Warner Bros Co-Chairs & CEOs, Michael De Luca & Pamela Abdy

For over 35 years Todd Garner has overseen blockbuster films like Conair, Anchor Management, Triple X, 13 Going on 30 and the Mortal Kombat franchise. Why are they letting you make these movies? Join Todd as he shares tips and stories from the front lines of producing in Hollywood. I'm Adam Sandler. I'm Rev. Wilson. This is Jeff Broke. I'm Kayleigh Quoco. I'm Eli Roth. This is Mal ways. Hey, it's Ed Helms. This is Shane Mitchell. Everybody, this is Kevin James. And this is the producer's guide. The producer's guide. The producer's guide with Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. What a combination. Welcome to the producer's guide. I'm Todd Garner. Today we have two very special guests in Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi. Cochairs and CEOs of Warner Brothers Motion Picture Group. Together, they oversee global theatrical production, marketing and distribution for Warner Brothers Pictures, New Line Cinema, and Warner Brothers Pictures Animation. They joined Warner Brothers in 2022 after having senior leadership roles at MGM, where they shepherded films such as House of Gucci, Liquor's Pizza, and Creed III. Prior to joining Warner Brothers, Mike and Pam had both had long, influential executive and producing careers. Pam, with a hugely successful track record or jersey films, New Regency, Make Ready, and Paramount Pictures. And Mike rose through the ranks through New Line Cinema to the level of President and COLO. He then transitioned to producing where he not only had huge box office successes, but has earned multiple best picture nominations. Mike and Pam have had an incredible year, both financially and critically, earning $4 billion in global box office and 18 golden globe nominations for their slate this year. On today's episode, we talk about studio leadership, betting on filmmakers, franchise building, and the future of theatrical cinema. Enjoy. All right. I am here with Michael DeLuke and Pam Abdi. More affectionately known as Mike and Pam. Hello, guys. Hi. Good morning. Hi. Honestly, without fear of contradiction, your names have been mentioned more on this iteration of the podcast by a factor of 10 than anybody else. Oh, my God. That's so nice. I think there are many reasons, but I want to say one of the main reasons for me, and personally, is just how much you value producers, how incredible you guys have been to producers. You were producers yourselves when producers United came to all the studios to talk about healthcare and commencement wages you two were the first to step up. So personally, I want to say thank you for being so amazing to producers and so incredibly generous and thoughtful about your reaction to all of our causes. So I really, really appreciate that. Absolutely. It's an honor to do it, as you know, as anyone who actually knows how movies get made in our industry, producers are the spine that oversee things and work both the talent side and protect the fiscal investment of the studio. It's a tough line to walk and producers are in the center of it, and a lot of times we're unsung heroes that's how movies reach the audience. Also, I want to say congratulations to your 18 Golden Globe nominations, which just came out this morning. Thank you. So well deserved. Thank you. So well deserved you guys. So you talked about the fine line between art and fiscal responsibility, and I've talked to people about this. And I think that what you two are burdened with, which you aren't burdened with, or it used to be that you weren't burdened with until you became president of production, which is, before president of production, you kind of just could go full tilt and just love what you loved and say to your bosses, like, we have to make this, right? And then once you become president of production, you realize they lift the veil and go, this is as hard it is for a business. And so what's so incredible about you two is you've walked that line obviously so successfully this year, yet somehow maintained your artistic integrity, and really your taste has really come through from both of your past. And I just want to start with a little anecdote. When you and I and Pam had lunch, I think you had just bought centers maybe three or four days before. And you were talking, you said, I just bought a movie that I would put my career on. I don't care what happens with that filmmaker and this idea, I would put my career on it. And I thought, wow, what an incredible thing to say. Little did I know that you actually did, but actually with Cornell, right? That would actually be the case. Yeah. So walk me through, first of all, you two, how did you guys become partners? And then as an endendom to that, when did you both realize how sympathico you guys were in terms of your taste and the complimentary values you have in terms of making movies? When Pam and I met in the 90s, instant, sympathico in terms of taste and just worldview and addiction to pop culture. We had a lot of the same taste and art in movies and music. We're also part of a crew, you know, a group of friends that included the late, the dearly departed director, Ted Demi, writer Richard, the Robin Eastie. You know, we had so many friends in common, Stacy Cher, who was a mentor to Pam produced for two movies for a new line. So we were all kind of intertwined and I just saw kindred spirit and Pam immediately. I totally agree. We joke about it all the time. I met Mike in the editing room when he was running new line on Richard's movie and realized that we really really had the same kind of vision and taste. But we didn't start, we didn't become true partners, probably until MGM and this job, you know, and what was so exciting about doing it together is we have different tastes. But we also, we have the same vision about directors. We love filmmakers. We love sitting with directors. We believe that directors are IP and we both have thought that our whole careers, both separately and now together. So the fact that we get to do this job together, we have so much fun. We laugh, you know, we get to support and champion. We laugh a lot. We get to champion these amazing incredible directors. There's nothing better out there. This is, it's been, it's just been truly the most gratifying experience I've had in my career being partners with Mike. So you are co chairman and co CEOs, correct? Correct. Yes. In that role, what would you describe your top priorities in the current climate? Well, you know, setting the setting the studio up for success in the world we live in now. So obviously we've been through a lot of changes in disruptions, including the pandemic, including, you know, the rise of streaming in people's lives as choices, the strikes. You know, just having the studio emerge from all of those, including change of previous ownership, making sure that the legacy of Warner Brothers continued and that we could add to it. You know, we stand on the shoulders of giants who have been responsible for so many successful runs of filmmakers at the studio. Our North Star was adapt the studio to the challenges of the current environment, change where change was necessary, you know, try to, try to brush out all the old models and challenge all assumptions and retool the studio to be a cutting edge 21st century studio, both in, you know, marketing