more people. Because the ones who did get it resonated with it so deeply that they had to share it and embody that work to their life and tell their friends. Because the depth of that connection matters more than anything. Which begs the question, what changed? How did these artists who have spent years of their life trying to do this finally break through? How is the industry shifting and how can aspiring artists view these people as case studies to develop their own career? Who better to ask than one of the queens of new music herself, Selina Ong, the global head of editorial music here at Spotify. Welcome back to Nikki O'Night. My name is Nikki Reardon, and I could not be more excited to welcome our guest this week, Selina Ong. What an introduction. Thank you. I'm so happy to have you here. I mean, I what you do is so that you lead the team that is in charge of curating the most amount of music anywhere in the world. Yes. Over one hundred and twenty thousand tracks get delivered to Spotify. It's probably more than that, actually, but roundabout ballpark. Don't like it's a ballpark figure and the fact that your team oversees all of it. I mean, essentially, like it is the human heart inside of the Spotify ecosystem. Could you really like elaborate what more exactly like editorial is and what your team does? So editorial at Spotify is really represents the curators at Spotify. So we think about I like to split the word editorial and curation. Separately. Now, they are both things that a music editor at Spotify does, but editorial is about storytelling and context. It's the why behind something. Yeah. Now you pair that with curation, which is the what what song are we talking about? What artist are we talking about? And these two things that the art of selection and curation is really important to being a successful editor who really understands what an audience likes, but also really beyond that, what we can suggest to them that's out of their current taste wheelhouse to delight and surprise them. Yeah. And that's always the goal. So we listen in a nutshell. We listen to an enormous amount of music every day. We really think about we're talking to one another all around the world about what's happening culturally, whether it's out in a club, online, at a festival, what we're seeing both in real life and real world, as well as in the digital space across everything, Discord, gaming, different communities. And we're building this matrix of what is really pushing the envelope in terms of what people are talking about in different countries, in different age groups. Yeah. And we kind of act as a source of music intelligence for the company. Totally. And really are focused on trend forecasting. Yeah, I think that exactly what you said is is so interesting about what you do. And especially the fact that it is this global team, like you said, like 120 people across different continents, countries of music markets. Like when you zoom out so much, I think it's very cool when you start to identify patterns. I think so much of great trend forecasting is what you're describing is not even necessarily following a trend, but looking at this deeper meaning of why. And when you identify like multiple trends across multiple things, it's generally because this greater sociological, psychological, responsive human nature to be like, there is something happening that is making us feel this way. Therefore, we are behaving in that way. A hundred percent. And when we think about art in general, music is one of those disciplines in art. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Music is a bellwether for what's happening out in the world. Absolutely. And we see that consistently throughout history. And so we don't only just listen to music. Yeah. We are consuming art, movies. Films, poetry, philosophy where we're reading history books. Yeah. This is all really important to truly kind of understand culture and also what might be around the corner. Yeah. So when it happens, it doesn't actually take you. It's like this makes sense. Right. Or you see almost like the stepping stone of what was to how we got here, I think, is really a fascinating thing. There's this one quote I love that you just reminded me of. It's from this. She's actually a fashion writer. Her name is Sally Singer. But it's about the quote is, if you want to understand fashion, study anything besides fashion, art, politics, history, anything, something that gives you context that you can then take back to fashion. And her quote is very like fashion specific, but I think it's it applies to all forms of art. And this idea that, you know, like consuming other things creates this perspective that you can then take back to your craft. And then that becomes a new perspective in that craft. And I think that like a lot of the greatest artists are people who are really. In tune with culture in that way. Yes. And also having knowing when to step back and for an artist in terms of having a degree of separation. So interesting. And what I mean by that is you can spend all day online for references. Yeah. But ultimately, an artist also has to think about what's true to them. And a lot of the times I think when I have seen artists get stuck or they have. They have looked outside for inspiration. What I mean by that is completely resetting, whether that's going off into the country and just really locking themselves in a room and just like cutting themselves off from. So it's an interesting dynamic in terms of having to understand when to let that creative muse be able to come through and when to dim the noise. Totally. Because particularly now we live in a world where it is constantly noisy notifications. Have you like FOMO? Have you read this? Have you done that? And I know for myself, I'm not an artist, but I have to recognize those moments and also take a step back because you need it for your creative energy. Yeah. And I think what you said is a great, such a great point. I always have always thought about it this way. I don't know why, like the creative mind is like a sponge and how there are moments when you want to drain the sponge and moments where in order to drain it, you need to pour more water on it. And like I think that pouring water of the creative mind. Can be consumption as you're, as you're discussing, like whether that's reading a book, whether that is doing anything online, write anything that is just like source material that you want, then want to take back to your art. But also boredom, I think is consumption in this weird way. Like it is so crazy to me how like this concept of boredom has almost disappeared from our society because we have an infinite access to anything in our fingertips at all times. I think I would phrase that as stillness. Okay. Sometimes I do this exercise. Where I just sit still and I look at what I wouldn't notice usually, maybe it's the color of an egg shell. Maybe it's interesting, you know, it's very esoteric in that way and it's a good exercise to do because everyone is on the go, everyone's busy, everyone's got stuff to do. And when you just stop for a moment and be still, you notice things that you wouldn't normally notice, but can be an incredible source of inspiration or trigger the thing, your epiphany. Or your great idea. Totally. And that I think really like takes, again, like takes it back to the center point of artistry that we're talking about. Yeah. there's this quote I wanted to pick your brain about it is something I've talked about on this podcast often as many listeners are about to be familiar with it is music is not important artistry is not all artists have artistry to me a musician creates a song but an artist creates a world a great artist to me is more than just the songs it's the entire culture and the space that they inhabit music alone cannot create a world the artist creates a world and why one profound quote I'm obsessed with that I think about it on literally on a daily basis too when I think about like the artists that just are having so much success right now I can so clearly explain to you the world they have created or where their world