We Are Always In Relationship with Dr. Michael Hart

Welcome back to season three episode 10 of Two Crees in a Pod and today we are joined by Dr. Michael Hart. Terry and I are very excited to have you join us Michael and before we get started into some really good conversation if you would please introduce yourself for our listeners. I'm the vice provost indigenous engagement at University of Calgary, so then that's the one for this time for us to be together so Michael Hart from Fish River Crenation in Madapoevo. I'm Muscago Cree and living here in Alberta. How long have you been at Calgary Michael? Remind us. I started in this position in June 1st. I arrived in Calgary May 31st. Nice nice and you were in Winnipeg prior to that correct? Just right up until May 30th I drive in between from one place to the other. I believe. It's how we were. That's how it's how it's crazy. Don't mess around, Michael. So we were having some prior conversation, the three of us in regards to what we would love for you to chat about today. Michael, one of the things that we did talk about. And for our listeners, I remember being in my social work diploma back in 2003. I believe 2003. And I remember some of the first scholarly work that we were asked to read actually came from Dr. Michael Hart. And I remember that was my first exposure to what indigenous social work can look like. And I remember at that point being really intimidated and being a little scared, you know, by the immense work that I was going to be taking on in my community, but also really excited. And I was excited because again when I was reading the work that was done by Dr. Michael Hart, it was so the way that the way it was laid out was that, you know, we complicate things a lot in our practice and that there was such this, although there's complexities in indigenous social work, the way that you described it was it simplified it for a res chick like me. And it made it more real. And it made it to it made it that I can imagine being a social worker in my community. And so I want to thank you for that. And I think that one of the other things that we talked about is, and I told you earlier, there was a statement that you made back in my master. So I first read your stuff in my social diploma and then in my master's, you joined our class. And you made this comment in the class and it was in response to a conversation. And one of the things for our listeners, if you haven't yet heard this, one of the things that we oftentimes will say in our practice, whether that be in the classrooms or out in the field, is that there's this expectation that you are to be healed. Or an expectation maybe that you have your quote-unquote shift together before you go out and work with our communities. And I've thought a lot about that, you know, about the statement that you made and the statement you made was really, it really helped me understand that we, we may be, you know, a quote-unquote dysfunctional in some ways, but that doesn't mean we can't be functional and helpful in others. And that was a really powerful statement for me at that time. And it helped me tend to understand my work. And so let's talk about relationships and how, you know, when we do social worker practice in general in our communities, and this, you know, this quote-unquote expectation that we have to be, we have to have our stuff together in order to go out there and work with other people. And so what are your thoughts on that, Michael? Well, when I, first of all, I can't believe I said something. So that lasted this long for you, so I'm glad that it worked well. But it is something I strongly believe in. And what I mean by that, if we wait till we're all well, then we'll never get any work done. Because we're constantly growing, we're constantly developing, we're constantly moving forward in life. And if you look at, even the way our people handle whether it's a stages of life, whether it has to do with our progression, who are our traditional knowledge, our indigenous knowledge, our tree knowledge. It's always talking about moving forward, growing, developing. And there isn't an end point. So when people talk about, you've got to be well. It's as if we read this stage and suddenly we're able to do things. And the reality is that we've always been doing things all the way through. We continue to grow, we continue to develop, we continue to gain new knowledge, we continue to implement it. So I don't, I'm not one who said you have to reach this stage of enlightenment before you can go and offer something to others. When I think about my learning to ceremony, let's say, that early on, people who didn't know anything would come and ask. And I would share whether it's sharing about smudging or whether it's sharing what's sitting in the circle. I would share it with the little I know. And not to say that I was a knowledge or a ceremonial post or meter or any of that. But I did have something I could offer. So I would offer what I could. And as we go further in, whether we're learning more through participating in sweats or participating in other ceremonies, we develop and we go and we offer that to people. So it's not to, it's not like that we reach this place at any point or like where we have, where we can say, well, now I got it and now I can go work with others. I do want to say though that we