campaigns, distribution strategies, choice of material, just top to bottom, positioning for the environment that we're in now. When you first arrived at the studio and you went in and you sat in that chair for the first time. What were the biggest challenges you faced at that moment? Just the industry disruption that was going on and and how were we as new leaders going to come in here, give our teams the support they need really understand what was working and wasn't working before and come in and present our vision and our dreams and hopes for the for the slate and really get everybody firing on all cylinders and feeling that they had the resources and the support from Mike and I to do what they do best. You know, it's challenging when companies change and it's really about the teams, you know, and how do you how do you show up as leaders for those teams so whether it was, you know, giving Richard Brenner the support that he could do have would he need it for this year to be successful. You know, we elevated Jesse Irman into his role and making sure his team was firing on all cylinders and then bringing in Bill Dimashkey to come in and launch, you know, Warner Brothers animation. So that was that was day one was here's our vision for the studio, who's who's our leadership team going to be and how are we going to set them up for success. Okay, well, you get there and you you are given a realistic runway, right? I mean, everybody knew at the time that this wasn't a forever thing. You were you were given a set of a mandate come in, make this thing turn around as quickly as possible because somewhere out there, there probably will be a change. It was the vibe and the ether at the time when you guys took the job. Most people taking that job would say, great. Let's make another lethal weapon. Let's make three more matrices. Matrix is let's lean on our IP. Let's make a bunch of sequels. You guys did not do that. Well, first of all, why did you not do that? And second of all, when you were handed that baton, you opened the door to the most incredible filmmakers to bring you the most. Insane ideas. What walked me through the kind of the balance you guys walked of the fate, the safe road, which you could have taken for the short term. Had those undeniable, which is the word I hate the most in this movie business right now and quote unquote theatrical. But you two did not do that. So what was going through your mind when you were taking those meetings with those those filmmakers and saying, you know what? We're going to bet it all essentially on these movies going forward in our first interview really with David Zazzle for the job. We talked about the mix of originals and IP adaptations and legacy sequels and continuing, you know, franchises that we could walk into a gum at the same time. The one of the great advantages of being at Warner Brothers is you had, you know, exposure and an access to so much IP and the opportunity to continue franchises like the conjuring and like foul destination and start new franchises like Minecraft and hopefully what we're doing. What I know is going to work out with Bill Dimashky and animation. So David Zazzle have never posed it as a binary choice or a mutually exclusive thing. He wanted a mix of originals and, you know, taking advantage of the studios IP obviously rebooting DC with James and Peter is a big part of that strategy. But the idea was to have something for everyone. The idea was if you don't have a temple or a franchise picture in a quarter, don't make nothing, make three or four movies in the aggregate could add up to 500, 600 million worldwide. That was the strategy deployed with new line this year and they hit a billion everything overperformed, you know, once we kind of made our changes in marketing and distribution and added that jet fuel to to filmmakers that came in and innovated within those genres. So from the word go, it was always, you know, our slate strategy with David was always going to be a mix of originals and, you know, what we thought were the franchises that made sense to continue like beetle juice. Now we're, you know, in early pre-production with the gremlins and goonies. We're very cautious about IP fatigue and franchise fatigue. We've all seen it. Things that look safe on paper sometimes are not safe on paper and we've seen studios run themselves into ditches, you know, thinking that things are ever green when they're not. And it really goes to we believe that the audience considers originality a perk and a marketing hook in and of itself. You know, people get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again. But then there are franchises and, and IP adaptations that are in demand and you just kind of, you just kind of kind of use your best data available and you look at comms. But we all know, you know that that things on paper don't always tell the whole story and Pam and I in our experience myself at new line and in my various studio jobs in my career as a producer and Pam with her experience as a producer and her time. Regency and her own company with Brad Weston make ready. We've all seen things on paper that should that looked risky that ended up being some of our safest bets and we've seen franchises and things that look safe on paper completely fall apart because people had moved on. So it's really, you know, trying to treat talent like IP, not look at IP in the absence of who's making it and who's the eventual audience and what is the size of that audience. We really look at the filmmakers as IP and that's that's another north star of ours. Right. So Pam, how do you approach franchise management like what goes through your mind is you guys are doing exactly what Mike said, evaluating what the audience sizes, evaluating what they want. Taking into account the fans when you have such huge IP, how do you approach making sure that the audience doesn't get fatigued. Well, I think it's about marrying the IP with the right voice that's telling it and the filmmakers and the writers that are telling that story can never approach IP with any sort of cynicism. It must come from pure place of passion for those characters for those stories. It's and it takes time, you know, when we when we first got here it was about looking at what was here, what scripts were available to us are the scripts good enough do we have the right voice coming with passion to tell that story. Like beetle juice got off the ground pretty quickly when we got here because timber and a Michael Keaton were ready to tell that story. It had taken over 30 I think 35 years for them to come back together, but it can never happen if you don't have the right filmmaker telling that story. It's why you know Wonka with Paul King or when Greta you know we were so lucky to get here and Greta and Noah and Margo and everybody telling the Barbie story Barbie is not Barbie without Greta and Noah script, you know, and I think that's how we approach franchise management. It's really important that you know you even a movie like Minecraft Jared has loved those characters you know he he believed in that game he believed in that story he believed in those characters he loved it he lived and breathe it. That's how you approach franchise management. Even on something like Final Destination there were four previous sequels you know to a franchise that actually began when I was