belongs in and what's interesting as you discussed too is that there's no right or wrong answer I think what's what matters is that the world exists whether that is you know like dochi referencing you know like 90s very like black drums and the denials of River music video to Serena Carpenter being very like a flirty and a bit sexual and doing this you know sort of like old Hollywood special to Chapel Rowan having dancers paint themselves as clowns right like there is no uniformity or right answer but they are so deeply ingrained into like the world and I think that is what is being rewarded for artists more than I have ever seen yes I think um it's been encouraging to see two things particularly over the past 18 months come to the fore and that is the the importance of artist development I mean anyone who works in music understands the importance of artist development but with the speed of everything I would say over the past few years the commitment to artist development you know was a bit shaky for some time in this push for the next thing the next thing the next thing like audience everyone's fickle right but it actually takes time to build that world to understand who you are as an artist and for an artist to really uh kind of hone their craft so that's been great to see a lot of um the artists that we're talking about as Breakthrough artists spent have spent years in development for this overnight success that it seems and then the other side is the world building and and um what I'm seeing what we're seeing is a move to theater like theatricality yes this is one of the bullet points I put on here yeah and there are so many artists and this is a lineage of like and I have to I always want to tip my hat to the artists like Bjork and Kate Bush and um those artists who Bowie like who really create worlds and characters and yeah so that has been present through music history but we're seeing this new generation give us their version of that yeah and that's what people are buying into and it's interesting that they're doing it now with like more tools I think is what's also fascinating you know like once upon a time they had like a music video TVs concerts for only the people who paid for the tickets and went to the concerts and like that was it that you had to communicate a world in that and what's so cool now is that we have all of those things but we have so much more funnels into this discovery point of how you can entice somebody into your world which is super fascinating and going back to what you said about theatrics because I remember watching literally out the Grammys specifically the three performances that night that like really were resonating with me deeply was doji Sabrina and Chapel those were the three that I remember like sitting there like wow you know and all three of them felt like a play like literally a play um Sabrina's very like on the nose in that way Chapel's I think like this set and overall like themes and colors felt like a very you know this theatrical production and then I remember doji even came out afterwards and said that her entire choreography was inspired by Broadway and that inspiration point even connected to like wicked the success of wicked and stuff you know like it is so interesting how we have are circling back to that medium but I also think it's because of um theater has always been the one art form that is both Sonic and visual and we are in a world where music is a visual medium I want to be the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the Apple Sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen making it easy to check in anytime so rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone the lemonati has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime in the shadows their lemon agenda has infiltrated everything even our music that hit song named after the color of lemons not a coincidence big lemon has been pulling strings in the industry for years think about it but now seven up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda now lime comes first seven up flip the sip yes I also think I think in a world where things are very fast trends play out on Tick Tock right or on social media let's say whether that's cottage core or whatever core it is at the moment yeah so there's a desire for something deeper that goes beyond a surface level trend like I'm wearing a couple of things or I'm saying a couple of things that is this core it's like well but then there's a desire for for something that's much deeper and much more intricate and much more complex and represents something a lot more real and I think the artists who are having success inherently understand that yeah and that's what we see in their music how they present themselves and the visual content to your point that they're making and also to your point it's not just a music video it whether that's social media or any any form of visual representation right down to how the um the t-shirt looks right or the tour looks like yeah that's all an interconnected world or even like what things they appear at what they wear at those things you know what I mean like it Billie Eilish would make sense going to an NBA game and you know what I mean like but like would it Sabrina Carpenter probably not as much like there's no right or wrong answer somehow you just like see the world where the world's fit you know what I mean at Fashion Week this week in Schiaparelli perfection yeah so that's all very true to her but it's also very thoughtful you know Tom Brown's like really perfect fit for her yeah and her personality and her style yeah something else is going back to this thing of theatrics like I think not even in while very much in a visual standpoint um something I've been thinking about a lot lately that I've loved is in a trend that I am slash predicting slash half manifesting is I love dialogue like denial is a river is a song with like no hook no chorus no it's a dialogue it is like you know like in plays in Broadway when there are moments of the song but they're also kind of like singing talking in this way to themselves and I thought as all great art is great storytelling like sometimes there is something so powerful about stopping singing and literally just like talking that I think makes the listener internalize something so deeply and um specifically the song like did I love the river that is literally like this autobiography of her life it was so cool to hear that this reduction I think reduction of sound reduction of of trying to even sing made it have greater emphasis in the listening experience but doji's a great storyteller yeah and and that's why she can deploy that technical tactic um to draw an audience in because she's an amazing storyteller um she's funny she she has all of all of those talents and again that's part of the world that she builds I think it's also just like this overall artist persona like what something I mean again going back to like when you think of the big three from last year it is you know the 10 years of an overnight success girls like the Sabrina the chapels the Charlies and so clearly you can see the like I think you and I could walk into an HM or a Zara right now and like point at different things on the shelves and like assign it to one of those three in a way that would make sense for them or even like how going into this thing like sense of humor you know like something that really was interesting to me about this development of an artist like Sabrina Carpenter is that I don't think she planned it like it started with the nonsense outros remember I remember that was a little TikTok thing and there's like oh like she's being kind of sexual and funny that's crazy for a Disney girl to do and then a song like feather really started to gain traction and that was her being a little flirty and not being like I'm in love with the boy but the boy's in love with me and then we saw her take this sexualness and this like unapologetic flirt this and it's espresso you know like it was A then B then C and that I think is is this thing that you learn more by doing than thinking of doing as an