also have to be aware and spend that time looking at ourselves. We have to recognize that we are in relationships all at a time. So that's the reflection of those relationships all the time. But it also means that we have to be in relationships in relation with ourselves. And what I mean is that is that we do stop and look at ourselves and then we're aware of where we're at. What are our gifts? We have ceremonies that train us through our gifts that help us develop a sense of vision and purpose in our life. We do have to spend time with that so that we know how to offer our gifts. We know how to offer the good things that we have. And we're aware that when we have our own stumbling blocks, when we have our own, it was one elder used to call them little rascals. We know when those rascals come to haunt us and impact our relationships with others, we have to spend that time as well learning about those. And that never stops. I have my rascal that I'm still working now after these years I'm gone by. And I don't know any elder that says, now I got it all together. So those rascals never disappear. But what we also have is something to offer all the way through that. So I'm not one to say that you have to work all on yourself, get that done and then you could work with others. I'm one to say that we have to take constant cycle process that we're constantly improving where we go forward and come and look at what we've done, learn from that keep going forward, and that in through all that process we offer to all the relationships that we have as best we can. I just for listeners to give also a little bit of context. So I'm currently completing my master's at the University of Calgary as well in social work. And one of my classes actually it was one of I think it was advanced theories. I was in that class probably a year and a half ago. And one of the things was that I was to critique an article and I chose Michael's, one of Michael's articles. I won't share it with you. It was, I chose it because I think that we look at so many different articles that there's not a lot that speak to a pre-world view that speak to ceremony, that speak to the spiritual side of the work that I feel is important in social work. And so I selected that. And when I had me thinking about a lot of different things and really I think at that time even I started thinking about the important of this spiritual aspect in how ceremony is healing, right? In our theories and really challenging advanced theories that I was learning about. And then, so I critique this article and then I fly to a conference out east and I'm there. And then the last day we're asked, and it's a huge conference with like hundreds of people. And then we're asked to like all go to certain tables. So I end up sitting beside Michael, not knowing it's Michael. And then we're all, you know, introducing ourselves and he's like, yeah, my name's Michael and I work with the University of Calgary. And I had known because I researched him like the week before. So I'm like, Michael, who? Only Naima. And so it was such a cool coincidence. And I think, and not even a coincidence, you know, I think that there was a purpose to that meeting and meeting you in person. But also being able to question and ask you some questions that really I was struggling with in my own studies in doing, you know, doing my research within a Western institution and also ensuring that I was honoring indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing. And so I appreciated that. And I guess that's where I would kind of like to go is your thoughts in terms of how, because my research right now is around how ceremony is healing. And so I'm so honored and fortunate I get to sit with a number of elders and knowledge keepers. And why I've also continued to move into my PhD into the fall is to continue this work because I really feel that it's important. But we don't see a lot of this within our institutions in social work education. And I just want to get your thoughts on that. So my thoughts about ceremony is healing or ceremony in social work or any of that? Sure. All of it. We're here for it. Well, I have to, I think the way I'll address it is to some of my my own experiences. I'm of a time when the ceremony was still kept pretty quiet and wasn't brought in as awkwardly it is now. So if you look at when I wrote "Seeking Minimal Mats" when I only wrote about stuff that is that is pretty service and is is pretty was felt safe that I could talk about and I wouldn't be breaking those things held at that time. I still have a sense of that. So a lot of my work right now is I do the red caution, the red caution from the Ghani speaks about I work in a written system and my mind tends to work in the written system when I do there. When I go to ceremony, I'm in that oral system and I work in that way in the number I think you've seen me in that situation. So I would imagine that it's evident that sure feels it when I'm within. What I find is that I still have that separation and many times red will outline things and I'll go if I have to switch my hands and I realize, "Oh, yeah, that's right." So I do have to give that that note that I'm still not spot where I'm doing this or that and I haven't entwined them to the degree that they could meet and what I see some great scholars doing right now. So I