at new long in the 90s that thing that thing worked because of John Watts and his original idea and he came at movie but mostly Zach and Adam the directors. Innovated within the genre and innovated within the franchise they're the reason that that movie overperformed and same with Michael Chavez and conjuring like a key they it's very important with these with these franchises and legacy sequels to innovate within that franchise is sometimes innovate within the genres and that's that's what we try to to look at when we have when we test Jesse Irman and and Brenner and build a masquerade to choose filmmaking teams that you know that know that that's the mission stage. I know from experiences how much you love the movies both of you and and speaking of the franchise you started Mike Deluca in 95 the Mortal Kombat franchise seeing seeing that movie. Coming soon coming this year yeah seeing Todd's new Mortal Kombat two with a test audience is one of the best experiences. That was the one fun that I was going to say it's just a roller coaster ride yeah and Pam sitting next to me going why are they cheering right now and I'm like I love this part. It was great it was great and I that's what I love about you guys so much is just how much you you love movies and and love what what you guys do. There is a flip side of that which is fear Billy Ray kind of started this off where he talked about faith over fear. I have never in my 30 plus years of doing this seems so much fear in the business everywhere I mean obviously it comes from the pandemic it comes from strikes it comes from consolidation it comes from obviously is top down pressure of. Performer be fired but specifically executives are so so so fearful and are just grabbing its draws trying to find the thing that is quote unquote undeniable quote unquote theatrical and these. Pressures from the top down to mitigate risk you guys obviously human you you you must feel fear how do you overcome fear to make the decisions you guys have made to have led you to so much success when you were when you were pulling those triggers as you said to me Mike four days after. You bought centers you like I'll buy on this hill for this movie how how how do you guys do that is it the fact of your partners and you can talk to each other off the ledge because fear is everywhere and you guys I know feel it but you somehow overcome it walk me through that. Well you know I think I think as far as centers Paul's movie hit me the same way I think I was more responding to the emotional impact of reading those scripts means centers when you got to that part with the musical montage where he's showing you different errors and and I found the ending especially moving and and you know and Paul's movie they are the kind of movies you know that I got into the movie business to champion so. It's not like we thought you know we were really putting our lives on the line because we don't you know in the grown up business part of our industry you don't look at quarter by quarter or even movie by movie you're really you know and this has been this has been true for a century you have a years worth of releases and at the end of the year in the aggregate you look at are you in the black green the red you know it's it's not a business where you torture every. Quarter and every movie and we all know including our bosses in every version of a boss that ever had that they're not all going to work but you make your reasonable best assumption based on passion and the data that's available but we're never going to breed risk out of our business if you want to be in a risk free business this is not the business to be and so to sit and wine about it or to worry about it isn't very productive or effective now we are human course we have anxiety you have you're also your hopes are wrapped up and you want to win for the filmmakers you want them to win you you've been a studio head and a producer as well Todd you know you fall in love with these projects you fall in love with the people every new film is like a family that that pops up and if you really believe in it passionately if you're currently moved by something you think it's going to uplift your studio and add to to the patina of your studio and add to the library and just you know stand for what the studio is about obviously one has this history with a variety of filmmakers you go for it you know the way we manage it is as as we feel like to be good professionals and to be good stewards of the studio and to do our jobs effectively you can't do the job like you're afraid to lose it it is just not not possible to perform that way fear and anxiety kills innovation in any business and if you kill innovation the audience will move on because people get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again so you have to make decisions you know it's not not to say we're robots and you don't have human feelings but you can't make decisions based on fear and anxiety it especially in our business you know you can approach building a slate with fear because then you'll make no decisions and it's our responsibility to go to our teams also they need to be in an environment like you ask the questions like studio executives that are facing you know you said based on living in fear right now the only thing they should fear is not making a movie right is not because you're just a championing something because if you're just sitting in the job and not taking all the wonderful talent that you have you have you're accessible to all the talent in the world so your job as an executive is to go out and find the best storytellers and bring them to the studio and it's my can my job to have a well balanced slate so that we have something for everyone and that's that's how people up to and if we create a atmosphere where there's anxiety or your fear then our executives can't be their best selves and I think we both learned very early in our careers whether we you know had mentors that help that that shaped us or gave us inspiration they didn't do the jobs that way so you can't live in that space you know and like Mike said you you just it kills creativity living in a state of panic or fear. One of the best things about this year is we're hoping you know that you know since the studio this year achieved four billion in in box office the last time that happened was 2019 with seven additional movies so I think you know the the fact that we get it with seven less movies points to the robust you know condition of the the global theatrical audience they are wanting to come to the to the movies and we did it with an eclectic mix of movies and we're hoping that inspires other studios to step up and you know I think I'm more you know people know I've said this before I'm a glass half full person I think if there's a deficit or reduction in global box office we're still seeing as a hangover from pandemic it's not because of the audience it's because there's almost an equal percentage of less movies being made and I think you know if any if our success stands for anything this year or aside from the talent of the filmmakers and our marketing distribution people it's that the audience is there of all demos of you know all of all stripes and and they're still you know they're still underfed. Yeah and it's also that the studios are making the same things everything