artist I think also what comes across with Sabrina like that coquettishness and in um her personality and her music um again feels very authentic for her like doji is different to to Sabrina is different to Chapel like they're all very very very different to one another and that's such a great thing to see in terms of all of these women having success but who are also very different from one another yeah and again but I and I think that's what people like about it it is this this hyper individualistic form of artistic expression that I think is really being rewarded more than anything because it is so unique like I just think it's cool I also think from a weird psychological perspective and this idea like I think about this way with all things you know how like you would probably say the most fashionable person you know is somebody who wears a lot of vintage and to me that's like interesting that in this idea of infinite information infinite access to all things what has become valuable or a status symbol or interesting to people is when somebody has something or does something that you can't do yes yes I I agree with that and going and honestly kind of even boils back to this aspect of curation which is interesting um I remember something we talked about last year was how it is so interesting when we have so much music and things like that I mean music's just one example but information on the internet is unlimited AI you know what I mean like anybody can access anything that knowing what is not really valuable anymore but you know being able to look at this infinite like quantity of options and boiling that down to here are the five interesting things this curation is what intel I think like the most peak form of intelligence is becoming if that makes sense yeah the what and the why I mean I boil it down to those two things so I can say listen to this song maybe you will but I'm going to increase the chances of you actually listening to the song if I tell you why yeah right that's the editorial side so you've got the curation which is the what and the selection and the editorial which is a story storytelling and the context and that's what that's how we approach it when we're thinking about curating a playlist or any other listening experience on Spotify because it's not just playlists that editors have a have a role in um we ask ourselves those questions a lot to really boil it down to why would you care about it we really need to nail that yeah and I'm I'm always saying like when we're talking about the like when we're talking about I mean we talk about music every day obviously it's what we do but I'm always asking we always ask each other but why but why yeah um I love that it's a good exercise even it is a good exercise you really have to kind of crystallize why even something I think like a producer could like an artist could do with a writer or a producer but what's so interesting about what you just said to me too is this why factor is not even domestic but global like you really have to anticipate what is the heart and interest of this song of this thing to people across age ranges across the world like one of the stats from the loud and clear report that was so interesting to me was that around a third of artists saw more than 75 percent of their streaming royalties come from countries outside their own yeah that is insane that like not just a small majority 75 percent of what you are doing is is transcending this the globe in a way of one technological feat of like streaming but also this cultural feat as you're describing like this ability to tell a story that's very personal to you but somehow relatable to a stranger and relatable across cultures and continents and all of that I think uh what I've seen definitely change over the past I would say like significantly 10 years let's say the the advent of streaming has really kind of um fast-tracked this is is borders are falling away and people are able to access music from anywhere in the world yep on Spotify streaming and that's given a more open mindset I would say and say like if we look even like five or six years ago the music export was really between the U.S. and Europe and now those export routes it looks like a an airline uh you know route map in terms of the it's all over the place like you see countries like South Korea being very very strong export now of of art I'm not just talking about music but look at their success in film and tv as well and fashion yep um they've really kind of become a cultural leader on a world stage which is so interesting to see Latin America obviously you know so many artists different genres there's a huge diversity from that region and we're just going to continue to see more of that yeah I mean it's this globalization of music is is so fascinating from a raw cultural perspective like Bora's perspective as you're describing and also I've even been thinking about it a lot from like a chronological like time perspective you know like um like when this new Gaga album came out and like there it was so clearly so many references to like 80s music 80s production with you know songs like Killa and Zombie Boy very Prince inspired very Michael Jackson inspired um and and even just like the use of like the sort of synthesizer pop sound that gives me very 80s you know yeah there's a lot of industrial influences as well yeah um and in that album which I which I personally love I love it too and also I loved that it wasn't like like it you could feel it was like subgroups there were like two or three songs that all had one reference point and then be like okay we're jumping to a new reference point you could kind of um you know like assemble these things together like Garden of Eden to me was I was like oh Britney you know but the album isn't Britney and I actually really enjoyed that and I think um you know the the name Mayhem it's it's a combination of of like a lot of different um I think influences or things that she that she was thinking about but I think the overall through line that I took from it is really this industrial dark kind of dark pop edge yeah that kind of is present throughout the album totally and like I think in some ways it's very clear like abracadabra is so clearly like she knows like this is my sound and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head and I'm going to do a song that's very like in my head my sound to you know like the people are talking about how bad do you want me is very dark pop but it's kind of like reputation Taylor Swift you know and then it ends with that beautiful right that beautiful classic ballad with Bruno die with a smile so you kind of she takes you on this journey like you really go through with the different different yeah the inspirations I think is cool um it's a it's a window into the art that made her which I think is really really beautiful um and cool to see and even stylistically like we're talking about this idea of like draw this ability now to draw for multiple inspiration points for one body of work I think is so cool and exciting to be a new artist in that like I'm another one of the stats that blew my mind was that like a quarter of the artists generating over a hundred K a year just on Spotify not all streaming we're talking about just Spotify weren't even releasing music professionally five years ago like twenty five percent of all people making six figures on just spot like that's crazy and it is because I think of this culmination of all the elements we just talked about the globalization the curation the ability to reference things in the past and present to have audience crossover from somebody listening to something that was in the 1980s and then a system curates zombie boy by Lady Gaga or whatever you know what I mean like that is so cool and so exciting and I think has created so much space for these cross-genre new genre sounds to emerge in the world yeah I think we I think it's it's it's it's it's it's a it's a I call it the post genre world I like that yeah I think that particularly I think for a younger audience they they see it as perfectly normal like we do not like if