look forward to your work in doing that with your page. With that said, what I do find is that there are understandings within our ceremonies. There are understandings with our teaching stuff. Some of our basic values are the least that those are. Our way of looking at the world and being in the world that I could see easily applying in our profession social or other helping professions and that I could see when mainstream values and practices in these contradicts how we are as indigenous peoples. And so a lot of my work focuses on challenging those infositions of other peoples' values and beliefs. So for example, we just talked about, "Can you do work as you're growing?" That's a previous question. And that's an example where in my eyes, the belief and mainstream that you have to do all this first before you can do anything within anybody else. And to me, that's an imposed perspective of individualism upon us. And it neglects that we are people of relationships that our language, our ways of being, interaction is all about relationships. And so this whole idea in an individualistic outlook, in an individualistic way of working contradicts that. And so I see that through our ceremonies. When I've spent time in ceremonies, the first ones were me participating in observing a lot. And a lot of that would have been such as the pipe ceremony or other ones such as in that regard. The earlier ones that I start becoming more active in were ones where I was overseeing and guided to do things. And I could really do things on my own. So for example, going up to fast. All you really need is someone to overseen you at the very basic in New York and the sacred aims you need. So you could really do it on your own. But then as you move forward, take some of these things that starts doing spit lodges. You start needing to rely on some others because it's hard to do a spit lodge all by yourself within trying to help others. And then as you keep going on, whether it's a smoke lodge, whether it's chicken dance or whether it's moving even further up to the sundance, what you notice is that we have to become more and more dependent upon community in order to develop that. So by time you're hosting the larger ceremonies, if you don't have community, you can't really do it. So what I see out of that then is stages of a person's development, a person's growth. And as they become more intertwined and more connected to community, the more that the opportunity community, the more that reciprocal relationship emerges between that community and individual. So that's easily transferred into our understandings of trying to help people. Helping people then isn't all just about helping an individual. It isn't all just about saying, I'm going to take this person and stick them and see them only as individual and if I may acknowledge or have relationships, but I'm just going to work with this one individual. That's a person in community. That's a person with ties. And so our work should be looking at how do we encourage and support that person's time in community, how do we develop, time, or how do we develop our practice so that over time that person was strengthening their ties to the community and contributing back to the, I've written about the concept that I got originally from the beginning's first name, but the last name was Gross, about respectful individualism. And so that's giving somebody a lot of freedom. And that's some people may say, well that's just individualism. The respectful part is that the reason we do that, for example, would be we don't, someone going out to pass, somebody go in ceremony, we don't tell them what to feel, what to do, what, etc. in ceremony. It's because we know that that in some level they're going to make their own connections, whether they're to religion, to their spirit, to community, what to have with. They're going to be making their connections and developing a sense of where purpose there gets, making those connections. And the key part is that they make them so they can contribute back to community. And that's that the respectful part has to do with that. We respect them as somebody who is up community, who's going to develop themselves and have a commitment to that community. That's very different than mainstream individuals and based upon greed and self-development only. And so that's an example that we have our own values, and our own perspectives, our own practices, that unless you have an understanding and depth knowledge of both of them, it's hard to see when our values are at work and hard to know, hard to see when mainstream is imposing their values upon our practices, because it's very easy for the written system to impose the idea of individuals upon our sense of individuals to the flip side of community. And I was remembering part of the conversation that we had too, and going back to that advanced theories class. I remember asking my professor, we were talking about attachment theory. And so, you know, as and I've learned this through Blue Quills, you know, really deconstructing a lot of these theories and the work within our practice. And so I remember putting my hand up and I said, what happens then? Like is there a term or is there a theory if we are removing a child from their home or their community? And our elders teach us that when they are removed from their home or