feels everything feels similar right everything feels like six flavors at a ice cream shop you know it's like it and I think the audience gets tired of that and they get they get to a place where they feel I've seen this already all I can wait for you guys created some urgency by like you said having a very eclectic slate and I will say this I have talked about people exact standing on the desk and especially young exec standing on the desk you two are the definition of standing on the desk even your even at your high level you still are doing that you still are fighting for the things that you can be very annoying we can be very very annoying. Yes very. I don't believe that to be true at all. No it's true. We're like we're like dogs with bones sometimes. I will say this Mike you said you're judged on your year the media for sure waited till you guys were at your full year before proclaiming whether it was going to be a success or not when you are going through that when you're going through Mike and Pam watch which felt like a friggin stop clock on my feed every day and everybody's anticipating and guessing and prognosticating what's going to happen it's kind of like what's happening right now with the sale of Warner Brothers everybody's prognosticating what's going to happen everybody's got their two cents how do you continue making movies going through your day when you're dealing with all that bullshit of people just guessing what's going to happen when you just said you have to wait till the end of the year look back and say okay we did great and you're not judged on one movie but now with the media since it's this clickbait everybody's got to keep rage baiting and making headlines how do you keep your head down and just say ignore the fucking noise I'm going to continue doing my job when all that shit's coming at you and I'm sure you're having to deal with it on one of every five phone calls of saying you know hey I know what we have I know what cards were holding they don't and so let's just keep doing the job walk me through kind of what that experience was like and then when you finally went and relax that everybody kind of got off your back just did a pretty good job articulating you know how to deal with it Todd you the job is 24/7 where you know our minds are in programming the 28 slate at this point you are dealing with you know in our jobs you're dealing with not only the distribution strategy the release plate strategy in the campaigns but also the development production the packaging of the movies with your you know heads of your divisions it's a it's a full on 24/7 job so there's not a lot of time to to let you know the clickbait industry you know take time away from your actual job so yes we're human was it a pleasant experience no it was you know we're kind of in a in a there's always been scrutiny as there should be in you know frankly on on any industry in any any business and you know ours gets its its fair share so that comes with the territory you know we're grown-ups and it comes with the job we did think it was a bit odd to pronounce judgment on films that hadn't come out yet and I remember there was one headline that I found particularly you know kind of unfair mostly because it drew the filmmakers into the needless speculation it's one of the clickbait platforms said we were quote unquote burning cash at winners and I just thought my God like you know like investing in Michael B Jordan and Ryan Kugler as a team which is I think the least risky thing we did in our careers probably given their track record together investing in Paul Thomas Anderson who I think is our generations the Stanley Kubrick and and and I hesitate to get careful makers to other filmmakers is you know it's not he's larger than that he's and he's a global treasure to us but we did with the rest of the slate I just thought that that was that was that was a sad you know characterization of the role of a Hollywood studio and investing in the best storytellers and the best and and the best stories which is is all we try to do and and bring to global audiences so compartmentalize as best we can and drown it out it literally you know has zero meaning to anyone except us the irony is we're the ones that subscribe to it all and we're the ones that and I am you know I subscribe to them all I love reading about our industry I'm obsessed with it I love the punditry I love the free marketplace of ideas and opinions and analysis the ticket buyer the average ticket buyer around the world could care less and isn't clocking any of it I was at cinema con actually even and exhibition obviously is in our business at the height of that you know negativity that was going on in the first quarter of this year and I spoke to several to several exhibitors who had absolutely no idea well that any of that had come out so it was a reminder that you know we're in a little bit of a bubble community but we just kept art like you said we just kept our heads down and that our jobs and instructed you know all the people that work with us to just keep the eye on the prize which was the execution of the 25 slate like you said we have inside information that other people are in privilege to we're the only ones in the rooms with our colleagues and with David Zazlove having our conversations nobody else is we're the only ones who have seen the rough cuts and seen the test scores and seen the campaigns none of the outside world has so you know we in a way it's an unfair advantage but you know I sympathize and empathize with the job they have to do they have to report on an industry from the outside and make best guesses and speculate and they're driven a lot by anonymous sources that you know that sometimes can be working their own agenda so I try to keep it all in mind you know and and be chill about it yeah it's just a balanced Todd you know it's like we have each other too you know so the good the good news through that is that when if we are human you know it's not fun reading about yourself every day but that the biggest set for me was that these movies just were not given a fair shake because people were writing about them like they were going to be dead on arrival before they saw a trailer and shocking to me I don't remember a time in our business when that was the case and that part of it was so like I couldn't wrap my head around it you know that part made me upset we get recapping at the end of the year this was pre-capping was a new one on me yeah yeah and and the breathless pearl clutching of how much everything cost well that's the other thing that's the other thing that I don't like at all that is happening by the way I didn't to this date I have not read an accurate reporting of a budget or a marketing spend yet in any of these outlets nothing has been accurate but that's the thing when did we start judging the quality of a film based on what the cost of what someone's assumed cost of a film was okay we didn't used to do that before and the industry is it's become that people should say thank God studios are making movies that have that they're bringing out globally across the world with world-class filmmakers and giving them a budget that is commiserate with what that movie needs and then judge the film based listen not everything's gonna work so you that's fine if the movie comes out and we took a swing and we