we look back 10 15 years ago there were very distinct subcultures yes you know you were a goth you were you were into hip hop you were so those those lines were pretty clearly defined but now we're in a world where actually you can draw from many different things you don't have to have this like pure allegiance yeah to a particular genre or subculture to prove you know your loyalty or your worth or your um your rep and actually appreciating lots of different influences from lots of different places could be geographically as well yeah actually is is the experience for most people living today like we draw our inspirations from a bunch of things yeah and I think we've seen artists like the the the increase of cross collaboration artists collaborating I mean collabs have been around like that's not new yeah but um we're seeing artists from other markets like other countries collaborate with with U.S. artists and vice versa to tap into black pink girls especially yeah so k-pop being a big one exactly they they're wanting to tap into their audience and to other other countries and I think it's again like it creates an exciting sound that is can be this meshing of things I also think um in general I'm just so collab culture is coming back and I'm so excited about it like I feel like we had so much like I would argue that from like 2014 to like 2018 it was like it felt like you couldn't have a hit song unless there was a feature in it you know like we especially we're in this era of like I feel like so much rap pop crossover which I loved but then after that it kind of trailed into this very one feature on the album type thing and now I think we've kind of circled back towards uh people just being excited to work together again and I think also specifically in terms of to use them as this inspiration point again like talking about like Lady Gaga and Gustafelstein you know what I mean like so not in the same world but then you hear the song and you're like this makes so much sense yes you can see you can see how why there would be chemistry yes there between them yeah it's just that element is is so cool to me um and I really hope we see just more of it you know like every Bruno Mars song he's put out lately has been like a new feature and it's just something completely different and i just love it like i'm like what is next i don't know you know um so i think as a consumer it also makes it just like very enjoyable to see i'm also a fan of like when when you really land a great collaboration yeah and seeing the payoff right that the chemistry between the two artists like guess is with billy and charlie is still kind of my one of my favorite examples because boy does billy make that verse work like she really can do anything i mean it's pitch perfect yeah um it's so well done it's the whole thing it's not it's not like i'm gonna do this verse off i go like it's just so good yeah and the cosine is all cosines obviously very very important to hip-hop culture but cosines are increasingly important now across the board oh my god they are arguably like one of the biggest driving addison charlie yeah yeah i literally i i literally wrote down a list on this doc because i was just like so interested i was actually talking to one of my friends about this like you think of taylor to sabrina and gracie you think of olivia to chapel you think of beyonce to shibuzi you think of charlie to the dare you can think of kendrick and sizzle with dochi role model opening for support for gracie and that that i feel like that was a very organic friendship totally yeah and exactly i'm glad that you said that because friendship was exactly what it was what my takeaway from this was it was like it's not necessarily i think that people are even like it's this idea of like this person's good bye it's like this person is good i respect them as an artist because i respect them so much as an artist i wanted to work with them i wanted them to contribute to my world and like i want you to experience this thing and see the the potential that i see in this person and doing that has done so much for people's careers in ways that like we have not seen ever like like like the idea of just like you know what i mean like one thing i think you can think so clearly with like uh i mean taylor taylor and sabrina and gracie is kind of like i i think they both were relatively big before but uh like a beyonce and shibuzi i think is like one of the most clear-cut examples of so much like you understand why what shibuzi is doing appeals to the ethos of what beyonce is doing in this moment you know this idea of challenging the shamed from this community but also being a black woman from texas and feeling like that is very much her upbringing her story her community and her struggles with that and to bring someone in who just empathizes was so cool you know and and also being very thoughtful in her features and collaborations yeah having other country artists uh black country artists feature very thoughtful very again you know what we would expect from from beyonce really in terms of every every like none of this is an accident it's very yeah it's very very well thought out very thoughtful yeah i mean i feel like her greatest strength as an artist is her ability to like execute a vision yes like it is just so no matter what she does is so cohesive and i think that's also why she's so inspirational and arguably timeless you know like one of the longest lasting influences of music we have that is like still outputting to the quantity of what a person can do so i think that's one of the things that i think that's one of the things that i think are a few interesting things that i wanted to honestly one thing i would love to know is um what have you been listening to lately so i really love the sire gray album okay i'm really obsessed with sire gray so sire gray is a canadian okay part japanese and she's released this album this year and i really recommend that you listen to it it's it's it's in the alt indie space but it's really really eclectic i mean the instrumentation is really really good and everything there's harp in there there's rock guitars there's um it's just a really beautiful album yeah um so i'm personally listening to that a lot on repeat and i'm really interested in artists like love cat and your locra who really speak to this theatrical kind of witchy vibe that i'm seeing particularly that we're noticing again you know i mentioned bjork and kate bush and to mention them again because i think they're like the lineage of these female artists that we're seeing really speaks to that so you know the ethel kane is in this in this space so it's either a darker witchy vibe or or it also touches on renaissance and theatricality like the last dinner party speak is is in that is in that world as well and so your locra and love cat kind of in that space as well the last dinner party is such a great example and honestly not even one i think i would i would have connected until you said that but they do like somehow perfectly sit in this line of like that like i wouldn't you know like a lana del rey fan would enjoy their music but also it is like um so reminiscent of like british rock you know like the iconic sort of like british rock and and also to be an all girl group doing that is very cool and again back to this like cross genre and like multiple reference point type of music that i find so interesting like another artist who has blown up so much in the past like two or three years is like a lavenne you know and like how what she does to me is like derivative of jazz and kind of like derivative of bossa nova and pop but like it truly feels like a fusion you know like this idea of like it's not one or the other it is all of the above want to be the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the apple sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores you're it shows up right on your iphone lock screen making it easy to check in anytime so rule the group chat and download apple sports for free on the app store or find it on your new iphone the lemonati has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime in the shadows their lemon agenda has infiltrated everything even our music that hit song named after the color of lemons not a coincidence big lemon has been pulling strings in the industry for years think about it but now seven up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda now lime comes first seven up flip the sip and there's a there's a freshness to it because she is introducing jazz her version of it yeah to an audience who wouldn't necessarily go and listen to a jazz standard album and it's you know she takes a lot of elements and she's she's kind of re-engaged um a younger audience who are now seeking out kind of the sounds of a genre that is not kind of a natural go-to for someone in their 20s necessarily no not at all it's almost like reminiscent of like it feels like very like 60s kind of when especially just this very like i'm so in love and so happy to be in love and everything's perfect blah blah blah like i feel like music so commonly used to be that way and in a very good way it's traced towards being a lot more vulnerable in a way that i think it's very important for the artist but i'm like oh yeah it's also like fun like valentine but you know what i mean like it's just wholesome and cute and like i don't know like wholesome music is not something i would say is like widespread anymore i think that i think about covid right when you say that because the reason why i bring out covid is because in those times um you know what did really well was upbeat dance music because everyone was inside everyone couldn't go clubbing and everyone was out and we saw concurrently like a rise of like sad music yeah um and there's lots of jokes about gen z being sad all the time and there are many reasons why i'm like please like there are many reasons why we're sad yeah right now but we could that's a whole separate podcast that's a separate podcast there's another episode yeah it's a long time to get through that one um but concurrently we saw this and i and you know do a release future nostalgia in lockdown and that was such a great album for lockdown because it was uplifting so whilst you know you were in your fields and you were listening to the sad stuff there's always there's always also a real appetite for something that's joyous yeah and celebratory and fun and i think we i think brat touched on that for sure it captured the zeitgeist of but it has an edge of messiness like it's messy the world is crazy therefore ergo my life is a bit messy a bit crazy yeah and we you know that's what it tapped into and it really hit it really hit i think the moment something collectively that we all wanted to participate in because now i'm hearing you know a lot that people's worlds are pretty fragmented like you're in you you're into the things that you like but there are moments like this where actually collectively we all want to join into and i think brat was one of them oh for sure there's two very interesting things that you said first i want to touch back on this like talking about future nostalgia in the pandemic because that to me i remember i visibly remember exactly what you're describing i even feel this way about like right when the pandemic was ending harry's house that type of album was it is this pendulum of culture uh this quote that i love is like art shapes culture culture shapes people and people shape the world and what was going on in the world right now was we could not be inside or we're not gonna be outside we had to be inside so that was really really affecting the people, so the art came to be this pendulum was the antithesis of what was going on in the world and that is what made it feel like this this feeling of escapism this feeling of like oh my god i've been craving this for so long and something i always say is like the subculture of today is the culture of tomorrow and when you think of something like brat what was so fascinating and i think what is fascinating about charlie as an artist is that she is an incredible writer and i don't think makes music in a genre that is particularly known for its writing you know like a song like apple is about generational trauma she has songs on the album about like sophie the death of her best friend she has girls so confusing as this entire years-long narrative of like two artists who came up at the same time and had competition and feelings of animosity towards each other and these experiences of girlhood and then like working through that with each other like this is not something these types of emotions are not something you would i think the typical person would imagine with like you know what i mean i think that's a good point just because it's um like club music um doesn't mean it it's not meaningful or deep yeah it's actually very deep as you just said in terms of the the topics that she touches on and i think that's that's an important angle as well it's like just because i'm a little bit messy or i like going to the club doesn't mean like i'm not deep i can get deep yeah no and and very deep like and and i think what's interesting too is like i wouldn't even say the writing is like so poetic or like full of metaphor and like like she's very literal you know um but i think that's what makes it interesting and digestible and it's this feeling of like dancing with tears in your eyes you know what i mean it's not one or the other it's both in your eyes yeah and that to me again and and something you really taught me was talking about how we use music as this like medication to our emotional state almost yeah yeah that reminds me of lola young and messy right that that is let's talk about loli yeah so lola is an interesting one as well because i can remember playlisting her first track one of her first tracks back in 2019 wow so that's another artist development story as well i mean six years ago dochi as well can remember playlisting her first track in 2020 she was a spotify radar artist in 2022 and i think those things are one of the nicest things about being able to do the work that we do is to follow these artists knowing that they're incredibly talented and then seeing that finally kind of other people realizing that yeah yeah that's such a lovely part of the job and when the discovery point just hits it erupts which i think something we've been seeing a lot more lately it doesn't feel like people have like casually viral songs anymore it's like all in or nothing at all um but i would love to even go deeper on two specific songs based off of what you just discussed um messy by lola and anxiety by dochi yes i mean songs this week anxiety is really the song it's it's exploded globally the speed of this unreal yeah unreal um finish we're gonna say i'm gonna go in i mean let's look at the titles anxiety and messy yeah let's use that as a jumping point because i think it's kind of like this messiness of pop this raw vulnerability this introspection is so i one love to see when two i think it is very very like we are past the point of being performative i hate to use the word authenticity because i feel like it's become a buzzword in all things but i'm like oh my god like authentic and i also hate the idea of like two people on a podcast trying to talk about how to be authentic like that's not authentic you know what i mean like but like truly we understand the irony yeah there's a bit of irony in there it's fine but like it was it it literally was so like who they are as people i think what is so beautiful specifically talking about anxiety first with dochi is like it is such a proof of it takes 10 years to be an overnight success she wrote that song four years ago and it just sat there sat there in the black hole of the internet until like this development happened she opened on two tours she opened doji cash she did something for beyonce she put out a lot of music she did what two eps and 10 singles i think and then wrote this incredible mixtape it started getting picked up you know she did the full press run won the grammy and now we see this song picking up and also with anxiety i think the other part of this is i also think it's tapping into a bit