their community, their spirit stays there. And so we have children who are not with their spirit. And we know with alcohol and drugs in our communities, we know all these teachings where individuals, whether that's children or adults, are away from their spirits. And I guess my, my thought is when we think about this and the impact that it has on indigenous people is we don't talk about that. We don't talk about that important piece of, you know, when I was, I was like, is there like a spiritual attachment theory? Like, and I remember asking you, Michael, I was like, I don't know if there's actually like a term for this or a theory or, you know, when I remember my instructor at the time, you know, basically said, I think that's your PhD, you know, has to really understand this and do some research around it. And so, you know, the more that I sit and learn from, from different elders and talking about and it always goes back to spirit, right? And it also always goes back to, you know, when we talk about trauma specifically, and, and how our spirit goes into survival mode when we've experienced trauma and how it will sometimes leave us to, to cope. And, you know, the ceremonies that need to happen to bring back our ceremonies to us. And so, we talk about this in our session, but I guess, you know, that's just my question that I have for everybody. And I know that that's part of my work. You know, I know that that's part of my work moving forward in my own studies is trying to understand, you know, because I think that we need to start talking about that more within our classrooms. And I think that, and I'll just, because I want to hear what Michael has to say about this, but I rate when you were talking, Terry, I said to myself, but they don't know how to address it, right? And so, we can't talk about it because there's no way to address it, right? Within Western, within a Western context, is that when you pose that question, people are like, hey, what? You know, like, what do you mean spirit? Like, what kind of spirits are you talking about? Because there's no way to, because when we think about trauma management or trauma therapy, we oftentimes think of very cognitive, you know, very linear therapeutic models, very, like, very tangible. It's very tangible. You can touch it, you can feel it, you can chew on it. Whereas if we, and I say this all the time, we can't measure mystery, right? And so, if there's no measurement for mystery, then we can't put it into a box. So, I think that that's why the work you're doing is so important, because now we can have a response. Whereas I think that there was that was lacking in the past is that many, and I can't imagine how many indigenous social workers have gone through courses and asked that exact same question and not had an answer, right? And so, I'm proud of you for going out and seeking that and putting it down in a way or writing about it or talking about it in a way that future indigenous social workers, when they ask that question, they'll have an answer. Or some sort of an answer right for themselves. So, yeah, anyway. So, that sounds like some of the work by Eduardo Durán. Yes. And that's because he's that's where night first start hearing about that. I don't know if I, I'm still learning and I'm in terms of what your outline, I think that's a, a couple of things come in my mind and they don't know if I have an answer that would satisfy your, your, your wanting to learn about this. One of the things that comes to my mind is that when we put people up the past, on one of the, one of the dynamics, I will say that means that is, that happens is someone's searching for their vlog and their, their spirit helping. And so, I've often wondered then, is it a disconnection from one's own spirit? Is it a disconnection from their vlog? Just one thing I'm wondering. So, I'll leave that as a question for you to add to your exploration. The other piece that I would suggest is, for the other thing, they came up when, when you're showing up, is the whole idea of disassociation. So, I think even written systems have some ways of trying to look at the, how do you explain disassociation in separation of oneself. So, I think there are glimpses in other processes that, while not the same, I mean, that's what I imagine them turning to, to try and understand what it is you're thinking about. And yet a piece that will add to you that, that I've been myself been trying to grapple with and stuff. When I was young, just the other year. So I don't know. So I don't know. When I was younger, one of the things that, the other spend time at these things that we don't understand, we don't really understand the creator. We're not capable of that. And so, as such, we go through creators' helpers or service in order to have whatever it is that reaching out for, to be interpreted in the best way presented to create, and the best that we could do is to come to understand these servants in order to make some, to understand, I guess, we tried to understand the service around us. Part of that also is that there's elders who didn't use just work creator, which they managed to, or if in English, those they created them. And that there's other stories about that we come of creation, of creative. And so we keep talking about that in terms of all that, like a bit of that sacred fire or this, from