missed financially or we missed creatively fair game that's that's the job you got to tell the journalist that I understand you know that the business and can chart profitability from theatrical release you know through through p-vod to s-vod there was there was a lot of balance coverage too so you know we it's just it depends on what your source is here's what's so fucking insane to me about it okay so I literally but you pay your money for your fucking ticket right it is however much it is you have to base as a consumer whether or not it was worth that price right I could see if somebody said you know what Mike and Pam fuck you I'm not paying $300 for a center's ticket right because you spend too much money on it right that's not what you're saying it's still the same amount of money whether movie costs 20 or 500 right so I have to say did you get your money's worth it's not like you go to a restaurant you go that was the most incredible meal I had but you know what they spent $50 in them in their in their in their in their ingredients and they only charge me 35 that was a flop like no you don't fucking do that right and also I'm telling you both right now I would have paid $200 just to sit in that 70 millimeter theater and watch that fucking highway sequence on in Paul's movie just that and so you gave me my value as a team for the Todd's audience know he's these numbers are just an expression Todd is using we're not these things it didn't cost $200 to go sit and see centers it did not but I'm just saying you're not even you're not even demanding your audience do that you're you're saying here's the ticket price I'm gonna pack as much entertainment in that product as humanly possible to you to entertain the audience but somehow the it becomes this thing of like well yeah this made this much money but it costs that much money so it's a flop it's just what is proven which is data you click way more often on headlines that are negative period and there's no other excuse for it I mean we are a business and I get you know that that there should be and there is business reporting and that's yeah that's fine it is paired with you know the clickbait industry which is which is you know relatively new on the scene if you're counting by by decades in our history and we all know those algorithms run on negativity and and and it's easy to get people to click on negative headlines so we get it it's a little bit of of of that going on and thankfully some honest business reporting next time again that's what's in you and your boss right at the end of the year you're gonna be a you have plenty of people evaluating like the look at them I promise you yes you do not need every studio has a whole department of evaluators we do not need some dude on ex going yeah well not at all you guys have plenty of people evaluating your performance on a minute by minute basis so Pam based on all of this we talked about fear and and business how do you evaluate which projects you choose well it all starts with this I mean it's really basic it all starts with the script do I love the script do I love these characters do I want to spend the next two years of my life with these characters because you know that's essentially what it is you know by the time you start and market the movie and get it out into the world and and it's really about trying to find stories that I think have a dedicated audience you know at least like I know who we're making the movie for and then is there the potential for that movie to expand beyond that audience you know and just really it comes from there's no like math math math math equation to it it's really about my gut and do I does it move me am I emotional when I'm reading something you know do I do I love the the voice the filmmaker sometimes it starts with that like I'm dying to like if I'm dying to work with this filmmaker what do they have to say what do they want to say what kind of playground do they want to play and do they want to bring their voice to a different genre like all of that stuff excites me and that's sort of how I approach it and as you guys are moving through to now you're saying you're into the 2028 slate and you're moving through the business and the changes of the business are you guys seeing any opportunities out there with all this all these shifting sense like taking the whole sale off the table for a second because that you have no control over the things you can control as you're seeing kind of the shifts and you see like as you said Mikey guys made four billion dollars a worldwide gross you haven't done that since 2019 on seven less movies and seven less movies exactly what opportunities are you looking forward to is you're kind of looking out at the landscape in 2028 well Todd I am actually so excited you know and I know you're the same way you know there's so much new emerging talent because the tools of filmmaking have gotten so much more accessible and affordable so you know I was blown away by the Philip who brothers and talked to me so they came off of Raka Raka their YouTube channel you know there are there are filmmakers exploding off of YouTube we're seeing filmmakers you know got the traditional route make a short film go to a film festival and there's the filmmakers you know that are that are going DTC on platforms like YouTube the places where we're getting new talent you know to to to look to and to approach us is I don't think it's ever been more exciting obviously you know we all live through a wonderful Renaissance in the 90s where you saw West Anderson inspired Jones of Paul Thomas Anderson and King Pearson and Stephen Soderbergh old emerge and I really feel like we're in another era like that as the audience baton is passed from Gen X to Gen Z and Gen Alpha you see I'm very inspired by the work of me on an 824 and and how their films have an urgency for younger movie goers younger movie goers were a big part of you know the collective that made Wonka and Barbie and Minecraft giant hits I think James and Peter brought brand new audiences to this Superman I'm really excited about both the generational shift we we lived through one you know when when in the 90s when when it was passed from baby boomers to Gen X I think we're in one again I get so excited about the places that new talent is coming from and the choices that audiences have both both on streaming and for theatrical so when we when we choose projects obviously there's that got emotional reaction of you know I fell in love with the script for weapons I started turning those pages and I was like holy fuck this is incredible and I felt the same way reading the script for sinners as we talked about Paul's movie all our movies this year it starts with that personal you know feeling of of just excitement and joy and and these are the things that Jesse Irman and and Richard Brenner and Bill Damascus advocate up to us and we try to make sure they have the resources to keep their pipelines going to bring us the things that they're excited about and then what's wonderful about working at a studio is then you take your enthusiasm and enthusiasm of your of your label heads and we you know you know with David's as love decided on a label strategy where we have four doors at the studio that you can bring projects through DC warners new line and now animation and we're still looking to expand