of nostalgia obviously the gotcha track um and all of these things are kind of working together at the right moment at the right time everything that you just said and that is how culture works it's all of these cumulative things at the right particularly timing yeah and what's happening out in the world um that's how i see it anyway and and what was happening to her as an individual even you know because it's so fascinating to me is like she when this song started getting picked up so much like she didn't change it she didn't go back in the studio she didn't really i don't think you're like really trying to remaster it that much she didn't change it she didn't change it it was just like people like this i'm gonna put it out and even back when you know like when she talked about how she wrote this entire mixtape in 30 days you know it was this idea um something i've talked about a lot is i think this power of creative restriction this idea that like if i were to hand you you know a canvas right now just a blank canvas a bunch of paints i say paint something you'd be like what do you like you'd be paralyzed but i call it the choice paralysis yes because when they're you can actually choose from anything it actually makes it a lot harder and we actually think about a lot about that in our work when we're thinking about curating because there is a choice paralysis like you've got all of the music pretty much in the world at your fingertips yeah so our job is to help a listener kind of navigate that but understand the moments where sometimes you want a suggestion sometimes you want a playlist for this maybe sometimes you feel like something else so choice paralysis in general across the board and how we live our lives you have you have so much we have so much choice being able to really distill that and having parameters actually helps to create a process in many in many instances totally it is it forces you to crystallize your idea yes i look crystallize the idea that's a great term i like yeah exactly like whether that is a time limit whether that is me handing you that canvas and going paint something blue right because then you're like okay blueberry sky water whatever you know like like the restriction helps you like pull focus into channeling that creative energy into something meaningful and productive and i think we weirdly i don't know maybe some weird like school trauma thing we all experience like the idea of anybody telling us what to do or like a rule in something that is so personal to us feels like it can only be a bad thing when in actuality i think it's like this tool to dig deeper also resourcefulness resourcefulness is a really important skill what can you create out of the things that you have right now yeah um and i think about that a lot in fashion because do i need all the money in the world to buy designer items be great sure like yeah not gonna say no if you want to give me a clothing budget but actually the most the people whose style i really admire are really resourceful they mix it all up inherently they have a taste and a style that isn't dependent on and actually they have they have repetition in what they wear or how whatever it is that they're in their look and then that becomes their signature and so i think i see that can be applied and is present in music in the visual arts in many different disciplines totally this aspect i think of just personality or individualism in some way i always think about i don't know why in home decor like anytime i walk into somebody's house i'm so fascinated i'm like you look like you live here you know like this house like looks like you know what i mean like have you ever had that feeling about a person or like their furniture or like you're like yeah like that is that's a couch so um i did really like nikki's couch i actually i actually dm'd you on instagram it's an incredible couch it is it's it's victorian right it's you but i think we don't know it i saw it my friend sent it to me and she was in palm springs and i was like am i gonna rent a u-haul and drive four on that stunning couch yes sometimes you just got to go for it i mean it it was time well spent it was time well spent but again yeah like that's like it's a personality piece to me even weirdly i don't know why i've been collecting so much print media lately as you can see um because i'm like terrified that it's gonna go extinct at some point in my lifespan so i have uh old editions of the face which used to be my favorite magazine as a teenager and i'm sure it is like looking at that now like the coolest thing ever and it's because of that i've been buying so much print um and and like displaying it in my home and i just think it's like again like such a fun this element of like art as this um expressionist tool for personality you know what i mean like if you walk in my bathroom it's not just a stack of magazines the magazines are curated to be only artists i listen to only actors for music that i or actors in movies that i liked recently like i wasn't able to look at that stack of magazines and have a conversation with me yeah you know what i mean and i think there's so much things like that and going into something like music you you could listen to that killer and and know you can have a conversation with her about prints right and like that is this element of the personality that gets integrated into really good music and art and i think there's elements to do that from like an inspiration point as we're discussing but also again like a messy by lola young is a complete opposite of that it's like all the things bad about her personality almost very human yes right because um and i think that when we weren't i know that and i agree with you like i am also hesitant of using the word authentic because it's it's become like a cliche yeah um so what does it actually mean to be human i think that is such a pertinent question even more so now and as we go into the future with ai and machine learning which are transform transformative technologies but also what makes us human is going to be a question that is even more relevant every day yeah and weirdly even potentially like i don't think we're there yet but as as technologies like ai develop i could see uh these things that are really cool being things that are very human you know very even like like a man-made or or making your own pots and like whatever you know like i don't know there's just this element of like when when nobody's doing it anymore it becomes cool to do the thing i think that we we see that consistently throughout history with movements as well the pendulum swings yeah exactly it is always swinging back and forth there's another artist i wanted to mention when you asked me who i was listening to because i got one i want to mention to you chloe keisha okay is a favorite of ours uh we're listening talking about her a lot and uh listening to her a lot in the editorial team she's malaysian born she's based in the uk um and she's yeah she's a she's in the pop space but chloe is one that we're we're listening to a lot at the moment that's awesome mine that i want to mention is are you familiar with the artist flower of love yes i am obsessed with her you you start tell me and then i'll give you my i one am excited for a new pop girl two we need young artists again i it is beautiful to me that i grew up listening to people like taylor swift and ariana and slady gaga and all these people were the biggest artists that i had growing up but now in i'm 25 10 years later from when i was a teenager they were still the biggest artists in the world and it's is sad to me that the 12 year olds 13 year old girls of today don't get to have a teenager singing songs to them like someone who can empathize with their experience and so that's one thing i love about flower of love she's like 19 two i love that she is very frontward about what she wants to be in the space she's like we've never had a dark skin pop star and that's who i want to be and i think that she has such a clear visual aesthetic i think the music is incredible and what really really sold me on her was i saw her