where we come from. Now, if, if all of that is spirit, and if everything around it's in spirit, and if we're connected to everything, is it really that we're disconnected from spirit, or is it that we don't know how to recognize it within ourselves and on all around us? And so these are questions that I'm trying to, to start through, still. One of the reasons I'm starting through that one, the way I just presented, because it reflects more of our own people's ways that we're always in the relationship. And whereas the idea of spirit, someone not being connected to their spirit, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just wondering about the set of further reflection of, we compartmentalize things, and separate them. So easily the way in English language is. So I don't know if it's a reflection of that, or what. And so I'm still learning. I've been, I've been fortunate to be in ceremony for decades, and I'm still learning. I've had some thoughts that I used to guide me in my work, but just as I said from the very beginning, if I waited till I was all well and had all the answers, then I would still never be able to help anybody. Instead, I'm trying to figure out an offer that can help people move their head. So more questions, not answers, I guess. Well, and they're, and they're good questions, and I, and I really appreciate that question that you posed about, is it a disconnection to spirit, or is it a disconnection to our helper? And I think that that's really, that's something I'm, I'm going to keep thinking about. And, and, and I connect to just conversation that I've had with elders in terms of, you know, and they always say, you know, the importance of of our names and getting names with our children, right? And then back connection. Yeah, with, with the spiritual world. Because we're not asked, you know, when we go into ceremony, we're not asked for our English names, you know, we're asked for our, our, our pre-names or our spiritual names. Yeah. And we're told that that's, and I remember my aunt Yliona saying, we, long time ago, introduce yourself that way because that's how they will recognize you. Yeah. And, and so I think that that's, that's important. And, and so that, and that's automatically what I thought of when you posed that question was thinking about the, the children, again, at no point of their own who don't have that, that, that connection. And, you know, you were talking about children being taken from community, etc. And if, you know, if they're, if they're a family of origin or, or they're, their family at home was unable to provide that space for them to, to do that. And then they go into another home where there is no longer that space there either than whose, it's our work, it's our work to ensure that children have an opportunity to be connected to that, to their helper. I know, our, our helpers, in, in my understanding, help us travel on our, on the journey. We often talk about that thing. My name's Dumaist, you know, that, that spirit road that we're on, it's in that it's represented in our speedgrass. We, we talk about that, and that makes sense to me, both in terms of being on a journey, and that when somebody are, whether it's using the feather, whether it's using the speedgrass, depending which way you lay it down, whether, whether you're being kept on that road going forth, on that spirit journey, or whether you're being directed up the side, get off that road. So both of them have those teachings about that journey on that road. And so perhaps it's more about that journey than we're off, of course, as opposed to being disconnected to spirit. So I don't, I don't, I don't have an answer. These are just things I'm putting out there for you to learn and think about. Just real bossy cream woman, come on. Yeah, we give it that answer. You know how we are? No, that's not good enough. Come back. A real thickener. No, yeah, try again. I'm getting down here and not, and locked within, don't need to call, just don't need to call that. The people here, but I lose our laughter. Well, that's that's why we, that's what we do. I, yeah, so I, I often wonder about maybe it's maybe our little ones are either not moving forward on their journey on their road. And that's what they're following and, well, that's what they're helpers. That's what we are helpers as well. It helped them do this report on your journey. And so maybe if we start looking at that and also make sense about why people who don't understand the journey, our people have been making and we're part of because like our, our, the whole teaching around the mats, wind in terms of the belly buttons, that we're, we're just an extension of the journey our people have been on. So when you take our little ones away, it's taking them off that road and that, that if there's a disconnection, it's, it's at the, the people and the others around our little ones who are taken away from our communities can't help them guide them on that road. In the same way as all people can. So, yeah, things to ponder. Yeah, I'm the good things to ponder. Oh yeah, lots, lots, lots, lots more than we can make. Isn't it true that every time you're done, you know, quote unquote done, like a degree? It's like, wait, there's more. And you leave with more questions, which I think is, is, is also a really beautiful thing, because the