we're still looking to expand our slate into areas you know the involves a wider variety of movies and it's that just you know search for new voices but also pairing you know our IP and sequels and franchises with a new talent that can innovate within those genres that keep it really really exciting for us and so coming back full circle to where I began this conversation about how incredible you've been to the producing community as as you guys have been producers yourselves walk me through what you guys look for in a producer so I started out as a producer and had the wonderful opportunity of you know learning from Danny DeVito Michael Shamberg and Stacy Cher and they fostered a company that was like it was they did everything right from the sourcing the script developing the script understood story and structure working with the filmmakers advocating for the filmmakers delivering the movies on budget and being nuts and bolts types of producers I worked you know really closely with Stacy and and Danny for as a matter of fact as his assistant really learning the the business of producing so I'm always looking for in our producers the articulation of an understanding of all the complexities of putting a movie together which is fighting for the filmmakers vision but also the balance on delivering what we need as a studio and that they're present and they are present for all parts of the you know the process it's you know it doesn't start the day your movie gets greenlit it's like it's there you know you have to be there for every step of the way because it's quality control it's partnership with the filmmakers it's casting the right crew around the filmmakers it's finding the right department heads that are going to support the village the vision and challenge the vision you know I love when we're challenged as a studio I love the debate between studio filmmaker that's where magic really happens and I think the producer like Mike said early on in this conversation they are sometimes the unsung heroes because it is such a it's such a a tightrope that you have to walk where you're never losing sight of what's important which is why we all wanted to make the movie in the first place because of the script we read and we loved it and making sure the producers the person that I believe really stays on top of that making sure that we're getting what you need from the script so that when we get into post we have all the tools you know we have all the elements that we need to try and make this movie the best it can be and when you're in post you're getting all that feedback from the from the audience how much do you guys rely on data both in terms of the post process but also I hear a lot about people using a ton of data to try to figure out what they should green light how important is data to you guys in your decision making process I think it plays a role I don't think we you know over invest in it because a lot of times data can only look backwards and I do believe you know to have a successful studio you do need to look forward and there are going to be things the audience didn't know they wanted until it's in front of their faces and you never want to do anything that'll ahead bit I think you know innovation I know I know you used that word a lot but I think it's really true that audiences will move on and find their innovation elsewhere if you don't keep that in the forefront of your in your mind while you're while you're managing an artistic enterprise so we we like every studio use it we use comps we use data and analytics to determine you know sometimes the size of an audience or what's the most effective way to market a movie they're just kind of tools and a toolkit but at the end of the day it's human beings making art for other human beings you know for the purpose of generating revenue and you never want to take the human element out too much because it it you don't want to inhibit your organization's ability to to maximize the creative talent of both your executives the producers the filmmakers and data while it can be predictive there's no such thing as a sure thing in our business we've seen that over and over so you don't want to ignore data that seems obvious but you also don't want to make decisions solely based on things that just look backwards I think yeah and you know the data you get in post production I think in a test screening which is so useful to everybody is is the audience confused is it feel too long some places are you moved at the end of the movie that you want to go tell your friends about it that's what that's what the purpose of of that is you can't base a movie success or failure solely on one thing I mean all the data you gather is just like tools in the toolkit you know and you take it and use it and see how it helps you target audiences or what audiences are responding to something I mean I think it's all useful information but you know you can't live or die by it this is my 40th year in the business I've sat in about a billion test screenings I still think the most valuable thing about a test screening is just vibing the audience and just sitting and watching the movie with them more than like the numbers that result from sticking a pencil like you you get it like just sitting there you know having the experience with them and you know yes we all pay attention to the scores and they they can't point you know with the filmmakers you know being your ally and that they can't point to where they want to show up certain things in the storytelling but I think the best thing about that that process is just experiencing the movie with them yeah and I will say having done that with you I've made a lot of movies for you Mike and I've been through these screenings with you guys together as well and what with what's the most and then again I'd thank you for supporting being so supportive of producing is that you guys after a screening are really if if everybody understands what the job is you're very good at leaving everybody let to let them do their job so much so then fact I thought well maybe Mike and Pam were just being like you know quiet because a lot of filmmakers I called you Mike specifically and I go just want to make you go Todd you know what to do just go do it yeah it was so great we don't need to make sure I'm doing the right thing man and you're like just go do it yeah you know you you were there yeah go do it and I think that says a lot about you guys in terms of your trust of of filmmakers and and the way you see the creative process it's not just about putting your thumb on the scale all the time no no I think cooked in the kitchen itis is also can be destructive I do think audiences and I'm counting myself I am a you know me I'm a consumer of all media I mean I barely sleep three or four hours at night because I'm watching everybody else's movies and TV shows I love it I've loved it since I was three years old and got plopped down in front of a television I absorb it all audiences get so much content now that they can tell when something is committed or prefabricated or only exists because a bunch of executives got in a room and said we need to do this they crave authorship they crave you know a sense of authenticity and you know I was so moved recently by a real that Denis Villeneuve put together we presented a real with legendary to Rich Gelfon