a couple of times come to la to do something and her album cover or her ep cover is like her tapes to a wall with duct tape yes i know which one that yeah and then when she was in la for like two days it's just like a fun fan event thing she went to some random wall and duct taped herself to it so all the fans could come and take pictures with her i was like this is the level of delusion you need to be an artist who makes it and after she did that i was sold i was so sold so i want to ask you a question i get because actually so she we've been supporting her since we put her in fresh finds back in 2021 um and breaking news was really actually started to kick off in in asia first yeah and then we saw it kind of um grow from there but it was it was asia that really kind of gravitated towards that towards that song and and how she started to get momentum um but when you say like teenage listening to artists who are also teenagers i'm interested in that because i think that in general actually it's not so common when you're you yourself are a teenager and you're listening to music by artists they're generally in their 20s yeah um and obviously there are a few exceptions i'm interested in that point that you were saying well i mean to me my perspective growing up my generation specifically the biggest stars as a kid i remember miley cyrus selena gomez taylor swift ariana grande like these people were plus or minus three years from me always and i aged with them the music i have always had is has always been relevant to me and that is why i mean even thinking back to like when an olivia rodrigo really started to blow up like i think the reason like a song like driver's license it is literally like she was a 17 year old girl writing a song about her first ever heartbreak and getting her driver's license and it's like if taylor or ariana wrote that song like it would have felt a little weird it's not the life they were living now but that is such a problem and circumstance that a 16 year old girl can empathize with and i think in order to have that song be written well she also needed to be living that life in that moment it's kind of what i'm meant by that no i understand yeah um but it is such i would also like to ask you as we're running low on time a few spotify specific questions because there was something you said earlier that i really really loved um and i wanted to ask about was you were talking about new music friday and how much emphasis spotify puts towards supporting new artists and how that you do a reserve a few songs on that spots on that playlist to only put for like new actual new artists yeah so we have there's there's fresh finds which i referenced before so fresh finds is our kind of it's our playlist brand for artists who are completely independent um and usually fresh finds is super super early like steve lacy's very first track he's a fresh finds alumni like if i reeled off all the artists who actually appeared on fresh finds like there is there is quite an impressive alumni who featured on fresh finds and then graduated to to you know the success that we've yeah that we yeah they yeah i mean that and the other thing as well is um today's top hits might be the pinnacle for some artists but for others it's not right and there are many other roads to success and and one of the things that we were talking about earlier today is actually um 80 percent of the artists who are successful and have sustainable careers actually have not been on the top 50 chart that's so cool to me and and so you know that the niches and the genre is really really coming to the fore in the streaming world in that you you don't actually have to be on a top 50 chart to have a very very very good fan base yeah an audience and have a sustainable career there is so much more to say about what's going on right now so i think that's something that we need to keep an eye on and i think that's something we need to keep an eye on and i think that's something that we need to keep an eye on and i think that's something that we need to keep an eye on and i think that's something that we need to keep an eye on and i think that's something that we need to keep an eye on perspective yeah to be like yeah if we were to put songs on a playlist and grade it off of raw data like yeah a playlist of new music friday that has sabrina carpenter and taylor and these big artists would do better but it is very cool to me that you say no we want to support the music community and new artists so we're going to segment off x y z whatever number of slots this week for actual new artists so new music friday how are we approach that is there's there's about 100 tracks in new music friday that new music friday we have a version of it for every country that we have that we have a music team in and that we're in so there's new music friday uk there's new music friday us new music friday new zealand etc that's a good thing for the listeners to go out and test out go listen to new music yeah go check out the pick a country spin the globe pick it and you'll see like you'll see and you'll really see the different differences in the in the nuance of of each country reflected and the local artists so a how we approach it is of course new music friday will include like the biggest releases of the week of course lady gaga is going to be in there for sure um jenny from is in one of the biggest releases last week however we also think really thoughtfully about knowing that actually a lot of industry look at that list it's an opportunity to also with our editorial voice tip our hat to the tracks and the artists that we think are exceptional in that week yep and also reserve we do really think about we think about like the the gender representation in the top 20 right i don't we don't want to see a top 20 full of guys yeah we think about and obviously that's dependent on release week sometimes like yeah some are heavier than others but we think thoughtfully about those things like you know can we can we make sure we have a women artist higher up like and also we reserve space for artists who are very much new and developing yeah and again you might not know the names but it's a prompt for you to listen to and to go check it out because it's got our co-sign that it's totally it's in nmf and and i think even like maybe even a subcontractor it's totally it's in nmf and and and i think even a subcontractor perspective of like the idea that like yeah this new artist is on a spotify playlist next to sabrina carpenter or beyonce whatever right like there is this subliminal like like like we believe these things are somewhat equal value and like you should give them an equal chance which i think is really cool another thing that you had said earlier that i like really i i found so cool was talking about when you're investing in in really developing a new genre and how when you believe that there is a lot of potential or or you know this exploration of culture or subculture that is not being uh discussed but has potential you will put these you know let's say it's it's some sort of derivative of pop but let's say it's latin influence And you will put it on, you know, something like a pop rising with this understanding that, like, yeah, maybe most of the people who listen to this don't speak Spanish and they might not like it or get it the first time. And you are willing to give it that position, even though despite it might not have as many streams in this English speaking country or whatever, because there is this greater vision, greater understanding of culture and also just a belief in the artist, like from the Spotify team, I think is so cool. And that your team puts that level of effort and intention into something is insane. Yeah, it's a big part of what we do. So we meet every week as editors and we talk about, like, you know, and we'll have everyone join the calls from wherever they are. And we really talk about what we're seeing locally. Yeah. And I can still remember actually in one of these meetings, an editor from South Africa talking about Amapiano and the dance group, like you had a bunch of dance