moment we think we know everything is, yeah, you stop, you stop growing there. Yep, well, we'll probably get taken to the other side. Well, we're not putting that in the universe. So, so as we wrap, as we wrap up, is there any closing comments or anything that you would like to share with our listeners, Michael, on tonight? Well, there's a, there's a few things. So, it's not going to be a short wrap up, unfortunately. No, that's okay. One of the things that you want to emphasize is how much of the respect I have for the two of you and the work that you're doing. And I think it's really impactful in a very, a really foundational kind of way. You're, it's, it's accessible. It's not, it's not all built in, I'll say, steel and mortar. It's built, it's based upon very, earth based kind of things. So, as such, we all have access to it. And so, I really appreciate the things that you're doing. And so, that's one thing. I thank you for my hard to yours. I'm going to let it spell out. The other piece I would want to say in terms of closing up is that it's, I think we have so much to offer as Indigenous people. And we always had, and if there's anything that I, I'm reminded of every time I'm able to engage with their own ways, is how beautiful and amazing our people have been and still are. Like, displayed all the crap that has been placed and enforced upon us. It's absolutely amazing what we have to offer the world. And when I think about what has been here in on Turtle Island and all of the Americas, in terms of things they care, the surgeries, the pharmaceuticals, the structures, the aqueducts, the fluids. It's amazing what Indigenous people are contributing to the world. Is it recognized by most of the world, but it's amazing what our people have had to offer. And it, it comes down to even our practicing around trying to support and compliment them. We have beautiful things to offer. And there's a reason why our ceremonies are practiced. They're set up the way the art is because they're based upon this long, long history of amazing contributions to the world that our people simply and so your podcast to work is a piece of that, a reflection of that. So again, thank you for that. Yeah, I don't know what to say. This is a hot need. Tiri, I don't know what to say, but we come from the earth. Can we replay that part? Can you just say that? Can you say one more time? You haven't recorded it. Yeah, it's recorded. Hey, that's something I'll remember 10 years from now. When I, when I see you at ceremony, Hey, remember that time you told us? No, but thank you. That's that feels good. And I think that it feels good because and I'll say this that one of the things that I know that Terry and I really want to wanted to ensure is that our voices are here, our voices are at this or we're reclaiming, taking back whatever language folks want to use that this is our space. And this is how we've always learned and and communicate this type of way. And I think that one of the things that we were really excited about is that we are talking to people who we've read the books. We read the work. There's people who have paved the paved the way for us to come in and to do this work. And that our hope is is that our kids, if they choose to be in social work or whatever they choose to do. And all of our collective children will have another like this is just chapter books, right? This is just part of a story. And so and so we thank you for for paving the way for us and and for doing the work because we know that at different times in our colonial history it's been difficult for people to do the work. And because of work like yourself and some of the others that we've spoke to our jobs aren't as hard. And and so we struggle but they're not as hard and and so and I and I really believe that. And so I thank you and and the the others who have paved the way for us that we are our jobs are a little bit easier because of that. Well you'll you'll face a new set of challenges that weren't there when I was because we weren't that far along down the road but your turn will come to open it up for others to think you know. Start hitting people, right? Don't worry, they're coming. Thanks Michael. Everybody's eyelashes are fine. I know my eyelashes are falling off here. Don't make me cry. But yes thank you again Michael. We appreciate you and and yeah thank you very much. A child born into a world revolutions how to choice fighting to be hers so we make them hear our voice. Remember ancestors anguish like me in our veins. Hear it in the language when our kitchen for the rain. I am product of people that persevere persecution. Paint me so creator sees me. If I go off chewing experience or pain when our women disappear dating I'm anxious to be angry pacifist. My hate me trolls on the internet constantly trying to bait me. We moving silence cover over the night learning from the woods in the forest tracking enemies in the woods re-incarnations of lawyers writing for salvation or are we false prophets when we submit to sentencing and recolonization is a hell of a drug we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love I say colonization is a hell of a drug we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love I say colonization is a hell of a drug we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love I shoo Two crees in a pod.