and I max of just the care and the scope that this man and the and the craft that he was putting into this movie you know doing doing part three you know Ryan did a similar thing with with Kodak for Kodak on on sinners I think the I think directors talking about the authorship and and it could be anything it could be Jared has with Minecraft it could be Zach and Adam on final destination the court the care that these filmmakers in the detail and the and the years their lives are giving over it to tell the audience hey we made this for you to come to a theater and experience communally as an event we know that your time is precious we know it takes a lot to get you to be a ticket buyer our ability to communicate that to the audience has become a real you know perk in terms of how we build campaigns cinephilism used to be I find you know used to be a niche thing but now thanks to things like letterbox and the desire for that authenticity it's become more mainstream and I think that's wonderful that's one of my favorite things about how the business has evolved you know that that the director and the producer and the craftsman and the writers and all the people that devote years of their lives to get you to get to that theater them telling their story and opening you know up the process a little bit has become very valuable to us as we as we as we market ourselves it's so exciting to see the audience is engagement in that you know I think the that's a big lesson that we've taken away this year is we don't we don't as an industry do that enough like the audience likes it they like hearing about how something's made and how much care and love is put into every detail and like I don't know if they that you know that that's been a real lesson this year I think for me is that engagement with the audience and that dialogue that the filmmakers are having directly with the audience yeah what's what's unusual then is we know this and we can see that the audience is craving singular visions and and what's interesting is that television is leaning more into that where you can feel Tim Burton's fingers all over Wednesday or you can you can feel Vince Gilligan's fingers all over Pluribus but there is this thing that happened Mike you and I remember because we were president you've been president so many times one of the time you're president we were president at the same time and you and I and Subaru and Lorenzo and and we used to fuck with each other you'd love to go after movies because we all loved movies and you know we're not I think one of the biggest joys of my life is when I got punched drunk love just halfway because I wanted to work with Paul Thomas Anderson but halfway because I snagged him away from you for a moment and it was a really fun time I asked I want to say like I feel sometimes like about you and our contemporaries you know Stu Burdana Lorenzo all the people that were our group that we grew up with yeah in the 90s I feel like we're the we're the military field commanders like we're the we're the battles hardens sergeants that you know the Sean pan at the end of thin red line you know we're always there the civilian management may change you know the the heads of the defense department and the president of the United States and the civilian leadership may come and go but where we've been a family you know of that next generation that got the torch passed in the 90s and we're still all really good friends and we're we're all still loving what we do and I gotta say Todd you're run you know with Disney in that period it was epic and you know there was the Todd Garner movie there was the you know the you redefined action to be populist in action with humor with con air and the rock and to run your one on with Michael Bay and you know that that opportunity to get your hands on a studio and make it just a cool clubhouse for the best filmmakers I mean you you had one of those experiences yourself and you know how valuable they are and how wonderful they are and that's the thing I could tell you what a pan acting movies I could tell you what a Michael Deluca movie is that's what my point was there was a shift and I think it was I think it was rightly so I think marketing was like hey you guys are just handing us movies do we can't sell we need a voice in the room and then suddenly all these voices came into these green light committees when we were doing the job really the only reason you wanted to be chairman is you had soul green light like we all were like because there's no other reason to want to do that job other than green light movies and and before and so now there's this big there's these huge committees I'm not I don't even know who's in the room at Warner Brothers but I've talked about it before it's hard to get four people to decide where to have dinner let alone 17 people decide what movies to make and I think that that singular vision gets lost sometimes in that committee process how do you guys approach your green light and how do you keep your you know the Mike Michael Deluca movie the Pan Abdy movie inside of these big systems I mean to be honest with you I've really never found a problem with advocacy you know both as a studio executive either in a junior position or the position I'm in now where I'm working for people or as a producer you're advocating so it's then it's in your interest to build a constituency it's in your interest to build that advocacy you know Pam and I expose every project to our international territories to the marketing distribution people we want the feedback it's not it's not the Mike Deluca Pan Abdy production company and even when I had my own production company it's about advocacy because it takes a village it's not it's not you know it you want all your people as a producer you obviously want to gain that green light from your studio and or your finance here and that that comes from advocacy with you in the filmmaker and sometimes the cast when you're a student executive you know you're you're building that advocacy within your organization so to me it's always been the same it's it's never been a and I never wanted it to be a solo process no matter no matter what my contract says it's you want the whole team behind you because when that movie we've we've never just handed a movie to marketing and said hey we made this now you go sell that everybody's on board early at you know whenever Pam and I have done this job and we did it at MGM we bring the filmmaker in immediately to meet all the marketing people meet all the distribution people so everybody feels like they're all part the same family we think it's really important yeah it's extremely we start with you know because we're doing stuff on set too you know you you don't just market movies now you have to it has to be a build you know so that you're you're starting as early as when you're shooting the film to make sure that you have all those elements for our teams you know to so that they can sell these movies to the world yeah and it's a conversation you're having with your audience even from that or absolutely I've been very lucky and I think Pam is very lucky we've had bosses that have you know at the end of the day back to our plays and that's all you can really hope for you know when you're when you're working on this side of the desk and when you're a producer um you know you're