editors. And. And talking about Amapiano and I got sent some music and I'm like, this is really interesting. This is actually very, very different from anything I've heard before. And there's a whole culture around it, like in the club, the dancers, the reinterpretation of certain rhythms and beats. And then through that discussion, we started testing it in the UK. Why don't you test it? Yeah. US, why don't you put it in some of your playlists? And it reacted really, really well. And so. When there, when we spot things like that, K-pop, obviously everyone, everyone knows it's such a big commercial force. It's now mainstream. Yeah. But it wasn't always so. Right. And that journey took eight to 10 years of programming. Yeah. I remember like Gangnam Style in 2012. Remember when that music video was like the number one thing on YouTube? That was all what most people thought of career. Right. In terms of like music from Korea, they would think of Gangnam Style. Yeah. That took us eight years of like knowing that, you know, K-pop was going to be a super important genre. How can we start to introduce it to an audience outside of Korea, non, like English speaking and other languages in a way that is not going to have them go, what the hell is this? Like we want them to, to, to be intrigued, but to not instantly reject it. Yeah. Um, but that would always also take time. So we really had to think about how to do that in the right spaces next to the right song in the right listening experience. Then time also did its thing. Um, and here we are, and K-pop is an unquestionable force. Unquestionable. Even I think now, like I'm a piano, we're seeing Tyla, I think Ira Star, you know, like that community is, is developing in a really cool way. But for the sake of time, I want to ask one final question and that is exactly taken off where you just left off. What is something that you feel like you are seeing that has potential as a genre or a sound, anything, um, that you think is going to be big and like, you know, the next five years or so? So I would say not so much in the next five years, cause it's already happening, but there's definitely, we're seeing an Afro beats and reggaeton crossover. Uh, we actually launched a playlist called Afro ritmo that kind of speaks to that crossover. That's really, really interesting for us. We're watching that pretty closely. Um, the other thing that we've seen for a while and is only set to grow is the dream pop, uh, and medieval. I mean, it's kind of like a theatrical space where we're seeing some of the artists that I mentioned before, like your locker is very much in that kind of Renaissance, dark folk, um, world. I think that's got legs that we've only seen it seeing the beginning. I think that's going to further, further develop as well. Totally. I mean, I feel like in this generation, it feels like very Lana and Ethel and yeah, I mean, Lana being like the, yes, the, again, like when you think about lineage, it's the family tree of music. Lana is the oldest sister of some of these artists. Yeah. She's like the mother, the maternal figure right now. I would say older sister. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The older sibling vibes, but even like, you know, cigarettes after sex as well. They're another band that is, I can hear that influence in many younger artists. I mean, even in like an, I would even say somehow like an Arctic monkeys feels like it belongs in that world in a weird way. Yes. No, I think, I think so. Yeah. Like it, it is, um, Tumblr. That's how I think of the Tumblr generation is, is coming. Oh, and the other interesting thing, and I think that this is again, and when we're talking about the cross pollination of different art forms, so the influence of book talk, right. And I think about books because obviously we've, we've introduced audio books on Spotify and I talk a lot to the, to the, to the book editors at Spotify to see where we have crossover in our world. So one of the, some of the biggest genres for Gen Z is. Uh, fantasy and sci-fi. These are two genres that I love, which shows that I'm, I'm must just be, have never really matured out of my twenties, but the mythology and fairies and the medieval aesthetic, you see that also in the music. Interesting. And so I think those two things are related. Oh, totally. I love, I had not even thought about this, but I think you're so right. And so onto something using this idea of like, what is popular in film or fiction or books as this. Indicator of like what is visually interesting to an audience for sure. And books on something like Spotify is such a great example of that. Even, um, you can even connect it back to like the idea of like emotional playlists, I think too. Um, you know, like a, a, a book and, and how it can connect to themes and those themes connect to songs. Um, and I think like for the, all the artists out there listening, um, going back to this way of, of the way that culture impacts art and art impacts culture, studying things, not from necessary. What they are, but how they made you feel and then taking that feeling and using it in your own medium. I think I agree with that. I think that's, that's exactly what we're seeing, uh, happen. Yeah. And the other, the other genre, I think that, that again is still set, has not exhausted its momentum. And I think there's still, still more there that we're going to see is, is folk pop. Um, Paris Paloma. Uh, very interesting artists, her track labor about literally the labor that women do that is invisible to most people, um, but is extremely taxing in a woman's life. Like those themes, right? Women, women's rights, the, the struggles that women go to very pertinent right now. Very. So again, a reflection of when we're talking about music is a bellwether for what's happening out in the world. Very, very topical. Yeah. And, and I also think this idea of like relatable themes like that in genres that they have not been typically expressed, like another artist that very makes me think this way. It's like a Gigi Perez and how she is very, like, if you close your eyes and like, weren't really paying attention to the words, you'd be like, oh, that's hosier. Oh, that's like a straight man. And it like a song like sailor song, this like a queer love song written by a woman, you know, and like that it is sonically. So. So in that world, but lyrically, so in a different world, and I think people really love that because they're like, wow, I've always loved this genre of music, but I've never felt it speak to me. And now there is an artist out there who sounds the way I love, but is communicating to me in a way I haven't heard from any of these artists before. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Selena. Thank you for having me. As always, I can't believe, I mean, I feel like we could talk for another hour. Oh, literally for so long. But, um, I like, I think you have one of the most fascinating takes on music. Out of any human being I've ever met. It is so interesting to hear the way you think about things and connect things. And I think all the artists out there listening to this are going to have so much stuff to think about, like the way that that someone like you connects these aspects of culture. Well, I mean, I always, always say that, you know, my job wouldn't be possible for without the artists actually making their music. They're the real MVPs. I mean, when you're an artist and you're making art, you give your something of yourself. Yeah. To, to it. Um, that's something I never underestimate. Um, and it takes, it takes a lot of skill and bravery and, and, um, honesty to be able to do that. Yeah. And, and not just giving it to yourself, but giving it to the world. Yes. It takes something from you to put it out in the world. Which is beautiful. Yeah. But thank you so much. Here's a tip. Coca-Cola. For the big. For the small. The short. And the tall. Peacemakers. Risk takers. For the optimists. Pessimists. For long-distance love. For introverts. And extroverts. The thinkers. And the doers. For old friends. And new. Coca-Cola. For everyone. Pick up some Coca-Cola at a store near you.