you're you're still advocating you're just you're advocating for that executive to go into their system and and advocate on your behalf yeah well I can say this version of marketing mortal combat was a dream honestly and and Mike Jones and Brenner and news and you guys have been incredible with with letting us talk to them I understand the fanbase very very well I know you do Mike as well and listening to them and making those adjustments and trying weird things like that weird 90s 90s trailer and these things and you know making a trailer that the fans could do a fan reaction for to get those to get those eyeballs on it has just been a dream it's been it's been such a great conversation and everybody's like because there are some time to say like the the performance of Xan and Usbam uh Christian Dev and John Stanford is the new leadership in more amazing um this year has every single movie overperformed and it really is due to just their fresh thinking and all the creative energy energy they unlocked in their department and then you know we we went and then we also went for um since it's such a global business you know making Jeff Goldstein the global head of distribution um it just it just energize that entire side of the studio it's exciting we we always we always say Mike and I always say like we're a 100 year old studio but right now this team we we have startup energy you know we approach every day like we're a startup company and that's so exciting it's been so dazzling to see all the like all the people in the marketing side and the distribution team just firing on all cylinders and also pitching ideas and feeling creative and coming with up with innovative ways to be in dialogue with the audience like that's that's been so exciting too part of our job not just the creative part of working on the films but Mike and I love marketing like we love working with the marketing team and it's a large part of our collaboration during the day you must have felt that energy thought when you struck out with um Jarwhath and did revolution studios because you guys were do you you guys were we're doing things independently you're doing all the creative doing the marketing and disturbing it up to studios but you had that startup energy it's the best energy in the world yeah we had Tom Sharik who was fantastic at that at the distribution and marketing to Jeff Amher who was amazing at it and so I approach it from that way and see that there are studios that say hey here's the trailer love your thoughts and you give your thoughts like oh well we're releasing it tomorrow so but thank you for your thoughts um you guys have not been that way yeah we all worked on that trailer for two or three months hard core and everybody was listening to and it turned out uh obviously really well we'll see what happens in May but it's it's just been it's been fantastic the movie so fun it's so fun to watch with an audience yeah it is it is very fun to watch with an audience that's why I'm so glad that it's coming out in May theatrically I actually can't wait I can't wait to see it again with an audience yeah all right well I'm just got I'm so grateful for you guys doing this and I want to be respectful of your time so I only have one more question I'd like to end with for each of you to answer separately Pam you can go first best memory on set um it's a funny one but great I would say when I was making Garden State which I know I always refer to but it really was a magical time in my life honestly because we were like a bunch of kids making a movie in my backyard that's what it felt like but I almost got arrested because um uh Zach was worried about the pool being warm enough for the actors so we couldn't get into the location so the mine producer and I jumped the fence and it was this big that it was a big mansion in cedar I think cedar grove New Jersey or something and we jumped the fence and I was like trying to touch the pool and I'm like I can't tell if it's gonna be cold enough I mean warm enough so we stripped down to our brawn underwear and we jumped in the pool to make sure it was warm enough and the cops came into the house and they asked us they they they turned around so we could get out but they were gonna arrest us and we had to like talk our way off the ledge the owner of the house was out of wedding in like upstate New York and she vouched for us so we didn't get totally arrested but that was probably my funniest memory on that is producing by the way that is really producing that is producing Mr. Diluka you know there's so many I'm like it's really really really hard to choose but I always um get choked up when I think about one night um at the end of our marine unit on Captain Phillips you know we'd shot with the cooperation of the Navy and we had two destroyers in an aircraft carrier you know made a battle to us and basically the the Navy was our marine unit and and helped Paul produce that those sections of the movie we did the the naval ships out of the base at Norfolk in Virginia and we did the the tanker ship in Malta and we had to kind of digitally marry the two C's to make them look like the same ocean um it just happened to be where Mars kept the tanker that we needed so that section had to be in Malta however when we wrapped the Navy Paul was invited up to the bridge of the main ship to thank the military thank the Navy for helping you know us make the movie and I just happened to be there just kind of like a puppy dog tagging along with Paul um he didn't need me there but um it was just an amazing experience and the sun had set and the the the night was beautiful and the water was calm you know off the coast of Virginia and Paul was very sweet and you know he's a big guy but a but a teddy bear and a huge hearted man and real humanist thanked the Navy and then he said I'd like to hand the mic to my producer Mike Deluca and he handed me the mic and to address the military and thank them for their contribution in having that movie get made on the bridge of this destroyer you know in a beautiful clear night in in off the coast of Virginia is something I'll never forget and it was it's just the kind of thing that can only happen when you're a producer is one of one of the most wonderful memories of my producing career incredible incredible well thank you both I am so grateful I am so grateful that you're both on that wall I really really am I gotta say and hopefully for for for many many more years week we we need you guys to stay on that wall and every time a good executive moves I always tell them please don't become a producer yet we need good people to stay on that side of the wall please because the gatekeepers the gatekeepers are more important than ever and you two are are are two of the best by far so I appreciate thank you so much Todd it's a dream job we're blessed to have it and we really appreciate the being on the podcast with you you're an incredible friend and producer thank you man yeah thank you so much we're extremely grateful thanks for tuning in for this episode of the producers guide if you're a fan of this podcast make sure to rate review subscribe and share with your friends and family and if you've got any questions about producing send me a DM on X at Todd underscore Garner I want to thank my producer Steve Delamator and until next week I'm Todd Garner see you then